00:00:20 <oerjan> or, product, those are equivalent for modules/vector spaces
00:00:38 <oerjan> so product, without tensor
00:01:05 * uorygl giggles at the idea of the sum of two vector spaces.
00:01:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product
00:01:28 <oerjan> very general categorical concept
00:04:54 <oerjan> or rather, as explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product#Direct_product_of_modules, _finite_ sums and products are the same
00:08:05 <uorygl> Why call it a sum if it's not a disjoint union?
00:08:35 <oerjan> disjoint union = sum in the category of _sets_, iirc
00:09:18 <oerjan> while product = cartesian product
00:09:43 * uorygl ponders proofs that 0 is not equal to 1, and decides that there isn't much of one anywhere.
00:09:51 <oerjan> but sum and product categorically stem from the universal property concept
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00:10:35 <oerjan> uorygl: peano arithmetic or real numbers?
00:11:06 <oerjan> or von neumann ordinals perhaps
00:11:59 <oerjan> for real numbers i think it may be one of the axioms...
00:12:43 <oerjan> for peano arithmetic: 1 = succ(0). by axiom, 0 is not a successor.
00:13:35 <oerjan> von neumann ordinal: {} is clearly a member of 1={{}}, and not of 0={}
00:14:46 * oerjan leaves the cardinality case as an exercise
00:23:05 <uorygl> Dedekind cuts are another possibility.
00:23:05 * oerjan looks at weather forecast
00:23:34 <oerjan> well, yeah, that would be as part of proving dedekind cuts fulfil the real number axioms
00:23:34 <uorygl> But, real numbers? Is there a proof that 0 is not 1 for the real numbers that deserves the word "proof"?
00:23:56 <oerjan> as i said, it may be one of the axioms
00:26:06 <oerjan> i think it may be part of the definition of "field". from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics) : "For technical reasons, the additive identity and the multiplicative identity are required to be distinct."
00:27:03 <oerjan> mind you, if you remove that requirement you only get a trivial field remaining, because then x = 1x = 0x = 0
00:27:56 <oerjan> for dedekind cuts it's of course easy too, 1/2 is in one but not the other
00:42:09 <uorygl> Though you have to prove that 1/2 is in 1 but not 0.
00:42:44 <oerjan> 0 < 1/2 < 1, as rational numbers
00:43:05 <oerjan> to recurse, apply recursion
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02:05:13 * uorygl ponders what a blue-yellow color would look like.
02:05:42 <oerjan> it would probably blow
02:05:45 * uorygl ponders how useful it is to try to imagine blue-yellow.
02:06:10 <uorygl> I've slightly succeeded. I seem to be imagining a slightly yellowish very light blue.
02:10:25 <uorygl> Green is neither bluish nor yellowish.
02:11:13 <uorygl> You see, the colors, ignoring brightness, can be arranged into a plane. There's a red/green axis and a blue/yellow axis. Everything on the blue side of the blue/yellow axis is bluish, everything on the red side of the red/green axis is reddish, and so on.
02:11:25 <oerjan> coppro: i tried to tell him but i couldn't think of a pun that fit
02:13:02 * oerjan whistles^Wblows innocently
02:14:23 <Gregor> uorygl: That's a consequence of our three-cone vision, not an intrinsic property of colors.
02:16:37 * uorygl looks at cone cell responsivity spectra.
02:17:00 * oerjan sometimes wonders what aliens with completely different color sense would make of our visual media
02:17:37 <oerjan> or even just animals, if there are any such
02:17:59 <oerjan> (black and white vision obviously doesn't count)
02:18:08 <Gregor> There's no reason to believe that the range would even be close to ours, so it's entirely possible that basically everything artificial would be a solid color.
02:18:29 <Gregor> oerjan: Two-cone animals exist. e.g. cows.
02:18:34 <uorygl> Take an existing image. Create two images from it: one whose red component is the original's blue and whose blue is the original's green, and one whose green is the original's blue and the blue is the original's red. Put them side by side, and cross your eyes to as to look at both in the same place.
02:18:43 <uorygl> Aren't most mammals two-coners?
02:19:08 <oerjan> Gregor: however they would still see it as naturally as we do if their cone subset is close enough to a subset of ours
02:19:25 <oerjan> s/cone subset/cone set/
02:19:41 <Gregor> oerjan: Well, except that they wouldn't be able to distinguish e.g. green from purple.
02:20:03 <oerjan> Gregor: it's not being unable to distinguish things we can i'm pondering
02:21:02 <oerjan> i'm pondering the fact that virtually all our visual media depends on our three cone vision and therefore the actual physical colors in a picture are probably nowhere close to the true colors of the thing depicted
02:21:40 <oerjan> so what i'm pondering is actually the opposite, someone who can distinguish things we cannot and so would consider our media to be horribly mismatched
02:22:17 <uorygl> So, looking at these spectra, I see that while the blue cone is pretty much orthogonal to the others, the red and green are quite similar.
02:22:30 <oerjan> i vaguely recall reading somewhere recently that birds have four cones, so they might apply...
02:23:09 <uorygl> So we have a pretty good ability to distinguish red and green, considering that they're apparently similar colors, whereas our ability to distinguish blue and non-blue is more mundane.
02:23:16 <oerjan> but they are not intelligent enough to really make a statement on the issue
02:24:00 <uorygl> Might depend on the bird!
02:24:42 <oerjan> i think the thing i read had a "most" somewhere
02:24:56 <oerjan> er does the cough mean there was a pun there?
02:25:23 <uorygl> No, it means I'm relatively unsure of what I just said.
02:25:23 <oerjan> oh wait you were talking about intelligence?
02:25:40 <oerjan> i did read about that one parrot
02:26:03 <uorygl> I have friends named after that parrot.
02:26:12 <uorygl> (Look, spaced repetition!)
02:27:48 <oerjan> actually i think it was n'kisi, found the goodall quote...
02:29:13 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27kisi
02:34:18 <uorygl> So, I told myself I would do non-actual work on a big project today.
02:34:32 <uorygl> I guess I'll do that now, right after asking 0x44 about Slicehost.
02:35:04 <uorygl> Except he's not here, so.
02:35:20 * oerjan wonders what non-actual work is like
02:37:14 <uorygl> It's like actual work, but easier and more time-consuming.
02:37:38 <uorygl> Actual work is harder and even more time-consuming.
02:37:59 * oerjan detects a violation of the ordering axioms
02:38:05 <uorygl> If those two statements seem to contradict each other, ignore the second one.
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16:24:01 <anmaster_l> since supposedly that computer was unreachable for several hours
16:26:35 <anmaster_l> (it is atm running memtest... just in case)
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16:29:26 <oerjan> damn my internet is slow
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16:31:13 <oerjan> ok must have been just that one site
16:31:26 <anmaster_l> okay I know whatever it was happened between 17:15 and 17:29
16:31:53 <oerjan> anmaster_l: end of the world. but it got restarted.
16:32:11 <oerjan> between 17:15 and 17:29, that is. i haven't looked at iwc yet.
16:32:14 <anmaster_l> because 17:15:06 was the last log message (doesn't seem related at all, just something from the caching dns server on the computer)
16:32:32 <anmaster_l> and 17:29:04 there is "syslog-ng starting up"
16:33:52 <anmaster_l> there is 17:12:51 about attaching sdb (card reader in printer, was turning printer on just as I got home)
16:34:03 <anmaster_l> soupdragon, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
16:34:19 <anmaster_l> it's a contest we have, you must have noticed it
16:34:29 <anmaster_l> who can say iwc first (only valid between me and oerjan)
16:38:48 <oerjan> soupdragon: no i didn't
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16:40:13 <anmaster_l> ais523, hi. I had some weird issue with a system locking up. Weird as in: didn't respond for hours on ssh. Later on when I got home I found it didn't respond on console either
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16:40:37 <ais523> anmaster_l: seems rather unusual, although I've had that sort of thing too
16:40:38 <anmaster_l> ais523, however, no blinking keyboard leds for kernel panic, in fact the keyboard was completely dead, even to sysrq
16:40:47 <ais523> could it be a hardware problem?
16:40:50 <anmaster_l> ais523, but there was a log message from just before I used it!
16:41:00 <anmaster_l> ssh had been locked up for quite a bit
16:41:05 <ais523> also, is the system definitely powered on?
16:41:14 <anmaster_l> ais523, well yes, fan was on. and it is loud
16:41:19 <ais523> hmm... forkbomb perhaps
16:41:31 <anmaster_l> ais523, unlikely, sysrq should work then, no?
16:42:00 <ais523> perhaps memory exhaustion and thrashing
16:42:02 <anmaster_l> ais523, and numlock, scrolllock and such should do something when you press them
16:42:19 <anmaster_l> ais523, disk is loud in that computer. but it was just spinning idly
16:42:32 <anmaster_l> as in, no disk seeking and disk light on front of computer off
16:42:58 <ais523> hmm... kernel memory corrupted somehow?
16:43:12 <anmaster_l> ais523, maybe. USB devices I tried to connect stayed off btw
16:43:15 <ais523> you could sort-of explain what happened if some process started trashing memory
16:43:24 <ais523> and hit sshd first, then the kernel
16:43:31 <ais523> except that sort of thing usually only happens on Windows
16:44:00 <anmaster_l> ais523, 1) limits are set up 2) sshd and syslog-ng are both set to have low oom score using the files for that in /proc
16:44:15 <ais523> anmaster_l: wow, that's tunable?
16:44:24 * ais523 idly wonders how easily oom score could be improved
16:44:29 <anmaster_l> ais523, yes, you can say "avoid killing this process"
16:44:33 <ais523> but I'm not talking about out-of-memory, but rather, corrupted memory
16:44:37 <anmaster_l> good idea for syslog-ng and possibly sshd
16:44:56 <anmaster_l> ais523, as for memory corruption I ran memtest just last weekend, no issues
16:45:11 <FireFly> What computational class is required to increment a number?
16:45:29 <anmaster_l> ais523, and it seems perfectly fine after rebooting, even very few transactions replied
16:45:48 <anmaster_l> normally it seems to reply a few hundred in case of power failure or such
16:45:51 <ais523> FireFly: indefinitely, you need infinite memory but very little else
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16:46:02 <oerjan> FireFly: constant space works but only for little-endian ...
16:46:18 <oerjan> constant space == finite automaton
16:46:49 <anmaster_l> oerjan, why does it not work for big endian?
16:47:08 <oerjan> for big-endian you need to save the length of a carry run...
16:47:08 <ais523> soupdragon: incrementing 4, in particular, is finite-state
16:47:15 <ais523> as is any other operation which always produces the same answer
16:47:16 <oerjan> which takes logarithmic space
16:48:15 <FireFly> If we are limited by the length of the input number, and it's inputted in binary (any base would work, but I find it easier to think of it that way)
16:48:22 <anmaster_l> ais523, btw smartctl shows no logged errors or anything
16:48:26 <oerjan> say when summing 111111 and 000000 you don't know that there is no carry until you have read the last bits
16:48:29 <FireFly> Then we could always decrement a number >0 by 1, but not increment it, right?
16:48:50 <FireFly> not _always_ increment it, that is
16:49:04 <oerjan> hm ok even little-endian requires you to be able to read the summands in parallel
16:49:09 <soupdragon> you could say the biggest number incremented goes back to the start
16:49:10 <anmaster_l> ais523, and afaik there is no brown-out to blame it on this time
16:49:40 <oerjan> i'm thinking addition. INC doesn't need that of course
16:49:54 <oerjan> but still, 111111 has problems when reading big-endian
16:51:15 <soupdragon> imagine if it grew legs and could walk then it grows a brain and becomes alive!
16:52:14 <FireFly> But an FSM can increment a number, given enough memory.. so if we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the input, it would need to have a lower computational class than an FSM?
16:52:35 <oerjan> FireFly: but the one number you cannot increment is exactly dual to the 0 you cannot decrement...
16:53:23 <oerjan> under switching 0 and 1
16:53:24 <FireFly> Yeah, but if you're limited to the length of the inputted value, it means you can't increment _any_ value consisting of only ones
16:53:26 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, isn't incrementing by 1 bounded by the length of the input?
16:53:36 <ais523> FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM
16:53:38 <AnMaster> after all it is just one bit more
16:53:51 <AnMaster> or do you mean exactly as long
16:53:52 <ais523> well, if it's bounded to be the same length, or proportional to it, it's LBA by definition
16:53:59 <oerjan> FireFly: and you cannot decrement any value consisting of only zeros. dual, as i said.
16:54:02 <AnMaster> rather than "in a fixed relation to the length"
16:54:41 <oerjan> FireFly: also, the FSM can increment anything, with its noodly appendages.
16:55:29 <FireFly> Well, what I'm thinking about is this, but I'm probably wrong: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint
16:55:52 <FireFly> Aw, didn't catch the FSM pun :(
16:56:34 <FireFly> At least I can't see how one could increment "11", "111", "1111", ...
16:56:41 <oerjan> <FireFly> ... we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the
16:56:44 <oerjan> input, it would need to have a lower computational class than
16:56:53 <FireFly> As opposed to the only exception of "0" for decrementing
16:57:00 <oerjan> why the heck cannot irssi be _consistent_ about merging lines
16:57:16 <soupdragon> Decrementing a number is quite trivial to do in Bipoint. Incrementing a number, on the other hand, would be impossible???
16:58:04 <FireFly> Well, as I said, I guess I'm wrong then
16:58:12 <oerjan> FireFly: no, it's specifically for INC, little-endian, because you can scan input, print output and keep only constant carry bit as memory
16:58:30 <oerjan> it wouldn't work for reversing the input, say
16:58:43 <AnMaster> if you want something that works well
16:58:49 <soupdragon> FireFly I don't understand the execution
16:59:28 <FireFly> The idea is that the input is read, bit by bit
16:59:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: well normally i would only paste from the logs, which works fine, but the conversation was going so fast i though i should provide context
16:59:46 <FireFly> And each time, a decision is made, for which node to continue to
17:00:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, still consistency is not one of the hallmarks of irssi
17:00:42 <oerjan> <ais523> FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM
17:00:50 <FireFly> So, "output" is _always_ of the same length as input
17:00:53 <oerjan> actually LBA can give exponential output
17:01:16 <ais523> umm, I meant storage bounded by length of input
17:01:18 <ais523> and said the wrong thing
17:01:18 <oerjan> under the interpretation that output is not part of the memory
17:01:31 <ais523> thanks for correcting me
17:01:33 <oerjan> (which is the most useful)
17:02:04 <AnMaster> can or can not an FSM implement increment?
17:02:22 <AnMaster> (for little endian, yes I see the issue with big endian)
17:05:00 <oerjan> assuming you can print more than one symbol for a symbol read, yes.
17:05:08 <soupdragon> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/net.general/browse_thread/thread/479e7ea4fcd78cc5/e809b92fdcc92888?pli=1
17:05:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, as long as you are allowed to have a "end of stream" symbol or such and are allowed to output 2 or 3 symbols at once
17:05:34 <AnMaster> you might need 3 if you use a end of stream symbol and want to be able to increment it again
17:06:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I haven't seen anywhere that forbids a FSM returning an n-tuple or list of symbols
17:06:53 <FireFly> http://pastebin.com/mdc465d6 <-- soupdragon what about that?
17:07:18 <FireFly> Execution begins at S, and then moves to the given arrow depending on the next symbol in the input string
17:07:40 <FireFly> The one I linked, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint
17:07:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: i've seen that allowed, although it was called a transducer
17:07:46 <FireFly> It's supposed to be ASCII art of a graph
17:08:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm okay. I was thinking along the lines of a mealy automaton here
17:08:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, "A FSA can be considered to be able to produce more than one output signal per transition or state. Or, some transitions may not depend on an input signal at all, moving to a new state automatically. (These two situations are also equivalent, save for the number of states required.)"
17:08:50 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine
17:09:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm looking at wikipedia, which definitely mentions transducers (and mealy automata are in that section)
17:10:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transducer?
17:10:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine
17:11:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, but plain accepting/rejecting ones can't produce any output at all can they?
17:11:48 <AnMaster> well apart from being in an accepting/rejecting state at the end
17:12:09 <AnMaster> which I think is exactly one bit of information, no?
17:13:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: well, i suppose you could consider the end state the output, for a little more
17:14:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: it seems like moore machines dually have no input...
17:14:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, still that is a finite number of possible outputs, even if input is infinite
17:14:54 <oerjan> (other than initial state)
17:15:14 <soupdragon> * "10011" would mean that {1, 0, 0, 1, 1} would be pushed to the stack, so it would contain {1, 1, 0, 0, 1}.
17:15:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't moore ones like: "transitions based on input, output based on what state you are in"
17:15:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: a moore machine cannot depend on what the input is. although it seems it can still synchronize with it
17:15:55 <FireFly> Well, soupdragon, that was mostly because if it just read the string the regular way, it would have to take reversed numbers as input, and output reversed numbers as well
17:16:02 <oerjan> darn i've misunderstood then
17:16:06 <AnMaster> while mealy are like: "transitions based on input, output based on transitions"
17:16:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I had to learn this for a test a few months ago
17:16:19 <FireFly> E.g. 2 would have to be inputted as 01, but with the stacks you can actually input it as 10
17:16:34 <AnMaster> So I'm *pretty* sure that either I'm correct or the teacher and the book was wrong
17:17:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: you beat me as i'm failing to learn it at this very moment ;)
17:17:35 <oerjan> moore machines that is. transducers i found in a book (math encyclopedia) years ago
17:17:57 <oerjan> so long ago that i wasn't sure if it was still current terminology
17:18:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, well think like this. Assuming you represent the FSM as a graph with directed edges. On the edges are attached conditions. Which you use when you in a given state decide which edge to follow
17:18:17 <AnMaster> well, mealy has output on the edges as well
17:18:24 <AnMaster> but moore has output on the nodes
17:19:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, it seems to agree with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine.
17:19:43 <AnMaster> I agree the text at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Transducers is confusing
17:20:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think transitions on edges are prettier, because then input is entirely dual to output. in fact you can invert a nondeterministic transducer to translate back iirc
17:21:10 <AnMaster> transition on edges? err that's given isn't it?
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17:21:20 <AnMaster> the point was *output* on edges or output on nodes
17:22:36 <anmaster_l> <AnMaster> oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states
17:22:48 <anmaster_l> okay what I say here go through to there
17:23:25 <ais523> it is weird; IIRC, asiekierka was reporting similar problems a while baclk
17:23:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states
17:23:57 <anmaster_l> ais523, yeah I'm having problems seeing why lag would like 1-2 seconds in one direction and 20-30 seconds in the other
17:25:43 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from oerjan: 29.79 second(s)
17:25:44 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ais523: 28.08 second(s)
17:27:05 <soupdragon> FireFly can you make a better syntax for it?
17:27:42 <FireFly> Well, I couldn't come up with anything easy, except of course a graph, but requiring ASCII art is a bit evil :P
17:27:52 <soupdragon> FireFly, every statement is basically, if pop() == 0 (or 1) then goto A; else goto B ?
17:27:59 <oerjan> a languitch of ay readabil syntacse
17:28:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, is that paste runnable?
17:28:19 <AnMaster> if not, what is a runnable version?
17:28:29 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint#Example_programs is a runnable version
17:28:39 <FireFly> As I said, the paste was a graph to help understanding it
17:28:54 <AnMaster> <oerjan> a languitch of ay readabil syntacse <-- you fail at spelling. Possibly this a pun so mangled I'm unable to trace it
17:29:10 <FireFly> AnMaster, you fail if you can't trace it to the row abov it
17:29:41 <AnMaster> FireFly, I'm unable to figure out what "ay" could mean. Only thing I can think of is "aye" which makes no sense
17:29:56 <AnMaster> well "may" maybe. but that makes even less sense
17:30:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, that isn't pronounced that like that in English though
17:30:49 <FireFly> soupdragon, well, the syntax isn't the best, but it works. you could of course use C-style syntax if you want, and simply compile it to Bipoint afterwards
17:30:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: "ay" is the emphasized pronunciation of "a", as far as i've always thought
17:31:03 <soupdragon> FireFly no no just trying ot undersatnd your statements
17:31:10 <oerjan> as well as before vowels
17:31:25 <soupdragon> every line has a unique id, ifZero and ifOne are branches that say which id to go to next
17:31:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't that be closer to "ai"?
17:31:52 <FireFly> Well, yeah, and if op is 1, it outputs 1 in the process, before jumping
17:31:57 <FireFly> and if op is 0, it outputs 0
17:32:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: english doesn't use the spelling ai at the end of native words
17:32:37 <FireFly> Each round of execution is an output of 0 or 1 (except for the starting node), as well as a jump to a new node, depending on if the next value of the stack is 0 or 1
17:32:40 <soupdragon> id: push(op); pop() ? goto ifOne : goto ifZero;
17:32:45 <oerjan> i turns to y quite regularly
17:32:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, TP did sometimes to enhance a dialectal feeling iirc
17:33:17 <FireFly> Nope, I think that should be correct
17:33:30 <soupdragon> so you can write a unary increment then
17:33:32 <AnMaster> FireFly, so you do output on transitions?
17:33:40 <AnMaster> rather than on "current state"
17:34:03 <FireFly> soupdragon, no, that wouldn't work, since it can only output as many characters as you input
17:34:10 <FireFly> Due to the fixed number of jumps
17:34:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, so basically that is a mealy automaton with an input alphabet of {0,1} and same for output alphabet?
17:34:35 <AnMaster> FireFly, was that "uh maybe" to me?
17:34:36 <soupdragon> the input is always the same size as the output
17:34:38 <FireFly> AnMaster, I don't really know that much about computer science and stuff
17:34:46 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mealy_machine
17:35:38 <AnMaster> well yes given that you forbid outputting more than one symbol per transition incrementing is definitely impossible should any carry be needed.
17:35:58 <AnMaster> soupdragon, in bipoint I meant
17:36:17 <AnMaster> well okay: "should any carry for the last element be needed"
17:36:17 <soupdragon> I'm thinking it might be possible to do a binary increment in FireFlys language
17:36:20 <FireFly> AnMaster, yeah, I suppose it's something in the lines of that
17:36:29 <AnMaster> if you get rid of it before that you could manage it
17:36:31 <FireFly> soupdragon, not for values which consists of only 1
17:36:44 <FireFly> Like, incrementing 111 would mean 1000, which is an additional character
17:36:50 <FireFly> It's undefined for any string consisting of only ones
17:37:19 <AnMaster> FireFly, you could of course pad it with a zero for the MSB always
17:37:25 <FireFly> It's only for marking the start of execution, soupdragon
17:37:39 <FireFly> Padding with zeroes, that is
17:37:40 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I assume it maps to the traditonal S_0 in CS
17:37:50 <AnMaster> FireFly, you need to pad with exactly one zero
17:38:06 <FireFly> Since it's only an increment of 1
17:38:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, yes. I'm not even sure you could do full addition in it
17:38:33 <soupdragon> that might work but you need to get started, and what do you do at first??
17:38:36 <AnMaster> FireFly, maybe with interleaved bits?
17:39:02 <uorygl> Campbell, is that you?
17:39:04 <AnMaster> FireFly, can things point back to the S state?
17:39:16 <FireFly> The idea is that it can't, why?
17:39:19 <soupdragon> it's impossible to define the identity
17:39:22 <uorygl> (It's almost certainly not him.)
17:39:37 <FireFly> Well, why would you need to do that?
17:40:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, another state needed if you want just two states
17:40:40 <FireFly> If S points to a value, you just have to point straight to that value instead?
17:41:16 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, can't you have multiple edges from a single node?
17:41:34 <FireFly> You can only have two edges, one 0 and one 1?
17:41:36 <AnMaster> you define them on the same row
17:41:48 <AnMaster> FireFly, and you output depending on state, not on transtion
17:41:56 <AnMaster> well then it isn't a mealy clearly, but a moore
17:42:06 <soupdragon> but if you were half way through a computation
17:42:13 <soupdragon> then you wanted to do identity for the rest of the data,
17:42:51 <FireFly> ..how is identity defined? :)
17:44:09 <soupdragon> turns 11101 into 00011 (read them backwards)
17:44:33 <FireFly> Yup, I guess that would work
17:46:14 <soupdragon> I think AnMasters idea for adding works too
17:46:29 <soupdragon> you might interleave the digits and outpute 0a0b0c0d
17:46:47 <FireFly> And take input the same way?
17:46:50 <FireFly> Yeah, that would probably work
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17:47:22 <AnMaster> FireFly, wait, do you define 1 to be the start state
17:47:30 <AnMaster> and then, what is the output of it?
17:47:35 <soupdragon> im using named labels instead of numbers
17:47:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, so the first state can not produce an output?
17:47:56 <FireFly> S can't produce output, that's right
17:48:11 <soupdragon> AnMaster if S had to output you couldn't write the identity
17:48:38 <soupdragon> FireFly you can define AND and OR in the same way as that ADD
17:48:50 <FireFly> I guess the start would have to preserve the first value?
17:49:05 <soupdragon> I think you can define every function Bool^n -> Crap^n-1 * Bool
17:51:21 <soupdragon> and that characterization isn't good because it only works for fixed n, but you can define programs over all n in this language
17:59:12 <AnMaster> FireFly, so the decrementing automaton is basically http://omploader.org/vMzBuNw
17:59:40 <AnMaster> where state numbers are preceded by S
17:59:58 <FireFly> Matches my hand drawn graph
18:00:04 <AnMaster> (where _ detonates same as in LaTeX)
18:00:10 <FireFly> Except that I didn't print state numbers
18:00:14 <AnMaster> FireFly, that was drawn with Dia
18:00:33 <FireFly> Better approach than ASCII art :P
18:00:59 <FireFly> Anyway, that should match the paste I posted
18:01:04 <AnMaster> FireFly, sadly didn't have predefined connections and such for state machines
18:01:12 <AnMaster> so I had to do circle, arrow and text separately
18:01:26 <AnMaster> instead of having it as a circle or arrow with special properties
18:01:43 <AnMaster> FireFly, you could use graphviz to auto generate from the code
18:01:55 <AnMaster> probably would require just a sed script
18:02:07 <FireFly> Sounds neat, I'll check that out :D
18:02:18 <AnMaster> as in, simple script to generate a .dot file for graphviz
18:02:32 <AnMaster> not sure if neato would be the best layout engine here
18:03:31 <AnMaster> since they aren't well order in a hierarchy yeah
18:03:44 <AnMaster> <FireFly> Better approach than ASCII art :P <-- yes. Mine is actually readable
18:05:12 * AnMaster decides to write a bipoint → graphviz converter and do it in a language that will be highly inconvenient for most people
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18:46:53 <AnMaster> FireFly, actually a 50 line bash script did the job
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19:01:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, do you have any larger example program?
19:07:15 <AnMaster> FireFly, what chars are valid in state names?
19:08:08 <FireFly> No negative numbers, no floats
19:08:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, you mean [:digit:]+ ?
19:08:43 <FireFly> Except I prefer Perl-style regex
19:08:50 <AnMaster> FireFly, is there an interpreter?
19:09:03 <FireFly> Categories: Languages | Unimplemented | 2009 | Unusable for programming | Stack-based | Unknown computational class | Low-level
19:09:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, it should be trivial to implement.
19:09:24 <AnMaster> FireFly, I would recommend erlang
19:09:27 <FireFly> But I don't feel like doing it atm
19:11:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, what is the official file extension?
19:12:59 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash
19:13:21 <AnMaster> oh wait, forgot to remove one unused variable there
19:14:58 <AnMaster> FireFly, hope that is "useful"
19:15:04 <AnMaster> maybe someone should add it to the wiki
19:15:30 <AnMaster> ais523, how would one add http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint
19:15:55 <ais523> is that a permanently up website?
19:16:01 <ais523> just add it with normal external link formatting
19:16:06 <ais523> AnMaster: does it expire?
19:16:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no idea if it will expire
19:16:13 <ais523> AnMaster: paste it in one that you know won't expire, then
19:16:16 <AnMaster> ais523, no clue. And I don't have my own hosting any more
19:16:21 <ais523> like pastebin.ca with expiry turned off
19:16:34 <ais523> and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text]
19:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, another thing: does that count as an implementation?
19:16:51 <ais523> probably not, but it's stilly useful
19:17:03 <ais523> so it will work fine in the external resources section
19:17:09 <AnMaster> ais523, if you can help me recover my wiki account password yes
19:17:21 <ais523> AnMaster: can't be recovered, then
19:17:23 <AnMaster> won't create new, recovery is only option
19:17:27 <ais523> that's why you're supposed to set the email
19:17:32 <ais523> because it's the only way to recover
19:17:42 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I did set it. but the confirm thing didn't work
19:17:43 <ais523> either that, or you'll have to ask graue to change the stored email for you
19:17:47 <AnMaster> as in, I never got the confirm mail
19:18:43 <AnMaster> ais523, still. I should implement a "svg interpreter for this. So you have to do bipoint->graphviz->svg to interpret it
19:20:09 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway. I strongly suspect that bipoint is exactly equivalent with a More automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol for each input symbol
19:20:27 <AnMaster> I'm not sure about the bit that the initial state can't have output
19:20:43 <AnMaster> possibly this imposes further restrictions
19:21:03 <AnMaster> ais523, do you think that last bit affects it?
19:22:08 <ais523> not sure, I haven't really thought of it
19:22:14 <ais523> I was busy doing something completely different
19:22:21 <FireFly> Anyway, now I just got a wall of text
19:22:35 <FireFly> (that is, everything from [19:08:30]<AnMaster> FireFly, it should be trivial to implement. and below)
19:23:09 <FireFly> Uh, everything from [19:18:57]<AnMaster> FireFly, I would recommend erlang, rather
19:23:54 <FireFly> Anyway, it looks a bit interesting
19:24:28 <ais523> wow, that's quite a wall
19:25:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text] <-- I'm well aware of course
19:25:38 <FireFly> diff AnMaster anmaster_l ?
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19:36:22 <zzo38> Computer "RPG" games are not like proper role-playing-games, they are just called that because of based on some rules in D&D and stuff like that (although there is nothing wrong with that). Can you determine which category of computer games would be more like proper-role-playing-games?
19:41:23 <zzo38> Also, some DSP, I think it should have Create Address Space command, to create interleaved address spaces?
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19:48:37 <AnMaster> ais523, did that zzo-visit make sense to you?
19:49:18 <ais523> it's two completely separate comments
19:49:23 <AnMaster> also what DSP is he referring to?
19:49:56 <AnMaster> ais523, or is there some esolang called DSP?
19:50:53 <ais523> I think he's referring to digital signal processors in general
19:51:01 <ais523> and he's invented a command that would make them more useful
19:52:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't see how interleaved address space would be so useful
19:53:00 <AnMaster> sure it might be useful for some bit shuffling operations I guess
19:54:03 <AnMaster> (but something like a "shuffle vector" seems just as useful, like SSE4.something added)
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20:28:00 <fizzie> DSPs tend to have "strange" addressing modes in general; many have a bit-reversed addressing modes for doing FFT fast.
20:28:22 <fizzie> Not sure what sort of interleaving was meant there, though.
20:30:17 <fizzie> Oh, and modulo addressing, to implement circular buffers without any explicit checks.
20:41:26 <AnMaster> whoa, some cars got stuck in snow on a road I drove on just about 15 minutes before the incident
20:41:41 <AnMaster> it was bad then but not nearly as bad
20:42:13 <coppro> probably isn't as bad as it was here two weeks ago
20:42:25 * AnMaster wonders how to translate "halka" to English
20:42:37 <coppro> first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on
20:42:41 <AnMaster> halkiga vägar ~ slippery roads?
20:42:42 <coppro> and it was /really/ bad ice
20:42:50 <AnMaster> well there was warning about extremely slippery roads
20:43:15 <AnMaster> by SMHI. Which handles meteorology stuff in Sweden
20:43:56 <AnMaster> <coppro> first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on <-- that isn't legal to drive with during winter road conditions here
20:44:06 <AnMaster> assuming it happens during winter
20:44:17 <AnMaster> as in, should it snow in June or such, it would be legal
20:44:46 <AnMaster> winter being classified as October-March or such iirc. IIRC it depends on where in Sweden
20:44:55 <ais523> in the UK, people use the same tires whatever the weather
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20:45:02 <coppro> Unfortunately, said law does not exist here :(
20:45:03 <ais523> and on really snowy days, you can't drive anywhere as a result
20:45:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but that is because 99% of the time it is just one weather: rain
20:45:30 <ais523> it rains less than half the time here
20:45:34 <ais523> just, more than most other places
20:45:42 <ais523> atm, it's slightly cloudy, for instance
20:45:46 <ais523> although it was snowing earlier
20:48:42 <AnMaster> bbl taking long exposure photo through window
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21:03:05 <fizzie> Maybe not terribly surprising that there's weathery correlation between Sweden and Finland.
21:03:50 <immibis> [09:59]<cadahl1>looks like you have some snow in norway too
21:03:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't hugin do some sort of HDR image thing by combining images with different exposures?
21:05:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I think it can, but I don't know the details how to make it do that.
21:05:30 <fizzie> Presumably you just have to select the "merged and blended HDR panorama" output option.
21:06:45 <fizzie> That makes a real HDR image; there's also the enfuse thing that can output a "normal" image using different exposure layers for different parts of the image, in a "sensible" way.
21:08:53 <fizzie> I could try take some window-photography too, but I don't have a real tripod, just this mini-one, and no window ledges big enough for it, I think. I could go to the balcony, but it's far too cold for that.
21:09:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I *do* have a real tripod :D
21:09:30 <AnMaster> one that I can actually make taller than me when all parts of it are fully extended
21:09:45 <augur> why are you not here
21:12:52 <fizzie> Yes, well, I don't really hobbyize the photography thing. I'm not even quite sure where that mini-tripod is.
21:14:07 <AnMaster> though before I do anything I need to do something about the white balance
21:15:54 <AnMaster> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
21:15:54 <AnMaster> @ WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @
21:15:54 <AnMaster> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
21:16:12 <AnMaster> I was sshing from desktop to laptop (was debugging why sshfs refused to work)
21:23:11 <AnMaster> oh ffs, seems wrong icc profile was used
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21:27:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, before getting to somewhere where I can actually stitch it together it takes a while
21:27:51 <AnMaster> oh and ffs @ gimp failing to handle 16 bit per channels
21:28:56 <fizzie> Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly.
21:33:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Mini-tripod held by pushing it against the window and eight-second exposure nets you a horribly crappy image, but at least you can see some snow in it: http://zem.fi/~fis/night2.jpg
21:33:30 <fizzie> There's not even that much snow ehre, I don't know why I bothered.
21:33:43 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly. <-- yes this was on jaunty however
21:34:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, you scaled that down right?
21:35:39 <fizzie> Also had some reflectiony problems. And cat problems.
21:36:55 <fizzie> 8 seconds on f/2.8 and ISO 100, to be exact. But the "keep pressing the mini-tripod against the window and try not to move" wasn't the stablest setup ever.
21:37:41 <fizzie> At least the automagic orientation-sensor handled an upside-down image correctly. I'm not sure how common case that is.
21:39:23 <fizzie> For comparison, this was taken with the phone yesterday-morning at work: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8536-1/20091216_002.jpg -- but it's been snowing somewhat steadily since then. (The picture was mostly about testing whether the gallery thing I use shows the GPS geotags somewhere. It doesn't.)
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22:57:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm now blending the final image
22:57:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, how large image file are you prepared to download and view?
22:57:44 <AnMaster> I guess 150 MB is way out of question
22:59:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Have you blended it into some non-HDR format or what?
22:59:16 <fizzie> Lossy compression would be nice anyway.
23:00:02 <fizzie> Speaking of images, the snowfall here was pretty abrupt; last weekend it still looked like http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/20091212_013.jpg.html
23:00:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, deflate TIFF. 16 bits per channel
23:00:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, and that is enfuse, not HDR
23:01:09 <fizzie> I don't have a 16-bits-per-channel display, and am not interested in manipulating the image, so why can't you just do a normal 8-bit-channel JPEG out of it for viewing?
23:04:10 <fizzie> (Away for some 15 minutes now.)
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23:11:08 * oerjan swats AnMaster back into the past -----###
23:11:31 <oerjan> no it was definitely the past when ... oh
23:11:54 <oerjan> well don't remind me, we don't want any time paradoxes
23:12:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, now I have to murder my own grandfather. However he is already dead. In fact he died before I was born.
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23:12:28 <AnMaster> (but not before my father was born)
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23:14:11 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMzBxbQ/winter_2009-12-17_small.jpg
23:14:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: no what you need to do is go back to the cretacious and stomp on a butterfly. that's traditional.
23:15:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, you may want to see that too
23:15:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, but I guess it looks like that in Norway too?
23:15:40 <fizzie> What are those dots on the left side, about two thirds down from the top? A lamp highlighting falling snow or what?
23:16:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think it is a combination of falling snow, lamps and reflections
23:16:12 <oerjan> no, we have had extremely little snow this autumn so far
23:16:25 <oerjan> there is some forecast tomorrow or so, i think
23:16:28 <fizzie> Wait, there's some sort of ghost-image of that second-floor-window window decoration thing.
23:16:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, sadly the exposure is too long to see the actual falling snow
23:16:42 <oerjan> it's quite cold today, though
23:16:45 <fizzie> Reflections, then, maybe.
23:17:18 <fizzie> It might be interesting to see one of those tone-mapped HDR images out of that scene; they always look so unrealistic, yet funky.
23:17:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is contrast blended
23:17:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, also: how do you do tone mapped HDR images?
23:18:27 <fizzie> No idea; there are probably several specialist tools for it.
23:19:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I meant, surely hugin can do it?
23:19:50 <fizzie> Once it's outputted a real HDR image, it's sort of not related to the panorama-tools tasks Hugin is made for.
23:19:58 <fizzie> The wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping -- lists a couple of tools in the "External links" section.
23:20:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I could send you the original raw images if you want to play around with it
23:20:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess your camera can't do bracketed exposures?
23:20:45 <fizzie> It can, though with a reasonably limited ranges.
23:21:01 <fizzie> I guess it was -2EV, 0, +2EV at the maximum spread, and no way of taking more than three images.
23:21:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, with a tripod you could manually do more, and use hugin to stich together them panoramawise.
23:22:23 <fizzie> I took one panorama image as three enfused layers like that, though it didn't turn out that great. Possibly because of the camera movements between shots; still no tripod here.
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23:23:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, well there is http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/enfuse-360/en.shtml
23:24:23 <fizzie> Oh, it was even worse than I remembered; it's just +-1 EV max for auto-bracketing.
23:25:24 <fizzie> I don't want to get a real tripod, because then I'd have to get a real camera too, and I don't want to go that route; I'll just leave aghhh cat get out of there.
23:25:33 <fizzie> Wait, saying that last part to IRC doesn't really work.
23:25:52 <lament> you can get a cheap tripod
23:25:55 <fizzie> Leave photography to photographers, I was going to say.
23:26:04 <lament> cheap tripods are like $20
23:26:22 <lament> and they're not something a real photographer would ever use :)
23:27:31 <fizzie> Yes, apparently so; the local computers-and-other-stuff store has some sort of max-height-1.15-meters weighs-less-than-a-kilo tripod for 22.90 eur.
23:27:53 <fizzie> The "Slik U2000" tripod; even the name says "classy" right there.
23:29:01 <AnMaster> 2 m is about nice as max height
23:29:24 <fizzie> I'm not looking for a real tripod here, you see.
23:29:40 <fizzie> If it's useless, it doesn't matter that the camera's useless too.
23:29:50 <fizzie> The current one has a height of about 0.15 m.
23:30:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, what sort of camera is it?
23:31:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicFZ8/
23:31:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, did your tripod come with a special bag for carrying it in?
23:31:38 <fizzie> It's a lot smaller than what the photos make it look like.
23:31:44 <fizzie> I don't think it came.
23:31:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:31:48 <fizzie> If it did, I've misplaced it.
23:31:59 <fizzie> I had some trouble locating the tripod itself, to be honest.
23:32:35 <AnMaster> I don't seem to be able to locate model number
23:33:14 <fizzie> Mooz has a neato Manfrotto panorama head; the thing you mount on a tripod so that the camera can be rotated the "correct" way, and you don't need to do much image-processing in the stitching phase. Well, after you've calibrated the thing for the particular lens and other settings, I guess.
23:34:22 -!- Pthing has joined.
23:35:28 <fizzie> To partially eat and regurgitate my previous words; the DMC-FZ8 is a reasonably nice camera for the class it's in; it's just that the tiny little sensors they use in the non-DSLR-style cameras have some physical limitations as to what can be done with them.
23:35:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it is quite short when the telescopic things are in smallest position. Around 40 cm or so I guess
23:37:14 <fizzie> The amazing Slik U2000 is 48 cm when in the carrying-around mode. (I guess that's the total length, not height-from-base-when-the-three-legs-are-spread-out-and-in-the-shortest-position.
23:40:12 <fizzie> There seem to be a metric gazillion of other various cheapo-tripods from a manufacturer called "Velbon". Those at least look a tiny bit less silly. (For example the counterpart to the Slik U2000, the Velbon DF-40/F -- see, even the name is more impressive by far -- costs 4 euros more, but the height range is 0.51-1.45 m. And it's black, not shiny-aluminum. See, these are the *important* points here; name and colour.)
23:45:39 <lament> fizzie: unfortunately, the most important thing about tripods is weight :)
23:45:57 <fizzie> More or less is better, though?
23:46:09 <lament> Real tripods are heavy.
23:46:23 <lament> There's no other way to ensure stability.
23:46:28 <fizzie> Right, well, that weighs a hundred grams more than the Slik, too!
23:46:40 <lament> but it also means it's heavier :)
23:46:51 <lament> real tripods are a pain to carry
23:47:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, you just have to spend even more money to hire a tripod-carrying slave too, I guess.
23:47:27 <AnMaster> lament, also you can ensure stability with wide enough apart legs
23:47:47 <AnMaster> it would be incredibly awkward
23:48:27 <lament> you can also tie a sandbag to the middle tube
23:48:30 <fizzie> You can ensure stability by building a brick-and-mortar wall to put your camera on wherever you need it. Though I guess the building materials have a bit of a weight problem. Among other (problems).
23:49:39 <fizzie> I'd like to find some picturesque-enough spot so that I could take a set of night-, morning-, day- and evening-panoramas (for the full 360° circle) from the same point, align the images, then blend out of them a "looping" 3200x480 image so that each 800x480 quadrant has a specific theme, yet they still blend sort-of seamlessly together.
23:49:49 <fizzie> (I need a picture like that for the N900 desktop background.)
23:53:05 <fizzie> It's the screen size of the phone; the background sort of has to be that height. Of course the actual photos can be larger.
23:53:35 <fizzie> (Actually I think I'd like a winter/spring/summer/autumn panorama set from a same point more, but taking that would take, well, almost a year, by definition.)
23:57:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, by taking the whole panorama each day you could make the blending really seamless!
23:57:21 <lament> because the weather never changes!
23:58:04 <AnMaster> lament, well duh he would have to select good ones from it
23:58:16 <AnMaster> also after a few years you should have good versions of all
23:58:31 <lament> after a few centuries it will start to look really awesome
23:59:29 * AnMaster puts this on his todo list under the heading "if I ever become immortal and is bored"