< 1261008020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, product, those are equivalent for modules/vector spaces < 1261008038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so product, without tensor < 1261008065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION giggles at the idea of the sum of two vector spaces. < 1261008074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product < 1261008088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very general categorical concept < 1261008169 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1261008294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, as explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product#Direct_product_of_modules, _finite_ sums and products are the same < 1261008485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why call it a sum if it's not a disjoint union? < 1261008515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disjoint union = sum in the category of _sets_, iirc < 1261008558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while product = cartesian product < 1261008583 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders proofs that 0 is not equal to 1, and decides that there isn't much of one anywhere. < 1261008591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sum and product categorically stem from the universal property concept < 1261008608 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261008635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: peano arithmetic or real numbers? < 1261008666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or von neumann ordinals perhaps < 1261008681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as cardinality < 1261008719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for real numbers i think it may be one of the axioms... < 1261008763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for peano arithmetic: 1 = succ(0). by axiom, 0 is not a successor. < 1261008815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :von neumann ordinal: {} is clearly a member of 1={{}}, and not of 0={} < 1261008886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION leaves the cardinality case as an exercise < 1261009374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brrr < 1261009380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders cardinality. < 1261009385 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dedekind cuts are another possibility. < 1261009385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at weather forecast < 1261009414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah, that would be as part of proving dedekind cuts fulfil the real number axioms < 1261009414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, real numbers? Is there a proof that 0 is not 1 for the real numbers that deserves the word "proof"? < 1261009436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said, it may be one of the axioms < 1261009566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it may be part of the definition of "field". from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics) : "For technical reasons, the additive identity and the multiplicative identity are required to be distinct." < 1261009623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, if you remove that requirement you only get a trivial field remaining, because then x = 1x = 0x = 0 < 1261009676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for dedekind cuts it's of course easy too, 1/2 is in one but not the other < 1261010529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you have to prove that 1/2 is in 1 but not 0. < 1261010564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1/2 < 1, as rational numbers < 1261010585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to recurse, apply recursion < 1261010588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261010608 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261010765 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261011524 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261011555 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261011830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261011924 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261012041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261012135 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261012245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261012268 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261012383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261012403 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261014124 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261014133 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@209.20.74.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261015513 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what a blue-yellow color would look like. < 1261015542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would probably blow < 1261015545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders how useful it is to try to imagine blue-yellow. < 1261015570 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've slightly succeeded. I seem to be imagining a slightly yellowish very light blue. < 1261015809 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about green? < 1261015825 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Green is neither bluish nor yellowish. < 1261015873 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You see, the colors, ignoring brightness, can be arranged into a plane. There's a red/green axis and a blue/yellow axis. Everything on the blue side of the blue/yellow axis is bluish, everything on the red side of the red/green axis is reddish, and so on. < 1261015885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i tried to tell him but i couldn't think of a pun that fit < 1261015945 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, "blow" was a pun. < 1261015982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles^Wblows innocently < 1261016015 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^W? < 1261016029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delete word in irssi < 1261016063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: That's a consequence of our three-cone vision, not an intrinsic property of colors. < 1261016113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261016197 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at cone cell responsivity spectra. < 1261016220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sometimes wonders what aliens with completely different color sense would make of our visual media < 1261016257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even just animals, if there are any such < 1261016279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(black and white vision obviously doesn't count) < 1261016288 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no reason to believe that the range would even be close to ours, so it's entirely possible that basically everything artificial would be a solid color. < 1261016309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Two-cone animals exist. e.g. cows. < 1261016314 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take an existing image. Create two images from it: one whose red component is the original's blue and whose blue is the original's green, and one whose green is the original's blue and the blue is the original's red. Put them side by side, and cross your eyes to as to look at both in the same place. < 1261016318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261016323 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't most mammals two-coners? < 1261016329 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, *that*. < 1261016348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: however they would still see it as naturally as we do if their cone subset is close enough to a subset of ours < 1261016365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cone subset/cone set/ < 1261016381 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, except that they wouldn't be able to distinguish e.g. green from purple. < 1261016403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's not being unable to distinguish things we can i'm pondering < 1261016462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pondering the fact that virtually all our visual media depends on our three cone vision and therefore the actual physical colors in a picture are probably nowhere close to the true colors of the thing depicted < 1261016500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i'm pondering is actually the opposite, someone who can distinguish things we cannot and so would consider our media to be horribly mismatched < 1261016537 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, looking at these spectra, I see that while the blue cone is pretty much orthogonal to the others, the red and green are quite similar. < 1261016550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall reading somewhere recently that birds have four cones, so they might apply... < 1261016589 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have a pretty good ability to distinguish red and green, considering that they're apparently similar colors, whereas our ability to distinguish blue and non-blue is more mundane. < 1261016596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are not intelligent enough to really make a statement on the issue < 1261016640 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might depend on the bird! < 1261016656 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs. < 1261016682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the thing i read had a "most" somewhere < 1261016696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er does the cough mean there was a pun there? < 1261016723 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it means I'm relatively unsure of what I just said. < 1261016723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you were talking about intelligence? < 1261016730 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1261016740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did read about that one parrot < 1261016748 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alex? < 1261016763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have friends named after that parrot. < 1261016765 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs. < 1261016772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Look, spaced repetition!) < 1261016868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i think it was n'kisi, found the goodall quote... < 1261016924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jane Goodall? < 1261016946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261016953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27kisi < 1261017258 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I told myself I would do non-actual work on a big project today. < 1261017272 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll do that now, right after asking 0x44 about Slicehost. < 1261017304 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except he's not here, so. < 1261017320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what non-actual work is like < 1261017434 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like actual work, but easier and more time-consuming. < 1261017458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual work is harder and even more time-consuming. < 1261017458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261017479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION detects a violation of the ordering axioms < 1261017485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If those two statements seem to contradict each other, ignore the second one. < 1261017510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1261018691 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261018930 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019012 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019226 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019382 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019502 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019592 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261019710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019730 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261020461 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261020721 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125.236.168.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261032001 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261033240 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261036363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH" < 1261036368 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261036799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261036800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261037378 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-110.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261037705 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-238-252-34.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261037966 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261037970 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :immibis < 1261038387 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261038440 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261040755 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261041385 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041385 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041385 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041386 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041386 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041386 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041447 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261041489 0 :lifthrasiir!i=gXwEfhms@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261041589 0 :jix!n=jix@188.40.47.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261042564 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261042564 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261045193 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261045413 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-76-251.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261051255 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1261051682 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-76-251.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261052987 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261056861 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261060442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261061021 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261065993 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261066177 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.96.167.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261066492 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261066998 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261067023 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is AnMaster still connected < 1261067025 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1261067041 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since supposedly that computer was unreachable for several hours < 1261067054 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both over ssh and local terminal < 1261067195 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is atm running memtest... just in case) < 1261067292 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261067299 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1261067302 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hours ago < 1261067303 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remind me < 1261067366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn my internet is slow < 1261067376 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use damn slow linux < 1261067396 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fox < 1261067399 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1261067400 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax* < 1261067440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261067441 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iwc = I want cake < 1261067473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok must have been just that one site < 1261067486 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I know whatever it was happened between 17:15 and 17:29 < 1261067513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: end of the world. but it got restarted. < 1261067531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between 17:15 and 17:29, that is. i haven't looked at iwc yet. < 1261067534 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 17:15:06 was the last log message (doesn't seem related at all, just something from the caching dns server on the computer) < 1261067552 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 17:29:04 there is "syslog-ng starting up" < 1261067591 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually hm < 1261067597 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kern.log is more interesting < 1261067621 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l iwc < 1261067632 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is 17:12:51 about attaching sdb (card reader in printer, was turning printer on just as I got home) < 1261067637 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, err? No < 1261067643 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaic = as far as I cake < 1261067643 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ < 1261067650 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what we are talking about < 1261067659 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a contest we have, you must have noticed it < 1261067667 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1261067669 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can say iwc first (only valid between me and oerjan) < 1261067674 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, follow the link? < 1261067708 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iwc < 1261067718 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you say it < 1261067720 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261067725 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask oerjan < 1261067786 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked oerjan and he said: iwc < 1261067918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no soup, dragon < 1261067928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: no i didn't < 1261067948 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261067997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats soupdragon for stealth changing his nick again -----### < 1261068013 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi. I had some weird issue with a system locking up. Weird as in: didn't respond for hours on ssh. Later on when I got home I found it didn't respond on console either < 1261068032 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261068037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: seems rather unusual, although I've had that sort of thing too < 1261068038 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however, no blinking keyboard leds for kernel panic, in fact the keyboard was completely dead, even to sysrq < 1261068047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could it be a hardware problem? < 1261068050 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but there was a log message from just before I used it! < 1261068051 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261068058 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats oerjan for wanting cake < 1261068060 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssh had been locked up for quite a bit < 1261068065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is the system definitely powered on? < 1261068067 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the log messages stopped < 1261068074 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes, fan was on. and it is loud < 1261068079 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I had to use the reset button < 1261068079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... forkbomb perhaps < 1261068091 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unlikely, sysrq should work then, no? < 1261068112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1261068120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps memory exhaustion and thrashing < 1261068122 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and numlock, scrolllock and such should do something when you press them < 1261068124 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like changing the led < 1261068139 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, disk is loud in that computer. but it was just spinning idly < 1261068152 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, no disk seeking and disk light on front of computer off < 1261068172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1261068178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... kernel memory corrupted somehow? < 1261068192 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe. USB devices I tried to connect stayed off btw < 1261068195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could sort-of explain what happened if some process started trashing memory < 1261068204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hit sshd first, then the kernel < 1261068211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that sort of thing usually only happens on Windows < 1261068240 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 1) limits are set up 2) sshd and syslog-ng are both set to have low oom score using the files for that in /proc < 1261068255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: wow, that's tunable? < 1261068264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly wonders how easily oom score could be improved < 1261068269 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, you can say "avoid killing this process" < 1261068273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not talking about out-of-memory, but rather, corrupted memory < 1261068277 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea for syslog-ng and possibly sshd < 1261068296 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as for memory corruption I ran memtest just last weekend, no issues < 1261068311 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What computational class is required to increment a number? < 1261068319 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INC < 1261068321 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261068322 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made that up < 1261068329 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it seems perfectly fine after rebooting, even very few transactions replied < 1261068334 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think about 5 < 1261068348 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it seems to reply a few hundred in case of power failure or such < 1261068351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: indefinitely, you need infinite memory but very little else < 1261068354 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261068362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: constant space works but only for little-endian ... < 1261068377 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh? < 1261068378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant space == finite automaton < 1261068383 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261068383 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the nummber is 4 < 1261068397 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1261068409 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why does it not work for big endian? < 1261068428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for big-endian you need to save the length of a carry run... < 1261068428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: incrementing 4, in particular, is finite-state < 1261068435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is any other operation which always produces the same answer < 1261068436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which takes logarithmic space < 1261068495 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we are limited by the length of the input number, and it's inputted in binary (any base would work, but I find it easier to think of it that way) < 1261068502 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw smartctl shows no logged errors or anything < 1261068506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say when summing 111111 and 000000 you don't know that there is no carry until you have read the last bits < 1261068509 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we could always decrement a number >0 by 1, but not increment it, right? < 1261068530 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it all looks completely normal < 1261068530 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _always_ increment it, that is < 1261068544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok even little-endian requires you to be able to read the summands in parallel < 1261068549 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say the biggest number incremented goes back to the start < 1261068550 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and afaik there is no brown-out to blame it on this time < 1261068554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1261068580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking addition. INC doesn't need that of course < 1261068594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, 111111 has problems when reading big-endian < 1261068623 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers a self modifying FSM < 1261068647 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one < 1261068657 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the concept in general < 1261068658 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1261068675 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if it grew legs and could walk then it grows a brain and becomes alive! < 1261068681 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261068734 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But an FSM can increment a number, given enough memory.. so if we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the input, it would need to have a lower computational class than an FSM? < 1261068755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: but the one number you cannot increment is exactly dual to the 0 you cannot decrement... < 1261068782 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual? < 1261068803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under switching 0 and 1 < 1261068804 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but if you're limited to the length of the inputted value, it means you can't increment _any_ value consisting of only ones < 1261068806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, wait, isn't incrementing by 1 bounded by the length of the input? < 1261068816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM < 1261068818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all it is just one bit more < 1261068831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean exactly as long < 1261068832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if it's bounded to be the same length, or proportional to it, it's LBA by definition < 1261068839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: and you cannot decrement any value consisting of only zeros. dual, as i said. < 1261068842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than "in a fixed relation to the length" < 1261068881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: also, the FSM can increment anything, with its noodly appendages. < 1261068898 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doh < 1261068901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is this a bad pun? < 1261068905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1261068910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't get it < 1261068911 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flying Spagetti Machine < 1261068915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1261068920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: *Monster < 1261068925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261068928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1261068929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, *Spaghetti < 1261068929 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I'm thinking about is this, but I'm probably wrong: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint < 1261068952 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, didn't catch the FSM pun :( < 1261068956 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails < 1261068961 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CoolL!!!!! < 1261068994 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I can't see how one could increment "11", "111", "1111", ... < 1261069001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...so if < 1261069001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the < 1261069004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : input, it would need to have a lower computational class than < 1261069004 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you increment binary? < 1261069007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : an FSM? < 1261069009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1261069013 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to the only exception of "0" for decrementing < 1261069020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the heck cannot irssi be _consistent_ about merging lines < 1261069036 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decrementing a number is quite trivial to do in Bipoint. Incrementing a number, on the other hand, would be impossible??? < 1261069084 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as I said, I guess I'm wrong then < 1261069092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: no, it's specifically for INC, little-endian, because you can scan input, print output and keep only constant carry bit as memory < 1261069110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't work for reversing the input, say < 1261069118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, stop using irssi < 1261069123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want something that works well < 1261069129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261069129 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly I don't understand the execution < 1261069161 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :._. < 1261069168 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that the input is read, bit by bit < 1261069171 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, symbol by symbol < 1261069181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well normally i would only paste from the logs, which works fine, but the conversation was going so fast i though i should provide context < 1261069186 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And each time, a decision is made, for which node to continue to < 1261069194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261069206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, still consistency is not one of the hallmarks of irssi < 1261069242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM < 1261069250 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, "output" is _always_ of the same length as input < 1261069253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually LBA can give exponential output < 1261069276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, I meant storage bounded by length of input < 1261069278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and said the wrong thing < 1261069278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under the interpretation that output is not part of the memory < 1261069291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for correcting me < 1261069293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is the most useful) < 1261069301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261069324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can or can not an FSM implement increment? < 1261069342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for little endian, yes I see the issue with big endian) < 1261069475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hm... < 1261069500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you can print more than one symbol for a symbol read, yes. < 1261069508 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.co.uk/group/net.general/browse_thread/thread/479e7ea4fcd78cc5/e809b92fdcc92888?pli=1 < 1261069511 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man lol < 1261069517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, as long as you are allowed to have a "end of stream" symbol or such and are allowed to output 2 or 3 symbols at once < 1261069534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might need 3 if you use a end of stream symbol and want to be able to increment it again < 1261069551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1261069611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and I haven't seen anywhere that forbids a FSM returning an n-tuple or list of symbols < 1261069613 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/mdc465d6 <-- soupdragon what about that? < 1261069638 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Execution begins at S, and then moves to the given arrow depending on the next symbol in the input string < 1261069638 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1261069646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what language < 1261069649 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261069653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some 2D one. but which one? < 1261069660 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one I linked, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint < 1261069660 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261069663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've seen that allowed, although it was called a transducer < 1261069664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261069666 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to be ASCII art of a graph < 1261069667 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you FireFLy < 1261069679 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No problem :P < 1261069682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm okay. I was thinking along the lines of a mealy automaton here < 1261069728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "A FSA can be considered to be able to produce more than one output signal per transition or state. Or, some transitions may not depend on an input signal at all, moving to a new state automatically. (These two situations are also equivalent, save for the number of states required.)" < 1261069729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from < 1261069730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine < 1261069771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm looking at wikipedia, which definitely mentions transducers (and mealy automata are in that section) < 1261069803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transducer? < 1261069811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine < 1261069898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but plain accepting/rejecting ones can't produce any output at all can they? < 1261069908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from being in an accepting/rejecting state at the end < 1261069929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I think is exactly one bit of information, no? < 1261069967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well duh < 1261070030 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hooho < 1261070035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, i suppose you could consider the end state the output, for a little more < 1261070049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well okay. < 1261070081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seems like moore machines dually have no input... < 1261070083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, still that is a finite number of possible outputs, even if input is infinite < 1261070093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what do you mean? < 1261070094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than initial state) < 1261070114 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * "10011" would mean that {1, 0, 0, 1, 1} would be pushed to the stack, so it would contain {1, 1, 0, 0, 1}. < 1261070120 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why so complicated!!! < 1261070121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, clock input < 1261070138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, isn't moore ones like: "transitions based on input, output based on what state you are in" < 1261070145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a moore machine cannot depend on what the input is. although it seems it can still synchronize with it < 1261070152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261070155 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, soupdragon, that was mostly because if it just read the string the regular way, it would have to take reversed numbers as input, and output reversed numbers as well < 1261070162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn i've misunderstood then < 1261070166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while mealy are like: "transitions based on input, output based on transitions" < 1261070177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well I had to learn this for a test a few months ago < 1261070179 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. 2 would have to be inputted as 01, but with the stacks you can actually input it as 10 < 1261070194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm *pretty* sure that either I'm correct or the teacher and the book was wrong < 1261070228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you beat me as i'm failing to learn it at this very moment ;) < 1261070255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moore machines that is. transducers i found in a book (math encyclopedia) years ago < 1261070277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long ago that i wasn't sure if it was still current terminology < 1261070285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well think like this. Assuming you represent the FSM as a graph with directed edges. On the edges are attached conditions. Which you use when you in a given state decide which edge to follow < 1261070287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1261070297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mealy has output on the edges as well < 1261070304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but moore has output on the nodes < 1261070316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make sense to you? < 1261070358 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261070366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it seems to agree with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine. < 1261070383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree the text at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Transducers is confusing < 1261070453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think transitions on edges are prettier, because then input is entirely dual to output. in fact you can invert a nondeterministic transducer to translate back iirc < 1261070470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transition on edges? err that's given isn't it? < 1261070471 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261070480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point was *output* on edges or output on nodes < 1261070484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er *output on edges < 1261070547 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1261070556 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states < 1261070556 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also argh lag < 1261070562 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261070568 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what I say here go through to there < 1261070570 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the reverse < 1261070573 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is weird < 1261070583 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea about that? < 1261070605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is weird; IIRC, asiekierka was reporting similar problems a while baclk < 1261070607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*back < 1261070632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states < 1261070632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also argh lag < 1261070637 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah I'm having problems seeing why lag would like 1-2 seconds in one direction and 20-30 seconds in the other < 1261070639 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1261070647 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even during ddos < 1261070653 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is still going on < 1261070706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnop < 1261070714 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y( < 1261070743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from oerjan: 29.79 second(s) < 1261070744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from ais523: 28.08 second(s) < 1261070746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261070825 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly can you make a better syntax for it? < 1261070830 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something more readabil < 1261070862 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I couldn't come up with anything easy, except of course a graph, but requiring ASCII art is a bit evil :P < 1261070872 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, every statement is basically, if pop() == 0 (or 1) then goto A; else goto B ? < 1261070879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a languitch of ay readabil syntacse < 1261070893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, is that paste runnable? < 1261070899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, what is a runnable version? < 1261070909 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint#Example_programs is a runnable version < 1261070919 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, the paste was a graph to help understanding it < 1261070934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a languitch of ay readabil syntacse <-- you fail at spelling. Possibly this a pun so mangled I'm unable to trace it < 1261070947 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLLO < 1261070950 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you fail if you can't trace it to the row abov it < 1261070953 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above, even :) < 1261070969 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, line*, I guess < 1261070971 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails again < 1261070981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, I'm unable to figure out what "ay" could mean. Only thing I can think of is "aye" which makes no sense < 1261070994 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'a'? < 1261070996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well "may" maybe. but that makes even less sense < 1261071004 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly answer me please :P < 1261071010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, that isn't pronounced that like that in English though < 1261071016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it is some weird dialect < 1261071049 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, well, the syntax isn't the best, but it works. you could of course use C-style syntax if you want, and simply compile it to Bipoint afterwards < 1261071059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "ay" is the emphasized pronunciation of "a", as far as i've always thought < 1261071063 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly no no just trying ot undersatnd your statements < 1261071066 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : op -> ifZero : ifOne < 1261071070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as before vowels < 1261071071 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that means, < 1261071085 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every line has a unique id, ifZero and ifOne are branches that say which id to go to next < 1261071088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wouldn't that be closer to "ai"? < 1261071093 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's op about < 1261071098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, between "ai" and "ay" < 1261071099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1261071112 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, and if op is 1, it outputs 1 in the process, before jumping < 1261071117 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if op is 0, it outputs 0 < 1261071119 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1261071124 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an implementation might be < 1261071150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: english doesn't use the spelling ai at the end of native words < 1261071157 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each round of execution is an output of 0 or 1 (except for the starting node), as well as a jump to a new node, depending on if the next value of the stack is 0 or 1 < 1261071160 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id: push(op); pop() ? goto ifOne : goto ifZero; < 1261071165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i turns to y quite regularly < 1261071166 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly? < 1261071175 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, something like that < 1261071176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, TP did sometimes to enhance a dialectal feeling iirc < 1261071182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does* < 1261071183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1261071187 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly is that wrong? < 1261071197 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, I think that should be correct < 1261071201 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261071210 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can write a unary increment then < 1261071212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so you do output on transitions? < 1261071217 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that turns 111 into 1111 < 1261071220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than on "current state" < 1261071243 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, no, that wouldn't work, since it can only output as many characters as you input < 1261071248 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261071250 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to the fixed number of jumps < 1261071253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so basically that is a mealy automaton with an input alphabet of {0,1} and same for output alphabet? < 1261071263 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, maybe :P < 1261071263 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly oh right I see < 1261071275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, was that "uh maybe" to me? < 1261071276 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the input is always the same size as the output < 1261071278 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I don't really know that much about computer science and stuff < 1261071279 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it was < 1261071286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mealy_machine < 1261071299 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1261071301 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a binary increment? < 1261071338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes given that you forbid outputting more than one symbol per transition incrementing is definitely impossible should any carry be needed. < 1261071349 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?? < 1261071358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, in bipoint I meant < 1261071377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay: "should any carry for the last element be needed" < 1261071377 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking it might be possible to do a binary increment in FireFlys language < 1261071380 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yeah, I suppose it's something in the lines of that < 1261071389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get rid of it before that you could manage it < 1261071391 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, not for values which consists of only 1 < 1261071399 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it's undefined on 11111 < 1261071404 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, incrementing 111 would mean 1000, which is an additional character < 1261071410 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's undefined for any string consisting of only ones < 1261071413 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or < 1261071415 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1261071435 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly what does S do? < 1261071439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you could of course pad it with a zero for the MSB always < 1261071445 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only for marking the start of execution, soupdragon < 1261071456 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm.. true, that'd work < 1261071459 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Padding with zeroes, that is < 1261071460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I assume it maps to the traditonal S_0 in CS < 1261071470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you need to pad with exactly one zero < 1261071478 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec < 1261071481 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah, right < 1261071485 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I define the identity?? < 1261071486 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's only an increment of 1 < 1261071504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id_0 : 0 -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id_1 : 1 -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, yes. I'm not even sure you could do full addition in it < 1261071513 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work but you need to get started, and what do you do at first?? < 1261071516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, maybe with interleaved bits? < 1261071518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261071542 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Campbell, is that you? < 1261071544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, can things point back to the S state? < 1261071551 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1261071556 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that it can't, why? < 1261071559 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's impossible to define the identity < 1261071562 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's almost certainly not him.) < 1261071564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, why not? < 1261071577 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, why would you need to do that? < 1261071581 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it? < 1261071623 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helooo < 1261071627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, another state needed if you want just two states < 1261071638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even just one state < 1261071640 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If S points to a value, you just have to point straight to that value instead? < 1261071652 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1261071664 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261071676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, wait, can't you have multiple edges from a single node? < 1261071692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait yes < 1261071693 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly am I right? < 1261071694 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only have two edges, one 0 and one 1? < 1261071696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you define them on the same row < 1261071698 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, about what? < 1261071708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, and you output depending on state, not on transtion < 1261071713 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly well you can do < 1261071716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then it isn't a mealy clearly, but a moore < 1261071722 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :start : S -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071726 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you were half way through a computation < 1261071733 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you wanted to do identity for the rest of the data, < 1261071733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread that < 1261071737 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way - is there? < 1261071771 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..how is identity defined? :) < 1261071783 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pasted it already < 1261071792 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah < 1261071807 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary_increment : S -> inc_0 : inc_1 < 1261071808 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inc_0 : 1 -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071808 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inc_1 : 0 -> inc_0 : inc_1 < 1261071808 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1261071815 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the binary adding program then < 1261071849 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns 11101 into 00011 (read them backwards) < 1261071873 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, I guess that would work < 1261071950 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1261071974 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think AnMasters idea for adding works too < 1261071989 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might interleave the digits and outpute 0a0b0c0d < 1261071995 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where abcd is the real data < 1261072007 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And take input the same way? < 1261072010 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that would probably work < 1261072033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1261072042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, wait, do you define 1 to be the start state < 1261072050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, what is the output of it? < 1261072053 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1261072055 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im using named labels instead of numbers < 1261072056 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1261072057 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1261072061 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I noticed :P < 1261072062 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's more readable < 1261072065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so the first state can not produce an output? < 1261072076 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S can't produce output, that's right < 1261072079 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the other nodes can < 1261072088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, and is 1 = S here < 1261072090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the example < 1261072091 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster if S had to output you couldn't write the identity < 1261072097 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1261072101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261072113 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1261072118 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly you can define AND and OR in the same way as that ADD < 1261072120 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and XOR < 1261072130 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the start would have to preserve the first value? < 1261072145 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can define every function Bool^n -> Crap^n-1 * Bool < 1261072158 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that's correct? < 1261072217 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function not quite what I meant < 1261072281 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that characterization isn't good because it only works for fixed n, but you can define programs over all n in this language < 1261072684 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to classify the language bipoint? < 1261072752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so the decrementing automaton is basically http://omploader.org/vMzBuNw < 1261072756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I understood it right? < 1261072780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where state numbers are preceded by S < 1261072791 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1261072793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should really be S_number < 1261072798 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Matches my hand drawn graph < 1261072804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where _ detonates same as in LaTeX) < 1261072810 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that I didn't print state numbers < 1261072814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, that was drawn with Dia < 1261072821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be worth trying < 1261072826 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, sounds interesting < 1261072830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, open source < 1261072833 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better approach than ASCII art :P < 1261072859 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that should match the paste I posted < 1261072864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, sadly didn't have predefined connections and such for state machines < 1261072872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to do circle, arrow and text separately < 1261072886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of having it as a circle or arrow with special properties < 1261072903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you could use graphviz to auto generate from the code < 1261072915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably would require just a sed script < 1261072918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1261072922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be trivial in any case < 1261072927 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds neat, I'll check that out :D < 1261072938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, simple script to generate a .dot file for graphviz < 1261072952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if neato would be the best layout engine here < 1261072959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neato or fdp I suspect < 1261072961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than dot < 1261072991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or maybe not < 1261073011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they aren't well order in a hierarchy yeah < 1261073024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Better approach than ASCII art :P <-- yes. Mine is actually readable < 1261073056 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could read the ascii < 1261073112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to write a bipoint → graphviz converter and do it in a language that will be highly inconvenient for most people < 1261073124 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brb < 1261073132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe clisp < 1261073138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or prolog? < 1261073141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1261073142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261073147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang sounds good. < 1261073978 0 :ttthebest!n=theotime@AMontsouris-553-1-5-190.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261073984 0 :ttthebest!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261074644 0 :ttthebest!n=theotime@AMontsouris-553-1-5-190.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261074647 0 :ttthebest!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261074664 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.20.34.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261075247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261075613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, actually a 50 line bash script did the job < 1261075714 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261075802 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261076194 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261076194 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1261076470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, do you have any larger example program? < 1261076479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say 20-50 states or so < 1261076637 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, I'm afraid not < 1261076835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what chars are valid in state names? < 1261076846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just numbers? < 1261076851 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1261076878 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /\d+/, that'd be < 1261076888 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No negative numbers, no floats < 1261076903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you mean [:digit:]+ ? < 1261076912 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, I guess < 1261076923 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except I prefer Perl-style regex < 1261076930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, is there an interpreter? < 1261076941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, go write one < 1261076943 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Categories: Languages | Unimplemented | 2009 | Unusable for programming | Stack-based | Unknown computational class | Low-level < 1261076953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, it should be trivial to implement. < 1261076959 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, it should < 1261076964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, I would recommend erlang < 1261076967 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't feel like doing it atm < 1261077065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what is the official file extension? < 1261077179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash < 1261077184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope that is interesting < 1261077201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, forgot to remove one unused variable there < 1261077210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 41 can be removed < 1261077298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, hope that is "useful" < 1261077304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone should add it to the wiki < 1261077330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would one add http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint < 1261077332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add or link that is < 1261077355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a permanently up website? < 1261077360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is a pastebin < 1261077361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add it with normal external link formatting < 1261077366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does it expire? < 1261077366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no idea if it will expire < 1261077373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: paste it in one that you know won't expire, then < 1261077376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no clue. And I don't have my own hosting any more < 1261077381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like pastebin.ca with expiry turned off < 1261077382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1261077394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text] < 1261077399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, another thing: does that count as an implementation? < 1261077404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it translates to graphviz < 1261077410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than runs it < 1261077411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, but it's stilly useful < 1261077413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*still < 1261077423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it will work fine in the external resources section < 1261077429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you can help me recover my wiki account password yes < 1261077436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no email and lost password < 1261077441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can't be recovered, then < 1261077443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't create new, recovery is only option < 1261077447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you're supposed to set the email < 1261077452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's the only way to recover < 1261077462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually I did set it. but the confirm thing didn't work < 1261077463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or you'll have to ask graue to change the stored email for you < 1261077467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I never got the confirm mail < 1261077469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ouch < 1261077477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so well it's fail < 1261077523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still. I should implement a "svg interpreter for this. So you have to do bipoint->graphviz->svg to interpret it < 1261077529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for the hilarity < 1261077532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sp?) < 1261077543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelt correctly < 1261077609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway. I strongly suspect that bipoint is exactly equivalent with a More automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol for each input symbol < 1261077627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about the bit that the initial state can't have output < 1261077633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all other must < 1261077643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly this imposes further restrictions < 1261077663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you think that last bit affects it? < 1261077728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, I haven't really thought of it < 1261077733 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh, laaaaaag < 1261077734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was busy doing something completely different < 1261077741 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, now I just got a wall of text < 1261077755 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, everything from [19:08:30] FireFly, it should be trivial to implement. and below) < 1261077789 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, everything from [19:18:57] FireFly, I would recommend erlang, rather < 1261077834 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it looks a bit interesting < 1261077868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's quite a wall < 1261077883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1261077903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text] <-- I'm well aware of course < 1261077914 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab. getting some food < 1261077938 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diff AnMaster anmaster_l ? < 1261078575 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261078582 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer "RPG" games are not like proper role-playing-games, they are just called that because of based on some rules in D&D and stuff like that (although there is nothing wrong with that). Can you determine which category of computer games would be more like proper-role-playing-games? < 1261078883 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, some DSP, I think it should have Create Address Space command, to create interleaved address spaces? < 1261078887 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261079159 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261079197 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261079317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did that zzo-visit make sense to you? < 1261079322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly didn't to me < 1261079358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's two completely separate comments < 1261079363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what DSP is he referring to? < 1261079368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, brand/model < 1261079371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc they vary a lot < 1261079396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or is there some esolang called DSP? < 1261079453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's referring to digital signal processors in general < 1261079461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he's invented a command that would make them more useful < 1261079555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't see how interleaved address space would be so useful < 1261079580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it might be useful for some bit shuffling operations I guess < 1261079590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or byte shuffling < 1261079643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but something like a "shuffle vector" seems just as useful, like SSE4.something added) < 1261079689 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261081680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DSPs tend to have "strange" addressing modes in general; many have a bit-reversed addressing modes for doing FFT fast. < 1261081702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what sort of interleaving was meant there, though. < 1261081817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and modulo addressing, to implement circular buffers without any explicit checks. < 1261082486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, some cars got stuck in snow on a road I drove on just about 15 minutes before the incident < 1261082493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three cars in fact < 1261082501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was bad then but not nearly as bad < 1261082507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :location? < 1261082516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, Sweden < 1261082522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261082533 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably isn't as bad as it was here two weeks ago < 1261082545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to translate "halka" to English < 1261082557 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on < 1261082561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :halkiga vägar ~ slippery roads? < 1261082562 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was /really/ bad ice < 1261082562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1261082570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there was warning about extremely slippery roads < 1261082595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by SMHI. Which handles meteorology stuff in Sweden < 1261082602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sp?) < 1261082636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on <-- that isn't legal to drive with during winter road conditions here < 1261082646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it happens during winter < 1261082657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, should it snow in June or such, it would be legal < 1261082664 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261082668 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good law < 1261082686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :winter being classified as October-March or such iirc. IIRC it depends on where in Sweden < 1261082695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, people use the same tires whatever the weather < 1261082701 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-48-165.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261082702 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, said law does not exist here :( < 1261082703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on really snowy days, you can't drive anywhere as a result < 1261082714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but that is because 99% of the time it is just one weather: rain < 1261082730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rains less than half the time here < 1261082734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, more than most other places < 1261082742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm, it's slightly cloudy, for instance < 1261082746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was snowing earlier < 1261082922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl taking long exposure photo through window < 1261083012 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261083234 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261083339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261083403 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@d83-177-15-247.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261083546 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261083751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snowy here too. < 1261083785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not terribly surprising that there's weathery correlation between Sweden and Finland. < 1261083809 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently norway < 1261083830 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[09:59] looks like you have some snow in norway too < 1261083836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't hugin do some sort of HDR image thing by combining images with different exposures? < 1261083903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think it can, but I don't know the details how to make it do that. < 1261083930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you just have to select the "merged and blended HDR panorama" output option. < 1261083971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah was looking right now < 1261084005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes a real HDR image; there's also the enfuse thing that can output a "normal" image using different exposure layers for different parts of the image, in a "sensible" way. < 1261084081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261084133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could try take some window-photography too, but I don't have a real tripod, just this mini-one, and no window ledges big enough for it, I think. I could go to the balcony, but it's far too cold for that. < 1261084150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I *do* have a real tripod :D < 1261084170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that I can actually make taller than me when all parts of it are fully extended < 1261084179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only slightly taller) < 1261084179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okolokopokolol < 1261084185 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you not here < 1261084186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah about 2 meter I think < 1261084187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're on skype < 1261084187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261084190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when fully extended < 1261084372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, I don't really hobbyize the photography thing. I'm not even quite sure where that mini-tripod is. < 1261084420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "hobbyize"? < 1261084447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though before I do anything I need to do something about the white balance < 1261084451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing I used raw format < 1261084547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay wtf < 1261084554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261084554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @ < 1261084554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261084557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my damn laptop < 1261084572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was sshing from desktop to laptop (was debugging why sshfs refused to work) < 1261084577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still what the hell < 1261084991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs, seems wrong icc profile was used < 1261085106 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261085229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, before getting to somewhere where I can actually stitch it together it takes a while < 1261085271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and ffs @ gimp failing to handle 16 bit per channels < 1261085336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly. < 1261085601 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mini-tripod held by pushing it against the window and eight-second exposure nets you a horribly crappy image, but at least you can see some snow in it: http://zem.fi/~fis/night2.jpg < 1261085610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not even that much snow ehre, I don't know why I bothered. < 1261085623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly. <-- yes this was on jaunty however < 1261085629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, slightly outdated < 1261085633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well no < 1261085638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is supposed to do it soon < 1261085646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts do support it now < 1261085663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 8 seconds only? < 1261085665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1261085674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm merging 10,12,14 < 1261085687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your is blurry < 1261085693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you scaled that down right? < 1261085696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the native res < 1261085715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261085739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also had some reflectiony problems. And cat problems. < 1261085815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 seconds on f/2.8 and ISO 100, to be exact. But the "keep pressing the mini-tripod against the window and try not to move" wasn't the stablest setup ever. < 1261085861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the automagic orientation-sensor handled an upside-down image correctly. I'm not sure how common case that is. < 1261085963 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For comparison, this was taken with the phone yesterday-morning at work: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8536-1/20091216_002.jpg -- but it's been snowing somewhat steadily since then. (The picture was mostly about testing whether the gallery thing I use shows the GPS geotags somewhere. It doesn't.) < 1261086443 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-116.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261086736 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261086736 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1261088928 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261089332 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261089361 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437565.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261090621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there still? < 1261090631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm now blending the final image < 1261090637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preview looked nice < 1261090653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how large image file are you prepared to download and view? < 1261090664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess 150 MB is way out of question < 1261090678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, make that 250 < 1261090743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Have you blended it into some non-HDR format or what? < 1261090756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lossy compression would be nice anyway. < 1261090802 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of images, the snowfall here was pretty abrupt; last weekend it still looked like http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/20091212_013.jpg.html < 1261090807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, deflate TIFF. 16 bits per channel < 1261090810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDR would be WAY larger < 1261090852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and that is enfuse, not HDR < 1261090869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a 16-bits-per-channel display, and am not interested in manipulating the image, so why can't you just do a normal 8-bit-channel JPEG out of it for viewing? < 1261090881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I will < 1261091050 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Away for some 15 minutes now.) < 1261091385 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261091409 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261091421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc (time travel) < 1261091468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats AnMaster back into the past -----### < 1261091477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err, future < 1261091485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already read iwc tomorrow < 1261091491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it was definitely the past when ... oh < 1261091514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well don't remind me, we don't want any time paradoxes < 1261091535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, now I have to murder my own grandfather. However he is already dead. In fact he died before I was born. < 1261091543 0 :fizzien900!n=user@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261091548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not before my father was born) < 1261091562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1261091564 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, freenode problemsies, I guess. < 1261091589 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261091612 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that was fast. < 1261091629 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261091642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: < 1261091651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://omploader.org/vMzBxbQ/winter_2009-12-17_small.jpg < 1261091698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no what you need to do is go back to the cretacious and stomp on a butterfly. that's traditional. < 1261091709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you may want to see that too < 1261091723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cretaceous < 1261091729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I guess it looks like that in Norway too? < 1261091740 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are those dots on the left side, about two thirds down from the top? A lamp highlighting falling snow or what? < 1261091770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think it is a combination of falling snow, lamps and reflections < 1261091772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, we have had extremely little snow this autumn so far < 1261091785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some forecast tomorrow or so, i think < 1261091788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, there's some sort of ghost-image of that second-floor-window window decoration thing. < 1261091801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sadly the exposure is too long to see the actual falling snow < 1261091802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite cold today, though < 1261091805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reflections, then, maybe. < 1261091807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I noticed < 1261091838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be interesting to see one of those tone-mapped HDR images out of that scene; they always look so unrealistic, yet funky. < 1261091857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is contrast blended < 1261091873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also: how do you do tone mapped HDR images? < 1261091907 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea; there are probably several specialist tools for it. < 1261091960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant, surely hugin can do it? < 1261091967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that. < 1261091990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once it's outputted a real HDR image, it's sort of not related to the panorama-tools tasks Hugin is made for. < 1261091997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261091998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping -- lists a couple of tools in the "External links" section. < 1261092020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I could send you the original raw images if you want to play around with it < 1261092030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I guess your camera can't do bracketed exposures? < 1261092045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can, though with a reasonably limited ranges. < 1261092061 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it was -2EV, 0, +2EV at the maximum spread, and no way of taking more than three images. < 1261092100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, with a tripod you could manually do more, and use hugin to stich together them panoramawise. < 1261092143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took one panorama image as three enfused layers like that, though it didn't turn out that great. Possibly because of the camera movements between shots; still no tripod here. < 1261092144 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261092198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well there is http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/enfuse-360/en.shtml < 1261092202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite useful to me < 1261092263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it was even worse than I remembered; it's just +-1 EV max for auto-bracketing. < 1261092324 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to get a real tripod, because then I'd have to get a real camera too, and I don't want to go that route; I'll just leave aghhh cat get out of there. < 1261092333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, saying that last part to IRC doesn't really work. < 1261092352 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get a cheap tripod < 1261092355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leave photography to photographers, I was going to say. < 1261092364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheap tripods are like $20 < 1261092367 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and very light < 1261092382 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're not something a real photographer would ever use :) < 1261092451 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, apparently so; the local computers-and-other-stuff store has some sort of max-height-1.15-meters weighs-less-than-a-kilo tripod for 22.90 eur. < 1261092473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Slik U2000" tripod; even the name says "classy" right there. < 1261092528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.15? < 1261092530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's useless < 1261092541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 m is about nice as max height < 1261092564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not looking for a real tripod here, you see. < 1261092580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's useless, it doesn't matter that the camera's useless too. < 1261092590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current one has a height of about 0.15 m. < 1261092647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what sort of camera is it? < 1261092665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicFZ8/ < 1261092685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did your tripod come with a special bag for carrying it in? < 1261092685 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not THAT bad. < 1261092698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lot smaller than what the photos make it look like. < 1261092704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it came. < 1261092705 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261092708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it did, I've misplaced it. < 1261092719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some trouble locating the tripod itself, to be honest. < 1261092727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261092734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for the brand of his < 1261092745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manfrotto < 1261092745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261092755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to be able to locate model number < 1261092794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mooz has a neato Manfrotto panorama head; the thing you mount on a tripod so that the camera can be rotated the "correct" way, and you don't need to do much image-processing in the stitching phase. Well, after you've calibrated the thing for the particular lens and other settings, I guess. < 1261092862 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261092928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To partially eat and regurgitate my previous words; the DMC-FZ8 is a reasonably nice camera for the class it's in; it's just that the tiny little sensors they use in the non-DSLR-style cameras have some physical limitations as to what can be done with them. < 1261092936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also it is quite short when the telescopic things are in smallest position. Around 40 cm or so I guess < 1261093034 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The amazing Slik U2000 is 48 cm when in the carrying-around mode. (I guess that's the total length, not height-from-base-when-the-three-legs-are-spread-out-and-in-the-shortest-position. < 1261093212 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seem to be a metric gazillion of other various cheapo-tripods from a manufacturer called "Velbon". Those at least look a tiny bit less silly. (For example the counterpart to the Slik U2000, the Velbon DF-40/F -- see, even the name is more impressive by far -- costs 4 euros more, but the height range is 0.51-1.45 m. And it's black, not shiny-aluminum. See, these are the *important* points here; name and colour.) < 1261093293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1261093539 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: unfortunately, the most important thing about tripods is weight :) < 1261093557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More or less is better, though? < 1261093563 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more is better. < 1261093569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real tripods are heavy. < 1261093583 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no other way to ensure stability. < 1261093588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, well, that weighs a hundred grams more than the Slik, too! < 1261093600 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also means it's heavier :) < 1261093611 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real tripods are a pain to carry < 1261093629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, agreed < 1261093644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, you just have to spend even more money to hire a tripod-carrying slave too, I guess. < 1261093647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, also you can ensure stability with wide enough apart legs < 1261093656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory < 1261093667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be incredibly awkward < 1261093672 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose < 1261093707 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also tie a sandbag to the middle tube < 1261093710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can ensure stability by building a brick-and-mortar wall to put your camera on wherever you need it. Though I guess the building materials have a bit of a weight problem. Among other (problems). < 1261093779 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to find some picturesque-enough spot so that I could take a set of night-, morning-, day- and evening-panoramas (for the full 360° circle) from the same point, align the images, then blend out of them a "looping" 3200x480 image so that each 800x480 quadrant has a specific theme, yet they still blend sort-of seamlessly together. < 1261093789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I need a picture like that for the N900 desktop background.) < 1261093930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 480 pixels high? < 1261093933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this? < 1261093939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mobile camera? < 1261093945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, mobile phoe < 1261093947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phone* < 1261093985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the screen size of the phone; the background sort of has to be that height. Of course the actual photos can be larger. < 1261094015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually I think I'd like a winter/spring/summer/autumn panorama set from a same point more, but taking that would take, well, almost a year, by definition.) < 1261094094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sun moon stars rain < 1261094221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, by taking the whole panorama each day you could make the blending really seamless! < 1261094241 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the weather never changes! < 1261094284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well duh he would have to select good ones from it < 1261094296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also after a few years you should have good versions of all < 1261094311 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a few centuries it will start to look really awesome < 1261094325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, indeed! < 1261094369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts this on his todo list under the heading "if I ever become immortal and is bored" < 1261094399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night