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00:51:09 <oerjan> a revolving door, i see
00:51:30 <immibis> no it was used to commit a murder
00:51:50 <immibis> and the blood somehow reacted with the paint to cause it to stick harder than superglue
00:52:11 <immibis> oh and there are two of them
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01:03:34 <oerjan> ah.
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14:36:21 <asiekierka> oh my
14:36:25 <asiekierka> i have created a frankenstei
14:36:26 <asiekierka> n
14:36:41 <asiekierka> of an accumulator, Brainf**k and Nybblings(my own crappy creation)
14:38:33 <asiekierka> it has cell memory, a callstack and an accumulator
14:40:17 <asiekierka> 21 commands
14:41:01 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m3b592645
14:46:18 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/m190665e0 - new command
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15:46:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc
15:47:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. remind me, read it hours ago
15:47:13 <oerjan> cliffhangers
15:47:18 <AnMaster> oh yes
15:47:19 <AnMaster> right
15:49:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you get xkcd today at all
15:50:40 <oerjan> er
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16:04:47 <ais523> has Freenode stopped being DDOSed yet?
16:05:16 <asiekierka> no
16:05:24 <asiekierka> but something else happened
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16:52:26 <ais523> anmaster|laptop: your computer just changed size?
16:54:13 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, no?
16:54:14 <ais523> it was a notebook, now it's a laptop
16:54:16 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, no, the point here was that it wasn't a noteboo
16:54:22 <anmaster|laptop> it was a notebook/laptop
16:54:22 <ais523> ah
16:54:28 <anmaster|laptop> I never said it was a netbook
16:54:32 <anmaster|laptop> netbook != notebook
16:54:32 <ais523> whereas this is somewhere between a netbook and a subnotebook
16:55:00 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, notebook = "new name for laptop since it was discovered that actually using it on your lap isn't such a good idea"
16:55:10 <ais523> heh
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16:55:16 <anmaster|laptop> at least ehird claimed that
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16:55:30 <ais523> for temperature reasons
16:55:30 <anmaster|laptop> well yes
16:55:30 <ais523> although I used to use one on my lap with a duvet in between
16:55:30 <ais523> while lying in bed
16:55:35 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, to make the matter worse I'm using my desktop keyboard atm
16:55:37 <anmaster|laptop> synergy
16:55:53 <anmaster|laptop> just my normal bouncer isn't managing to join all channels before losing connection
16:56:03 <ais523> ugh, the DDOS is that bad?
16:56:04 <anmaster|laptop> thus an emergency connection for the important channels on my laptop
16:56:12 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, and I'm in a lot of channels
16:56:14 <anmaster|laptop> usually
16:56:20 <anmaster|laptop> on this connection just 4 channels
16:56:32 <anmaster|laptop> my usual is around 70 or so iirc
16:56:37 <ais523> I'm glad that #esoteric is one of those four
16:56:43 <anmaster|laptop> hah
16:56:52 <ais523> I voluntarily keep myself to a maximum number of channels that fits on the screen horizontally
16:57:02 <ais523> as a method of preventing myself overchanneling
16:57:03 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, I have a vertical list
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16:57:09 <anmaster|laptop> I need to scroll it
16:57:16 <anmaster|laptop> even on my desktop
16:57:40 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, after all I'm on something like 420 or so in total nowdays. Yes I cut down recently
16:58:40 <ais523> how many do you actually pay attention to conversations in?
16:59:31 <anmaster|laptop> ais523, 70% maybe, not all are high volume. Not all are meant for reading (stuff like log channel for network services on one network, only read it when something bad happened and you need to figure out what)
16:59:53 <anmaster|laptop> some, like #freenode I only look in when there are lots of splits
17:01:09 <anmaster|laptop> hm this nick is moving the nick column too far out.
17:01:45 -!- anmaster|laptop has changed nick to anmaster_l.
17:01:50 <anmaster_l> should be better
17:01:57 <anmaster_l> right
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17:09:17 <anmaster_l> and here we go again
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17:09:19 <anmaster_l> any  second now
17:09:19 <anmaster_l> split again on the other computer's connection
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17:18:10 * ais523 installs packages
17:18:45 <anmaster_l> ais523, can you please highlight me
17:18:48 <anmaster_l> I want to test something
17:18:49 <anmaster_l> in this client
17:18:52 <ais523> anmaster_l: highlight
17:18:55 <anmaster_l> hm worked
17:19:13 <anmaster_l> ais523, can you now highlight me in /msg to me directly. I think it is still broken there
17:19:30 <anmaster_l> as in: /msg anmaster_l anmaster_l
17:19:31 <anmaster_l> or such
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17:28:17 <uorygl> I keep reading that as /iˈhərdɪfoʊn/.
17:28:34 <uorygl> (Y'know, ee-HER-dih-fone.)
17:30:50 <asiekierka> asiekierka's crappy irc server using some network apps: asciinet.ath.cx:6667
17:42:44 <uorygl> Hey, you have an ath.cx thing. Is that a DynDNS domain name?
17:45:48 <asiekierka> yes
17:45:51 <asiekierka> it is, uorygl
17:46:00 <asiekierka> asciiland.ath.cx:6667 does the same though
17:52:53 <anmaster_l> asiekierka, what irc server is it?
17:55:01 <asiekierka> my own
17:55:04 <asiekierka> hosted from my netbook
17:55:06 <asiekierka> on beware irc
17:55:07 <asiekierka> d
17:55:20 <asiekierka> it has service
17:55:21 <asiekierka> s
17:57:24 * uorygl adds 500 milliseconds of delay to asiekierka's enter key.
17:59:30 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> my own <asiekierka> on beware ircd <-- so not your own then. I was asking about ircd yes
17:59:38 <AnMaster> anyway *shrug*
17:59:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, how many users?
18:00:11 * AnMaster see no point in connecting really
18:02:25 <asiekierka> Five?
18:02:25 <anmaster_l> ais523, why the sudden decision to get a cloak today?
18:02:32 <asiekierka> err
18:02:32 <asiekierka> four
18:02:35 <asiekierka> 1 bot, 3 people
18:02:35 <anmaster_l> ais523, excluding services I meant
18:02:38 <asiekierka> also my own as in i host it
18:02:46 <anmaster_l> *shrug*
18:03:17 <asiekierka> and the bot is not a service
18:03:56 <ais523> anmaster_l: I'd meant to for a while, just never got around to it
18:04:01 <ais523> and I was in #freenode and thought, why not?
18:06:28 <fizzie> Freenode should offer something that they could call a "dagger", so that you could get the full cloak-and-dagger experience.
18:09:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, XD
18:16:49 <fizzie> I have no clue what a dagger could be, though. Something you can stab with.
18:25:09 <lament>  /stab fizzie
18:32:27 <asiekierka>  http://pastebin.com/m3b592645 - bored
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18:39:03 <soupdragon> wot
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19:07:29 <uorygl> The dagger deletes an IRC channel and prevents it from being recreated.
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19:51:03 <AnMaster> ais523: what is the point of time() taking an argument that is a pointer to somewhere to also store the return value
19:51:10 <AnMaster> I mean, normally you just do time(NULL);
19:51:20 <AnMaster> but why have that argument there at all. it seems mostly useless
19:51:32 <fizzie> It used to take the argument only, wasn't it so?
19:51:37 <ais523> backwards compat, I think
19:51:41 <AnMaster> ah
19:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, is there any standard C function to get a random floating point value?
19:54:01 <ais523> no
19:54:12 <ais523> besides, it's basically impossible to randomise fairly over the range of floats
19:54:16 <AnMaster> meh
19:54:19 <ais523> because there are more of them at some places than others
19:54:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I need a reasonable random floating point value in the range [0,2*pi)
19:54:46 <AnMaster> hm
19:55:05 <AnMaster> ais523, random enough to be good enough for a game of pong in this case
19:55:20 <ais523> just generate a random integer from 0 to RAND_MAX and scale
19:55:20 <AnMaster> so not for any cryptographically important things
19:55:26 <AnMaster> hm yeah sounds best
19:55:38 <fizzie> When your needs are just "reasonable", you can take the one returned by plain old rand(), floatize, divide by RAND_MAX, and have ais523 write this advice a lot faster than I.
19:56:20 <fizzie> Maybe divide by (RAND_MAX+1) if you want that half-open interval.
19:57:04 <ais523> fizzie: be careful there, given that RAND_MAX + 1 may well overflow an integer
19:57:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, I guess it would be unfair to make it 1/RAND_MAX times more likely to go in one direction
19:57:22 <AnMaster> of course it probably wouldn't matter
19:58:08 <AnMaster> since 0 = 2pi when it comes to trigonometry
19:58:17 <AnMaster> (well no, not really, but the effect is that)
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20:04:53 <AnMaster> why on earth is the #define M_PI in math.h not part of standard C, but instead POSIX only?
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20:06:04 <AnMaster> in fact it is XSI even!
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22:37:49 <uorygl> So 256ths of a circle? That's not all that strange.
22:41:31 <Gregor> That's 8-bit degrees :P
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22:42:20 <AnMaster> Gregor, indeed. But it was stored as fixpoint in a 32-bit int
22:42:24 <AnMaster> which made about zero sense
22:42:43 <Gregor> OK, that's pretty weird :P
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22:46:45 <AnMaster> Gregor, agreed
22:46:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, to begin with it is weird that anyone uses fixpoint these days
22:47:31 <lament> so it's not a fixpoint
22:47:36 <lament> and the unit is not 1/256
22:47:46 <lament> it's whole numbers, and the unit is smaller :)
22:47:49 <Gregor> Embedded developers use fixed point.
22:49:07 <AnMaster> well yes
22:49:13 <AnMaster> but this wasn't for embedded devices
22:49:28 <AnMaster> Gregor, to begin with, embedded devices would never use motif
22:49:36 <AnMaster> wait no, it isn't motif
22:49:39 <Gregor> Nobody should use motif.
22:49:44 <AnMaster> it is custom
22:49:50 <AnMaster> anyway, it uses X
22:49:56 <AnMaster> and a whole lot of other things
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23:07:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, Motif should die. As should the X11 widget library.
23:08:17 <Gregor> It has died :P
23:08:33 <pikhq> No, it's almost died.
23:08:52 <Gregor> Nothing in F/OSS ever dies to the point where it simply no longer exists, it's died as much as F/OSS can die.
23:08:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about historical software
23:08:53 <pikhq> The library has not been purged from every UNIX machine.
23:08:55 <AnMaster> bitrot
23:09:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, Motif hasn't really suffered from that. It's maintained at *least* enough so that it still builds.
23:09:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes that is why motif should and most continue to exist
23:10:46 <AnMaster> so that applications can build against it
23:10:46 <pikhq> You're talking to someone who wants to nuke all of X11...
23:10:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about people who want to try mosaic for example?
23:10:46 <pikhq> "Meh".
23:11:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, historical software should be accessible IMO
23:11:06 <AnMaster> it is part of our history
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23:14:27 <anmaster_l> meh netsplit ahead
23:14:47 <anmaster_l> look I'm clairvoyant!
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23:14:55 <anmaster_l> Gregor, ^
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23:15:20 <anmaster_l> oerjan, iwc
23:15:30 <anmaster_l> wait didn't we already do it=
23:15:36 <anmaster_l> s/=/
23:15:47 <anmaster_l> s/\/$/\/\//
23:16:07 <oerjan> yes we did.  i think we have officially jumped the shark.
23:16:14 <anmaster_l> oerjan, yes
23:16:17 <anmaster_l> oerjan, indeed
23:16:29 <anmaster_l> oerjan, that is when it *really* takes off
23:16:47 * oerjan swats anmaster_l -----###
23:17:28 <anmaster_l> oerjan, there are complex numbers and quaternions, what about some type of extension to the real numbers that have three "components" instead?
23:17:48 <anmaster_l> or for that matter, more than four
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23:18:46 <oerjan> there are always vectors of any dimension.  it is getting multiplication and division with any kind of reasonable properties tham limits it to 1,2,4,8
23:18:59 <anmaster_l> oerjan, and what about 16?
23:19:10 <anmaster_l> (if I'm seeing the correct pattern here)
23:19:47 <oerjan> a new property breaks down at each step.  at 16 there isn't anything left, more or less.
23:20:19 <oerjan> quaternions don't have commutative multiplication, octonions don't have associative
23:20:26 <anmaster_l> hm
23:20:38 <anmaster_l> and then what is the next step to drop?
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23:21:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley-Dickson_construction
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23:21:33 <anmaster_l> ah interesting
23:22:14 <oerjan> "The algebra immediately following the octonions is called the sedenions. It retains an algebraic property called power associativity, meaning that if s is a sedenion, snsm = sn + m, but loses the property of being an alternative algebra and hence cannot be a composition algebra.
23:22:20 <oerjan> The Cayley-Dickson construction can be carried on ad infinitum, at each step producing a power-associative algebra whose dimension is double that of algebra of the preceding step.
23:22:24 <oerjan> "
23:22:25 <anmaster_l> oh and freenode is being ddosed from what I heard
23:22:44 <oerjan> some superscripts got lost in the paste, as usual
23:22:52 <oerjan> anmaster_l: oh for real?
23:23:10 <anmaster_l> oerjan, no, rational
23:23:13 <oerjan> who did we tick off...
23:23:40 <anmaster_l> (I think that was an oerjanific pun...)
23:23:58 <oerjan> no it wasn't, it was an honest question
23:24:05 <anmaster_l> oerjan, my reply I meant
23:24:15 <oerjan> ah.
23:24:37 <oerjan> well i guess i couldn't expect better while we are discussing octonions...
23:24:58 <anmaster_l> oerjan, true
23:25:14 <anmaster_l> oerjan, I always wondered why you can't do integer complex numbers
23:25:28 <oerjan> who?
23:25:32 <oerjan> *huh?
23:25:41 <anmaster_l> well I guess the question would be "integer on what form" now when I think more about it
23:25:57 <anmaster_l> as in, a+bi or polar form
23:26:03 <oerjan> you have never heard of gaussian integers?
23:26:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds strongly familiar.
23:26:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integer
23:27:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that on a+bi or r*e^(i*v)
23:28:06 <oerjan> a+bi
23:28:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, well okay
23:28:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can make re^(iv) where r and v are integers as well
23:28:39 <AnMaster> would be another integer domain I guess?
23:28:41 <AnMaster> or maybe not
23:29:07 <oerjan> r*e^(i*v) doesn't make sense as being anything close to integer - e^b is transcendental if b is algebraic != 0, 1
23:30:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not closed under sum.  in fact it's a famous theorem that different e^(iv) are _independent_ generators as a vector space over rational numbers
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23:32:06 <anmaster_l> oerjan, hm
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23:32:27 <oerjan> well something close to that.  trying to look it up
23:32:40 <anmaster_l> nah, going to sleep
23:32:48 <anmaster_l> night →
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23:32:57 <AnMaster> night →
23:33:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem
23:34:09 <oerjan> hm actually it _doesn't_ apply to iv with v integer, since those are obviously _not_ linearly independent
23:34:38 <uorygl> Say, anyone know what a linear combination of infinitely many things is?
23:34:50 <oerjan> oh wait it does apply under the equivalent formulation (Baker) listed
23:35:22 <oerjan> uorygl: requires a notion of limit at the very least...
23:35:34 <uorygl> Indeed.
23:36:18 <oerjan> and if it's not absolutely convergent, then depends on summation order
23:36:32 <oerjan> *it depends
23:37:32 <uorygl> Suppose your set is the set of all functions of the form f(x) = {a, if x <= b; a + (x - b), if x >= b} for real numbers a and b.
23:37:39 <uorygl> What are all the linear combinations of that?
23:38:59 <uorygl> I wonder if the degenerate cases {b = +infinity, a = k} and {b = -infinity, a - b = k} for real numbers k are linear combinations of that.
23:39:20 <oerjan> intuitively i think you can converge to anything that has derivatives between -1 and 0
23:39:34 <oerjan> oh wait
23:39:43 <oerjan> scratch that
23:39:54 * uorygl ponders taking inspiration from probability spaces.
23:40:18 <oerjan> oh wait second derivative
23:40:35 <oerjan> or rather
23:40:46 <oerjan> er
23:40:55 <oerjan> _linear_ combinations, not just sums
23:41:01 <oerjan> so
23:41:11 <uorygl> Consider something that's like a probability space but without the requirement that the "probability" of the whole thing be 1. I imagine there's a name for that.
23:41:16 <oerjan> ok i think you basically get everything
23:41:22 <uorygl> Some sort of distribution thingy. Not "distribution", I'm sure.
23:41:29 <oerjan> continuous
23:41:57 <oerjan> depending on exactly what kind of limit you take i suppose
23:42:13 <oerjan> uorygl: "measure"
23:42:16 <uorygl> Intuitively, yeah, I think the linear combinations of that set are the continuous functions.
23:42:28 <uorygl> Huh, neat.
23:43:06 <uorygl> What precisely, though, if the members of the "probability space" are S and the "probabilities" are T?
23:44:15 <oerjan> ah yes...
23:44:51 <oerjan> the things that are integrals of measures are known as "absolutely continuous" functions
23:45:46 <oerjan> however there is an even further generation of this, which iirc _is_ called distributions
23:46:20 <oerjan> but then things don't get to be real functions, but instead something called generalized functions
23:46:58 <uorygl> Distributions are too general. I think there's a distribution whose convolution with anything is its derivative.
23:47:18 <oerjan> yes, yes there is
23:47:43 <uorygl> Anyway, let's call that thing a measure of S by T.
23:48:03 <oerjan> oh wait absolutely continuous applies to when the measure itself is absolutely continuous
23:48:24 <oerjan> ah right...
23:48:35 <uorygl> So for some basis set B, consider the set of all measures of B by the real numbers...
23:49:26 <oerjan> for (non-negative) measures, what you get by integrating them are the right continuous increasing functions
23:50:39 <oerjan> for probabilities at least, also known as cumulative distributions, but a different sense of the word distribution
23:50:44 <uorygl> And also consider the set of all measures of B by whatever vector space B is a subset of...
23:51:27 <oerjan> s/increasing/non-decreasing/
23:51:32 <uorygl> ...what's that thing that's like a tensor product but without ab * c = b * ac? :-P
23:51:55 <uorygl> I'm sure that's called the product space of vectors or something.
23:53:48 <oerjan> oh if you ignore scalar product?
23:54:33 <oerjan> = a(b * c) also dropped at both ends, i presume?
23:55:14 <oerjan> but then iiuc you only retain group properties, so tensor product _as_ groups rather than vector spaces?
23:56:10 <oerjan> hm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product doesn't list that directly
23:56:38 <oerjan> _although_ abelian groups = Z modules, so it's listed indirectly i think
23:56:52 <uorygl> Well, I'm really just talking about the Cartesian product of two vector spaces, made into a vector space the obvious way.
23:57:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product_of_modules, the example section uses a group
23:58:23 <oerjan> uorygl: um but then (ab * c) = a(b * c) = (b * ac)
23:58:48 <oerjan> oh wait
23:59:06 <oerjan> the _cartesian_ product of two vector spaces is not their tensor product
23:59:09 <uorygl> Right.
23:59:28 <oerjan> that's in fact their direct sum instead