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00:02:11 * SimonRC goes
00:05:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You still here?
00:07:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well anyway, you probably also got the message from MKRY so could you forward it to me, I think thunderbird ate it as I was drag-and-dropping it
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01:29:19 <oerjan> ooh
01:30:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's D&D 350, don't forget the new alternative version
01:31:13 <oerjan> (for quicker access without spoiling, the previous one was http://www.darthsanddroids.net/sandalsandspartans/0050.html)
01:32:32 <oerjan> (that page has also changed, as usual when a new one arrives)
01:44:05 <oerjan> wait, what
01:44:10 <oerjan> there are _two_?
01:46:28 <uorygl> So, it seems like this is true:
01:46:42 <uorygl> Practice turns something overwhelming into something not overwhelming. It does not turn something tedious into something not tedious.
01:46:59 <uorygl> Arithmetic is tedious. How can we make it overwhelming instead so that we can practice until it's neither?
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10:18:38 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well anyway, you probably also got the message from MKRY so could you forward it to me, I think thunderbird ate it as I was drag-and-dropping it <-- *checks mail*
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10:27:08 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: it's D&D 350, don't forget the new alternative version <-- ??
10:27:31 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (for quicker access without spoiling, the previous one was http://www.darthsanddroids.net/sandalsandspartans/0050.html) <-- ooh they updated it again.
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11:05:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did ya get it?
11:06:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm yes
11:06:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, *looks for Deewiant email*
11:06:43 <AnMaster> oh it is in the header duh
11:07:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you handle PGP/MIME?
11:07:18 <Deewiant> Yes
11:07:21 <AnMaster> right
11:07:56 <AnMaster> there we go
11:08:05 <Deewiant> Cheers
11:09:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, got it?
11:09:27 <Deewiant> Yes
11:09:34 <AnMaster> also this means mirroring his site I guess
11:09:38 <AnMaster> for the fingerprint specs
11:09:48 <AnMaster> at least a local copy
11:10:35 <Deewiant> I doubt anybody'll be interested in actually "taking over" and continuing work on it, but yeah, mirroring it can certainly be done
11:11:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, at least if it goes away it will be useful to have the fingerprint specs around
11:11:28 <AnMaster> also what does he mean not being around much longer
11:11:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cancer?
11:11:36 <Deewiant> How would I know?
11:11:42 <Deewiant> He certainly suggests he's dying
11:11:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, we all are. At some point
11:12:17 <Deewiant> He's suggesting "now" not "at some point"
11:12:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could be "out of job so can't pay internet bills" or such
11:13:32 <Deewiant> Beats me and I don't really care
11:13:34 <AnMaster> hm maybe it would be a good idea to send a mail saying that one feels sorry for him or something
11:13:36 <Deewiant> Ask him if you're interested
11:13:44 <AnMaster> hm
11:14:35 <AnMaster> wget --mirror http://www.rcfunge98.com/
11:14:37 <AnMaster> was quick
11:14:55 <AnMaster> just 765K heh
11:21:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: Speaking of photography efforts, here's the view from the window next to my office, with the N900 camera in the full-auto mode (it's not like it has very many settings anyway, though I certainly could've fixed the white balance at least) and hugin+enfuse with absolutely no tweaking (had to use it with X11 forwarding over ADSL, not such a pleasant experience): http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg
11:21:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, tried firefox with X11 forwarding over ADSL?
11:21:55 <AnMaster> I have
11:22:00 <fizzie> Sure, many times.
11:22:09 <AnMaster> not pleasant either
11:22:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, is that image HDR you said?
11:23:36 <fizzie> Well, with just enblending them together (with the default exposure optimization) I got http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk.jpg -- doing the fused-and-blended option results in the a-lot-better tkk2.jpg.
11:24:29 <fizzie> Deewiant probably recognizes the place, too.
11:24:42 <Deewiant> Aye
11:27:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk.jpg looks like the snow is contaminated with neon lights or something
11:28:12 <AnMaster> amongst other issues
11:30:06 <fizzie> Yes. Well, there *is* quite a large variance in the lightness levels of the sky/sunshine parts and the shadowed-by-the-building ground.
11:30:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes indeed, and 8 bits isn't enough to represent this properly
11:30:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is why the trees look like they do in ttk.jph
11:30:50 <AnMaster> jpg*
11:31:07 <AnMaster> as in, posturising (sp?)
11:31:50 <fizzie> The phone has a fixed-aperture f/2.8 lens and you can't set the shutter speed manually. (Well, you *can* in a technical sense, it's certainly programmable, but not in the camera application.) The "exposure" setting dialog just lets you add a -2 .. +2EV offset to whatever the automatics suggest.
11:32:09 <anmaster_l> fixed aperature?
11:32:12 <anmaster_l> what the heck
11:33:07 <fizzie> It's a *phone*, not a camera. Most phones have a fixed-aperture lens. Though there are some exceptions. (The N86, or so I hear. And presumably those which stick 8- or 10-meggopixel sensors in there.)
11:33:56 <fizzie> For the record, the shutter speed in source images varies from 1/1000 to 1/100 seconds.
11:34:10 <anmaster_l> 10 megapixels isn't everything
11:34:26 <anmaster_l> I strongly suspect they will get worse images than my 9 megapixel minolta
11:35:09 <fizzie> Sure, but one would hope that they pay attention to other parts of the camera too, if they bother increasing the resolution. (Admittedly it might also be just mostly a marketing trick.)
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11:36:04 <anmaster_l> fizzie, shutter speed for images I took is reported in exif as 6, 8, 15
11:36:53 <fizzie> I think that's in milliseconds, but I'm not sure. The ExposureTime field is in seconds, if your camera adds that.
11:37:13 <anmaster_l> fizzie, exposure time is 6, 8, 15
11:37:16 <anmaster_l> same in other words
11:37:20 <fizzie> Hrm.
11:37:39 <fizzie> Well, maybe it's either unstandardized, or your viewer converts them to the same units.
11:37:45 <anmaster_l> fizzie, was using exiftool
11:37:46 <fizzie> Or were those the long-exposure shots?
11:38:24 <fizzie> I was using "exiv2 -p v print" because they haven't installed exiftool on these work-Ubuntus.
11:38:30 <anmaster_l> fizzie, hm? well I used "automatic bracketing" + manual setting to 8 seconds (forgot what I set the aperture to)
11:39:02 <fizzie> Maybe that's directly converted in seconds then.
11:39:51 <anmaster_l> fizzie, hm with exiv2 I get these strange lines:
11:39:55 <AnMaster> PICT1260.tif          0x829a Photo        ExposureTime                Rational    1  80/10
11:40:01 <AnMaster> PICT1261.tif          0x829a Photo        ExposureTime                Rational    1  60/10
11:40:04 <AnMaster> PICT1262.tif          0x829a Photo        ExposureTime                Rational    1  150/10
11:40:20 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it is; seen with exiftool, those N900 images also show the same units for "Shutter Speed" and "Exposure Time".
11:40:22 <AnMaster> there is no shutter thing there when I grep
11:40:44 <fizzie> Image metadata is a strange, unstandardized and messy world.
11:40:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, exiftool *did* report shutter speed
11:41:19 <fizzie> It might be deducing it from the Exposure Time field, because they're the same.
11:41:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, of course it is possible ufraw messed it up somehow
11:41:49 <fizzie> You can use "exiftool -e" to make it report only things it finds from the image.
11:42:05 <fizzie> Without the "composite" values it knows how to compute from multiple sources.
11:42:29 <AnMaster> nop, not in the *.thm or *.mrw files either (one is a tiny jpeg preview the other the raw file, no idea why the camerate generates those *.thm files)
11:43:00 <fizzie> Anyway, that ExposureTime tag should (if I  have understood it right) be in seconds always; 80/10 = 8 seconds sounds reasonable.
11:43:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, no shutter speed then
11:43:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how does that store 1/1000 or such?
11:43:38 <fizzie> Probably as 1/1000.
11:43:49 <AnMaster> Max Aperture Value              : 3.5
11:43:50 <AnMaster> Max Aperture                    : inf
11:43:53 <AnMaster> okay that is interesting
11:43:57 <AnMaster> what does the inf there mean
11:44:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, is it stored as a fraction rather than a float?
11:44:23 <fizzie> Yes.
11:44:35 <AnMaster> huh
11:44:42 <fizzie> A binary float wouldn't represent most of the available speeds exactly anyway.
11:44:52 <fizzie> The "Rational" there is the field type.
11:44:54 <AnMaster> $ exiftool -e PICT1260.tif | wc -l
11:44:55 <AnMaster> 98
11:44:56 <AnMaster> quite a lot
11:45:07 <AnMaster> that was the base image (middle of bracketing)
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11:45:30 <AnMaster> without -e I get 109 lines instead
11:45:34 <fizzie> This N900 file also has "Exposure Time" of 1/500 and a strange "Shutter Speed Value" of 1/256.
11:45:48 <AnMaster> for the .MRW I get 101 lines with -e
11:45:51 <AnMaster> or 114 without
11:45:56 <AnMaster> so ufraw dropped something
11:46:39 <fizzie> And what exiftool reports as "Shutter Speed Value: 1/256", exiv2 instead reports as ShutterSpeedValue of type SRational (signed fraction?) of 8/1, so...
11:47:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/HYQP?diff
11:47:08 <AnMaster> from
11:47:10 <AnMaster> diff -Naur <(exiftool -e PICT1260.MRW | sort -n) <(exiftool -e PICT1260.tif | sort -n)
11:48:34 <fizzie> Some of the changes make sense (Bayer Pattern doesn't make much sense except for the raw image), but it's a bit strange that Bracket Step goes from 2/3 EV to "Unknown (4266731520)".
11:48:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well so does color mode
11:48:52 <AnMaster> and a few other things
11:48:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is "Bayer Pattern" btw?
11:49:13 <fizzie> The pixel arrangement on the sensor.
11:49:15 <AnMaster> ah
11:49:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the brightness thing too
11:49:48 <fizzie> It's a rectangular grid, usually they put for each 2x2 square R and B on the corners, and two Gs on the cross-diagonal, so to say.
11:50:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, why more green?
11:50:29 <fizzie> It had something to do with the luminosity of it, but I don't remember the details.
11:50:40 <fizzie> Some cameras add a fourth-color sensor there. Red-green-blue-"emerald" was I think some marketing term.
11:50:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh see there: exif byte order changed
11:50:55 <AnMaster> from big endian to little endian
11:50:57 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGBE_filter
11:51:03 <AnMaster> perhaps it failed to byteswap some stuff
11:51:14 * AnMaster wonders if that would result in sensible values
11:51:36 <fizzie> It's possible it didn't byteswap values it didn't understand.
11:52:01 <fizzie> And I'm pretty sure they call that fourth color "emerald" instead of "cyan" because it sounds a lot more blingy.
11:52:38 <fizzie> "twice as many green elements as red or blue to mimic the human eye's greater resolving power with green light[citation needed]"
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11:54:58 <AnMaster> 120 -Minolta Time                    : 22:39:39
11:54:58 <AnMaster> 121 +Minolta Time                    : 52224:42:00
11:55:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do I dump the raw integer value for a given exif tag?
11:57:46 <AnMaster> oh and their data types
11:58:26 <fizzie> "exiv2 -p h print file.jpg" might work.
11:58:36 <fizzie> It hexdumps the tag data values under the normal output.
11:58:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to tease that info out from exiftool, if it's even possible.
12:00:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, that skips some tags
12:05:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah some of those values are in "---- MakerNotes ----" when you use -g to exiftool
12:05:58 <AnMaster> which exiv2 doesn't seem to understand
12:06:02 <AnMaster> and thus ignores
12:06:21 <AnMaster> PICT1258.MRW          0x927c Photo        MakerNote                   Undefined 38270  (Binary value suppressed)
12:06:28 <AnMaster> all the messed up values seems to be there
12:07:10 <fizzie> Oh, okay, Well, those are even more nonstandard.
12:07:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, or at least the majority of the messed up values
12:08:02 <AnMaster> so it failed to byteswap it hm
12:08:28 <fizzie> That would be quite much to ask, to be able to byteswap all the possible MakerNotes structures.
12:09:04 <fizzie> Exiftool can't read the N900 MakerNote tag at all. "Warning: [minor] Unrecognized MakerNotes"
12:09:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, it *could* keep the byte order
12:09:14 <AnMaster> that would be easier
12:09:23 <AnMaster> use whatever the file already had
12:09:29 <AnMaster> at least if tiff allows big endian exif
12:11:40 <fizzie> The N900 MakerNote is exactly 4 kilobytes long, and seems (from a cursory look-through) completely random, except for some bias for smallish byte values in the first 16 bytes or so. I wonder what they've put there.
12:14:28 <AnMaster> mhm
12:14:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, google?
12:14:55 <fizzie> "Maker Note contains some information about the parameters but it is encrypted and encoded and currently algorithm for decoding it is not public."
12:15:16 <fizzie> (From the Maemo forums.)
12:20:33 <AnMaster> <fizzie> That would be quite much to ask, to be able to byteswap all the possible MakerNotes structures. <-- considering that it needs to understand the specific raw format already to be able to convert it...
12:23:06 <fizzie> Okay, there is that. Still, some more extra work. But not byte-swapping the tags at all sounds sensible; then it's the reader's problem to understand it.
12:24:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can fix it with exiftool though
12:24:43 <AnMaster> exiftool -tagsfromfile PICT1260.MRW '-makernotes:all' PICT1260.tif
12:24:44 <AnMaster> like that
12:37:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw in http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg there is something strange going on in the upper part
12:37:31 <AnMaster> broken border
12:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suspect you need more control points there
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12:38:26 <asiekierka> hi
12:43:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: What's going on is probably just parallax movement caused by the phone moving around, and I'm not quite sure it's perfectly fixable without getting the actual meaningful content out of line a bit. Maybe if I added some lenses in hugin so that it could optimize per-image x- and y- displacements, but I doubt I'd bother. Certainly not with the X-forwarding.
12:43:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, I managed to fix up parallax by adding more control points where it was noticable
12:43:53 <AnMaster> was on some landscape picture from Lappland
12:43:59 <AnMaster> I think I showed it to you
12:44:07 <AnMaster> can't find the file atm
12:44:10 <fizzie> I don't want to try manual control point editing with this setup, anyway. Maybe at home.
12:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did you add control points then?
12:44:46 <fizzie> Autopano-sift-C or whatever it's called, I forget exactly.
12:44:53 <AnMaster> hm. the auto adding never worked well for me
12:45:15 <AnMaster> as in, birds in sky being selected and as they moved between the pictures: result was disaster
12:45:29 <AnMaster> stuff like that always happened to me
12:46:00 <fizzie> It creates quite many of messed-up control points, but on average most of them tend to be good. At least when there's not *that* much moving stuff.
12:46:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it tends to be easy to add manual good ones in my experience
12:46:45 <fizzie> It's not easy if window-redrawing when you click on anything takes a minute or two.
12:46:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, and once you have three or so it manages to auto suggest the correct placement of more manual ones quite well
12:47:10 <fizzie> But sure, I did manual control point placement for those vacation photo panoramas too.
12:47:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, you often seem to need to add exactly one horizontal and one vertical line to get a plausible orientation on the output image
12:48:10 <AnMaster> at least I had to on this HDR image
12:48:16 <AnMaster> and they weren't really much off
12:48:33 <AnMaster> iirc hugin calculated that on average the difference between them was 1-2 pixels
12:48:50 <fizzie> That tkk2.jpg is a bit tilted.
12:49:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, it's fish-eye too, no?
12:49:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, also vertical/horizontal is added by selecting same picture for left/right and then adding a pair of point that are not in the same place but rather along the same vertical or horizontal line
12:50:06 <fizzie> I know.
12:50:10 <AnMaster> aah
12:50:11 <AnMaster> ah*
12:53:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw krita seems to manage 16 bits per channel
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12:57:32 <fizzie> I've done the horizontal/vertical-line trickery for perspective-correcting some "took a picture of a floor mosaic at an oblique angle" pictures; there's a tutorial about it.
12:59:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
13:00:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you just use one vertical and one horizontal line it seems to result in rotational fix only, rather than perspective correction as well
13:00:16 <AnMaster> at least I guess if they are at a 90 degree angle to each other
13:00:45 <AnMaster> in fact a single vertical line was enough in that photo from yesterday
13:01:05 <AnMaster> along the pole (or whatever it is called) of the central street light
13:02:03 <fizzie> I guess so; I added multiple in the perspective-correction ones.
13:03:31 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7368-2/p1030278.jpg -> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7733-2/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg
13:05:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
13:05:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, looks worse at the top though
13:05:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly taking one from the opposite direction and stitching them together would have helped
13:06:05 <AnMaster> not sure even hugin can handle that though
13:06:28 <fizzie> Possibly, but you couldn't go there. The picture was taken through the bars of a steel gate.
13:06:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
13:06:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't there asphalt at the other end?
13:07:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly you could have gone around?
13:07:19 <AnMaster> (or maybe not)
13:07:39 <fizzie> It looks like asphalt, but I really don't think it's that. It's from Pompeii.
13:07:45 <AnMaster> oh I see
13:08:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, very low res pic that original
13:08:05 <AnMaster> unless you scaled it down afterwards
13:08:06 <asiekierka> Is there a chance we can get back on esolangous topics?
13:08:09 <asiekierka> Also, what happened to fungot?
13:08:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah where is fungot?
13:08:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, esoteric photos?
13:08:53 <asiekierka> no
13:08:57 <asiekierka> esoteric languages
13:09:02 <asiekierka> like the fact i am concepting one
13:09:09 <AnMaster> hm maybe one could write a language based on HDR merging images
13:09:14 <asiekierka> hm
13:09:30 <asiekierka> you mean like
13:09:39 <asiekierka> it takes 3 numbers
13:09:53 <asiekierka> and combines them
13:09:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: You'll be wanting http://zem.fi/g2/d/7367-1/p1030278.jpg and http://zem.fi/g2/d/7732-1/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg for the unscaled images; I was just thinking of my poor ADSL line there. :p
13:09:58 <asiekierka> in HDRish ways
13:10:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 3 or more
13:10:11 <asiekierka> heh yeah
13:10:17 <AnMaster> or 2 would work
13:10:31 <asiekierka> yes
13:10:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm not sure how to make this an interesting esolang though
13:11:01 <asiekierka> It won't be turing complete i think
13:11:03 <asiekierka> or would it be
13:11:09 <asiekierka> you can increase a number by 1
13:11:11 <asiekierka> for sure
13:11:14 <asiekierka> somehow
13:11:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well I can't think of a way to do computation in it
13:11:56 <asiekierka> i want to make an esolang related to paper cards
13:12:02 <AnMaster> ooh idea (related: panorama)
13:12:02 <asiekierka> preferably one that runs with hardware
13:12:13 <asiekierka> so
13:12:18 <asiekierka> i can use actual paper tape with it
13:12:19 <AnMaster> basically, think of a 2D language stored in image
13:12:21 <AnMaster> there are several
13:12:26 <asiekierka> Piet!
13:12:33 <AnMaster> then store it as one of those weird panorma projections
13:12:37 <fizzie> "Unable to connect" says fungot. I guess orwell.freenode.net is down.
13:12:45 <asiekierka> DDoS, hello
13:12:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't you use the round robin?
13:12:54 <asiekierka> I am on vere
13:12:56 <asiekierka> verne*
13:13:07 <fizzie> No, I want a geographical neighbour, not some random round-robin server.
13:13:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, use equvirectangual(sp?) projection
13:13:25 <AnMaster> and make it wrap around
13:13:33 <asiekierka> hm
13:13:41 <asiekierka> nah im not making a hdr language
13:13:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, this was panorama
13:13:54 <asiekierka> or panorama
13:13:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Besides, the round-robin is DNS-based, and fungot only accepts IP numbers. (Since I was trying to get by with just SOCK.)
13:13:55 <asiekierka> not images
13:14:01 <asiekierka> fizzie: Verne?
13:14:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
13:14:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, so change the file to use another server
13:14:37 <fizzie> Oh, it'll be back. But I guess I could do a temporary change.
13:14:49 <asiekierka> Basically, i wanted to do this
13:14:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, perspective correction makes the image lose some of the sharpness sadly
13:14:58 <asiekierka> [mempointer] <- [some sort of calculation]
13:14:59 <asiekierka> for example
13:15:02 <asiekierka> 0 <- +1
13:15:04 <AnMaster> well, that's unavoidable of course
13:15:09 <asiekierka> would add 1 to mempointer 0
13:15:23 <asiekierka> you can also do
13:15:29 <asiekierka> [mempointer] -> [mempointer/special]
13:15:32 <asiekierka> for example
13:15:33 <asiekierka> 0 -> IP
13:15:35 <asiekierka> or
13:15:36 <asiekierka> 0 -> 1
13:15:42 <asiekierka> that's my idea
13:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think allowing tilting ccd in the camera directly (relative the lens) would allow some sharp perspective correction
13:15:45 <AnMaster> right?
13:16:01 <asiekierka> is it good
13:16:15 <asiekierka> to output you can do
13:16:17 <asiekierka> 0 -> stdout
13:16:19 <asiekierka> 0 -> stderr
13:16:29 <asiekierka> to input there's "0 <- stdin"
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13:17:15 <fizzie> I... guess it should be possible, yes. Not sure if the lens imperfections get worse that way, though. Maybe not by much.
13:17:43 <AnMaster> asiekierka, why not prove if http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint is equivalent of a Moore automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol at a time?
13:17:47 <AnMaster> I think it is
13:17:57 <AnMaster> but there are some further restrictions on the langauge:
13:18:11 <AnMaster> all state except the starting state *must* produce output
13:18:22 <AnMaster> the start state *can't* produce output
13:18:41 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure if they matter for computational class
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13:18:48 <fizzie> Heh, my firewall rules from the fungot server prohibit IRC connections in general, except to that one freenode server. (You can never be too careful!)
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13:19:12 <asiekierka2> here
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13:19:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, would you say this looks like a painting or a photo? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Hdr-Ithacafalls2.jpg
13:20:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, did you see what I said above about Bipoint?
13:20:12 <asiekierka> <AnMaster> the start state *can't* produce output - up to this
13:20:21 <asiekierka> i still don't get what a Moore automation is
13:20:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ah there was one more line:
13:20:23 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and I'm not sure if they matter for computational class
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13:20:31 <asiekierka> well
13:20:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, a Moore automaton is one class of a FSM
13:20:42 <asiekierka> COMPUTATIONAL CLASS means COMPUTING
13:20:52 <asiekierka> you don't need output or input to COMPUTE
13:20:52 <AnMaster> asiekierka, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine
13:21:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well in fact you do here, since you only have a state, no other memory
13:21:31 <soupdragon> asiekierka you don't?
13:21:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It looks unreal, at the very least. But funky.
13:21:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and the state changes exactly once per input symbokl
13:22:01 <AnMaster> symbol*
13:22:11 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I think asiekierka is thinking of brainfuck style IO.
13:22:16 <asiekierka> yeah
13:22:18 <asiekierka> i was
13:22:19 <AnMaster> where the IO is indeed not needed
13:22:30 <asiekierka> but i am not the guy to prove stuff
13:22:30 <asiekierka> :P
13:22:32 <AnMaster> but the IO is rather different for a state machine
13:23:50 <asiekierka> yeah i am unable to do stuff like this
13:24:23 <asiekierka> i am still wondering
13:24:28 <asiekierka> was any esolang done with TTL chips
13:24:30 <asiekierka> or stuff like it
13:25:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I can't see why you couldn't implement it with TTL
13:25:09 <AnMaster> selecting a suitable one
13:25:15 <asiekierka> Brainf**k?
13:25:23 <asiekierka> I think that could go
13:25:27 <AnMaster> I'm no expert on TTL
13:25:29 <asiekierka> well
13:25:34 <asiekierka> it's chips that do various simple stuff
13:25:40 <asiekierka> 74xx's
13:25:43 <AnMaster> I would probably go for a simpler state machine
13:26:46 <asiekierka> like what?
13:26:47 <asiekierka> Bipoit?
13:26:49 <asiekierka> Bipoint*
13:27:03 <asiekierka> well
13:27:09 <asiekierka> there's that guy who made a machine with GFX
13:27:09 <asiekierka> VGA
13:27:12 <AnMaster> possibly. As I said: no expert on TTL or any other such hardware
13:27:13 <asiekierka> and a 6502-inspired CPU
13:27:18 <asiekierka> ONLY with TTL's
13:27:36 <AnMaster> I think I read about that yes
13:27:41 <AnMaster> winding wires?
13:28:12 <asiekierka> what?
13:28:16 <asiekierka> it was BMOW
13:28:18 <asiekierka> Big Mess O' Wires
13:28:30 <AnMaster> got a link to it?
13:28:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, winding wires around metal rods, rather than soldering
13:28:53 <AnMaster> is what I meant
13:28:56 <asiekierka> oh
13:28:58 <asiekierka> yeah
13:29:00 <asiekierka> i dun liek soldering
13:29:03 <asiekierka> http://www.stevechamberlin.com/cpu/about/
13:30:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ah I was thinking about http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
13:31:55 <asiekierka> that too
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13:44:54 <fizzie> Ho-hum, exported a slide containing a spreadsheet object, from an OpenOffice Impress presentation, as a PDF file. The labels are all right, but I have a small suspicion there's something wrong with the numbers: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/numb3rs.png
13:46:22 <fizzie> They're still the correct numbers, but for some reason the digits have changed to the arabic-indic ones.
13:53:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
13:53:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's a very strange error
13:53:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, tell me if you find the cause
13:55:24 <fizzie> I changed the font used in the tables from Liberation Sans (which was the default) to Bitstream Vera Sans, and the problem disappeared. Who knows.
13:56:25 <fizzie> The slide is supposed to be merged as a part of a real MS-PowerPoint presentation, I'm not very confident the OLE-embedded spreadsheet object will survive that. I sent it as .odp, .ppt and .pdf in the hopes that at least one of them is usable.
13:57:56 <anmaster_l> heh
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16:06:27 <asiekierka> hey
16:06:31 <asiekierka> i'm planning out a language
16:06:37 <asiekierka> just... i'm not sure if i'm doing it good
16:06:46 <asiekierka> the esolang is planned out a lot
16:07:17 <soupdragon> is it a REAL esolang
16:07:56 <asiekierka> probably not
16:08:00 <asiekierka> well
16:08:03 <asiekierka> to make a long story short
16:08:12 <asiekierka> you have 2 general kinds of commands
16:08:24 <asiekierka> [mempointer] <- [math operation, like "+1" or "*42"]
16:08:31 <asiekierka> [mempointer] -> [mempointer/special]
16:08:34 <soupdragon> jus sounds like assembly
16:08:37 <soupdragon> not eso at all is it?
16:08:43 <asiekierka> what
16:08:44 <asiekierka> this
16:08:49 <asiekierka> how is something like
16:08:52 <asiekierka> "0 <- +3"
16:08:53 <asiekierka> assembly
16:09:00 <soupdragon> lookrs like it to me
16:09:06 <asiekierka> assembly is this
16:09:11 <asiekierka> "MOV 0, 0+3"
16:09:18 <soupdragon> oh yeah I see the difference
16:09:21 <asiekierka> now
16:09:24 <asiekierka> to do input/output
16:09:25 <soupdragon> you write MOV instead of <-
16:09:33 <asiekierka> you do
16:09:39 <asiekierka> "0 <- stdin"
16:09:40 <asiekierka> or
16:09:43 <asiekierka> "0 -> stdout"
16:09:46 <asiekierka> 0 being the memory address
16:09:57 <asiekierka> to access memory inside of a math operation, you have to use $, as in "$0"
16:10:13 <asiekierka> functions are lowercase letters
16:10:15 <asiekierka> to define a function you do
16:10:42 <asiekierka> [function name] <- [start line,end line,params]
16:11:03 <asiekierka> for example, a function which starts on line 3 and ends on line 5 inclusive, with 1 param you do
16:11:09 <asiekierka> a <- [3,5,1]
16:11:33 <asiekierka> In the function, values @A to @Z are params or temp values
16:11:41 <asiekierka> otherwise they return 0
16:11:53 <asiekierka> To jump you need to make an uppercase JUMP DESCRIPTOR
16:11:58 <asiekierka> A <- +1
16:12:10 <asiekierka> this defines a jump descriptor "A" which jumps to the next line if called
16:12:20 <asiekierka> To call it, you do
16:12:40 <asiekierka> 0 -> A(>x|=x|<>x|<x|al|ne)
16:13:10 <asiekierka> If 0 is greater than(>)/equal to(=)/inequal to(<>)/less than(<) x, it jumps to where jump descriptor A points
16:13:19 <asiekierka> al stands for always, ne stands for never
16:13:28 <asiekierka> Anything else you need?
16:14:31 <asiekierka> so for example to make a loop that decreases cell 0 until it's zero, you do
16:14:36 <asiekierka> A <- +1
16:14:39 <asiekierka> 0 <- -1
16:14:43 <asiekierka> 0 -> A(>0)
16:14:58 <asiekierka> Of course, you could just do "0 <- $0", but... yeah.
16:18:08 <asiekierka> AnMaster? Anyone?
16:22:26 <soupdragon> looks like assembly
16:24:07 <AnMaster> similar to asm in some aspects yes, different notation though
16:33:40 <asiekierka> what aspects
16:33:41 <asiekierka> what
16:33:47 <asiekierka> what
16:33:54 <asiekierka> i wasted 30 minutes designing that
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16:43:41 <soupdragon> that's not enough time
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22:30:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, trying yet another usage for hugin: noise reduction.
22:30:25 <AnMaster> while still keeping image sharp
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22:36:02 <augur> my new favorite quote: "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off."
22:36:30 <soupdragon> that's not nice
22:36:56 <soupdragon> richard dawkins .. fail
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22:39:35 <soupdragon> oh wait that wasn't richard dawkins??
22:40:50 <augur> no
22:40:59 <augur> it was dawkins quoting an editor from new scientist
22:41:26 <augur> also, who the fuck are you
22:41:28 <augur> gtfo :|
22:41:43 <soupdragon>  augur!*@* added to ignore list.
22:43:44 <augur> oh wut
22:43:47 <augur> ##physics?
22:43:55 <augur> word
22:44:21 <AnMaster> augur, soupdragon == fax
22:44:25 <augur> who
22:44:34 <AnMaster> augur, he has been in here a bit
22:44:40 <AnMaster> *shrug*
22:47:28 <Pthing> on the other hand, he seems to be one of the annoying people who not only use ignore functions but loudly announce it too
22:47:31 <Pthing> which is p. awful
22:48:19 <soupdragon>  p. ?
22:48:33 <augur> pretty
22:48:41 <augur> like q. quite and v. very
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22:54:02 <soupdragon> Pthing
22:54:09 <Pthing> hi!
22:54:15 <soupdragon> <soupdragon>  p. ?
22:54:21 <augur> just tell him i answered already, pthing
22:54:27 <Pthing> augur already explained
22:54:31 <augur> <3
22:54:57 <soupdragon> Pthing, why are you making such a big deal out of this
22:54:57 <soupdragon> ?
22:55:01 <Pthing> of what
22:55:02 <augur> HAHAHA
22:55:15 <augur> WHY SO SRIUS
22:55:19 <soupdragon> Pthing, I only asked that to make it obvious that it's you making a big deal out of this -- because I already know why
22:55:35 <Pthing> oh, good
22:55:40 <Pthing> so long as everything's clear
22:56:15 <augur> CLEAR LIKE AN ALDEBEREN HOUND
22:56:24 <anmaster_l> <Pthing> on the other hand, he seems to be one of the annoying people who not only use ignore functions but loudly announce it too ← indeed
22:56:53 <soupdragon> anmaster_l,
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> Pthing it's not like I made a big deal of it - I just told him because I wanted him to get that he was being an asshole and seems mean to let him talk and talk to me if I am not listening
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <Pthing> big enough of a deal to send a PM!
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> Pthing also you're saying this like it's something I've done before... but don't think I have?
22:56:55 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> you brought it up again like it bothered you
22:56:57 <soupdragon> <Pthing> ffff
22:56:59 <soupdragon> <soupdragon> if you just said nothing I don't think I would have either
22:57:09 <Pthing> i'm glad this isn't a big deal
22:57:18 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, since you seem to care about it so much too -- I would have just stopped talking about it if you lot were goading me about it again and again
22:57:24 <anmaster_l> oh ffs. calm down everyone
22:57:35 <anmaster_l> I'm not going to get involved in this fight
22:57:50 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, then why are you going "← indeed"?
22:58:00 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, seems to me like you /are/
22:58:05 <Pthing> italics
22:58:11 <Pthing> are forbidden by the geneva convention
22:58:13 <soupdragon> anmaster_l, the alternative would have been not say anything
22:58:21 <anmaster_l> Pthing, err are // around forbidden? That is what I saw?
22:58:27 <soupdragon> seems kinda blatantly obvious to me
22:59:08 <anmaster_l> soupdragon, You are confusing two things 1) I agreed with the comment I responded with "indeed" to. 2) I was not about to get involved in the "big deal" discussion.
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23:21:11 <AnMaster> yay networking over firewire is fun
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