00:00:20 or, product, those are equivalent for modules/vector spaces 00:00:38 so product, without tensor 00:01:05 * uorygl giggles at the idea of the sum of two vector spaces. 00:01:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product 00:01:28 very general categorical concept 00:02:49 * SimonRC goes 00:04:54 or rather, as explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product#Direct_product_of_modules, _finite_ sums and products are the same 00:08:05 Why call it a sum if it's not a disjoint union? 00:08:35 disjoint union = sum in the category of _sets_, iirc 00:09:18 while product = cartesian product 00:09:43 * uorygl ponders proofs that 0 is not equal to 1, and decides that there isn't much of one anywhere. 00:09:51 but sum and product categorically stem from the universal property concept 00:10:08 -!- immibis has joined. 00:10:35 uorygl: peano arithmetic or real numbers? 00:11:06 or von neumann ordinals perhaps 00:11:21 or as cardinality 00:11:59 for real numbers i think it may be one of the axioms... 00:12:43 for peano arithmetic: 1 = succ(0). by axiom, 0 is not a successor. 00:13:35 von neumann ordinal: {} is clearly a member of 1={{}}, and not of 0={} 00:14:46 * oerjan leaves the cardinality case as an exercise 00:22:54 brrr 00:23:00 * uorygl ponders cardinality. 00:23:05 Dedekind cuts are another possibility. 00:23:05 * oerjan looks at weather forecast 00:23:34 well, yeah, that would be as part of proving dedekind cuts fulfil the real number axioms 00:23:34 But, real numbers? Is there a proof that 0 is not 1 for the real numbers that deserves the word "proof"? 00:23:56 as i said, it may be one of the axioms 00:26:06 i think it may be part of the definition of "field". from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics) : "For technical reasons, the additive identity and the multiplicative identity are required to be distinct." 00:27:03 mind you, if you remove that requirement you only get a trivial field remaining, because then x = 1x = 0x = 0 00:27:56 for dedekind cuts it's of course easy too, 1/2 is in one but not the other 00:42:09 Though you have to prove that 1/2 is in 1 but not 0. 00:42:44 0 < 1/2 < 1, as rational numbers 00:43:05 to recurse, apply recursion 00:43:08 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:43:28 -!- AnMaster has joined. 00:46:05 -!- coppro has joined. 00:58:44 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:59:15 -!- coppro has joined. 01:03:50 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:05:24 -!- AnMaster has joined. 01:07:21 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:08:55 -!- AnMaster has joined. 01:10:45 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:11:08 -!- AnMaster has joined. 01:13:03 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:13:23 -!- AnMaster has joined. 01:42:04 -!- uorygl has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:42:13 -!- uorygl has joined. 02:05:13 * uorygl ponders what a blue-yellow color would look like. 02:05:42 it would probably blow 02:05:45 * uorygl ponders how useful it is to try to imagine blue-yellow. 02:06:10 I've slightly succeeded. I seem to be imagining a slightly yellowish very light blue. 02:10:09 how about green? 02:10:25 Green is neither bluish nor yellowish. 02:11:13 You see, the colors, ignoring brightness, can be arranged into a plane. There's a red/green axis and a blue/yellow axis. Everything on the blue side of the blue/yellow axis is bluish, everything on the red side of the red/green axis is reddish, and so on. 02:11:25 coppro: i tried to tell him but i couldn't think of a pun that fit 02:12:25 Oh, "blow" was a pun. 02:13:02 * oerjan whistles^Wblows innocently 02:13:35 ^W? 02:13:49 delete word in irssi 02:14:23 uorygl: That's a consequence of our three-cone vision, not an intrinsic property of colors. 02:15:13 True. 02:16:37 * uorygl looks at cone cell responsivity spectra. 02:17:00 * oerjan sometimes wonders what aliens with completely different color sense would make of our visual media 02:17:37 or even just animals, if there are any such 02:17:59 (black and white vision obviously doesn't count) 02:18:08 There's no reason to believe that the range would even be close to ours, so it's entirely possible that basically everything artificial would be a solid color. 02:18:29 oerjan: Two-cone animals exist. e.g. cows. 02:18:34 Take an existing image. Create two images from it: one whose red component is the original's blue and whose blue is the original's green, and one whose green is the original's blue and the blue is the original's red. Put them side by side, and cross your eyes to as to look at both in the same place. 02:18:38 mhm 02:18:43 Aren't most mammals two-coners? 02:18:49 Anyway, *that*. 02:19:08 Gregor: however they would still see it as naturally as we do if their cone subset is close enough to a subset of ours 02:19:25 s/cone subset/cone set/ 02:19:41 oerjan: Well, except that they wouldn't be able to distinguish e.g. green from purple. 02:20:03 Gregor: it's not being unable to distinguish things we can i'm pondering 02:21:02 i'm pondering the fact that virtually all our visual media depends on our three cone vision and therefore the actual physical colors in a picture are probably nowhere close to the true colors of the thing depicted 02:21:40 so what i'm pondering is actually the opposite, someone who can distinguish things we cannot and so would consider our media to be horribly mismatched 02:22:17 So, looking at these spectra, I see that while the blue cone is pretty much orthogonal to the others, the red and green are quite similar. 02:22:30 i vaguely recall reading somewhere recently that birds have four cones, so they might apply... 02:23:09 So we have a pretty good ability to distinguish red and green, considering that they're apparently similar colors, whereas our ability to distinguish blue and non-blue is more mundane. 02:23:16 but they are not intelligent enough to really make a statement on the issue 02:24:00 Might depend on the bird! 02:24:16 * uorygl coughs. 02:24:42 i think the thing i read had a "most" somewhere 02:24:56 er does the cough mean there was a pun there? 02:25:23 No, it means I'm relatively unsure of what I just said. 02:25:23 oh wait you were talking about intelligence? 02:25:30 Yeah. 02:25:40 i did read about that one parrot 02:25:48 Alex? 02:26:03 I have friends named after that parrot. 02:26:05 * uorygl coughs. 02:26:12 (Look, spaced repetition!) 02:27:48 actually i think it was n'kisi, found the goodall quote... 02:28:44 Jane Goodall? 02:29:06 yes 02:29:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27kisi 02:34:18 So, I told myself I would do non-actual work on a big project today. 02:34:32 I guess I'll do that now, right after asking 0x44 about Slicehost. 02:35:04 Except he's not here, so. 02:35:20 * oerjan wonders what non-actual work is like 02:37:14 It's like actual work, but easier and more time-consuming. 02:37:38 Actual work is harder and even more time-consuming. 02:37:38 ah 02:37:59 * oerjan detects a violation of the ordering axioms 02:38:05 If those two statements seem to contradict each other, ignore the second one. 02:38:30 aye 02:58:11 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:02:10 -!- coppro has joined. 03:03:32 -!- immibis_ has joined. 03:06:43 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:07:06 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:08:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:09:42 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:11:16 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:11:42 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:13:12 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:15:10 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:15:30 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:27:41 -!- immibis_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:32:01 -!- immibis has joined. 06:40:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:00:40 -!- soupdragon has joined. 07:52:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH"). 07:52:48 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:15:05 -!- immibis_ has joined. 08:19:26 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.). 08:19:30 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis. 08:26:27 -!- immibis has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:27:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Quitter!"). 09:05:55 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:16:25 -!- FireFly has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:25 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:25 -!- mycroftiv has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:26 -!- jix has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:26 -!- SimonRC has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:16:26 -!- comex has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:17:27 -!- comex has joined. 09:18:09 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 09:19:49 -!- jix has joined. 09:36:04 -!- SimonRC has joined. 09:36:04 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 10:19:53 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:23:33 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:00:55 -!- Asztal has quit ("."). 12:08:02 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:29:47 -!- coppro has joined. 13:34:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 14:34:02 -!- AnMaster has quit (farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:43:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 16:06:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:09:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:14:52 -!- asiekierka has joined. 16:23:18 -!- anmaster_l has joined. 16:23:43 hm is AnMaster still connected 16:23:45 how strange 16:24:01 since supposedly that computer was unreachable for several hours 16:24:14 both over ssh and local terminal 16:26:35 (it is atm running memtest... just in case) 16:28:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:28:19 oerjan, iwc 16:28:22 hours ago 16:28:23 remind me 16:29:26 damn my internet is slow 16:29:36 use damn slow linux 16:29:56 oh fox 16:29:59 err 16:30:00 fax* 16:30:40 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:30:41 iwc = I want cake 16:31:13 ok must have been just that one site 16:31:26 okay I know whatever it was happened between 17:15 and 17:29 16:31:53 anmaster_l: end of the world. but it got restarted. 16:32:11 between 17:15 and 17:29, that is. i haven't looked at iwc yet. 16:32:14 because 17:15:06 was the last log message (doesn't seem related at all, just something from the caching dns server on the computer) 16:32:32 and 17:29:04 there is "syslog-ng starting up" 16:33:11 actually hm 16:33:17 kern.log is more interesting 16:33:41 anmaster_l iwc 16:33:52 there is 17:12:51 about attaching sdb (card reader in printer, was turning printer on just as I got home) 16:33:57 soupdragon, err? No 16:34:03 afaic = as far as I cake 16:34:03 soupdragon, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ 16:34:10 is what we are talking about 16:34:19 it's a contest we have, you must have noticed it 16:34:27 what is it? 16:34:29 who can say iwc first (only valid between me and oerjan) 16:34:34 soupdragon, follow the link? 16:35:08 iwc 16:35:18 why do you say it 16:35:20 ? 16:35:25 ask oerjan 16:36:26 I asked oerjan and he said: iwc 16:38:38 no soup, dragon 16:38:48 soupdragon: no i didn't 16:39:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:39:57 * oerjan swats soupdragon for stealth changing his nick again -----### 16:40:13 ais523, hi. I had some weird issue with a system locking up. Weird as in: didn't respond for hours on ssh. Later on when I got home I found it didn't respond on console either 16:40:32 -!- AnMaster has joined. 16:40:37 anmaster_l: seems rather unusual, although I've had that sort of thing too 16:40:38 ais523, however, no blinking keyboard leds for kernel panic, in fact the keyboard was completely dead, even to sysrq 16:40:47 could it be a hardware problem? 16:40:50 ais523, but there was a log message from just before I used it! 16:40:51 as in 16:40:58 * soupdragon swats oerjan for wanting cake 16:41:00 ssh had been locked up for quite a bit 16:41:05 also, is the system definitely powered on? 16:41:07 when the log messages stopped 16:41:14 ais523, well yes, fan was on. and it is loud 16:41:19 and I had to use the reset button 16:41:19 hmm... forkbomb perhaps 16:41:31 ais523, unlikely, sysrq should work then, no? 16:41:52 I suppose so 16:42:00 perhaps memory exhaustion and thrashing 16:42:02 ais523, and numlock, scrolllock and such should do something when you press them 16:42:04 like changing the led 16:42:19 ais523, disk is loud in that computer. but it was just spinning idly 16:42:32 as in, no disk seeking and disk light on front of computer off 16:42:52 strange 16:42:58 hmm... kernel memory corrupted somehow? 16:43:12 ais523, maybe. USB devices I tried to connect stayed off btw 16:43:15 you could sort-of explain what happened if some process started trashing memory 16:43:24 and hit sshd first, then the kernel 16:43:31 except that sort of thing usually only happens on Windows 16:44:00 ais523, 1) limits are set up 2) sshd and syslog-ng are both set to have low oom score using the files for that in /proc 16:44:15 anmaster_l: wow, that's tunable? 16:44:24 * ais523 idly wonders how easily oom score could be improved 16:44:29 ais523, yes, you can say "avoid killing this process" 16:44:33 but I'm not talking about out-of-memory, but rather, corrupted memory 16:44:37 good idea for syslog-ng and possibly sshd 16:44:56 ais523, as for memory corruption I ran memtest just last weekend, no issues 16:45:11 What computational class is required to increment a number? 16:45:19 INC 16:45:21 :P 16:45:22 I made that up 16:45:29 ais523, and it seems perfectly fine after rebooting, even very few transactions replied 16:45:34 I think about 5 16:45:48 normally it seems to reply a few hundred in case of power failure or such 16:45:51 FireFly: indefinitely, you need infinite memory but very little else 16:45:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 16:46:02 FireFly: constant space works but only for little-endian ... 16:46:17 oerjan, eh? 16:46:18 constant space == finite automaton 16:46:23 ah 16:46:23 what if the nummber is 4 16:46:37 Hmm 16:46:49 oerjan, why does it not work for big endian? 16:47:08 for big-endian you need to save the length of a carry run... 16:47:08 soupdragon: incrementing 4, in particular, is finite-state 16:47:15 as is any other operation which always produces the same answer 16:47:16 which takes logarithmic space 16:48:15 If we are limited by the length of the input number, and it's inputted in binary (any base would work, but I find it easier to think of it that way) 16:48:22 ais523, btw smartctl shows no logged errors or anything 16:48:26 say when summing 111111 and 000000 you don't know that there is no carry until you have read the last bits 16:48:29 Then we could always decrement a number >0 by 1, but not increment it, right? 16:48:50 so it all looks completely normal 16:48:50 not _always_ increment it, that is 16:49:04 hm ok even little-endian requires you to be able to read the summands in parallel 16:49:09 you could say the biggest number incremented goes back to the start 16:49:10 ais523, and afaik there is no brown-out to blame it on this time 16:49:14 er wait 16:49:40 i'm thinking addition. INC doesn't need that of course 16:49:54 but still, 111111 has problems when reading big-endian 16:50:23 * anmaster_l considers a self modifying FSM 16:50:47 which one 16:50:57 no, the concept in general 16:50:58 Hm 16:51:15 imagine if it grew legs and could walk then it grows a brain and becomes alive! 16:51:21 ... 16:52:14 But an FSM can increment a number, given enough memory.. so if we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the input, it would need to have a lower computational class than an FSM? 16:52:35 FireFly: but the one number you cannot increment is exactly dual to the 0 you cannot decrement... 16:53:02 dual? 16:53:23 under switching 0 and 1 16:53:24 Yeah, but if you're limited to the length of the inputted value, it means you can't increment _any_ value consisting of only ones 16:53:26 FireFly, wait, isn't incrementing by 1 bounded by the length of the input? 16:53:36 FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM 16:53:38 after all it is just one bit more 16:53:51 or do you mean exactly as long 16:53:52 well, if it's bounded to be the same length, or proportional to it, it's LBA by definition 16:53:59 FireFly: and you cannot decrement any value consisting of only zeros. dual, as i said. 16:54:02 rather than "in a fixed relation to the length" 16:54:41 FireFly: also, the FSM can increment anything, with its noodly appendages. 16:54:58 doh 16:55:01 oerjan, is this a bad pun? 16:55:05 AnMaster: yes 16:55:10 oerjan, I don't get it 16:55:11 Flying Spagetti Machine 16:55:15 huh? 16:55:20 soupdragon: *Monster 16:55:25 ah 16:55:28 that 16:55:29 also, *Spaghetti 16:55:29 Well, what I'm thinking about is this, but I'm probably wrong: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint 16:55:52 Aw, didn't catch the FSM pun :( 16:55:56 * FireFly fails 16:56:01 CoolL!!!!! 16:56:34 At least I can't see how one could increment "11", "111", "1111", ... 16:56:41 ...so if 16:56:41 ... we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the 16:56:44 input, it would need to have a lower computational class than 16:56:44 can you increment binary? 16:56:47 an FSM? 16:56:49 argh 16:56:53 As opposed to the only exception of "0" for decrementing 16:57:00 why the heck cannot irssi be _consistent_ about merging lines 16:57:16 Decrementing a number is quite trivial to do in Bipoint. Incrementing a number, on the other hand, would be impossible??? 16:58:04 Well, as I said, I guess I'm wrong then 16:58:12 FireFly: no, it's specifically for INC, little-endian, because you can scan input, print output and keep only constant carry bit as memory 16:58:30 it wouldn't work for reversing the input, say 16:58:38 oerjan, stop using irssi 16:58:43 if you want something that works well 16:58:49 :( 16:58:49 FireFly I don't understand the execution 16:59:21 ._. 16:59:28 The idea is that the input is read, bit by bit 16:59:31 Or, symbol by symbol 16:59:41 AnMaster: well normally i would only paste from the logs, which works fine, but the conversation was going so fast i though i should provide context 16:59:46 And each time, a decision is made, for which node to continue to 16:59:54 ah 17:00:06 oerjan, still consistency is not one of the hallmarks of irssi 17:00:42 FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM 17:00:50 So, "output" is _always_ of the same length as input 17:00:53 actually LBA can give exponential output 17:01:16 umm, I meant storage bounded by length of input 17:01:18 and said the wrong thing 17:01:18 under the interpretation that output is not part of the memory 17:01:31 thanks for correcting me 17:01:33 (which is the most useful) 17:01:41 hm 17:02:04 can or can not an FSM implement increment? 17:02:22 (for little endian, yes I see the issue with big endian) 17:04:35 AnMaster: hm... 17:05:00 assuming you can print more than one symbol for a symbol read, yes. 17:05:08 http://groups.google.co.uk/group/net.general/browse_thread/thread/479e7ea4fcd78cc5/e809b92fdcc92888?pli=1 17:05:11 oh man lol 17:05:17 oerjan, as long as you are allowed to have a "end of stream" symbol or such and are allowed to output 2 or 3 symbols at once 17:05:34 you might need 3 if you use a end of stream symbol and want to be able to increment it again 17:05:51 hm true 17:06:51 oerjan, and I haven't seen anywhere that forbids a FSM returning an n-tuple or list of symbols 17:06:53 http://pastebin.com/mdc465d6 <-- soupdragon what about that? 17:07:18 Execution begins at S, and then moves to the given arrow depending on the next symbol in the input string 17:07:18 I don't get it 17:07:26 FireFly, what language 17:07:29 oh 17:07:33 some 2D one. but which one? 17:07:40 The one I linked, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint 17:07:40 ... 17:07:43 AnMaster: i've seen that allowed, although it was called a transducer 17:07:44 ah 17:07:46 It's supposed to be ASCII art of a graph 17:07:47 thank you FireFLy 17:07:59 No problem :P 17:08:02 oerjan, hm okay. I was thinking along the lines of a mealy automaton here 17:08:48 oerjan, "A FSA can be considered to be able to produce more than one output signal per transition or state. Or, some transitions may not depend on an input signal at all, moving to a new state automatically. (These two situations are also equivalent, save for the number of states required.)" 17:08:49 from 17:08:50 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine 17:09:31 AnMaster: i'm looking at wikipedia, which definitely mentions transducers (and mealy automata are in that section) 17:10:03 oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transducer? 17:10:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine 17:11:38 oerjan, but plain accepting/rejecting ones can't produce any output at all can they? 17:11:48 well apart from being in an accepting/rejecting state at the end 17:12:09 which I think is exactly one bit of information, no? 17:12:47 AnMaster: well duh 17:13:50 hooho 17:13:55 AnMaster: well, i suppose you could consider the end state the output, for a little more 17:14:09 oerjan, well okay. 17:14:41 AnMaster: it seems like moore machines dually have no input... 17:14:43 oerjan, still that is a finite number of possible outputs, even if input is infinite 17:14:53 oerjan, what do you mean? 17:14:54 (other than initial state) 17:15:14 * "10011" would mean that {1, 0, 0, 1, 1} would be pushed to the stack, so it would contain {1, 1, 0, 0, 1}. 17:15:20 why so complicated!!! 17:15:21 oh wait, clock input 17:15:38 oerjan, isn't moore ones like: "transitions based on input, output based on what state you are in" 17:15:45 AnMaster: a moore machine cannot depend on what the input is. although it seems it can still synchronize with it 17:15:52 oh? 17:15:55 Well, soupdragon, that was mostly because if it just read the string the regular way, it would have to take reversed numbers as input, and output reversed numbers as well 17:16:02 darn i've misunderstood then 17:16:06 while mealy are like: "transitions based on input, output based on transitions" 17:16:17 oerjan, well I had to learn this for a test a few months ago 17:16:19 E.g. 2 would have to be inputted as 01, but with the stacks you can actually input it as 10 17:16:34 So I'm *pretty* sure that either I'm correct or the teacher and the book was wrong 17:17:08 AnMaster: you beat me as i'm failing to learn it at this very moment ;) 17:17:35 moore machines that is. transducers i found in a book (math encyclopedia) years ago 17:17:57 so long ago that i wasn't sure if it was still current terminology 17:18:05 oerjan, well think like this. Assuming you represent the FSM as a graph with directed edges. On the edges are attached conditions. Which you use when you in a given state decide which edge to follow 17:18:07 right? 17:18:17 well, mealy has output on the edges as well 17:18:24 but moore has output on the nodes 17:18:36 does that make sense to you? 17:19:18 yeah 17:19:26 oerjan, it seems to agree with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine. 17:19:43 I agree the text at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Transducers is confusing 17:20:53 AnMaster: i think transitions on edges are prettier, because then input is entirely dual to output. in fact you can invert a nondeterministic transducer to translate back iirc 17:21:10 transition on edges? err that's given isn't it? 17:21:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:21:20 the point was *output* on edges or output on nodes 17:21:24 er *output on edges 17:22:27 oerjan: 17:22:36 oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states 17:22:36 also argh lag 17:22:42 hm 17:22:48 okay what I say here go through to there 17:22:50 but not the reverse 17:22:53 that is weird 17:23:03 ais523, any idea about that? 17:23:25 it is weird; IIRC, asiekierka was reporting similar problems a while baclk 17:23:27 *back 17:23:52 oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states 17:23:52 also argh lag 17:23:57 ais523, yeah I'm having problems seeing why lag would like 1-2 seconds in one direction and 20-30 seconds in the other 17:23:59 like that 17:24:07 even during ddos 17:24:13 I guess that is still going on 17:25:06 gnop 17:25:14 Y( 17:25:43 * Ping reply from oerjan: 29.79 second(s) 17:25:44 * Ping reply from ais523: 28.08 second(s) 17:25:46 hmm 17:27:05 FireFly can you make a better syntax for it? 17:27:10 something more readabil 17:27:42 Well, I couldn't come up with anything easy, except of course a graph, but requiring ASCII art is a bit evil :P 17:27:52 FireFly, every statement is basically, if pop() == 0 (or 1) then goto A; else goto B ? 17:27:59 a languitch of ay readabil syntacse 17:28:13 FireFly, is that paste runnable? 17:28:19 if not, what is a runnable version? 17:28:29 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint#Example_programs is a runnable version 17:28:39 As I said, the paste was a graph to help understanding it 17:28:54 a languitch of ay readabil syntacse <-- you fail at spelling. Possibly this a pun so mangled I'm unable to trace it 17:29:07 OLLO 17:29:10 AnMaster, you fail if you can't trace it to the row abov it 17:29:13 above, even :) 17:29:29 And, line*, I guess 17:29:31 * FireFly fails again 17:29:41 FireFly, I'm unable to figure out what "ay" could mean. Only thing I can think of is "aye" which makes no sense 17:29:54 'a'? 17:29:56 well "may" maybe. but that makes even less sense 17:30:04 FireFly answer me please :P 17:30:10 FireFly, that isn't pronounced that like that in English though 17:30:16 or it is some weird dialect 17:30:49 soupdragon, well, the syntax isn't the best, but it works. you could of course use C-style syntax if you want, and simply compile it to Bipoint afterwards 17:30:59 AnMaster: "ay" is the emphasized pronunciation of "a", as far as i've always thought 17:31:03 FireFly no no just trying ot undersatnd your statements 17:31:06 id : op -> ifZero : ifOne 17:31:10 as well as before vowels 17:31:11 I don't know what that means, 17:31:25 every line has a unique id, ifZero and ifOne are branches that say which id to go to next 17:31:28 oerjan, wouldn't that be closer to "ai"? 17:31:33 but what's op about 17:31:38 well, between "ai" and "ay" 17:31:39 maybe 17:31:52 Well, yeah, and if op is 1, it outputs 1 in the process, before jumping 17:31:57 and if op is 0, it outputs 0 17:31:59 alright 17:32:04 so an implementation might be 17:32:30 AnMaster: english doesn't use the spelling ai at the end of native words 17:32:37 Each round of execution is an output of 0 or 1 (except for the starting node), as well as a jump to a new node, depending on if the next value of the stack is 0 or 1 17:32:40 id: push(op); pop() ? goto ifOne : goto ifZero; 17:32:45 i turns to y quite regularly 17:32:46 roughly? 17:32:55 Yeah, something like that 17:32:56 oerjan, TP did sometimes to enhance a dialectal feeling iirc 17:33:02 or does* 17:33:03 I guess 17:33:07 FireFly is that wrong? 17:33:17 Nope, I think that should be correct 17:33:21 okay 17:33:30 so you can write a unary increment then 17:33:32 FireFly, so you do output on transitions? 17:33:37 one that turns 111 into 1111 17:33:40 rather than on "current state" 17:34:03 soupdragon, no, that wouldn't work, since it can only output as many characters as you input 17:34:08 oh 17:34:10 Due to the fixed number of jumps 17:34:13 FireFly, so basically that is a mealy automaton with an input alphabet of {0,1} and same for output alphabet? 17:34:23 Uh, maybe :P 17:34:23 FireFly oh right I see 17:34:35 FireFly, was that "uh maybe" to me? 17:34:36 the input is always the same size as the output 17:34:38 AnMaster, I don't really know that much about computer science and stuff 17:34:39 Yeah, it was 17:34:46 FireFly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mealy_machine 17:34:59 hmmmmmmmmmmmm 17:35:01