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00:03:32 * coppro mentions patent law when ehird isn't looking
00:03:32 <coppro> uorygl: ehird hates patent law because he can't wrap his head around monopolies having any benefit
00:16:21 <lament> it's not like monopolies would not survive without patent laws
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01:13:45 <coppro> lament: Sure they would.
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02:40:42 <Gregor> I can now load ELF binaries on Mac OS X.
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16:08:45 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <Gregor> I can now load ELF binaries on Mac OS X.
16:08:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <Gregor> Take that, Apple!
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17:10:20 <Gregor> AnMaster: If FreeNode would stay alive for more than ten secodns, I'd tell you :P
17:10:30 <Gregor> AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/gelfloader/
17:10:35 <AnMaster> Gregor, you are on the wrong side of the split
17:10:51 <AnMaster> Gregor, try connecting to orwell.freenode.net
17:11:41 <AnMaster> Gregor, however we seem to be on the same side now
17:11:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, also I read it was due to DDOS
17:12:31 <AnMaster> The requested URL /projects/gelfloader/ was not found on this server.
17:12:31 <AnMaster> Apache/2.2.14 (Debian) Server at codu.org Port 80
17:12:46 <Gregor> Whoops, http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/
17:13:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, invalid cert for the hg browser
17:14:19 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh btw, does it support dynamic linking? Or just static?
17:14:53 <Gregor> Yes, dynamic linking. And no, the cert isn't invalid.
17:15:01 <AnMaster> Gregor, well. self signed then
17:15:24 <Gregor> It's just a perfectly valid cert I updated like two months ago, you must not have the CA.
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17:16:19 <Gregor> Furthermore, it's the /only/ free one as far as I can tell.
17:16:57 <Gregor> Oh yeah, I forget what issue I had with CAcert though ...
17:17:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, does gelfload support rpath?
17:17:35 <Gregor> No, but it would be trivial to add rpath. It doesn't support rpath because rpath is suck :P
17:18:06 <AnMaster> Gregor, why is rpath suck? I found it useful for ~/local/foo stuff when I didn't want to clutter LD_LIBRARY_PATH for most apps
17:18:16 <AnMaster> like, trying out a newer gcc version
17:18:28 <Gregor> More to the point, I wrote gelfloader for Windows originally and I'm not sure how to interpret a :-separated rpath when : is quite meaningful on the host OS.
17:21:43 * Gregor wonders why it is that rpath is a "non-basic" feature, when there are so many more advanced features of ELF :P
17:22:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, well it was the first I thought of
17:22:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, what about gnu style hash?
17:22:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, my system binaries seems to have .gnu.hash but no .hash sections for example
17:22:54 <AnMaster> oh btw, does it work on linux?
17:23:06 <AnMaster> (for playing around with it obviously)
17:23:45 <Gregor> Gack. No, it uses .hash, not .gnu.hash. It does work on Linux but can't load native Linux ELF files as they generally depend on /lib/ld-linux[-x86_64].so which refuses to be loaded like a normal ELF file.
17:24:10 <Gregor> That is to say, they actually use symbols from their interpreter.
17:24:36 <AnMaster> also can gelfload load itself?
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17:25:27 <Gregor> /lib/ld-linux, the dynamic loader, doesn't like to be loaded like a normal ELF file for reasons I haven't yet figured out. I haven't prioritized it because as it turns out loading ELF files on Linux is kinda old hat :P
17:26:16 <Gregor> And no, gelfload cannot generally load itself, as it's only capable of loading anything at runtime because it's put itself into a position in memory not "likely" to be required by a non-PIC ELF file.
17:26:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, well yes, still useful to test on. At least I always found debugging easier on linux than windows.
17:26:43 <Gregor> It can load ELF files made for it.
17:26:47 <Gregor> I do all my testing on Linux.
17:26:54 <Gregor> Well, except for OS testing :P
17:27:31 <Gregor> If gcc was compiled for it, I'm sure it could load GCC.
17:27:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, macbook for os x sure. but what about windows+
17:27:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, okay. What about glibc?
17:27:55 <AnMaster> it does some crazy things iirc
17:28:05 <Gregor> glibc was the problem I was JUST talking about :P
17:28:11 <Gregor> /lib/ld-linux being part of glibc
17:28:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, well you were talking about ld.so yes which is a part. But even if ld.so didn't work, libc.so.6 (or whatever) and libm could work
17:28:40 <Gregor> At some point I had access to a Windows system, at which point I originally wrote it and also wrote winelf (the library environment for ELF files on Windows). Now I don't have Windows anymore :P
17:28:54 <Gregor> AnMaster: libc and libm depend on ld-linux
17:29:12 <Gregor> Needs libc, and so ld-linux
17:29:27 <Gregor> Haven't tried on FreeBSD :P
17:29:30 <AnMaster> though iirc that is a different libc or such there)
17:29:44 <AnMaster> Gregor, what libc do you use for testing stuff then
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17:30:06 <Gregor> gelfload is capable of "virtual" libraries that actually just cause the loader itself to dlopen a host library.
17:30:27 <Gregor> So, gelfload binaries are linked against e.g. libhost_libc.so.6, rather than libc.so.6
17:30:53 <AnMaster> Gregor, that won't work on windows iirc
17:31:00 <Gregor> On Windows it uses LoadLibrary
17:31:03 <AnMaster> doesn't it link statically to libc there
17:31:06 <Gregor> And e.g. libhost_msvcrt.dll
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17:31:53 <Gregor> Maybe has it's own C runtime, Idonno *shrugs*
17:32:33 <Gregor> The compelling reason to link against msvcrt.dll from nine years ago was that the NT family and 9x family use different (undocumented) syscall styles, so you need to use a MS-provided .dll to reliably do syscalls.
17:32:58 <AnMaster> Gregor, wasn't that user32.dll?
17:33:15 <AnMaster> and then those called ntdll.dll internally or such
17:33:31 <Gregor> Whoops, you're right, user32 and kernel32 are those (which of course winelf has to link against too :P )
17:33:35 <Gregor> msvcrt just uses though.
17:33:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, what "advanced" features are missing btw?
17:34:18 <Gregor> It doesn't support certain relocations I haven't come across in the wild, it doesn't support special sections e.g. RPATH, and anything else I've just plain missed :P
17:34:21 <AnMaster> Gregor, and what linker do you use to target gelfload?
17:34:33 <Gregor> gelfload is just a normal host binary.
17:34:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, what about setting mprotect() for NX and such based on relevant sections?
17:35:06 <AnMaster> iirc there is some way you say that in the elf headers or some elf section or such
17:35:13 <Gregor> It mmaps with the relevant permissions.
17:35:28 <Gregor> (I don't recall whether the equivalent Windows call handles the permissions properly or not)
17:35:51 <Gregor> Which is to say, if the host system's mmap supports making segments non-executable, then they'll be non-executable.
17:36:12 <Gregor> If it's a GNU feature, I don't support it.
17:36:49 <AnMaster> some of those gnu features are useful
17:37:21 <Gregor> Of course they are, it's GNU.
17:37:51 <AnMaster> Gregor, not all gnu extensions are useful
17:38:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, what arches do you support?
17:38:24 <Gregor> Presently just x86 and x86_64.
17:38:29 <AnMaster> since I assume you will need some target specific asm
17:38:35 <AnMaster> to jump to the program for example
17:38:42 <Gregor> That's the only bit of ASM it uses.
17:38:52 <Gregor> The rest is all C. But is still specialized for relocation of course.
17:39:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, what does it do on unknown sections and such
17:39:21 <AnMaster> [68] .gnu_debuglink PROGBITS 0000000000000000 001506d9 00000018 0 0 0 1
17:39:23 <Gregor> Ignores unknown sections, complains about unknown relocations.
17:39:27 <AnMaster> I think that it is (from my glibc)
17:39:53 <Gregor> There are always sections that the dynamic linker doesn't need to care about *shrugs*
17:40:13 <AnMaster> well yes, debug info for example
17:40:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway what functions in ld.so does glibc use? If it is a few simple ones it would be trivial to implement no?
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17:55:29 <AnMaster> <Gregor> There are always sections that the dynamic linker doesn't need to care about *shrugs*
17:55:31 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> well yes, debug info for example
17:55:32 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway what functions in ld.so does glibc use? If it is a few simple ones it would be trivial to implement no?
17:55:34 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oh and do you happen to know what the .jcr section is?
17:55:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh and another question: do you suppport PIE
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17:56:19 <Gregor> I don't know what ld.so does that it doesn't like. Like I said, I haven't prioritized that. Yes, PIEs are supported. It would be tricky /not/ to support them :P
17:56:37 <Gregor> Well, OK, not that tricky, but it would be totally arbitrary.
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20:07:51 <AnMaster> <Gregor> Well, OK, not that tricky, but it would be totally arbitrary. <-- ah, well I never worked at that low level so I have no clue.
20:08:14 <Gregor> PIEs are just ELF files that are labeled as shared objects but have an entry point.
20:08:25 <Gregor> Erm, and are relocatable, obviously :P
20:08:26 <AnMaster> Gregor, does it support Deewiant's dobela interpreter?
20:08:34 <AnMaster> since that is written in asm with a custom file header and such
20:08:46 <Gregor> If it's basically ELF, then maybe? :P
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20:09:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, ever seen that page demonstrating a compact ELF program with part of the program inside the unused fields in the header?
20:09:34 <AnMaster> I don't know if he used that trick
20:09:52 <Deewiant> It has perfectly correct ELF headers, no tricks
20:09:54 <AnMaster> Gregor, http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/dobelx64/index.html
20:10:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm maybe I misremember
20:10:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that link fails to load
20:10:11 <Gregor> It shouldn't have any issues with things like the compact ELF program, self modifying should be fine so long as it doesn't count on the ELF loader caring.
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20:10:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yay for sending incorrect mime type of http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/files/dobelx64/dobelx64-src.tbz2
20:10:50 <Deewiant> Ah, iki says they've had troubles lately
20:10:53 <AnMaster> I'm unable to get it to auto open in ark
20:11:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: tkk.fi, not deewiant.fi
20:11:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh? did I claim it was deewiant.fi?
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20:11:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you can try .tar.bz2 and see if it helps
20:11:44 <Deewiant> My point was that I can't do anything about it
20:11:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, .tgz gets correct mime type
20:11:59 <Deewiant> And there's no point in complaining to me, complain to the IT staff :-P
20:12:03 <AnMaster> so yes you could send it as .tgz
20:12:22 <Deewiant> I select gzip/bzip2 based on which takes less space
20:12:32 <Deewiant> Or if the difference is on the order of bytes, gzip
20:12:49 <Deewiant> Because lzma is a lot less standard than gzip/bzip2
20:13:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you use 7zip, which iirc uses lzma internally
20:13:17 <AnMaster> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html <-- no gz or bz2 there
20:13:33 <Deewiant> Yes, zip. Which is even more widespread than gzip/bzip2
20:13:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you use advdef -z4 on your *.gz?
20:13:59 <AnMaster> it can sometimes save a few percent
20:14:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same package as advpng: advancecomp
20:14:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, compared to gzip --best or whatever it is, advdef can usually save a few percent
20:15:31 <Deewiant> I use 7-zip to generate all the archives
20:15:33 <AnMaster> (as in, still deflate/gzip but better compressed)
20:15:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, advdef can save a bit on that too in some cases
20:15:45 <Deewiant> Actually, for tarred stuff I probably don't
20:15:59 <Deewiant> But then, dobelx64 is the only tarred stuff IIRC
20:16:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and iirc advdef/advzip/advpng *uses* 7zip algorithms
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20:16:50 <AnMaster> anyway, for png it generally goes: optipng -i0 -o7 foo.png && advpng -z4 foo.png && advdef -z4 foo.png
20:17:17 <Deewiant> 212.16.100.1 seems to be a good replacement for iki.fi right now, not sure why the nameservers prefer the .2 which is down
20:17:25 <AnMaster> (for some reason advdef manages slightly better, but advpng does some extra stuff like throwing away pointless sections in the file)
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi has address 212.16.100.1
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi has address 212.16.100.2
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi mail is handled by 10 mail2.iki.fi.
20:17:46 <AnMaster> iki.fi mail is handled by 10 mail.iki.fi.
20:18:24 <Deewiant> Quite, but wget on iki.fi/deewiant shows that it goes to the .2
20:18:32 <Deewiant> Maybe it's iki.fi that have it wrong
20:18:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that a pax or a tar?
20:18:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the source for dobelx64
20:19:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ark shows a file called pax_global_header in it
20:20:39 <AnMaster> ; 10 is taken by an instruction value, don't use it
20:20:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that require a 255 byte in the input file?
20:21:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sure you can do something about it; just add a .htaccess file to fix it. (Okay, so I don't know whether that works on users.tkk.fi actually; I've done that on www.cs.hut.fi, though.)
20:21:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Woot, they allow users to have their own .htaccess?
20:22:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Like I said, maybe not at users.
20:22:22 <Deewiant> I could move it over to cs I suppose :-P
20:23:05 <fizzie> I don't think it has one; I mean, there's only accounts for staff. (I have no clue about Niksula.)
20:24:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which file contains the elf header?
20:24:15 <Deewiant> http://www.tkk.fi/WWW/mime_types.html#htaccess presumably allowed
20:25:01 <fizzie> kosh t 57 % cat > .htaccess
20:25:01 <fizzie> AddType application/x-no-such-application funky
20:25:01 <fizzie> kosh t 58 % cat > t.funky
20:25:01 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ wget http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/t/t.funky
20:25:01 <fizzie> Length: 7 [application/x-no-such-application]
20:25:07 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to work for users.tkk.fi too.
20:25:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: In a subdirectory too? Nice
20:25:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So what's the correct MIME type
20:26:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try file -i on the fil
20:26:16 <AnMaster> see if it says anything useful at all
20:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I *think* it is application/x-bzip2
20:27:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So, assuming it worked, it should work now.
20:27:09 <AnMaster> application/x-gtar gtar taz tgz
20:27:13 <fizzie> Well, it's "x-", so it can't be anything too official.
20:27:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it did after clearing cache
20:27:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway you can limit in apache what .htaccess can change
20:28:06 <AnMaster> presumably they made it rather limited
20:28:12 <AnMaster> mime type only, no scripts and such
20:29:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, broken link on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/misc-projects.html
20:29:28 <fizzie> There's always application/octet-stream, which is also a viable option for binary files that do not have an IANA-registered MIME type. It's better than text/plain, in any case.
20:29:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, (the bit "this programming exercise")
20:29:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You've reported that one before
20:30:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> There's always application/octet-stream, which is also a viable option for binary files that do not have an IANA-registered MIME type. It's better than text/plain, in any case. <-- it was what it was before, causing it not to open in the ark kparts
20:30:41 <Deewiant> http://users.tkk.fi/t1061203/projektit/Adventure/kierros8_tehtava3.html would be the modern equivalent
20:30:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of mime types, and while you're "at it", the .7z files get text/plain too.
20:31:41 <fizzie> Someone claims application/x-7z-compressed, but those are all a bit unofficial.
20:31:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice, now it opens with khexedit kparts rather than kwrite kparts
20:32:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, "someone" in this case *was* the Wikipedia "7z" article in an unsourced statement.
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20:32:43 <fizzie> application/x-x-extra-x-7z-compressed
20:33:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is fasm intel style or AT&T style?
20:33:59 <AnMaster> when it comes to order of arguments
20:34:11 <Deewiant> I wouldn't have it any other way :-P
20:34:12 <AnMaster> ah that explains why it makes no sense
20:34:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do you dislike AT&T style so?
20:34:52 <fizzie> How *coincidental*; there's a Debian bug report from 28 Oct 2009 for the "file" package about the .7z mime type; it's been fixed at 05 Dec (ten days ago) in file 5.03-4 to be that application/x-7z-compressed. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=552742
20:35:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Sigils, postfixes, crazy indexing syntax
20:35:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you mean crazy indexing syntax?
20:35:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is that in AT&T
20:36:40 <fizzie> Also [eax+4*ebx+8] is 8(%eax,%ebx,4) -- every *normal* person can read the first one easier. :p
20:36:53 <Deewiant> In Intel syntax, all you need to know is that [] means dereferencing and the plus and multiplication symbols
20:36:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, it all depends which one you are used to
20:37:09 <Deewiant> That is to say, if you're a normal person all you need to know is that [] means dereferencing
20:37:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, most normal persons doesn't need to know asm at all
20:37:45 <Gregor> Most normal persons don't need to know any programming language.
20:37:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Assuming, of course, a need to know asm.
20:38:07 <AnMaster> "most people wouldn't understand what dereferencing meant"
20:38:08 <pikhq> Most normal persons don't need to know any of dem dere "words" or "letters".
20:38:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, in west Europe I think illiteracy(sp?) isn't that high
20:38:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You wouldn't need to know it in exactly those words :-P
20:39:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm in the US. Functional illiteracy is very prevalent.
20:39:25 <pikhq> (total illiteracy, not so much...)
20:39:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seeing the problems some people had with simple pointer arithmetic in C at university recently I suspect there is no easy way to explain it for some
20:39:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, functional illiteracy meaning?
20:40:36 <AnMaster> I fail to see what is wrong with 8(%eax,%ebx,4)
20:40:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: They are *capable* of reading to some extent, but haven't actually read since high school or college.
20:40:57 <pikhq> Erm. Wrong definition.
20:41:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: One has to know what each argument means in order to know what the whole thing means
20:41:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what postfix notation were you referring to exactly. It seems a strange way to describe that source comes before target in stuff like mov %eax,%edx
20:41:15 <pikhq> Are capable of reading, but only barely.
20:41:16 <Deewiant> I can recognize that as a memory access but no further
20:41:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I meant postfixes on instructions; movl, movw etc.
20:41:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well okay, it seems like it could try to guess it
20:41:49 <pikhq> The lack of reading capability functions as a serious impediment.
20:42:17 <AnMaster> as for the sigils and the proper argument order those are what make me love AT&T asm
20:42:35 <AnMaster> I could live with either indexing syntax
20:43:03 <coppro> my view on indexing syntax is that 4(%eax) is not natural
20:43:15 <Deewiant> Of course I could live with AT&T
20:43:18 <Deewiant> But fortunately I can choose not to
20:44:17 <AnMaster> coppro, I think it is the same as writing 4[myarray] in C basically.
20:44:42 <coppro> AnMaster: I consider that unnatural too
20:44:55 <coppro> and something that should be reserved for IOCCC
20:44:58 <Deewiant> Except that you don't write myindex[myarray,myotherindex,myscale]
20:45:06 <fizzie> Yes; I would hope the majority of C programmers would consider "4[myarray]" unnatural too.
20:45:18 <AnMaster> I wonder if %eax(4) is valid, pretty sure it isn't. But maybe it should be.
20:45:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, you haven't read enough IOCCC then
20:45:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: IOCCC is not trying to be natural, you know.
20:45:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, except it underflowed and came out on the other side
20:47:14 <AnMaster> anyway it goes like: segment:offset(base,index,scale) iirc
20:47:42 <AnMaster> also index and scale are optional
20:47:53 <fizzie> Offset is also optional.
20:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes, forgot to mention that
20:48:04 <fizzie> I for one would feel really stupid writing 0(%eax)
20:48:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would be like eax[0]
20:49:04 <fizzie> Personally I would think it'd be like you couldn't write "*eax", you would have to write "*(eax+0)" instead.
20:49:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, rather similar to people writing char mybuffer[5+1]; to remember the null byte
20:50:05 <fizzie> To quote the comp.lang.c faq on the commutativity of subscripting: "unsuspected commutativity is often mentioned in C texts as if it were something to be proud of, but it finds no useful application outside of the Obfuscated C Contest (see question 20.36)."
20:50:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about %gs:-10(%ebp,%eax,4)
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20:51:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is it in confusing intel syntax
20:51:12 <Deewiant> I don't know about segment addressing
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20:51:28 <Deewiant> Without that, [ebp - 10 + eax*4] I guess
20:51:35 <fizzie> It would be [gs:ebp+4*eax-10], I think.
20:52:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is movl $10, (%eax)
20:52:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what if I wanted to move a byte then
20:53:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, you have a longer suffix there
20:53:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Quite, but I know that "mov" is the instruction
20:53:38 <Deewiant> With AT&T I can't be sure what's part of the suffix and what isn't
20:53:40 <fizzie> Yes, with the indirect-o-tron there you need to specify the operand size. But you only need to specify it at all when it's not deducible from the register.
20:53:51 * SimonRC wonders what the various Forths do for intel ASM
20:53:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I know that mov[bwlq] is the instruction.
20:54:06 <Deewiant> mov [eax], dword 10 works in fasm as well, I think
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20:54:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, instructions very it is meaningful to have different sizes, such as mov, generally takes [bwlq]. But say stuff like cpuid doesn't
20:54:55 <Deewiant> When I don't know all instructions by heart I'm glad to know that the first word of a line is the instruction name
20:55:31 <Deewiant> Presumably calll exists then as well, etc.
20:55:44 <Deewiant> I don't memorize these things.
20:56:09 <Deewiant> objdump -d /bin/ls | grep callq
20:57:00 <AnMaster> since I mostly write gcc inline asm and read gcc output, AT&T is a lot more practical
20:57:35 <fizzie> Also for dereferencing when it comes to branch ops, you have to use * for indirection instead of the "usual" ()s in AT&T.
20:58:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, fairly uncommon in inline asm though
20:58:31 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I just use -masm=intel :-P <-- wouldn't that break inline asm in system headers?
20:58:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Inline asm in system headers?!?
20:59:04 <Deewiant> I meant it for reading the output
20:59:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc htons() checks for gcc and then uses a bswap
20:59:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, it uses some bitwise magic as fallback
21:00:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, and stuff like fpu_control.h would need it
21:00:21 * pikhq goes back to Haskell, with its cross-compilation unit inlining
21:00:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, duh it uses different variants for different systems
21:00:56 <AnMaster> /usr/include/bits/byteswap.h: __asm__ ("rorw $8, %w0" \
21:01:08 <AnMaster> so it is collected in one place
21:01:18 <pikhq> ... Can't GCC generally optimize bit-twiddling down well?
21:01:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't think -masm=intel affects the input anyway
21:01:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, well maybe it is a relic?
21:01:39 <Deewiant> You need a directive in the asm to set it (".intel_syntax"?)
21:01:41 <fizzie> <bits/byteswap.h> is a spectacularly messy "one place", though.
21:01:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, better than spread out over everything
21:02:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, gc.h from boehm-gc contains some __asm__
21:02:05 <fizzie> Yes, but it's glorious.
21:02:23 <AnMaster> # if defined(__GNUC__) && !defined(__INTEL_COMPILER)
21:02:24 <AnMaster> # define GC_reachable_here(ptr) \
21:02:24 <AnMaster> __asm__ volatile(" " : : "X"(ptr) : "memory");
21:02:24 <AnMaster> GC_API void GC_noop1(GC_word x);
21:02:24 <AnMaster> # define GC_reachable_here(ptr) GC_noop1((GC_word)(ptr));
21:02:30 <pikhq> That's probably understandable.
21:03:08 <fizzie> # if __WORDSIZE == 64 || (defined __i486__ || defined __pentium__ || defined __pentiumpro__ || defined __pentium4__ || defined __k8__ || defined __athlon__ || defined __k6__ || defined __nocona__ || defined __core2__ || defined __geode__ || defined __amdfam10__) /* To swap the bytes in a word the i486 processors and up provide the `bswap opcode. -- */
21:03:11 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes, but it's glorious. <-- avoid math headers then
21:03:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is split over multiple lines here
21:03:32 <fizzie> Yes, I combined it for IRC.
21:03:46 <fizzie> I don't think it helps much. I mean, the readability is not the problem there.
21:04:56 <AnMaster> /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h: __asm__("bswap %0" : "=r" (x) : "0" (x));
21:05:15 <AnMaster> iirc those are kernel includes
21:05:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you will like /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h too
21:05:45 <AnMaster> and I suspect you will like certain math includes
21:06:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, in fact /usr/include/tgmath.h is RIGHT up you <road type of preference>
21:06:39 <AnMaster> static __inline__ __u64 ___arch__swab64(__u64 val)
21:06:53 <AnMaster> that was from /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h
21:07:04 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from fizzie: 0.90 second(s)
21:07:04 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from fizzie: 1.42 second(s)
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21:07:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's again the bouncer with multiple clients connected to it.
21:08:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, go look at /usr/include/tgmath.h
21:08:21 <ais523> what's so great about tgmath?
21:08:43 <AnMaster> I can't find any short enough to paste on irc sadly
21:09:19 <AnMaster> it does all the sin/sinl/sinf by including one internal header three times iirc
21:09:30 <AnMaster> ones for double, once for long double and once for float
21:11:12 <AnMaster> well for everyone too lazy to read that file
21:11:16 <AnMaster> # define __TGMATH_UNARY_REAL_ONLY(Val, Fct) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> (__extension__ ((sizeof (Val) == sizeof (double) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> || __builtin_classify_type (Val) != 8) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> ? (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) Fct (Val) \
21:11:16 <AnMaster> : (sizeof (Val) == sizeof (float)) \
21:11:17 <AnMaster> ? (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) Fct##f (Val) \
21:11:19 <AnMaster> : (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) __tgml(Fct) (Val)))
21:12:06 <AnMaster> #define atan2(Val1, Val2) __TGMATH_BINARY_REAL_ONLY (Val1, Val2, atan2)
21:12:17 <AnMaster> # define log10(Val) __TGMATH_UNARY_REAL_ONLY (Val, log10)
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21:17:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523, pikhq: stop being boring and reply :/
21:18:13 * AnMaster prods Deewiant for good measure
21:18:15 <fizzie> What? But boring is what I do best.
21:18:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Be more interesting so there's something worth replying to
21:18:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought that macro was fairly interesting
21:18:50 <AnMaster> or at least fairly horribly bad
21:19:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's just a typical use of a gcc extension
21:19:08 <Deewiant> Looks like a typical few-liner macro to me :-P
21:19:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a twenty line one too
21:19:26 <AnMaster> # define __TGMATH_BINARY_REAL_IMAG(Val1, Val2, Fct, Cfct) \
21:19:30 <Deewiant> Which would probably look like a typical few-dozen-liner to me
21:19:49 <Deewiant> I've seen C macros before and I don't really see anything particularly interesting here
21:20:22 <fizzie> It has a bit of an "the eyes glaze over" problem; it's just this mess of mess.
21:20:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://sprunge.us/ZWiF
21:20:56 <Deewiant> Yeah, a typically unreadable macro
21:21:26 <Deewiant> Doing things that should be left to templates or a similar metaprogramming system
21:21:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lisp macros is the solution
21:22:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about #include_next?
21:23:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it allows system limits.h to include gcc limits.h
21:23:47 <Deewiant> Where's the magic compared to #include
21:24:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, looks at the next directory in the include path compared to current
21:24:11 <AnMaster> so it doesn't use a fixed path
21:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however, just in case, the compiler one do the same with the system one. And then they try to avoid looping each other by checking for it
21:26:45 <AnMaster> ooh /usr/include/bits/nan.h is simple yet "wtf"
21:26:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Looks like a typical usage of GCC extensions in the macro system.
21:26:59 <AnMaster> ((union { unsigned __l __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__))); float __d; }) \
21:27:04 <AnMaster> anyone care to tell me what that means?
21:27:33 <AnMaster> the interesting part of the header is http://sprunge.us/hViC
21:27:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Take the integer value 0x7fc00000 as a float.
21:28:05 <Deewiant> It's reinterpreting the hex value 7fc0_0000 as a float, presumably
21:28:10 <AnMaster> what's the mode __SI__ bit about?
21:28:27 <pikhq> Lemme check the GCC attributes page.
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int8_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__QI__)));
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int16_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__HI__)));
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int32_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__)));
21:29:05 <Deewiant> typedef unsigned int u_int64_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__DI__)));
21:30:25 <pikhq> "unsigned __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__)))" is, of course, the full type. (freaking C typesystem)
21:30:26 <fizzie> "This in effect lets you request an integer or floating point type according to its width."
21:31:57 <Deewiant> I like how modes don't seem to be documented
21:33:01 <AnMaster> __NTH (__signbit (double __x))
21:33:01 <AnMaster> __extension__ union { double __d; int __i[2]; } __u = { __d: __x };
21:33:17 <AnMaster> and unportable to a system where int isn't half the width of double
21:33:24 <AnMaster> from /usr/include/bits/mathinline.h
21:33:34 <Deewiant> bits isn't meant to be portable
21:34:00 <Deewiant> I wonder why they need the __extension__ there
21:34:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: They're sort-of documented in http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.3.1/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html
21:34:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: But apparently that list is gone from newer versions, because the base modes are now normal integer types, or some-such.
21:35:07 <Deewiant> I like the intuitive names, too
21:35:31 <AnMaster> #define FSETLOCKING_QUERY FSETLOCKING_QUERY
21:35:37 <AnMaster> every one is defined to itself
21:35:45 <fizzie> Yes, in the new version -- http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html -- that list has been replaced by the use of a vector_size (N) where N is size in bytes.
21:36:05 * AnMaster tries to come up with a halfway sensible explanation to use BOTH an enum and a #define
21:36:35 <AnMaster> I guess compatiblity, since that is the fallback reason for everything
21:36:41 <pikhq> Clearly, we should nuke the preprocessor.
21:36:43 <fizzie> #define could be there so that you can preprocessor-ifdef against it; that's a common reason.
21:36:50 <fizzie> Enum for any other enumy reason.
21:36:55 <fizzie> Does the enum happen to have a name?
21:37:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, not in that file at least
21:37:25 <fizzie> Well, it auto-numbers the values.
21:37:38 <AnMaster> but that isn't a really good reason
21:39:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, /usr/include/bits/statvfs.h has such an enum and doesn't auto number.
21:39:42 <AnMaster> /* Definitions for the flag in `f_flag'. These definitions should be
21:39:43 <AnMaster> kept in sync with the definitions in <sys/mount.h>. */
21:39:52 <AnMaster> hm they never thought about using a common include I guess
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21:52:50 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Rpath on os x: don't worry. Everything is / based internally. Naming a file with / is replaced with :.
21:53:17 <Gregor> I was referring to Windows.
21:53:39 <ehirdiphone> : is special on Windows?—isn't it illegal?
21:54:42 <ehirdiphone> Simples! Letter at start then colon then backslash meanie no seperato!
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21:55:16 <ehirdiphone> Technically I think C:foo might be valid for some kinds of FS but meh. Allow forward slash also.
21:56:25 <fizzie> It at least used to be so that "x:foo" meant "foo in the drive-specific current directory on drive x:" -- I don't know anything about modern Windows path-handling though.
21:56:46 <lament> :C\:\/:C:\\/:C:CC\:CCCC\\C/::::\\////C//C/C/C:\
21:56:56 <Gregor> Now you see the issue at hand :P
21:57:44 <Gregor> As ELF files aren't supported on Windows normally, no :P
21:58:09 <SimonRC> also : can be used to specify additional streams of a file
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22:00:46 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Have you actually run ELF programs on OS X?
22:01:00 <Gregor> ... yes. WTF did you think I was doing?
22:01:06 <SimonRC> what is up with ehirdiphone?
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22:01:48 <ehirdiphone> SimonRC: Tedious phonetyping inspires fun, ja?
22:02:37 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Technically you could use libraries other than what the library wants yeah? As substitutions
22:02:51 <Gregor> Yes, that's exactly what I do do.
22:03:10 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Gregor: To add C: to the path: C:\:… <-- \ alone at the start of a path is valid
22:03:11 <Gregor> Hence you can use a Mach-O libc in an ELF executable.
22:03:20 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: And—rewrite certain instructions at load time.
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22:03:57 <fizzien900> ehirdiphone: BZZZZZT THE N900 MAKES ME SPEAK LIKE A RO-BOT.
22:04:05 <Gregor> Look, ":" is valid as part of a filename on ext2 too, the only issue is that it's /common/ as part of a path on Windows, so stop getting in a hubbub :P
22:04:24 <Gregor> ehirdiphone: Certain instructions are always rewritten at load time.
22:04:32 <ehirdiphone> fizzien900: The iPhone makes me speak like Steve Jobs. Did you ever meet Nokia's CEO?
22:05:17 <Gregor> I don't have any idea what you're ergoing.
22:05:51 <ehirdiphone> All that needs changing beyond ELF is the loaded libc and syscalls.
22:05:52 <fizzien900> ehirdiphone: No. Just the NRC (Nokia Research Center) head honcho, and even that is stretching the definition of "meet".
22:06:12 <ehirdiphone> fizzien900: Consider that he may be a robot.
22:06:22 <Gregor> ehirdiphone: Ah, yes, that's certainly feasible, although it would be easier to just sneak a layer under libc I suspect ... mebbe not.
22:06:50 <pikhq> You could in *theory* just create a libc that uses different syscalls and an ELF loader.
22:07:02 <pikhq> And hope that the program never uses a Linux system call directly.
22:07:05 <Gregor> Actually, hm ... that's compelling ... I could just replace the syscall with a call to a special function that overloads to whatever the user would like, then define the entire interface as standard C, and run Linux binaries on ... anything.
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22:08:14 <pikhq> And I have tested it with Linux binaries... I know the thing works just fine.
22:08:28 <Gregor> I'm just going to alias libc.so.6 and libdl.so.2 and see how far that gets me, please hold.
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22:09:24 <pikhq> ... Actually, modern Linux binaries do system calls through the Linux call gate.
22:09:42 <pikhq> You could make the ELF loader just load in the proper call gate.
22:09:58 <Gregor> AnMaster: OS X's calling conventions are not different from Linux's calling conventions.
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22:10:15 <ehirdiphone> This could be the start of something beauthorrible.
22:10:24 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo.
22:10:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, not same numbers on different systems
22:11:10 * Gregor goes back to doing what he was doing in the first place :P
22:11:37 <Gregor> AnMaster: Windows is the only OS that insists on fucking up calling conventions at all costs.
22:12:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well, non-trivial to do on the fly, probably easier to put a thunking layer in between
22:12:08 <ehirdiphone> I might be on the actual computomotron tomorrow. I'll play with this crap (EXTREMELY LITERALLY) if I am.
22:12:55 <pikhq> The call gate is dynamically linked, yes...\
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what about apps that uses X11
22:13:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well, this would be for libc too for windows calling conventions
22:13:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh I thought you meant modify the calling sequences to libc at load
22:13:55 <Gregor> I'm just going to let this conversation I started spiral out of control without me.
22:14:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nope, just have an alternate implementation of system calls.
22:15:00 <AnMaster> well then calling convention would be irrelevant
22:15:20 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, does he need to do anything special?
22:15:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, except that the Linux callgate is a handful of actual functions wrapping the most efficient way to do system calls...
22:15:53 * AnMaster points to dobelx64 already mentioned today
22:16:19 <AnMaster> of course that does it's own system calls iirc
22:16:45 * Gregor continues to wait for everybody to finish pouting over problems that are entirely irrelevant in every conceivable way.
22:20:03 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: I'll never kill the conversation again I swear!
22:20:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:20:21 <Gregor> Damn right you won't, you're going to conversation-killing PRISON.
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22:20:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, he does syscall directly
22:20:49 * ehirdiphone gets anally raped by a conversation in prison
22:21:05 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Dammit, AnMaster. <-- why?
22:21:30 <ehirdiphone> Reviving the conversation just as I lamented it's parting.
22:22:16 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, anyway it's the middle of the week
22:22:42 <AnMaster> (not that I dislike that, just surprised)
22:25:09 <ehirdiphone> Gregor: Hit mw with. Link to that loader thing.
22:25:33 <ehirdiphone> Ow, I should have typpen more carefully there.
22:25:44 <Gregor> http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/
22:26:08 <Gregor> Trivially simple, yet apparently exciting to the extreme :P
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22:27:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, #define WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN <-- interesting
22:27:41 <AnMaster> what does it prevent including?
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22:27:46 <Gregor> AnMaster: Who friggin' knows.
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22:28:03 <AnMaster> https://codu.org/projects/gelfload/hg/index.cgi/file/666ac7de7f97/src/bbuffer.c
22:28:15 <Gregor> Everyone recommends its use.
22:29:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you are lazy, it is at the top, sorted
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22:29:39 <ais523_> I love the way you can just copy dotfiles from one computer to another
22:29:47 <ais523_> and have all the settings copy too
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22:30:12 <ehirdiphone> Gravity does all he work of wutomtaically vrining you down
22:30:22 <ais523_> hi from my new computer, everyone
22:30:40 <ais523_> yay for iphone autocorrect?
22:32:00 <ais523_> now all I need to do is reinstall software
22:32:06 <ehirdiphone> I have a spelling chequer / it came with my pea sea. / It plainly Marx for my revue / mistakes I cannot sea.
22:32:08 <AnMaster> (also two arrows, invalid, thus doesn't count)
22:32:21 <ais523_> AnMaster: imagine a netbook, that's been hastily powered up so as to render it capable of running a non-crippled version of Win7
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22:32:30 <ais523_> and therefore is over the top for anything I want to do
22:32:53 <ais523_> smaller and lighter than what I'm used to
22:32:59 <ais523_> and small for weight reasons
22:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523_, horrible keyboard I bet
22:33:06 <ais523_> besides, the screen res is a bit better than on the last one
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22:33:20 <ais523> except ` and \ are in stupid places
22:33:23 <ais523> one either side of the spacebar
22:33:27 <ehirdiphone> No insulting Toshiba laptops, they're good. But ignore ais523_, he buys shit computers because he hates spending money.
22:33:31 <ais523> the keys are actually the same size as before
22:33:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: it's too powerful to really be a netbook
22:33:58 <ais523> I think it has a whole 3GB of memory
22:34:06 <ais523> size is not the only thing that determines netbookness
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22:34:20 <ais523> (3GB, incidentally, because Windows won't use all of 4GB, and it came with Windows)
22:34:28 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you try carrying a laptop six miles down a canal
22:34:30 <ehirdiphone> Do you actually have muscles in your arms?
22:34:32 <ais523> I did once, it was painful
22:34:48 <ais523> this wasn't the cheapest one there
22:35:11 <ais523> anyway, if you want to laugh at me, laugh at me for putting a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit computer
22:35:41 <ais523> I bought one yesterday for the laptop
22:36:07 <AnMaster> ais523, you will use 64-bit linux on it right?
22:36:12 <ais523> AnMaster: 32-bit linux
22:36:19 <ais523> although the windows is 64-bit, it can't really handle it
22:36:26 <ehirdiphone> If there ever is an #esoteric meetup I will merely repeatedly divert the topic to how much better my laptop is
22:36:29 <ais523> there's a Windows Experience Index benchmark thing
22:36:36 <ais523> this computer scores 3.1
22:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well windows 64 bit is worse than windows 32 bit
22:36:47 <ais523> according to the help files, you need 3 to run Aero, and 4 to run more than one program at a time
22:36:51 <AnMaster> the same is not true for linux
22:36:54 <SimonRC> AnMaster: WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN was recently covered by the rather good Old New Thing: http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/11/30/9929944.aspx
22:37:23 <ais523> AnMaster: 64-bit is less efficient unless you have more than 4 MiB of memory or repeatedly do 64-bit arithmetic
22:37:25 <pikhq> I'd just like to note that the only issues I've had on 64-bit Linux are issues with obscure scientific packages I've had to futz with for work...
22:37:32 <ais523> because you can only fit half as many pointers into cache
22:37:34 <ehirdiphone> Does anyone want to transcribe my voice to the channel?
22:37:37 <ais523> and half as many native-sized ints
22:37:37 <pikhq> ais523: ... Or use shared libraries.
22:38:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so better register allocation
22:38:08 <AnMaster> also better calling convention
22:38:14 <AnMaster> since more stuff is passed in registers
22:38:34 <pikhq> (position independent code on x86_32 soaks up a whole register, and there's not many of them available)
22:38:38 <AnMaster> on 32-bit x86 they are all passed on stack
22:38:57 <ais523> the screen res is about the same as the old one
22:39:01 <ais523> slightly wider, slightly less tall
22:39:31 <pikhq> This issue does not really apply to Windows at all.
22:39:33 <ehirdiphone> I wonder how Dasher might be on the iPhone.
22:39:58 <ais523> the old one was 1280x800
22:40:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so in fact 64-bit linux will likely be better than 32-bit
22:40:06 <ehirdiphone> PIC is pretty irrelevant with virtual memory.
22:40:12 <pikhq> Yeah, they just relocate the damned library to each program's load address.
22:40:14 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I've installed this now
22:40:18 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: It's relevant for shared libraries.
22:40:23 <ais523> and it's unlikely to make a noticeable difference
22:40:26 <AnMaster> ais523, you will regret it in the long term
22:40:39 <pikhq> Since you'll want to map the library into different addresses in different processes...
22:40:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, when your distro is done *shurg*
22:41:22 <ais523> anyway, I think it at least has a dual-core processor
22:42:03 <ais523> model name: Genuine Intel(R) CPU U2700 @ 1.30GHz
22:42:11 <ais523> the sticker on it says "pentium", but not which version
22:42:14 <ais523> maybe it's a pentium 1!
22:42:55 <ais523> that's pretty much what I wanted
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22:43:21 <ais523> do you know what I use computers for, mostly/
22:43:47 <SimonRC> <chuckmoore twin="evil">Bah, who needs relocatable code? Just recompile your code into memory each time it is loaded. If that is not practical, your code is too big and your compiler is slowed down by unnecessary language features.</chuckmoore>
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22:44:46 <ehirdiphone> Fun & scary: see #esoteric meetups, duck binging.
22:44:59 <ais523> also scary: wtf would someone DDOS Freenode?
22:45:06 <ais523> apparently that's what's been causing all the netsplits
22:45:20 <ehirdiphone> duck binging: the giving of copious amounts of alcohol. To ducks.
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