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irc.freenode.net). 04:07:34 -!- quantumEd has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:07:34 -!- fizzie has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:07:34 -!- fungot has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:07:34 -!- MizardX has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:37 -!- `Fuco` has joined. 04:08:37 -!- OxE6 has joined. 04:08:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:08:37 -!- fungot has joined. 04:08:37 -!- fizzie has joined. 04:08:37 -!- MizardX has joined. 04:08:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:08:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:08:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:08:37 -!- Deewiant has joined. 04:08:37 -!- quantumEd has joined. 04:09:56 <`Fuco`> Hello guys, I think you might find this interesting: http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/bf.txt :) 04:12:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:14:00 -!- OxE6 has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:04 -!- Deewiant has quit (verne.freenode.net 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has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:08:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 06:17:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:41:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:58:18 Busy beaver is a computer science problem to finding the smallest Turing Machine that outputs the most data and eventually halts. This project is an implementation of a Turing Machine in Python and C++ that runs the busy beavers. It also comes with Turing Machine’s tape visualization tool written in Perl. 06:58:51 what are the first few Busy beavers for brainfuck? 06:59:07 or similar ? if someone has done a search 07:00:27 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:00:41 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:02:22 . is the one for length 1. Happy to help. 07:02:35 what does that print?????? 07:02:58 Most likely a zero byte. 07:06:44 what's the best way to try and find busy beavers? 07:07:30 And what's the smallest brainfuck program that halts and outputs more bytes than the program code has? 07:08:07 Ilari I guess if I found the first few busy beavers I would answer that ? 07:09:24 I have a nagging feeling that the subject of a busy-beaver-like function for brainfuck was talked about here once, but I can't really seem to find any references to it. 07:10:28 wwhat's another language than brainfuck which automatic termination analysis is easier? 07:11:09 If you assume a brainfuck implementation where the cell values are bounded and wrap around, my guess for Ilari's program would be "+[.+]" -- that doesn't look like it could be simplified very much. 07:11:35 oh right it is ok for Ilaris question not to terminate 07:11:57 No, he said "that halts"; but that one does halt if the cell values wrap-around. 07:12:03 oh 07:12:28 Of course for a question that smells so theoretical, you might opt for some sort of idealized infinite-tape infinite-cell-size brainfuck. 07:13:02 Hmm... And with unbounded cells it should be more interesting. Of course one has to define what "output byte" means in that case. '.' invocation? 07:13:42 Yes, I think you should count the number of . operations there. 07:14:30 And specify deterministicalistically what , will do, or disallow it completely. 07:14:40 yeah disallow , 07:14:59 At least shortest program that loads cell under pointer by at least 5 greater than its length could be used to construct program that prints more than its length. 07:16:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:17:16 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:18:01 Well, +++[...-] will output 9 values -- the same as the program length -- and you can add one + or ., so that's an upper bound for the size of the smallest Ilari-program. 07:18:09 (See, I made up a name for it.) 07:18:35 :)))))) 07:19:40 +++[....-] is first of those two in ASCII order. 07:21:32 And the busy-beaver like function for BF is of course how many times program of n bytes can invoke . and still halt. Obiviously, its strictly increasing function. 07:21:36 - comes before . so +++[-....] would be before that. 07:22:08 maybe you can equate [-....] and [....-] 07:22:45 *it is 07:23:07 (and those programs can't contain ',') 07:25:46 is this a good strategy: enum and run every brainfuck program of the set length -- with a timeout 07:26:01 the ones that timed out you keep them in a list to inspect by hand (bcaesue they might not terminate) 07:26:39 what's the first brainfuck program that generates some output that is just too huge to deal with? 07:26:43 (that terminates) 07:26:59 I guess nobody has found it yet.... 07:30:22 any better way/improvements?? 07:32:59 i just know people have tried this for tm's, http://www.answers.com/busy%20beaver#current_6-state.2C_2-symbol_best_contender 07:34:58 lol @ lower bound functions 07:35:29 well finding the minimum vavlue for it is hard but its still silly 07:41:58 seems a bit silly i suppose. i wonder what their methods are 07:44:31 oh lower bound functions, for some reason you just meant lower bounds for specific values 07:44:46 no lower bound function 07:44:55 but any computable function is a lower bound 07:45:01 yes 07:45:45 => silly 07:47:02 I think that 100 byte BF program, lower bound for number of times it can invoke . and still halt is 11 757 312. For 1 000 byte program, same costructs give 382 748 214 098 589 572 136 663 385 960 069 669 070 838 715 433 037 453 066 072 476 832... 07:47:22 what?? 07:47:26 how did you get these numbers 07:47:42 Pick a construction and calculate from that. 07:50:24 Ilari: ah, you've been calculating busy beaver for BF? 07:53:12 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:55:30 Ilari: And what was the construction for those numbers? 07:56:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:59:16 Some structure the multiplies the number of . by 6 for each level... and +7 somewhere. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:08 or maybe not 08:04:23 Okay, looks like one can do much better. 100 byte program giving 2^2^2097152 .'s 08:04:52 Ilari you've written it? 08:09:50 Oops. It doesn't quite work out. Attempting to fix it yields only 2^2^262144... 08:11:05 what's the maximum Turing Machine complexity for which the busy beaver number is known exactly? 08:11:27 in theory, if we keep brute-forcing up through the complexities 08:11:37 we'll eventually find out what the simplest mathematical question we don't know the answer to is 08:13:10 yes 08:13:30 ais523: it's in my link, was it size 4 08:13:36 ah 08:13:49 Hmm... anybody want to figure out wheither this halts and if it does, how many times it outputs stuff: ++++++[>++++++<-]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>[.-] 08:14:03 for one tape symbol, and 4 states that is 08:14:22 oklofok: that's just a copy of the Wikipedia article in a worse interface... 08:14:49 yes, i'm not sure why that's relevant 08:15:08 i would use wikipedia, but i also check words, and answers has a simpler url. 08:15:53 Unless it got screwed up somehow: 2^2^68719476736... 08:16:31 oklofok: does your web browser not have a search box in the top-right corner that can be set to Wikipedia? 08:17:22 ais523: yes, it's set to google atm. 08:17:38 I change the setting according to what I'm looking for 08:17:41 mine even has an Esolang setting 08:18:05 (although, for some reason, to look up words I use Wikipedia but with a wikt: prefix) 08:19:36 Ilari: do you like big things? regexes and now bb... 08:20:58 There has to be even more powerful ways to pump up the numbers than exponential pumping. Perhaps not in 100-byte programs but for larger ones... 08:21:15 yes 08:21:27 there's is always a more complicated way 08:21:48 Ilari: i'm fairly sure there are better ways in <100 programs... 08:21:55 *byte 08:22:24 i mean it's not *that much* less powerful than tm's 08:23:48 it's fairly obvious how to compile BF to a TM 08:24:04 it's pretty much just a TM with a few extra restrictions 08:24:22 we're interested in the other way 08:24:28 well direction 08:24:55 yes 08:25:12 just uncall the compiler 08:29:05 fungot: You have a brainfuck interpreter, what do you think about that program Ilari asked about? 08:29:06 fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute ( base 8 fnord should a thread be given a lot of 08:29:17 doesn't work 08:29:20 because not all possible TMs are the direct translation of some BF program 08:29:41 ah, that fungot comment would have been so perfect if it stopped before the paren 08:29:42 ais523: http://sourceforge.net/ donate/ fnord to http://en.wikibooks.org/ wiki/ 2006_esolang_contestcommittee. 08:31:02 beh, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/2006_esolang_contest_committee is blank 08:31:15 no entries in the deletion log, either 08:31:51 I should count the likelihood of fungot mentioning brainfuck to see how much of a coincidence that was; as far as I know, it still doesn't use the "input" sentence at all when constructing the reply. 08:31:51 fizzie: i'll bet this would be good for anything but a k-like combinator ( fnord) fnord 08:32:03 wait what that was accidental?? 08:32:09 i though fizzie wrote that answer :D 08:32:28 "i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute" <<< this is a perfect answer :| 08:32:43 technically not true, but clearly a strong AI 08:32:59 `qdb fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute 08:33:00 ais523: hey man that's python or something even more bizarre and inexplicable. 08:33:00 No output. 08:33:11 um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again? 08:40:54 -!- Slereah has joined. 08:45:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:50:16 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Connection timed out). 08:52:04 `Fuco`, hm about that link you posted before 08:52:05 No output. 08:52:14 argh. 08:52:22 Gregor, fix this somehow ^ 08:52:34 (compare with nick list maybe?) 08:53:26 `Fuco`, anyway, you say in the comment at the start that rcfunge is broken? Yet iirc it passes those parts in mycology. So care to say how exactly those instructions are broken 08:53:26 No output. 08:54:02 `Fuco`, this interests me greatly since I'm the developer of one of the other befunge-98 interpreters (cfunge). 08:54:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:54:02 No output. 08:54:25 I suspect Deewiant will be interested too, since he wrote the befunge-98 testsuite mycology 08:55:06 You said that wrong; it is "this is relevant to my interests", not "this interests me". 08:55:24 fizzie, oh? 08:56:00 oh it seems to be "reflect on EOF/error" 08:56:01 Yes; I'm referring to http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Relevant of course. (Unless you were one of the people avoiding links to that site.) 08:56:05 iirc cfunge handles that 08:56:16 heck, it even does it for stdout 08:56:21 (it ignores SIGPIPE) 08:56:31 fizzie, I avoid it of course 08:56:44 It's not really "of course", but whatever. 08:57:31 -!- Slereah has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:57:32 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:57:33 -!- rodgort has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:58:19 `Fuco`, considering http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/rcfunge-fix.txt I'm confident cfunge will work for you 08:58:19 No output. 08:59:17 `Fuco`, be aware of that cfunge requires a *nix system. It won't work on Windows except under cygwin, and even under cygwin it requires quite a bit of work to make it work 08:59:18 No output. 09:01:52 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:02:57 !bf_txtgen Hello world! 09:03:01 err 09:03:03 !help 09:03:16 Gregor, where is egobot?........................................................ 09:03:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 09:05:35 `Fuco`, just tested it, it works under cfunge 09:05:36 No output. 09:05:46 a bit irritating there is no newline after End 09:05:53 -!- rodgort` has joined. 09:07:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:07:04 -!- FireFly has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:07:04 -!- Asztal has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:07:04 -!- Ilari has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:07:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:07:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:07:53 -!- Asztal has joined. 09:07:53 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:08:01 -!- Ilari_ has joined. 09:09:40 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:09:40 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:09:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:09:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 09:15:31 -!- Ilari__ has joined. 09:15:42 -!- Slereah has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:15:42 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:52 -!- Ilari_ has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:55 -!- Asztal has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:55 -!- Ilari has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:55 -!- FireFly has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:17:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:17:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:17:30 -!- Asztal has joined. 09:17:30 -!- Ilari has joined. 09:18:33 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:21:08 -!- Azstal has joined. 09:21:16 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:24:57 -!- Slereah has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:25:15 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:27:32 -!- Ilari has quit (Connection refused). 09:27:50 -!- Ilari__ has changed nick to Ilari. 09:30:17 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 09:33:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:37:55 -!- Azstal has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:37:55 -!- FireFly has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:38:51 -!- Azstal has joined. 09:38:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:41:51 hi ais523 09:41:59 hi 09:47:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:48:56 -!- `Fuco` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:49:47 -!- `Fuco` has joined. 09:50:40 ais523, you said mathematica was slow, but fast at some specific things iirc? 09:50:51 yes 09:52:04 ais523, slow on stuff like? 09:52:23 ais523, managing NextPrime[800!] in less than a minute doesn't seem too slow to me for example 09:52:46 AnMaster: slow on stuff that isn't a simple combination of primitives 09:52:54 NextPrime[800!] is a simple combination of primitives 09:52:58 well right 09:53:13 so any time you have to write a loop by hand, for instance (even using map or fold) 09:53:21 (or whatever they're called in Mathematica) 09:53:39 -!- facsimile has joined. 09:53:48 -!- facsimile has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:53:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:54:41 -!- quantumEd has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:55:00 -!- quantumEd has joined. 09:55:14 -!- `Fuco` has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:14 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:15 -!- cal153 has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:16 -!- pikhq has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:16 -!- Deewiant has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:16 -!- sebbu has quit (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:55:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:56:10 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:56:10 -!- oklofok has joined. 10:00:23 Map is called Map -- "Map[f, expr] or f/@expr applies f to each element on the first level in expr" -- and fold is called Fold -- "Fold[f, x, list] gives the last element of FoldList[f, x, list]. FoldList[f, x, {a, b, ...}] gives {x, f[x, a], f[f[x, a], b], ...}." 10:02:09 -!- augur has quit (Connection timed out). 10:06:50 huh I can't get parallel stuff in mathematica to work 10:06:55 it seems to block the main thread 10:07:13 so I can't evaluate something in one thread then evaluate other stuff elsewhere 10:14:06 ais523, how much of mathematica is written in mathematica? 10:14:20 considering what you said about speed I guess "almost none"? 10:14:24 none that matters 10:14:38 it's either wrappers or written in C, I think (although I don't know for certain as I haven't seen the code) 10:15:04 yet the docs claim that mathematica is so fast and great and everything 10:15:07 heh 10:15:47 http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheSoftwareEngineeringOfMathematica.html 10:17:46 basically, they claim it's fast because things like NextPrime have been so carefully optimised by hand 10:17:54 and written in a non-Mathematica language 10:18:08 they didn't really realise that if it were truly fast, they wouldn't /have/ to do that 10:19:31 heh 10:19:46 ais523, so they are saying that C is fast basically 10:20:04 well, they're saying their algos are fast too 10:20:07 which is interesting, and important 10:20:16 this is why Mathematica is so fast for doing combinations of primitive 10:20:18 *primitives 10:20:22 because the primitives are implemented very well 10:20:43 but it basically has similar speed properties to Thutu once you try to do something more complicated 10:20:49 because it's much the same language, just with a worse syntax 10:21:05 ais523, well, in theory you could optimise better by taking advantage of exactly how the primitive is used 10:21:17 yes but AFAICT it doesn't 10:21:51 like if the domain isn't all integers, but only all odd integers, you can skip checking in prime checks if a number is a multiple of 2 10:21:59 that one won't save much 10:22:13 but I suspect there are cases which saves a whole lot in theory 10:22:32 * ais523 vaguely wonders how to ask Mathematica for a list of all even primes 10:22:37 ais523, Thutu is really slow isn't it? 10:22:42 without optimising by hand and just writing [2] 10:22:53 AnMaster: yes, because it has to keep rescanning the string to find out what to do 10:23:00 it's O(n) slower than other langs, typically 10:23:12 imagine a processor that kept losing the IP and having to scan the entire program to find where it was, it's like that 10:23:17 ais523, heh. Why not ask it to find an instance that disproves the Riemann conjecture? 10:23:35 ais523, you mean it doesn't use any AST? 10:23:36 AnMaster: because the first should be relatively easily expressible in a programming language, but I'm not sure it is 10:23:46 ais523, oh and I invented a feather-like language 10:23:47 AnMaster: no, I don't mean that 10:23:50 well not as such 10:23:52 inspired by 10:23:58 but it operates on pattern matching behind the scenes 10:24:12 a feather-like tarpit? 10:24:37 AnMaster: go on, although I doubt feather-like is very easy to achieve at all without being utterly different 10:24:53 ais523, think a mathematica notebook, but every change of a definition of a function or variable below will update all prior usages of it. Of course this becomes interesting if you use it in a condition such that you only redefine it if it has it's original definition 10:25:15 in which case it would never have been redefined 10:25:15 Mathematica actually /has/ that, to some extent 10:25:20 leading to a contradiction 10:25:22 you put Interactive[] around the definition, or something like that 10:25:27 heh 10:25:30 but then you have to edit actual uses of the number 10:25:39 I don't think you can edit processed results to get a goal-seek 10:25:42 *{2} 10:25:47 oh 10:25:48 * ais523 was forgetting Mathematica syntax... 10:26:09 think: 10:26:10 x=2 10:26:19 (here I don't know mathematica syntax:) 10:26:27 if[x==2] x=4 10:26:33 probably x:=2, but I'm not sure either 10:26:33 this would lead to a paradox 10:26:38 and that would be if[x==2,x=4] 10:26:40 very similar to the grand father paradox 10:26:46 ais523, okay 10:26:54 um, it is =, not :=, I think now 10:26:57 although I'm vaguely confused 10:27:01 I said = 10:27:02 ... 10:27:03 you're not really meant to use variables in Mathematica 10:27:44 much the same way as you're not really meant to use loops in J 10:27:52 ais523, it claims to be state of the art at procedural programming. As well as offering unique enhanced advantages for functional programming. 10:27:54 although presumably they're expressable somehow (maybe a convoluted waY) 10:27:59 *way 10:27:59 (or was it the reverse?) 10:28:03 * ais523 hit caps lock by mistake 10:28:17 AnMaster: the claims have been Wolframised 10:28:19 ais523, strange effect for Ctrl-Y 10:28:27 AnMaster: no 10:28:27 ais523, yeah. Actually it claims: 10:28:38 was trying to write y shift-0 10:28:46 and hit capslock-y shift-0 because capslock is next to shift 10:28:55 "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language." 10:28:58 and as I typed that y with my right hand, the left hand was already going to shift at the time 10:29:00 which is even sillier 10:29:02 Not a-capslock because a is next to capslock? 10:29:02 than what I suggested 10:29:04 ais523, ^ 10:29:11 Deewiant: I don't think so 10:29:36 AnMaster: I don't think Mathematica really 'gets' functional programming 10:29:40 Deewiant, did you see that about bugs found in rc/funge above? Some stuff mycology didn't test. 10:29:49 I've seen an implementation of SKI in Mathematica, but it didn't define it as functions but as rewriting 10:29:57 Deewiant, See what `Fuco` said in the logs 10:30:23 -!- augur has joined. 10:30:23 -!- `Fuco` has joined. 10:30:23 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 10:30:23 -!- cal153 has joined. 10:30:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 10:30:26 mycouser tests nothing explicitly 10:30:53 Deewiant, well, does ccbi handle it? 10:30:56 If you want to see whether it handles EOF correctly, redirect /dev/null to the stdin of your interpreter. 10:31:00 Yes, of course it does. 10:31:02 I checked that cfunge handles what he described correctly 10:31:09 Deewiant, even for output? 10:31:20 Deewiant, that's quite important too you know 10:31:21 Probably not, but I'm not sure 10:32:22 * AnMaster wonders what outputting to /dev/zero does 10:32:31 nothing, IIRC 10:32:35 well, just ignores the output 10:32:42 same as /dev/null then 10:32:45 yep 10:32:51 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest84808. 10:32:58 reading from /dev/null gives EOF, doesn't it? 10:32:59 ais523, unless /dev/null is optimised for faster ignoring of output? 10:33:04 ais523, iirc yes 10:33:08 AnMaster: that makes no sense, surely? 10:33:15 I wonder how one can optimize ignorance 10:33:31 ais523, well it could. It could be done so that the data is not even sent to the kernel at all 10:33:38 would require standard library support 10:33:44 but theoretically possible 10:33:57 wouldn't that slow down all output that /wasn't/ ignored? 10:34:04 ais523, well okay. 10:34:08 but still 10:34:13 it *could* happen in *theory* 10:34:29 ais523, also not if you use quajets (or whatever the term was) 10:34:55 meh can't find that 10:35:01 <`Fuco`> AnMaster: hey, thanks for your comments, I've just came back from school 10:35:38 <`Fuco`> Yea the problem was on "reflect on failure" on I/O operations, rcfunge was unable to determine EOF 10:35:53 In general, RC/Funge is not very high quality. I don't recommend it. 10:36:01 I don't recommend it either 10:36:12 `Fuco`, Deewiant wrote ccbi and mycology, I wrote cfunge. 10:36:13 No output. 10:36:16 use our software 10:36:22 <`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) 10:36:25 ;) 10:37:07 <`Fuco`> Ok, I'll check it out 10:37:37 `Fuco`: Deewiant's a world expert on Funge interpreter correctness testing 10:37:38 No output. 10:37:45 <`Fuco`> I've revised some of my code at the boring lecture, so I'm gonna update it and test on something else ;0 10:37:56 ccbi and cfunge are likely the best interps to use, as a result of it 10:38:02 ooh found it 10:38:05 ais523, http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ 10:38:09 Deewiant: how's Language::Befunge getting on, by the way? 10:38:14 ais523, I bet it could be efficient with THAT 10:38:45 ais523, I would like to point out that efunge is rather good too 10:38:48 ais523: I guess it does a good job at validity but is still slow as hell? 10:39:01 AnMaster: heh, that's how everything works in Underload/Unlambda 10:39:08 Deewiant: that's my guess too, I just wanted it confirmed 10:39:51 I haven't been benchmarking lately (or funging at all really) but I doubt it's got enough speed to be usable for complex programs 10:39:57 anyway, that article's just inspired a crazy idea in me 10:40:00 JIT /dev/null 10:40:15 if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all 10:40:35 ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting. 10:40:56 ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done 10:41:11 except it wouldn't have called it that 10:42:19 ais523 from the discussion section: 10:42:22 Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?" 10:42:25 of that thesis 10:42:31 XD 10:44:18 -!- ais523 has quit ("Page closed"). 10:44:42 hm 10:48:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:48:53 ais523, what was the last you saw? 10:49:37 [Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:30:51 |pm] | No output. 10:49:38 [Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:31:02 |pm] | um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again? 10:49:40 from this connection 10:49:47 I can't remember what I saw on the other one 10:49:50 ais523, err that I never saw 10:49:56 ais523, oh 10:50:00 if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all 10:50:00 ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting. 10:50:00 ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done 10:50:00 except it wouldn't have called it that 10:50:00 ais523 from the discussion section: 10:50:01 Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?" 10:50:04 of that thesis 10:50:06 I saw that 10:50:06 XD 10:50:09 ais523, all the way? 10:50:18 I saw everything up to the quit on the other connection 10:50:24 as it was a quit by hand, not a lagquit 10:50:27 ais523, ah 10:51:58 also, is there something wrong with sending myself a zipped tgz that itself contains other zips and tgzs? 10:52:15 ais523, zipped tgz? 10:52:22 that is pointless 10:52:26 not really 10:52:30 ais523, what? 10:52:38 basically, there was a directory tree full of zipfiles that I needed to send to another computer 10:52:47 ais523, well sure, so tar them up 10:52:49 so I tarred the directory tree 10:52:52 or zip them with no compression 10:52:54 and put z in the tar command because why not 10:52:59 also, not all the files in it were compressed 10:53:07 ais523, well why did you put it in a .zip afterwards? 10:53:15 then, because the data was private, I put it in a passworded zip 10:53:18 oh 10:53:22 to prevent it getting snooped on over the email 10:53:29 ais523, why not gpg it? 10:53:36 (I'm not that careful with my own stuff normally, but for other people's sensitive data, I'm not sending it over email unencrypted) 10:53:47 ais523, because zip encryption is easy to break iirc 10:54:02 we are talking a lot less time than gpg here unless I misremember 10:54:09 I picked a very long password so as to make life harder when breaking it 10:54:27 although, none of this is meant to stand up to a concerted attack, someone with the resources to do that could just hack the server here, or my login on it 10:54:36 ais523, well iirc it used to use a easy to break encryption algorightm 10:54:41 algorithm* 10:54:54 though google suggests winzip uses 128-bit AES at least 10:55:02 can't find anything about zip standard 10:55:57 and 7zip offers either the old easy to break one and 256-bit AES 10:56:37 I used the command-line "zip" on Fedora 10:56:42 # cryptsetup status /dev/mapper/root 10:56:42 /dev/mapper//dev/mapper/root is active: 10:56:43 um, CentOS 10:56:47 [correct output listed] 10:56:53 (grr, I get Red Hat derivatives confused mentally...) 10:56:54 well a bit funny that path 10:57:02 no idea what version it is 10:57:27 ais523, bad luck: 10:57:33 -e Encrypt the contents of the zip archive using a password which is entered on the terminal in response to a prompt (this will not be echoed; 10:57:33 if standard error is not a tty, zip will exit with an error). The password prompt is repeated to save the user from typing errors. Note 10:57:33 that this encrypts with standard pkzip encryption which is considered weak. 10:57:56 ais523, congrats, if anyone wanted to read that they could easily have done 10:58:09 oh and: why not just scp it 10:58:14 would have been way more secure 10:58:17 and easier to do 10:58:22 AnMaster: to a computer that wasn't network-connected at the time? 10:58:33 ais523, fair enough, still gpg is required 10:58:36 that has port 22 firewalled, and isn't running sshd as it is? 10:58:44 wait, it is running sshd 10:58:48 but it has port 22 firewalled anyway 10:59:05 gpg wouldn't really work without a public key to encrypt with 10:59:06 ais523, because the pkzip style encryption is so easy to break it takes seconds iirc 10:59:16 ais523, use your own public key duh? 10:59:24 AnMaster: I don't know it off by heart 10:59:37 ais523, also for gpg: 10:59:39 http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ 10:59:39 anyway, I think it's pretty unlikely anyone was intercepting the email in transit anyway 10:59:40 err 10:59:43 copy-fail 10:59:46 -c, --symmetric encryption only with symmetric cipher 10:59:49 there we go 11:00:27 ais523, just pointing out your protection wasn't really helpful at all 11:02:41 anyway, the fsck bug seems to have fixed itself 11:02:49 at least, my computer fscked itself just fine an hour or so ago 11:04:34 -!- `Fuco` has changed nick to Fuco. 11:05:23 ah 11:05:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:10:25 ais523, have you ever run into issues with _FILE_OFFSET_BITS? 11:10:32 since I know you are still on 32-bit 11:10:40 I don't think so 11:11:51 ais523, ah I guess you seldom use files larger than 2 GB? 11:12:03 yep, pretty rare 11:12:13 the only time I'd use a file that big would be a full backup of everything 11:12:23 and even then, I'm not sure if it would be that large 11:12:26 well, I just read about the issues it caused, and I got a feeling that can best be described as nostalgia 11:12:42 I haven't used 32-bit for ages 11:14:11 hmm, seems that my last nonincremental backup was february 2008, and it's less than 1 GB 11:14:25 probably a symptom of me growing up with floppy disks 11:16:36 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:17:17 ais523, yeah I have over 200 GB in my last non-incremental backup 11:17:26 which was this summer 11:17:56 ouch 11:18:03 how do you store that much? it wouldn't even fit on a USB stick 11:18:20 and you'd need too many CDs to burn it on to be practical 11:18:45 ais523, currently on external disk 11:18:48 I used to use tape 11:19:51 ais523, oh btw that is just the desktop, the laptop adds another 70 GB or so by now 11:19:57 well not it's base 11:20:03 since I bought it this summer 11:20:08 I tend to not back up generated files unless they're small 11:20:12 s/this/the last/ 11:20:28 ais523, well indeed. I don't backup svn checkouts and such 11:20:30 e.g. I back up the .rg (original) and .mid (small) versions of my music 11:20:36 but not the .ogg versions 11:20:39 ais523, with that it would easily add another 100 GB 11:20:47 ais523, I have no time to sort through that sort of stuff 11:21:17 ais523, bbiab 11:31:50 back 11:32:31 Fuco, so which did you choose? cfunge or ccbi? 11:33:06 <`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) <-- a bit hard to believe considering that program. You must have spent the entire time on befunge since then 11:33:19 7 hours 11:33:40 Fuco, hah 11:33:53 It's not that hard when you think about how it works 11:34:17 it's basically pushdown automata with a lot of convenient methods (like variables etc) 11:34:19 there are some non-idiomatic parts in there indeed 11:34:29 first: befunge98 is not .txt but .b98 11:34:44 Fuco, it is self modifying 11:34:45 but then some browsers won't open it ;) 11:34:54 Fuco, I wget-ed it anyway 11:34:59 heh 11:35:23 Fuco, btw you are aware of the "print gnirts" idiom: >:#,_ right? 11:35:55 just you never used it as far as I could find with a quick grep 11:35:59 fungot style 11:36:00 quantumEd: it turns out he did send something, a classical fnord photo is copyrighted by the photographer and so on 11:36:12 nope as I said I've only found it sunday so ;) 11:36:20 fungot, oh btw fungot is written in befunge 98 11:36:21 AnMaster: although i'm not quite sure on how to blend them fnord, they would have 11:36:22 ^source 11:36:23 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 11:36:32 Fuco, it runs on cfunge 11:37:03 Fuco, well >:#,_ is a useful idiom to know 11:37:35 _,#! #:< in the other direction 11:37:56 (and there are vertical versions of course) 11:38:02 Deewiant, is there any version based on x? 11:38:08 I think it might be possible 11:38:14 Or >:#,_# of course, although it won't deal correctly with a null string 11:38:28 Deewiant, how would that ever exit? 11:38:41 oh wait 11:38:48 from that side 11:38:50 why's there the : 11:38:59 Fuco, duplicate item on top of stack 11:39:04 since the _ consumes it 11:39:08 right 11:39:12 >:#,_v# is of course the correct-with-null version 11:39:17 Fuco, so if we decide to print it we still need it around 11:39:23 So it will print null terminated string 11:39:28 Fuco, yes 11:39:39 Fuco, which is what a 0"gnirts" is 11:39:44 think it is mentioned in the spec 11:39:45 Except I managed to backspace over the : at the end but anyway 11:39:48 yea 11:40:00 Fuco, spec is at http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html 11:40:16 OH i see, so i dont have to use number k, 11:40:19 clever ;) 11:40:43 Fuco, only assuming you can trust there to be no zero bytes in that string 11:41:04 plus k has it's own host of issues 11:41:14 If you tag your strings with the length then 1-k, works 11:41:30 Except for strings of length 1 11:41:36 heh 11:41:39 yeah 11:41:44 I'm sure I'd figure that out in some time ;D 11:42:09 Fuco, also I believe ccbi still doesn't handle nested k in a sensible way 11:42:23 cfunge at least tries to handle it in some sort of not totally confused way 11:42:24 Your definition of sensible might be different from mine :-P 11:42:33 Deewiant, well yes 11:42:38 And I guess it was, last time we discussed it 11:42:46 nested k is by definition not sensible 11:42:53 btw that bot is WTF, it will take some time just to read it 11:43:06 Deewiant, heck I don't even remember what exactly cfunge does XD 11:43:17 Fuco, I don't think I ever read the whole thing 11:43:32 Fuco, oh and fizzie in here wrote it 11:43:50 Fuco, there are some docs at the end 11:43:57 yea 11:43:59 mostly about how space is used 11:44:07 fizzie, didn't you have an annotated version 11:44:27 fizzie, some page where you displayed info on hover? 11:44:33 or do I completely misremember? 11:45:46 It's crazy that people actually write socket libraries for stuff like this 11:46:02 Fuco, oh? well there is a fingerprint for it 11:46:03 SOCK 11:46:09 There's not much to write, the only socket fingerprint is pretty much a C binding 11:46:12 cfunge, ccbi and rcfunge at least implement it 11:46:19 well, yea 11:46:21 right :D 11:46:24 and yeah, it is a bit of C binding 11:47:35 Deewiant, "a bit" seems to equal "around 340 lines" 11:47:44 according to a LOC tool 11:47:50 (at least for cfunge) 11:47:58 of course quite a bit of that is metadata 11:48:29 276 sock.d 11:48:31 (wc -l) 11:48:32 (as in, generated code that loads the fingerprint, lines like: int foo; or such) 11:48:49 Deewiant, you have the advantage of not having to care as much about memory management 11:48:55 thanks to using a higher level language 11:49:13 Deewiant, oh and you don't have 10 lines of includes at the top 11:50:05 You're right: it has three imports, one of which is a workaround for a bug 12:02:53 AnMaster: Yes, I had one. 12:02:58 AnMaster: But it was rather incomplete. 12:03:04 fizzie, lost it? 12:03:21 I'm sure it's still somewhere. 12:03:39 http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html 12:03:39 fizzie: " echo stop killing me 12:03:52 fungot: I'm not killing you. 12:03:52 fizzie: but some of their income from copies of gnu software. 12:04:18 The highlights are in the wrong place in that file, in fact. 12:04:36 Because I had a separate highlight description file, and raw source code file, and apparently those have gotten out of sync. 12:05:00 I think it's because I've added a few lines of initialization in there. 12:05:27 And the highlighting stops pretty early on in the file. 12:05:38 Let's see, the colours had some sort of meaning too. 12:06:06 * AnMaster notes it looks all like light blue on his laptop screen unless he look at it from an extreme angle 12:06:25 Green blocks are the big high-level descriptions, red ones are error conditions/messages, blue and yellow... uh, mean something else. As does grey. 12:06:50 Oh, all grey ones are part of a single block called "Code-flow paths..." 12:07:18 fizzie, why is there a vertical row of dots there 12:07:46 It's a sort of highlight that's in the original source file. 12:07:48 fizzie, near the end of the annotated area 12:07:52 fizzie, what does it mean? 12:07:57 The two columns right of it are reserved for code-flow. 12:08:03 It's just a marker that you're not supposed to write past it. 12:08:13 fizzie, shouldn't it go all the way up? 12:08:19 ais523, also why not update it? 12:08:24 Sure, in theory, but I think I got bored. 12:08:34 AnMaster: context? 12:08:42 err 12:08:43 fizzie, ^ 12:08:44 I meant 12:08:48 ais523, mistab 12:08:51 somehow 12:08:54 ah 12:08:56 that's quite a mistab 12:09:03 The highlights are generated from the http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt file automatically with some javascript. 12:09:03 fizzie: so that's a scheme48 bug? :) htmlprag? 12:09:05 is your tab-complete set to me by default? 12:09:05 ais523, a and f are close 12:09:12 I'm the first here in alphabetical order, so it's plausible 12:09:22 ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing 12:09:26 (also, not particularly close in QWERTY; do you use a substantially different layout?) 12:09:36 ais523, well no, tab alone just lists the names 12:09:44 ais523, "same half" 12:09:47 and same row 12:09:51 and yes qwerty 12:09:51 that isn't close 12:10:00 ais523, closer than a and o are? 12:10:02 no? 12:10:51 yes, it is closer than a and o are 12:10:54 but that's still not close 12:11:05 ais523, what about a and d? 12:11:29 too far to typo, but close enough that it's not that much of a stretch for the finger 12:11:33 still a bit annoying, though 12:11:43 like trying to press ' when your right hand's on hjkl for a vi-style control system 12:12:16 also, to do with the way hands work, g is effectively closer to j than a is to d or l is to ' 12:12:21 even though it's the same physical distance 12:12:30 (and 4 is pretty close to d) 12:12:52 ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing 12:13:17 I don't tyoe quite correct when doing so, at least if I press enter before piof reading (like here) 12:13:21 * AnMaster looks 12:13:30 well, I didn't do too bad it seems 12:13:33 ah, I only use one screen 12:13:47 I think some people are more productive with multiple screens as it helps stop them getting distracted 12:13:51 ais523, ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing 12:13:52 and I'm more productive with one screen for the same reason 12:13:54 you missed that? 12:14:00 no, I didn't 12:14:05 in fact I even commented against it 12:14:23 where? 12:14:31 about five lines ago 12:14:34 of mine 12:14:38 ais523, no that was the second time I mentioned it 12:14:39 ... 12:14:52 ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing != ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing 12:15:19 (ehird logread: I've started using xmonad again for some things; once I found out it supported multiple desktops, it fits my workflow much better, as I can ensure there's exactly two windows on a desktop when I want to tile two) 12:15:27 ais523, and not just multiple screens, in fact they are two computers that are connected using synergy 12:15:39 in fact I was reading something on the other one while typing 12:15:45 whoa, multitasking 12:16:14 ais523, you use virtual desktops? 12:16:16 huh 12:16:19 I thought no one did 12:16:28 AnMaster: yes, I do 12:16:35 although, only one at the moment 12:16:44 two is common when I'm working on a programming project (one for it, one for everything else) 12:16:46 ais523, I always get annoyed when I have to switch between them 12:16:59 in xmonad, I more commonly use 6 or 7 or so because I don't have a taskbar 12:17:08 ais523, for programming I just make sure to use a large enough monitor 12:17:10 so it's a different style of working 12:17:31 btw I have considered getting another monitor 12:17:41 thus having a dual monitor setup + the laptop 12:17:54 why is switching desktops hard? 12:18:00 control-alt-arrow 12:18:06 it's actually easier to press than alt-tab 12:18:21 I disagree 12:18:34 (and control-shift-alt-arrow moves the current window with you, although that's a bit harder to press than alt-tab) 12:18:34 Alt-tab requires two fingers from one hand 12:18:41 yes, first and fourth 12:18:44 err 12:18:49 ais523, no 12:18:50 and it's a stretch for the fourth 12:18:54 ais523, first and second 12:18:58 AnMaster: which fingers do you use? 12:19:01 ouch 12:19:03 fits just perfect 12:19:08 how do you avoid spraining your wrist 12:19:19 Control-alt-arrow requires three fingers, and either from two hands or with a very inconvenient single hand 12:19:25 also, moving your index finger from f to tab is a very long way 12:19:26 ais523, well if I don't want to move sideways I just use first and forth 12:19:49 ais523, I move all over the place for emacs anyway 12:19:53 Deewiant: two hands, but I don't have to move them very far 12:19:55 AnMaster: so do I 12:20:02 alt-tab isn't that inconvenient 12:20:22 ais523, anyway I don't actually use first and second 12:20:28 just noticed it fits perfect 12:20:30 oh, what do you use? 12:20:39 first and third or first and fourth 12:20:40 Alt-tab doesn't necessarily require any hand movement at all 12:20:41 works just fine 12:20:45 ... 12:20:53 Arrow keys are inconvenient unless you have a hand there already 12:20:56 ais523, as for far stretch, yes I need to curl up the finger a bit to not overshoot 12:20:57 Deewiant: agreed, but it does require a lot of finger movement 12:21:11 and I'm on a laptop, so the arrow keys are below return 12:21:11 ais523, so no not a far stretch, rather I would like it further away 12:21:17 rather than to the right and below 12:21:17 Not really, in my opinion 12:21:21 that probably makes a big difference 12:21:29 ais523, oh and I'm on a full sized keyboard 12:21:31 I often press alt-tab using my thumb and pinkie 12:21:36 ais523, as I said: big hands 12:21:50 * AnMaster should take a photo of his hand on his keyboard 12:21:51 maybe 12:21:58 if I can find the camera without too much searching 12:22:05 Of course, a laptop keyboard makes things easier 12:22:10 err, nop 12:22:13 Quite a bit, in fact 12:22:21 Deewiant, indeed. just checked on my thinkpad 12:22:46 but no one uses a laptop keyboard if he/she can avoid it 12:22:57 I do 12:23:05 because I use laptops so much, I'm used to this one 12:23:10 desktop keyboards tend to be a bit large for me now 12:24:16 ais523, heh. I find even a full sized keyboard cramped 12:40:27 ais523, how tall are you? 12:40:38 metric units please 12:41:20 about 6 feet; 1 foot is 12 inches, 1 metre is 39 inches, so that translates to about 1.85 metres 12:41:28 that's only approximate, though, I haven't measured my height in a while 12:41:37 ais523, hm. I'm 1.89 12:41:43 so you aren't too short 12:41:54 yet you said Alt-tab was a far stretch 12:41:58 on a laptop keyboard even 12:42:05 from where my fingers normally are 12:42:09 your hands must be fairly small compared to the rest of your body 12:42:15 it isn't that far in an absolute manner 12:42:22 in fact, I compress my hand to do the reaching 12:42:28 ais523, well what about the fingers 1 and 5? 12:42:31 it's just a lot of movement from the normal locations of my hands 12:42:32 that should work well 12:42:35 that would be even more 12:42:39 my little finger's normally over shift 12:42:47 which is what I actually use when I'm not thinking about it (just noticed) 12:43:05 and the position of my hand is such that I can move it down to control without moving my hand 12:43:08 but not up to caps lock 12:43:11 ais523, I would hate having my little finger curled up like that 12:43:17 that isn't curled up 12:43:19 that's straight 12:43:27 very short finger? 12:43:32 which explains why I can't reach tab with it at all without moving my hand 12:43:34 no, very low hands 12:43:35 how do you reach the top rows easily 12:43:41 ais523, well okay 12:43:42 middle finger reaches them fine 12:43:47 seems irritating still 12:43:54 although I have to stretch for escape or the F-keys, I hardly use them 12:43:58 ais523, what about typing q? or 1? 12:43:59 (Emacs user, not vi user...) 12:44:07 ais523, everyone has to stretch for f-keys 12:44:11 q is where my fourth finger naturally reaches 12:44:12 because of the space 12:44:19 1 I press by moving my third finger to the left, it's longer 12:44:20 between the normal keys 12:44:22 and f-keys 12:44:25 AnMaster: no space on this keyboard between F1 and 1 12:44:32 ais523, well okay laptop 12:44:33 right 12:44:46 ais523, what about reaching esc? On my laptop it is above F1 12:44:53 it's to the left of F1 here, above ` 12:45:08 (and ` is a massive stretch with the third finger for me; for ESC I have to move my hand) 12:45:15 note that these are my normal typing hand positions 12:45:21 for, say, playing roguelikes, they'd be different 12:45:31 ais523, on my desktop F10 is above `, and on my laptop the space between F12 and Delete (+ part of Delete) is above ` 12:45:37 (the left hand would be higher so it could hit control /and/ escape a lot; the right hand would be over hjkl 12:45:50 AnMaster: ` is at the other end of your keyboard, then 12:45:52 it's above tab for me 12:46:30 ais523, 78990+ "dead key for é" "backspace 12:46:50 and the dead key for e when shifted turns into dead key for è and ` 12:46:58 "for é" 12:47:01 `1234567890-= backspace 12:47:02 No output. 12:47:03 for me 12:47:23 to type international characters I use alt-gr plus punctuation 12:47:41 e.g. alt-gr-; is dead key for acute 12:48:05 ais523, §1234 12:48:23 when shifted: ½!"#¤%&/()=?` 12:48:34 shifted: ¬!"£$%^&*()_+ 12:48:35 and shift-backspace 12:48:42 when altgr: ¶¡@£$€¥{[]}\± 12:48:57 when alt-gr+shift: ¾¹²³¼¢⅝÷«»°¿¬ 12:49:14 |¹²³€½¾{[]}\ (dead key for cedilla) (alt-gr-backspace) 12:49:22 altgr-shift does the same as shift for me 12:49:30 huh 12:49:48 ais523, also alt-gr backspace is silly 12:49:55 I excluded that one 12:50:00 due to it not being of interest 12:50:13 why is it silly? 12:50:21 on Windows, it'd be mapped to control-alt-backspace and kill your X server 12:50:26 ais523, it has no special meaning? 12:50:32 ais523, wait what? 12:50:32 because Windows maps altgr to control-alt for some utterly unknown reason 12:50:46 OTOH, on Windows you normally don't have an X server running 12:50:50 ais523, no it doesn't, because then stuff like @ wouldn't work 12:51:02 or are you saying that Ctrl-Alt-2 on windows is @? 12:51:04 can you do it with control-alt instead? 12:51:09 s/ / / 12:51:23 certainly, control-alt-4 is €, control-alt-e is é 12:51:27 ais523, I never tried and I don't have windows handy atm 12:51:32 but I can't be bothered booting the Windows system here to test 12:51:40 ais523, altgr-4 is $ here 12:51:41 (that's on a UK keyboard) 12:51:47 AnMaster: heh 12:51:49 for € you want altgr-e 12:51:59 altgr-shift-e is ¢ 12:52:01 whatever that is 12:52:13 ais523, altgr-3 is £ 12:52:22 shift-3 here 12:52:30 ais523, btw @, £ and $ are marked on the keyboard 12:52:32 and ¢ is "cent", which is 1/100 of a dollar 12:52:40 the lower part of it 12:52:40 in the US, and several other countries which have currencies called dollars 12:52:47 so are {[]} 12:52:51 again in the lower part 12:52:56 oh and \ 12:53:05 also, it's the mingle operator in Princeton syntax for INTERCAL 12:53:11 which if you're not American, is possibly more important 12:53:15 (but probably not) 12:53:29 ais523, probably not what? 12:53:43 ¢ being more important as an INTERCAL operator than as a currency 12:54:34 ouchm I think I have an electric chair. Static such. gave a small spark when touching a metal part 12:54:46 s/m// 12:54:57 ais523, same importance for me 12:55:14 AnMaster: it's not your chair, it's you 12:55:19 you became statically charged 12:55:26 and the shock when you touched metal was you discharging all at once 12:55:40 normally you become charged due to walking around a lot on certain sorts of carpet 12:55:47 or in buildings with a certain architecture 12:56:03 and you don't notice on rainy days because you discharge slowly through humidity in the air 12:56:51 hm 12:57:30 ais523, I can reproduce the effect with a bit of metal plus some isolation to hold it in after rolling the chair around on the floor a bit 12:57:43 the bit of metal was placed on the wooden desk while doing this 12:57:56 ah, it's your chair + the carpet that's doing it, then? 12:58:06 ais523, no carpet. plastic flooring 12:58:14 ooh, plastic's known to cause the problem 12:58:19 well, certain types 12:58:30 btw, you should discharge yourself before working on electronics (e.g. the inside of computers) 12:58:30 ais523, wait no, it is actually linoleum in this room 12:58:41 ais523, I use a static wrist thingy 12:58:42 duh 12:58:46 the amount of electricity that a human can feel when it discharges is a lot more than the amount needed to destroy a computer 12:58:52 but good, I use a static wrist thingy too 12:59:01 ais523, and I take off any fleece clothing 12:59:07 which is probably even more important 12:59:34 ais523, yes or no? 12:59:42 could be, yes 12:59:42 fleece gets static very easily 12:59:47 fleeces are made of plastic IIRC 12:59:57 ais523, and it keeps you wonderfully warm 13:00:04 very important here in Sweden 13:00:27 ais523, what about the linoleum though? 13:00:34 that shouldn't cause static should it 13:00:58 it's an interaction of two things that causes static 13:01:04 oh btw as far as I can tell the static metal part is isolated by plastic from the wheels, Well the wheels are plastic *shrug*. 13:01:09 e.g. rubber soles of shoes and whatever carpets are made of 13:01:31 plastic wheels + linoleum floor might be a combination that charges up 13:01:45 I'm not sure if there's a general rule to determine which combinations charge, and which don't 13:01:52 ais523, current shoes are made of sheep skin with the woolly(sp?) bit turned inside for warmth 13:02:15 it's not the material of the shoes generally that matters 13:02:18 but the material of the soles 13:02:26 static charging's caused by friction 13:02:32 and which materials are involved in the frictioning 13:02:39 ais523, hm. unknown type of rubber like plastic I'd say 13:02:56 fairly stiff since it is the only think that provides stiffness to this chair 13:03:11 however I was rolling around by holding on to the wooden table 13:03:34 and then propelling myself around by 13:03:51 s/table/desk/ 13:04:37 ehird: you know how you keep asking about garbage collection for windows? I think I've realised how I do it 13:04:49 I get into the habit of switching windows by alt-tabbing at random, and if I hit one I'm not using, I just close it 13:05:18 ais523, saving stuff in it? 13:05:25 ais523, also how many windows do you have? 13:05:31 5 at the moment 13:05:35 I have three to four generally 13:05:38 AnMaster: doing whatever's appropriate to close it, which may involve saving first 13:05:42 well maybe 5 13:05:45 two permanent: 13:05:47 atm I have IRC, email, web browser 13:05:49 terminal and editor 13:05:49 konsole and irc client 13:05:59 the first three are for general Internet interaction; the last two are my work 13:06:07 as in, job 13:06:43 ais523, terminal is for everything 13:07:06 yes, I'm saying what the terminal has atm 13:07:10 it actually has three tabs open 13:07:16 one for work, the other two browsing NetHack's source code 13:07:26 ais523, for email, did I ever mention I only recently switched from pine? 13:07:36 I'm not sure 13:07:38 but I didn't know that 13:07:47 what are you using now? mail(1)? 13:07:52 ais523, alpine 13:07:53 :P 13:07:59 I use Evolution 13:08:02 which is like pine, only more maintained 13:08:10 partly to annoy people who don't like Evolution, but mostly because I like the way its UI works 13:08:11 ais523, I used thunderbrid at times. 13:08:15 Thunderbird annoys me 13:08:22 ais523, less so than evolution 13:08:26 it's just slightly too obnoxious 13:08:32 ais523, evolution yes 13:08:42 ais523, evolution reminds me of outlook 13:08:45 lots of things you can click on by mistake, mail notifications that say the text of the email onscreen so you have to turn them off, et 13:08:47 *etc 13:09:04 AnMaster: Evolution does similar things to outlook 13:09:10 ais523, yes I don't like that 13:09:12 but at least the UI mostly doesn't get in the way 13:09:33 (Outlook's UI is pretty bad, with lots of top-of-page popups telling you all sorts of things you didn't care about) 13:09:42 ais523, and evolution fails to sync against anything but palm units 13:09:56 my mobile phone over bluetooth? Just forget it 13:09:57 it syncs against IMAP and POP3 just fine 13:10:05 I don't have a mobile, so I don't care about syncing with those 13:10:08 ais523, I meant: embedded devices 13:10:11 for calender and such 13:10:21 ais523, only landline? 13:10:34 my family has a landline, I use that on occasion 13:10:37 also, sometimes use payphones 13:10:53 ais523, you live at home? I somehow thought you didn't 13:11:03 what with not having internet 13:11:10 s/at home/at parents/ 13:11:28 yes, I live with my parents; that house doesn't have Internet 13:11:29 and I don't want it there 13:11:37 ais523, huh? 13:11:41 and they don't want it? 13:15:37 ais523, btw is Wolfram american? 13:15:53 I think he's technically British but has lived in the US most of his life 13:15:57 Wikipedia probably has more details 13:16:09 ais523, mathematica used "color" somewhere I'm sure 13:16:22 oh, even I often write in US English when programming 13:16:26 and I'm Britihs 13:16:29 *British 13:16:31 everyone else uses it 13:16:41 so writing "colour" probably wouldn't be compatible with libraries 13:16:48 and would annoy Americans using my programs 13:18:38 ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libalut.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored. 13:18:39 hm 13:18:41 strange 13:18:43 I wonder why 13:19:14 oh found it 13:19:19 32 vs. 64 13:23:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:25:30 -!- OxE6 has quit ("going study. exam in 2hrs"). 13:32:42 -!- clog has joined. 13:32:42 -!- clog has joined. 13:37:44 [23:27:21] eek 13:37:49 For the logs, of course 13:37:55 ah. 13:37:56 Because it's such an important expression 13:38:32 very cyclic reference, that 13:38:36 * clog has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:38:36 eek 13:38:36 * clog (n=nef@bespin.org) has joined #esoteric 13:38:41 it doesn't make sense without context 13:39:29 well nothing does, really 13:41:13 This does. 13:41:38 (Ha, it is a lie.) 13:42:13 it cannot be a lie, it isn't a cake 13:42:52 Yes, I guess it does follow that if all cakes are a lie, then all lies are a cake. 13:42:57 (That might also be a lie.) 13:43:17 * oerjan eats fizzie's lie. tastes of cinnamon. 13:43:42 Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg 13:44:32 (Me and my wife both graduated this autumn -- I'm sure I've mentioned at least the case of myself -- and we felt somehow obligated to arrange something quasi-fancy mostly for the relatives.) 13:44:45 -!- cal153 has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:44:45 -!- pikhq has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:44:45 -!- Fuco has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:44:46 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:44:46 -!- Guest84808 has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:45:16 are those flowers and stuff marsipan? 13:45:26 -!- Guest84808 has joined. 13:45:26 -!- Fuco has joined. 13:45:26 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 13:45:26 -!- cal153 has joined. 13:45:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:45:36 Not exactly, but they are some sort of mostly sugar-based edible building material. 13:45:55 *z 13:46:12 Well, technically edible. There were also few bits of metal wire in the longer sections of leaves to provide some structural integrity, so you had to be a bit careful there. 13:46:47 wait, you're _married_? is that legal in this channel? 13:47:20 Oh, I'm sure there must be some other instances of that class here too. I mean, statistically speaking. In a group of this many people. 13:47:31 *geeks 13:48:10 Besides, does it still count if my wife is a programmer (well, "software engineer") by vocation? 13:48:25 not that geeks don't marry, i know a couple who met through the local roleplaying club. still go alternate weeks while the other babysits, afaik 13:49:45 Due to some ancient HR/payroll software system field width restrictions, her salary receipts say "SOFTWARE ENGINE"; I think that's hilarious. 13:49:57 :D 13:52:23 well if you speak of human resources, software engines seem but a small step 14:05:01 oerjan, iwc 14:05:20 read it hours ago 14:06:36 Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg <-- does the shape have any meaning 14:06:43 oerjan, remind me which theme it was? 14:06:48 hours ago too 14:06:51 mythbusters/martians 14:07:08 with a hint of steve&terry 14:07:55 * oerjan found the punchline to d&d pretty funny 14:08:08 oerjan, yeah it was 14:08:16 AnMaster: Not really, no. We did think a bit of using the traditional headgear of the university students (there's a very specific type of hat) as the cake motif, but decided it would be too tacky. 14:08:32 fizzie, same hat as in Sweden? 14:08:39 oh wait, that isn't for university 14:08:44 or rather 14:08:48 it is for starting at university iirc 14:09:18 downloading 500 mb at 300 K/s is painfully slow 14:09:27 at least if you want to get it done quickly 14:09:28 AnMaster: Yes, well, I don't know about your hats; here the "university of technology" students get the hat at the end of their first study year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFteknolog.jpg 14:09:52 "In Finland and Sweden students of technology wear a special kind of cap. It is similar to the cap given to all high-school graduates in both countries, but features a tuft and different kind of cockade showing what university the bearer is attending. " 14:10:11 fizzie, your hat looks like you our plus a lot of extra stuff 14:10:15 yeah 14:10:17 exactly 14:10:25 fizzie, huh I had no clue about this 14:10:35 useful to know I guess 14:10:54 There's no specific graduation hat from university here. And putting a Ph.D. doctoral hat there might have been a bit premature. :p 14:11:11 fizzie, well I know about that, and it happens later yes 14:11:17 fizzie, what do professors get I wonder 14:11:35 A pink tiara. (Okay, not really, but they should.) 14:11:40 fizzie, XD 14:12:20 Here's one of our professors: the man with the crown: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5926_large.html 14:12:38 fizzie, that is not standard clothes I think 14:12:41 what the hell was that 14:12:44 It's from the combined CS-and-related-departments christmas party, so, no. 14:12:58 fizzie, lots of alcohol? 14:13:04 Yes. 14:13:10 and who is that figure on the t-shirt? 14:13:13 That performance was the traditional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Boys%27_Singing_Procession 14:13:20 a maoist king 14:14:01 oerjan, yeah I was suspecting something like that but I just couldn't believe my eyes 14:14:15 "The Finnish version contains non-biblical elements such as king Herod vanquishing the "king of the Moors", and a short song of praise to tsar Alexander." The black man is the king of the Moors, I think. 14:14:16 fizzie, what's up with the guy next to him 14:15:00 At least I remember Herod (our professor) vanquishing him. Note the toy light saber; it had lights when activated, and made the proper noise. 14:15:34 It was indeed a rather drink-rich party, or so I hear: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5978_large.html 14:15:59 (I slipped out after the dinner part, we had to prepare for that cake-party of ours, which was the very next day.) 14:16:54 You may also take a look at a short summary from the lecture slides given at the beginning of the occasion: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-jukka-patynen/content/20091127_1MG_1637_large.html 14:16:55 fizzie, how many people 14:16:57 for those boxes 14:17:13 Rather many, I think. Over one hundred, probably less than three. 14:17:40 what is the copy machine thing about? 14:18:02 fizzie, wait so you say in the interval (100,3)? 14:18:03 The traditional office christmas party "meme" is to take copies of your... uh, nether regions, with the office copy machine. 14:18:15 (100, 300). I abbreviated a bit. 14:26:41 -!- Guest84808 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:30:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. 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Ook ook. 19:34:47 haha 19:35:47 alas, it seems not to be turing complete 19:38:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:41:26 Ook! 19:42:34 pikhq: looking. 19:42:54 (I have a friend who's a linguistics grad student; I know this stuff!) 19:43:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:44:15 I'm not sure he's right about what "recursion" means. I would expect him to, seeing that he's a software engineer. 19:48:22 -!- mycroftiv has quit ("leaving"). 19:54:05 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 19:58:22 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:01:22 -!- OxE6 has quit. 20:08:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:26:11 -!- augur has joined. 21:02:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit ("Leaving"). 21:04:16 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:12:24 -!- mu has joined. 21:12:30 -!- mu has changed nick to OxE6. 21:35:07 -!- augur has joined. 22:27:03 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:45:04 pikhq: monkeys do not have language. 22:45:32 the person writing the article doesnt even know what hes talking about 22:46:50 oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete. 22:46:51 not that you're here, or anything, but. 23:00:04 -!- madbr has quit ("Radiateur"). 23:04:43 It seems obvious that monkeys communicate. This report indicates that this one monkey language seems to have a suffix. 23:04:59 communication is not language, however. 23:05:08 What is language? 23:05:20 at least not in the sense that human language is language. 23:05:31 if we construe the meaning of language broadly enough, then almost anything is language 23:05:36 it reduces to communication 23:05:44 hell, it might even reduce to semiotics 23:05:52 * uorygl shrugs. 23:06:06 but language, that is, the kind humans use, is a very different sort of beast 23:06:54 firstly it employs a wealth of combinatorics to produce expressions 23:07:17 second, it has a rather extensive, (mostly) arbitrary symbolic representational system 23:07:29 * uorygl nods. 23:07:51 These monkeys don't have that at all; they have about five morphemes. 23:08:04 they dont even have morphemes, right 23:08:24 because morphemes are particular units that encode meaning bundles of some sort 23:08:31 monkeys dont even have that 23:09:02 they have calls that induce other behavior in other monkeys, but they're not encoding symbolic meaning 23:09:40 when a monkey gives off a "snake" call or an "eagle" call, its a trigger that induces other monkeys to look for the snake or eagle and then recapitulate the call or ignore it 23:09:51 and the recapitulation induces avoidance behavior in the troop 23:10:09 the call does not induce monkeys to sit around pondering the nature of snakes, etc. 23:11:06 it probably COULDNT even do that; it not meaningful, its purely instinctual. 23:11:30 * uorygl nods. 23:11:35 its unlikely that monkeys have anything remotely like a thought "oh there's an eagle" when they hear the call 23:11:41 they just go into a reactive mode of being 23:12:11 * uorygl ponders whether his goal of teaching language to animals is doomed. 23:12:16 it is. 23:12:17 (It totally is, ain't it.) 23:12:21 yes 23:12:21 sorry 23:12:32 animals, not even CHIMPS, have a chance of learning language. 23:12:36 * uorygl ponders teaching language to the Piraha instead. 23:12:37 -!- coppro has joined. 23:12:43 they already have language 23:12:51 dan everett is just an idiot. 23:16:29 theres a paper i can send you a copy of 23:16:40 that talks about the supposed exceptionality of piraha 23:16:49 its really not that exceptional. 23:17:05 thats actually the name of it, too, right 23:17:07 "piraha exceptionality" 23:17:19 http://faculty.virginia.edu/linganth/Docs/Everett-Nevins-etal.Piraha-Exceptionality.pdf 23:17:21 there you go 23:18:11 Well, of course they have language. 23:18:22 I was being... offensive or something. 23:18:39 :p 23:20:13 but yeah 23:39:51 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:48:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:53:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving").