< 1259626326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259627482 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259633829 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259633856 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1259638428 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259640683 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259640805 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259642740 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259643264 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259643454 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259643555 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259645054 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1259645056 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokoko < 1259645063 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokoko < 1259645075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokoko < 1259645088 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good evening mister < 1259645094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning < 1259645113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's december already! < 1259645125 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weeew! < 1259645135 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy fucking shit! < 1259645137 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CRIIIIMBO < 1259645140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in some time zones < 1259645148 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this time zone < 1259645204 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i could sleep more < 1259645229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time for dyslexics to start ruing the coming of satan < 1259645269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait rue is the wrong word < 1259645324 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like it could be slightly wrong. < 1259645371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false friend with norwegian "grue", i say < 1259645426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only important timezone is whenever rollover ends < 1259645429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, fortunately, was already < 1259645440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait english has grue too, and it fits better < 1259645450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rollover? < 1259645484 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you know where it happens last < 1259645486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sincerely doubt the east pacific has changed yet < 1259645505 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: KoL < 1259645513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1259645521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPEAK ENGLISH YOU INFIDEL < 1259645530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kingdom of Loathing < 1259645535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What's your MOXIE? < 1259645541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah? < 1259645552 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :337 buffed, 262 unbuffed! < 1259645582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BYE ALL OF YOU, SEE YOU IN HELL < 1259645586 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~> < 1259645654 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :December means Crimbo (and Hanukkimbo...) in KoL, which means YAY < 1259645737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1259646311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259650164 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259652676 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259654399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1259654400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259656128 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-84-123.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259656758 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259657591 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259658115 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259661521 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259663015 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259667011 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-42-206.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259667672 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259669172 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259676119 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259677035 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259677182 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-188.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259677398 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259677979 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259677984 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259678674 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259679925 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259682533 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259682997 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-fktbentsegixdyld JOIN :#esoteric < 1259683261 0 :antoine!n=chatzill@ARennes-357-1-133-199.w90-12.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259683337 0 :antoine!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259683389 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259684147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1259684191 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259684245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1259684250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, happy birthday < 1259684261 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy birthdays all around! < 1259684269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1259684281 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i suppose to AnMaster most of all. < 1259684301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok :o < 1259684328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is P(someone else having bday on 1 December in this channel)? < 1259684382 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-(364/365)^n < 1259684389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster, we know how to calculate this stuff. dont be silly. < 1259684401 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11% < 1259684410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I didn't claim you didn't < 1259684447 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed he just wanted someone to tell him the prob < 1259684459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, would this be affected if we knew that some of the remaining ones didn't? And what if you were allowed to switch door then? < 1259684465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1259684671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway we have the random variables X_i for each dude on the chan except you, 1 for having a birthday, P(\exists i: X_i > 0) = 1 - P(X_1 == 0 and ... and X_n == 0) = 1 - P(X_1 == 0)P(X_2 == 0)...P(X_n == 0) = what i said, because these are clearly independent < 1259684700 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_i's are bernoulli distributed with probability 1/365 < 1259684736 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could think of it as a binomial distribution, but i prefer this way < 1259684855 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where independence is to justify equality number 2) < 1259684880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what about leap years? < 1259684889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how does that work with bdays anyway? < 1259684891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1259684919 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most leap people have their birthdays on feb 28th < 1259684924 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiu < 1259684930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259684939 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 1st march < 1259684943 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259684947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1259684986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how would this be handled if humanity started to colonise other planets? With possibly different lengths of day and year. < 1259684999 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, i didn't account for that, it introduces less error than the fact people reproduce different amounts at different months < 1259685006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 1.5 year per *day* for example? < 1259685030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :birthyear instead of birthday then? < 1259685047 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :birth unix timestamp < 1259685054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh good idea < 1259685076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, but how often would that repeat? I mean, every 10000 or such? < 1259685096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that would be too often < 1259685123 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :birthday every 3 hours does sound intriguing < 1259685127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not accounting for leap years or leap seconds an earth-year would be roughly 31536000 seconds < 1259685201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to round it, what about every 32000000 second? < 1259685204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 31 < 1259685211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(plus those zeros) < 1259685247 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259685282 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :33554432 is close < 1259685296 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2**25 < 1259685299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that writing (* 365 24 60 60) is much more compact than 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 (and skipping those spaces is ugly) < 1259685309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh good point < 1259686033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(365 24 60 60)'*t < 1259686052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I can shorten that < 1259686061 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(365 24 60:)'t < 1259686099 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/365 60 60 24 < 1259686105 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(j) < 1259686155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah, J and Underlambda come to the same length for that? < 1259686177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect Underlambda to be about twice as verbose on average < 1259686187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, considering I'm comparing it to J here, is pretty good < 1259686196 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's crazy < 1259686228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to get back to working on it sometime, I don't think any of the half-finished interps implement t yet < 1259686239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's basically fold < 1259686255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(map is rather harder to implement, but that's planned to be part of the lang eventually) < 1259686348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that having constant arity functions is significantly easier to parse < 1259686374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t is constant arity in Underlambda < 1259686382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has arity 2, a function and a list < 1259686409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's defined even if the function doesn't take two arguments, but I suspect taking two arguments will be the usual use-case as it makes it act like fold < 1259686419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, two arguments, one return) < 1259686424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1259686428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :car is '!t < 1259686428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* 365 24 60 60)? Bah. That's silliness. 365 24*60*60* < 1259686442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's silliness as it doesn't generalise well < 1259686456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Kinda joking there. < 1259686461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :365 24*60*60* is correct Underlambda too, though < 1259686464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it's an RPN language < 1259686471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer 365*24*60*60, generally. < 1259686497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless, of course, I'm trying to just operate a calculator. < 1259686507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, what if the division of a year into pieces changed! dangerous mixing data and control < 1259686512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RPN, IMO, is very much write-only. < 1259686535 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank god ehird isn't here < 1259686568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: why? < 1259686576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you know he logreads, right?) < 1259686601 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc he likes factor < 1259686609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, some calendars, like the Aztec calendar, you need both addition and multiplication to calculate the length of a year < 1259686624 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, i know he logreads < 1259686656 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oklofok: thank god ehird isn't here" was targeted to logreading ehird most of all < 1259686681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, I should work on Unlambda some time but I have so much else to do right now < 1259686688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Underlambda < 1259686690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlambda? < 1259686692 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha :D < 1259686694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Unlambda too < 1259686705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a compiler from Unlambda into Underlambda < 1259686708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to have one, but deleted it by mistake < 1259686711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :months ago < 1259686739 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you specifically optimize underlambda and underload for easy mixing-up with unlambda < 1259686758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underlambda was specifically optimised for that, underload's etymology is unrelated < 1259686775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but underlambda is a logical enough name for a purely functional underload < 1259686784 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underload is the one i've been confusing all my life < 1259686826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1259686833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally a tarpit version of overload < 1259686854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and overload is pretty much abandoned now because underlambda does much the same thing but is more elegant < 1259686950 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259686951 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1259686952 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259686958 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT MY PRECIOUS SOLDERS < 1259686963 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I PAID A LOT FOR THM AND THEY DIED < 1259686987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: stop derailing the conversation, it was actually ontopic for once < 1259686990 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's wr for you. < 1259687008 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love derailing conversations tho < 1259687016 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1259687018 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it about < 1259687023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm kind of worried < 1259687028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a weird whirring sound for a while < 1259687032 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then a bang above me < 1259687036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there's the smell of burnt silicon < 1259687041 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1259687043 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did your brain overheard < 1259687053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I think it was the flourescent lights here < 1259687058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I turned it off, anyway < 1259687059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just in case < 1259687063 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259687076 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overheard :P so now we're confusing overload and overheard too! < 1259687088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and overheating < 1259687088 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's with these over-/under- terms < 1259687097 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underhead < 1259687105 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not sure that works because it's not a name of a language of yours < 1259687123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!ul (/)(~:S(*)*~):^ < 1259687130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (/)(~:S(*)*~):^ < 1259687130 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1259687133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1259687136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (/)(~:S(*)*~^):^ < 1259687136 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ ...out of stack! < 1259687140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again umm < 1259687148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (/)(~:S(*)*~:^):^ < 1259687148 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ://*/**/***/****/*****/******/*******/********/*********/**********/***********/************/*************/**************/***************/****************/*****************/******************/*******************/********************/*********************/**********************/***********************/*********************** ...too much output! < 1259687149 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm ~ was... pop? < 1259687152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1259687157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ is swap < 1259687159 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nono swap right < 1259687161 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259687170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I've forgotten how to do loops properly < 1259687175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, failed to generalise < 1259687182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain still had (:^):^ as the basic infinite loop < 1259687193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forgot to add one of the :^s when it came to writing a larger one < 1259687199 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, i can actually still read taht < 1259687201 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that < 1259687210 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that, pikhq's wild theories about rpn! < 1259687219 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are they? that it's unreadable? < 1259687231 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pikhq: RPN, IMO, is very much write-only." < 1259687233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find RPN natural for certain types of statements < 1259687252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Mathematica would be a lot more readable if it was all postfix, rather than a mix of postfix, prefix, and infix < 1259687356 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kinda annoying math notation is 2d, i don't know how to memorize treeform data < 1259687369 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :treeform?? < 1259687387 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my dreamlets is to memorize "schaum's handbook of mathematical formulas and stuff" < 1259687390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((a b) (c d)) ((e f) (g h))) < 1259687394 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes treeform < 1259687424 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's in that book? < 1259687429 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formulas and stuff < 1259687430 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly < 1259687434 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1259687437 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what like y = sin x < 1259687458 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah stuff like sin^2 x + cos^2 x = 1 < 1259687467 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pythagoras theorem < 1259687500 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you can prove everything like that in trigology by converting it to a complex rational polynomial (which has decidible equality) < 1259687506 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these equations are trivial < 1259687509 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's the slight difference that pythagora's theorem is just an observation about the physical world, that's a consequence of the definitions of sin and cos < 1259687544 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not saying i just want to memorize the trivial ones < 1259687549 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think triangles only work because of complex transcendental functions? < 1259687557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: *trigonometry? < 1259687562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard "trigology" used before < 1259687568 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: you can define distance in other ways. < 1259687570 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah stuff like sin and cosine < 1259687587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, bad flashbacks < 1259687600 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pythagorean theorem says if you define distance as sqrt(x^2 + y^2), then distance is sqrt(x^2 + y^2) < 1259687602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the weirdest experiences in my life was walking into a room during Maths camp < 1259687612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seeing three people playing three-player table tennis while chanting trig identities < 1259687634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, it would have been weirder still /outside/ maths camp < 1259687638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was pretty jarring even then < 1259687676 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway even if you're correct, and all trigonometric identities in formula books are in fact trivial to prove in your head and directly see the applications of, there's still the integration formulas, and constants. < 1259687721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: learn Tschebychev's inequality < 1259687731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it implies most of the other interesting inequalities, but is a pain to memorise < 1259687934 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok bull shit!!!!! < 1259687981 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't make math too formal it takes the soul out of it < 1259687989 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pythagoras isn't about square roots < 1259688091 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what's it about < 1259688118 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right angle triangle < 1259688119 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to define distance before you can prove the pythagorean theorem gives you that < 1259688127 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you don't < 1259688155 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alrighty. i'm not following you < 1259688228 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody defines distance = sqrt(x^2 + y^2) THEN learns pythoagoras theorem < 1259688263 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distance = sqrt(x^2 + y^2) is because pythagoras theorem is _true_ < 1259688289 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. it's true with the metric defined with sqrt(x^2 + y^2) < 1259688307 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R can have other metrics < 1259688330 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you saying, non-euclidean geometry? < 1259688400 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know which metrics give non-euclidean and which give euclidean geometries < 1259688454 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok just look at this picture, http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/MathGems/pics/pythagorean_theorem.gif -- this proves pythagoras without any "R" or "metric" or analytic geometry < 1259688477 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the pythagorean theorem is a model that's nice for doing basic physics < 1259688480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original proof of Pythagoras' theorem was entirely geometrical, IIRC < 1259688499 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well basic physics is a different matter < 1259688501 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prof can only be geometrical < 1259688504 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*proof < 1259688528 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there can be no proof that isn't purely geometrical, because there is no inherent metric for the reals, you have to define one. < 1259688531 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have given a non geometrical proof -_- < 1259688547 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did i give one? < 1259688555 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said distance = distance because it is < 1259688616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, that's the usual definition of distance in R^2, i guess definitions prove themselves < 1259688646 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/MathGems/pics/pythagorean_theorem.gif <<< this is meaningless < 1259688675 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's got meaning, the meaning is what proves pythagoras theorem < 1259688682 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I mean, not only purely geometrical, but without an attempt to translate it into mathematical language < 1259688686 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's a nice experiment in kindergarden physics < 1259688696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that image is a nice proof, though < 1259688699 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does physics have anything to do with it? < 1259688700 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's just a physics experiment < 1259688702 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any relation < 1259688707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point is that d^2 = x^2 + y^2 < 1259688723 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're proving the paper behaves according to the definition of distance on R^2 < 1259688740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it proves that by showing that x^2 + y^2 + 4 copies of the original triangle's area = d^2 + 4 copies of the original triangle's area < 1259688749 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the picture of a triangle is not important, the _Perfect_ triangle which it denotes is what you must consider < 1259688755 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you were traveling near speed of light, that proof wouldn't apply anymore < 1259688758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can express Pythagoras' theorem in terms of areas rather than distances < 1259688766 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no not really < 1259688772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: it was originally < 1259688785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably, the corollary to distances is a different theorem < 1259688785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with papers and you traveling all around at different speeds, i'm sure it could bend a bit < 1259688848 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to verify areas of things have to do with multiplication is another fun kindergarden physics experiment :P < 1259688870 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any of this is < 1259688871 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kindergarden physics < 1259688876 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say it is: Mathematics < 1259688881 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not: mathematics < 1259688886 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has nothing to do with: mathematics < 1259688901 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe to you mathematics is deduction trees which a computer can say "VALID" or "INVALID" < 1259688906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my favourite proofs is the one I came up with myself that 1^3 + 2^3 + 3^3 + ... + n^3 = (1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n)^2 < 1259688926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I like the combinatorial proof of Fermat's Little Theorem, although it isn't mine < 1259688932 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics is taking objects that behave in a certain way, and proving that implies them behaving in some other way as well < 1259688935 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 how did you prove that? < 1259688970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, consider a "times table" (a table where the element at (i,j) is i*j) < 1259688991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you multiply out the RHS of that expression, you get the sum of all elements in a times tabnle < 1259688994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*times table < 1259689010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, you divide the times table into areas based on the highest coordinate < 1259689017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (1,1) has highest coordinate 1 < 1259689027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1,2), (2,2), (2,1) have highest coordinate 2 < 1259689028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1259689050 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to (1,n), (2,n), (3,n), ... (n,n), ... (n,3), (n,2), (n,1) with highest coordinate n < 1259689062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say if you take all the values with highest coordinate i < 1259689063 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259689070 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest is just algebra < 1259689073 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1259689073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get i*(1+2+3+...+i+...+3+2+1) < 1259689079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is i^3 < 1259689119 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a mathematical proof, you define numbers that behave in a certain way, and a few operations on them, then you prove those operations mix in an interesting way < 1259689129 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool ais523 < 1259689164 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259689186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the proof of Fermat's Little Theorem (which isn't mine, but is just as cool): we're trying to prove that (a^p) % p = a % p < 1259689199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in other words, p divides (a^p-a) < 1259689216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, suppose you have p objects arranged in a circle, each of which can be any of a colours < 1259689219 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nicest proof for that is a corollary from group theory, but go on < 1259689241 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might change my mind < 1259689248 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interruptingfok < 1259689249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you rotate the circle, you need to rotate it an entire revolution to get back to the original arrangement of colours, unless all the objects are the same colour < 1259689263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's a prime number of colours, so there's no other way to get a repeating pattern around the circle < 1259689272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are a^p-a arrangements that aren't a solid colour < 1259689310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because you can't get the same arrangement twice as you rotate any of them, the total number must therefore be divisible by p < 1259689321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because p is the number of positions you can rotate to) < 1259689345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259689350 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually the corollary in disguise :) < 1259689356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, same proof? < 1259689358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very neat one, anyway < 1259689360 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i think so < 1259689375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is nice, it means we don't have to debate about which is better < 1259689384 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea in group theory is if you have some group, and a subgroup of its, then the size of the subgroup divides the parent groups size < 1259689386 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*group's < 1259689401 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see... < 1259689402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, same proof I think < 1259689407 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those arrangements < 1259689414 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1259689418 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to think :P < 1259689482 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'll leave making this precise to oerjan < 1259689486 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see that one ais523 < 1259689500 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does "the total number must therefore be divisible by p" follow? < 1259689518 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: you have a partition of a^p-a into equivalence classes of size p < 1259689527 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q.e.d. < 1259689558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: because you can divide the a^p-a possible colourings into sets of p, which are the same up to rotation < 1259689589 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259689604 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, excellent! < 1259689607 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the equivalence classes partition the set, and each is of size p, so you have p * (number of equivalence classes) = a^p - a < 1259689706 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the group theory one proves many other things though :P < 1259689723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's two parts to the same theorem < 1259689729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the group theory proof is the second half of my proof < 1259689910 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure it's easy to extend that to the general case < 1259689922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither am I < 1259689926 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: please explain that proof to me in terms of abstract algebra! < 1259690175 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea for the usual proof is you take some subgroup H of a group, now it follows from the axioms of a group and the definition of a subgroup that it's an equivalence relation of the group's elements whether aH == bH, now because each aH is of the same size, we have |H| divides |G| < 1259690193 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one doesn't directly work for infinite groups ofc < 1259690209 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aH just means multiplying all the subgroup's elements by a < 1259690224 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259690305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, more spam phone calls < 1259690327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are loads to this office, I take the phone off the hook until they end in the hope of costing the spammers money < 1259690330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't actually listen to them < 1259690348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what, i wasn't paying attention < 1259690351 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and p divides a^p-a follows from this when you take the multiplicative group of p elements and consider the subgroup generated by a, it's size must divide the size of the original group, but the group's size is p, so also must be the whole p, which means the first power of a that is 1 can be p-1 < 1259690371 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subgroup generated by a = take 1, a, a^2, a^3, ... < 1259690400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: we're discussing the combinatorial and group-theoretical proofs of Fermat's Little Theorem < 1259690403 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you really want = {..., a^-2, a^-1, a^0, a^1, a^2, ...} < 1259690403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and whether or not they're the same < 1259690418 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's irrelevant here I suppose < 1259690426 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, i was talking about the finite case < 1259690450 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you need the inverses, but in the finite case, a^k = 1 for some k, so a^(k-1) is the inverse of a, so you don't need the explicitly < 1259690457 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm I don't like this notation I used with the dots < 1259690461 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them < 1259690471 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1259690472 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1259690481 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to suggest that all the elements are different < 1259690493 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe a^-2 = a^0 < 1259690538 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well luckily you have { ... } there to remove duplicates! < 1259690556 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually implemented using a hash table < 1259690563 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what lol < 1259690698 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna do algebra so bad, i had a few courses in algebra in spring, but i only realized after taking them how awesome it was :P < 1259690821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my currently mushy brain cannot see how the two proofs would be ewuivalent < 1259690829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*equivalent < 1259690841 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm thinking he's implicitly defining some group of sort of permutations < 1259690850 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead of p objects in p places, you have a objects < 1259690860 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe nothing like that < 1259690873 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should do something in Underload. < 1259690888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well an action of a group of p elements on a set of a^p elements < 1259690890 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a book on algebra but I haven't read it yet < 1259690902 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know is they have the same feel, you divide the whole thing into equivalence classes of size p < 1259690941 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of them prove a^p-a/p is an integer :P < 1259690959 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a^p-a)/a < 1259690961 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1259690975 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no /p was correct < 1259690980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: his proof is also a group proof, but it's not the _same_ proof... < 1259690983 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wel < 1259690984 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1259690993 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a^p-a)/a is also an integer, true :P < 1259691028 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh well i suppose that's a good point < 1259691054 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn you, i'm always right until you show up < 1259691069 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOW WHY MIGHT THAT BE < 1259691087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S PROBABLY BECAUSE OF QUANTUM < 1259691801 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i do fun stuff or not fun stuff? both need to be done by thursday < 1259691814 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun stuff < 1259691818 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually food is third option < 1259691847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat first, then you'll enjoy both the fun and the unfun stuff more < 1259691853 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, i have all the votes i need < 1259691854 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259691869 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but i'm sorta full, it's just the food will go bad if i don't eat it... :P < 1259691876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1259691878 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not that full, something in-between < 1259691883 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat it just before it goes bad? < 1259691895 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i'll put like a timer in the fridge < 1259691899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use it for mold experiments < 1259691925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world needs new antibiotics! < 1259691928 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've ben bacheloring it up for 5 days, there's enough mold experiments here already. < 1259691932 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*been < 1259691943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think possibly the best advice here is that asking #esoteric for advice on this sort of thing is a bad idea < 1259691961 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i got exactly the answer i wanted < 1259691969 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean at first < 1259691982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh at first, yes... < 1259691984 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why is it so hard to remember quantumEd is fax < 1259691993 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it even matter? < 1259691997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: it's the uncertainty < 1259692014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why would you ask if you already wanted a particular answer? < 1259692023 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it matter who you are? because you have a personality < 1259692029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except to get statements from us that you could later use to destroy our political careers < 1259692050 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact a very distinct one < 1259692152 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's nice to know which ones are noobies, because i behave slightly differently based on the portions < 1259692236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you need to be polite until they are properly addicted < 1259692277 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259692469 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259692508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that's the opposite of what should happen if a regular has a new nick! < 1259692510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION observes quantumEd's momentum to be away from this channel < 1259692552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his position is now relatively unknown, though < 1259692552 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i was that nice to him, i told him his math was wrong, which is pretty much the worst thing you can do to a person < 1259692565 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if my math was wrong i'd probably kill someone < 1259692568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1259692592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't speak of things too horrible to contemplate < 1259692629 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting to doubt your math after me and fizzie's talk about reals? < 1259692634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you know, it's OK to unbelieve things you previously believed if someone points out errors in them < 1259692641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, you'd end up believing everything, which is even worse < 1259692662 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but there's a certain point in life where your math is set. mine is. < 1259692677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1259692680 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1259692689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a research student < 1259692695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore, /expect/ to be discovering new maths < 1259692710 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i expect new maths to fit my maths. < 1259692741 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using the definition of math relevant to the maths being wrong comment < 1259692783 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259692784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259692794 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i proved a pretty ridiculous micro-lemma today, Q is an identifying code of R < 1259692816 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we call R as a code, points are codewords < 1259692820 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a code < 1259692870 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identifying code = there's some r such that the map x -> B(x, r) \cap I is an injection < 1259692889 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I is an identifying code < 1259692934 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically you can determine a point by which elements of the identifing code are within some distance of it) < 1259692955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:^:^:^:^)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**~:^):^ < 1259692956 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...too much prog! < 1259692957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm isn't identifying code == dense subset of R ? < 1259692972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**~:^):^ < 1259692972 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ...too much output! < 1259692978 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not exactly, consider taking all the intervals (2k, 2k+1) out < 1259692981 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and taking radius 1 < 1259692987 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, if that doesn't work < 1259692994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1259692996 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you can remove some small interval < 1259693016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but any dense subset is an identifying code < 1259693020 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i think so < 1259693057 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if x != y, then there's an open interval between the extremes of the balls around them < 1259693063 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in that open set, there's an element < 1259693071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693071 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :****************/ < 1259693085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693086 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/ < 1259693088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1259693101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*:*:*:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693101 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :********************************/*******************************/******************************/*****************************/****************************/***************************/**************************/*************************/************************/***********************/**********************/**************** ...too much output! < 1259693111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*::*:**:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693112 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/ < 1259693127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (::*:*:**:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693127 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/ < 1259693134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S(/)S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693134 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************/***********************/**********************/*********************/********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/*/ ...too much output! < 1259693177 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: first of all i think the definition of some sort of denseness closure is relevant here, take the union of all closed intervals C such that C \cap I is dense in C < 1259693186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(:(/)~^S^)~*^~:^):^ < 1259693186 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************/***********************/**********************/*********************/********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/* < 1259693195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfect < 1259693196 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we just case about whether the endpoints land on somewhere like that < 1259693223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd look neater in Underlambda, I wouldn't have to write all those operations out by hand < 1259693225 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't it great how things are fun to relearn again once you've forgotten them :P < 1259693232 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"relearn again" < 1259693237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ok other attempt: I is an identifying code with given r iff (I-r) union (I+r) is dense subset of R < 1259693240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: well, in this case it's more reminding myself of how it works < 1259693257 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah < 1259693263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, interestin that there's exactly one a command in that < 1259693267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interesting < 1259693268 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so obvious < 1259693274 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bangs head to wall < 1259693319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I've known the expression for decrement for ages, just haven't written it into a program like that < 1259693333 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. i have. < 1259693339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the chan < 1259693341 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with you watching < 1259693342 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1259693366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, (:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~** is rather messy < 1259693413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be ':`'*`(!01)&* in Underlambda, just with simple abbreviations < 1259693429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably just 1- with full abbreviations < 1259693452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, not (!01) < 1259693455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense for this < 1259693462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(!!()()) it would probably remain < 1259693469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 pushes a 0, not runs a 0 < 1259693482 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: to humiliate myself further, i actually originally tried to prove Q is *not* an identifying code < 1259693485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(!0^1) would work < 1259693495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (!!1 1) < 1259693515 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mentioned this to a prof, and he said think again < 1259693591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(!())~^(!())~^ would be 0`0` in Underlambda < 1259693594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or !! in C < 1259693812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1259693870 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm vaguely wondering if 0` should be a single character, but it wouldn't be used enough < 1259693899 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so in fact the best you can do is to cover "half" of R (measuring proportions using the obvious system based on limits) < 1259693913 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i think it follows from that < 1259693931 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well cover, if you take the closure i explained earlier < 1259693951 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking the union of dense closed intervals first < 1259694009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see... that whole section near the end, minus printing the slash, could be written :@gg^ < 1259694024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a lot shorter than :(!())~^(!())~^~a(:(/)~^S^)~*^~ < 1259694052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, thought of a clever way to allow for the slash < 1259694072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):((/)S)*^ < 1259694073 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************/ < 1259694076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not < 1259694081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):((/)S)*~^ < 1259694081 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************/////////////////////// < 1259694096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what, why did those do the same thing < 1259694129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, they didn't < 1259694137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, appending to the wrong end of the loop < 1259694141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (:*:*::**:*)(~:(*)~^S:(:)~^~(*)~^(!!()())~**:(!())~^(!())~^~a(^)~*^~:^):((/)S)~*~^ < 1259694142 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :************************/***********************/**********************/*********************/********************/*******************/******************/*****************/****************/***************/**************/*************/************/***********/**********/*********/********/*******/******/*****/****/***/**/* < 1259694452 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259694467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1259694769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, seems my issue with the Windows 7 computer that used to be here was actually Microsoft's fault < 1259694778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than incompetence by the IT support department < 1259694782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8388253.stm < 1259694831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually mine might be different, as it happened during boot rather than after login < 1259695397 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these exercises just get easier and easier because students never manage to present all 7 during the 2 hour session, so we keep falling more and more behind, next week there's 3 last week's problems to show < 1259695421 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259695427 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we usually have 7 problems, and a random student is chosen to present each) < 1259695584 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not exactly a foolproof system < 1259696299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I really must be not feeling well: typing is hard. < 1259696355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're tired < 1259696364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I am, and probably I'm typoing more as a result < 1259696378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, I had to type "typoing" three times before I got the first two letters right < 1259696382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Headache. < 1259696391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I somehow managed to spell "probably" with a capital P, and had to correct that too < 1259696396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing "okay" so long as I avoid flourescent lights. < 1259696404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(such as are in every building on campus) < 1259696422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flickering lights hurt like fuck. < 1259696449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like migrane, then < 1259696455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Tis just that. < 1259696463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Migraines suck. < 1259697188 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259698067 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-188.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259698674 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259698699 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-11-29.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259698881 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259699134 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259699141 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259699144 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259699183 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heya FireFly < 1259699190 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :P < 1259699197 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is jcp, I just have two accounts since I have too many channels for one < 1259699243 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, didn't even notice the difference at first glance < 1259700072 0 :calamari_!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259700093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh I just ran into a system that lacked less < 1259700102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, only pager around is "more" < 1259700113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: use vi < 1259700119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has similar bindings to less < 1259700122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just allows editing too < 1259700123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not around, nor emacs. There is nano however < 1259700132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no vi? not even vim.tiny? < 1259700139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something is wrong with the universe < 1259700141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no vi or vim < 1259700163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shell is zsh. There is also ash, but no bash < 1259700172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what the fracking hell* < 1259700176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, something is /very/ wrong with the universe < 1259700189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the same pattern repeats for other programs < 1259700195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coreutils is gnu btw < 1259700200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell it is sane < 1259700208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: contradiction < 1259700219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, "no less sane than usually" < 1259700249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what calculators are available? let me guess, dc and Mathematica? < 1259700265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages... asm and Haskell? < 1259700290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, dc isn't there < 1259700295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is bc < 1259700304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor Mathematica. < 1259700310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1259700312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure what the binary for it is called < 1259700314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just trying to guess the pattern < 1259700323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/mathematica? < 1259700336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it has gcc but not g++ < 1259700361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnu as exists. No ghc or hugs < 1259700363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor erlang < 1259700367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is strange as g++ is generally the same or a very similar binary < 1259700369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor any scheme that I know of < 1259700388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you can use --enable-languages iirc to say you don't want c++ < 1259700400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259700411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, they must have /deliberately/ excluded C++ support < 1259700418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only time I've done that was for gcc-bf < 1259700420 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just made a reduction in the wrong direction < 1259700429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I didn't want to bother working out an ABI for exception handling < 1259700614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, apart from that, hm... there is joe too. The text editor I mean < 1259700615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pico < 1259700629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joe? < 1259700638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, nano /and/ pico would be ridiculous < 1259700655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, nano's bug-compatible with pico by default, apart from supporting more commands < 1259700796 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259700810 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259700945 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you've done gcc-bf? < 1259700945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my project, yes < 1259700955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not finished, and unlikely to be for a while due to RL pressures, and not being top of my esolang priorities (Feather and Underlambda are higher) < 1259700963 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1259700973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but finished enough to feel like an incredibly buggy finished program rather than an unfinished one < 1259700993 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you compile c to bf? < 1259701005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259701012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in two stages < 1259701019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I compile C to ABI, which is an invented asm-like language < 1259701021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then ABI to BF < 1259701026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first compiler is done, the second isn't < 1259701033 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat! < 1259701055 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to figure out gcc a few times but I always got bogged down < 1259701067 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats on getting past that point :) < 1259701079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even found a bug in gcc, but it was in a codepath that isn't used for any of the architectures they support < 1259701085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so arguably, it isn't a bug, and probably they don't care < 1259701093 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is ABI something you created? < 1259701102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259701110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of it maps onto BF pretty simply < 1259701141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. tadd2.8 %r0, %r1, %r2 would be (with the pointer at r0) [-<+<+>>] < 1259701157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some bits, e.g. compare, multiplication, and, are harder < 1259701175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it's about as powerful as a typical RISC assembly language < 1259701177 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may I see a buggy copy? < 1259701179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but designed to be good for BF in particular < 1259701193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_: yes, except for the difficulty of transferring the files in question < 1259701209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire gcc source distribution is rather large, as is that for newlib < 1259701215 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a bf assembly language a while back and tried to port it, but again, like I say I got stuck hehe < 1259701234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not entirely sure if it would work if you downloaded a current gcc version, rather than the one I'm working with < 1259701239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, gcc-bf isn't on this computer < 1259701250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have a computer with it on, 'twould just take a while to boot < 1259701272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION boots it < 1259701276 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well honestly I was just going to look at it to understand < 1259701294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the gcc build process is truly insane < 1259701303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much so, that I have my own parallel build process that is also insane < 1259701315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and runs it a bit at a time, occasionally using Perl scripts to modify gcc's own build process < 1259701343 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds about right for gcc < 1259701359 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have an incredible amount of patience < 1259701369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: gcc .md files are all polygolts < 1259701372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*polyglots < 1259701377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between two similar but not identical languages < 1259701384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Patch of GCC, rather than full source tree? < 1259701390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still probably large, but less so. < 1259701401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly confined to one directory < 1259701413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, GCC's build system is freaking insane. < 1259701425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few patches to the build system, lying to it to tell it that bf-unknown-none is a processor supported by GNU < 1259701452 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your register size, 32 bits? < 1259701457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 < 1259701467 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nice < 1259701467 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, int=32 < 1259701473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, ideally it is a supported processor. :P < 1259701477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an int takes up 4 registers < 1259701499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the binutils probably don't much care for it... < 1259701519 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259701524 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binutils are custom < 1259701530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1259701532 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ld does the actual assembling < 1259701538 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ar is a wrapper around tar < 1259701542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1259701545 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1259701577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ranlib is a noop? < 1259701658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259701667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it's a no-op even on most sane systems < 1259701701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a no-op on Linux. < 1259701707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a no-op on Mac OS X.' < 1259701726 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wots all this about bf-gcc now? < 1259701734 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it still maintained/developed? < 1259701754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is such a shame that the ar format is not even remotely standardised. < 1259701772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, ais523 still develops it, just not a whole lot. < 1259701779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: not really; I haven't abandoned on it, but it's so far down my list of priorities there's unlikely to be progress for years < 1259701916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you made the diff against base gcc available < 1259701926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm trying to do that right now < 1259701927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone else could set up a repo and take over < 1259701935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and tell us what version the base gcc is < 1259701945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can guess from the build script < 1259701953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it has the exact version number and date in < 1259702006 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a bf hello world it made? < 1259702006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would probably begin by porting it to modern gcc. to avoid all hell breaking loose. Well I guess less of a risk of that actually when it isn't bootstrapped < 1259702027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: bootstrapping it would be insane < 1259702028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, that's several MB when encoded with runlength < 1259702031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes < 1259702034 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1259702062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, I have seen it < 1259702064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the need to add in a runtime, etc < 1259702065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if I have it around < 1259702067 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bootstrapping what? < 1259702071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_: gcc < 1259702076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf compiled to bf < 1259702077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that would imply compiling gcc into brainfuck < 1259702077 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah it's okay I'll believe you < 1259702078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be insane < 1259702113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/akqbhj/gcc-bf.tar.gz is the diff against gcc and newlib, and the build script < 1259702114 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bootstrapped my bf assembler, but that's at a completely different scale hehe < 1259702130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I haven't got a hello world to work that uses either stdio, or unix syscalls < 1259702138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1259702150 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the famous several-MB one requires use of __bf_out < 1259702152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you know if it is gcc->abi or abi->bf issue? < 1259702162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second, almost certainly < 1259702166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually it seems to be 435K < 1259702170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's less-well tested, also less complete < 1259702175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was several MB if *not* RLL encoded < 1259702176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1259702184 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks! :) < 1259702186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just found it < 1259702188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf assumes that runlength is optimised < 1259702209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you have an ABI interpreter? < 1259702216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or any other useful testing tools < 1259702220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source tarballs you need: gcc-4.2-20070719.tar.lzma newlib-1.16.0.tar.gz < 1259702221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1259702226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there is one testing tool < 1259702229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1259702233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bfrle, my BF interp < 1259702237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, link? < 1259702238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is designed specifically to debug gcc-bf < 1259702244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link = not online, let me tarball it up too < 1259702264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no need, it's in the tarball I've already posted < 1259702271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the patches/ dir < 1259702277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does this support out of tree builds? < 1259702299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the build system is very inflexible < 1259702301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the really major thing that GCC-BF misses is functioning syscalls? (and therefore most of libc) < 1259702311 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it always cp -rs the original tree < 1259702313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then modifies it < 1259702329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and ABI->BF stuff < 1259702329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it builds gcc and newlib in a mix of in-tree and out-of-tree < 1259702331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1259702335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copying the resulting files into a fourth tree < 1259702339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the one you actually run it from < 1259702344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blink* < 1259702348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, the really major thing it's missing is multiplication < 1259702359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... Multiplication. Really. < 1259702360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, I suspect, the reason that the syscalls aren't functioning < 1259702370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I told you I hadn't finished < 1259702379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1259702379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/you/ try writing a 64-bit multiply in BF < 1259702385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh I was just adding it to a bzr repo < 1259702394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out it was already darcsed < 1259702394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has some modicum of efficiency < 1259702398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it isn't, really < 1259702402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that darcs repo isn't a proper repo < 1259702406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding patches/config-bf/_darcs/inventory < 1259702408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? < 1259702409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically used as a versions repository < 1259702416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1259702417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I presume you have 64-bit adding? < 1259702418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, you commit code after you write it < 1259702421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, of course < 1259702424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes < 1259702432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that repo, I was commiting just before I did something potentially disasterous < 1259702440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I could roll back to before what I did < 1259702446 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. That makes it only *quite* painful. < 1259702447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ignore all the documentation in that tree, it's wrong < 1259702488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's accuratish enough to give an idea of what I'm doing, but not the details < 1259702488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the comments in the source, OTOH, are up to date < 1259702488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... so can I use darcs on it < 1259702488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1259702490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is there some crucial part missing < 1259702499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't expect the version history to make any sense, unless you're drunk at the time < 1259702507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems only part of patches/ has _darcs? < 1259702511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top dir does not < 1259702514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1259702514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: correct < 1259702519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only config-bf does? < 1259702522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the gcc bit that was in darcs < 1259702529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my suggestion is that you rm -r the _darcs dir < 1259702535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, only config-bf has darcs stuff < 1259702535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, version with any versioning system you like < 1259702539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1259702545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I will use bzr as you probably know < 1259702551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind that at all, why should I? < 1259702610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-4.2-20070719 hm < 1259702643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that based on upstream or some distro? < 1259702659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because only gcc-4.2-20070719 I can find is from ubuntu bug reports < 1259702668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what I got by doing apt-get source gcc-source < 1259702670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1259702679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably a nightly < 1259702702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you remember what version of debian or ubuntu you did that on? < 1259702704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering my jaunty has 4.3.3 < 1259702708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 4.2* < 1259702743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but considering the date, 7.10 seems plausible < 1259702752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what was that one called? < 1259702763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feisty < 1259702773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1259702792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about gutsy? would that match? < 1259702797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it match better with googling < 1259702804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, miscounted < 1259702806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was gutsy < 1259702813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for a timeline < 1259702925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why is lucid 10.04? rather than 10.0 < 1259702934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :date-based < 1259702937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :april 2010 < 1259702938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259702951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if somehow they're late with the release, it'd be 10.05 < 1259702965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pressure to release every 6 months is one of the things that leaves Ubuntu rather buggy < 1259702972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the reason for 6.06? < 1259702985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two months of delay < 1259703000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which one will be the next LTS? < 1259703010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to aim for next LTS and stay on that < 1259703073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think lucid is an LTS < 1259703102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1259703111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I guess karmic before then for a bit < 1259703125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, was jaunty unusually stable or what? < 1259703134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was stabler than karmic, at least < 1259703139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259703145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different versions seem to be stable for different people, for some reason < 1259703158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, the wireless works even better with karmic than it did with jaunty < 1259703171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with earlier versions it was somewhat broken) < 1259703172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would say my gentoo system is one of the most stable systems I owner < 1259703174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :owned* < 1259703187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact my arch system manages to be bleeding edge *and* stable < 1259703234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is config-bf? < 1259703258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a directory that becomes config/bf inside gcc itself < 1259703263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1259703269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains all the patches to gcc that deal with actually doing interesting things < 1259703273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to build tweaks, etc < 1259703281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the darcs command to show full log? < 1259703286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darcs changes < 1259703289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you won't get much out of it < 1259703293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259703319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is cc0 < 1259703337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pseudo-register that refers to the flags < 1259703340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like overflow, carry, etc < 1259703350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf has a physical cc0, also cc1, cc2, and cc3 < 1259703355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are used as temporaries when doing comparisons < 1259703366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is collect2? < 1259703371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a wrapper for ld < 1259703379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually named ld, normally, when it's installed < 1259703388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it deals with things like constructors in C++ < 1259703393 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by wrapping around main < 1259703402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you use little endian? < 1259703402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1259703406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an awful hack, and something that gets in my way a lot, and that I don't actually need < 1259703415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I use little-endian to make casting easier < 1259703429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1259703448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(short)x is in the same memory location as (long)x < 1259703463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use big-endian, you have to write code for downcasting < 1259703478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the main theoretical advantage for little-endian, as far as I know < 1259703479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259703481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, please explain the purpose of patch-libgcc-mk.pl to someone who don't know perl < 1259703494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it patches the build system < 1259703500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why a perl script < 1259703501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that < 1259703502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have used sed instead, but the Perl is cleaner < 1259703508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just a diff? < 1259703517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, libgcc contains implementations of things like floating-point emulation < 1259703534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the build script for libgcc is generated dynamically during the compilation of gcc < 1259703539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so doesn't exist initially, to be patched < 1259703549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you consider doing an llvm backend instead? < 1259703555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not at the time < 1259703558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might, at some point < 1259703565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, since llvm supports PIC16 and such even < 1259703584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, gcc assumes, for some reason, that the largest possible integer is twice the native word size < 1259703604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a strange assumption to make, given that __int128_t exists and it compiles on 32-bit systems < 1259703611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh? < 1259703615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's even violating its own assumptions there < 1259703618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work then < 1259703630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably there's a separate hack in an entirely different part of the code < 1259703639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, of course llvm backend would imply C++ that really feels like C++ < 1259703651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, one of the things that libgcc does is things like 64-bit operations in terms of 32-bit operations < 1259703667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea, basically, was to get it to also do 32-bit in terms of 16-bit, and 16-bit in terms of 8-bit < 1259703687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means I don't need to write an enormous number of cases in the linker < 1259703697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like 64-bit multiplication are bad enough < 1259703717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is newlib from gutsy too? < 1259703725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1259703738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as ehird will tell you, I rarely look for things on the Web < 1259703742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and did you use the patches from ubuntu? < 1259703751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely no in the case of gcc < 1259703756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for newlib? < 1259703759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the tarball I downloaded contained another tarball < 1259703762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for newlib, I'm actually not sur < 1259703764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sure < 1259703788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch nested tarballs < 1259703796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1259703826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is libbf for? < 1259703836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syscalls < 1259703849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically the libc < 1259703855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, newlib is the libc < 1259703880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't write a libc entirely from scratch < 1259703880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it would be unable to do I/O, etc < 1259703880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's all the bits of libc that can't be written in pure C < 1259703893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libbf is, instead, written in magic < 1259703899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : but you can't write a libc entirely from scratch <-- why not? it would just take some time < 1259703912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I/O, etc < 1259703917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you need inline ASM < 1259703919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something else similar < 1259703923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well. that isn't what you said < 1259703932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, in pure C < 1259703935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259703942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it makes sense < 1259703947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, some of it is pure C < 1259703955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the filesystem is a linked list stored on the heap < 1259703962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C standard requires files < 1259703968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't require them to persist past the end of the program < 1259703969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is the ABI documented anywhere? < 1259703996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which? < 1259704002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ABI the asm, or ABI the application binary interface? < 1259704014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interface is documented, to some extent, in comments in bf.g < 1259704014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, your own fault for confusing it < 1259704015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1259704017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bf.h < 1259704020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both would be useful < 1259704020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I did that deliberately < 1259704027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I meant asm in this case < 1259704029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the asm is documented, to some extent, in bf-ld < 1259704036 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_operations <<< look at the definition of prefix-closed, is it just me or does that make no sense? < 1259704039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where is the asm -> bf translator? < 1259704043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the perl bf-ld? < 1259704048 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259704051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so I will probably rewrite it < 1259704051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf-ld does most of the actual work < 1259704056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be in python or something < 1259704064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that'd be rewriting more than half the project < 1259704071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I don't know perl < 1259704073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, don't let that stop you if you really want to < 1259704073 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance Pref({aaa}) would be the empty set < 1259704093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is your longjmp stuff tested? < 1259704115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, and indeed I think it doesn't work < 1259704115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took long enough to get just regular function calls working < 1259704115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? I have no clue about how it should work really < 1259704120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same way it's implemented in any other language < 1259704127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "any other target" < 1259704130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean < 1259704130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1259704131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1259704138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that in gcc-bf, you also have to clear the frame pointer stack < 1259704140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue how it usually work < 1259704147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait what? < 1259704149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is something that AFAIK no processor has in hardware < 1259704153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it's implemented as a linked list instead < 1259704172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what would happen with -fomit-frame-pointer in gcc-bf? < 1259704179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think you can actually do that < 1259704187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, the frame pointer doesn't take up a register < 1259704188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why do you need the frame pointer? < 1259704205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can return from functions when you use alloca or VLAs < 1259704221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm? how does "normal" targets handle that? < 1259704232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding a frame pointer for functions that use them, IIRC < 1259704244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omit-frame-pointer doesn't necessarily omit it everywhere < 1259704246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only when it's safe < 1259704249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not do that? < 1259704290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, there is a hardware frame pointer stack < 1259704293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a lot lot more efficient than storing the pointer as an intege < 1259704295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*integer < 1259704302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dereferencing a numeric pointer is slow slow slow in BF < 1259704312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just doing [<] until you find a 0 is much faster < 1259704313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259704348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it would reduce the computational class < 1259704353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-abi < 1259704353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Output the ABI produced by the link as well as the final brainfuck < 1259704353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code. < 1259704353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-asm < 1259704353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Output the low-level ABI that shows what the ABI was transformed to < 1259704354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just before final ABI output. < 1259704356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259704358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf has no problems allowing you to go over the top of pointer-accessible memory < 1259704367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't actually overflow the stack < 1259704382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, you mustn't ask for or dereference a pointer to stack elements above the top of memory < 1259704402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what happens to the frame pointer in callees? like a VLA-allocating function calling one using alloca? < 1259704413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stays on the frame pointer stack, obviously < 1259704424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, on other processors, it gets saved in a register somewhere, I think < 1259704424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you said register I thought? < 1259704435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the registers get mapped to memory when you call a function anyway < 1259704448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, like uh sparc? < 1259704454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean manually < 1259704457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259704462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to preserve the content of a register across a function call < 1259704472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be it the frame pointer or anything else < 1259704477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you copy it to memory < 1259704479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, aren't usually half of them caller saved and half callee-saved? < 1259704480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1259704480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :standard compiler design < 1259704485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually, correct in this case too < 1259704496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how many registers? < 1259704500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 general-purpose < 1259704505 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 caller-saved, 32 callee-saved < 1259704514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, many special-purpose ones < 1259704516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not more? < 1259704519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259704540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not? if memory is slow and registers less so you would want more no? < 1259704565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly to prevent register scheduling taking forever < 1259704587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? but what about current arches with lots of registers? < 1259704598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 is lots < 1259704600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and llvm internally uses 1024 virtual registers < 1259704606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could add more, I suppose < 1259704618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would have to check if it would help or not < 1259704635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what special purpose registers are there? < 1259704651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a nice list in bf-ld somewhere, let me find it < 1259704672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at argloc < 1259704698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm a lot of regexes? < 1259704703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regexpes* < 1259704705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1259704721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what are their functions? < 1259704746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a scratch register, two carry registers, two maintained at 0, three temp registers < 1259704746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also three pointers (mark, stack, frame) < 1259704746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two maintained at 0? < 1259704757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for leaving loops, etc < 1259704763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why two? < 1259704763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's two a specific distance apart < 1259704765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259704768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can become sure where the pointer is < 1259704773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you weren't sure where it was before < 1259704778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the easiest way to do conditionals < 1259704796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*four temp registers < 1259704810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you went for softfloat? < 1259704815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259704820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why? < 1259704821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why are you even asking that question? < 1259704837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if it is not utterly obvious why you'd use softfloat in a brainfuck-based simulated processor < 1259704841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is wrong with you < 1259704848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, softfloat would be even slower wouldn't it than one that is optimised bf one, right? < 1259704876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean, it would need to split across registers < 1259704883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what if they aren't next to each other? < 1259704890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they were, would it help much? < 1259704910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floating's going to be soft anyway < 1259704916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you do write a good hard float library for BF < 1259704917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1259704922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259704923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :publish it, it'd be useful even outside gcc-bf < 1259704943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does a bf library even make sense < 1259704943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :outside the context of gcc-bf < 1259704948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes? < 1259704952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1259704955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1259704960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use it #define-style < 1259704962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess as a set of functions listed on a page < 1259704970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly do cleverer things, depending on what you were doing < 1259704992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you consider compiling to pebble first? < 1259705013 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there wouldn't be much of a point < 1259705023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259705038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((test x$1 = xrc || test x$1 = xcr || test x$1 = xcru) && shift && tar czvf $* ) || (test x$1 = xx && shift && tar xzvf $* ) || (echo Usage: bf-ar cr archive.a file.o [file.o [...]]) < 1259705040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf-ar < 1259705041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is nice < 1259705044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what the hell? < 1259705060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void _exit (int rv) { (void) rv; goto *(void*)0; } < 1259705075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, uh < 1259705081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly my favourite C function I've ever written < 1259705088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1259705090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would go to start of program no? < 1259705094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in gcc-bf < 1259705097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which starts at origin 1 < 1259705098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in gcc-bf < 1259705100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh hah < 1259705126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly some other value, determined by the linker < 1259705126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so lowest page is mapped? < 1259705126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1259705126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"page" < 1259705126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does not make sense < 1259705142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function pointers are just tags in gcc-bf < 1259705147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't point to actual memory locations < 1259705153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just used to identify which function you mea < 1259705153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, same or separate code and data pointers? < 1259705154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mean < 1259705157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah separate < 1259705165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code and data pointers are in separate ranges of values < 1259705173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, code, stack, and heap are < 1259705176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, limits? < 1259705186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're distinguished by the first byte, which is 0x0, 0x1, or 0x2 < 1259705193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, top byte < 1259705197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shouldn't you provide a limits.h? < 1259705199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the less significant bytes are the value < 1259705204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, limits.h is in newlib, I think < 1259705227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it is target-specific < 1259705233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to some extent < 1259705247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf-old.c bf-old.h bf-old.md bf-protos.h bf.c bf.h bf.md notesfromesolang.txt t-bf < 1259705248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259705251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's those < 1259705261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, you don't want to know < 1259705269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, bf-old you can ignore < 1259705269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, they are in config-bf < 1259705272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's before I created the darcs repo < 1259705276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would *need* to know < 1259705279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t-bf is to do with the build system < 1259705287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is a timestamp file (no content but the modification time) < 1259705288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# Generate floating point emulation libraries. < 1259705289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in t-bf < 1259705291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259705300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1259705304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes < 1259705310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPBIT = fp-bit.c < 1259705310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DPBIT = dp-bit.c < 1259705311 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no it isn't < 1259705314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t-bf is a makefile fragment < 1259705320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gets dynamically injected into gcc's makefiles < 1259705322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one for every arch < 1259705325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where are those .c files < 1259705327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, I muddled it with something else) < 1259705332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somewhere in gcc < 1259705340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the standard single and double precision float emu libraries < 1259705387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you have any sort of todo list or roadmap or such? < 1259705400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look for unimplemented bits in bf-ld < 1259705403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259705409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gcc side is finished, barring bugfixes < 1259705418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bf-protos.h bf.c bf.h bf.md files? < 1259705421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway: bf.h is a header file that describes the application binary interface < 1259705425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf.c is code generation < 1259705436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bf.md is hard to describe in a single line < 1259705447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it's code in a gcc-specific DSL < 1259705457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which generates RTL, and compiles it to asm < 1259705466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the RTL is modified by other bits of gcc after it's been generated, though < 1259705478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf-protos.h I can't remember, I'd have to look at it < 1259705479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* TODO: hook TARGET_ADDRESS_COST to give the optmizer some clues about how < 1259705479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : expensive various operations are. Possibly TARGET_RTX_COSTS too. */ < 1259705481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afail < 1259705483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik* < 1259705489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on interpreter/compiler < 1259705491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for bf < 1259705495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's just function prototypes < 1259705506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which have to be in a separate file for a gcc-build-system-related reason I can't remembe < 1259705508 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*remember < 1259705528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, on the ABI compiler, yes < 1259705535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1259705539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it's telling it things like xor is slower than mov for setting things to 0 < 1259705544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it can't guess without being told < 1259705549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh right < 1259705558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is [-] "mov"? < 1259705572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259705577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mov.8 0 < 1259705588 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd have to say where it was, too < 1259705589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, one operand? < 1259705594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two operands < 1259705605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also what about mov reg->reg or mov mem->reg < 1259705606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1259705615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mov.8 $0, %r4" is the actual syntax < 1259705621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of mov immediate->* < 1259705638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't mov, as you can't do that in brainfuck < 1259705640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why the . thing < 1259705641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead, you'd use tadd < 1259705644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: bitwidths < 1259705657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unusual notation for it? < 1259705666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov.8 $0, %r4 < 1259705668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : tadd2.8 (%mark), %r4, %scratch < 1259705669 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : tadd.8 %scratch, (%mark) < 1259705675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't an unprecedented notation < 1259705677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't an unprecedented notation < 1259705687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need to repeat that < 1259705689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that above there is an addition from a register to memory < 1259705691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: typo < 1259705694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259705699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1259705711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a move from memory to register < 1259705714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above that in what file? < 1259705719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first step: set $r4 to 0 < 1259705724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, what I just pasted < 1259705727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above in the conversation < 1259705739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second step: add (%mark) to %r4 and %scratch < 1259705740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does llvm use a similar .x thingy? < 1259705755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :third step: add %scratch to (%mark) < 1259705760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know < 1259705770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there a bf.h outside config-bf? < 1259705771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but gcc's pretty flexible in asm notations, I imagine llvm is too < 1259705776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different one < 1259705778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's < 1259705780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for use by user programs < 1259705782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1259705804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, note those are transfer-additions < 1259705809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which set their first argument to 0 < 1259705832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that clear, transfer-add, transfer-add is the usual way to copy a value without destroying the original < 1259705862 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1259705865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(%mark) is special, btw < 1259705875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mark is a pointer, that marks a memory location on the heap or stack < 1259705883 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can use the place that pointer points to like a register < 1259705892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only way you can access memory in general < 1259705909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how much memory does bfrle try to allocate < 1259705923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by that? < 1259705933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :klee: Executor.cpp:566: void klee::Executor::initializeGlobals(klee::ExecutionState&): Assertion `mo && "out of memory"' failed. < 1259705938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I try to run it under klee < 1259705944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's klee? < 1259705946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which handles cfunge file after dropping mmap < 1259705959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, llvm tool that symbolically executes all possible paths in the program < 1259705959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and it allocates just enough to hold the program < 1259705960 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mikseri.net/artists/sortokausi.40541.php < 1259705962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really cool < 1259705962 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1259705963 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1259705968 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry :P < 1259705968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the BF tape < 1259705968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still rather buggy < 1259705984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is, it noticed that it was possible for it to allocate unlimited amounts of memory < 1259705988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which a BF interp can < 1259705991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not likely. < 1259705992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as a result, tried < 1259706020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as I didn't even mark any variable as symbolic yet < 1259706031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to tell it what variables/what input is symbolic < 1259706037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it tries that when finding bugs < 1259706056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like argc/argv usually < 1259706056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sometimes a specific variable directly in source < 1259706080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without that it would just say "generated one test case, on one path" < 1259706085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh: #define TAPELENGTH 100663378 < 1259706091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what's happening < 1259706102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set the length of the tape to the area of the tape that gcc-bf can use < 1259706106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that seems extremely long < 1259706112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many mb is it? < 1259706122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around 100 < 1259706127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259706150 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :96.000078201 MB, it seems < 1259706159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf can access 16 MB of tape and 16 MB of stack < 1259706166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right < 1259706171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16+16 < 96 < 1259706180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are four bytes of bookkeeping for every byte of heap/stack < 1259706186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant heap and stack < 1259706198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every six bytes contains one heap, one stack, four bookkeeping < 1259706199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's 128 MB then < 1259706209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 16*6 = 96MB < 1259706213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1259706214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the tiny extra amount is registers < 1259706222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(16+16)*4? < 1259706223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1259706228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259706239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, one byte of heap and stack need four bytes of bookkeeping between them < 1259706247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523,oh < 1259706252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have one dedicated byte of bookkeeping each, and two between them, to be precise < 1259706255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's an implementation detail < 1259706256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(16+16)*2 ? < 1259706273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16*6 < 1259706276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259706282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how comes some are shared? < 1259706329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I need to sleep < 1259706346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every six bytes contains: one unused value (to keep locations a multiple of 6), mark pointer for the stack, stack data, stack/heap pointer, mark pointer for the heap, heap data < 1259706359 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where pointers are set to 1 if the pointer doesn't point there, or 0 otherwise < 1259706371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stack/frame poitner < 1259706373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pointer < 1259706377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is the padding used by gcc-bf? none? < 1259706378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there can be multiple frame pointers < 1259706382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct, no padding < 1259706387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a waste of space < 1259706391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259706414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for bitfields up to a multiple of 8 bits, but you don't use those if you want the program to run at all efficiently < 1259706424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what are the sizes of char/short/int/long/long long/float/double/long double ? < 1259706446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in octets, 1/2/4/4/8/4/8/8 < 1259706460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259706469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1259706469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double and long double are the same, as are int and long < 1259706483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because everyone seems to assume 32-bit int nowadays < 1259706496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wouldn't bitfields be just turned into bitwise and/or? < 1259706497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I want as many existing programs as possible to compile unmodified < 1259706499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1259706501 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shifts < 1259706502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, those are slow < 1259706512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rather like my implementation of bitwise and and or < 1259706522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it involves repeated multiplication by 128, IIRC < 1259706569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, idea for next project: gcc-intercal < 1259706581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for compiling C to C-INTERCAL < 1259706587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm likely to continue working on gcc-bf until at least such time as it can port C-INTERCAL to BF < 1259706610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I doubt c-intercal will fit < 1259706616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the memory < 1259706618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 96MB? < 1259706619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite a lot < 1259706628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bear in mind that I grew up with floppy disk < 1259706630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*disks < 1259706632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in 96 *inefficiently used* MB < 1259706644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 16 MB stack, 16 MB heap, from the C program's point of view < 1259706651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1259706652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*16 MiB < 1259706663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and cfunge would burst that for heap at least < 1259706666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for stac < 1259706669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack* < 1259706678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt if cfunge ever uses more than 1 MB stack < 1259706681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's trying to store a giant hash table < 1259706690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, giant static array too < 1259706693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259706700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you got rid of the static array, or made it relatively small < 1259706704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but what sort of program uses 16MB *stack*? < 1259706712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything that recurses a lot < 1259706717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that declares large arrays on the stack < 1259706719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"meh" < 1259706727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or especially, botbh < 1259706729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*both < 1259706750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, will check cfunge stack and heap usage with massif tomorrow < 1259706773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going to all this trouble just to port cfunge to brainfuck? < 1259706777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way < 1259706784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1259706788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you'd gone mad for a moment < 1259706791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, madder than normal < 1259706799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is no way I will try to port cfunge to anything non-POSIX. < 1259706808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just way way too much work < 1259706810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf is meant to be POSIX, eventually < 1259706819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has quite a bit of POSIX already, via newlib < 1259706822 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. signals < 1259706823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that day it might run cfunge *shrug* < 1259706833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's single-process, though < 1259706837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you call fork, you get EAGAIN < 1259706849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and what about mmap()? < 1259706859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would actually be surprisingly easy < 1259706862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the files are in memory anyway < 1259706876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would just be a wrapper around realloc < 1259706882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, uh what < 1259706893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would a read only mmap be a wrapper around realloc? < 1259706907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read only means undefined behaviour if you try to write, doesn't it? < 1259706911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about aio? I considered adding that to cfunge, just for the hell of it < 1259706915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes. < 1259706919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1259706927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aio wouldn't work, for the same reason forking doesn't work < 1259706928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PROT_READ Pages may be read. < 1259706943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, poll()? < 1259706946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think anything explicitly bans allowing people to write if they just requested read access < 1259706953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can't remember what that one does < 1259706961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about PROT_NONE? < 1259706973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway you need to have a page size for mmap < 1259706975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, poll would be rather degenerate < 1259706977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your page size? < 1259706981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1, probably < 1259706986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1259706988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason to make it anything else < 1259707003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm sure that will break something < 1259707007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that you can map to more than one page, IIRC < 1259707022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :page break has to be 1, I think < 1259707030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that sbrk works on 1-byte granularity < 1259707033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259707047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the implementation of sbrk is also rather fun, but nowhere near as fun as that of exit) < 1259707050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two constants _SC_PAGESIZE and _SC_PAGE_SIZE may be defined to have the same value. < 1259707051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1259707057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go team POSIX < 1259707060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all I can say < 1259707080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the "may be" < 1259707094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah exactly the bit I referred to < 1259707104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, here's probably the confusingest bit from the implementation to sbrk: static void* brk = &__brkpos; < 1259707111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that only works with gcc < 1259707113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually make that "go austin group" < 1259707114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1259707117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is "team posix" < 1259707123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that brkpos is defined as extern void __brkpos; < 1259707128 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, it only needs to work with gcc < 1259707174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259707183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about boehm-gc < 1259707186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to be ported < 1259707216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if nothing else to allow gcc bootstrap < 1259707217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259707266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its entire method of operation wouldn't work < 1259707276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that pointers and ordinary integers look very similar in gcc-bf < 1259707290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, actually < 1259707301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that stack and heap memory always starts 0x01 or 0x02 < 1259707307 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259707321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chance that an integer and a pointer clashed would be low enough that it probably would manage to actually collect something < 1259707353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, libgcc < 1259707357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you handle that < 1259707361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it partly asm? < 1259707364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259707367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1259707367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written entirely in C < 1259707374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for all arches? < 1259707385 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, except you can write bits of asm and they take precedence over it < 1259707390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259707402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not all arches has everything? < 1259707406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1259707416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't need 64-bit division stuff there on x86-64 < 1259707429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1259707435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why its makefile is generated by script, I think < 1259707439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore has to be patched by script < 1259707460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one amusing fact: if you don't implement enough primitives to be able to implement all operations < 1259707464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. no multiplication at all < 1259707473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then libgcc goes into an infinite recursive loop < 1259707477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's compiled into calls to itself < 1259707506 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1259707533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : colordiff -Naur <(nm -D /lib32/libgcc_s.so.1 | grep ' T ' | cut -d' ' -f3- | sort -n) <(nm -D /lib64/libgcc_s.so.1 | grep ' T ' | cut -d' ' -f3- | sort -n) < 1259707535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1259707567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hah < 1259707589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shouldn't it do multiplication by addition? < 1259707601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 8-bit, yes < 1259707608 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond 8-bit, that's hilariously inefficient < 1259707621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so it could do it in terms of the 8-bit < 1259707624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in theory < 1259707626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259707631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, it seems to screw up < 1259707644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, " beyond 8-bit, that's hilariously inefficient" <-- hah isn't that what gcc-bf does? < 1259707648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1259707648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, gcc's incapable of comprehending that a system's only multiplier can only handle 8-bit numbers < 1259707653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1259707655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no < 1259707655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: gcc-bf is surprisingly efficient, on an RLE system < 1259707657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's meant to be < 1259707728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about division < 1259707739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of CPUs lacking integer division < 1259707747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIC12F* for example < 1259707747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they may well be special-cased < 1259707759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt you would use C for it < 1259707762 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably not lacking a bit shift tho, right? < 1259707765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any CPUs that /gcc targets/ that lack integer division? < 1259707765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with the limited memory < 1259707771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, I forgot. it was years ago < 1259707774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I coded for it < 1259707790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is an "embedded microcontroller" kind of thing < 1259707794 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can use that shift to do division.. < 1259707799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, well yes < 1259707817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, think it had 12 bit address space or something < 1259707858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41190E.pdf < 1259707860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :datasheet < 1259707891 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finally started work on the bf interp for my wristwatch < 1259707900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari_, XD < 1259707908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joking right? < 1259707913 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259707916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT? < 1259707938 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Timex Datalink USB < 1259707939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh? < 1259707985 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timex_Datalink#Timex_Datalink_USB < 1259708066 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be able to fit about 200 bf instructions in ram < 1259708078 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using a simple 4 bit encoding) < 1259708112 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I considered 3 bit, but the overhead isn't worth it < 1259708136 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it only buys like 20 more instructions < 1259708298 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fun toy.. I once destabilized my watch running a program in my debugging app, and it took about 30 minutes before it finally reset, fortunately it did not beep < 1259708332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long would the tape be? < 1259708365 0 :FireFly|xchat!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259708383 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whatever is left from the program memory plus 24 bytes < 1259708407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not going to be able to run very big BF programs, then < 1259708432 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but that's okay because I'm not going to want to enter big programs using the crown of a wristwatch < 1259708452 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259708455 0 :FireFly|xchat!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1259708480 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since it doesn't use ascii, programs would have to custom written for the watch < 1259708528 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that and only being able to display 14 characters on one screen < 1259708563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259708602 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :calamari < 1259708770 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259710410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259712496 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259712783 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1259713977 0 :Halph!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259714140 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1259714271 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1259714435 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259717603 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259722566 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259722582 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, how is Square not the most completely idiotic thing ever conceived, exactly? < 1259722644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1259722660 0 :augur!n=augur@68.33.240.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259722671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://squareup.com/ < 1259722679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess the receipts thing.. < 1259722731 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's brilliant. It's the smallest device I've ever seen that a criminal could use to steal card numbers < 1259723240 0 :augur_!n=augur@68.33.240.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259723558 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259725271 0 :augur!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259725978 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259726068 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259726292 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259726301 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259727961 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1259727961 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259728306 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1259729528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259731302 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259733235 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259735297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, that little square might emit encrypted data only decryptable by trusted software. It's not absolute security, of course. < 1259735307 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-106-64.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259735346 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it's not *that bad* if your credit card information is leaked to a bad guy. < 1259735363 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, let's see how common it ends up being, in practice, for people to steal information this way. < 1259735920 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259736036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that uorygl is apparently not rot-anything < 1259736810 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259736930 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259736965 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259737786 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259737878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259739206 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259740157 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259740619 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259740799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1259740800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259742291 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-11-29.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259742828 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259747263 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259747276 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259748654 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259748738 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259759058 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your favorite number (modulo 7)? < 1259759156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 < 1259759179 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :niiice < 1259759189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your favourite colour (modulo three)? < 1259759205 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a very weird question, fizzie. < 1259759223 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had trouble deciding between "modulo three" and "modulo green" there. < 1259759236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I take it as an RGBA quadruple and interpret it as a single 32-bit number modulo three, I get black < 1259759279 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'd say black is my favorite color anyway, anything else needs the right hue to look nice < 1259759320 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait don't you also get invisible black? < 1259759327 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or which is transparent < 1259759416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invisible colours are my favourite kind of colours. < 1259759446 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you like letting other's choose < 1259759449 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :others < 1259759452 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If modulo green is modulo 0x00ff00ff, I get 0x004b384a which is some kind of semitransparent turquoise < 1259759631 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the original < 1259759673 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo white < 1259759686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#4b0082? That would give a non-transparent color. < 1259759694 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it looks a bit Deewianty maybe. < 1259759717 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm pretty sure Deewiant would want some red in there < 1259759731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That has 0x4b blobs of red. < 1259759742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By #4b0082 I mean 0x4b0082ff, of course. < 1259759744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blobs? < 1259759750 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right lol < 1259759760 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that sounds Deewianty < 1259759771 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you measure them as blobs. #ffffff has 768 blobs; that's all you can fit in one pixel. < 1259759791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay; that's good to know < 1259759828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION believes < 1259759856 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.answers.com/topic/blob-visual-system < 1259759891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interblobs tell the difference between #ffffff and #ɟɟɟɟɟɟ < 1259759934 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those f's turned upside down or somethign? < 1259759936 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*something < 1259759976 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean they are sensitive to orientation < 1259760001 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like only light from a certain angle hits them < 1259760508 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems unlikely, since they're in the visual cortex < 1259760508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol i just read the relevant sentence :P < 1259760508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that long < 1259762616 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259762684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259766644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If I take it as an RGBA quadruple and interpret it as a single 32-bit number modulo three, I get black <-- only 8 bits per channel? :( < 1259766666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and you didn't specify the gamut < 1259766670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SRGB? < 1259766771 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259766775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1259766791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats AnMaster -----### < 1259766801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why? < 1259766818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry you went so fast i thought you were a fly < 1259766844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I liked the annotation this time < 1259767187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1259769154 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259769180 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259769489 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259769491 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuuuurgh < 1259769496 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened to ehird < 1259769728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a tragic accident involving cheddar, a moose and five ancient OSes < 1259769750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while ehird survived (barely), the cheddar did not. < 1259770460 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259771075 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259771238 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-14.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259771577 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259771590 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259772443 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259772464 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259772532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, what?! < 1259772555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu developer's theory: the reason that my fscks keep getting stuck at 90% is that fsck isn't installed < 1259772844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259772853 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259772941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mountall/+bug/487744 (the person who said fsck wasn't installed reassigned the bug to mountall for some reason) < 1259773849 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Pong timeout: 180 seconds" < 1259777447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fsck not installed < 1259777448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1259777456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, it is < 1259777463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, since when does ubuntu use first tire support staff < 1259777463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259777464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell, that's a completely bogus comment from the developer < 1259777496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you try a different fsck version from a livecd? < 1259777502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259777507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too busy with other things < 1259777507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1259777511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259777554 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "first tire" typo immediately made me think of a Ubuntu supportperson balancing on a unicycle. < 1259777570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unibuntu < 1259777591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, eh, tier* < 1259777793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unibuntu -- it's only got one wheel group member." That's the motto. < 1259777838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, only root then? < 1259777874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh there is no wheel in /etc/groups on januty? < 1259777883 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259777886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an "admin" group < 1259777892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the group of people allowed to sudo, which comes to much the same thing < 1259777903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as root doesn't actually have a password, a wheel group would be kind-of pointless < 1259777903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "wheel" is *traditional* < 1259777908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea why, but it is < 1259777927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: GNU su doesn't support wheel, because Stallman thought it was unfair for people to be unable to get root if they guessed the root password < 1259777938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259778049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also just do: chown root:wheel /bin/su && chmod 4710 /bin/su < 1259778059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless I misremember mode needed for suid) < 1259778077 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chmod u+t,g+x,o-x < 1259778093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that assumes the write/read perm is sane before < 1259778101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why allow other people to read it? < 1259778114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't actually need +r for group/others for suid binaries < 1259778115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1259778137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: agreed < 1259778145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand < 1259778146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# ls -l /usr/bin/sudo < 1259778146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :---s--x--x 2 root root 143400 Jun 17 17:52 /usr/bin/sudo < 1259778149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why not allow people to read it, given that GNU su binaries are easy enough to come by < 1259778149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is rather unusual < 1259778166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, those perms look fine to me < 1259778170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah they are < 1259778177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, that means owner can't read it? < 1259778215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root can read anything < 1259778235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welll yes < 1259778253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw for fsck, did you try running it manually at all? < 1259778269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259778271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, from init=/bin/busybox style of thing < 1259778278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, might be worth a try < 1259778287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :livecd is best of course < 1259778516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think the person in question did not read the bug properly < 1259778518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1259778530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully someone else will bounce it back to the right thing < 1259778532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only real explanation < 1259778572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, otherwise you can try to change distro of course. This sort of thing generally doesn't happen with gentoo for example < 1259778583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, bug reports tends to be responded to quickly with gentoo < 1259778592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not *fixed* quickly always of course < 1259778597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but response is fast < 1259779012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what bug reporting tool btw? < 1259779020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wasn't aware such a thing existed < 1259779072 0 :oklokok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259779839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yawn* < 1259780134 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259780433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259780722 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ubuntu-bug < 1259780729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you give it a pid or the name of a package < 1259780734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it goes and attaches info to your bug report < 1259781057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1259781072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, pid of a program no longer running? < 1259781079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case of a segfault) < 1259781081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, of one that's currently running < 1259781086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get a segfault, you give the package name instead < 1259781093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently running's for more minor bugs < 1259782487 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259782794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1259782862 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259783118 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259783413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok! :o < 1259783744 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259784033 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259784149 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259784236 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1259784271 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259785643 0 :Fredrik1994!n=FIQ@213-67-76-113-no52.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259785919 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259786550 0 :FIQ!n=FIQ@213-67-76-113-no52.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259786573 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ismarriagelegalintexas.com/ < 1259786915 0 :jpc!n=jw@76.23.28.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259786966 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259787525 0 :Fredrik1994!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259787687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, finally got this FPGA evaluation board working < 1259787687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's running a simple Verilog program that counts up to 2^32 repeatedly < 1259787691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :showing the top four bits on LEDs < 1259788269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how long does it take to count to 2^32? < 1259788287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seconds? minutes? < 1259788299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a few seconds to count to 2^28 < 1259788306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was running it from a relatively slow clock < 1259788313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259788322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 2^32 is quite a bit bigger than 2^28 however < 1259788329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just 16 times bigger < 1259788340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I think that is quite a bit < 1259788355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned 2^28 as it was the lowest observable number < 1259788362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm? < 1259788365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's more than a bit; something like four bits. < 1259788375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, augh < 1259788433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shouldn't a hello world be more.... traditional? < 1259788435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four bits, and I had them all connected to LEDs < 1259788436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a LCD maybe < 1259788448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: traditional hello-world equivalent in embedded systems is flashing one LED < 1259788451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was flashing four of them < 1259788455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259788499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about using 7-(or more)-segment displays? < 1259788514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TI DSP devboard had four leds too; we had those flashing in a KITT-from-Knight-Rider-y sort of pattern, with the sweep speed controllable with one of the four sliders we had in the "remote control" UI for the project. < 1259788520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an LCD on the board, but not seven-segment-displays < 1259788529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's about 12 LEDs on the board, but I only connected four of them < 1259788542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, an LCD would work < 1259788546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better maybe < 1259788555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, if the docs said which pins on the board it was connected to < 1259788557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they don't < 1259788565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's... weird? < 1259788576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bad docs? < 1259788593 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suspiciously bad; in fact, I'd say deliberately bad < 1259788600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1259788601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they want you to buy a complicated configuration program < 1259788611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does all the connection for you so you don't have to look at pinouts < 1259788626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh I see. Why not call them and ask for pinout instead and see what they say? < 1259788638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they don't accept queries from students < 1259788639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and... how hard would it be to reverse engineer it? < 1259788642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :II think we might've had some sort of "flicker the leds when it gets a parameter update from the remote control" feature, so in that sense the leds weren't completely useless. < 1259788647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually thought of reverse-engineering < 1259788660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, talk to a non-student about this? teacher or whatever < 1259788664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be kind-of hard < 1259788692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my professor's trying to find out the pinout at the moment, apparently < 1259788692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259788716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why would it be hard? could something break? < 1259788731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly because there are thousands of pins, connected to all sorts of thigns < 1259788737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259788738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you send output to an input pin, bad things happen < 1259788748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh right < 1259788754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the leds were documented? < 1259788771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259788774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259788790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is another reason I'm suspicious, btw < 1259788900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardware's like that; stick to software, and you'll never have to... uh, worry about... bad documentation... wait, I don't think that's actually true. < 1259788951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least with software usually you can have a backup if you make smoke come out of it when experimenting. < 1259788969 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1259788997 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259790225 0 :oklokok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259790283 0 :FIQ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259790410 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259790410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259790410 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259790411 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259790411 0 :fizzie`!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259790421 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@83.168.206.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259790579 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259790606 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259790657 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259790664 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259790857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie`, yeah true < 1259790898 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1259790918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would reading on an output pin do bad stuff? < 1259790947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly, you just get garbage < 1259790953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could try all inputs and see what ones are inputs (that you can trigger at least) < 1259790967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess two way communication channels wouldn't be found that way) < 1259790979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming the chip needs to trigger *first*) < 1259790993 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259791251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1259791253 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1259791290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not use some other product instead? < 1259791302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're considering that < 1259791323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any luck for the prof in finding the pinout? < 1259791323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one was donated to us free (suspicious in of itself), so we have it to hand < 1259791323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't heard anything < 1259791325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259791366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how is donations to universities suspicious? < 1259791377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it's clearly an advertising ploy < 1259791388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get us using their products when we leave, rather than a competitor's < 1259791392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we're more used to them < 1259791400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1259791409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we can't get the peripherals working, though, it's possible that ploy will backfire :) < 1259791419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1259791595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm I guess MSDNAA is the same basic idea? < 1259791600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259791690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, IMO MSDNAA backfires *badly* < 1259791706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what way? I have an MSDNAA subscription in theory but I've never used it < 1259791712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even asked for a password for it < 1259791734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because I learnt that Windows 7 need like 7 GB hd space for a minimal clean install < 1259791740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, really? < 1259791746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it was x64 < 1259791753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess 32-bit is a bit less < 1259791755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much < 1259791778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 64-bit ubuntu install fits in much less and comes with way more useful programs < 1259791788 0 :oklokok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259791813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, office suite, compiler, vector graphics editor, "better than paint" bitmap editor (gimp) < 1259791815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1259791832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently they're planning to remove GIMP from a default install (making it an installable package like most other programs) < 1259791839 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the basis that it's rather more powerful than most people need < 1259791841 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259791843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1259791857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, xp x64 needs around 2.5 GB iirc < 1259791860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way more reasonable < 1259791860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have Kolourpaint installed as a better-than-paint image editor < 1259791869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, krita is good I heard < 1259791879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's KDE, and I'm not sure if there's a similarly-featured Gnome program < 1259791882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolourpaint is useless to me < 1259791890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kolourpaint is just paint with more features < 1259791894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not many more < 1259791915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about krita. It supports non-RGB, which gimp still doesn't < 1259791929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however it lacks many of the useful photo editing features of gimp < 1259791942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems more intended for artists that draw stuff < 1259791959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep imagining someone using a wacom pad or such with it < 1259792177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and the downloader app sucks < 1259792178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for MSDNAA < 1259792192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it run under Linux? < 1259792198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses CRC at the end it says, yet usually results in bad downloads < 1259792199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no < 1259792227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wine said something about missing MSIE activex embedding galore thingy < 1259792234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259792249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I don't think the word "galore" was there < 1259792275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259792317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, the number 9 in minesweeper < 1259792320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't work out < 1259792336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects foul play or possibly a bug < 1259792364 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1259792533 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259792673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, night. I have an early day tomorrow < 1259792705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh that was probably a Swedishism too) < 1259792715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, same idiom's used in English < 1259792720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, almost < 1259792727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1259792729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something you've said there is subtly different from what we say here, but I'm not entirely sure what < 1259792747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think it may be "early morning" in Swedish < 1259792752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1259792758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tidig morgon" rather < 1259792758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye anyway < 1259792762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1259792763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1259793025 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259793207 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259793394 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259794705 0 :Oranjer!i=62470061@gateway/web/freenode/x-ahvvcbzkwmqsyira JOIN :#esoteric < 1259794738 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1259795062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the :O? < 1259795147 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1259795153 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::Oranjer < 1259795175 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hola < 1259795372 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259795404 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259795446 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1259795457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259795462 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O is just my greeting here, as I am almost always confused < 1259795973 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259796050 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259796941 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck has 20x more users than D < 1259796946 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.spoj.pl/ranks/languages/ < 1259797847 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259800181 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259801125 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: Good :P < 1259801159 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'SUP DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE UPGRADES SO WE PUT AN UPGRADE IN YOUR X SO NOW YOU HAVE TO REBOOT BECAUSE THE PROTOCOL CHANGED BACKWARD-INCOMPATIBLY. < 1259801167 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( a few weeks back) < 1259801193 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my boss made a reference to Brainfuck a few days back < 1259801208 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is kinda a techy type so it's not that ridiculous < 1259801224 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so he wasn't talking about the sex act < 1259801342 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hasn't heard of that one being done. < 1259801526 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's very common < 1259801530 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skullfuck is the more popular term < 1259801647 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, being done, rather than being talked about < 1259801664 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine it's difficult to find a willing partner < 1259801694 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz < 1259803056 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: who said they had to be willing? < 1259803075 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that the concept pretty much precludes willingness. < 1259803113 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the people who let themselves be eaten would allow it < 1259806311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259808616 0 :madbrain!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1259808671 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read about the halting problem... the proof of impossibility is so nasty :D < 1259809098 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-34-16-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259809262 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nasty ? < 1259809265 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1259809323 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, basically they proved you can't solve the halting problem by writing a program that generates a paradox if you try to do that < 1259809339 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically something like: < 1259809383 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can solve the halting problem, then you have a function solve_halting_problem(program) < 1259809400 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you can write a program like this: < 1259809480 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program p = { if solve_halting_program(p) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop} < 1259809532 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in other words it uses the potential solution on itself, determines if it's halting, if it's halting then don't halt, if it's not halting then halt < 1259809604 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but than that means your solve_halting_program() function cannot return either true or false for that particular program because then the program uses the solution to prove it false < 1259809869 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1259809924 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program := if halts(program) then loop else return < 1259809983 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259809985 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have < 1259809993 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program(p) := if halts(p) then loop else return < 1259809998 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you ask if halts(program(program)) < 1259810079 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm not sure I beleive this < 1259810190 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my language was just if/then/else, return, CAR, CDR, etc.. then every program terminates -- now if you add the loop keyword, you can define 'program' but you should be able to define halts quite easily too < 1259810227 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(suppose the language only allowed well founded recursion) < 1259810313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: ... "Well-founded recursion"? < 1259810329 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are allowed to loop on smaller inputs than what you were given only < 1259810349 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that every function (that's execution doesn't reach any "loop") terminates < 1259810368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how do you intend to enforce such a restriction? < 1259810398 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter really, you could do it syntactially or give the programmer the benefit of the doubt < 1259810435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And for that matter, what does "smaller inputs" mean? < 1259810460 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the inpute was the program "if halts(program) then loop else return" then "loop" is smaller (because it is a subterm) < 1259810498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I'm more confused than I was previously. < 1259810598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I also wonder what about that restricts the following: S(x,y,z) := z(y,z(y)); K(x,y) := x < 1259810733 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean S(x,y,z) := x(z)(y(z)) < 1259810753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Yes, yes I do. < 1259810827 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that program passes the recursion scheme (since it doesn't use recursion) but it is an error because it's not well typed < 1259810885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why isn't it well-typed? < 1259810916 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the point is that you're basically imposing limitations that make the resulting language not turing complete < 1259810939 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is not turing complete because of (1) the types (2) the allowed recursion scheme < 1259810993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: What sort of ridiculous restriction on the type system *could you do* to make that not well-typed? < 1259811010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain: My point is that that's bloody hard without making something that's completely and utterly useless. < 1259811020 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true! < 1259811023 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you are one of these pragmatists < 1259811056 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing up my idea now to see if I am right < 1259811094 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best languages are the ones that are turing complete with the least number of instructions/operators/etc... :D < 1259811094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: By "useful", I mean "capable of non-trivial calculation". < 1259811113 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of non trivial calculuation? < 1259811129 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'll try and work it in if possible) < 1259811158 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emulate brainfuck? :D < 1259811177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, functions that do more than mere arithmetic? < 1259811179 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it can't be turing complete :P < 1259811201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps... Hmm. Matrix multiplication? < 1259811213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, that's even a bit trivial. < 1259812015 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1259812482 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really hard to make this language ...ars < 1259812492 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259814488 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-144-54.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259815075 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259815829 0 :augur_!n=augur@c-68-34-16-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259815862 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1259816304 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259816947 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1259817159 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-34-16-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259817375 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259819070 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1259819588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259821676 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259822192 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259823376 0 :lifthrasiir!i=pxdwlfdb@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259823410 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259823445 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, < 1259823447 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : program p = { if solve_halting_program(p) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop} < 1259823451 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should be: < 1259823459 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : program p = { if solve_halting_program(p(p)) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop} < 1259823461 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1259823660 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I figured out a language (that has nontermination) which has solve_halting_program as a built in, but I couldn't find a language which it's possible to implement solve_halting_program in (yet?) < 1259823697 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about non-trivial ones, so we can't have solve_halting_program(_) = true < 1259823940 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1259823964 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUNNO ??? < 1259823983 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know what to think or say < 1259824007 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1259824512 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain, I have been thinking about this a lot < 1259824527 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make sense of wha tyou said < 1259824581 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I just looked up a website about the halting problem proof and went "that is neat" < 1259824589 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's it < 1259824680 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1259824697 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't really want to think about it beyond that I guess < 1259824802 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1259825662 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1259825735 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259825757 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1259825786 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucked :/ < 1259826635 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-189-194.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259826705 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi bsmntbombdood < 1259826711 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1259826851 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The halting problem describes why computers can't easily avoid crashing, or rather, why they can't predict when they are about to crash and ..." BULLSHIT! < 1259826897 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1259826924 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbrain was talking about halting problem and got me interested but he's to busy/smart/clever to talk to me about it < 1259827199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1259827200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259827604 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood I got snow crash < 1259827684 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w93Z1M2r7SA < 1259827711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: BTW, the halting problem is actually solvable for commonly available computers. (theoretically, not practically) < 1259827715 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have loved to see sabbath back then < 1259827745 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because commonly available computers have finite memory, etc < 1259827747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hooray, not actually having Turing machines) < 1259827874 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes something like 2**n memory though on a von neumann with n bits of ram < 1259827891 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even more time < 1259827940 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get simply typed lambda calculus and add booleans (and if) and omega (some diverging term), you can also add a halts function (but not implement it in this language, it has to be implemented in the interpreter) < 1259827972 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iommi's a fucking beast < 1259828171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Sounds about right. < 1259828189 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought about adding (typed) codes for terms of the language and recursion operators for them, but there's bubbles that don't go away so it doesn't seem to work. maybe something first order would work (yuo can only have base types on the left of an arrow) < 1259828237 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to end up with a language that can express its own halting predicate but not the liar program < 1259828267 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing about the liar program afaict that actually has anything to do with turing completenss < 1259828969 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I right ? wrong ? just totally trivial observation ?? < 1259830319 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259835335 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259836636 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259837605 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259838553 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840542 0 :fizzie`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840542 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840543 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840543 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840543 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840544 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840545 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840545 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840546 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840547 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840547 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840547 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840547 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840547 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840548 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840548 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840549 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840549 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840549 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840550 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840550 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840551 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840551 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840551 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840551 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840552 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840552 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840640 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840640 0 :sunrider!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840641 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840641 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259840654 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-189-194.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :lifthrasiir!i=pxdwlfdb@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-144-54.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@83.168.206.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :fizzie`!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-42-206.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840654 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840679 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840697 0 :mycrofti1!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840702 0 :MizardX-!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840749 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1259840760 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1259840805 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259840930 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259840947 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259841126 0 :sunrider!n=kosmic@unaffiliated/spice JOIN :#esoteric < 1259841567 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-qbvdfjifjkeimpjl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259842751 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-4-250.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259843502 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1259843628 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259844349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought for the day: Oh, definitely. C++ may not be the worst programming language ever created, but without a doubt it's the worst ever to be taken seriously. < 1259844699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1259846337 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-40-239.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259847015 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259848407 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259850892 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259851317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1259851827 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1259852733 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259853069 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259853269 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1259853371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259853876 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259854011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it takes something like 2**n memory though on a von neumann with n bits of ram < 1259854046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you only need a slight amount of extra memory. what you need is 2**n _time_ however < 1259854142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(double memory or so to do a step count, i think) < 1259854164 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259854338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1259854403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is this operation that takes 2**n timer? < 1259854406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time* < 1259854422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :halting check for a finite machine < 1259854443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by some other machine) < 1259854474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259854494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2**n is the maximum amount of steps before it starts repeating itself < 1259854582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to get field width correct for printf() when using utf-8. Basically stuff like %10s checks bytes < 1259854587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259854588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actual chars < 1259854758 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1259855157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: %10R in Plan 9 C, "give up" otherwise. < 1259855180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wprintf() and setlocale(LC_CTYPE, "") < 1259855181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that worked < 1259855187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1259855188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course now I have to deal with wchar_t instead < 1259855193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is no fun < 1259855224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, issue: this code is supposed to be portable C89 though < 1259855235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly even work on windows (ugh) < 1259855260 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259855339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Give up. < 1259855366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1259855374 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only C99 possesses functioning UTF-8 support. < 1259855385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, maybe a C89/C99 polygot? < 1259855388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with preprocessor < 1259855394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and Plan 9 C. < 1259855398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still it breaks char constants < 1259855400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, then, they invented UTF-8. < 1259855403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like L"åäö" < 1259855411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is L for wchar_t < 1259855418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods' < 1259855439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way I can use the preprocessor to add/get rid of it I think < 1259855446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I can't think of one at least < 1259855484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible with the C preprocessor. < 1259855533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1259855543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a macro maybe? to do L/non-L < 1259855548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wouldn't work < 1259855556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a string is no identifier < 1259855566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ## is out of question < 1259856127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: D&D expanded strip >_< < 1259856231 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259856241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1259857181 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259857557 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259857807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is unable to get wide char ncurses working < 1259857835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just outputs *nothing*. It blanks the screen to put it in that cursor addressing mode (as expected) but then nothing else works (not expected) < 1259859683 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@174-137-229-165.ip.tor.radiant.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259860580 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.105.159.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259860970 0 :mycrofti1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mycroftiv < 1259861785 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, hows everyone doing? < 1259861864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same thing we do every day poiuy_qwert < 1259861882 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tring to take over the world? < 1259861889 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying* < 1259861899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can neither confirm nor deny that < 1259861956 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259862889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259864175 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, it must be a bit annoying to write your nick every time you login somewhere? < 1259864197 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, very easy < 1259864236 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I see the pattern of course, but I've never liked writing qwerty on qwerty, I think it's easier to write a word where the keys are evenly distributed between the hands and so on < 1259864303 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just slide my finger along the buttons, so its almost like only pressing 3 keys, p... _ q... < 1259864321 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could use a 10 finger approach < 1259864324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries that and it just feels _wrong_ < 1259864330 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259864407 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lrcgfZåäöpy < 1259864418 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, I forgot I'm not using Qwerty < 1259864431 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have the physical keys setup like that < 1259864436 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forgets < 1259864649 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259866203 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh i see < 1259866211 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't need to check for repeating states at all < 1259866257 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259866297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not directly, no < 1259867282 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259870175 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259870849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259871511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well i just slide my finger along the buttons, so its almost like only pressing 3 keys, p... _ q... <-- you have a laptop or possibly a flat desktop keyboard I presume? < 1259871533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way sliding works well on anything like a classical PC keyboard < 1259871578 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a MacBook pro, which is one of the less easy keyboards to slide along, but i've only seen like 1 keyboard in person that couldn't do it effectively < 1259871599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, I was thinking along the lines of "model m" < 1259871623 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is, gotta google it :P < 1259871629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, svorak? < 1259871653 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes those ones. who has those anymore? ;P < 1259871655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, think "clicky keyboard" < 1259871672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, well I have something similar but not clicky. Membrane sadly < 1259871687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still it is impossible to slide on it < 1259871716 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see, well i still dont even find it bad to type my name, but thats probably because i'm more of a two finger typer < 1259871722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not that type of membrane < 1259871729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rubber caps I meant < 1259871735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :below the real keys < 1259871756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, "dome switch" is the real name < 1259871770 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, correct < 1259871780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to mix them up < 1259871781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1259871792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, two fingers? eww < 1259871809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION use four on each hand usually. Sometimes all < 1259871836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, next I guess you are going to say you aren't touch typing! < 1259871836 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Four on each hand, thumbs for space < 1259871847 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thumbs for other stuff is impossible :P < 1259871852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, well yes I included "thumb for space" with those four < 1259871857 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1259871858 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its not really two fingers, i just use my index fingers A LOT < 1259871875 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've started to touch type since I switched over to Svorak < 1259871876 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch typing> < 1259871889 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forced myself to learning it at the same time, when I was anyway relearning it from scratch < 1259871905 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poiuy_qwert, wikipedia it, it's some "rules" for which fingers to use for which buttons < 1259871932 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, thats lame ;P < 1259871943 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually just columns.. the index fingers are for six letter keys each, the rest are for three each < 1259871957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, no it isn't < 1259871961 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1259871964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well those are a part of it < 1259871980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I meant it in the sense of not having to look at the keyboard to type < 1259871987 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1259871988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the other part of it < 1259871995 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've done that a long time anyway < 1259871996 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it the one where they tell you to start with your fingers all position on a,s,d,f,space space,j,k,l,;? < 1259872009 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's the home row < 1259872013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you do that anyway? < 1259872021 0 :|MigoMipo|!i=kvirc@95.209.56.159.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259872021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not really, not when using emacs < 1259872027 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i do it somewhat, but i find it easier to just go with the flow < 1259872031 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing <-- that image there tells most of it (about the layout related stuff, that is) < 1259872059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, they should stop using slanted rows IMO < 1259872062 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually stay with my fingers at aoeu htns (the dvorak home row), much more than I did when I used Qwerty < 1259872069 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeholdMyGlory agrees with you, AnMaster < 1259872078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, oh? < 1259872099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also s/rows/columns/ < 1259872100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1259872112 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slanted rows would be really, really strange < 1259872125 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1259872132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, s/strange/so ergonomic you can charge the double price/ < 1259872156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously I think a split keyboard would be really nice < 1259872160 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You mean something like http://www.ergoff.se/produkter/ez_reach ? < 1259872170 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the columns that is. < 1259872190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe. I think that key placement looks strange < 1259872221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeholdMyGlory, I was considering qwerty or dvorak style but not slanted columns. < 1259872232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if slanted, slanted symetrically < 1259872242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around the middle < 1259872454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants an model m terminal keyboard < 1259872460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? Just because it looks so impressive < 1259872498 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259872512 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright im gone, later! < 1259872515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1259872521 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259873151 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259874163 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1259874170 0 :jpc!n=jw@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259874642 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-97.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259874675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1259875109 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259875119 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259875152 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1259875372 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: chebyshev's inequality is actually one of my this week's homework problems :D < 1259875377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you read logs < 1259875394 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually even if you don't < 1259875420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1259875513 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259875516 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :garliccccccccccc < 1259875774 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259875925 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@79.138.181.102.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259876243 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259876288 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259876961 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1259877125 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259877253 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259878298 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1259878339 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259879020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, agreed < 1259879063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :garlic is one of the most important, nay fundamental, components of a well balanced and well designed meal < 1259879201 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1259879223 0 :fizzie`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, there after my nickname. < 1259879229 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259879233 0 :fizzie`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ere/ere's some fly droppings/ < 1259879238 0 :fizzie`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :fizzie < 1259879297 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1259879324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh mouse speed < 1259879325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is odd < 1259879338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when switching client/servers of synergy < 1259879362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laptop speed is fine, desktop speed is too fast < 1259880462 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259880955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1259881111 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259881250 0 :Halph!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259881516 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1259882164 0 :Tomsik_!n=Tomsik@bbs170.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259882218 0 :Aedolon!n=jonas@82-168-4-18.ip.telfort.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259882651 0 :Aedolon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN HAZ STDIO? < 1259882846 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives Aedolon STDIO < 1259883866 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also the proof is a one-liner < 1259884395 0 :Tomsik_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Thus spoke Tomsik" < 1259884628 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone ever made an IRC bot written in an esoteric language? < 1259884647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259884654 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which language? < 1259884973 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L33t? < 1259885070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's fungot, he's written in Funge-98. < 1259885071 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i've been into c++ quite fnord, by state fnord? < 1259885080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1259885080 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1259885090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's them codes. < 1259885141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could count him doubly or triply esoteric, since in addition to the implementation language, he interprets Brainfuck and Underload too. < 1259885245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is pretty esoteric < 1259885263 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1259885408 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1259885432 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my goal is to make an IRC bot in an esoteric language < 1259885722 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well have a nice afternoon with that :) < 1259886074 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wont be too hard < 1259886075 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curses debian < 1259886090 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have made openoffice impossible to install < 1259886117 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried uninstalling it to fix some weird dependancy things < 1259886121 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I can't re-install it < 1259886144 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks < 1259886234 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1259886237 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what's up < 1259886260 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mysql-common 5.1.37-2" conflicts with... < 1259886262 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITSELF! < 1259886274 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how I get aptitude to ignore this fact < 1259886894 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259887375 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1259887465 0 :Oranjer!n=HP_Admin@adsl-71-0-97.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259890408 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"What are you sinking about?" < 1259890435 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1259890729 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259890738 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259890932 0 :Aedolon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12" < 1259890945 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259890950 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259891519 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1259891836 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259893216 0 :augur!n=augur@66.92.145.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259893680 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-108-52.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259894312 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259894542 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1259894566 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the solution was wget and dpkg -i for 2 of the packages, BTW) < 1259894686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259895402 0 :augur!n=augur@66.92.145.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259895441 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259898718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259899702 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259899727 0 :lifthrasiir!i=J03gwNOx@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259900628 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259901028 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259902127 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259904551 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259906158 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259907838 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(01:31:40 AM) <>: I don't know if its more messed up that its trying to compile Python.h or that it is trying to compiler Python.h < 1259907842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1259907849 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(01:31:11 AM) <>: SystemError: Cannot compiler 'Python.h'. < 1259907851 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then that < 1259907888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot parser sentence < 1259908774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259913599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1259913600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259916392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259919492 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259952562 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259952562 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1259952573 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259952626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb clog < 1259952630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have devised a disturbingly crazy language. < 1259952638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, rather, prototype-language. < 1259952680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives you a false sense of normality, then piles the WTF on you. It's not an esolang, but only because it's too dastardly for that. < 1259952879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: this is relevant to you, as it's sort of dependently typed < 1259953064 0 :lifthrasiir!i=mtHo0rFt@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259953065 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259953391 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259953398 0 :lifthrasiir!i=gLAQH63y@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259953499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/728558.txt?key=u4gd8tswifanismyu9dusg yes, I know the syntax is fugly < 1259953550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/728561.txt?key=niy1z20jplxlhak9uy8ya just realised i don't need the dots < 1259953652 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: wut < 1259953658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh tell me about a prototype language :D < 1259953664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prototype as in unformed < 1259953670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as in prototypical, though it is sort of that < 1259953674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more composition-based, though < 1259953681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oh ok < 1259953685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1259953686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has dependent types < 1259953688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically < 1259953697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no type/variable namespace dichotomy < 1259953705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no compile/runtime variable existence dichotomy < 1259953719 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so types exist in the single namespace, at compile time and at run time, simple as < 1259953723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, http://pastie.org/728561.txt?key=niy1z20jplxlhak9uy8ya is the hideous abomination in question < 1259953733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shows off one or two off the "unique" features < 1259953742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that that's incomplete see e.g. thee comment about * < 1259953745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the syntax is very first-draft < 1259953746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the < 1259953832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ret contents/ret elems/ < 1259953851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/728566.txt?key=gv9hd8rlldampcr5j0r3og < 1259953859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at all the mistakes i'm making, i need to sleep :) < 1259953865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh darn, another one < 1259953892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: http://pastie.org/728567.txt?key=dosixl4rjiqvmdqaefrna this, finally, should have no dumb mistakes < 1259953981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interesting elements there are rather subtle, and fuck my life, i just found another error < 1259954004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/728571.txt?key=zl2af7lovf0knbe3avpw < 1259954004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good lord. < 1259954201 0 :lifthras1ir!i=sLLNO9GA@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259954206 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259956295 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259956307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My computer problems: < 1259956308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic276368.html < 1259956397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nice. < 1259956785 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259957006 0 :lifthrasiir!i=MA85lEZj@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259958207 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259958540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See you tomorrow. < 1259958546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259959013 0 :lifthras1ir!i=Xw3b2g23@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259959459 0 :lifthras2ir!i=Spt7XTDV@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259959460 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259959812 0 :lifthras1ir!i=Bxbf2epR@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259959812 0 :lifthras2ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259960094 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1259960223 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259961568 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259961608 0 :lifthrasiir!i=irt6N6Um@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259962052 0 :lifthras1ir!i=BMWRc9Fg@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259962053 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259963055 0 :lifthrasiir!i=x3yD3Zkf@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259963055 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259963446 0 :lifthras1ir!i=Pav30IOe@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259963461 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259964111 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1259964493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259965071 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1259965928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259966763 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259966834 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259967122 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259967247 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lifthrasiir < 1259967297 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259968084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259968156 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259968507 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259968548 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259968885 0 :lifthrasiir!i=WyH9uAHy@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259969581 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259969645 0 :lifthras1ir!i=Zmwu7o7U@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259969646 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259970856 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259971724 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259971726 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey < 1259973644 0 :lifthrasiir!i=GBdaGWc0@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259973664 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259973954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259974709 0 :lifthras1ir!i=BzNqq9YZ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259974710 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259977101 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259977294 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259977295 0 :lifthrasiir!i=hfRlINoO@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259977473 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-2-234.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259977736 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259977740 0 :lifthrasiir!i=EkK5J6nH@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259978370 0 :lifthras1ir!i=uwepuFhC@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259978424 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259978760 0 :lifthras2ir!i=xHjka2nm@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259979019 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259979500 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259980613 0 :lifthras2ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259984368 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259984378 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259984598 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259985300 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-9-230.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259985886 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259989334 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259993197 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259996604 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259996740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc :) < 1259996748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1259996755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me what it was about < 1259996758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it so long ago < 1259996783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :president allosaurus agreed the world wasn't a strange place < 1259996832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1259996909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn i can only find 27 ninjas < 1259996921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles innocently < 1259996953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I can't find any < 1259996960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*WHOOSH* < 1259996981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I understood that... I was just continuing the joke < 1259997073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with AnMaster you never know whether there is a *WHOOSH* or not. just like ninjas. < 1259997407 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-19-16.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259997434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true < 1259997461 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-5-248.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259998584 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259999087 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259999648 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.237.227 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259999680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close encounters of the Hird kind. < 1259999713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:21:17 Stony Brook O_O < 1259999713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:21:20 oh right < 1259999713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:21:29 you're a cunt, now i remember < 1259999713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excuse me, don't you go there too < 1259999719 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NECROLOGREAD < 1259999818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:46:33 Asztal, my family name is of that type for example. But with a bit unusual spelling < 1259999818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norlander ~= north land/country? < 1259999841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:50:23 "KuraMoto" literally means storage-basis for example < 1259999841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good name for a file hosting company. < 1259999855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah, north = nord/norr and land/country = land < 1259999865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well, yeah spelling was changed somewhat < 1259999876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish is boring because you can mostly just pretend it's mangled English and figure out a lot :) < 1259999881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :German even moreso < 1259999899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again I guess that's all languages that English raped < 1259999911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you stole my reply :/ < 1259999949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice to have such a whore of a native language, though, for that utility :D < 1259999955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1259999999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260000000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260000017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:02:25 btw what is 1/INFINITY in double floating point? < 1260000017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:02:44 Assuming IEC 60559 conformance of course < 1260000017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> 1 / (1/0) :: Double < 1260000018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.0 < 1260000027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a smiley < 1260000035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I AM SHOCKED AT YOUR INTENT" < 1260000038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1260000048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghci is pretty strict with its ieee floating point i believe < 1260000113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, just because i explained google's new home page thing that doesn't mean i agree with it < 1260000121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i, too, find it irritating < 1260000153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1260000155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Starting this week, when we have high confidence that your query was misspelled, we go a step further than asking "Did you mean..." by automatically showing results for the corrected query, saving you a click. In case we did misinterpret the query, there will be a link at the top of the results to undo the auto-correction. So, the next time I'm visiting South Florida and accidentally search for [maimi restaurants], it's reassuring to know I'll quickly go < 1260000155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :straight to the results for what I really meant: Miami restaurants.]] < 1260000159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about time < 1260000351 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't they already do that? < 1260000363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they showed a preview of the results < 1260000370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way, if they have a high confidence of an error < 1260000374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah, okay < 1260000376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they show only the fixed results < 1260000378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an option to undo < 1260000384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7ZYqYi4xigk/Sxb_MsMIxyI/AAAAAAAAFC0/IqU_3tGQCUU/s1600-h/barcode_mockup_fade.gif ;; i have to admit though, this is hot < 1260000424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was _already_ finding google's tendency to second-guess me occasionally annoying :( < 1260000454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop whining and use grep query /the/internet. < 1260000463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google is clever; its suggestions are usually good. < 1260000554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yahoo! Selects Google as Search Engine Provider" —2000 (http://www.google.com/corporate/timeline/images/photos/XBD_HP_20000711.png) < 1260000569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yahoo! Selects Yahoo! as Search Engine Provider" —? < 1260000573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yahoo! Selects Bing as Search Engine Provider" —2009 < 1260001338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:15:06 1/inf == 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...............1 < 1260001338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:15:10 i guess < 1260001338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:15:14 the dots represent infinite 0's < 1260001338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at mathematics forever. < 1260001364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:17:42 0.999999999999.................. rounds to 1! < 1260001364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Die. < 1260001412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:22:05 0.33333... given that ... is "continue forever" is *exactly* 1/3. Multiplying it with 3 will *not* yield 0.999..., but exactly 1 < 1260001412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fail < 1260001413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general when somebody that young fails to understand something I don't think it's fair to say "forever", it's quite likely they'll understand it some time in the future < 1260001421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.333.... * 3 = 0.999... = 1 < 1260001430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.333... = 1/3 < 1260001433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3 * 3 = 1 < 1260001434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore < 1260001438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.999... = 1 < 1260001446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.333... * 3 does very well equal 0.999... < 1260001451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm allowed to memeify. < 1260001467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the word "forever" a meme now? < 1260001489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fail memes forever < 1260001520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "you fail X forever" is a meme < 1260001536 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1260001541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:39:49 otherwise casting to (bool) should make it well defined < 1260001541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:40:16 there is a bool type? < 1260001542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:40:34 in C99 yes < 1260001542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:40:36 in C89 no < 1260001542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incorrect; there is a _Bool type. There is also , which contains `#define bool _Bool`. < 1260001576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:57:53 To me Wave is an experiment by Google to see how long they can hold the attention of people with a product that makes no sense. < 1260001576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:57:56 Discuss. < 1260001576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's accidentally that < 1260001592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they came up with some reasonable ideas, built it, and then realised that is the only way for it to survive < 1260001601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they accidentally the sense < 1260001824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:05:53 what about three "that" then? < 1260001824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That that that's property, that's property. < 1260001831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's isn't really that. < 1260001865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:09:28 oklofok, what about: "using that that that construct outside contrived examples is really irritating"? < 1260001865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that that is perfectly proper English. as is had had. < 1260001875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He had had that that sucks before, but this time was different." < 1260001933 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260001985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:52:07 where can i find any source code for BSD dc < 1260001985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/ < 1260002019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:10:38 happy australian mailman reminders day! < 1260002019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Australian Mailman Mailing List Reminders Day < 1260002046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:14:50 this is your last day of being a teenager, ever < 1260002047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think being 19 is actually possible < 1260002051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when do you ever hear of someone being 19 < 1260002056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone is just in a void while they are 19 < 1260002085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:20:03 asiekierka: if you want to port a light dc, maybe you have more luck with p9p version < 1260002086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1260002103 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember being 19, so it must be a lie < 1260002119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:20:44 i think this one may roughly be related to the unix v7 one < 1260002120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:21:02 yup < 1260002120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:21:16 it is a port of (probably a bit newer) the version from unix v7 < 1260002120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a port of Plan 9's dc to POSIX with Plan 9 libraries. < 1260002133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9's dc was probably derived from Tenth Edition Unix, being its official successor. < 1260002141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i most certainly remember being 19. possibly the best life in my year so far. < 1260002147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1260002154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*year in my life < 1260002183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you'd be happier if you didn't spend all your time mentioning how gloomy you are < 1260002188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that that is perfectly proper English. as is had had. <-- yes, but still takes more work to parse than average. < 1260002219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:23:38 girls are always like uhh big day let's cuddle < 1260002219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:24:04 oklofok, anything wrong with that? < 1260002220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:24:49 well it's against the tradition. < 1260002220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok representin' < 1260002222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _don't_ remember spending all my time mentioning how gloomy i am, however < 1260002258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:48:35 line 814 < 1260002258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:48:35 Blk* div(Blk *ddivd, Blk *ddivr) < 1260002258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:48:35 3 "variable identifier expected" < 1260002259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:48:35 and 2 "undefined symbol:" one for 'ddivd' and one for 'ddivr' < 1260002259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blk isn't defined < 1260002260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef mistake < 1260002295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:21:47 just write a new backend for llvm, and some system specific header files and you are done < 1260002296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 k memory < 1260002309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't say llvm would run *on* it < 1260002313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then :P < 1260002315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm is a perfectly good cross compiler < 1260002503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to try to avoid the semicolon. < 1260002566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in what place? programming? natural language? < 1260002571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter. :P < 1260002583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:29:46 oklofok, how would this be handled if humanity started to colonise other planets? With possibly different lengths of day and year. < 1260002583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colon-ise < 1260002592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1260002595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice typo < 1260002634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:34:59 * AnMaster notes that writing (* 365 24 60 60) is much more compact than 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 (and skipping those spaces is ugly) < 1260002634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really that ugly. < 1260002637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no type < 1260002638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*typo < 1260002668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, 36524*60>60*. < 1260002668 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/>>/>/ < 1260002669 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HP in your face? :P < 1260002681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but if it wasn't ugly it wouldn't be sorter to write it in the former way < 1260002708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long live circular argument or something < 1260002746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:56:41 iirc he likes factor < 1260002746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh it's interesting < 1260002781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:03:43 anyway, I'm kind of worried < 1260002782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:03:48 there was a weird whirring sound for a while < 1260002782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:03:52 then a bang above me < 1260002782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:03:56 now there's the smell of burnt silicon < 1260002782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally seconds after complaining about the channel not being on-topic often < 1260002804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:04:36 overheard :P so now we're confusing overload and overheard too! < 1260002804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overhird! < 1260002841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with RPN for complex statements is that the operands' meaning depend on the operator unless we're talking about basic arithmetic < 1260002848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have to keep a mental stack of uninterpreted operands < 1260002927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:19:41 don't make math too formal it takes the soul out of it < 1260002927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, and your name quantumEd, means you are now officially an "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" quack. < 1260002931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have a nice day. < 1260002969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:27:34 oklofok just look at this picture, http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/MathGems/pics/pythagorean_theorem.gif -- this proves pythagoras without any "R" or "metric" or analytic geometry < 1260002970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate visual proofs. < 1260002995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:32:35 if you were traveling near speed of light, that proof wouldn't apply anymore < 1260002995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :marry me < 1260003107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:34:36 I would say it is: Mathematics < 1260003107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:34:41 it is not: mathematics < 1260003107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:34:46 it has nothing to do with: mathematics < 1260003108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:35:01 maybe to you mathematics is deduction trees which a computer can say "VALID" or "INVALID" < 1260003108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are ignorant to the highest degree. < 1260003239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:26:24 also why is it so hard to remember quantumEd is fax < 1260003239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is? < 1260003288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:27:09 except to get statements from us that you could later use to destroy our political careers < 1260003289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Raping horses with a stick is the only moral thing to do when confronted with a child molester. < 1260003292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There goes my career! < 1260003327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:37:14 oklofok: you know, it's OK to unbelieve things you previously believed if someone points out errors in them < 1260003327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut up, science-fascist! < 1260003410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:36:10 ok, consider a "times table" (a table where the element at (i,j) is i*j) < 1260003410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR J < 1260003496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor I got left out < 1260003555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot j lulz < 1260003846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:37:28 (short)x is in the same memory location as (long)x < 1260003846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:37:43 if you use big-endian, you have to write code for downcasting < 1260003846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:37:58 this is the main theoretical advantage for little-endian, as far as I know < 1260003847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am now a little-endian fan < 1260003966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:45:12 AnMaster: I/O, etc < 1260003967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:45:17 as in, you need inline ASM < 1260003967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:45:19 or something else similar < 1260003967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned char *out = 0xB0000; < 1260004009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh context of the I/O stuff < 1260004019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rtfl < 1260004022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what were we discussing < 1260004048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09.12.01 < 1260004063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, don't care enough < 1260004392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, AnMaster? < 1260004394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A very large, 30-year study of just about everyone in Scandinavia shows no link between mobile phone use and brain tumours." < 1260004406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I expect it'll stop your irrationality about that matter. < 1260004406 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of things not to care about, I have this N900 phone now. < 1260004420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Nice timing. < 1260004424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did you see my message? < 1260004493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sort-of. I did see it, but I was already writing what I wrote when I saw it. < 1260004527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err, I didn't say I believed that. I only think I said I prefer being cautious < 1260004541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, even now? < 1260004562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION read that as NMT-900 < 1260004565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The study provides overwhelming evidence that phones do fuck all as far as brain tumours go. < 1260004579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I assume you pray 5 times a day to Mecca— to be cautious in case the Islamic god exists? < 1260004590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is it 5 or 7 times?) < 1260004591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well sure. But at least some types of cancer can take quite some time to develop iirc. :P < 1260004601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 < 1260004617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The worst kind of idiot is the idiot who tries to ignore his stupidity with a bad joke. < 1260004638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I wasn't replying to the praying line... < 1260004643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said that. < 1260004655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if mobile phones take 30 years to develop cancer then _absolutely_ no one has any evidence that it does < 1260004669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it won't have _happened_ yet < 1260004670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true < 1260004681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ha! I don't know anything about how science works, and will summarily ignore this study with a huge base of evidence, yet continue to believe in evolution, even though all we have for that is that same pesky *evidence*." < 1260004683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... :P" < 1260004718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think we can be quite safe in about 100 years or so. Becuase if it causes cancer over longer periods than that it can currently be safely assumed we will be killed by something else before instead. < 1260004726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260004768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[It is possible, Deltour's team wrote, that it takes longer than 10 years for tumours caused by mobile phones to turn up, that the tumours are too rare in this group to show a useful trend, or that there are trends but in subgroups too small to be measured in the study. < 1260004768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260004769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is just as possible that mobile phones do not cause brain tumours, they added.]] < 1260004795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You should be just as cautious of radio. < 1260004796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I read about this study in the newspaper today (or was it yesterday?) < 1260004802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May I suggest moving to an area where you cannot receive radio? < 1260004805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's radiation, you know. < 1260004816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say that everything's radiation. Sort of. I guess. < 1260004847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, lets avoid sun light (hey that one *does* cause cancer) < 1260004869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How on earth can you make a joke based entirely around your foolishness and yet still go by it? < 1260004874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes almost a negative amount of sense. < 1260004940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um. Because you have been misunderstanding what my actual opinion on mobile phone radiation issues is? < 1260004942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: if it had been NTM-900, then it would really have been something not to care about < 1260004959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm basing it entirely on what you've said today. < 1260004983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is: "I only think I said I prefer being cautious" < 1260004986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, do you have anything against: "better safe than sorry" < 1260004997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, because you're not trying to avoid radio signals, are you? < 1260005003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or low levels of sunliight. < 1260005006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sunlight < 1260005011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, always interpreting any sentence in the way that most implies its source is an idiot < 1260005016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, there is also evidence that we need sunlight < 1260005026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, too low = bad, too high = bad < 1260005032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think you'll find he's interpreting it in the same way. Care to offer me whatever hackneyed interpretation you take? < 1260005036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/high/much/ < 1260005050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's irrelevant. Anyway, you are still dodging the matter of radio signals. < 1260005061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i'm making a general statement here < 1260005074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, the radiation from phones is non-ionizing. < 1260005095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the range of tens of millions time weaker than it would take to be the weakest ionising sort. < 1260005103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i understand it correctly, which i think i do. < 1260005120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ionising radiation is what fucks up dna, and causes cancer. < 1260005143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and... < 1260005143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1260005143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At room temperature, your DNA is rattled around by thermal fluctuations with an energy on the order of 0.026 eV. So you can absorb radiation (Infrared Light) on this order of energy without any problem other than possibly getting hot. < 1260005143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to start harming DNA, and thus helping cause cancer, you need to hit it with photons of 3 eV or more (ultraviolet light). < 1260005144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cell phone radiation, on the other hand, consists of photons with around 0.000001 eV of energy (~ 1 GHz - 5 GHz ). So getting bombarded with a few of these photons isn't going to have any effect. < 1260005147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]]] < 1260005154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess you avoid ... existitng < 1260005173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with all that over-80-times-more-powerful-than-phones radiation < 1260005177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*existing < 1260005747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:58:51 Sgeo: It's brilliant. It's the smallest device I've ever seen that a criminal could use to steal card numbers < 1260005747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean... getting people to tell you their number? < 1260005752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Store owners are EEEEEEEEEVIL < 1260005773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Credit cards are insecure anyway. < 1260005782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone you've ever bought from could purchase things as you forever. < 1260005802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um they have expiration dates don't they? < 1260005855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260005861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, forever=as long as you can use it. < 1260005865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:58:11 uuuuurgh < 1260005865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:58:16 what happened to ehird < 1260005866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:02:08 there was a tragic accident involving cheddar, a moose and five ancient OSes < 1260005866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:02:30 while ehird survived (barely), the cheddar did not. < 1260005866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1260005904 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260005923 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260005934 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1260005964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:42:53 http://ismarriagelegalintexas.com/ < 1260005965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnomiclegalintexas < 1260006134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isrunningwordstogetherlegalintexas < 1260006316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:10:13 like, office suite, compiler, vector graphics editor, "better than paint" bitmap editor (gimp) < 1260006317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimp isn't better than paint, just more powerful < 1260006360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:10:57 ais523, xp x64 needs around 2.5 GB iirc < 1260006360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:11:00 way more reasonable < 1260006361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Oberon OS is available for several other hardware platforms, generally in no cost versions. It is typically extremely compact. Even with an Oberon compiler, assorted utilities including a web browser, TCP/IP networking, and a GUI, the entire package has been able to fit on a single 3.5" floppy disk." < 1260006377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay okay so I'm raving a bit on the Oberon OS' design, shut up. < 1260006381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't say it was good. Just more reasonable :P < 1260006389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*OS's, fuck s-with-no-s-thingy < 1260006417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s with no s? < 1260006422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS' vs OS's < 1260006423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh i need to set up bitlbee again to connect to m*b*s < 1260006445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so care to give a summary about what the hell was going on last week and few weeks before that? < 1260006457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really. also, it's not over yet. < 1260006461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260006467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck with.... whatever it is < 1260006478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get another break from me next mon-fri ;p < 1260006479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1260006495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, huh. What sort of strange thing may this be < 1260006524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's complicated < 1260006544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, parent got fired? < 1260006556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can sit there guessing for a few years and it won't help. < 1260006559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1260006560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260006581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so tell us! < 1260006587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1260006601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just love having secrets right? < 1260006656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, feel free to fuck off. < 1260006954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:52:10 skullfuck is the more popular term < 1260006955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:54:07 I meant, being done, rather than being talked about < 1260006955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:54:24 i imagine it's difficult to find a willing partner < 1260006955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:54:54 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz < 1260006955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:17:36 lament: who said they had to be willing? < 1260006956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either we just jumped the shark, or the shark just jumped us. < 1260006957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure which. < 1260006981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:06:44 but than that means your solve_halting_program() function cannot return either true or false for that particular program because then the program uses the solution to prove it false < 1260006982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::slowpoke: < 1260007012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:18:33 quantumEd: ... "Well-founded recursion"? < 1260007012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:18:49 you are allowed to loop on smaller inputs than what you were given only < 1260007012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:19:09 so that every function (that's execution doesn't reach any "loop") terminates < 1260007012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:19:28 And how do you intend to enforce such a restriction? < 1260007013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible. < 1260007020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:20:35 ... And for that matter, what does "smaller inputs" mean? < 1260007020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's well-defined. < 1260007026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The resultant language is sub-TC, but not too bad. < 1260007041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2003 < 1260007041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf < 1260007060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:29:53 quantumEd: What sort of ridiculous restriction on the type system *could you do* to make that not well-typed? < 1260007060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See above. < 1260007062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not useless. < 1260007066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: we don't jump the shark. we tie it up and force it to do computation. < 1260007070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:31:34 quantumEd: By "useful", I mean "capable of non-trivial calculation". < 1260007071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can do Ackermann. < 1260007258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:20:53 ah yes those ones. who has those anymore? ;P < 1260007258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher-quality keys. < 1260007273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there are other mechanical switches apart from buckling spring < 1260007399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:24:09 (01:31:11 AM) <>: SystemError: Cannot compiler 'Python.h'. < 1260007418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Karnts kompiler Pygthon.h < 1260007423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suck at faux-german < 1260007483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw more people should go wtf at my sort-of-early-draft-thingy-work-in-progress-vaguely-formed-ideas dependently-typed-of-a-sort pastie.org/728571.txt?key=zl2af7lovf0knbe3avpw. < 1260007492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/728571.txt?key=zl2af7lovf0knbe3avpw for clickability < 1260007586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm another mistake? < 1260007590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suck at this :D < 1260007621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/729217.txt?key=y9oq5kkybo7uhz8eyr9vq < 1260007622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed < 1260007638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(s/List\.on/List.of/) < 1260008007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers using haskell < 1260008029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the effort of a haskell compiler, ugh < 1260008714 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260008880 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260010025 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260011001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1260011053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Context of that oh? < 1260011059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : except for the effort of a haskell compiler, ugh < 1260011079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, an Oberon-2 compiler is about 4,000 lines. < 1260011089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Haskell compiler is more like 50,000. < 1260011098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think GHC is about 100k lines of Haskell. < 1260011114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oberon-2 compiler would be more like 3,000 lines in Haskell, I guess. < 1260011137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the snippet I pasted should be quite simple to compile too. < 1260011150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that requires 33x the effort of an Oberon-2 compiler I probably won't want to do. < 1260011152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260011161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell could fit in quite nicely to the system, but eh. < 1260011182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100k lines feel so inelegant somehow < 1260011243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: GHC does a *lot*. < 1260011251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1260011362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC is pig-ugly code < 1260011369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is stuff in there that makes its own monad infrastructure < 1260011376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because monads didn't exist at the time < 1260011379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell < 1260011425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it still uses non-monadic Haskell? < 1260011427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eeeeew. < 1260011544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did haskell use before monads? < 1260011560 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISTS < 1260011683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lists of actions for the IO monad, lists of other things otherwise. < 1260011760 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp had it right, CAR CDR and all that < 1260011778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp had it wrong. < 1260011786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can modify state. < 1260011795 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah I forgot about that < 1260011870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You forgot continuation IO. < 1260011876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it was for non-IO stuff. < 1260011879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is just in some parts. < 1260011886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other parts use regular Prelude Monads. < 1260012193 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq what was the argument against modifying state again? < 1260012704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: There is no state. There is only lambda. < 1260012716 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1260012732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a more serious note: a lack of state greatly aids reasoning about your program. < 1260012779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Separation of Church and state. < 1260012785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyuk hyuk hyuk get it lambda calculus church? < 1260012786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahaha < 1260012788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am funny comedian < 1260012879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: have you looked at the oberon os? the paradigm is like plan 9's acme (inspired it) ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/ETHOberon/Native/StdAlone/ < 1260012894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you'll have better luck at getting it to run in a vm than me, I think it'd be interesting to have an oberon-os-but-haskell < 1260012896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't say I have. < 1260012896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar < 1260012918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the paradigm blends hypertext with code, it's a living-environment like smalltalk < 1260012926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have code inline with documents < 1260012932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's how you run commands and open things etc < 1260012951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everything is text, except it handles multimedia and formatting too < 1260012959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's best at manipulating text/commands < 1260012975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it divides the whole window into frames like acme, and they're as fluid as acme's frames < 1260013059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can boot it in qemu but the old-IDE disk driver spews a lot of crap and after installation+reboot, it just hangs trying to boot < 1260013079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the implications are really interesting — the installer is the same as its documentation < 1260013096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1260013098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just has hyperlinked commands at certain points that you erase the arguments of and fill in the appropriate ones as explained, then middle-click the command name < 1260013151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and e.g. partitioning is done by middle-clicking (iirc) Partition.Show, which brings up another frame, scrolling down to the partition-creation command, replacing and and middle-clicking it < 1260013160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have a sort of composition of tools there, into one documentation-tool < 1260013200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Researchers from Helsinki University of Technology (Finland), University of New South Wales (Australia), and University of Melbourne (Australia) have succeeded in building a working transistor, whose active region composes only of a single phosphorus atom in silicon. The results have just been published in Nano Letters. < 1260013205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grats, fizzie + Deewiant :P < 1260013215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We didn't do it < 1260013236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tkk is your uni < 1260013243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your uni was part of it, the news article is on the tkk site < 1260013245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I REST MY CASE < 1260013254 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever < 1260013269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: moody :p < 1260013272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1260013327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: clearly Deewiant is just denying it so no one will notice their nanobots taking over the world < 1260013339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmf < 1260013339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmf < 1260013341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MMPH < 1260013342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$(*$&@&(@(&@ < 1260013349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello i am grey goo < 1260013356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(british gray goo) < 1260013366 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1260013373 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point in ?C=M;O=D ? < 1260013377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorting < 1260013404 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1260013421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260013440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Column=Modified < 1260013443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Order=Descending < 1260013524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :futura was designed by a german, I am the least surprised < 1260013780 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what did you do when you were 19? < 1260013826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably was unconscious for a whole year, knowing oerjan's fatalistic outlook < 1260013925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: any luck with oberon or not interesteed? < 1260013974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 9~Bit busy trying to find keys. < 1260013983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wat? < 1260013989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, physical keys. < 1260014001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260014018 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That, and your name quantumEd, means you are now officially an "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" quack. <<< THANK you < 1260014022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in door-openers. < 1260014034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: no, thank YOU! < 1260014038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a war on thanks < 1260014066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather people were outright religious than quantum-mystical < 1260014077 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... i was agreeing with you, do i really have to fight you now? < 1260014079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pathetic to see them denigrate the beauty of quantum mechanics in such a way < 1260014088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: well, i don't know what to do otherwise :D < 1260014120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: i started university < 1260014155 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260014159 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok what ? < 1260014162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also went to the math olympiad. although i'm not quite sure if that was before or after my birthday < 1260014173 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you do? < 1260014176 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok is that about me < 1260014195 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: you can read logs, basically i'm thanking ehird for being on my side about our debate < 1260014205 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok us two had a debate? < 1260014208 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260014208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly mediocre < 1260014213 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok what was it about < 1260014227 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :short one, but i count it as a great irc debate, because it didn't turn into a flamewar :) < 1260014231 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok oh you're taking the piss out of me because I have a different philosophy to mathematics than you do < 1260014238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does something incredibly unlikely < 1260014239 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok that's kinda lame < 1260014260 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking the piss out of you? < 1260014268 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" < 1260014272 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just saying thanks for agreeing with me < 1260014289 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did I agree with you on? < 1260014293 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yeah, that's how ehird says he disagrees < 1260014303 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: Your definition of "mathematics" is wrong. < 1260014307 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :felt like you were making fun of me with it < 1260014307 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON GRRRR I HATE TYOU SO MUSCH!?!?1?1?" < 1260014329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I don't hate him, he's just a quack. < 1260014332 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying i completely agree with you being totally insane :P < 1260014359 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah not sure what you're getting at but it seems like you're taking the piss < 1260014361 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like it when ehird agrees with me, because i don't like being the quack... well okay i suppose i do < 1260014396 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: okay w/e < 1260014416 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't really recommend spontaneously teleporting like that, what if you end up inside something? < 1260014417 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, but i got the gist of it < 1260014430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no this is even stranger < 1260014436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1260014440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, using a floppy device! < 1260014443 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok are you referring to something someone said in particular? because I probably don't know what it is if so < 1260014445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you broke backwards compatibility? < 1260014446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1260014446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1260014454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an USB one even. < 1260014477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :connected to an ibook. < 1260014503 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: wtf? i'm fucking pasting a line someone said and thanking them for agreeing with me, and you start saying i urinate, look in the fucking logs and stop being a bitch kay? < 1260014528 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: oh you didn't write this? "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" < 1260014534 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260014536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it ducks like a quack... < 1260014546 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nono, i wrote that, then pasted it here and thanked myself < 1260014548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: no, I did. < 1260014551 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260014552 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:48:47 That, and your name quantumEd, means you are now officially an "omg math is innate beauty it doesn't have to be formal, plus quantum effects=consciousness=UNIVERSE MATTER TRANSCEND BEAUTY" quack. < 1260014560 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you thought that was me, then i see why you'd be mad < 1260014568 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I don't read a lot of what ehird writes < 1260014573 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260014579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My words are made of pure pain! < 1260014581 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok um.. thanks for making me aware of this though < 1260014584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1260014593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, aware of it. I think I'm supposed to be scared now. < 1260014614 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignorance is bliss kinda thing < 1260014646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you've been quantum observed! < 1260014659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prepare to collapse! < 1260014667 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: and "THANK you" wasn't exactly a sincere thanks, it was sort of sarcastic, because he sort of did what i definitely didn't want to do, and said something that usually leads to a flamewar on irc. < 1260014673 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1260014690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure why i'm explaining myself < 1260014694 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok dunno it's pissing off me though, I left because ehird is such a cunt, now I can't even /ignore him < 1260014703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you realize this has now officially turned into a flamewar anyhow? < 1260014716 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260014719 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to both of you < 1260014754 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but it was just because of misinterpretation, unlike most other flamewars! < 1260014761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell just happened < 1260014767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the floppy drive in my desktop < 1260014770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made X crash < 1260014779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I get IO error on my SATA drive < 1260014783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I try to read from it < 1260014800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ridiculous < 1260014818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's reproducible btw < 1260014840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, any bright idea about that? < 1260014856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1260014957 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to be reminded how pathetically antisocial and confrontation I am too by you folks < 1260014958 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did someone say ELIZA? http://www.atariarchives.org/morebasicgames/showpage.php?page=58 < 1260014976 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: anyway i find that sometimes people that are total cunts are the ones that really make you wonder whether you're as great a person as you could be; not saying ehird has made me change my ways, but a few other total cunts have made quite an impression! :P < 1260015002 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, i was a full 24 hours back in the scrollback < 1260015015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: i wasn't personally attacking you, btw. < 1260015019 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok I don't really follow, the deal was: don't read stuff from ehird - don't get into some horrible droning argument that nobody wants to hear < 1260015020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just your beliefs about mathematics < 1260015040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try not to attack people (I usually mean "you're being an idiot" when I say "you're an idiot") < 1260015051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: that was a general comment, it was not about this thing here < 1260015066 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I got that < 1260015136 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260015157 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, a certain well-known #math cunt has changed my views about mathematics quite a lot < 1260015173 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a bad way? < 1260015173 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1260015190 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :views can only be changed in a good way < 1260015199 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's i who changes them < 1260015207 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't take it personally, I'm a mathematician, and I love math, but I hate #math < 1260015216 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well #math is full of cunts < 1260015219 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah #math is not really a good place < 1260015220 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260015225 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither is this channel < 1260015229 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that, really makes you think what you say < 1260015248 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the kind of place where you don't want to turn on your brain because you're only not going to get insulted if you say the pattern match responses < 1260015261 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260015264 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: so how is your OK-language or whatever? < 1260015278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern shmattern < 1260015281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1260015289 0 :augur!n=augur@pool-71-163-207-43.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260015296 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: a simple version of oklotalk got implemented in python, but i've kinda gotten out of programming < 1260015310 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260015318 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gotten into it :) < 1260015336 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote an OpenType to JSON converter yesterday :) < 1260015341 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i still code like little snippets every now and then, but bigger i don't really have time for bigger programs < 1260015345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-bigger < 1260015351 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird can I PM you or are you going to be a bitch about it? < 1260015366 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've usually just pm'd him without asking < 1260015372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, i can't promise anything mr quantum ed < 1260015382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you mean oklotalk--? < 1260015383 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok yeah but past experience tells me that it's probably best to point this out here first < 1260015390 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, oklotalk-- < 1260015397 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's not really a simple version of oklotalk... < 1260015402 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird fine, fuck you then < 1260015414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: uh, fine, pm me < 1260015421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i won't be a bitch < 1260015452 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can assure everyone, that there will never be a moment in my life, or a person annoying enough, that i wouldn't love being pm'd by them < 1260015459 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you're starting to sound like one < 1260015461 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: *that* one you can quote < 1260015473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: k < 1260015482 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: jk ;) < 1260015488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kjk < 1260015494 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop talking in ehird'd favorite languages < 1260015497 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ehird's < 1260015502 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ok < 1260015522 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is o a language? i probably should know... < 1260015529 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1260015529 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay obviously it's a language < 1260015538 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: i'm sort of an o-philiac < 1260015546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: "k" "j" < 1260015549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are not actually my favourite languages < 1260015555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a joek, thou seest < 1260015560 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260015569 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like "D" myself < 1260015579 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all my favorite words start with d < 1260015588 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like delicious and dick < 1260015601 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Dance, Drive, Dying < 1260015615 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe not dying < 1260015633 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like driving, its fun < 1260015634 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure you meant coloring things pretty < 1260015642 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes < 1260015651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dodger dastardly devouring dick < 1260015664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :death, destiny and despair < 1260015747 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my cousin asked me when i'm getting a car, i said i don't have a license, he was like when are you getting it? apparently it's not a choice < 1260015747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah it's sandman) < 1260015747 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one day, when I have 1,000 code monkeys on my payroll, I will write a bloated IDE/Editor/Browser/Neuralnet that will start with D too < 1260015747 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had this dream about driving a motorcycle, and have been wanting to try one since then, though, as i've mentioned here < 1260015747 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Destiny! i like that one < 1260015762 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depressed... < 1260015787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delirium, dream, destruction and desire, to complete the set < 1260015825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :donkey < 1260015836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doofus < 1260015844 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doozer < 1260015964 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.120.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260016275 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A defence of preemptive multitasking: http://sprunge.us/YNUJ < 1260016277 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I felt like writing that. < 1260016309 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: you still haven't /msg'd me like you said < 1260016336 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: there aren't people still preaching non-preemptive multitasking, surely? < 1260016359 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(were there ever?) < 1260016359 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are (and visionary people too), lemme find an example < 1260016438 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/cliki/no-kernel.html, fourth paragraph onwardfs < 1260016441 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*onwards < 1260016446 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pluggable task-switching, but still < 1260016459 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm quite pleased with http://sprunge.us/YNUJ, it's concise and easy-to-read < 1260016469 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i normally end up with too short/too long paragraphs/sentences < 1260016500 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm the last newline should be before the though, "system." is a widow < 1260016519 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, orphan < 1260016582 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/RMJD for typographic pedants < 1260016672 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: also: http://tunes.org/cliki/preemption_20and_20cooperation.html "Now, TUNES is a secure system, and we can and shall use cooperation whenever possible (=almost always)" < 1260016678 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mrph, that tunes link is interesting but doesnt seem to grapple with the fact that preemptive multitasking is good both for the abstraction/layering reason you give in your essay but also as a pragmatic protection against buggy applications, aka 99.99% of applications < 1260016678 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that page is actually on that topic < 1260016682 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a better resourcee < 1260016692 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it may rebut your points, I haven't read it yet < 1260016708 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I noted the protection aspect too in my ...work/page/article/note/essay/whatever < 1260016715 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Preemptive < 1260016716 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multitasking handles malicious or badly-written tasks much better, < 1260016716 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too: you have a chance to terminate a task that tries to hog the < 1260016716 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system." < 1260016750 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and before that: "Worse, the < 1260016752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programmers of a task are probably not experts in task-switching, < 1260016752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so it's quite likely they'll get it wrong." < 1260016784 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Actually, threads are interrupted and signaled by more priviledged threads, but not preempted by equally-priviledged threads. (they might be preempted by foreign threads, to which they can't compare priviledge). This is why we rather call that interruptible cooperative threads instead of preemptible threads." < 1260016789 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what that means < 1260016822 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: the thing with tunes is that fare is a very strong libertarian < 1260016825 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means a thread that's not running can ask to be run, if needed! < 1260016835 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so it makes quite a lot of compromises in the name of freedom and independence of tasks < 1260016863 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he views system design as an exercise in ethics) < 1260016944 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs threads when you can just buy multiple computers < 1260016952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260016952 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1260016958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ninja'd < 1260016960 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i kind of feel that way also, but i guess my ethical baseline is that if the code is open, you can always change it - and the ability to change the code means sometimes you just hard code it and figure anyone who needs to will hack it and recompile < 1260017028 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i understand of course that tunes is fully self-modifying and reflexive so that particular example is a bit un-tunesish) < 1260017044 0 :lifthrasiir!i=fWB6YwGS@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260017046 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although really having a compiler means you are still in a self modifying environment < 1260017066 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats part of why im not fully sold on some of ideas you seem committed to, because i think they dont necessarily change as much as you might suppose < 1260017096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of my ideas aren't big in themselves, but have a large effect on the system's architecture and philosohpy < 1260017287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: do you know how the viewpoints research institute is funded? < 1260017313 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92.236.187.64 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260017319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :donations and company funding < 1260017320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how boring < 1260017347 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you hoping they sponsored a team of somali pirates? < 1260017372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh, I'm not sure if you knew this before, apologies if you did: there's a proposal in the UK government that gives Lord Mandelson a dictatorship < 1260017374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :P < 1260017398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought maybe doing work for companies, letting people use unused computing power for a cost, etc < 1260017413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: an absolute dictatorship? < 1260017466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: pretty much, it's a "Mandelson can modify this law by [method]" with ineffective safeguards < 1260017489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't expect it would actually be abused in such a way, thankfully. < 1260017497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to get off this island ASAP anyway, though... < 1260017514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it yourself if you like: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldbills/001/10001.13-19.html#j164 < 1260017518 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an extra room here < 1260017543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: i'm not sure i could legally move in with you before i'm 16 :P < 1260017557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: can you shorten this perl -n oneliner? < 1260017558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$n{$_}++}{print"$n{$_}\t$_"foreach keys%n < 1260017563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't think of any fun horrid tricks < 1260017572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi there. I had an odd hardware issue you might be of help with: < 1260017583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the braces aren't even balanced there, that's crasily abusive. I like it < 1260017591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, use "for" not "foreach", they're synonyms < 1260017594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : using the floppy drive in my desktop made X crash and I get IO error on my SATA drive when I try to read from the floppy < 1260017599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's ridiculous it's reproducible btw < 1260017608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, it's abusing the implicit while(<>){code} :) < 1260017611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260017616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: probably not without parental permissionz < 1260017623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you have any idea whatsoever might be going on there? < 1260017628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't < 1260017630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/if/do/ < 1260017642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does say output a newline if the argument ends with one? < 1260017671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, but it's perl6 anyway < 1260017677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the rest of the syntax there would be wrong < 1260017678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's perl 5.10 < 1260017686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's been backported? < 1260017694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same time as the switch thing < 1260017711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ perl -v < 1260017711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is perl, v5.8.9 built for darwin-2level < 1260017711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking macports < 1260017721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, you could use an implicit hash->array cast < 1260017723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: could you test perl -e'say "fuck\n"' for me? < 1260017734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you didn't mind the output format being line\ncount\n < 1260017735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, any non-fuck string too < 1260017738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than count\tline\n < 1260017742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i do, that's why i didn't do it < 1260017757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: could I do < 1260017757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "say "test\n"" < 1260017759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Do you need to predeclare say?) < 1260017761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like php's variable variables < 1260017763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :${$_}++ < 1260017768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like say isn't defined < 1260017774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: use 5.10 < 1260017777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am < 1260017779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use 5.10; < 1260017781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1260017782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260017802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1260017802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl v5.100.0 required (did you mean v5.10.0?)--this is only v5.10.0, stopped. < 1260017806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I didn't expect that < 1260017810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl -M5.10.0 -e'...' < 1260017827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get two newlines if I do -M5.01, though < 1260017841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1260017861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ${'foo'} = x < 1260017865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set $foo to x? < 1260017873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260017875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolic reference < 1260017876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, is there an easy way to get all defined variables that aren't in perl? < 1260017881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, use strict may get annoyed if you do that < 1260017883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an array of names < 1260017889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not AFAIK < 1260017896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there was: < 1260017900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :${$_}++}{print"${$_}\t$_"for ??? < 1260017904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a hard way, though < 1260017938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, perldoc.perl.org is now ugly < 1260018033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: any silly tasks to do in perl? i'm trying to sharpen my art of the horror < 1260018044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to think of perl as a game. a ridiculous game. < 1260018066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try writing a brute-force Lights Out solver < 1260018081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did almost that yesterday, to help solve an Enigma level < 1260018088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(someone else's level, that is) < 1260018099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brute-force? how? < 1260018106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that super-mega-exponentially-hard? < 1260018136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the Bible has a copyright statement < 1260018140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, a license < 1260018142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." < 1260018142 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a perl program that converts other perl programs into a human readable form < 1260018151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 Timothy 3:16-17 < 1260018184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone link me to the source code of use English? < 1260018212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd just make it do an s// < 1260018213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila < 1260018215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human readable! < 1260018278 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: for an nxn grid it'd take 2^(n*n) attempts < 1260018280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ooh, give me something mathematical, and i/we can golf perl vs j < 1260018292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you mean 2^(n^2) :P < 1260018300 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i mean that too < 1260018301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moar 2s < 1260018327 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean (2^n)^n < 1260018353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i mean aaaaaaaaaaall sorts of things" < 1260018367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is this lights out? < 1260018375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/ < 1260018378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a logic game < 1260018382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1260018393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't ask you. I asked ais523 < 1260018403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You asked it in a public forum. < 1260018434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, That is no reason to give unhelpful answers. < 1260018440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1260018453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was not helpful; had you followed it, you would have reached an answer far richer than ais523's. < 1260018456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it was not unhelpful < 1260018543 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you have a universe U, and a set of subsets of U, called S, you are then given a problem instance I, which is a subset of U, and you need to find a subset Z of S such that when you take the multiset M given by the union of sets in Z, each element of I appears in M an odd number of times, and each element in U\I appears an even amount of times < 1260018558 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't get that from google < 1260018577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom doesn't get that from google < 1260018584 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, that's a good one < 1260018599 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260018603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: i think your HIGHLY COMPLEX MATHEMATICS might go over AnMaster's head. < 1260018608 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refers to the fact my mom doesn't watch porn < 1260018615 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :highly :P < 1260018631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/DAPM/perl-5.10.1/lib/English.pm < 1260018635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to train my incomprehensibility < 1260018640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry I didn't answer sooner < 1260018644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bah, too complex < 1260018679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the way it's copying symbol table references < 1260018803 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in lights out, basically we can just think of this as summing a bunch of vectors to another vector, which is basic linear algebra, assuming you know finite fields form vector spaces when you take, well, vectors of them < 1260018839 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, evolution keeps crashing when I load it < 1260018842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't doing that earlier... < 1260018870 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that doesn't really solve the part where you want the least amount of presses < 1260018885 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the complexity? < 1260018932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brute-forcing is 2^(n^2), presumably that's beatable < 1260019034 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well finding a solution is clearly in P < 1260019042 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way i explained < 1260019051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the best way to geneerate a times table in j is < 1260019055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1260019068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a P-time linear algebra algorithm that works even over modulo-N arithmetic? < 1260019105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, (i.10)*/i.10 < 1260019125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/geneer/gener/ < 1260019133 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take all the sets in S, and think of them as length n*n vectors, then find a nice basis for the space of n*n vectors, and store which sets of S are used to get each vector in the basis < 1260019134 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1+i.9)*/1+i.10 if you don't want 0s < 1260019175 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get a nice orthonormal basis, with 000...00100...000 vectors, it's trivial to find a solution < 1260019203 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you have 00110, just take the vectors 00100 and 00010, and sum the vectors of S used to get them < 1260019236 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you have a finite field F, F^n forms a vector space over F < 1260019256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1+i.9)%/1+i.9 < 1260019259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The division table! < 1260019274 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if p is prime, then 0, .., p-1 form a finite field < 1260019281 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case we have 0, 1 < 1260019299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.10)+/i.10 wraps in a fun way < 1260019319 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any "linear algebra algorithm" should work on them just as well as with real vectors or whatever you have < 1260019326 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know what a linear algebra algorithm is < 1260019409 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in particular, gaussian elimination works directly in the case of binary arithmetic < 1260019495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1260019513 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i = 1...n, you just take some vector that has 1 as its ith bit, and add it to all other vectors that have i as their ith bit < 1260019527 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if no such vector exists, just skip that part < 1260019531 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that index < 1260019599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: what's the j thingy for making a number into a string < 1260019611 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry, i don't know anything about j's strings < 1260019644 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like they're that important............................... < 1260019674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL YOU SHOULD :| < 1260019699 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it's called row echelon form < 1260019738 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i kinda want to write a generic lights out solver :P < 1260019750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it! < 1260019774 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better still if you somehow make it TC < 1260019782 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260019817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there 3d lights out < 1260019838 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mine is already much more general than nd < 1260019843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, n-dimensional sounds even more fun < 1260019863 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just doing this for generic S \subset 2^U < 1260019884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, U being the universe set? < 1260019924 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for say 3-dimensional, you'd have n^3 elements in U, then form S by taking the, well, whatever form you want your "explosion sizes" to be < 1260019931 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260019933 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*explosions < 1260019957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm makes kind of sense. I think I understood some parts of it at least :) < 1260019962 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U being the universe, or you could just think of it as the length of vectors, and give |U| < 1260019969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh /me tries to remember if j has an adverb meaning repeat argument < 1260019977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adv+v x → x v x < 1260019995 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest you study basic linear algebra, it's sort of ubiquitous stuff < 1260020029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I do know *basic* linear algebra. Like how to reduce to reduced row echelon form and such. < 1260020044 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, i guess i mean you should study general linear algebra :P < 1260020052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ah < 1260020075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I also know some set theory. What I'm missing out on here is the vector stuff. < 1260020107 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is linear algebra too, matrices and vectors are close friends < 1260020168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, yeah I said basic. There is some module later on covering it iirc. < 1260020174 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing "matrices actually are" is a kind of "implementation" of linear maps, that is, mappings between two vector spaces that preserve structure < 1260020185 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget linear algebra < 1260020192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, why on earth? < 1260020214 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just solving simultaneous equations of the form ax + by + cz = d < 1260020218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's useful. For practical applications < 1260020225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260020226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ~ < 1260020227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why forget it < 1260020232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, yes and? < 1260020235 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's a theory of that < 1260020247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so */~i. — multiplication table < 1260020259 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the theories everyone should understand < 1260020271 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need any linear algebra to solve these equations < 1260020280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260020284 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna go now -> < 1260020337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, well I guess there are/could be other ways. It still seems like an easy and useful way for solving large equation systems. < 1260020386 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: did you know a lot of modern coding theory also relies on linear algebra? while it's a theory of linear equations, it has applications outside them. < 1260020410 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok no < 1260020416 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean linear algebra is what gives says if we have a linear code, we can find a basis for our code, and we have a unique dimension < 1260020438 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the orthogonal complement space of C is of dimension n-dim(C) < 1260020464 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is all stuff that doesn't have to be proven separately, because linear algebra gives us an understanding of general vector spaces < 1260020472 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no". < 1260020497 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, i guess i was wrong. < 1260020497 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1260020509 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I said forget linear algebra I meant, for the duration of solving lights out < 1260020663 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. then i agree in this case you could just think of it as solving equations. < 1260020681 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes so don't jump to conclusions to ridicule me please < 1260020686 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for getting solutions < 1260020705 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, and also seeing if they exist in practical situations < 1260020716 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are such a fucking moron I am leaving rather than waste time listening to your bullshit" < 1260020769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: you're way too sensitive < 1260020776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not everything's a war against you < 1260020777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grow up < 1260020777 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i said that, then realized that was rude, and explained myself < 1260020792 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly i said that because i was leaving < 1260020817 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to do a thing < 1260020819 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: it really did sound like you were saying linear algebra is useless. < 1260020835 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok how much of a stupid dickhead do you think I am? seriously < 1260020851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are such a fucking moron I am leaving rather than waste time listening to your bullshit" is amusing with him previously saying he left because of me < 1260020861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you are such a fucking dick I am leaving rather than waste time listening to your bullshit" < 1260020876 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: you could think it's not something people should learn as the first things in mathematics without being a stupid dickhead, imo < 1260020883 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would just loudly disagree, as i did. < 1260020934 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, w/e, again :P < 1260020935 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1260021221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, oklofok always had problems leaving when he had to. Don't take it personally < 1260021233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he usually shows up several times again before actually leaving for real < 1260021236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/had/has/g < 1260021236 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster I guess you missed what happened earlire < 1260021243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: quantumEd has a persecution complex. < 1260021249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, probably. I don't generally read scrollback < 1260021254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "persecution"? < 1260021261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rtfd(ictionary) < 1260021282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an irrational and obsessive feeling or fear that one is the object of collective hostility or ill-treatment on the part of others. < 1260021294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoth whatever os x's dictionary is < 1260021313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 2. The feeling you easily get around ehird < 1260021315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1260021340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're prone to taking criticisms personally when they were not so, yes. < 1260021349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ... That was a joke dujh < 1260021350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh* < 1260021355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1260021363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't seem so. meh < 1260021383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if fortran has any cool ideas < 1260021394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, define cool < 1260021404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1260021417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay, hard to define that precisely < 1260021431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1260021447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I know next to nothing about fortran < 1260021461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still find it hard to believe how short oberon-2's report is compared to r5rs... < 1260021462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been cooling for 50 years, should be practically freezing < 1260021481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah I remember one thing. at least gcc's fortran compiler stores multi-dimensional arrays in the opposite order of gcc's C compiler < 1260021493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in a C array like int myarray[200][100]; < 1260021512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end of fortran knowledge < 1260021537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "meh" < 1260021537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ary[x][y] = ary[(x*width)+y] is intuitive and obvious, I'd say < 1260021546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he was joking < 1260021550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes < 1260021564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but I found the joke rather mediocre < 1260021598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not up to his usual punerific strength < 1260021601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ary[x][y][z] = ary[(((x*width)+y)*depth)+z] < 1260021605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if that can be simplified < 1260021626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway the thing is gcc stores it in one order and gfortran in the opposite one < 1260021629 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260021634 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATLAB matrices are also in column-major order in memory, at least usually. < 1260021639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc fortran was columns first, but gcc was row first < 1260021643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1260021647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260021658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in int foo[42][34]; is sizeof foo == 42*sizeof int? < 1260021664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it 42*34*sizeof int < 1260021677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter. < 1260021685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1260021686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err how could the former one happen? < 1260021698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you could do sizeof foo / sizeof foo[0] < 1260021704 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260021718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1260021739 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260021844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260021859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had < 1260021860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nested: A[X][Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y] < 1260021861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | {A[X]:nested}[Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y] < 1260021863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the latter one < 1260021870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sizeofs < 1260021876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to know how nested it is previously < 1260021880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1260021884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use the generic pointer rule :P < 1260021980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: width, depth, ? < 1260021983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 4-dimensions < 1260021984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas? < 1260021985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sizeof is always bytes < 1260021994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, yes, it was just an example :P < 1260021996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? < 1260022003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm whatt < 1260022017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 4 dimensions? < 1260022017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you asked me something < 1260022017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what < 1260022019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260022021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :width = 2d < 1260022023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depth = 3d < 1260022024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? = 4d < 1260022024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260022032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the name matter? < 1260022037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1260022039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll call it fourd < 1260022045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the variables x,y,z,x4 < 1260022051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, better name: fnourd < 1260022060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, mathematica has found a simpler form for me < 1260022112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, not it hasn't < 1260022119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has found one with less nesting! < 1260022137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a[x][y][z] = (depth*width*x) + (depth*y) + z < 1260022138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what is the current mathematica version < 1260022148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has decided to get it < 1260022157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a[x][y][z][x4] = (depth*fourd*width*x*x4) + (depth*fourd*x4*y) + (fourd*x4*z) < 1260022161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc that's kinda obvious < 1260022164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what; legally?! < 1260022171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope your name is moneybags < 1260022177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait then you'd be able to look it up < 1260022200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, lets not go into details < 1260022200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about legality < 1260022200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clearly illegally < 1260022200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.0.1 < 1260022206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have 7.0.0 < 1260022224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suffice to say I'm always a law abiding person and this is a public place and freenode doesn't use ssl, and why trust freenode anwyay. < 1260022234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you'll need a key generator, and it'll only run on windows, just so you know... just in case... not that i'm implying anything... < 1260022254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have MSDNAA and I have virtualbox. What else does one need? < 1260022259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a vm might be good... because they're not too trustable... this is for PUBLIC INFORMATION ONLY < 1260022265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260022274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I did that I would rollback of course < 1260022279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I would ever do such a thing < 1260022311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're epileptic the demoscene light show included might be bad... JUST SAYING < 1260022324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, I think that was relatively inconspicuous < 1260022325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cough < 1260022326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything important new in 7.0.1 compared to 7.0.0? < 1260022327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just call me ford prefect < 1260022330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably not. < 1260022340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a bugfix release < 1260022361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mathematica is buggy enough that it hardly matters :D < 1260022378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have of course not seen such demoscene light shows before, but I do happen to know exactly what you mean. Very strange this knowledge just dumped straight into my brain somehow. < 1260022391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly all minds are the same. < 1260022399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I read that as "fnord prefect" first XD < 1260022400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have the ability to break down the barriers between them. < 1260022415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, you can't edit mathematica notebooks (programs) outside of mathematica, just so you kknow < 1260022417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*know < 1260022423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're rich text < 1260022423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, okay < 1260022432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they're not really programs per se < 1260022448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're definitions, lines of code that haven't been rune, lines of code with their output (which can be interactive) below, and formatted text to explain it < 1260022470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and it automatically indents, add spacing and wraps lines for you. working against it is painful, I suggest never typing whitespace < 1260022479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can view them with that viewer thing that everyone of course has installed. < 1260022490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, the default 3d output is fugly because it doesn't antialiase < 1260022500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the options, it's appearance→graphics→drag to the highest setting. barely any performance hit. < 1260022501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome < 1260022544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, purely hypothetical: to what degree should one trust the actual pirated program in question if the keygen can't be trusted? < 1260022563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Entirely. < 1260022569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keygens aren't cracks, they don't hack the program. < 1260022584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just reverse-engineered the key mechanism, and made a program that generates valid ones. < 1260022590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, even if the keygen is included in the same purely hypothetical torrent? < 1260022602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It was not compiled by the keygen authors. < 1260022612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The warez community... isn't too fond of bittorrent. < 1260022615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, says "EDGE"? hm < 1260022620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why not? < 1260022623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither is the piracy community. < 1260022632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tradition, security, privacy. < 1260022636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exclusivity < 1260022659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, what do you suggest, a 600 part yencoded usenet thread? < 1260022659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260022669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something around that. Probably more parts < 1260022691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use protected FTP servers. < 1260022696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260022714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To get in to one, you have to have first made a certain number of releases yourself and stuff. < 1260022734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a tier of most-exclusive-earliest-releases-fastest-connections down to the public sites. < 1260022759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There're bots that distribute it all downwards. There's a race between scene groups to complete a distribution of a new release before anyone else, and the group that manages it wins that release. < 1260022760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so then who uses torrents? < 1260022764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all vague and I've probably made some errors. < 1260022770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use* < 1260022781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: FTP might filter down to Usenet or whatever, or straight from the public site. < 1260022801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it just circulates around P2P and shit, and someone makes a torrent at some point. < 1260022814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260022827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what sort of P2P? < 1260022837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-torrent p2p I assume < 1260022837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like gnutella and stuff, I guess < 1260022841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260022852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fuzzy as to the path from scene-approved to torrents < 1260022887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, maybe ed2k is involved somewhere < 1260022893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course, since all this is just hypothetical knowledge or something < 1260022896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed2k? < 1260022900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDonkey_network < 1260022914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ed2k://long hash links < 1260022927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i've ever seen one. < 1260022933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw mathematica uses qt for gui < 1260022949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can technically use at the command line, but most of mathematica's fun is from the interactive/graphical stuff < 1260022957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen such a link either. Not even hypothetically < 1260023013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does it include *.deb? < 1260023023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a binary, I believe. < 1260023025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus supporting files. < 1260023034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or an installer. < 1260023037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/InstallingMathematicaOnUnixAndLinux.html < 1260023040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I mean, is it a installer.sh thing that spews all over the file system or not < 1260023049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an installer. < 1260023055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1260023055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5. The installer prompts you to specify the directory in which Mathematica should be installed. The default location is /usr/local/Wolfram/Mathematica/7.0. Press Enter to accept the default, or type in a new location and then press Enter. < 1260023059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But no file system spew. < 1260023065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suggest /opt/mathematica. < 1260023070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if you have no /opt, /usr/lib/mathematica. < 1260023078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7. You are asked for the location in which to copy the executable scripts. You should choose a directory that is present on each user's PATH. The scripts are also installed in the Executables subdirectory of the Mathematica installation directory. Type a location or accept the default and press Enter. < 1260023080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah and do it as normal user < 1260023084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd choose $prefix/bin. < 1260023103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That'll fuck up the ownership of the resulting files. < 1260023104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in create directory and chown it to said user, then install mathematica as it < 1260023105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly doubt Wolfram have created a malicious piece of software. < 1260023135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only touches the Mathematica prefix and the executable prefix, it seems. < 1260023137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 1) binary installer 2) hypothetical non-trusted source < 1260023142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it says it requires root. < 1260023146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also you said it was buggy < 1260023148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and binary? < 1260023150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's shell, I believe < 1260023153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mathematica itseelf < 1260023153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1260023154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*itself < 1260023158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's mostly crashes and stuff < 1260023169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithmic errors that is < 1260023173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that make it crash < 1260023181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260023188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why so badly coded one wonders < 1260023188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never crashed mathematica < 1260023190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 has though < 1260023200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ais523 is quite pathological < 1260023213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the main thing you'll notice with mathematica is that if you compose a few primitives, it's really fast < 1260023219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then if you write some code that isn't glue, it takes years < 1260023230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bipolar performance < 1260023234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this is hypothetically strange: getting higher download speed than what your connection limit is. < 1260023238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manic-depressive language < 1260023250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what connection speed, what download speed? < 1260023257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer with proper units, please < 1260023268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. b=bit, B=byte, K=1000, Ki=1024 < 1260023273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I won't be able to see what you got wrong :-D < 1260023280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your connection is 9 Mb, right? < 1260023283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 megabits = 9,000 bits < 1260023286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "8 megabit down" (ISP's wording), 2 megabit (1024 based) actual download < 1260023286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1260023287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 < 1260023295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1024 x bit? < 1260023299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you mean 2 megabyte < 1260023306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megabit is never 1024 based < 1260023308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always 1000 < 1260023308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah byte < 1260023309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo < 1260023325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, to translate into the formal units required for actually diagnosing the problem < 1260023336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I should get something around 1000 kilobyte per second max < 1260023336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISP says 8 Mb/s = 8 megabits per second < 1260023341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting around twice < 1260023361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practise I tend to get 800 kbyte/s (unknown if it is 1000 or 1024) most time < 1260023364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You tend to get 2 MiB/s = 16 Mb/s < 1260023365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just this time... < 1260023369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 16 megabits per second < 1260023369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, indeed < 1260023371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait, what? < 1260023375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think google fucked up that conversion < 1260023382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, *8 < 1260023393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you went from bits to byte < 1260023393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I can't trust google to have the correct units < 1260023395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it did < 1260023408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the maths is easy, just do it yourself < 1260023410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to write a program that actually converts them properly < 1260023418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not when you get to Mi < 1260023435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just unravel it down to bytes/bits < 1260023437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries writing it in perl, for no reason < 1260023445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, interesting choice < 1260023479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilobytes to petabytes should do methinks < 1260023488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, decabytes! < 1260023498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just because) < 1260023621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.4 MB/s over lan? < 1260023626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's poor < 1260023640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for ssh < 1260023652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is gbit ethernet < 1260023658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it isn't < 1260023663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only part of the way < 1260023664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260023751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat, perl's foreach doesn't let you get the indices too? < 1260023755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be a way < 1260023808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL, http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/ shows the thiing for index < 1260023809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess why < 1260023827 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-118-39.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260023841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why on earth /opt/plan9 is owned by the non-existent user 1002 < 1260023857 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260023970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1260023977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :automating -i is hard because it's just "nearest power" < 1260024001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it, always? < 1260024002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure < 1260024071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260024186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260024193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm case-insensitive in the first letter of the prefix, but not the rest < 1260024203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kiB = KiB < 1260024205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1260024209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kib != kiB < 1260024225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is KIB == kiB? < 1260024231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I is a syntax error. < 1260024235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh < 1260024240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that the thing for kibibytes, officially, is kiB < 1260024242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logically it's KiB < 1260024243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1260024337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260024340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess uppercase I will work < 1260024342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for my laziness < 1260024459 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260024567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1260024570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to use bignums < 1260024573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i work in bits < 1260024581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the smallest unit is b = 1 bit < 1260024596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 petabyte is a loooot of bits < 1260024608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, easy enough < 1260024610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just < 1260024611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use bignum; < 1260024614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no other code changes required < 1260024623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AnMaster will hate that, it's magic) < 1260024675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I'm indifferent to this information < 1260024684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1260024685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? Becuase I already hate perl. < 1260024692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this changes nothing < 1260024717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hate is a strong word < 1260024847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the hypothetical keygen seems to have instructions in, uh, spanish? < 1260024856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just run the exe < 1260024868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put AnMaster or your real name in every field it wants (prolly name, organisation) < 1260024871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hit the button < 1260024880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should give a serial key and some other ID thing < 1260024881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why my real name or such < 1260024886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use made up ones normally < 1260024889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it's what mathematica will put as your license information < 1260024897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need for such paranoia, it's an in-program key checker < 1260024897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mhm < 1260024915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah my real name is N/A < 1260024917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice name < 1260024933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norlander/Arvid < 1260024934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed it is. < 1260025025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hah < 1260025056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1260025075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun, own category in the program menu < 1260025081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said it didn't clobber stuff iirc? < 1260025083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1260025127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top causes for wakeups: < 1260025127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 32,7% (9725,4) MathKernel : schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup) < 1260025127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 32,7% (9712,2) Mathematica : schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup) < 1260025127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 32,5% (9655,4) java : schedule_hrtimeout_range (hrtimer_wakeup) < 1260025129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1260025131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1260025150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1260025160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't know it clobbered the menus. < 1260025163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1260025164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it causes noise from my laptop < 1260025166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No big shakes, it's just one file. < 1260025170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Even idling? < 1260025171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those wakeups < 1260025173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes < 1260025184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open the options < 1260025186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :high pitched C4 mwait/C0 switches < 1260025198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, then? < 1260025206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at the Parallel tab. < 1260025212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it < 1260025213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what < 1260025215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be launching kernels when needed < 1260025219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic (number of cores) < 1260025225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set to that < 1260025228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is run kernels at a lower process priority set? < 1260025231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, set it < 1260025248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also set < 1260025255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still this noise is annoying. argh < 1260025295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shrug < 1260025299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll have to deal with it < 1260025333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this is "worse than CRT" noise. < 1260025343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wakeups-from-idle per second : 10379,7 interval: 10,0s < 1260025343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1260025347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite a lot < 1260025354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deal with it. < 1260025354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usual is around 20-40 < 1260025372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or try setting there to be only one kernel. < 1260025383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And set it to launch parallel kernels at startup, then restart. < 1260025454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't help either < 1260025456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260025537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why java though hm < 1260025550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some part of it is Java. < 1260025568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would reset those settings you changed, btw. < 1260025570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icedtea is buggy IME. Maybe that is why < 1260025580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try the open-source Sun JDK. < 1260025607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica has received the signal: SIGSEGV and has exited. < 1260025611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what I did < 1260025621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :launch it and quit it I think < 1260025651 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260025665 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260025712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Even more magic than "use bignum" < 1260025713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use integer; < 1260025717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now all divisions are integer division. < 1260025721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, this is usually used in a block: < 1260025722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1260025723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260025724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : use integer; < 1260025726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : calculations; < 1260025726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1260025745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, in fact, I think it has to be in a block. < 1260025761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, no. < 1260025824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, program, 8 KiB = 64 Kb, not 65.536. < 1260025831 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260025837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is there a way to tell apt-get that "no even if this is a recommends, I don't want this package" < 1260025845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, no, wait, my Perl program is right. < 1260025846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"error out rather than try to install this" < 1260025856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's a --dont-install-recommends-fuck-you < 1260025875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260025897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still I was considering a specific one I want to ban forever to the deepest circles of hell < 1260025919 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260025957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but --no-install-recommends works I guess < 1260026011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the "recommends" means "if you want that, you almost certainly want this too unless you're doing something really weird" < 1260026066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I disagree in this case < 1260026084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what case is it? < 1260026098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :avahi-daemon and sun-java6-jdk (indirect dep) < 1260026105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want the former < 1260026119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how do you switch implementation for alternatives? < 1260026136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, I want to switch from openjdk to sun's jdk < 1260026148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a command for it, but I can never remember what it is < 1260026150 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1260026166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1260026169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, sudo update-alternatives < 1260026182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably best to read the man page before using it < 1260026214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sudo update-alternatives --config java" is the normal method of using it < 1260026217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tldr but I have to get something sugar rich, should be able to handle it then < 1260026239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you write the name of the binary in question, which is probably going to be "java" here < 1260026267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it didn't help < 1260026271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with the original issue) < 1260026273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1260026464 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1260026486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :openjdk is sun's < 1260026488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah there seems to be many reports on this < 1260026493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want the closed one < 1260026494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :googling on mathematica 7 linux powertop < 1260026526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well the openjdk was the buggy one, that was causing grief in another context recently < 1260026531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icedtea was as bad < 1260026537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the closed one being less buggy < 1260026545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugs have been filed < 1260026561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not by me, but by the author of that java application) < 1260026605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, http://groups.google.com/group/comp.soft-sys.math.mathematica/browse_thread/thread/861d1ad03b19d949 < 1260026628 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yey bugs < 1260026657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, same behaviour as I'm seeing < 1260026681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenJDK had some really strange bugs in the AWT/Swing image-processing parts; though those have long since been fixed. (It was just that only some of the university boxen were new enough to have fixed versions.) < 1260026709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm the issue was in awt stuff iirc < 1260026712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Try the 32-bit version? < 1260026714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe swing < 1260026719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, same cd? < 1260026724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1260026726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not. < 1260026726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260026732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram are anal with their licenses. < 1260026748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes same cd < 1260026787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, I need this thing called sleep. So yeah will try in 32-bit chroot tomorrow < 1260026806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just press the sleep button! < 1260026847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 4PiB Pb < 1260026847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :26.8435456 Pb < 1260026862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 pebibytes is ~26.84 petabits. < 1260026865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more you know! < 1260026872 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260026877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb fungot < 1260026878 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: along with nick, for a marker, not an expression?)) fnord < 1260026880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know you'd left < 1260026883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1260026883 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1260026908 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260026922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really should put fungot under some auto-restart service supervisor one of these days. < 1260026922 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: or the specification has changed, maybe it will be < 1260026943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1024PiB b < 1260026944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :68719476736 b < 1260026944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, uh, no. < 1260026964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wrong indeed < 1260026991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if < 1260026991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:27] ehird: $ ./sconvert 4PiB Pb < 1260026992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:27] ehird: 26.8435456 Pb < 1260026992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was incorrect too. < 1260027002 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure when he left either. The wlan box did reset when I added an entry to the MAC filter list, but that shouldn't affect him. < 1260027010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does it work for MiB to MB? < 1260027027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mebibytes to megabytes, or to megabits? < 1260027040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the former < 1260027040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that < 1260027057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1024MiB MB < 1260027057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :838.8608 MB < 1260027062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're known to use inconsistent units < 1260027066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nnno < 1260027069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's wrong < 1260027070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the above is wrong, yeah. < 1260027072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very wrong < 1260027089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, OH < 1260027094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My prefixes are— hm, no. < 1260027095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... < 1260027096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1260027096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you had it backwards right? < 1260027108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print expr_value($ARGV[0])/unit_value($ARGV[1]), " $ARGV[1]\n"; < 1260027115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try 1 MiB to MB < 1260027127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unit_value('kB') → 8000 < 1260027136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expr_value('3 kb') → 3000 < 1260027137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully. < 1260027144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260027146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1MiB MB < 1260027147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.8192 MB < 1260027149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try simple ones < 1260027149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks right. < 1260027165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Remember that the intermediate values are bits. < 1260027171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not bytes. < 1260027176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well try it for just bits then < 1260027193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1Kib Kb < 1260027193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.024 Kb < 1260027202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems about right? < 1260027207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, that's right. < 1260027216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1KiB KB < 1260027217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.024 KB < 1260027218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. < 1260027224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1KiB Kb < 1260027224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8.192 Kb < 1260027224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that. < 1260027226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but the MiB -> MB one was wrong < 1260027231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1260027244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure but < 1260027247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let's see. < 1260027254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too tired to work it out < 1260027285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 MiB = 1.048576 MB, I believe. < 1260027295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1MiB MB < 1260027296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.8192 MB < 1260027296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I think that's wr— oh, perhaps— < 1260027316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be more than one MB at least < 1260027321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure about that < 1260027332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? Hm. < 1260027353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should it? < 1260027361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused now. < 1260027371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print unit_value('MiB')/8,"\n"; < 1260027371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ 8192 < 1260027372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an 80 GB disk fits around 74 GiB iirc < 1260027382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Division by 8 should convert bits to bytes. < 1260027387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... < 1260027398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my @ids = split //, 'kmgtp'; < 1260027399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foreach (0..4) { < 1260027399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $pow10 = 10**($_+3); < 1260027399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $prefixes{$ids[$_]} = $pow10; < 1260027399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $prefixes{$ids[$_].'i'} = 2**int((log($pow10)/log(2))+.5); < 1260027400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1260027404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try 80 GB to GiB < 1260027408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my error is in the i line. < 1260027413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I remember what that should be < 1260027422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's calculating the nearest power of two. Maybe that's incorrect. < 1260027427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roghly < 1260027455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My prefixes are definitely wrong. < 1260027481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, known test case from segate disk: 80 GB is around 74 GiB < 1260027506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :61.03515625 here. My prefixes hash must be in error; let me dump it. < 1260027522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, 61 is nowhere near 74 < 1260027540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "$_\t$prefixes{$_}\n" foreach (keys %prefixes); < 1260027551 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want fixed powers of two, not upwards-rounded ones. < 1260027571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/729686.txt?key=dqx6u1u7v0u9wipsfhg < 1260027575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Unverbosify? < 1260027598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^10 for ki, 2^20 for Mi and so on. < 1260027611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Today I finally tried an 2.6.27 kernel and the problem disappeared. So it seems that Mathematica has a problem with kernels newer than 2.6.27 and that this problem is not Ubuntu specific." < 1260027612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1260027645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, so it's just 2^(i*10)? < 1260027664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1260027665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the right i, yes. < 1260027667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i+1)*10 < 1260027675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1260027678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: k:0,m:1,g:2,t:3,p:4 < 1260027686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I'm stupid :) < 1260027717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 80GB GiB < 1260027717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.007450580596923828125 GiB < 1260027717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1260027723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I suspect you of incorrectosity! < 1260027738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my @ids = split //, 'kmgtp'; < 1260027738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foreach (0..4) { < 1260027738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $prefixes{$ids[$_]} = 10**($_+3); < 1260027738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $prefixes{$ids[$_].'i'} = 2**(($_+1)*10); < 1260027739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1260027740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's some false marketing if I ever seen it < 1260027742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1260027747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: :-D < 1260027765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but srsly, it's not a drive company conspiracy, people who say that are dumb) < 1260027770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a factor-of-1000 error if I saw right. < 1260027780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but jokishly: I know that < 1260027790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking < 1260027794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loads of people really think it's false marketing < 1260027804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course the real conspiracy is SI using 1000 not 1024 < 1260027805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to begin with < 1260027807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Indeed, but I don't see why in my code. < 1260027819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IMPERIAL SYSTEM UBER ALLES < 1260027824 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it weird that SI prefixes do not correspond to SI values? < 1260027824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PINTS AND YARDS AND MILES < 1260027826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DECIMAL MUST DIE < 1260027829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do correspond < 1260027849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k = 1000x... deciding it ought to be 1024x just because it's more convenient is rather dumb < 1260027857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US, both the time and the measurements are non-decimal, but they use them both in decimal. < 1260027861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's crazy! < 1260027863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, *woosh* < 1260027870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Indeed. Even in a REAL binary system, 1024 wouldn't be special. < 1260027873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is that how it feels to say it < 1260027876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We only use 1024 because it's close to 1000. < 1260027878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's whoosh. < 1260027879 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260027884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1260027888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woosh is a girly wind. WHOOSH is MEATY! < 1260027896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, whaash? < 1260027904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather wet I fear < 1260027906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wharsh yarsherlf. < 1260027917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what dialect? < 1260027918 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's a lowercase k; people seem to get this wrong :/ < 1260027922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know either; do dump that %prefixes hash, since the init should be right now. < 1260027965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah, but know the crazy thing? < 1260027970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard for the -i suffixes says that it's Ki-. < 1260027972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it's k-. < 1260027979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT IS INCONSISTENT AND STUPID ;_; < 1260027979 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I'll just start measuring everything in dab, just to confuse people. < 1260028015 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mb < 1260028015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dab? < 1260028015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. You want 10**(($_+1)*3) there too. < 1260028015 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: decabits < 1260028015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mb. That's less than one bit. < 1260028016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW DOES THAT EVEN— < 1260028021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURKEY BOMB < 1260028021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there are patches from wolfram it seems < 1260028022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1260028026 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: to confuse people who think I'm talking about Mb < 1260028029 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even MB < 1260028036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They think you'll mean MiB, probably. < 1260028042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html < 1260028047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one GB == 8,000,000,000,000 mb < 1260028047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Two thirds of a bit plus half a trit." < 1260028058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am going to start measuring in BI_ITs. < 1260028059 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's 10**3, 10**4, ... and so on, which is not very right. < 1260028087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Err, are you sure? < 1260028090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. < 1260028092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are. < 1260028125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 80GB GiB < 1260028125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :74.50580596923828125 GiB < 1260028125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the jut of your KiB! < 1260028131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rimshot* < 1260028156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be legal to combine units. < 1260028160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G = KK! < 1260028165 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1260028166 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1260028170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES :| < 1260028178 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G = MK or KM or KKK < 1260028191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KKK! < 1260028191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, right, I meant M. < 1260028196 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Mk or kM or kkk < 1260028220 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... other fun things to measure in: YB < 1260028224 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260028231 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOO < 1260028237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yotta comes after peta, right? < 1260028246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably make my calculator anal so that you have to use the correct capitalisation. < 1260028251 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after, meaning smaller? < 1260028256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to make sure k's binary form becomes Ki. < 1260028266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: although, do you think I should accept ki too? Because Ki is really fucking stupid. < 1260028280 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260028291 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think prefixes are stupid < 1260028293 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Double prefixes such as those formerly used in micromicrofarads (picofarads), hectokilometres (100 kilometres), and millimicrons or micromillimetres (both nanometres) were also dropped with the introduction of the SI." < 1260028294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Ki makes sense in that it's used for consistency with other 'i' forms; I wouldn't really care either way < 1260028305 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't people just write 1000000000000000? < 1260028313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's kMGTPEZY < 1260028319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: obvious ereasons. < 1260028321 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260028330 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k is the highest lowercase prefix < 1260028338 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "micromicrofarad" one is a link too. < 1260028342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but k makes sense with consistency for... most other >0 prefixes :-) < 1260028350 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should just have made all prefixes >1x capital < 1260028356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would avoid "da" as well < 1260028359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make it support both ki and Ki < 1260028365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one is rational and the second one is standard < 1260028371 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it complain if you enter KB or Kb < 1260028371 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: and kI < 1260028380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes < 1260028384 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: for the stupids < 1260028398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: no. < 1260028448 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with ehird < 1260028458 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A micro-microfarad (ĂŽÂĽĂŽÂĽF) that can be found in older texts is the equivalent of a picofarad." (That probably has a broken mu sign, haven't fixed the locale just right.) < 1260028477 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if it sees "iB", it should complain that Hungarion notation sucks < 1260028493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, program made anal. < 1260028498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: wat? < 1260028511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's hungarian < 1260028516 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, typo < 1260028522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1KiB kB < 1260028522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.024 kB < 1260028534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./sconvert 1KiB KB < 1260028534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inf KB < 1260028540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260028546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably handle that < 1260028554 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you mean ÎĽÎĽF? < 1260028561 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should make it do other units two :D < 1260028570 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or µµF? < 1260028599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But it's mainly for byte/bit, binary/decimal confusion. < 1260028618 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curse you, Unix < 1260028624 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, curse my atrocious word choice there < 1260028627 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should have been "too" < 1260028629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unix? Why? < 1260028635 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260028650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: units(1) is there for the rest < 1260028678 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260028692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "A micro-microfarad (ĂŽÂĽĂŽÂĽF) that can be found in older texts is the equivalent of a picofarad." (That probably has a broken mu sign, haven't fixed the locale just right.) < 1260028696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoding failure? < 1260028704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you meant µ < 1260028705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1260028711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :µµ maybe < 1260028712 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ůŋıçøðë Ĺōχ < 1260028722 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1260028733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo "3$(units kg grams | tail -1)" | bc < 1260028734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3000 < 1260028748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be pretty clear from the () part what was meant. < 1260028766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleepity now, night. < 1260028785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use of uninitialized value in multiplication (*) at ./sconvert line 38. < 1260028786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use of uninitialized value in split at ./sconvert line 27. < 1260028786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use of uninitialized value in hash element at ./sconvert line 28. < 1260028794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEEEEEEEEERL :| < 1260028830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, use strict; use warnings; use whatever-the-thing-that-makes-you-have-to-pass-stuff-through-a-regex-to-make-it-trusted;? < 1260028843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing to do with that. < 1260028851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivial bug, now fixed. < 1260028884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1260028886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, now it says bad input for everything :-D < 1260028899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you should have used python instead < 1260028903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah. < 1260028907 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tainted mode? < 1260028907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to code this in C out of curiosity, see how much bigger it is. < 1260028909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, bignums. < 1260028912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, possibly < 1260028913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gmp. < 1260028914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shiver. < 1260028916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1260028919 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1260028920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why not :D < 1260028926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll just use longs for the C version. :P < 1260028933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, long long < 1260028936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it'll be able to handle yottabytes, but. < 1260028937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1260028943 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: why not? < 1260028954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why not? you get 32 bits on 32-bit x86 then < 1260029028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or use gmp < 1260029036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get 32-bits with long too... < 1260029044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh? < 1260029048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I said < 1260029074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32-bit x86 sizeof: int=4, long=4, long long=8 < 1260029079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64-bit x86 sizeof: int=4, long=8, long long=8 < 1260029082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1260029098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1260029101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use __int128_t if __GNUC__ < 1260029102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care. < 1260029102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260029112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it _int128_t? < 1260029116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well something like that < 1260029133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still why not long long? < 1260029162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because long is more widely supported and grokkable. < 1260029162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long long long obv < 1260029165 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only decent error message in all of GCC < 1260029173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh? < 1260029184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, stdint.h: int64_t? < 1260029188 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Error: 'long long long' is too long for GCC" < 1260029193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, :D < 1260029239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now of the opinion that C compilers should offer a bigint type. < 1260029287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1260029316 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the standard allows that :/ < 1260029335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh? as a pointer type surely? < 1260029358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not as a simple type obviously < 1260029361 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, of course, but then all the regular operations would need functions :/ < 1260029369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long < 1260029369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefixes[sizeof PREFIX_NAMES][2]; < 1260029373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, or would they? < 1260029380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefixes['M']['i'] < 1260029383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefixes['M']['\0'] < 1260029384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evil? Yes. < 1260029387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool? Yes. < 1260029392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I suppose an implementation could make a type implemented internally as a pointer < 1260029405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it needs to be that sizeof + 1. < 1260029408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Ki. < 1260029435 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the amount of work that would require is probably not worth it < 1260029601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I've written prefix_value and unit_value in C. < 1260029607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty good so far. < 1260029692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to use unsigned long, but I need to use -1 as an error code. < 1260029699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you, C. Fuck you and your lack of convenient error handling. < 1260029765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'd say that lack of convenient error handling is C's #1 flaw. < 1260029779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it just had a convenient tuple type ... it's just the same as a struct... < 1260029822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(T1, T2+) is a type the same as struct {T1 _1; T2 _2; ...}. If you write "(a, b+) = tuple;", it extracts the values. If you use _ as a name, the value is discarded. < 1260029824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :End of. < 1260029831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila, now your erroring functions look like: < 1260029848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(long, int) < 1260029849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might_fail(void) < 1260029852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you use them like: < 1260029859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foolhardy, _) = might_fail(); < 1260029859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1260029863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(safe, err) = might_fail(); < 1260029868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that really so difficult?! < 1260029920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it looks convenient, so no < 1260029924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260029926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260029931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1260029949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do it a bit with cpp, I think. < 1260029966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, tuples. Not triples and beyond. < 1260029971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without defining a separate macro. < 1260029979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, and with gcc's typeof. < 1260030030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define tuple(x, y) ((struct{typeof(x) a; typeof(y) b;}){(x),(y)}) < 1260030085 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extract requires a temporary variable, though. < 1260030139 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260030323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone worked on an implementation of TURKEY BOMB apart from ais523? Didn't think so. < 1260030359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently ais523 came up with a turing-complete interpretation of the spec. < 1260030426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1260030439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why O_o? < 1260030445 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260030453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html is what I'm referring to. < 1260030462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[AMICED < 1260030462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A conceptual quantum state of information. < 1260030462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Negative six sevenths of a decimal digit.]] < 1260030464 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a tricky one < 1260030470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais had a NEGATIVE_AMICED type instead < 1260030475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and negated all operations on it < 1260030508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUDDING is also a tricky one, I'd do void *PUDDING = 0; < 1260030512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the size should be infinite < 1260030518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all of the memory is close to infinite as it gets < 1260030525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as an unknowable value goes, just don't let the program at it < 1260030551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and HYBRID OBTAINED BY COMBINING without WITH GUSTO has to be the average of the sizes of the two types. < 1260030562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck figuring out which fields to include. < 1260030590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURKEY BOMB itself should just be a pointer to TURKEY BOMB. < 1260030624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to be ultra-spec-compliant: < 1260030664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct TURKEY_BOMB { < 1260030664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct TURKEY_BOMB *referent; < 1260030664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} TURKEY_BOMB; < 1260030664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1260030665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURKEY_BOMB.referent = &TURKEY_BOMB; < 1260030712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once you've got all the types, you have to infer the language itself from the paradigm and the operators. < 1260030723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, well, try and figure out things like: < 1260030725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[BI_IT BI_IT ? BI_IT BI_IT ? BI_IT BI_IT < 1260030725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3-argument trit operation; unfortunately the Ancient Texts seem unclear on what it actually does. (The closest English translation appears to be "take these trits three and meditate soundly upon them.")]] < 1260030767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Attempts to deduce the existance of a HUMIDOR in the given PUDDING.]] < 1260030768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering that PUDDING has an unknowable value... but if we assume it's all of memory, it just works out whether any HUMIDORs exist. < 1260030774 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260030785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ALL BUT EXPR < 1260030785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a PUDDING indicating everything but EXPR.]] < 1260030785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just keep a list of things not included in PUDDING. < 1260030802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[WHEREFORE ART EXPR < 1260030803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a PUDDING indicating the entire metaphysical nature of EXPR.]] < 1260030803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps a pointer to the internal representation of the value. < 1260030816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[GARNISH PUDDING < 1260030817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convolutes the PUDDING with recent context drawn from the program. The player holding the TURKEY BOMB must pass it off.]] < 1260030817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a fucking clue. < 1260030835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[IMAGINE PUDDING, PUDDING! < 1260030836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a NOMENCLATURE indicating all the variables unchanged between two PUDDINGs.]] < 1260030836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, a properly-specified operation." < 1260030845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Perform iterative cypher transformation of set of names." is kinda vague. < 1260030866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody be interested! < 1260030996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Stop being all O_o! < 1260031176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A BI_IT is (2/3)+(log(3)/log(2)/2) bits... < 1260031183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~= 1.46 bits. < 1260031233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := log(432)/log(64) < 1260031326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A composite quantum state of information." < 1260031345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess the thing to do is to store the 2/3rds of a bit as one byte, and the half a trit as one byte too. < 1260031486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives the struct members one-character names as otherwise they'd be really long < 1260031515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh great, I have to have type tags too. < 1260031555 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260031799 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260031859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tagHYBRID_OBTAINED_BY_COMBINING < 1260031929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Exactly fifteen bytes, no exceptions." < 1260031930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great, so you need 5-byte pointers. < 1260031983 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just change the size of a byte < 1260031990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1260031996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what I'll do is < 1260031999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one byte is 8/15ths of a bit < 1260032005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :char p1,p2,p3,p4,p5; < 1260032021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lower/upper/whatever bits of each are a few bits of the pointer. < 1260032030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just pad it out, but it doesn't say pad anywhere. < 1260032045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The type is "TRIVIA CONCERNING type", "Three references: one to an object of the named type, two to TRIVIA objects.") < 1260032080 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260032112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. < 1260032113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"two to TRIVIA objects" < 1260032123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that means two TRIVIA CONCERNING objects, or two TRIVIA objects. < 1260032138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems pretty clear to me < 1260032151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Excuse me, have you read http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html? < 1260032155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing in there is clear. < 1260032179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("A fraction whose numerator is a perfect square of a perfect square and whose denominator is a prime number whose ordinal position in the counting list of prime numbers is also prime.") < 1260032231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG! Haskell 2010 removed n+k patterns! < 1260032232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1260032368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the worst part of turkey bomb is that since it translates some stuff about the drinking game into computer terms, you have to take note of the drinking game-related items in your implementation < 1260033160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, coppro, seen http://killersmurf.blogspot.com/2009/11/typefuck.html? < 1260033169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc you like type/template-hacks + haskell < 1260033663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bit-player.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grid15r0a.png < 1260033665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty < 1260034431 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260035567 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260035585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi augur. < 1260035603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird < 1260035605 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup? < 1260035771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sky! < 1260035787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(page in `{find . | grep -v '^\./jsMath' | grep '\.html$'}) < 1260035787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : grep '' $page | sed 's!</?title>!!g' < 1260035787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discuss. < 1260035790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sins I have committed: < 1260035796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. "Parsing" HTML with a regexp < 1260035807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have expected to commit more in such a rag-tag script. < 1260035947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION removes the <h1> and makes the <title> visible instead. I am crazy. < 1260036083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's kosher to do that. < 1260036340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260036625 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260036692 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur was actually asking for the supremum. < 1260036760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is e to the power of (pi times the square root of 163). < 1260036879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o < 1260037006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1260037023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont make me hurt you :| < 1260037105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. 67, not 163. < 1260037176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be nice if there was a minimalist, command-line, open-source symbolic calculation system with sane syntax. < 1260037202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, somewhere where you could type things like e^(pi*sqrt(163)) and be able to calculate it to arbitrary precision. < 1260037705 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you should write that utility. < 1260037741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to, and it wouldn't be all that hard to write the core language. But writing all the mathematical functions that go on top? And then rewriting them efficiently? < 1260037746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kinda lose interest at that point. < 1260037759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, google does that. < 1260037770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't. < 1260037794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, it isn't symbolic. For two, its set of operations and functions is extremely limited. For three, it cannot calculate to arbitrary precision. < 1260037848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolic math libraries inevitably become big and bulky < 1260037864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a library, a language and core library. < 1260037873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Existing non-symbolic languages would be hell to use for symbolic stuff. < 1260037882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't see why. Their overall size, sure; simply due to their coverage. < 1260037886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the individual functions? < 1260037896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHCi can accept syntax like e^(pi*sqrt(163)), but obviously, GHCi isn't minimalist. < 1260037902 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppo kinda like algebra text books? :P < 1260037909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: That isn't symbolic nor arbitrary precision. < 1260037916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Bulky because there are a bunch of features you inevitably want to accept, like retrieving the simplest form < 1260037917 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be arbitrary precision. < 1260037924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e^(pi*sqrt(163)) :: CReal < 1260037927 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :th algorithms of algebra are really realyl hard stuff < 1260037929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Technically, yes; practically, no, because it's not symbolic! < 1260037938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And CReal is far more limited than a symbolic system. < 1260037939 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean very involved in the basic case.. and then you have optimizations < 1260037947 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I disagree that you couldn't do it in an existing language; a language with sufficiently-descriptive operators and overloading could do it fine < 1260037947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can actually compare symbolic things for equality, for instance. < 1260037956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it with these people thinking a symbolic mathematics environment is the same as a calculator?! < 1260037962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes, but not as comfortably. < 1260037984 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose GHCi could handle that symbolically as well. < 1260037985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, "a*pi*asdjads" giving that back instead of an undefined-name error? Not likely in a normal language. < 1260037992 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e^(pi*sqrt(163)) :: Expr, or something. < 1260037998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Thus showing you don't know what making a symbolic environment entails — see above. < 1260038039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I claim that GHCi would accept strings like a*pi*asdjads? < 1260038053 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I did; my conception of what "symbolic" means keeps changing. < 1260038074 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: For instance, aside from the awkwardness of a lack of operators, you could do symbolic C++ pretty easily. < 1260038090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1260038094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qs can almost do this < 1260038100 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1260038152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should write a QS plugin < 1260038181 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QS? < 1260038185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: No, it can't almost do this, at all. < 1260038188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even remotely. < 1260038197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Quicksilver. < 1260038203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X thing. It's for combining data and stuff. < 1260038212 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260038230 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can type into qs _some_ stuff < 1260038231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1260038235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like there's a calculate action that you can give 2+2, you can search the system for a file then email it to someone in one chain (like "somethinginthefilename<tab>email<tab>some name<enter>"). < 1260038239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nothing even remotely related to this. < 1260038242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=sqrt(3^2 + 4^2) < 1260038245 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and itll spit out 5 < 1260038248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Pretty easily, but it'd be uncomfortable to use. < 1260038254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: THAT'S CALLED A FUCKING CALCULATOR >_< < 1260038264 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That sounds like my Alt-F2 < 1260038270 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Excel :P < 1260038287 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yeah, it would be uncomfortable for complex maths < 1260038299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know ehird < 1260038302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then on the other side of things, there's software like Sage < 1260038310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is so ridiculously complex that you almost explode < 1260038316 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but calculator should be able to get everything but the pi part in e^(pi*sqrt(163)) < 1260038342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you know that sage is shit because it has its own livecd :) < 1260038342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: INCORRECT. < 1260038342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Not to arbitrary precision. < 1260038343 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except e^x would have to be exp(x) < 1260038343 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oddly, i cant get =exp(2) to work... < 1260038345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is why you should create a math plugin! < 1260038346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not symbolically, so that the expression itself can be modified and compared. < 1260038351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Why? < 1260038361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't be using OS X soon enough, and you could easily do it by making something that calls out to my tool. < 1260038362 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because qs is the new commandline 8D < 1260038374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embedding software of massive complexity into such a prison is stupid. < 1260038381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're switching to a nix machine? < 1260038382 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1260038396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Custom-assembled Linux. < 1260038399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing like most distros. < 1260038412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closer to my perfect OS than OS X. < 1260038436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Do tell. < 1260038454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to be using minimalist, Unixy tools, so that the command-line and the filesystem actually become a viable tool for approaching the ehirdOS linguistic interface ideal. < 1260038455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. That distro you've been talking about. < 1260038456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260038461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIKHQ < 1260038463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXPERT MEMORISER < 1260038549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: incidentally, the LiveCD litmus test also works for rejecting Asterisk < 1260038576 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux is clearly shit then < 1260038632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux isn't a program. < 1260038770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sitemap script written in the rc shell. Well, that's a first. < 1260038784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying to get my shit together and actually publish some stuff on the interwebnets.) < 1260039058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure making an element in <head> visible is a sin of some kind. < 1260039110 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<title>? < 1260039116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260039133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm attempting to manually write the pages, and the overhead I have with <h1> gone is just a few simple lines < 1260039147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically < 1260039155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<!doctype html> < 1260039155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<html> < 1260039156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<head> < 1260039156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<title>WHATEVER THE TITLE IS < 1260039156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260039156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260039157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260039159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...content... < 1260039171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
Elliott Hird
< 1260039172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260039173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260039174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*html < 1260039192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only ones I have to "remember" are the stylesheet and address lines, as i know the rest < 1260039213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, it feels a bit weird as i have to make itself visible, then hide everything inside , then unhide ... < 1260039483 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260039574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1260039574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dilution 1:10^60 - On average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient < 1260039575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dilution 1:10^400 - Dilution of popular homeopathic flu remedy Oscillococcinum < 1260039575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]] < 1260039654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oscillococcinum"? What the fuck does that mean? < 1260039660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oscillating cock"? < 1260039710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds MEDICAL! < 1260039714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be MEDICINE! < 1260039891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260040038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oscillo-: a prefix formed from "oscillating". Coccus: spherical bacterium. -In: a diminutive suffix. -Um: a Latin accusative suffic. < 1260040055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it means "little oscillating spherical bacterium". < 1260040088 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, -inum is a cute medicinal prefix, chosen in emulation of "platinum", which means "little silver". < 1260040174 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260040860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides he probably doesn't like the title-is-a-visible-element thing, considers reverting it back < 1260041028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But on the other hand, writing out the title manually is bothersome. Gawd, I'm so indecisionful. < 1260041241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260041434 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260042001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION realises his sitemap sorts in alphabetical order... < 1260042001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...on the filename < 1260042712 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't fix it; it will be fascinating. < 1260042817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: But it'll be quite annoying. "A defence of preemptive mutitasking" will appear under p, since it is preemptive.html. < 1260042817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260042830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only need a sitemap because I'm eschewing on-page navigational aids, anyway. < 1260042838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's just for simplicity. < 1260042857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may not even need a sitemap, if I can make the off-page navigational aids compelling and useful enough. < 1260042875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, I think I'm tempted to write that symbolic tool. < 1260042907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is that, like quantumEd said, the basic algebra algorithms I'd have to implement efficiently would be a huge bitch. < 1260042998 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, wait, you're making a web site? < 1260043002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and even the simplest things like an algorithm to calculate pi efficiently to theh Nth place in any base are a bitch. < 1260043012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes; I'm trying to get my act together and start publishing stuff online. < 1260043028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote http://sprunge.us/RMJD for it. < 1260043051 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you didn't reply sarcastically. < 1260043077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm feeling in a particularly unsarcastic mood right now. < 1260043096 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange. < 1260043103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any particular reason why you asked me? < 1260043105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders how to take advantage of this situation. < 1260043115 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I was interested in looking at it. < 1260043183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't actually written anything more than http://sprunge.us/RMJD for it, so imagine the *text in asterisks* is bold, the underlined text is heading-sized and bold, and it's all in a non-monospaced font. < 1260043184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taraaa! < 1260043319 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads. < 1260043327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your conclusion is probably correct in most cases. < 1260043368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what cases is it incorrect? < 1260043399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can think of embedded systems as one: all tasks are generally from the same source, and resources are limited enough that minimising unnecessary task-switching is a big plus. < 1260043402 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one process legitimately decides that it needs a lot of processing power for a little while. < 1260043417 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, that. < 1260043493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Most systems nowadays are multi-core or even multi-CPU. < 1260043519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A task can be dedicated to a CPU and have it to itself while the other tasks switch on the other coress. < 1260043521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cores < 1260043523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dedicated to a core < 1260043556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that advantage isn't big enough to make up for the effort. Today's supercomputing is done on systems that use preemptive multitasking, and it works fine. < 1260043566 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs. < 1260043572 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're not really contradicting each other, here. < 1260043590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1260043600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, the average salary for a Haskell job is $198,000. < 1260043605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nice. < 1260043704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's almost anomalously nice. < 1260043728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a very specialised skill and not many people want it. < 1260043731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Gee, that word looks a lot like a misspelling.) < 1260043746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Companies like Galois do heavy-duty reliable systems and the like, so that's high-salary already. < 1260043765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also happen to be one of the main users of, and contributors to, Haskell. < 1260043773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So, yeah." < 1260043982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww; nhttpd appears to not be able to look up foo.html when /foo does not exist. < 1260044000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can't get nice urls like http://domain.org/preemptive for preemptive.html. < 1260044267 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does an HTTP response tell you what the filename is? < 1260044318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1260044320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1260044458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl's queries doth confuse. < 1260045007 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it can with Content-Disposition: Attachment; filename=blah.gif < 1260045013 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or something like that) < 1260045043 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, your browser then shows a download dialog instead of the actual file. < 1260045241 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/729863.txt?key=ywp02s8p8potpiakeo6q <- Parsec in C#. It's a lot uglier without full type inference. :( < 1260045393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : addOp = ('+'.ToParser().Select<Func<int, int, int>>(c => (x, y) => x + y)) < 1260045394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | ('-'.ToParser().Select<Func<int, int, int>>(c => (x, y) => x - y)); < 1260045394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puke. < 1260045413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have an opinion on digit separators in a symbolic mathematics language? < 1260045422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm considering allowing 1,000,000 and the like, just with commas. < 1260045422 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it can't infer Select's type parameter from the lambda expression :( < 1260045428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Europeans can go fuck off yo) < 1260045429 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wondering. < 1260045447 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 1_000_000 is good enough < 1260045463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: In a programming language, yes. < 1260045466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a mathematics environment? < 1260045486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that, getting a result like < 1260045493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-(log(2)/1,063,382,396,627,932,698,323,045,648,242,756,608) < 1260045494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back is obviously preferable to any other way of formatting the number < 1260045497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 timesOneThousandPlus 000 timesOneThousandPlus 000 < 1260045537 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what's log(1,000,000)? Computers don't have common sense :( < 1260045562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: I could require that to be log(1,000, 000) or whatever. < 1260045566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But indeed, that is ugly. < 1260045577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One option is spaces, but it's a non-option; spaces are multiplication. < 1260045581 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, for digit separators, I think ' is the most practical. < 1260045596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: That's weirder than _, but might just work. < 1260045598 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually in use, and I can't immediately think of any other use for it in math. < 1260045608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Derivative. < 1260045635 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sucks for the people taking the derivatives of constants, I guess < 1260045655 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but numbers aren't functions. You *can't* take their derivative. < 1260045667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, okay; ' it is. < 1260045671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless, you know, you're in automatically-treat-things-as-being-of-different-types-land. < 1260045691 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What's {1, 2, 3} + 5? {6, 7, 8}, of course.) < 1260045711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works in Mathematica, and probably other environments too. < 1260045730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more sets/lists/whatever being magic, though,. < 1260045732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*though. < 1260045739 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1260045742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Depending on your definition, you can take their derivative; it's just monumentally unexciting. < 1260045753 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell doesn't like that magic. Haskell likes to make that magic unnecessary. < 1260045770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell fails at it, at least in this context. < 1260045798 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map (+ 5) [1, 2, 3] < 1260045814 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can conceive of a less faily way to do that. < 1260045878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not How Things Work, though. You don't have to explicitly specify that, but in Haskell you do. < 1260045899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds himself trying to avoid Mathematica's names for things, even when they're good. < 1260045901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop that, stupidhird. < 1260045932 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My inner math platonist says that in most cases, Things Work How Haskell works. < 1260045952 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Math platonists are silly.) < 1260046109 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260046199 0 :lifthrasiir!i=58O9BYj3@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260046218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange. I can't get Mathematica to give me a number without a x 10^-foo at the end. < 1260046221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not hard, Mathematica. < 1260046332 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiply every number by 10^10^10. < 1260046364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, shush. :P < 1260046412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes a concession to computerism by representing the multiplication sign as *. < 1260046415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, x; you're ambiguous. < 1260046446 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that (10**10)**10 or 10**(10**10)? < 1260046468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10^10^10 is 10^(10^10) because (10^10)^10 is 10^(10*10). < 1260046475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how silly it is to put digit separators after the decimal point. < 1260046491 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so silly that there's a practical reason not to. < 1260046544 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember that the convention after the decimal point is to use one every eight digits. < 1260046554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(:-P, btw) < 1260046567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Mathematica does it. < 1260046609 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260046618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which begs the question, should it be padded out? < 1260046624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. -6.518'324'76 or -6.518'324'760? < 1260046635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter is more understandable but... feels like it's straying from the purpose of displaying a number. < 1260046642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there's no point putting a dud 0 there. < 1260046711 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not padding it out gives you a certain feeling under certain circumstances, i.e. makes something clearer. < 1260046722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/729983.txt?key=rl9toh4jbce5llyo0eguba < 1260046723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I present to you an imaginary session with my tool. < 1260046731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes a really useless piece of information clearer, but at least it does make it clearer. < 1260046745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ = result of last line, $$ = result of previous line < 1260046751 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine if all traffic lights were white for the sake of elegance. < 1260046753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll probably have up to $$$$ < 1260046764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe a function for everything prior < 1260046792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. < 1260046802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly the code for that will be a bitch. < 1260046810 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be kind of nice if your syntax allowed $ to be a function operating on itself when concatenated directly like that. < 1260046813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need a whole layout system. < 1260046819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: like $($)? < 1260046828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, $ is just a regular identifier character < 1260046834 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantically $($), syntactically just $. < 1260046841 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it would probably be too complicated. < 1260046844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syntactically just $$ you mean. < 1260046845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have function multiplication = application. < 1260046848 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do mean. < 1260046852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x → f(x) < 1260046860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ $ → $($) < 1260046882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe even x f → a function taking y and returning f(x,y). < 1260046892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could do $ $ $ and have it... be ambiguous. < 1260046895 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JCaAlrjV@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260046896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traditionally, function multiplication is composition, since composition is actually associative. Then again, Haskell points out that f x meaning f(x) is really elegant. < 1260046896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll scrap that idea. < 1260046919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think having f g work as composition would be cool. < 1260046920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me why putting things next to each other means multiplication rather than addition or something. < 1260046931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: For convenience in algebra when doing 2a and the like. < 1260046944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1260046948 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs. < 1260046950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it does, so that's how I'm doin' it. < 1260046959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math notation seems really arbitrary. < 1260046964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1260046969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also quite pretty and convenient. < 1260046988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm considering letting $ be both a value and a function somehow. < 1260046990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, f (x) == f x in Haskell. < 1260046996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So $ = $(1), $$ = $(2), etc. < 1260047000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1260047005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (x,y), of course, is quite different from f x y. < 1260047005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be $$ is a separate variable. < 1260047019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But $(x) is the xth last line of history, and $ by itself is $(0). < 1260047028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue with that idea is that you can't pass around $ the function. < 1260047039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This operation's going to have a symbol. This one's going to have a symbol, but it's going to be optional. This one's going to have a symbol that the operands go above and below instead of beside. This one's going to have a symbol that extends above the top of its operand. This one's not going to have a symbol at all. < 1260047071 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's any point in trying to reinvent math notation. I suppose it is what computer systems do all the time. < 1260047077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think division as two rows separated by a line was created to break up the unending linear monotony. :P < 1260047104 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think your FACE breaks up the linear monotony < 1260047125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the word "division" to mean separation predated or postdated the use of a line separating two rows to represent division. < 1260047239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In[35]:= FullSimplify[ < 1260047239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a^n + b^n == c^n, {Element[a, Integers], Element[b, Integers], < 1260047240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Element[c, Integers], Element[n, Integers], a > 0, b > 0, c > 0, < 1260047240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n > 2}] < 1260047240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out[35]= False < 1260047241 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hi, seawolf.cis.orsum.edu." "Hey, munroe.nasa.gov. I've been having some ideas about math notation." "Great, can you send them to me raw on TCP port 12020?" "Well, they total 3.6 gigabytes. I think you'll want me to just explain them to you." < 1260047248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematica: Yep, we know Fermat's Last Theorem." < 1260047254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can calculate that in less than a second, us." < 1260047271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: xD < 1260047297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing about theorems is that in general, they're easier to verify than to find in the first place. < 1260047307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You should click http://pastie.org/729983.txt?key=rl9toh4jbce5llyo0eguba because you are a bad person if you haven't. < 1260047317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders draw()ing something more complex < 1260047358 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How semblant of Mathematica. < 1260047381 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wonder why we're allowed to say "semblant" instead of "resemblant" but not "semble" instead of "resemble".) < 1260047416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why is it pronounced "rezemble"? "Semblant" isn't pronounced that way, is it?) < 1260047550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: How does it resemble Mathematica, other than being a symbolic mathematical computerthingy? < 1260047557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, okay, D and N as function names. < 1260047577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/729994.txt?key=f2ktaru6ipl0umkusliusw < 1260047578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should derivatives be drawn by default? YOUR OPINION IS MORE VALUABLE THAN SALT < 1260047595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess one alternative I didn't list there is f'(x). < 1260047629 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D \x (x^2) = 2 x < 1260047631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except probably not. < 1260047648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point of draw is that it uses ASCII smarts to draw the mathematical notation :P < 1260047674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing it will be "fun"... I think it'll require an entire layout engine to handle nested expressions. < 1260047674 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the only notations that look like the inputs are the second and the fifth. < 1260047687 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm pretty sure the second is more common. < 1260047720 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would something like (1/2)^3 draw as? < 1260047736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sec. < 1260047741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll draw it. < 1260047765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, looking like the input isn't a huge deal. < 1260047774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point is so that you can examine an expression... mathematically. < 1260047806 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would the other notations handle D(x^2, x)? < 1260047826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sec, lemme handle the (1/2)^3 first. < 1260047855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/729997.txt?key=0lv8wukto6chcghrhldzw < 1260047858 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's Epigram's strange way of doing (1/2)^3, by the way: http://pastebin.ca/1703894 < 1260047864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would look like one of these, none of which are particularly satisfying. < 1260047894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for your D(x^2, x) query. < 1260047901 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's reminiscent of the C++ library for representing numbers by box-drawing. < 1260047903 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Unicode. :-P < 1260047909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: What does it do? < 1260047917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I don't think there's a Unicode character that would help. < 1260047940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Box drawing characters! < 1260047955 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bezier curves! Wait, no. < 1260047980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my favorite one there is the parentheses-only one, because it uses only parentheses. < 1260048008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Incidentally, Mathematica's TraditionalForm does it as (rendering to ASCII here): < 1260048018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 < 1260048019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dx < 1260048019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- < 1260048019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dx < 1260048025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the d being the actual funny curly d. < 1260048042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It handles the f(x) case with s/x^2/f(x)/. < 1260048052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's the most common representation, actually. < 1260048069 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a funny, curly way of drawing that. < 1260048086 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I can't find it, but it looks something like this: http://pastie.org/730002 < 1260048086 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the most common representation is d/dx with the thingy after it. < 1260048098 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a 3D one too. < 1260048120 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, found it. http://www.xs4all.nl/~weegen/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml < 1260048136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/730003.txt?key=z1fpulfpftxpnwckw4r9ma < 1260048141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of curiosity, how does Epigram handle it? < 1260048155 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: that's mighty strange. < 1260048160 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: how does Epigram handle what? < 1260048168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The derivative. < 1260048195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not for math, so it doesn't have any syntax for that. < 1260048263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that Epigram. < 1260048276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/730005.txt?key=vzaayu7at3t3lfvthl8q < 1260048282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Final contendors for derivative drawing. < 1260048318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like them all equally, I think. I think I very marginally prefer dx to d x, but the skewed alignment caused by using dx almost cancels that out. < 1260048340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw, there probably won't be any way of actually parsing draw()s output. I'm not *that* crazy. < 1260048448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Any vote? < 1260048453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1 is probably the leasst conventional notation. < 1260048456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*least < 1260048461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That biases me against it, but it is rather clean. < 1260048476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, imagine if the derivatived expression contains a division. < 1260048483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1 would look really weird, but the others wouldn't. < 1260048486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, #2 might. < 1260048517 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My instant runoff vote: 3, 1, 2. < 1260048574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instant runoff voting is amusingly useless when you're the only voter. < 1260048606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any reason you prefer #3 to #2? It's more conventional to have no space, but it's also conventional to, you know, not actually use the Latin letter "d"; and the space helps align the top line. < 1260048611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is weirder-looking, though, I admit. < 1260048626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No fan of 4 and 5 I see. < 1260048652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2 looks kind of like a guy standing in a really awkward pose. < 1260048663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are strange. < 1260048669 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat, yes. < 1260048685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts in a fun division into the equation to test each one. < 1260048701 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's conventional to not actually use the Latin letter "d"? < 1260048704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, and a power. < 1260048707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You use the weird curly d. < 1260048719 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only sometimes. < 1260048739 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An actual, ordinary d is more common. < 1260048760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, ordinary d is the total derivative (a.k.a. "the derivative"), and curly d is the partial derivative. < 1260048781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, #1 fails horribly trying to do D(f(x)/g(2^x), x). < 1260048790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Hmm, right, that's just Mathematica fucking with me. < 1260048802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how I'll represent le partiality in ASCII. < 1260048851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?d, because ? vaguely resembles a curling iron. < 1260048862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Another poll (I hope your IRC is monospaced for this): < 1260048869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ( x) < 1260048869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(2 ) < 1260048870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1260048874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x < 1260048875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(2 ) < 1260048885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first looks weird to me, the second very slightly confusing. < 1260048928 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second definitely has confusion potential. < 1260048934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, maybe not. < 1260048943 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one is bigger, so it's better. < 1260048962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, the first one is really hard to read IMO. < 1260048979 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1260049034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1260049036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/730013.txt?key=r1dtedsmra4rfjswrynhq < 1260049045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which all of them fail horribly. < 1260049050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, the first line has a repetition there. < 1260049051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore it. < 1260049076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say 2 and 3 fared the best there; 1 the worst. < 1260049100 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 could definitely fare better. < 1260049113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a subscript following the D, not preceding the expression. < 1260049140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is. < 1260049142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me fix that. < 1260049163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll notice I added more spacing to all of them but one. < 1260049180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the layout engine will, when confronted with putting a division or other block next to another thing, add another space. < 1260049205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/730017.txt?key=vxyaitcstugqz67yca1bw < 1260049207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed version. < 1260049215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 does quite well now; about as well as 2 and 3. < 1260049225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 and 3 are still more common notations, I believe. < 1260049261 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the first three better than the last two, because they go before the expression rather than around it. < 1260049274 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thereby taking up less room and staying out of the way. < 1260049287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree; the last two suck gigantic donkey balls. To use a metaphor. < 1260049300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Care to rank 1-3? < 1260049323 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same as before, I think. 3, 1, 2. < 1260049328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Concur is like conquer without a q, and it has a c, and doesn't have that e between those two letters at the end." < 1260049333 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since, you know, they're not really different. < 1260049342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they're exactly the same layout-wise. < 1260049344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a different prefix. < 1260049361 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different from how they were before you made it fractiony, I mean. < 1260049371 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the words are pronounced differently and mean different things. < 1260049384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And are different. < 1260049457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Do you think I should make the layout engine able to output to multiple different formats? It seems like at the end of it, the conversion to ASCII would be a relatively small part. < 1260049465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all hypothetical right now, of course. < 1260049477 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, really? You're telling me that these differently-spelled, differently-pronounced words that mean different things are *different*? < 1260049506 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably would be a good idea to make the layout engine able to output to multiple different formats, in the end. < 1260049517 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I would think you should do more necessary things first. < 1260049522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :draw() will probably be like half the code :-P < 1260049537 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260049541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to do conditionals < 1260049550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica-style if(a,b,c) seems so ugly, but it is rather orthogonaly. < 1260049647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with "if x then y else c"? < 1260049656 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Notice my clever choice of letters.) < 1260049735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION spends a few minutes trying to find a relevant quote < 1260049850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give up. < 1260049945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders product(). < 1260050018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sum(), by extension. < 1260050020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact(n) := product(k, 1, n, k) Not enough definition. < 1260050020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact(n) := product(k := 1, n, k) Weird use of assignment syntax. < 1260050020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact(n) := product(k := {1, n}, k) That's not actually what it's assigning k to. < 1260050020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact(n) := product(k, {1, n}, k) I can wrap arguments in braces, too. < 1260050149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I think I will adopt if x then y else c as the if syntax. < 1260050158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll just be sugar for if(x,y,c). I think. < 1260050359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My function argument syntax doesn't allow for pattern matching on symbolic arguments. Mathematica solves this by making you mark every variable argument by suffixing it with _, but I don't like that < 1260050365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe {} means match. < 1260050367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: < 1260050375 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260050379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo({bar}) := quux < 1260050379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(bar) := bar < 1260050388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(bar) → quux < 1260050389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(xyzzy) → xyzzy < 1260050426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bunch of identical factorials: http://pastie.org/730035.txt?key=cjgts9swnsynq9tyfmociq < 1260050438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last one is amusing. < 1260050665 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :productAs \k goesFrom 1 to n of k < 1260050668 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stop bothering you now. < 1260050680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I don't consider that bothering. < 1260050689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I used that definition is because I was mumbling on how to do product(). :P < 1260050712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, an issue with your if syntax, or perhaps with my lack of semicolons: if you have < 1260050718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact(n) := if n = 1 then 1 < 1260050723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know if the statement's over < 1260050730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could be an else on the next line < 1260050746 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What Would Haskell Do? < 1260050765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have a very complex, hard-to-code-without-an-editor layout system. < 1260050805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what Agda would do. < 1260050818 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more languages should have "easy to code without an editor" as a design goal < 1260050828 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe just having semicolons is what you should do. < 1260050849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: But that bothers you when you just want to calculate 2+2 and the like. < 1260050856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it gives an impression of statement-ness to expressions. < 1260050882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I'm not sure that's true. It is a goal for mine, though, because the primary use is via the command-line tool. < 1260050884 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it doesn't have to be an actual semicolon; it could be the word "please". :-P < 1260050934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have no such thing as statements, and make every program be one huge expression! < 1260050935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, it would be interesting to have an implementation that used an HTTP server to serve a little HTML+CSS+JS page with a prompt ajaxin' to /evaluate (or whatever), so that all the draw()-style output becomes HTML tables and the like. < 1260050947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to sleep soon. < 1260050954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: There are no such things as statement. < 1260050962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*statements < 1260050976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a;b is just an expression that evaluates a, disregards the result, and evaluates b. < 1260050986 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And expressions can be empty, so you can do {a;b;c;}. < 1260051044 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you've already implemented my suggestion! Scary1 < 1260051052 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/1/!/ < 1260051063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the obvious thing to do. Even Ruby does it. < 1260051106 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, I just got a rather silly idea: plaintext markup syntax stuff. < 1260051116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean... HTML? < 1260051131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would render to ASCII art. < 1260051143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1260051147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w3m -dump < 1260051212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<rows><r>x<sup>n</sup></r><r><fill>-</fill></r><r>n!</r></rows> < 1260051252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'll be basically what the internal data structures of my layout engine will have. < 1260051359 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will the sizes of rectangles be determined entirely bottom-up-ly, or will there be some top-down-ness as well? < 1260051416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, verbosify. < 1260051449 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you share my idea of what a "rectangle" is? < 1260051484 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a lot like HTML's blocks. Rectangular shapes that the stuff is made of. < 1260051506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expand bottom-up-ly, top-down-ness, determining of sizes of rectangles. < 1260051529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260051566 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose I have some subexpression. Will the dimensions of its bounding rectangle be determined entirely by the subexpression itself or also its surroundings? < 1260051626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entirely by the subexpression itself. However, the dimensions of the parent, and spacing of the surroundings, will change. < 1260051654 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260051798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that hypothetical HTTP/HTML/CSS/JS interface I mentioned, it should have an interface to the documentation so that you can click on an example and it switches to the prompt, with the example filled in. < 1260052207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It bothers me that the simple stuff is so subtle. < 1260052216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This makes me want to work on my project thing. And when I think "work on my project", I think "figure out how to formalize functions". < 1260052222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that means the complex stuff won't just be complex, it'll be incredibly subtle. < 1260052230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Symbolically! < 1260052241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manipulating symbolic expressions is both slow and elegant and useful < 1260052245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/./ < 1260052258 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, symbolically. < 1260052297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then a function is just an expression with a free variable. < 1260052329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, free expression; f(x) could be a free expression if x is defined but f(x) isn'tt. < 1260052334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calling a function is just applying a table of expression→expression. < 1260052342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. f(x)=x^2. < 1260052368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A more traditional function = parameter list + expression; parameter list is turned into a table in the obvious way and applied to the expression. < 1260052370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1260052379 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be theoretically sound, since my project is centered on a theorem prover. < 1260052392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, just theoreticise my statements. < 1260052394 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a function were just an expression with a free variable, there wouldn't even be uncountably many functions. < 1260052410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, why not? < 1260052419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One or more free expressions. < 1260052427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in fact, a function is an expression. < 1260052438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that you can't really do a meaningful replacement without a free expression. < 1260052446 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I could say that a function is an expression with two free variables combined with a set that fills one of them in. < 1260052452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1260052461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why two? Why free variable (that's not symbolic)? < 1260052467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need free expression for f(x). < 1260052494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in f(2), we can fill in f(2) -> 4 or f({placeholder x}) -> x*2 and get 4 back. < 1260052509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how symbolic computation works: everything is a rewrite rule. < 1260052516 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260052526 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a pet function named Bob. For every real number x, Bob(x) is a real number taken randomly from the standard normal distribution. < 1260052534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no "functions" as separate objects per se, although of course you can pass f and then the function does f(x) and since f rewrites to SomeFunction it becomes SomeFunction(x). < 1260052554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *definitely* want functions to be values here. < 1260052555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If functions are a thing in themselves, e.g. in the lambda calculus, it's not symbolic. < 1260052564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Boo hiss. < 1260052576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, symbolic languages can have lambdas too, they're just done as a rewriting rule. :P < 1260052590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I want S -> T to actually be a type, because it means something as a mathematical sentence. < 1260052598 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Namely, "S implies T".) < 1260052605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's done as a rewrite rule of lambda(x,y)(z) to replace(x,z,y) < 1260052614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does the replacement thingy from lambda-calculus < 1260052625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, this isn't suitable for a theorem prover < 1260052691 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260052728 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260052857 0 :jpc!n=jw@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260052865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, musing about this sure is fun. I guess if I get off my ass and spend peopleyears (Post-feminist adaptation of manyears, dude. I mean, uh, ... associate.) of work on it, it might be a viable alternative to... an old version of Mathematica. < 1260052880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, all I want is a fun symbolic computation environment that isn't really weird like Mathematica and isn't really archaic like Axiom and the like. < 1260052883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Maxima. < 1260052885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See you for today. < 1260052928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260053766 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260057213 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260059147 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260060063 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260060241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the logs have changed their timezone... < 1260060432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like they moved to china... < 1260060448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either that, or perth < 1260060517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, perth would have daylight saving < 1260060612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1260060628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia is confusing. as is perth. < 1260060636 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranges are too < 1260060646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A referendum held on May 19 2009 concluded that daylight saving will not be held in the future." < 1260060890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wut < 1260060916 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260060932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok there _may_ be a few other insignificant countries in that time zone < 1260061906 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260062894 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260063470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260065093 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. <<< actually it's pretty simple to do it, basically you just do dynamic programming on expressions, and for each, store the size of the bounding box for the pic, combining them is just a matter of trivial. < 1260065357 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Remind me why putting things next to each other means multiplication rather than addition or something. <<< it's because of a(b + c) = ab + ac; a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) looks too aggressive! < 1260065397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, the latter one can't be correct. err... < 1260065418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, was that with no operator = + ? < 1260065434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you use + too < 1260065616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: The thing about theorems is that in general, they're easier to verify than to find in the first place. <<< yes, but that's not what mathematica can do, it can *use* the theorem. < 1260065659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, your client uses : for what someone said? < 1260065662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's confusing < 1260065702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: because it is often used to address someone (like this, though I set my client to use , normally for tab completion) < 1260065864 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260065902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, anyway, how is a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) supposed to work? What was the implicit operator there? < 1260065942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of +-/* works < 1260066000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> Oh well, all I want is a fun symbolic computation environment that isn't really weird like Mathematica and isn't really archaic like Axiom and the like. < 1260066000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> And Maxima. < 1260066001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260066005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with maxima? < 1260066039 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Uh, why not? <<< because there is a countable amount of pairs like that, consider a base 257 number, each function can be considered a distinct number in that base => at most |N| functions < 1260066149 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's confusing < 1260066167 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it confused someone just the other day < 1260066186 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oklofok, anyway, how is a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) supposed to work? What was the implicit operator there? <<< reversing addition and multiplication < 1260066233 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that starts looking natural after doing a bit of boolean algebra, it isn't exactly inferior in any way < 1260066269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ah yeah < 1260066278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, so + means "times"? < 1260066279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1260066315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's just distributivity of * over +, a(b + c) = ab + ac < 1260066338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, so you say "(a + b)(a + c)" would be same as normal "ac+ab"? < 1260066348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you missed one c above < 1260066360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1260066389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1260066416 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if xy = yx, then yes < 1260066427 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise just ab+ac < 1260066447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, just that I think it should be "ac" not "a" in the first term in: a + bc = (a + b)(a + c) < 1260066462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1260066476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this uncommon notation sure is confusing! < 1260066523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh wait, you said boolean algebra? < 1260066587 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ab + bc would be (a + b)(b + c) in normal notation = (a + b)(c + b) = ac + ab + bc + b^2, which in reversed notation is (a + c)(a + b)(b + c)(b + b) < 1260066590 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no, that's not the same < 1260066598 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's not what i meant < 1260066626 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you reverse notations, reversed a + bc is normal a(b + c) = ab + ac, which is reversed (a + b)(a + c) < 1260066638 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in boolean algebra, it's directly a rule < 1260066645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) which seems.... almost but not quite correct? (^ doesn't work too well there... but can't be bothered to find the unicode codepoint) < 1260066668 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right < 1260066716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I always had problems remembering that law: if it was ^ or V that went between them < 1260066719 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use ^ and V, it's less confusing because the symmetry is more visible < 1260066724 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: both. < 1260066744 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything that is true in boolean algebra is true if you reverse them < 1260066745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yeah but I mean if: a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) or V (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c) < 1260066755 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reverse constant 1's and 0's < 1260066758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ^ < 1260066791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or /or a / < 1260066791 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260066812 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright think of it like this < 1260066838 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in "a V (b ^ c)", you're doing "a and (expression of b and c)" < 1260066857 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just do the "a and" thing inside the expression instead of doing it to the result < 1260066871 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get expression of (a and b) and (a and c) < 1260066872 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260066873 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1260066882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260066894 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that's helpful, i just think of it as outside => inside < 1260066894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260066900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is and in both cases < 1260066905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was mixing and and or < 1260066927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> in "a V (b ^ c)", you're doing "a and (expression of b and c)" <-- is actually: a or (b and c) < 1260066929 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well "a V (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c)" <<< this here makes no sense < 1260066953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1260066979 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ^ (b ^ c) = (a ^ b) ^ (a ^ c) is also a valid rule < 1260066997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes. But that again isn't the same as discussed here < 1260067013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was mixing ^ and V < 1260067077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, this is the distributivity stuff I'm talking about. < 1260067091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is probably a V (b ^ c) = (a V b) ^ (a V c) then < 1260067117 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the point is the expression does not change < 1260067124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes... < 1260067125 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was still clear from what i said, but apparently not < 1260067147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, it is just something I trouble memorizing for tests and such. < 1260067151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had* < 1260067171 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. you do know a(b + c) = ab + ac right? < 1260067198 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's really the exact same rule, it's just in boolean algebra you can put * = and, + = or, or just as well + = and, * = or < 1260067203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes, that is trivial in normal math. the issue is in boolean algebra and "whatever the English name is for the ^ and V notation" < 1260067245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260067296 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a(b + c) = ab + ac, put ^=*, V=+ and you get a ^ (b V c) = (a ^ b) V (a ^ c) < 1260067309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1260067319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, that was most helpful indeed < 1260067381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, but (a+b)(c+d) doesn't work the same as in "normal" math does it? < 1260067422 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)(c+d) meaning (a V b) ^ (c V d) or what do you mean? < 1260067429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about (a+b)(a-b) = aa-bb < 1260067436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well yes < 1260067452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, which would expand to (in normal math): < 1260067470 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works the same, (a+b)(c+d) = a(c+d) + b(c+d) = ac + ad + bc + bd < 1260067476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260067479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1260067516 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT also ab + ac = (a + ac)(b + ac) = (a + a)(a + c)(b + a)(b + c) < 1260067544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, I'm pretty sure rules don't work the same the other way though. not (a V b) = (not a) ^ (not b) < 1260067550 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again probably easier to see how that works if you use ^ and V, i'm just not used to the notation < 1260067556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing, how would not translate? < 1260067561 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)(a-b) = aa-bb <<< is this an axiom? < 1260067563 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not. < 1260067582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's -b anyway? < 1260067590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm? < 1260067590 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-b is usually an element such that b + (-b) = 0 < 1260067600 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these do not exist in boolean algebra < 1260067606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well, I meant (a+b)(a-b) == (a^2)-(b^2) < 1260067618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true in normal math < 1260067625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to remember rule. < 1260067630 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's nonsensical in boolean algebra. < 1260067644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not an axiom of course, just follows as a result from other rules < 1260067667 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but subtraction simply does not exist in boolean algebra < 1260067673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1260067676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1260067731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of it like this, all objects are nonnegative, and less than one (not literally, just a mnemonic ofc), so addition always gets you closer to 1, and multiplication gets you away from it, towards 0 < 1260067740 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects = elements in your algebra < 1260067765 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do know a boolean algebra is in fact any system whose elements follow these rules, and not just {0, 1} with some axioms added? < 1260067767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, you can't use the (a+b)^2 == a^2+2ab+b^2 rule either I think. < 1260067819 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)^2 = (a+b)(a+b) = a(a+b)+b(a+b) = aa + ab + ba + bb = a + b + ab, because both multiplication and addition are idempotent in BA < 1260067837 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't know that, ... = aa + bb + ab + ab < 1260067848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> you do know a boolean algebra is in fact any system whose elements follow these rules, and not just {0, 1} with some axioms added? <-- well yes, the same rules are at least in part shared with simple set theory < 1260067867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do union = + and intersection = * < 1260067907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, and what's even more interesting (and, sadly, what makes finite boolean algebras uninteresting) is that in fact for each finite boolean algebra B, there is a set that's completely isomorphic to B < 1260067928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1260067951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does finite/infinite mean in *this* specific context? < 1260067978 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isomorphism just meaning one-to-one correspondence between elements, and multiplication and addition work the exact same way in both systems < 1260067989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes I know what isomorphism is. < 1260067994 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same as always :) < 1260067997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learnt it in graph theory stuff < 1260068000 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Xeonidas < 1260068001 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite would be like {1, 2, 5} < 1260068014 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite would be like N < 1260068020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, as the set of possible values? < 1260068023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in* < 1260068042 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formally, infinite <==> there is a proper subset that can be put in bijection with the original set < 1260068074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh that's an interesting and very useful definition of infinite. You learn something new every day :) < 1260068111 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically what a boolean algebra is is a set where you have some dudes, and you have these rules called "and", "or" and "not". the axioms just limit what sort of mappings they can form between the elements < 1260068121 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite just means there's a finite amount of dudes < 1260068138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, usually Mr. True and Miss False? ;P < 1260068173 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also not "not", more like complement < 1260068185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you don't really need an actual operator for it < 1260068185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, but then what about the set of real numbers. Is there such a subset for it? < 1260068223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe you can form a bijection without starting somewhere. < 1260068252 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, we could take all numbers of the form bbbbb0,bbbbbb..., and just kinda move the b's before 0 one step to the right < 1260068299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how does this interact with cantor's diagonal argument? < 1260068311 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr. true and mr. false would form the simplest nontrivial boolean algebra, but for any n there is a boolean algebra with 2^n dudes < 1260068323 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these are *the only finite boolean algebras*Ă„ < 1260068338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what i meant by "for blah blah there's a set such that blah blah isomorphism" < 1260068340 0 :Xeonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas < 1260068342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm, I only worked with the true/false style boolean algebra < 1260068352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did know there were other types < 1260068359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just never came in contact with those < 1260068373 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said you knew sets also form a BA < 1260068388 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260068396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, actually what I said was that I knew that the same rules worked. < 1260068408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say I knew *why* this was < 1260068420 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260068426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this explains a lot < 1260068429 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be more precise, if we have any set S whatsoever, and take the powerset 2^S, then if you define and as intersection and or as union, then a boolean algebra will be formed < 1260068434 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = S, 0 = {} < 1260068443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice < 1260068460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nifty even < 1260068479 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prove the rules work is very simple, actually, you just have to prove a few things about unions and intersections < 1260068497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? hard? < 1260068507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, "hard to prove those" < 1260068523 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oklofok, how does this interact with cantor's diagonal argument? <<< cantor's thing says there is no surjection N -> R, i proved there's a surjection "subset of R" -> R < 1260068547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh right. But N is a subset of R < 1260068560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1260068567 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's not true that for all subsets Z of R, there is a surjection from Z to R < 1260068570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all subsets might have such a surjection < 1260068588 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider {}, it's a proper subset of R, but you can't map one of it's 0 elements to each element of R :P < 1260068595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, would it be possible to construct such a set that for all subsets there is a surjection? < 1260068611 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N is a big subset, and infinite one in fact; cantor's argument says it's still not big enough. < 1260068615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait yeah {}: All subsets of {} form a surjection against {} < 1260068621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1260068622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are none < 1260068629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes the whole thing pointless < 1260068631 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260068635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260068650 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that "hard to prove those" thing about < 1260068659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, about "<oklofok> to prove the rules work is very simple, actually, you just have to prove a few things about unions and intersections" < 1260068666 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say "hard" < 1260068672 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said "very simple" < 1260068672 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260068676 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a slight difference < 1260068684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, no, but you are in general way above my level in maths < 1260068690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260068697 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what you meant < 1260068703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260068738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what you consider trivial, I likely will consider "not too hard", what you consider "not too hard" I will likely go "huh?" at :P < 1260068765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apart from the really trivial trivial bits) < 1260068783 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's see, a(b + c) = ab + ac, with sets that's a \cap (b \cup c) = (a \cap b) \cup (a \cap c), well... do you even need a proof for that? < 1260068808 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're taking all elems that belong to either b or c < 1260068808 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1260068815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right latex. hm \cap is ^ and \cup = V right? < 1260068819 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we then remove all elems that belong to a < 1260068831 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it doesn't matter whether we remove all elems of a before or after the union < 1260068839 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just draw like a venn diagram < 1260068859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasdo you even need a proof for that? <-- a venn diagram works just fine iirc. < 1260068891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, argh you said that too a few lines below :P < 1260068900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah I don't need a proof for that one < 1260068918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for boolean algebra you can prove it with a truth table < 1260069012 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, if you want proof: a \cap (b \cup c) = {x | (x \in a) \and ((x \in b) \or (x \in c))} = {x | ((x \in a) \and (x \in b)) \or ((x \in a) \and (x \in c))} = (a \cap b) \cup (a \cap c), basically just open the definitions, and you're done < 1260069028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fires up tex to render that < 1260069057 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, for the boolean algebra with 2 elements you could write down a truth table < 1260069061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, \and? < 1260069068 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly < 1260069087 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see a mistake, but if there's an and, should be \and prolly < 1260069102 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, in fact, for any finite boolean algebra, you can write a "truth table" < 1260069110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, just lyx didn't like it. Not sure if it is there actually < 1260069122 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean obviously you can just check the rules work if you have a finite amount of elements < 1260069142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole bit \and((x\in b)\or(x\in c))}={x|((x\in a)\and(x\in b))\or((x\in a)\and(x\in c))}=(a\cap b)\cup(a\cap c) doesn't render. Just silently cut off < 1260069181 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the usual boolean algebra 0, 1 is just the powerset of a set with one element, {a}, you just have one dude < 1260069208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, makes sense < 1260069233 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a unique boolean algebra on the power set {{}, {a}}, then the "1" of that algebra is {a}, and {} is 0 < 1260069248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm from this follows that there is a boolean algebra with just {} ? < 1260069266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a degenerate case indeed < 1260069272 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could say it's the trivial boolean algebra < 1260069280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260069288 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no in fact i think there's the rule 0 != 1 < 1260069289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260069306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh there has to be at least one element? < 1260069360 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the boolean algebra with just {}" is the algebra you get if you take the powerset of {}, that is, {{}}, it has just one element, which is both 1 and 0 < 1260069370 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the empty boolean algebra i suppose would be even more trivial < 1260069377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having neither, set of dudes = {} < 1260069390 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure at least that is illegal < 1260069404 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't have a set of axioms here, and this is really not that important :P < 1260069428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260069572 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay there's a rule like "there has to be an element 1 with properties X" < 1260069588 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the properties say it's the biggest object) < 1260069589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260069593 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the algebra is empty < 1260069617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> "the boolean algebra with just {}" is the algebra you get if you take the powerset of {}, that is, {{}}, it has just one element, which is both 1 and 0 <-- that one is still valid? < 1260069624 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that's false. because there's no element, there isn't an element 1, even if the properties X would be trivially true because there are no objects < 1260069636 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260069646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but quite a useless one < 1260069688 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but i find thinking about the degenerate cases usually makes math feel more concrete, sorta like programming vs. using programs < 1260069714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, using programs being more concrete? < 1260069738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, btw that thing above rendered as something that actually shows up as you expected it would be: $a\cap\left(b\cup c\right)=\left\{ x|\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(\left(x\in b\right)OR\left(x\in c\right)\right)\right\} =\left\{ x|\left(\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(x\in b\right)\right)OR\left(\left(x\in a\right)AND\left(x\in c\right)\right)\right\} =\left(a\cap b\right)\cup\left(a\cap c\right)$ < 1260069745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there seems to be no \and or \or < 1260069764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, most importantly you forgot to escape the {} < 1260069803 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260069815 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like how programming makes you understand why programs don't always do what you want, maybe :) < 1260069822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ah < 1260069891 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe) math is similar, the details and degenerates aren't actually that useful, but so aren't unfinished programs < 1260069902 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno, feeling poetic maybe < 1260069904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260069906 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should do stuff now < 1260069913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, yeah very deep and poetic < 1260070001 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway has been fun discussing these important elementary school matters with you :P < 1260070019 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first attempt -> < 1260070019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm btw is there a surjection between R and C? < 1260070044 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260070048 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could take like < 1260070062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1260070071 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bababab.bababa.... to (bbbb.bbbb..., aaaa.aaaa...) < 1260070079 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(real, imag) < 1260070082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good idea < 1260070100 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that works, there are two representations for each real so there might be complications < 1260070119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, and there is the polar form < 1260070120 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is < 1260070121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb myself < 1260070175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1260070185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what you mean is? < 1260070200 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to prove if we have some (bbbb.bbb..., aaaa.aaaa...), then there's a real that maps to it, but the problem is when we're finding what to map bababa.babab.... to, we might actually use another representation for that real, say bababa.ccccc..., and actually map it to (bbb.ccc...., aaa.cccc) < 1260070203 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*... < 1260070208 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you follow this notation? < 1260070213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean that 1+2i and 12+0i? < 1260070230 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again the tuples are complex numbers (real, imag) < 1260070231 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260070237 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that question mean? < 1260070248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, forget it, was thinking backwards < 1260070256 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say in binary, 0.1111... = 1.0000... < 1260070263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260070296 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what "we map bababab.bababa.... to (bbbb.bbbb..., aaaa.aaaa...)" actually says is, given some real, we take a representation of it (one of the two), and map it to some complex number < 1260070310 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the complex number is different depending on the representation of the real we chose < 1260070314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1260070315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then this is not even well-defined < 1260070336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because using the two different representations, we could find two different complex numbers to which the function maps the real < 1260070343 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and functions don't do that. < 1260070349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, thus providing that C is larger than R? < 1260070357 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean "proving" < 1260070363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, err yeah < 1260070364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260070368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy typo < 1260070396 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, this doesn't prove that. kinda like saying "the ill-defined function f(x) = 0 and 1 isn't a surjection between R and C, therefore C is bigger than R" doesn't prove shit < 1260070423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260070450 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there definitely *is* a surjection from R to C, and in fact i could just fix the error < 1260070464 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we take some base say base 1010010 < 1260070467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, oh? < 1260070503 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, numbers that have 293 as their ith digit, map to complex numbers with 0 as their ith digit, and numbers that have 8544 as their ith digit, map to complex numbers with 1 as their ith digit < 1260070510 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything else can be chosen arbitrarily < 1260070532 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, for each complex number, we can construct a real number that has 293's and 8544's in the proper places < 1260070558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why 293 and 8544? < 1260070571 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because both 293 and 8544 are in the middle of the interval [0, 1010010), there won't be any complications < 1260070584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260070597 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers that only contain stuff from the "middle of the base", have unique representations, afaik < 1260070605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1260070611 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those were completely arbitrary, those numbers < 1260070629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260070638 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's a surjection, but not a bijection, as you can probably see if you followed that < 1260070662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.... right < 1260070678 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just needed the function's values to be nice for numbers whose base 1010010 representation only contains 293's and 8544's < 1260070685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what about constructing a bijection then? < 1260070785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a relevant theorem i can't find < 1260070799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260070822 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway something like if there's a surjection both ways then there's a bijection < 1260070829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly there's a surjection from C to R < 1260070835 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see it?) < 1260070836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260070838 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(:P) < 1260070856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just set the imaginary part to 0 < 1260070907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. well, technically R is a completely separate field, it doesn't even have imaginary parts. that's just how R is embedded into C. < 1260070920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway the function that takes the real part < 1260070921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1260070940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, not the one that returns the real part? < 1260070950 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes returns < 1260070955 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean takes from the number, and returns :P < 1260070958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260070961 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway second attempt coming soon. < 1260070963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not takes (as argument) < 1260070972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, well cya. I shouldn't hold you up longer < 1260070978 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes bad terminology < 1260070981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has been very interesting :) < 1260070996 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya! -> < 1260071129 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260073822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica sure is buggy... like altgr inserting space. Found a fix on google groups for it. < 1260076144 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-166.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260078953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just invented a feather-like language I think < 1260078996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least inspired by featuer < 1260078998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather* < 1260080441 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080447 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080447 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080447 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080447 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080449 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080449 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080449 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080449 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080452 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080496 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080496 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080496 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080496 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080496 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080496 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260080547 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-166.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080547 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080571 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260080603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh < 1260083186 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260083653 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260084734 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-5-248.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260086399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260086400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260087050 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260087168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:40:22 <oklofok> well anyway something like if there's a surjection both ways then there's a bijection < 1260087171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:40:29 <oklofok> clearly there's a surjection from C to R < 1260087186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is an injection there is obviously a surjection the other way < 1260087233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse is also true but probably requires the axiom of choice < 1260087251 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no! that's a shame because axiom of choice is true < 1260087255 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ack < 1260087261 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't* I ruined that joke < 1260087277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's independent. you can choose whether you include it. < 1260087285 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ?? < 1260087290 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the axioms are independent < 1260087333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. however it requires proof, which gödel and cohen provided for the axiom of choice at least (and the continuum hypothesis) < 1260087337 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people so often point out when they use choice.. nobody says, ..but that requires axiom of powerset < 1260087370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because choice is the only one which doesn't give you a unique thing you construct < 1260087701 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole logic set theory is based on has that property < 1260087754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm well yeah choosing an element from a general set doesn't really give a unique thing either < 1260087776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> yes, but subtraction simply does not exist in boolean algebra < 1260087812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use xor instead of union/or though < 1260087825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's just a Z_2 module < 1260087836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/module/vector space/ < 1260087860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1260087870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is not a vector space operation < 1260087906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really mean, it's then a ring (boolean ring) < 1260087908 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260087954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course addition = subtraction then < 1260088301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc < 1260089155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed. hours ago. remind me < 1260089179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyberspace. orcs. < 1260089193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes indeed < 1260089210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, I agree fully with the annotation < 1260089288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh and D&D was rather funny today < 1260089382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found it a bit grating, actually, pete being _too_ exaggerated < 1260089409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but well, i guess that's what you need to get jim to actually start noticing... < 1260089449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :opinions on mathematica after having spent some time playing around with it: incredibly buggy, three serious usability isssues, was possible to work around two of them. It also crashes a lot. < 1260089469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syntax is somewhat strange and I still haven't found out why function parameters need to end with _ < 1260089475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would not buy again. </ducks> < 1260089497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yeah, having to rotate a 3D plot to be able to see it is rather annoying < 1260089509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the one serious issue that I have not found any working workaround for < 1260089515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whoosh* < 1260089537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I decided to ignore that joke. xkcd reference right? < 1260089576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm xkcd used it (that bobcat thing), but i thought it was a meme... < 1260089602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for most simple purposes I have to say maxima with the wxmaxima frontend is as good and sometimes better. Definitely less buggy for a start. < 1260089617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh right. I'm no expert on memes < 1260089634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the joke was really about the fact you didn't actually buy it, as far as i have discerned < 1260089638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, bobcat? wasn't it the send cat through ebay? < 1260089654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, gift! < 1260089669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you _say_ so < 1260089680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting. < 1260089688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/325/ < 1260089703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260089712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, remembered it as "cat" < 1260089719 0 :lifthrasiir!i=daXp7mox@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260089727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html says "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language." < 1260089733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call that "a lie" < 1260089744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the wording is rather vague < 1260089751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you haven't noticed that about wolfram before? it's like he's famous for it < 1260089766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes I noticed it, but I hadn't realised the scope of it < 1260089805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh and I think he claimed mathematica was fast somewhere in the docs. and "highly optimising" or something < 1260089859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, taking a minute or so to compute NextPrime[800!] doesn't seem too bad. Probably not a representative example considering what I heard from ais and such < 1260089907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird (?) claimed mathematica _was_ fast as long as you only glued together things it knows well < 1260089921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that seems quite plausible < 1260089928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I assume you do have a copy? < 1260090009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1260090063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck i'm not sure i've ever tried it, the institute went with maple... < 1260090112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh btw the serious issues with workarounds: 1) Pressing AltGr inserts a space, work around by editing internal file, fix found in google groups archive. 2) Maxima was hogging CPU and waking up the laptop cpu around 14000 times per second (!), work around by replacing some library files with updated versions from wolfram: reduced to around 7000 times per second, chmod the java link stuff to be < 1260090112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-accessible got rid of the issue completely but as a side effect some features of the internal help system no longer works < 1260090159 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260090174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima? < 1260090184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about it? < 1260090189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260090191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo < 1260090195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meant mathematica < 1260090199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1260090214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima is a lot less buggy. for a start < 1260090221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\.// < 1260090270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's open source version of old macsyma, isn't it < 1260090297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the vax/vms system they had when i joined university had macsyma < 1260090389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html < 1260090396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah but development hasn't been standing still < 1260090412 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was really pointing out the open source part < 1260090421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which _should_ mean less bugs < 1260090443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1260090539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oerjan> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html <-- heh < 1260090615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that site uses almost unreadably small text however < 1260090633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my browser < 1260090641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IE 7) < 1260090648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er 8 < 1260090783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These Android fonts (available as a package directly) have a lot nicer monospace font; I get a pretty readable 99x19 term on the 3.5" screen. < 1260090785 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one can set a minimum text size in many rowsers < 1260090802 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wow < 1260090848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it, mac fonts (legally) on a non-mac < 1260090864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least that's what "resize" said the size is, haven't counted the chars. < 1260090912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of rows matches, probably columns too. < 1260090964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99x23 in the no-title-bar "fullscreen" mode. < 1260090968 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type a long line in vim? < 1260091070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, s/vim/emacs/ < 1260091111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it counts correctly; used cat to avoid the editor war. < 1260091325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now you're at war with PETA instead! < 1260091327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :P < 1260091334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, PETA? < 1260091346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define PETA < 1260091351 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Peta (PeTa, Peta) is a fictional character in the manga and anime series MÄR. He is a member of the Chess Pieces, the series main antagonists ... \ [22]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peta_(MÄR) \ * In physics and mathematics, peta- (symbol: P) is a prefix in the SI (system of units) denoting 1015, or 1,000,000,000,000,000. For < 1260091357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1260091362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google PETA < 1260091363 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PETA's animal rights campaigns include ending fur and leather use meat and dairy consumption fishing hunting trapping factory farming circuses bull fighting ... \ www.peta.org/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar < 1260091381 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but cat doesn't have a column count function! < 1260091449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((0123456789)S:^):^ < 1260091450 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123 ...too much output! < 1260091474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Wrote 30 chars, copy-pasted twice, then counted the remaining empty spots. < 1260091670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for some bus-catching. < 1260091907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you didn't answer, how did you do in mathemalympics < 1260091971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did answer. fairly mediocre < 1260091982 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you did < 1260091983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in below the 50% medal cutoff < 1260091990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathemalympics? < 1260092000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when was that? < 1260092008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :international math olympiad < 1260092030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1988 and 1989 < 1260092034 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh but international? < 1260092066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260092095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the national competition i got 3rd and 2nd place < 1260092102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Results 1 - 1 of 1 for mathemalympics. (0.08 seconds) < 1260092102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1260092104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wow < 1260092112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a special term for that < 1260092115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one hit on google < 1260092124 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cool < 1260092128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects spelling is wrong < 1260092140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh oklofok made it up afaik < 1260092145 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's "googlewhack", but that's for 2 words together < 1260092151 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i'd given a shit in the math competitions :| < 1260092153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, ah right < 1260092165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so what was the real name for it? < 1260092187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :international math(ematics) olympiad < 1260092197 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've probably told you my fun math competition stories? < 1260092224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ical < 1260092264 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internautical < 1260092441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be one where we are all put in a boat at sea, and have to solve math problems to escape < 1260092466 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260092468 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should do that! < 1260092498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe the other way around, not to get thrown out < 1260092513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear that's the popular way with these reality shows < 1260092652 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklofok < 1260092660 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when can i come live with you in finland? < 1260092705 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rather liked the maths olympiad when he did it. < 1260092720 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got to go to the summer school. < 1260092783 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: well wasn't i advertising an empty room just the other day... :D < 1260092818 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how're the immigration laws? < 1260092920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea really. significantly less strict than yours, i'd wager. < 1260093019 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about work, would i be able to manage without speaking whatever it is the natives speak? < 1260093051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much everyone speaks english here < 1260093109 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tbh i'm not sure you could live here, i mean i wouldn't mind, but my gf might (i suppose i could ask her though) < 1260093124 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you wouldn't speak english unless there was some reason to right? < 1260093144 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean do i speak english with finns? no, usually not < 1260093186 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natives speak finnish < 1260093562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those pesky natives < 1260093688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a way to tell google that "this word must appear in this page", because most hits I get is when selecting cached shows that "These terms only appear in links pointing to this page:" < 1260093703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all results are fairly irrelevant < 1260093714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been annoyed by that too < 1260093732 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think so, it doesn't work by words on the one page < 1260093747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm did prepending + help i don't quite recall if that worked < 1260093751 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there's no reason that couldn't be done as post processing so forget that < 1260093757 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah sometimes i wish google was a search engine < 1260093775 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't just try to read my mind < 1260093780 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and give me what i want < 1260093802 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok who said anything about mind reading < 1260093810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, prepending + seems to reduce the issue but not solve it completely < 1260093813 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did! < 1260093873 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok literal interpretation of that question misses the intended meaning < 1260093875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there is a google help page somewhere, i think i've seen links to it < 1260093907 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok I guess I was assuming you knew a bit about how google ranked pages < 1260093913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why google doesn't put it on their front page is beyond me < 1260093982 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260094018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait there it is < 1260094079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broken unicode in the norwegian version, not encouraging < 1260094133 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: all i need to know is they don't look for pages containing exactly what i write in the box. < 1260094163 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they do something close to that < 1260094206 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok dunno, what you were saying seemed kinda smug and sarcastic to me < 1260094216 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260094218 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1260094222 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it was < 1260094245 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google is big, obviously i'm allowed to bash them < 1260094266 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're funny < 1260094282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries the english version in the hope it is more up to date < 1260094387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects google turned evil quite some time back. Around the same time as sponsored links were introduced < 1260094404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's google in general, sure there are still parts that aren't evil < 1260094405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now < 1260094582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: a good example of what i mean by mind reading is they correct my typos, 99% of the time they just give me something i didn't want, because what i wanted was less popular than something that sounds similar. < 1260094607 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that sucks < 1260094622 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or s/99%/50%/, i haven't made statistics, just become annoyed ;) < 1260094649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's what adding + is supposed to disable, anyway < 1260094692 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and your superior arguments. < 1260094724 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if i have the time to press + everytime i search for something :d < 1260094740 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it in greasemonkey! < 1260094765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, + doesn't disable it in my experience always < 1260094777 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, take that! < 1260094874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to disable synonyms, it says < 1260094882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says nothing about links < 1260095052 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-127.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260095182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i cannot find any way to turn off links-only hits either < 1260095225 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamnit < 1260095230 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not nazi zombies < 1260095304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course nazi zombies < 1260095381 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260095390 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260095864 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: why do you search for so many things containing typos? < 1260095933 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260095959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not typos, they are just oppressed words < 1260095962 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260096236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :posix_madvise < 1260096237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you mean: posix_fadvise < 1260096238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example < 1260096242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both exist btw < 1260096336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ,aybe i just never typo accidentally, so all the corrections are always wong in my case? < 1260096554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION binks. < 1260096583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260096660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh ffs. I think wolfram just tried to claim mathematica somehow is the best programming language at handling name spaces < 1260096671 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And isn't it? < 1260096680 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard people claim mathematica is teh best language < 1260096705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i seem to detect some doubt about oklofok's perfection, there. repent, sinner! < 1260096709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, from looking at the docs it seems to provide a fairly bulky way to handle name spaces < 1260096715 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bulky? < 1260096721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd, correct < 1260096727 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning what ?????? < 1260096764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning it seems more complex and messy than it needs to be. For no gain. And that even C++ < 1260096773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++'s* namespaces seems better < 1260096787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let it be known that I'm no C++ lover at all < 1260096804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I positively detest C++ < 1260096821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least you aren't negative about it < 1260096827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1260096885 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. < 1260096968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION places eliezer yudkowsky in a black box, tells everyone it is an evil AI and not to let it out under any circumstances < 1260097010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION talks to the black box for two hours. < 1260097018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. <-- everything before "on" there seems like some other language than English < 1260097019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm convinced that I should open this box. < 1260097021 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does. < 1260097036 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260097043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was afraid of that < 1260097047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "uorygl" is a Lojban spelling of an English word. "sic" is an English word. < 1260097059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you mean as in [sic] ? < 1260097059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1260097062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1260097072 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's a verb, also spelled "sick". < 1260097073 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sic means to tell to attack < 1260097073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here i was trying to check if it was rot-N < 1260097091 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yarr i didn't realize it was ihope either < 1260097097 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before now < 1260097105 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.229.201 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260097112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I did that in a few seconds and found it unlikely < 1260097121 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whois would've told that tho, it seems < 1260097126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that i realized long ago < 1260097127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I also tried reverse < 1260097129 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you know < 1260097155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hi there < 1260097162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, how so? There is no ihope in it < 1260097164 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Eliezer" is a Biblical name meaning "God is help". As for "Yudkowsky", all I can tell is that it's an English proper noun meaning "Eliezer Yudkowsky". < 1260097175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:53 <oklofok> ehird: I wonder how draw() will do for more complex expressions. <<< actually it's pretty simple to do it, basically you just do dynamic programming on expressions, and for each, store the size of the bounding box for the pic, combining them is just a matter of trivial. < 1260097175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant how reasonable output will it give. < 1260097175 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everyone knows warrie is ihope < 1260097183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking about Yudkowsky's name? < 1260097189 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: kind of. < 1260097193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, sounds familiar < 1260097205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: < AnMaster> * uorygl sics Eliezer Yudkowsky on oerjan. <-- everything before "on" there seems like some other language than English < 1260097205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, logs! :P < 1260097205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260097207 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: great output. < 1260097226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: but you can't get smaller and smaller text w/ ascii < 1260097240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: -owsky is a pretty common slavic name suffix afaik < 1260097269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:14:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, your client uses : for what someone said? < 1260097269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:14:22 <AnMaster> it's confusing < 1260097269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does mine. < 1260097270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:15:02 <AnMaster> oklofok: because it is often used to address someone (like this, though I set my client to use , normally for tab completion) < 1260097270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ho ho, the primitive oklofok knows not the customs of IRC! < 1260097273 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, that's why you need to know the sizes of bounding boxes of subexpressions < 1260097283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's not actually the context I meant < 1260097293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant like in power towerzzz < 1260097315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird I'm forced to give you an award... < 1260097331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:20:39 <oklofok> ehird: Uh, why not? <<< because there is a countable amount of pairs like that, consider a base 257 number, each function can be considered a distinct number in that base => at most |N| functions < 1260097331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contexxzt? < 1260097339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260097345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about functions not being representable < 1260097354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense < 1260097363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the free variable < 1260097364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things < 1260097365 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arglist + expression is not enough to give you all functions < 1260097369 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really pretty obvious < 1260097388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expression can be arbitrarily big tho... < 1260097395 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it must be finite < 1260097399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1260097401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260097405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well recursion < 1260097406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1260097417 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about recursion < 1260097430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we including impossible functions here < 1260097431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursion doesn't change the fact that expressions are finite. < 1260097435 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260097438 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's an "impossible" function? < 1260097444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An uncomputable one? Definitely. < 1260097595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a meaningless one? :P < 1260097704 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1260097733 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's more functions than you can write down < 1260097744 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually a function can be definable without being computable < 1260097746 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you fix a countable language) < 1260097758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ofc < 1260097780 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: maybe ofc, but that was an answer to your question < 1260097785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260097789 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i see < 1260097807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the world < 1260097829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see so much more than that < 1260097834 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like space and stuff < 1260097901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the nested hilbert-hotel of concepts < 1260097924 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many computable functions are there? < 1260097926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(every room contains a hilbert hotel just as big as the main one, containing all the ideas and subhotels of related ideas) < 1260097929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: infinite < 1260097936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1260097938 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(say in infinitary lambda calculus) < 1260097943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = x+1 < 1260097945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = x+1-1 < 1260097947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = x+1-1+1 < 1260097948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1260097960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could argue that's two functions < 1260097979 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, in most definitions of a "computable function", there are aleph_0 of them. < 1260098003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable function restricted to the physical universe would be interesting < 1260098010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we don't know how dense we can pack information for a computer < 1260098014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1260098026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't know how fast we can compute (to avoid the death of the universe) < 1260098035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't know when the universe will die either :P < 1260098037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1260098039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about one that "did something useful" (of course you need to define that first) < 1260098048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does < 1260098070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, did, since we spent so much time thinking about it that the universe already died. < 1260098071 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl that's just some definition though, it's not necessarily the truth < 1260098102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no "truth". < 1260098110 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just about to say that < 1260098126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your incorrect philosophy of mathematics may lead you to believe that there is a real "truth" behind computable functions — which ONLY means their definition — but there is not. < 1260098145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computable functions mean what consensus defines them as; they are abstract concepts with no underlying truths. < 1260098183 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heil, mein fĂĽhrer < 1260098212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: wrong channel < 1260098216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1260098243 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought this was the one with the nazi zombies < 1260098261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. this channel still has some brains left. < 1260098272 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains? where? < 1260098274 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION drools < 1260098279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1260098285 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc rooms are kind of a sucky place to hunt. < 1260098304 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260098308 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260098313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: in math, definitions are the truth. < 1260098317 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood seems to be the only one even trying to get into physical contact with his prey < 1260098324 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1260098331 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, not so! Truth in undefiniable < 1260098336 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is* < 1260098348 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we know that pi is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter? It's defined that way. < 1260098351 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1260098366 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: you're a zombie, and you want to eat my brain < 1260098375 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh baby < 1260098384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are so busted < 1260098387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A statement is true in a theory if it holds for every model of that theory. < 1260098390 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it's a theorem of Tarski < 1260098396 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which theorem? < 1260098402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: that's just some definitions tarski made up < 1260098404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: not the truth! < 1260098430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/true/provable/, iirc < 1260098442 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true and provable are not synonymous < 1260098448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo thinking about true is usually pointless esp. since godel means, well, it's kinda inaccessible < 1260098456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think provable is a formal concept and true isn't, but that's just a hunch < 1260098460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but i think the tarski theorem is about provability? < 1260098487 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think something is a "logical consequence" or whatever if it holds for every model of the theory. < 1260098493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh isn't that godel's completeness theorem < 1260098503 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about godels theorem < 1260098542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they may be close nevertheless < 1260098564 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, remind me. Is there a Turing machine that halts in some models of ZFC but not others? < 1260098592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260098597 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Yeah, I think there is. Just add "the Turing machine halts" as an axiom. < 1260098624 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, if it's undecidible whether or not a turing machine halts: It does not halt < 1260098632 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true. < 1260098633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260098637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur momz < 1260098639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the new topic < 1260098646 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the axiom "the Turing machine halts" is okay to suffix < 1260098649 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, for some Turing machines that do not halt, ZFC + "that Turing machine halts" is consistent. < 1260098679 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a theory is consistent if and only if you can't prove a falsehood from it. < 1260098683 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1260098688 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway all this talk of turing machines just brings us back to cold hearted determinism, there's so much more < 1260098713 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260098718 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260098761 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear not all this again < 1260098780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: oh great, let me guess < 1260098786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free will exists because of quantum effects < 1260098787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i guess right < 1260098846 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1260098865 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260098905 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260098918 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1260098929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha the channel collectively grunts in disgust < 1260098953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, puzzlet's hop was just that annoying. < 1260099000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1260099005 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xxxxxxxxxxD < 1260099010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:30:22 <AnMaster> mathematica sure is buggy... like altgr inserting space. Found a fix on google groups for it. < 1260099010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to insert special characters, I recommend <esc>name<esc> < 1260099012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mathematica < 1260099028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inf, pi etc work < 1260099040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite pie < 1260099045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260099064 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chocolate pie? < 1260099084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's chocolate _somewhere_, it's infinite after all < 1260099090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: start of today's logs, people who don't use the axiom of choice upset me :P < 1260099094 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, no < 1260099096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, it could be uniform < 1260099104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a repeated tile < 1260099107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> to insert special characters, I recommend <esc>name<esc> < 1260099111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where is the fun in that < 1260099114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you forgot about Swedish keyboard < 1260099115 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260099120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I need altgr for [ and { < 1260099128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dude, remap that shit < 1260099128 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all sets of axioms should be used an equal amount < 1260099141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway the fix works, *shrug* < 1260099143 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the inconsistent ones? < 1260099143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply the axiom of choice to an infinite set of axioms < 1260099179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:50:49 <AnMaster> opinions on mathematica after having spent some time playing around with it: incredibly buggy, three serious usability isssues, was possible to work around two of them. It also crashes a lot. < 1260099180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:09 <AnMaster> Syntax is somewhat strange and I still haven't found out why function parameters need to end with _ < 1260099180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1260099183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f[foo] < 1260099190 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: well if they are hard to prove inconsistent, they can be interesting for a while < 1260099193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, means? < 1260099201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern matches on the symbol foo < 1260099201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a symbolic language < 1260099201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what are the usability issues? < 1260099210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah I see < 1260099225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they were mentioned below < 1260099226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit < 1260099234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some page or pages later < 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yeah, having to rotate a 3D plot to be able to see it is rather annoying < 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:49 <AnMaster> it is the one serious issue that I have not found any working workaround for < 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works in os x without rotating < 1260099235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:51:15 <oerjan> would not buy again. </ducks> < 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I decided to ignore that joke. xkcd reference right? < 1260099235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it predates the internet i believe < 1260099243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> works in os x without rotating < 1260099246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux specific bug < 1260099249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux of course is a fringe platform for mathematica < 1260099256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, intel graphics even < 1260099260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people are on windows or os x, or use maxima or axiom or w/e < 1260099278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, some intel chipset revisions only, only linux < 1260099280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah a bit rare < 1260099288 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima is horrible after getting used to mathematica's web interface < 1260099300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, web interface? You mean W|A? < 1260099311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely < 1260099312 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one of thhem < 1260099313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:54:40 <AnMaster> oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting. < 1260099313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's probably a malignant narcissist < 1260099315 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them < 1260099320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he definitely has a gigantic ego < 1260099325 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica has tons of web interfaces < 1260099329 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web faces < 1260099343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what about wxmaxima? < 1260099352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, better than the command line I have to say < 1260099353 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what that is < 1260099355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice even < 1260099362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, graphical frontend to maxima < 1260099373 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i have wxmaxima < 1260099377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the annoying one < 1260099379 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1260099393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WxMaxima_0.7.1_screenshot.png ? < 1260099404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism) < 1260099405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later versions are more like mathematica note book in style < 1260099428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, as in, you edit directly in the buffer rather than having an input line at the bottom < 1260099429 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260099433 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine does ascii rendering for instance < 1260099438 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's probably newer < 1260099440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: did you miss the talk about me musing about writing y own maxima/mathematica-alike? < 1260099448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, wow your has to be really old < 1260099450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you're using the command-line version, probably < 1260099454 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1260099456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, most of it yeah < 1260099503 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260099509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: features in a nutshell: *good* command-line interface with good ASCII art drawing of expressions, a simple syntax that matches mathematical notation quite closely, and some assorted other stuff < 1260099516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*writing my < 1260099545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and the ascii art drawing is optional, by default it'll display linear expressions, which is nice < 1260099571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mathematical notation is ambiguous without context. As in what does a d mean? dx/dy is probably different from ab+dc < 1260099583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:58:27 <oerjan> ehird (?) claimed mathematica _was_ fast as long as you only glued together things it knows well < 1260099583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 claimed it and i parroted based on my experience < 1260099608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dx/dy is dividing the variables dx and dy. ab+dc is adding ab and dc. for the former use the derivative function < 1260099615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the latter you mean a b + d c < 1260099619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (a b)+(d c), not sure < 1260099623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said close, but also simple < 1260099625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, dx/dy is probably a differentiation < 1260099627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and understandable < 1260099631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it diverts ofc < 1260099635 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no it isn't, not in my syntax < 1260099636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what you call it in English < 1260099652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I said "mathematical notation" < 1260099653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260099660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about < 1260099661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why did you state that to me? < 1260099666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "that matches mathematical notation quite closely" < 1260099670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quite closely" < 1260099673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious keyword. < 1260099710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about ascii art drawing, do you mean unicode or plain ASCII? < 1260099748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain ascii, unicode doesn't really help all that much for most of it < 1260099756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the layout engine will prolly have different backends < 1260099763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ascii, unicode, html etc < 1260099781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TeX...) < 1260099812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although the TeX will probably be quite low level as the layout engine will mostly result in things like "row, 2, row, line, row, 3" for 2/3) < 1260099858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to plot a function in the complex plane with mathemematica. 3D plot. x for real part, y for imaginary part (for the input value), And z for absolute value and colour for argument (for the output value) < 1260099876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been able to figure out the colour stuff < 1260099889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in doubt, type Plot3D, hit F1, and navigate the docs. There is a special function fofr complex numbers, I believe. < 1260099900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the documentation search is quite good. < 1260099903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"plot complex" might help. < 1260099934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1260099952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Here's something that'll make you go WTF: The documentation is a set of Mathematica notebooks. < 1260099962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The documentation for Plot3D is the same thing as your REPL. < 1260099978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can even shift-enter the examples from inside the docs.) < 1260100000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I did on reference.wolfram.com, since the built in docs requires java (except for basic ?Function stuff). And the java stuff is what causes the exessive wakeups and CPU hogging. Using built in docs slows down the computer so much that the mouse pointer take several seconds to react < 1260100033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The built in docs areer far superior. < 1260100034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest fixing the Java issue, it really is a lot more pleasant with the built-in doccs. < 1260100034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1260100056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh, and here's some fun functions — {Example,Country,Astronomical}Data < 1260100088 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope Mathematica doesn't need installation instructions. < 1260100091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1260100128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the java issue is known, and it is a mathematica bug, not a bug in java. Working fix not yet released. < 1260100133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You run a script and enter two paths. < 1260100134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this I found from googling < 1260100142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So work around it. < 1260100149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not heh; those functions really are fun. < 1260100157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, official workaround is chmod a-rx JLink < 1260100161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to disable the java stuff < 1260100162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260100198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do an unofficial workaround...? < 1260100214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, none found so far. at least as far as I have been able to find < 1260100225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried different jvms? < 1260100229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I did < 1260100243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, alright then. < 1260100257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New suggestion! Use my thing instead. < 1260100269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is some suggestion to downgrade kernel(!) to 2.6.27 or earlier, but that would break all sort of stuff. Like being able to boot my laptop iirc. < 1260100276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure, go code it first < 1260100378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Surely I should go design it first, being that it is a huge undertaking, involving not only the creation of a completely new, unconventional programming language that should be quite fast and yet has to be based around tree rewriting, the programming of complex and subtle algorithms as far down as basic algebra that nonetheless have to be optimised the shit out of, the programming of many, many mathematical and utility functions — that must run < 1260100378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efficiently, writing the drawing layout engine, ... < 1260100388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... but tons of other things too. < 1260100487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why based on tree rewriting? < 1260100502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what symbolic computation is. < 1260100547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically the only way to easily handle expressions involving numbers like pi and insanely big 'uns and still be able to manipulate and compare them efficiently and only evaluate them to arbitrary precision at the last step. < 1260100634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I think this plot just reinvented flower power or something < 1260100643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, want to see? < 1260100665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such patterns are not uncommon, but sure. < 1260100667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshot 'er up. < 1260100671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1260100675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Save a notebook and send it to me! < 1260100677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the expression is http://sprunge.us/QMhM < 1260100692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, those lines at the right side select various parts of the expression < 1260100709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That Function would be more idiomatically written with lambda syntax < 1260100717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1260100719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260100723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less copy and paste I guess < 1260100728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#+2)& → \x→x+2 < 1260100728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#+#2)& → \x,y→x+y < 1260100729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or you mean the colour one? < 1260100732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# is #1, #n is argument n < 1260100739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you postfix the expression with * < 1260100740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1260100741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with & < 1260100743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's weird < 1260100744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1260100759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I just based it on the examples at http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/ColorFunction.html < 1260100776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe it isn't more idiomatic, but it is shorter, and mathematica is tedious to write :P < 1260100786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also I didn't quite grook that syntax you just gave above < 1260100795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed it is tedious to write indeed < 1260100804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[19:57] ehird: btw, those lines at the right side select various parts of the expression < 1260100804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other tips: In and and Out actually are real arrays, you can access them in expressions; % means Out[last line], Mod+L recalls the last line, you can modify lines in place and re-evaluate them to replace them < 1260100810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway what do you think of the result of that plot? < 1260100824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION evaluates that < 1260100835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nifty eh? < 1260100849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who spiked my drink? < 1260100858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, XD < 1260100860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1260100863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway, to explain: < 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By == I just mean is equivalent; they aren't technically equal, but they behave identically < 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(# + 2) & == Function[x, x + 2] < 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(# + 2 * #2) & == Function[{x, y}, x + 2 * y] < 1260100904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits < 1260100904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1260100916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...) & is a lambda, # is the first argument, #1 is too, #n is argument n < 1260100931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err okay < 1260100977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how does this call Hue, Sin and Arg? < 1260100978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: To explain: Mathematica has postfix operators. Yes, you read that right. That's how 3! works. < 1260100983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 3 !. < 1260100991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Umm... the body of a lambda is just an expression. < 1260100994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that makes perfect sense < 1260100996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How on earth is this confusing to you? < 1260101012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your ColorFunction would be written as: < 1260101029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably define f to be the function I'm plotting or something < 1260101032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hue[Arg[2 (# + I*#2)^3 - ...]) & < 1260101041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF are you confused about? < 1260101041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like f[re_, im_] := ... < 1260101043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just lambda syntax. < 1260101050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ?????? < 1260101053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well okay < 1260101054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1260101060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you use expressions inline with Plot3D. < 1260101067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1260101075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't define a function unless you need to, and if you must use PlotFunction. < 1260101077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code duplication, can't be having with that < 1260101080 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260101087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you use it more than once? So you do. < 1260101092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think there is a way to simplify this. < 1260101097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that there is no duplication. < 1260101100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, use PlotFunction and co. < 1260101103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1260101111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No search results for PlotFunction < 1260101111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1260101114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260101117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme try and find it < 1260101125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, nope < 1260101126 0 :boily!n=boily@poste30-170.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260101127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just call the function then < 1260101179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, who knows. < 1260101236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well defining a function then using it in Plot3D seems to work < 1260101243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe PlotFunction was for older versions? < 1260101314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it let you actually do < 1260101321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PlotFunction[f, {10, 50}] < 1260101321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1260101323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be imagining it < 1260101325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably am. < 1260101365 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260101366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there is a parametric 3D plot < 1260101387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right click → Copy As → LaTeX. < 1260101389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1260101393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean to address that to you. < 1260101395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just noting a fun thing. < 1260101407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I noticed that before < 1260101429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\frac{1}{2} < 1260101431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, that works. < 1260101445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yet mathematica claims to have uniquely superior state of the art math type setting < 1260101453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certain I saw that somewhere < 1260101460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Mathematica's TraditionalForm output is very nice. < 1260101471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(try TraditionalForm[Hold[some expression]]) < 1260101500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can even interpret a subset of TraditionalForm's output. < 1260101503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of Tra < 1260101505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid spces < 1260101506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/RegionPlot3D.html <-- nice < 1260101508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spaces < 1260101550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, stupid letters < 1260101570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, RegionPlot3D[x y z < 1, {x, -5, 5}, {y, -5, 5}, {z, -5, 5}, < 1260101570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PlotStyle -> Directive[Yellow, Opacity[0.5]], Mesh -> None] is pretty. < 1260101573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that page < 1260101585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently that's \text{RegionPlot3D}[x y z<1,\{x,-5,5\},\{y,-5,5\},\{z,-5,5\},\text{PlotStyle}\to \text{Directive}[\text{Yellow},\text{Opacity}[0.5]],\text{Mesh}\to \text{None}] in LaTeX. < 1260101586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260101613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I don't quite think that is true < 1260101654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is. < 1260101655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess it depends, I don't think the Plot commands does have any good translations < 1260101664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's copying the formula itself. < 1260101674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it should generate pstricks commands XD < 1260101676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not TeX that evaluates the formula. < 1260101692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it's just like how it'll give you 2+2 instead of \horriblemacromagic{add}{2}{2}. < 1260101697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it should show as 2+2, not 4. < 1260101704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1260101710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeXForm::unspt: TeXForm of Graphics3DBox[<<1>>,<<7>>,ViewVertical->{-0.210506,0.583037,0.784701}] is not supported. >> < 1260101718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. Gimme a LaTeX version of the plot itself! :P < 1260101758 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260101803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, wolfram is a narcissist but that's mostly the documentation's fault, usually the actual meat is good, if slow and buggy < 1260101807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well that is non-trivial. Did you want it as an asymptote graph? Or pstricks? Or something else? < 1260101818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram mostly sits around, mathematica isn't really his these days < 1260101834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I want it rotatable in the output pdf, clearly. < 1260101834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, he still write the docs? < 1260101844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adobe recently added Flash embedding to pdfs... < 1260101849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1260101850 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a C→ActionScript converter... < 1260101853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260101854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Mathematica is mostly C... < 1260101857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you see where I'm going? XD < 1260101860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1260101865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I'm afraid so < 1260101870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what? C→ActionScript? < 1260101873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously? < 1260101880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's called Alchemy < 1260101886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Flash port of Doom < 1260101891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With it < 1260101894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/470460 < 1260101916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Recompiled from the original sources by Mike, using Alchemy! Thanks Adobe!" < 1260101923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that much of a port, then. < 1260101934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, try changing the range to -Pi/Pi in the "Who spiked my drink" plot < 1260101938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something strange happens < 1260101945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be exact, a strange message < 1260101947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repaste the expression? < 1260101979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power:indet:Indeterminate expression (0.+0.ii)^(0+0.ii) encountered < 1260101982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be exact < 1260101997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those i are stylised ones < 1260102000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paste the expression and I'll diagnose. < 1260102004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1260102047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, http://sprunge.us/FUaa < 1260102059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:03:34 <AnMaster> maxima is a lot less buggy. for a start < 1260102059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, and a lot less featureful :) maxima is alright, but it doesn't cover everything mathematica does < 1260102071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course < 1260102100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw how do you zoom in on a part of a plot in mathematica? < 1260102100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: when you see an error click the >> next to it < 1260102104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that opens in the built-in docs though, ha. < 1260102111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there are no >> there? < 1260102124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screenshot. < 1260102131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1260102147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sec < 1260102163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's shortcuts; shift-drag moves the image, alt-drag i think zooms < 1260102181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah here we go < 1260102181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drag \[LongDash] interactively rotate a 3D graphic < 1260102184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shift+Drag \[LongDash] zoom a 3D graphic < 1260102188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl+Drag \[LongDash] pan a 3D graphic < 1260102195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematica provides real-time view control for all 3D graphics, wherever they may appear in a document. Mathematica's advanced human interface device system also automatically supports joystick and gamepad 3D graphics control, with special features available on the Wolfram Research 2+12 degree-of-freedom gamepad." < 1260102198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, they have a gamepad. < 1260102210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw for me shift-drag isn't zoom i guess ymmv < 1260102226 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260102227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you zoom in you can see a white patch where the graph was cut < 1260102233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the effects of the Poewr::indet error < 1260102243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Power < 1260102246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's < 1260102250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This arithmetic corresponds to multiplying zero and infinity:" < 1260102252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260102254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power means it happened when doing a power < 1260102259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean the "slit" in the middle? < 1260102264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression is, removing the immaginary part, 0^0 < 1260102266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was there in the smaller version too < 1260102267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work it out. < 1260102272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, yes. < 1260102276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can see it more clearly zoomed in. < 1260102280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the warning wasn't there then < 1260102294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr your plotting function does 0^0 at one point < 1260102307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix it < 1260102326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260102329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1260102335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :::indet means that the expression is indeterminate < 1260102338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's intended, it isn't well defined over the whole range < 1260102344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 1/0 < 1260102345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function doesn't have to be < 1260102348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the like < 1260102354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But you told Plot3D to plot over that range. < 1260102362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, screenshot you asked for http://omploader.org/vMnhpbg < 1260102370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So add a safe guard. < 1260102380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Huh. I guess Qt Mathematica is just neglected :P < 1260102388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, argh! Turn the anntialiasing up to full in the settings! < 1260102395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes and? If there are asymptotes I may still want to plot over that range < 1260102401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appearance → Graphics → Highest Quality < 1260102411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you can'tt compute the value for that point, you can't plot that point. Simple as. < 1260102443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that setting makes no difference < 1260102448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame shitty intel graphics < 1260102455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you have to reevaluate an expression < 1260102457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even restart mathematica < 1260102524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, none of those changed it < 1260102541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told you to go with the ati graphics < 1260102546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did you listen ohhh no :) < 1260102559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ati graphics were reported to have power usage issues too < 1260102570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely not at low load. < 1260102578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares anyway, you get like 2 hours of battery anyway < 1260102581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's near-useless < 1260102581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, at suspend to ram < 1260102583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1260102597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from what I heard, the open source drivers are still buggy for ati < 1260102600 0 :cal153!n=cal@12.130.118.25 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260102638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> Shift+Drag \[LongDash] zoom a 3D graphic < 1260102638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> Ctrl+Drag \[LongDash] pan a 3D graphic < 1260102640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason < 1260102641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, they are, but ati have released specifications freely < 1260102643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are reversed for me < 1260102655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so using their closed-source drivers temporarily isn't some huge moral issue :P < 1260102657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ditto < 1260102667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :documentation bug? < 1260102679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, their closed source drivers are worse < 1260102681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever used them? < 1260102689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a supported card, fglrx is nice. < 1260102689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did during one point < 1260102691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some years ago < 1260102698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A supported, recent card, that is. < 1260102700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fglrx crashed and froze all the time < 1260102705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Some years ago, yes. < 1260102707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to use reset button a lot < 1260102716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays, they're competitive with nvidia's proprietary drivers, which are nice. < 1260102737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe this... mathematica only provides one level of undo < 1260102858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what sense? < 1260102920 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260103106 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-69-52.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260103202 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260103223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, most programs provide more < 1260103225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1260103229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most non-trivial ones < 1260103233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, in the text entry field. < 1260103238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just backspace, usually. < 1260103258 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed my character's back-story, I think?? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt < 1260103318 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to see the true power of Icoruma, look at spells.irm < 1260103364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, would want to undo last operation, say, rotating a graph < 1260103370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or zooming something < 1260103378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can reset that by right-clicking and choosing an option, I think. < 1260103379 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should read the log < 1260103381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even evaluating an expression < 1260103549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: highlight the result line and delete it. < 1260103576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what if I was re-evaluating over an old result? < 1260103581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"don't do that then" right < 1260103600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What about it? < 1260103605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing that is perfectly kosher. < 1260103729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "<ehird> AnMaster: highlight the result line and delete it." < 1260103732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't work then < 1260103747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1260103754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, return the evaluatation? < 1260103756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*evaluation < 1260103764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260103777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, don't overwrite if you don't want to overwrite. < 1260103808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, realised that too late? well sure, you can be extra careful and such, still a bit irritating < 1260103831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use Mod+L to try out new ideas. < 1260103833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ctrl, maybe.) < 1260103835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or alt.) < 1260103836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cmd on OS X.) < 1260103888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctrl < 1260103928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, can't test now, laptop turned off and in backpack for tomorrow, cya going to sleep soon (will probably return for a short bit in 0.5-1 hour or so) < 1260103961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what kind of sleep is that < 1260104021 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :powerman? < 1260104247 0 :OxE6!n=mu@adsl-248-90-214.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260104298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no AnMaster is just bad at self-control < 1260104356 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi 230 < 1260104378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: HEY i object to offering that room to bsmntbombdood, i'm reserving that shit < 1260104380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260104400 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes to use quote-marks when quoting people < 1260104412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't quote anyone < 1260104417 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1260104421 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1260104422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i couldn't live in finland anyway it has mandatory military service < 1260104442 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""ACTION likes to use quote-marks when quoting people""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" < 1260104477 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you get ACTION from? < 1260104488 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The screen. < 1260104491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"/me" < 1260104505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:13:07 * AnMaster suspects google turned evil quite some time back. Around the same time as sponsored links were introduced < 1260104505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, advertising! It's so unusual for a capitalist company to be capitalist. < 1260104521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicking on a sponsored link shortens your lifespan by 5 years, you know. EVIL < 1260104526 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that /me is transmitted using "ACTION" and some magic char, but I don't know what kind of IRC client would actually show you that string "ACTION" < 1260104542 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHIRC does < 1260104555 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it displays it in red (normal messages are in blue) < 1260104575 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1260104577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHIRC being zzo38's own client. < 1260104583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Written in PHP, for the command-line, I believe. < 1260104586 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is < 1260104594 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is written to be used with PuTTY < 1260104595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just, uh, leave it at that, yeah. < 1260104697 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in what way is it specially adapted for PuTTY? < 1260104705 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how many users do yuo have? ;-) < 1260104711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: have you ever *used* cmd.exe? < 1260104718 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if anyone else other than me have used it < 1260104728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this is the guy who has said he'll switch to linux when he needs to buy a new computer, but he'll make it entirely from scratch < 1260104735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'll bet uh < 1260104736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 user < 1260104752 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not entirely from scratch, but more from scratch than most distributions < 1260104754 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what does cmd.exe have to do with this? < 1260104761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putty vs cmd.exe < 1260104768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a terminal < 1260104770 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmd.exe is the Windows command-line < 1260104773 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260104791 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows console window doesn't support the ANSI/VT/XTERM terminal codes < 1260104813 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PuTTY supplies its own terminal emulator < 1260104835 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because PuTTY's terminal emulator supports the codes I used. < 1260104880 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PuTTY also supports the codes that irssi etc use < 1260104889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but zzo38 didn't write irssi. < 1260104909 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FreeGeek has terminals for Linux, and I have some troubles to run it on there using Xterm or the other ones < 1260104914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use irssi < 1260104925 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! I see what zzo38 means now I think... < 1260104937 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote my own because I didn't like some things in other IRC client so I decided to write my own to make it the way I wanted it to be < 1260104968 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is on windows, and he wrote an IRC client for use within PuTTY as opposed to for fur use within the windows CLI? < 1260104983 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a screen-shot if you want to see: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/IRC-strange-characters.png < 1260104996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: yes. < 1260104998 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, and there's another screen-shot: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/screenshot0.png < 1260104998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In PHP. < 1260105072 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even know that PHP did CLI stuff < 1260105088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: It does ... painfully... < 1260105100 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the display format seems to be quite close to the IRC protocol < 1260105102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: It is, of course, a hideous abuse. < 1260105111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite close — you mean, identical. < 1260105133 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it get confusing if you are on 20 channels? < 1260105162 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP does do CLI stuff. And some programs, such as FurryScript, are a CLI program and then other PHP program can include it in a HTML form < 1260105170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is only in here < 1260105194 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yes it can get confusing on 20 channels if you use that many channels on the same server at once!! < 1260105202 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 must be the re-incarnation of Chuck Moore or something < 1260105208 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't ever use that many channels at once, not even on separate servers < 1260105215 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260105248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Hey, Chuck Moore used a *decent* language. :) < 1260105256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, can an alive person really be reincarnated? < 1260105263 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1260105271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuck Moore, O, I did write Forth interpreters, and some programs in some Forth systems too. < 1260105285 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put a Forth interpreter in MegaZeux, and I wrote a program for writing GameBoy programs in Gforth < 1260105344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be fun to work for Chuck Moore's company. I wonder if his odd manner of speech is the same in person. < 1260105457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> AnMaster: what kind of sleep is that <-- taking a shower before < 1260105462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was what I did < 1260105514 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I was thinking more about the willingness to put lots of effort into replacing huge existing bits of software with stuff you wrote yourself < 1260105539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think syntax-highlighting IRC really takes *that* much code... < 1260105554 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, exactly < 1260105566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what would it syntax highlight on? < 1260105578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :embedded code examples? < 1260105579 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his software does what he needs with way less code than ordinary irc clients < 1260105580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.06 < 1260105582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or IRC itself < 1260105591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh logs < 1260105592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260105595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: yes, but i contend that the simple code involved isn't that much effort < 1260105598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that should be simple < 1260105602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a regex even < 1260105613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :match date <nick> data < 1260105617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260105619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1260105620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i meantt < 1260105626 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the F. logs < 1260105630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see what we're talking about < 1260105631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: his fork of Conkeror with ... green tabs, and rewritten gopher support with a scripting language... that's probably a better example < 1260105635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few more lines to handle join/part/quit and /me < 1260105658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're rambling about an irrelevant thing. < 1260105665 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah, not that much effort < 1260105691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(his fork's at http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/; i'll leave that root link there because it's fun trying to figure out where the page is) < 1260105692 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: where do you find the time to write all that sort of stuff? < 1260105708 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: I don't know < 1260105738 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it not actually take that much time < 1260105789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can try to figure out < 1260105829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah you mean highlighting the protocol itself yes < 1260106054 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260106075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone tell that guy it's 0x < 1260106123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> also, can an alive person really be reincarnated? <-- i've read claims to that effect. after all in some spiritual traditions, time is an illusion as is the individual < 1260106136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*, as < 1260106162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to say "yes, but that's just unsubstantiated bullshit". then i realised we were talking about reincarnation < 1260106164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, invalid in nicks though < 1260106171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're invalid in nicks. < 1260106177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260106184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so is your mom < 1260106346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : int width_times_height_minus_one = width * (height - 1); < 1260106347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—actual C code < 1260106363 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what program? < 1260106380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A really terribly-written one, clearly. < 1260106391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/raw/1703757 < 1260106423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrrrgh. < 1260106462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... not only is the name hideously verbose, not descriptive and much longer than the actual expression, it's an expression that has near NO cost. < 1260106481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what is the program? What program is this function part of? < 1260106486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "int * map", way to have the disadvantages of "int* map" while still looking weird. < 1260106496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the entire "program" < 1260106510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abh84/the_1717_challenge/c0grbec < 1260106510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :includes link for what it's for < 1260106517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/abh84/the_1717_challenge/c0grssk counterpoint — a really concise J version < 1260106523 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer like "int*map" instead of "int * map" < 1260106554 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes program in C, I added codes into MegaZeux in C < 1260106596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh that is just as bad < 1260106597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int *map < 1260106601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I would write < 1260106619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int*map is alright since the * is almost like a space, but I would write int *map too. < 1260106622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so you write int*map,*foo; < 1260106628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks plain weird < 1260106631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I omit spaces almost always. < 1260106640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int *map, *foo; < 1260106641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1260106644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. i'd write x=(y*z)/f; instead of x = (y * z) / f; < 1260106648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/)/ < 1260106656 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I never declare multiple pointers on the same line, and I also never declare pointers and non-pointers on the same line < 1260106660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if(x) instead of if (x) < 1260106665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if(x){ instead of if (x) { < 1260106668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd generally write int *map, as well. For such is what the good Lords of C, K&R intended. < 1260106673 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write like: if(x) { < 1260106675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i do add whitespace in places that others don't < 1260106677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1260106682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int < 1260106682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(...) < 1260106682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1260106687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you can grep for ^foo( < 1260106700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: k&r is obsolete, plan 9 c is the amended k&r style! :-P < 1260106709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is, uh, identical to what I just said) < 1260106721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Plan 9 C is also acceptable. It offends not. < 1260106766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferring K&R over Plan 9 C is like, um, only reading the KJV! As opposed to some other bible that is. Not as opposed to no bible. Also only the Christian bible. < 1260106766 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it confusing to see "int *map=something;" so that's why I omit the space. < 1260106770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was tenuous. < 1260106779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I find that quite readable. < 1260106787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The value assigned is bound tightly to the variable. < 1260106798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a=3, b=4, c=5; is nice and readable. < 1260106810 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is confusing because it is the value of the variable called "map" not the value of the variable called "*map" at first < 1260106813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a = 3, b = 4, c = 5; makes it harder to distinguish each definition, so I omit the spaces. < 1260106814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about int a,b,c;\na=b=c=3; < 1260106816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1260106821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That's true. < 1260106834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doesn't int a=b=c=3; work? < 1260106837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no < 1260106838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should :P < 1260106843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how could it? < 1260106845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'd write it as either < 1260106856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a,b,c; < 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=b=c=3; < 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int a, b, c; < 1260106857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=b=c=3; < 1260106858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on how i felt. < 1260106861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the names were longer, probably the latter. < 1260106861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last time I wrote C code it was like that first prototype J interpreter. Incredibly dense and macroy, all functions fitting on 1 line. < 1260106870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're literally a, b and c I would write it without the spaces. < 1260106877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't make functions fit on one line :P < 1260106882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just try to make my code reasonably readable when it comes to spacing < 1260106891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the int *foo thing < 1260106898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've read your code and find it to have too many spaces to read nicely. < 1260106909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spaces are meant to separate; when you put them around everything, it's like a linear blob of mud. < 1260106909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, different taste *shrug* < 1260106915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, each operator looks sparkly and pretty. < 1260106922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's disconnected, floating away from the relevant operandss. < 1260106924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*operands < 1260106928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, newly washed and hand polished! < 1260106929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1260106938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to do i++; not i ++ < 1260106940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260106946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ++ ; < 1260106951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260106953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So, you're inconsistent too? Whoopy < 1260106959 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 i +! < 1260106961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even K&R C omitted quite a lot of spaces, btw. < 1260106964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well sure, if it is for readability < 1260106974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd never catch "a = (b * c) / f;" being written by them. < 1260106979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why should I care about K&R? I mostly write the code to be readable by myself < 1260106979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "a = (b*c)/f;" at most. < 1260106994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a lot of people who write in such a hideous over-spaced style claim to write in K&R style. < 1260106999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm more offended by the redundant brackets than the whitespace :-P < 1260107001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about a = ( b * c ) / f ; < 1260107007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeargh) < 1260107030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In my opinion, b*c/f is easily parsed as both b*(c/f) and (b*c)/f. < 1260107046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your opinion is poor < 1260107048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, */+- have easy to remember well defined ordering < 1260107058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other operators may be harder to remember < 1260107059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't want to remember it, it's arbitray. < 1260107061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*arbitrary. < 1260107070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is standard math practise < 1260107079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't mathematics. < 1260107080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :practice* < 1260107097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, those are math expressions. And? < 1260107103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they are not. < 1260107112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1260107118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, a+b > a can be true. < 1260107119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1260107121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a+b < a < 1260107121 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260107124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a+b < b < 1260107129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all sorts of things < 1260107157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rule to use with parentheses, IMO, is to use them when the order of operations could reasonably be misunderstood. < 1260107175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that (a*b)/f is one of those cases. < 1260107179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As would I. < 1260107188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I would disagree < 1260107195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < I would agree however < 1260107206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1260107217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find the (a*b)/f irritating < 1260107221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with either < 1260107223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why I chose f for that variable. < 1260107226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably write both < 1260107236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also like to note that it only makes a difference with integer arithmetic as done in most programming languages, and not on the reals... < 1260107239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoo. < 1260107252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1260107262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's a disagreement about whether it was ambiguous between two people who don't think the other is *completely* insane, then it's ambiguous. < 1260107266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a*(b/f) = (a*b)/f in "real math". < 1260107269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes a difference with floating-point arithmetic as well < 1260107279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also true. < 1260107284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A float is definitely not a real. < 1260107293 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true < 1260107293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes indeed < 1260107305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just couldn't parse the English there < 1260107328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too tired < 1260107821 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260108107 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260108401 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260108406 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260108820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rewrites his sconvert utility in haskell < 1260108840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell for vertical scones < 1260108855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Storage Convert. :P < 1260108941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1260108960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=231 < 1260109114 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260109694 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260109908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260110396 0 :nate!n=nate@unaffiliated/nate JOIN :#esoteric < 1260110433 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260110446 0 :nate!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I get assistance here on brainfuck code? < 1260110865 0 :nate!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260112132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you're patient. < 1260112408 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260112671 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, better Nate than Lever! < 1260112678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1260112678 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :</looooooongjonke> < 1260112689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent half an hour reading that joke and at the end I was "..." for about as long < 1260112706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't get me wrong, it was an enjoyable story < 1260112710 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is traditional to put a small novel-worth of shaggy dog story before that pun < 1260112716 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you too < 1260112732 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only works in American < 1260112747 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lever" and "never" don't rhyme in English < 1260112762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, my brain adjusted for it < 1260112770 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1260112776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as soon as I read "better Nate than" my brain went into RHYME AT ALL COSTS mode < 1260112821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be fun to have a novel of Finnegans Wake length that all builds up to one terrible pun < 1260112828 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls the guy that didn't realise you could be in more than one IRC channel at once < 1260112835 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: aye < 1260112861 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would need to be written "properly", otherwise people wouldn't stick at it long enough < 1260112872 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, so it actually worked without the pun < 1260112891 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, then the editor would cut the pun at the end as ruining the whole tone of the book < 1260112919 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the whole thing was suficiently surreal, when you might get away with just hinting at it < 1260112932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :publish it on the internet, have a hardcopy on lulu, and solicit donations. you'll get very little money and little exposure, but it's free :P < 1260112935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no editors < 1260112957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: maybe the book could turn into a book about writing the book gradually < 1260112971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so the ending pun could be mentioned as a pun you were *going* to add < 1260112978 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260112994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all the characters laugh, for which there is no explanation < 1260113113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just reminding me that i have a semi-decent idea for an AI short story and no writing talent, topic change time! < 1260113158 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AI"? < 1260113167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :artificial intelligence < 1260113180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AI short story" is confusing, agreed < 1260113199 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define < 1260113256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a short story concerning an artificial intelligence (or indeed many); subgenre of scifi < 1260113264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beyond that, I'm sure you own a dictionary :-P < 1260113281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if i wanted to be specific it'd technically about the singularity < 1260113293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but beyond that there starts to be a fine line between a specific genre and the actual story :P < 1260113365 0 :OxE6!n=mu@adsl-248-90-214.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260113381 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1260113388 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OxE6: s/O/0/ < 1260113391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you think i meant? < 1260113393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: i said that earlier < 1260113395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not valid on irc < 1260113594 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ah, ok < 1260113805 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this is the best I can do on irc unfortunately :( < 1260114967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OxE6: {0xE6} < 1260114972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evaluates to 0x56 in all good languages! < 1260114975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1260114978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0xE6 < 1260115026 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260115028 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ < 1260115031 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1260115131 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260115205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More people should use SI prefixes on currency! < 1260115214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 million dollars? Pah! 1 M$, methinks! < 1260115248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 billion? 1 G$! < 1260115255 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260115273 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people already say megabucks < 1260115273 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260115273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if you have 10^21 bucks, well that'd be 1 Z$. < 1260115287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Yes, but they never say M$! < 1260115295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always 1M $. < 1260115297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor do they progress past M! < 1260115302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gigadollar sounds so cool. < 1260115315 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.21 JIGGAWATTS! < 1260115317 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used megametres a lot back in school < 1260115365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people would say 1,000 km :P < 1260115375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Ym = really fucking long < 1260115382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z is the best prefix though. < 1260115384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's a bloody Z. < 1260115469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I think furlong/firkin/fortnight is the best system of measurements. < 1260115472 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps attoparsecs, too. < 1260115533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :60 km/h is 100 kilofurlongs per fortnight (100 kfl/fn). The more you know. < 1260115712 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260115713 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about beard seconds? :D < 1260115728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SECONDS ARE A HERETICAL UNIT OF MEASUREMENT! < 1260115741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My only qualm with the furlong/firkin/fortnight system is that it uses SI prefixes. < 1260115754 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_humorous_units_of_measurement#Beard-second < 1260115766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1260115775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beardseconds are necessarily related to seconds. < 1260115784 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260115798 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what measurements of time are "good" then? < 1260115845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. It'd be fun to devise an entirely new system of measurements. < 1260115851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, a smoot might be a good base. < 1260115892 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"going back to my dorm" < 1260115900 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im surprised an article this awesome has survived the rampaging wikicops and deletionists < 1260115920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Philosophers talking about Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarianism sometimes use the conceptual unit of the Hedon to describe the amount of pleasure, equivalent to the amount of pleasure a person receives from gaining one util of utility." < 1260115930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's utilon, bitches! < 1260115932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yudkowsky says so. < 1260115966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hedon vs util(on) reminds me of watt vs joule < 1260116073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anyone's formalised Utilitarianism (given black boxes to deal with fiddly ill-defined human matters) < 1260116336 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260116649 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, cinnamon peppermint soda. < 1260116748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: send me a bottle. < 1260116752 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260116757 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Send yourself a bottle! < 1260116772 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260116776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a word! conceviances, n. that which is conceived. misconceviances, n. that which is misconceived. < 1260116788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both are excellent words to describe: ideas; children. < 1260116789 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in a bunch of cases sure < 1260116796 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually in terms of monetary compensation though < 1260116806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't see utilitarianism as being economic < 1260116817 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like did you never see one of those industrial-injury payout tables < 1260116824 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lost digit gets you such-and-such < 1260116827 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lost limb is worth this < 1260116841 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lost eye is worth another amount < 1260116848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more about physical pain than the more lofty hedonism of utilitarianism, imo < 1260116855 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1260116860 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about dismemberment, not pain < 1260116872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you know what i mean < 1260116875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about physical injuries < 1260116884 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for example, the loss of a right hand is more than the loss of a left hand (mutatis mutandis) < 1260116890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :utilitarianism is mostly about intellectual achievement < 1260116896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: that's leftist! :P < 1260116902 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence mutatis mutandis < 1260116909 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't just break out in latin for no reason >:| < 1260116990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where as I do! Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. < 1260117057 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260117183 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260117340 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260119293 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :poiuy_qwert < 1260119564 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260123242 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-3.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260123888 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260125574 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260125729 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260126214 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260128988 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260129356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260130639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Network is unreachable < 1260133360 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260133957 0 :mu!n=mu@wl01-copier-103a.dc.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260133965 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260135221 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260135222 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-15.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260135230 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260136695 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260136758 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260139042 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260139826 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260141079 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260141085 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260141239 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260141788 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260141929 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260141934 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260142411 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260142682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<SimonRC> ah, well, better Nate than Lever! <-- I did get the joke in the first context (of that nick) but what on earth was the stuff about the dog story about? < 1260142820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> Perhaps attoparsecs, too. <-- that works out to.. uh... 3 cm or such? < 1260142858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to google, 3.09 < 1260142893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> Dunno. It'd be fun to devise an entirely new system of measurements. <-- centifortnight? < 1260143036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, units(1) claim 3.0856776 < 1260143051 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was rounding < 1260143062 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Planck units > all < 1260143069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually gussed it would work out to "less than a meter, more than a millimeter" before checking) < 1260143342 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260143572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1260144642 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260145876 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260146665 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260147661 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260147661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260147662 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260147669 0 :Ilari!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260150440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260151887 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260162232 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260162797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi there < 1260162800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any good at sql? < 1260162810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting some strange behaviour here that I'm unable to explain < 1260162828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm not particularly good at SQL < 1260162858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah so know any issues with ((a full join b on ...) left join c on ...) ? < 1260162871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the outer one is behaving as a full join for unknown reason < 1260162874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that that looks like a pain to optimise? < 1260162907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, this isn't meant to run fast, it is a off by one thing to verify stuff before fixing normalising in this exercise < 1260162918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the nested join query is not in the exercise itself < 1260162941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just try to work out if this is reasonable < 1260163223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay it seems to be a bug. But I have a much more recent version than when it should have been fixed < 1260163535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs. sqlite doesn't support right/full outer joins < 1260163538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can't check with that < 1260163950 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260164253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you think syntax errors should be deterministic? < 1260164263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the language < 1260164267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, SQL < 1260164275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's close enough to INTERCAL, so why bother < 1260164291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I'm getting random syntax errors once in a while, re-executing the query seems to work < 1260164301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like an interp bug < 1260164310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, postgresql-8.4 < 1260164480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it could be in the frontend though < 1260164485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not using the command line tool < 1260164489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is pretty rare < 1260164500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, clog is back < 1260164509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that full/left bug seems to actually have been correct. It was incorrect in the other dbms instead < 1260164644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the Google "did you mean" thing keeps backfiring on me because I mostly use it for esolang searches < 1260164651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where what it thinks is a misspelling is actually what I meant < 1260164656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no real problem, though, it's just an extra click < 1260164697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there seems to be a euro sign in clog's mojibake logs; strange choice of encoding to generate the mojibake in... < 1260165045 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1260165151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:04:20 <ehird> nested: A[X][Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y] < 1260165153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:04:21 <ehird> | {A[X]:nested}[Y] = A[(X*(sizeof A / sizeof A[0]))+Y] < 1260165157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where is the mojibake? < 1260165159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to think of a way to get that to parse as valid Perl < 1260165162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a couple of days ago < 1260165177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly it shows for me and not you, mojibake tends to do that sort of thing < 1260165188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, link to log in question? < 1260165191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what line < 1260165196 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not now, I'm busy < 1260165197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to grep for i mean < 1260165203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try grepping for € < 1260165207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260165220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or failing that, "Bing as Search Engine Provider" < 1260165234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the 09.12.05 logs < 1260165296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"bing" sounds so silly < 1260165333 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-8-12.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260165407 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260165644 0 :ais523_!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-tlxaduvqxrhvkybv JOIN :#esoteric < 1260166902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260167117 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260167650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, make help: assuming I have a variable like: DIAGRAMS = foo bar quux, then I want a list like foo.dot bar.dot and quux.dot, oh and another one like foo.svg bar.svg quux.svg < 1260167656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I do that based on the first variable < 1260167660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want same for png and such < 1260167672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just two variables maintained separately would be irritating < 1260167703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing all: $(DIAGRAMS).svg $(DIAGRAMS).png just doesn't work < 1260167845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can depend on gnu make here < 1260167853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm having problems navigating the info pages < 1260167926 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure, and am busy trying to teach Java < 1260167930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260167935 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking I'd do it by hand, though < 1260167948 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to code a lot more explicitly in makefiles than most people < 1260167949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I have seen a simple solution for it < 1260167951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere < 1260167958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, that feels so wrong < 1260168013 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to me, I'm used to langs like C < 1260168032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, C → macros < 1260168044 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: $(addsuffix .svg, $(DIAGRAMS)) ? < 1260168068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm I'm pretty sure the thing I saw was much shorter. Maybe it was for switching from one suffix to another < 1260168079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway as long as it works < 1260168101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just defining all as .dot and them substituting the suffix somehow would also work) < 1260168165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$(DIAGRAMS:.dot=.svg) < 1260168175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah yes that seems like it < 1260168186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird I can't find that in any of the info pages of gnu make < 1260168200 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$(var:x=y) is equivalent to $(patsubst x,y,$(var)). < 1260168209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"8.2 Functions for String Substitution and Analysis" in the GNU Make Manual. < 1260168240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, I was looking under the using variables chapter < 1260168256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or actually $(patsubst %x,%y,$(var)) to be exact. < 1260168303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird thing: entering an absolute path starting with / in firefox works fine < 1260168312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entering one starting with ~ for your home dir < 1260168313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't < 1260168325 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it's in that chapter too: "6.3.1 Substitution References" < 1260168327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is this weird? < 1260168335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why is it not? < 1260168349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ is a shell-specific thing, file paths aren't < 1260168365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah missed that < 1260168378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it works in the open and save dialogs however < 1260168387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not in the url bar < 1260168391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File paths are trivially distinguishable from web addresses and you need to support them anyway for command-line launching < 1260168415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, that's GTK for you, not Firefox. < 1260168457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can probably use $(DIAGRAMS:%=%.svg) -- maybe even $(DIAGRAMS:=.svg) -- if you don't want the .dot suffixes in the definition, but I guess that's up to you. < 1260168478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why subgraphs doesn't seem to work < 1260168484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1260168497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, those .dot suffixes are fine < 1260168834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh neato ignores it < 1260169086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, can't get clusters to draw an ellipse around :/ < 1260170213 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260171488 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-250.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260171713 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260171959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Of course, the SELECT statement is compatible with the SQL standard. But there are some extensions and some missing features." < 1260171960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1260171969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extensions can allow compatible yes < 1260171972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but missing features? < 1260172204 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL is about as nonstandardised as is theoretically possible for something so widely used < 1260172213 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is a standard, just everyone seems to ignore it...) < 1260172269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, yes I know, still doesn't make that quote from postgresql docs less funny < 1260172799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260172800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260173131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkdir -p //example.com/foo/bar < 1260173133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1260173164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, context? < 1260173182 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< Deewiant> File paths are trivially distinguishable from web addresses < 1260173195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it is, there is no http: before that < 1260173228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the "/" in the beginning that gives it away (or "C:\" or whatever on windows) < 1260173250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ at the start of a domain name is also unheard of < 1260173254 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkdir -p http://example.com/foo/bar < 1260173255 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway! < 1260173258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially ~/ < 1260173273 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slashes in domain names are so cute. < 1260173326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I suggest is that the anything matching /^(\/|~\/)/ is a local url (~ has no special meaning in this regex dialect, whichever one it is) < 1260173357 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it had better be PCRE, as posix regex doesn't treat ( specially < 1260173373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, probably. < 1260173382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, and that is only basic posix < 1260173389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extended posix does treat it specially < 1260173394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use grep -E to see < 1260173405 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok < 1260173958 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260175317 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260175363 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I've just realised that the list of IRC channels I'm in which have had people join in them since I last looked at them forms a bloom hash of people who have joined IRC < 1260175378 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a very good one, though, because I'm not in enough channels < 1260175387 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bloom table < 1260175642 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260175844 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260176642 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1260177902 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc < 1260177943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this time i did read the first panel first, and immediately expected a pun < 1260177986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1260177996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, reminder please < 1260178016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mordechai, ghost, bank employee < 1260178027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260178052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas i didn't manage to guess the pun beforehand < 1260178063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i tried for very long < 1260178081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I didn't get the pun. Or rather. I understand it is on "dead men tell no tails", but then "huh?" < 1260178107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tales < 1260178121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well-known proverb, or so < 1260178176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah but I don't see why "tail no tellers" is funny < 1260178234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not a particularly good pun. it scans badly too :D < 1260178264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is "teller" supposed to mean < 1260178274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone who tells something? < 1260178277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1260178285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? < 1260178286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a banking profession < 1260178297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah well that explains the pun indeed < 1260179391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs, why can't graphviz -Tdia actually generate non-broken files < 1260179423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is just too much to ask to get the actual edges you know, instead of just the nodes... < 1260179868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: your TURKEY BOMB semantics don't work, AFAICT it's possible to have multiple different PUDDINGs < 1260179882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I was planning to make PUDDINGs lazy so you didn't have to fit the whole thing in memory at once < 1260179908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you made that language‽‽ < 1260179914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I didn't < 1260179924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm one of the few people to attempt to interpret the spec, though < 1260179959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and TRIVIA is a general name for all TRIVIA CONCERNING types, I think < 1260179987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the drinking game is AFAICT the only way to do control flow < 1260180001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can take advantage of the fact that there are two different ways to pass the TURKEY BOMB < 1260180111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why would you want to email someone 2+2? < 1260180117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you can do it in a nice little pipeline < 1260180252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, use thinspaces as the thousands specifier < 1260180257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's the Right Way to do it < 1260180262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay dia is really annoying < 1260180276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still graphviz doesn't do what I need so I guess I'm stuck with dia < 1260180312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for taking derivatives of constants < 1260180331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dia even lacks something as simple as "lock object" (which is really useful if you want to align/adjust but keep one of those objects fixed and instead prefer to move the other ones < 1260180344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does there seem to be any way to tell it specific coordinates < 1260180351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I can't seem to move using the cursor keys < 1260180356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, move objects < 1260180361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it moves the view instead (scrolling) < 1260180362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go use the INTERCAL definition of "constant" (= "initialised variable you should try hard to avoid changing the value of to avoid confusing yourself"), then you can define the derivative of constants with respect to other constants < 1260180382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the text label editor does *not* support selections < 1260180432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm dia on my desktop seems to do a bit better than on my laptop. One of those issues solved < 1260180607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION invents a makefile that calls dia on his desktop to automate exporting to svg. Since that on his laptop is broken < 1260181147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what do you think of that idea? < 1260182408 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260183025 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260184255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'I can imagine the Christians' response to growing evidence of a spherical earth. "Of course there is no doubt that microcurvature is real, but this macrocurvature theory is a ridiculous fabrication."' < 1260184268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from a pharyngula comment thread) < 1260184311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ehird is not here < 1260184319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course not, it's silent after all < 1260184353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait he said he wouldn't be here until next weekend? :( < 1260184565 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260184617 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260184961 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260185118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's what make is designed for, isn't it < 1260185140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? building something on a remote system? < 1260185151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :following a series of repetitive steps automatically < 1260185157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, by scp-ing files over, running a command then scping them back < 1260185164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1260185189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%.svg: %.dia Makefile < 1260185189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : scp $< $(REMHOST):$(REMPATH)/ < 1260185189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ssh $(REMHOST) dia -e $(REMPATH)/$@ $(REMPATH)/$< < 1260185189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : scp $(REMHOST):$(REMPATH)/$@ $@ < 1260185192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very pretty < 1260185475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260185514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so lets see the crazy way I did today: generate basic thing in graphviz, then export to dot, fix up broken export result manually in dia (and fix the things I couldn't do in graphviz, which was why I needed dia in the first place), then export the whole thing to svg, fix up some minor issues in inkscape, then export to pdf < 1260185521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for about 20 diagrams < 1260185542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the whole thing/each diagram/ < 1260185641 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260185854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cannot quite find out whether that thing was an asimov quote or not < 1260185951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what thing? < 1260185961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the comment quote i pasted < 1260185986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1260185991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google it? < 1260186002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried < 1260186015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :top hit is the comment thread itself < 1260186029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it was just inspired < 1260186105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the idea also appears in a pandasthumb thread < 1260186118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from 2004 < 1260186148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260186161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> oh btw another thing I noticed is that Wolfram really likes boasting. < 1260186168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spherical earth... isn't that universally accepted apart from a few lunatics < 1260186171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that took you a while.... < 1260186180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see next few lines < 1260186203 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's an analogy you dumbass < 1260186213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anti-evolutionists < 1260186238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I wasn't aware of the context. < 1260186310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a single word which gives 1 google hit all by itself is a "googlewhackblatt", according to New Scientist < 1260186320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who coined the word specifically so that it would appear on exactly one website for a while < 1260186472 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an even more obscure word for it. however it is essentially impossible to find it because the author took strict steps to keep it self-referential. < 1260186481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't that supposed to be some sort of serious magazine or such? < 1260186490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1260186497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the penultimate page is rather less serious < 1260186499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was on ther < 1260186500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there < 1260186502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260186539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of like worsethanfailure, except it refers to science not programming and it's still firmly on the correct side of the shark < 1260186565 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah Last Word < 1260186572 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was good last time I read it < 1260186579 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can read some of it online < 1260186587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, last word's the last page < 1260186591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :penultimate page is Feedback < 1260186611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Last Word is pretty interesting too, it's basically gives bounties for answering interesting everyday science queries) < 1260187536 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260187729 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gingersnap soda: DELICIOUS. < 1260188741 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, ok < 1260188784 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"brb restarting" < 1260189000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I was reading the discussion about zzo38 being like Chuck Moore, and I accidentally misread it as Chuck Norris < 1260189005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was amusing, to say the least < 1260189025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_< >_> < 1260189421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hehe < 1260189435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made me actual laugh out loud, that's rare < 1260189445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuck Norris jokes do that < 1260189461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? make people laugh out loud? not really < 1260189474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but comparing zzo to Chuck Norris did < 1260189510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also you said "accidentally misread" it. It would be pretty strange to intentionally misread that one < 1260189519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was that qualification really required? < 1260189550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always unnecessary words < 1260189756 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have considered some Chck Moore Facts, but ran out of ideas quickly < 1260189769 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't stretch the truth very well in that way < 1260189811 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First Chuck Moore removes the inessential complexity of the problem; then Chuck Moore removes the inessential complexity of the problem; then the problem surrenders." < 1260189832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuck Moore's so good at computing that uses raw IRC through his own syntax highlighter! < 1260189835 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the approach that he advocates in his writings < 1260189913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260189913 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260189913 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260189913 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260189918 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260189948 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260189948 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260189948 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260189948 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260189948 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260190026 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260190036 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260190217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> Chuck Moore's so good at computing that uses raw IRC through his own syntax highlighter! < 1260190219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is awesome < 1260190222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should make a new meme < 1260190362 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260191262 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-16-83.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260193125 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260193298 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? :) < 1260193355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adam_d, really what? < 1260194003 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260194283 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260194353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260196080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1260196562 0 :Oranjer!n=HP_Admin@adsl-71-0-97.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260196801 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone alive < 1260196802 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1260196848 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am < 1260196861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains... < 1260196915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi oi oi < 1260196927 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh < 1260196939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm < 1260197330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1260197372 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260197374 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1260197380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1260197392 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1260197407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure about this? < 1260197464 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I...well, there's no turning back now, anyway < 1260197474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, true < 1260197579 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so...I mean, will there be a sign? < 1260197614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negative < 1260197647 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is...is that a joke? I can't remember...anything < 1260197656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1260197690 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1260197735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, you owe me 200 dollars < 1260197751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a reminder < 1260197753 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what denomination? < 1260197773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you are in the US aren't you < 1260197799 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1260197804 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, Southern baptist? < 1260197831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that one of those fundamentalist ones? < 1260197838 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260197843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then no < 1260197847 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate fundamentalist dollars too < 1260197885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should go by canadian ones. even if they're less worth < 1260197908 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :canadian dollars are not worthless! < 1260197919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say that < 1260197951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just thought they'd be less fundamentalist < 1260197986 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260197988 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1260198007 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the Canadian separatist dollars are worth half, I think < 1260198030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260198065 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260198074 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :borders are borders, even if you can't see them from space < 1260198190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's not cross that line < 1260198208 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point < 1260198405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we are going in circles < 1260198430 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets go in octagons instead < 1260198432 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dodecagons < 1260198479 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you read "The Phantom Tollbooth"? < 1260198490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1260198491 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260198502 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want some subtraction soup < 1260198503 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes < 1260198506 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260198691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as long as it isn't additive < 1260198718 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260198719 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there are any additives in subtraction soup < 1260198727 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhh < 1260198742 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :</badpun> < 1260198750 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I first read that as "addictive:, I am confused < 1260198765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: that was actually intended < 1260198921 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1260198930 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, ha. ha! < 1260198965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1260199146 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awww < 1260199160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1260199255 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1260199265 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just thinking of the books I gotta write < 1260199278 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the buziniss I gotta start < 1260199287 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i have to write like 7 books for this algebra course < 1260199301 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by tuesday < 1260199306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you are doing things backwards < 1260199337 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HUH? < 1260199373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in courses, you are supposed to read books not write them < 1260199411 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1260199428 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how would i know how to read them if i haven't written ones myself? < 1260199428 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could always be some algebra-book-writing course < 1260199434 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird, yeah < 1260199445 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I...I have to disagree on that < 1260199461 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you've written a sentence, you can theoretically write a book < 1260199505 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, it is no more necessary to write a book in order to read them than it is to learn how to make a car from scratch in order to drive it < 1260199506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you never write a sentence, it is much harder < 1260199554 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i mentioned you people are really weird. < 1260199564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to disagree on that ... logic < 1260199575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: it's the fumes < 1260199589 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fumes < 1260199595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the logic, mind you, not the conclusion < 1260199615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the madness-inducing fumes < 1260199619 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I also disagree on the logic < 1260199622 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I left too much out < 1260199634 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have explicitly stated the assumptions < 1260199697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to really state it properly, you would have to write a book, which would defy the whole purpose < 1260199829 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1260199829 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1260199829 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only... < 1260199835 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could store the assumptions on a site < 1260199879 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you pick and choose which ones < 1260199885 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it generates a webpage < 1260199890 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you post the link! < 1260199916 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of _Paradise Lost In Cyberspace_ < 1260199938 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a website there that contained the proof of God's existance. < 1260199946 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1260199955 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did...God disappear afterward? < 1260199957 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was infinite, and you never got any close no matter much you read it. < 1260199962 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260199968 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like Hofstadter stuff < 1260200059 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.angelfire.com/pq/radiohaha/PLICS.html < 1260200083 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to be confused with a somewhat thematically-similar one by the same guy: http://www.angelfire.com/pq/radiohaha/PLIS.html < 1260200462 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260202160 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260202191 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1260202430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260203253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260203509 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260203627 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260204426 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260204624 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260208360 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260208656 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wl01-copier-103a.dc.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260208741 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260208777 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260208788 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wl01-copier-103a.dc.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260208917 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260208987 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.126.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260208992 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260209030 0 :OxE6|!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-3.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260209038 0 :OxE6|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260209147 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260209450 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260210593 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260214353 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bai" < 1260219390 0 :OxE6|!n=mu@wl01-copier-103a.dc.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260219392 0 :OxE6|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mu < 1260219394 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260221870 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260221895 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260221951 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260222046 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260222111 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260223366 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260223749 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260224028 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260224041 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-3.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260224047 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260225461 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260225507 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260227167 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260228154 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260228773 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260228838 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260230215 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260230253 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260230259 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260232099 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260232252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260234468 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260235464 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260235644 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260236125 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260236351 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"OMG NO!!!!!! DON"T TOUCH MY LEFT PINKY!!!!!" < 1260237788 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260237794 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260238192 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260238628 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260239599 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242380 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242380 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242380 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242389 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242389 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242459 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260243167 0 :sunrider!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260244263 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260244677 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244678 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244682 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244682 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244684 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244685 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244685 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244892 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@h-28-236.A159.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244931 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245102 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260245116 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245126 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260245191 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245248 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245249 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245249 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245317 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245396 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello guys, I think you might find this interesting: http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/bf.txt :) < 1260245564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260245640 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245641 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245675 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245838 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245838 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245900 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245968 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246147 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246147 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246155 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246184 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246184 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246184 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246188 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260246771 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246854 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246854 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246854 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246855 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246855 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246855 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246885 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246962 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260252518 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260252522 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260253079 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260254497 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260255498 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busy beaver is a computer science problem to finding the smallest Turing Machine that outputs the most data and eventually halts. This project is an implementation of a Turing Machine in Python and C++ that runs the busy beavers. It also comes with Turing Machine’s tape visualization tool written in Perl. < 1260255531 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the first few Busy beavers for brainfuck? < 1260255547 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar ? if someone has done a search < 1260255627 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260255641 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260255742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. is the one for length 1. Happy to help. < 1260255755 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that print?????? < 1260255778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely a zero byte. < 1260256004 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the best way to try and find busy beavers? < 1260256050 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's the smallest brainfuck program that halts and outputs more bytes than the program code has? < 1260256087 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari I guess if I found the first few busy beavers I would answer that ? < 1260256164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a nagging feeling that the subject of a busy-beaver-like function for brainfuck was talked about here once, but I can't really seem to find any references to it. < 1260256228 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wwhat's another language than brainfuck which automatic termination analysis is easier? < 1260256269 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you assume a brainfuck implementation where the cell values are bounded and wrap around, my guess for Ilari's program would be "+[.+]" -- that doesn't look like it could be simplified very much. < 1260256295 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right it is ok for Ilaris question not to terminate < 1260256317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he said "that halts"; but that one does halt if the cell values wrap-around. < 1260256323 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260256348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course for a question that smells so theoretical, you might opt for some sort of idealized infinite-tape infinite-cell-size brainfuck. < 1260256382 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... And with unbounded cells it should be more interesting. Of course one has to define what "output byte" means in that case. '.' invocation? < 1260256422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think you should count the number of . operations there. < 1260256470 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And specify deterministicalistically what , will do, or disallow it completely. < 1260256480 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah disallow , < 1260256499 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least shortest program that loads cell under pointer by at least 5 greater than its length could be used to construct program that prints more than its length. < 1260256581 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260256636 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260256681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, +++[...-] will output 9 values -- the same as the program length -- and you can add one + or ., so that's an upper bound for the size of the smallest Ilari-program. < 1260256689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See, I made up a name for it.) < 1260256715 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)))))) < 1260256780 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+++[....-] is first of those two in ASCII order. < 1260256892 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the busy-beaver like function for BF is of course how many times program of n bytes can invoke . and still halt. Obiviously, its strictly increasing function. < 1260256896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- comes before . so +++[-....] would be before that. < 1260256928 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can equate [-....] and [....-] < 1260256965 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it is < 1260256987 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and those programs can't contain ',') < 1260257146 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a good strategy: enum and run every brainfuck program of the set length -- with a timeout < 1260257161 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones that timed out you keep them in a list to inspect by hand (bcaesue they might not terminate) < 1260257199 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the first brainfuck program that generates some output that is just too huge to deal with? < 1260257203 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that terminates) < 1260257219 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess nobody has found it yet.... < 1260257422 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any better way/improvements?? < 1260257579 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just know people have tried this for tm's, http://www.answers.com/busy%20beaver#current_6-state.2C_2-symbol_best_contender < 1260257698 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ lower bound functions < 1260257729 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well finding the minimum vavlue for it is hard but its still silly < 1260258118 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a bit silly i suppose. i wonder what their methods are < 1260258271 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lower bound functions, for some reason you just meant lower bounds for specific values < 1260258286 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no lower bound function < 1260258295 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any computable function is a lower bound < 1260258301 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260258345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> silly < 1260258422 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that 100 byte BF program, lower bound for number of times it can invoke . and still halt is 11 757 312. For 1 000 byte program, same costructs give 382 748 214 098 589 572 136 663 385 960 069 669 070 838 715 433 037 453 066 072 476 832... < 1260258442 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?? < 1260258446 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you get these numbers < 1260258462 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick a construction and calculate from that. < 1260258624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: ah, you've been calculating busy beaver for BF? < 1260258792 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260258930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: And what was the construction for those numbers? < 1260259009 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-184.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260259156 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some structure the multiplies the number of . by 6 for each level... and +7 somewhere. < 1260259199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260259200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260259208 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1260259463 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, looks like one can do much better. 100 byte program giving 2^2^2097152 .'s < 1260259492 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari you've written it? < 1260259790 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. It doesn't quite work out. Attempting to fix it yields only 2^2^262144... < 1260259865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the maximum Turing Machine complexity for which the busy beaver number is known exactly? < 1260259887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, if we keep brute-forcing up through the complexities < 1260259897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll eventually find out what the simplest mathematical question we don't know the answer to is < 1260259990 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260260010 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's in my link, was it size 4 < 1260260016 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260260029 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... anybody want to figure out wheither this halts and if it does, how many times it outputs stuff: ++++++[>++++++<-]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>[.-] < 1260260043 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one tape symbol, and 4 states that is < 1260260062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's just a copy of the Wikipedia article in a worse interface... < 1260260089 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i'm not sure why that's relevant < 1260260108 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would use wikipedia, but i also check words, and answers has a simpler url. < 1260260153 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it got screwed up somehow: 2^2^68719476736... < 1260260191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: does your web browser not have a search box in the top-right corner that can be set to Wikipedia? < 1260260242 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's set to google atm. < 1260260258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I change the setting according to what I'm looking for < 1260260261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine even has an Esolang setting < 1260260285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although, for some reason, to look up words I use Wikipedia but with a wikt: prefix) < 1260260376 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: do you like big things? regexes and now bb... < 1260260458 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There has to be even more powerful ways to pump up the numbers than exponential pumping. Perhaps not in 100-byte programs but for larger ones... < 1260260475 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260260487 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's is always a more complicated way < 1260260508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i'm fairly sure there are better ways in <100 programs... < 1260260515 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*byte < 1260260544 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it's not *that much* less powerful than tm's < 1260260628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fairly obvious how to compile BF to a TM < 1260260644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much just a TM with a few extra restrictions < 1260260662 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're interested in the other way < 1260260668 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well direction < 1260260695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260260712 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just uncall the compiler < 1260260945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You have a brainfuck interpreter, what do you think about that program Ilari asked about? < 1260260946 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute ( base 8 fnord should a thread be given a lot of < 1260260957 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work < 1260260960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because not all possible TMs are the direct translation of some BF program < 1260260981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that fungot comment would have been so perfect if it stopped before the paren < 1260260982 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://sourceforge.net/ donate/ fnord to http://en.wikibooks.org/ wiki/ 2006_esolang_contestcommittee. < 1260261062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beh, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/2006_esolang_contest_committee is blank < 1260261075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no entries in the deletion log, either < 1260261111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should count the likelihood of fungot mentioning brainfuck to see how much of a coincidence that was; as far as I know, it still doesn't use the "input" sentence at all when constructing the reply. < 1260261111 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'll bet this would be good for anything but a k-like combinator ( fnord) fnord < 1260261123 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what that was accidental?? < 1260261129 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i though fizzie wrote that answer :D < 1260261148 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute" <<< this is a perfect answer :| < 1260261163 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically not true, but clearly a strong AI < 1260261179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`qdb <fungot> fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute < 1260261180 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hey man that's python or something even more bizarre and inexplicable. < 1260261180 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260261191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again? < 1260261654 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260261930 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260262216 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260262324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, hm about that link you posted before < 1260262325 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh. < 1260262342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, fix this somehow ^ < 1260262354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(compare with nick list maybe?) < 1260262406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, anyway, you say in the comment at the start that rcfunge is broken? Yet iirc it passes those parts in mycology. So care to say how exactly those instructions are broken < 1260262406 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, this interests me greatly since I'm the developer of one of the other befunge-98 interpreters (cfunge). < 1260262442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260262442 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect Deewiant will be interested too, since he wrote the befunge-98 testsuite mycology < 1260262506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said that wrong; it is "this is relevant to my interests", not "this interests me". < 1260262524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? < 1260262560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it seems to be "reflect on EOF/error" < 1260262561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I'm referring to http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Relevant of course. (Unless you were one of the people avoiding links to that site.) < 1260262565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc cfunge handles that < 1260262576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, it even does it for stdout < 1260262581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it ignores SIGPIPE) < 1260262591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I avoid it of course < 1260262604 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really "of course", but whatever. < 1260262651 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260262652 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260262653 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260262699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, considering http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/rcfunge-fix.txt I'm confident cfunge will work for you < 1260262699 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, be aware of that cfunge requires a *nix system. It won't work on Windows except under cygwin, and even under cygwin it requires quite a bit of work to make it work < 1260262758 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262912 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260262977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello world! < 1260262981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260262983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1260262996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is egobot?........................................................ < 1260263022 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, just tested it, it works under cfunge < 1260263136 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260263146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit irritating there is no newline after End < 1260263153 0 :rodgort`!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263224 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263224 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263224 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263273 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263273 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263273 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263273 0 :Ilari!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263281 0 :Ilari_!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263380 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263380 0 :lifthrasiir!i=daXp7mox@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263381 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260263388 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1260263731 0 :Ilari__!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263742 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263742 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263812 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263815 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263815 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263815 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263849 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260263850 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263850 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263850 0 :Ilari!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263913 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264068 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@86.158.81.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264076 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264297 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260264315 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264452 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection refused < 1260264470 0 :Ilari__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1260264617 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260264798 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-rrvvdacyvphuxhht JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265075 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260265075 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260265131 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@86.158.81.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265131 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1260265319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260265621 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265736 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260265787 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you said mathematica was slow, but fast at some specific things iirc? < 1260265851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260265924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, slow on stuff like? < 1260265943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, managing NextPrime[800!] in less than a minute doesn't seem too slow to me for example < 1260265966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: slow on stuff that isn't a simple combination of primitives < 1260265974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NextPrime[800!] is a simple combination of primitives < 1260265978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1260265993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so any time you have to write a loop by hand, for instance (even using map or fold) < 1260266001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whatever they're called in Mathematica) < 1260266019 0 :facsimile!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266028 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260266038 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266081 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260266100 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266114 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266114 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266115 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1260266170 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266170 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266423 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Map is called Map -- "Map[f, expr] or f/@expr applies f to each element on the first level in expr" -- and fold is called Fold -- "Fold[f, x, list] gives the last element of FoldList[f, x, list]. FoldList[f, x, {a, b, ...}] gives {x, f[x, a], f[f[x, a], b], ...}." < 1260266529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260266810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh I can't get parallel stuff in mathematica to work < 1260266815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to block the main thread < 1260266833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't evaluate something in one thread then evaluate other stuff elsewhere < 1260267246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how much of mathematica is written in mathematica? < 1260267260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering what you said about speed I guess "almost none"? < 1260267264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none that matters < 1260267278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either wrappers or written in C, I think (although I don't know for certain as I haven't seen the code) < 1260267304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet the docs claim that mathematica is so fast and great and everything < 1260267307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260267347 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheSoftwareEngineeringOfMathematica.html < 1260267466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, they claim it's fast because things like NextPrime have been so carefully optimised by hand < 1260267474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and written in a non-Mathematica language < 1260267488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they didn't really realise that if it were truly fast, they wouldn't /have/ to do that < 1260267571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260267586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so they are saying that C is fast basically < 1260267604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they're saying their algos are fast too < 1260267607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is interesting, and important < 1260267616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why Mathematica is so fast for doing combinations of primitive < 1260267618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*primitives < 1260267622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the primitives are implemented very well < 1260267643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it basically has similar speed properties to Thutu once you try to do something more complicated < 1260267649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's much the same language, just with a worse syntax < 1260267665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, in theory you could optimise better by taking advantage of exactly how the primitive is used < 1260267677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but AFAICT it doesn't < 1260267711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if the domain isn't all integers, but only all odd integers, you can skip checking in prime checks if a number is a multiple of 2 < 1260267719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one won't save much < 1260267733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suspect there are cases which saves a whole lot in theory < 1260267752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders how to ask Mathematica for a list of all even primes < 1260267757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Thutu is really slow isn't it? < 1260267762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without optimising by hand and just writing [2] < 1260267773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, because it has to keep rescanning the string to find out what to do < 1260267780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's O(n) slower than other langs, typically < 1260267792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine a processor that kept losing the IP and having to scan the entire program to find where it was, it's like that < 1260267797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh. Why not ask it to find an instance that disproves the Riemann conjecture? < 1260267815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean it doesn't use any AST? < 1260267816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because the first should be relatively easily expressible in a programming language, but I'm not sure it is < 1260267826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and I invented a feather-like language < 1260267827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I don't mean that < 1260267830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not as such < 1260267832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inspired by < 1260267838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it operates on pattern matching behind the scenes < 1260267852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a feather-like tarpit? < 1260267877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: go on, although I doubt feather-like is very easy to achieve at all without being utterly different < 1260267893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, think a mathematica notebook, but every change of a definition of a function or variable below will update all prior usages of it. Of course this becomes interesting if you use it in a condition such that you only redefine it if it has it's original definition < 1260267915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it would never have been redefined < 1260267915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica actually /has/ that, to some extent < 1260267920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leading to a contradiction < 1260267922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put Interactive[] around the definition, or something like that < 1260267927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260267930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you have to edit actual uses of the number < 1260267939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can edit processed results to get a goal-seek < 1260267942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*{2} < 1260267947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260267948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was forgetting Mathematica syntax... < 1260267969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think: < 1260267970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=2 < 1260267979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(here I don't know mathematica syntax:) < 1260267987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if[x==2] x=4 < 1260267993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably x:=2, but I'm not sure either < 1260267993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would lead to a paradox < 1260267998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would be if[x==2,x=4] < 1260268000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very similar to the grand father paradox < 1260268006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay < 1260268014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, it is =, not :=, I think now < 1260268017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm vaguely confused < 1260268021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said = < 1260268022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260268023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not really meant to use variables in Mathematica < 1260268064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much the same way as you're not really meant to use loops in J < 1260268072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it claims to be state of the art at procedural programming. As well as offering unique enhanced advantages for functional programming. < 1260268074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although presumably they're expressable somehow (maybe a convoluted waY) < 1260268079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*way < 1260268079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or was it the reverse?) < 1260268083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hit caps lock by mistake < 1260268097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the claims have been Wolframised < 1260268099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, strange effect for Ctrl-Y < 1260268107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1260268107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah. Actually it claims: < 1260268118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to write y shift-0 < 1260268126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hit capslock-y shift-0 because capslock is next to shift < 1260268135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language." < 1260268138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as I typed that y with my right hand, the left hand was already going to shift at the time < 1260268140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even sillier < 1260268142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a-capslock because a is next to capslock? < 1260268142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than what I suggested < 1260268144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1260268151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't think so < 1260268176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think Mathematica really 'gets' functional programming < 1260268180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you see that about bugs found in rc/funge above? Some stuff mycology didn't test. < 1260268189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen an implementation of SKI in Mathematica, but it didn't define it as functions but as rewriting < 1260268197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, See what `Fuco` said in the logs < 1260268223 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268226 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycouser tests nothing explicitly < 1260268253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, does ccbi handle it? < 1260268256 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to see whether it handles EOF correctly, redirect /dev/null to the stdin of your interpreter. < 1260268260 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course it does. < 1260268262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I checked that cfunge handles what he described correctly < 1260268269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, even for output? < 1260268280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that's quite important too you know < 1260268281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not, but I'm not sure < 1260268342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what outputting to /dev/zero does < 1260268351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing, IIRC < 1260268355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just ignores the output < 1260268362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as /dev/null then < 1260268365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260268371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest84808 < 1260268378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading from /dev/null gives EOF, doesn't it? < 1260268379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless /dev/null is optimised for faster ignoring of output? < 1260268384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, iirc yes < 1260268388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that makes no sense, surely? < 1260268395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how one can optimize ignorance < 1260268411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it could. It could be done so that the data is not even sent to the kernel at all < 1260268418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would require standard library support < 1260268424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theoretically possible < 1260268437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that slow down all output that /wasn't/ ignored? < 1260268444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay. < 1260268448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1260268453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *could* happen in *theory* < 1260268469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also not if you use quajets (or whatever the term was) < 1260268495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh can't find that < 1260268501 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey, thanks for your comments, I've just came back from school < 1260268538 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yea the problem was on "reflect on failure" on I/O operations, rcfunge was unable to determine EOF < 1260268553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general, RC/Funge is not very high quality. I don't recommend it. < 1260268561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recommend it either < 1260268572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, Deewiant wrote ccbi and mycology, I wrote cfunge. < 1260268573 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260268576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use our software < 1260268582 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) < 1260268585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1260268627 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I'll check it out < 1260268657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`: Deewiant's a world expert on Funge interpreter correctness testing < 1260268658 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260268665 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've revised some of my code at the boring lecture, so I'm gonna update it and test on something else ;0 < 1260268676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi and cfunge are likely the best interps to use, as a result of it < 1260268682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh found it < 1260268685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ < 1260268689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: how's Language::Befunge getting on, by the way? < 1260268694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I bet it could be efficient with THAT < 1260268725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would like to point out that efunge is rather good too < 1260268728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I guess it does a good job at validity but is still slow as hell? < 1260268741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh, that's how everything works in Underload/Unlambda < 1260268748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that's my guess too, I just wanted it confirmed < 1260268791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been benchmarking lately (or funging at all really) but I doubt it's got enough speed to be usable for complex programs < 1260268797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that article's just inspired a crazy idea in me < 1260268800 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JIT /dev/null < 1260268815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all < 1260268835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting. < 1260268856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done < 1260268871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it wouldn't have called it that < 1260268939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 from the discussion section: < 1260268942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?" < 1260268945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of that thesis < 1260268951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260269058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1260269082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260269281 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260269333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what was the last you saw? < 1260269377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:30:51 |pm] <HackEgo>| No output. < 1260269378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:31:02 |pm] <ais523>| um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again? < 1260269380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from this connection < 1260269387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what I saw on the other one < 1260269390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err that I never saw < 1260269396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting. < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> except it wouldn't have called it that < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> ais523 from the discussion section: < 1260269401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?" < 1260269404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> of that thesis < 1260269406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw that < 1260269406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> XD < 1260269409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, all the way? < 1260269418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw everything up to the quit on the other connection < 1260269424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it was a quit by hand, not a lagquit < 1260269427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1260269518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is there something wrong with sending myself a zipped tgz that itself contains other zips and tgzs? < 1260269535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, zipped tgz? < 1260269542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is pointless < 1260269546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1260269550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? < 1260269558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, there was a directory tree full of zipfiles that I needed to send to another computer < 1260269567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure, so tar them up < 1260269569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I tarred the directory tree < 1260269572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or zip them with no compression < 1260269574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put z in the tar command because why not < 1260269579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, not all the files in it were compressed < 1260269587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well why did you put it in a .zip afterwards? < 1260269595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, because the data was private, I put it in a passworded zip < 1260269598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260269602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prevent it getting snooped on over the email < 1260269609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not gpg it? < 1260269616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not that careful with my own stuff normally, but for other people's sensitive data, I'm not sending it over email unencrypted) < 1260269627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because zip encryption is easy to break iirc < 1260269642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are talking a lot less time than gpg here unless I misremember < 1260269649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I picked a very long password so as to make life harder when breaking it < 1260269667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, none of this is meant to stand up to a concerted attack, someone with the resources to do that could just hack the server here, or my login on it < 1260269676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well iirc it used to use a easy to break encryption algorightm < 1260269681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithm* < 1260269694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though google suggests winzip uses 128-bit AES at least < 1260269702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find anything about zip standard < 1260269757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 7zip offers either the old easy to break one and 256-bit AES < 1260269797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used the command-line "zip" on Fedora < 1260269802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# cryptsetup status /dev/mapper/root < 1260269802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/mapper//dev/mapper/root is active: < 1260269803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, CentOS < 1260269807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[correct output listed] < 1260269813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(grr, I get Red Hat derivatives confused mentally...) < 1260269814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a bit funny that path < 1260269822 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what version it is < 1260269847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bad luck: < 1260269853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -e Encrypt the contents of the zip archive using a password which is entered on the terminal in response to a prompt (this will not be echoed; < 1260269853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if standard error is not a tty, zip will exit with an error). The password prompt is repeated to save the user from typing errors. Note < 1260269853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that this encrypts with standard pkzip encryption which is considered weak. < 1260269876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, congrats, if anyone wanted to read that they could easily have done < 1260269889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and: why not just scp it < 1260269894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been way more secure < 1260269897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and easier to do < 1260269902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to a computer that wasn't network-connected at the time? < 1260269913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fair enough, still gpg is required < 1260269916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has port 22 firewalled, and isn't running sshd as it is? < 1260269924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it is running sshd < 1260269928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has port 22 firewalled anyway < 1260269945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gpg wouldn't really work without a public key to encrypt with < 1260269946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because the pkzip style encryption is so easy to break it takes seconds iirc < 1260269956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, use your own public key duh? < 1260269964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know it off by heart < 1260269977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also for gpg: < 1260269979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ < 1260269979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think it's pretty unlikely anyone was intercepting the email in transit anyway < 1260269980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260269983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy-fail < 1260269986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -c, --symmetric encryption only with symmetric cipher < 1260269989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1260270027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just pointing out your protection wasn't really helpful at all < 1260270161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the fsck bug seems to have fixed itself < 1260270169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, my computer fscked itself just fine an hour or so ago < 1260270274 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Fuco < 1260270323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260270347 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260270625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, have you ever run into issues with _FILE_OFFSET_BITS? < 1260270632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I know you are still on 32-bit < 1260270640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1260270711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah I guess you seldom use files larger than 2 GB? < 1260270723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, pretty rare < 1260270733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only time I'd use a file that big would be a full backup of everything < 1260270743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, I'm not sure if it would be that large < 1260270746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I just read about the issues it caused, and I got a feeling that can best be described as nostalgia < 1260270762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't used 32-bit for ages < 1260270851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, seems that my last nonincremental backup was february 2008, and it's less than 1 GB < 1260270865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a symptom of me growing up with floppy disks < 1260270996 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260271037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah I have over 200 GB in my last non-incremental backup < 1260271046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was this summer < 1260271076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1260271083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you store that much? it wouldn't even fit on a USB stick < 1260271100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd need too many CDs to burn it on to be practical < 1260271125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, currently on external disk < 1260271128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use tape < 1260271191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh btw that is just the desktop, the laptop adds another 70 GB or so by now < 1260271197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not it's base < 1260271203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I bought it this summer < 1260271208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to not back up generated files unless they're small < 1260271212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/this/the last/ < 1260271228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well indeed. I don't backup svn checkouts and such < 1260271230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. I back up the .rg (original) and .mid (small) versions of my music < 1260271236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the .ogg versions < 1260271239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with that it would easily add another 100 GB < 1260271247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no time to sort through that sort of stuff < 1260271277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bbiab < 1260271910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1260271951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, so which did you choose? cfunge or ccbi? < 1260271986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) <-- a bit hard to believe considering that program. You must have spent the entire time on befunge since then < 1260271999 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 hours < 1260272020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, hah < 1260272033 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that hard when you think about how it works < 1260272057 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically pushdown automata with a lot of convenient methods (like variables etc) < 1260272059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some non-idiomatic parts in there indeed < 1260272069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first: befunge98 is not .txt but .b98 < 1260272084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, it is self modifying < 1260272085 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then some browsers won't open it ;) < 1260272094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, I wget-ed it anyway < 1260272099 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260272123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, btw you are aware of the "print gnirts" idiom: >:#,_ right? < 1260272155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just you never used it as far as I could find with a quick grep < 1260272159 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot style < 1260272160 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: it turns out he did send something, a classical fnord photo is copyrighted by the photographer and so on < 1260272172 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope as I said I've only found it sunday so ;) < 1260272180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, oh btw fungot is written in befunge 98 < 1260272181 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: although i'm not quite sure on how to blend them fnord, they would have < 1260272182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1260272183 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1260272192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, it runs on cfunge < 1260272223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, well >:#,_ is a useful idiom to know < 1260272255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_,#! #:< in the other direction < 1260272276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and there are vertical versions of course) < 1260272282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there any version based on x? < 1260272288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be possible < 1260272294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or >:#,_# of course, although it won't deal correctly with a null string < 1260272308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how would that ever exit? < 1260272321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1260272328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that side < 1260272330 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's there the : < 1260272339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, duplicate item on top of stack < 1260272344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the _ consumes it < 1260272348 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260272352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:#,_v# is of course the correct-with-null version < 1260272357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, so if we decide to print it we still need it around < 1260272363 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it will print null terminated string < 1260272368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, yes < 1260272379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, which is what a 0"gnirts" is < 1260272384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think it is mentioned in the spec < 1260272385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except I managed to backspace over the : at the end but anyway < 1260272388 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1260272400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, spec is at http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html < 1260272416 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH i see, so i dont have to use number k, < 1260272419 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever ;) < 1260272443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, only assuming you can trust there to be no zero bytes in that string < 1260272464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus k has it's own host of issues < 1260272474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you tag your strings with the length then 1-k, works < 1260272490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for strings of length 1 < 1260272496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260272499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260272504 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I'd figure that out in some time ;D < 1260272529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, also I believe ccbi still doesn't handle nested k in a sensible way < 1260272543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge at least tries to handle it in some sort of not totally confused way < 1260272544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your definition of sensible might be different from mine :-P < 1260272553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1260272558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess it was, last time we discussed it < 1260272566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nested k is by definition not sensible < 1260272573 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw that bot is WTF, it will take some time just to read it < 1260272586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heck I don't even remember what exactly cfunge does XD < 1260272597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, I don't think I ever read the whole thing < 1260272612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, oh and fizzie in here wrote it < 1260272630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, there are some docs at the end < 1260272637 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1260272639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly about how space is used < 1260272647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you have an annotated version < 1260272667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, some page where you displayed info on hover? < 1260272673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do I completely misremember? < 1260272746 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's crazy that people actually write socket libraries for stuff like this < 1260272762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, oh? well there is a fingerprint for it < 1260272763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOCK < 1260272769 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not much to write, the only socket fingerprint is pretty much a C binding < 1260272772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge, ccbi and rcfunge at least implement it < 1260272779 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yea < 1260272781 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :D < 1260272784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, it is a bit of C binding < 1260272855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "a bit" seems to equal "around 340 lines" < 1260272864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to a LOC tool < 1260272870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least for cfunge) < 1260272878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course quite a bit of that is metadata < 1260272909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :276 sock.d < 1260272911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wc -l) < 1260272912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, generated code that loads the fingerprint, lines like: int foo; or such) < 1260272929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you have the advantage of not having to care as much about memory management < 1260272935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to using a higher level language < 1260272953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and you don't have 10 lines of includes at the top < 1260273005 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right: it has three imports, one of which is a workaround for a bug < 1260273773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I had one. < 1260273778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But it was rather incomplete. < 1260273784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, lost it? < 1260273801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it's still somewhere. < 1260273819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html < 1260273819 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: " echo stop killing me < 1260273832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I'm not killing you. < 1260273832 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but some of their income from copies of gnu software. < 1260273858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The highlights are in the wrong place in that file, in fact. < 1260273876 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I had a separate highlight description file, and raw source code file, and apparently those have gotten out of sync. < 1260273900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because I've added a few lines of initialization in there. < 1260273927 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the highlighting stops pretty early on in the file. < 1260273938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, the colours had some sort of meaning too. < 1260273966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes it looks all like light blue on his laptop screen unless he look at it from an extreme angle < 1260273985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Green blocks are the big high-level descriptions, red ones are error conditions/messages, blue and yellow... uh, mean something else. As does grey. < 1260274010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, all grey ones are part of a single block called "Code-flow paths..." < 1260274038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why is there a vertical row of dots there < 1260274066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a sort of highlight that's in the original source file. < 1260274068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, near the end of the annotated area < 1260274072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does it mean? < 1260274077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two columns right of it are reserved for code-flow. < 1260274083 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a marker that you're not supposed to write past it. < 1260274093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, shouldn't it go all the way up? < 1260274099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also why not update it? < 1260274104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, in theory, but I think I got bored. < 1260274114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: context? < 1260274122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260274123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1260274124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1260274128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mistab < 1260274131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1260274134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260274136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite a mistab < 1260274143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The highlights are generated from the http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt file automatically with some javascript. < 1260274143 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so that's a scheme48 bug? :) htmlprag? < 1260274145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your tab-complete set to me by default? < 1260274145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a and f are close < 1260274152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the first here in alphabetical order, so it's plausible < 1260274162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing < 1260274166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, not particularly close in QWERTY; do you use a substantially different layout?) < 1260274176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well no, tab alone just lists the names < 1260274184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "same half" < 1260274187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and same row < 1260274191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes qwerty < 1260274191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't close < 1260274200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, closer than a and o are? < 1260274202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1260274251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is closer than a and o are < 1260274254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's still not close < 1260274265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about a and d? < 1260274289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too far to typo, but close enough that it's not that much of a stretch for the finger < 1260274293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a bit annoying, though < 1260274303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like trying to press ' when your right hand's on hjkl for a vi-style control system < 1260274336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, to do with the way hands work, g is effectively closer to j than a is to d or l is to ' < 1260274341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it's the same physical distance < 1260274350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and 4 is pretty close to d) < 1260274372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing < 1260274397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't tyoe quite correct when doing so, at least if I press enter before piof reading (like here) < 1260274401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1260274410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I didn't do too bad it seems < 1260274413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I only use one screen < 1260274427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some people are more productive with multiple screens as it helps stop them getting distracted < 1260274431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing < 1260274432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm more productive with one screen for the same reason < 1260274434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed that? < 1260274440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I didn't < 1260274445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I even commented against it < 1260274463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1260274471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about five lines ago < 1260274474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of mine < 1260274478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no that was the second time I mentioned it < 1260274479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260274492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing != <AnMaster> ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing < 1260274519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ehird logread: I've started using xmonad again for some things; once I found out it supported multiple desktops, it fits my workflow much better, as I can ensure there's exactly two windows on a desktop when I want to tile two) < 1260274527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and not just multiple screens, in fact they are two computers that are connected using synergy < 1260274539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I was reading something on the other one while typing < 1260274545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, multitasking < 1260274574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you use virtual desktops? < 1260274576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1260274579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought no one did < 1260274588 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I do < 1260274595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, only one at the moment < 1260274604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two is common when I'm working on a programming project (one for it, one for everything else) < 1260274606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I always get annoyed when I have to switch between them < 1260274619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in xmonad, I more commonly use 6 or 7 or so because I don't have a taskbar < 1260274628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for programming I just make sure to use a large enough monitor < 1260274630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a different style of working < 1260274651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I have considered getting another monitor < 1260274661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus having a dual monitor setup + the laptop < 1260274674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is switching desktops hard? < 1260274680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :control-alt-arrow < 1260274686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually easier to press than alt-tab < 1260274701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1260274714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and control-shift-alt-arrow moves the current window with you, although that's a bit harder to press than alt-tab) < 1260274714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-tab requires two fingers from one hand < 1260274721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, first and fourth < 1260274724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260274729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no < 1260274730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a stretch for the fourth < 1260274734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, first and second < 1260274738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: which fingers do you use? < 1260274741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1260274743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fits just perfect < 1260274748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you avoid spraining your wrist < 1260274759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control-alt-arrow requires three fingers, and either from two hands or with a very inconvenient single hand < 1260274765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, moving your index finger from f to tab is a very long way < 1260274766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well if I don't want to move sideways I just use first and forth < 1260274789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I move all over the place for emacs anyway < 1260274793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: two hands, but I don't have to move them very far < 1260274795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so do I < 1260274802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt-tab isn't that inconvenient < 1260274822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway I don't actually use first and second < 1260274828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just noticed it fits perfect < 1260274830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, what do you use? < 1260274839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first and third or first and fourth < 1260274840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-tab doesn't necessarily require any hand movement at all < 1260274841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works just fine < 1260274845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260274853 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrow keys are inconvenient unless you have a hand there already < 1260274856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as for far stretch, yes I need to curl up the finger a bit to not overshoot < 1260274857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: agreed, but it does require a lot of finger movement < 1260274871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm on a laptop, so the arrow keys are below return < 1260274871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so no not a far stretch, rather I would like it further away < 1260274877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than to the right and below < 1260274877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, in my opinion < 1260274881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that probably makes a big difference < 1260274889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and I'm on a full sized keyboard < 1260274891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often press alt-tab using my thumb and pinkie < 1260274896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as I said: big hands < 1260274910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should take a photo of his hand on his keyboard < 1260274911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1260274918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I can find the camera without too much searching < 1260274925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, a laptop keyboard makes things easier < 1260274930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, nop < 1260274933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite a bit, in fact < 1260274941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed. just checked on my thinkpad < 1260274966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no one uses a laptop keyboard if he/she can avoid it < 1260274977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1260274985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I use laptops so much, I'm used to this one < 1260274990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desktop keyboards tend to be a bit large for me now < 1260275056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh. I find even a full sized keyboard cramped < 1260276027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how tall are you? < 1260276038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metric units please < 1260276080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 6 feet; 1 foot is 12 inches, 1 metre is 39 inches, so that translates to about 1.85 metres < 1260276088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's only approximate, though, I haven't measured my height in a while < 1260276097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. I'm 1.89 < 1260276103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you aren't too short < 1260276114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet you said Alt-tab was a far stretch < 1260276118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a laptop keyboard even < 1260276125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from where my fingers normally are < 1260276129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your hands must be fairly small compared to the rest of your body < 1260276135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't that far in an absolute manner < 1260276142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I compress my hand to do the reaching < 1260276148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well what about the fingers 1 and 5? < 1260276151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a lot of movement from the normal locations of my hands < 1260276152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should work well < 1260276155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be even more < 1260276159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my little finger's normally over shift < 1260276167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what I actually use when I'm not thinking about it (just noticed) < 1260276185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the position of my hand is such that I can move it down to control without moving my hand < 1260276188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not up to caps lock < 1260276191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would hate having my little finger curled up like that < 1260276197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't curled up < 1260276199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's straight < 1260276207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very short finger? < 1260276212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which explains why I can't reach tab with it at all without moving my hand < 1260276214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, very low hands < 1260276215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you reach the top rows easily < 1260276221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay < 1260276222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :middle finger reaches them fine < 1260276227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems irritating still < 1260276234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I have to stretch for escape or the F-keys, I hardly use them < 1260276238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about typing q? or 1? < 1260276239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Emacs user, not vi user...) < 1260276247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, everyone has to stretch for f-keys < 1260276251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q is where my fourth finger naturally reaches < 1260276252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the space < 1260276259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 I press by moving my third finger to the left, it's longer < 1260276260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between the normal keys < 1260276262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f-keys < 1260276265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no space on this keyboard between F1 and 1 < 1260276272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay laptop < 1260276273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260276286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about reaching esc? On my laptop it is above F1 < 1260276293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's to the left of F1 here, above ` < 1260276308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and ` is a massive stretch with the third finger for me; for ESC I have to move my hand) < 1260276315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that these are my normal typing hand positions < 1260276321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for, say, playing roguelikes, they'd be different < 1260276331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, on my desktop F10 is above `, and on my laptop the space between F12 and Delete (+ part of Delete) is above ` < 1260276337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the left hand would be higher so it could hit control /and/ escape a lot; the right hand would be over hjkl < 1260276350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ` is at the other end of your keyboard, then < 1260276352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's above tab for me < 1260276390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 78990+ "dead key for Ă©" "backspace < 1260276410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the dead key for e when shifted turns into dead key for è and ` < 1260276418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for Ă©" < 1260276421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1234567890-= backspace < 1260276422 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260276423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1260276443 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to type international characters I use alt-gr plus punctuation < 1260276461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. alt-gr-; is dead key for acute < 1260276485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, §1234 < 1260276503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when shifted: ½!"#¤%&/()=?` < 1260276514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shifted: ¬!"ÂŁ$%^&*()_+ < 1260276515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shift-backspace < 1260276522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when altgr: ¶¡@ÂŁ$€¥{[]}\± < 1260276537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when alt-gr+shift: ¾¹²³¼¢⅝÷«»°¿¬ < 1260276554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|¹²³€½¾{[]}\ (dead key for cedilla) (alt-gr-backspace) < 1260276562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altgr-shift does the same as shift for me < 1260276570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1260276588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also alt-gr backspace is silly < 1260276595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I excluded that one < 1260276600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to it not being of interest < 1260276613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it silly? < 1260276621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Windows, it'd be mapped to control-alt-backspace and kill your X server < 1260276626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it has no special meaning? < 1260276632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait what? < 1260276632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Windows maps altgr to control-alt for some utterly unknown reason < 1260276646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, on Windows you normally don't have an X server running < 1260276650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it doesn't, because then stuff like @ wouldn't work < 1260276662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you saying that Ctrl-Alt-2 on windows is @? < 1260276664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do it with control-alt instead? < 1260276669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1260276683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly, control-alt-4 is €, control-alt-e is Ă© < 1260276687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I never tried and I don't have windows handy atm < 1260276692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't be bothered booting the Windows system here to test < 1260276700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, altgr-4 is $ here < 1260276701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's on a UK keyboard) < 1260276707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1260276709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for € you want altgr-e < 1260276719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altgr-shift-e is ¢ < 1260276721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is < 1260276733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, altgr-3 is ÂŁ < 1260276742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-3 here < 1260276750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw @, ÂŁ and $ are marked on the keyboard < 1260276752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ¢ is "cent", which is 1/100 of a dollar < 1260276760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower part of it < 1260276760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the US, and several other countries which have currencies called dollars < 1260276767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are {[]} < 1260276771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again in the lower part < 1260276776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and \ < 1260276785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's the mingle operator in Princeton syntax for INTERCAL < 1260276791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which if you're not American, is possibly more important < 1260276795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but probably not) < 1260276809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, probably not what? < 1260276823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¢ being more important as an INTERCAL operator than as a currency < 1260276874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouchm I think I have an electric chair. Static such. gave a small spark when touching a metal part < 1260276886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/m// < 1260276897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, same importance for me < 1260276914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not your chair, it's you < 1260276919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you became statically charged < 1260276926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the shock when you touched metal was you discharging all at once < 1260276940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you become charged due to walking around a lot on certain sorts of carpet < 1260276947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in buildings with a certain architecture < 1260276963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't notice on rainy days because you discharge slowly through humidity in the air < 1260277011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260277050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can reproduce the effect with a bit of metal plus some isolation to hold it in after rolling the chair around on the floor a bit < 1260277063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bit of metal was placed on the wooden desk while doing this < 1260277076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's your chair + the carpet that's doing it, then? < 1260277086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no carpet. plastic flooring < 1260277094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, plastic's known to cause the problem < 1260277099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, certain types < 1260277110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, you should discharge yourself before working on electronics (e.g. the inside of computers) < 1260277110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait no, it is actually linoleum in this room < 1260277121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I use a static wrist thingy < 1260277122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260277126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of electricity that a human can feel when it discharges is a lot more than the amount needed to destroy a computer < 1260277132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good, I use a static wrist thingy too < 1260277141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I take off any fleece clothing < 1260277147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably even more important < 1260277174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes or no? < 1260277182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be, yes < 1260277182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fleece gets static very easily < 1260277187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fleeces are made of plastic IIRC < 1260277197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it keeps you wonderfully warm < 1260277204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very important here in Sweden < 1260277227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about the linoleum though? < 1260277234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't cause static should it < 1260277258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an interaction of two things that causes static < 1260277264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw as far as I can tell the static metal part is isolated by plastic from the wheels, Well the wheels are plastic *shrug*. < 1260277269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. rubber soles of shoes and whatever carpets are made of < 1260277291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plastic wheels + linoleum floor might be a combination that charges up < 1260277305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if there's a general rule to determine which combinations charge, and which don't < 1260277312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, current shoes are made of sheep skin with the woolly(sp?) bit turned inside for warmth < 1260277335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the material of the shoes generally that matters < 1260277338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the material of the soles < 1260277346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static charging's caused by friction < 1260277352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which materials are involved in the frictioning < 1260277359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. unknown type of rubber like plastic I'd say < 1260277376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly stiff since it is the only think that provides stiffness to this chair < 1260277391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I was rolling around by holding on to the wooden table < 1260277414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then propelling myself around by <insert fancy word for arm-based muscular force or something> < 1260277431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/table/desk/ < 1260277477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you know how you keep asking about garbage collection for windows? I think I've realised how I do it < 1260277489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get into the habit of switching windows by alt-tabbing at random, and if I hit one I'm not using, I just close it < 1260277518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, saving stuff in it? < 1260277525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also how many windows do you have? < 1260277531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 at the moment < 1260277535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have three to four generally < 1260277538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doing whatever's appropriate to close it, which may involve saving first < 1260277542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe 5 < 1260277545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two permanent: < 1260277547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm I have IRC, email, web browser < 1260277549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminal and editor < 1260277549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konsole and irc client < 1260277559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first three are for general Internet interaction; the last two are my work < 1260277567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, job < 1260277603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, terminal is for everything < 1260277626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I'm saying what the terminal has atm < 1260277630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually has three tabs open < 1260277636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for work, the other two browsing NetHack's source code < 1260277646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for email, did I ever mention I only recently switched from pine? < 1260277656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1260277658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't know that < 1260277667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you using now? mail(1)? < 1260277672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, alpine < 1260277673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260277679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Evolution < 1260277682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is like pine, only more maintained < 1260277690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly to annoy people who don't like Evolution, but mostly because I like the way its UI works < 1260277691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I used thunderbrid at times. < 1260277695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thunderbird annoys me < 1260277702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, less so than evolution < 1260277706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just slightly too obnoxious < 1260277712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, evolution yes < 1260277722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, evolution reminds me of outlook < 1260277725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things you can click on by mistake, mail notifications that say the text of the email onscreen so you have to turn them off, et < 1260277727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*etc < 1260277744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Evolution does similar things to outlook < 1260277750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I don't like that < 1260277752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least the UI mostly doesn't get in the way < 1260277773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Outlook's UI is pretty bad, with lots of top-of-page popups telling you all sorts of things you didn't care about) < 1260277782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and evolution fails to sync against anything but palm units < 1260277796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mobile phone over bluetooth? Just forget it < 1260277797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it syncs against IMAP and POP3 just fine < 1260277805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a mobile, so I don't care about syncing with those < 1260277808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I meant: embedded devices < 1260277811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for calender and such < 1260277821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, only landline? < 1260277834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my family has a landline, I use that on occasion < 1260277837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, sometimes use payphones < 1260277853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you live at home? I somehow thought you didn't < 1260277863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with not having internet < 1260277870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/at home/at parents/ < 1260277888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I live with my parents; that house doesn't have Internet < 1260277889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't want it there < 1260277897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1260277901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't want it? < 1260278137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw is Wolfram american? < 1260278153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's technically British but has lived in the US most of his life < 1260278157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia probably has more details < 1260278169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mathematica used "color" somewhere I'm sure < 1260278182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, even I often write in US English when programming < 1260278186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm Britihs < 1260278189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*British < 1260278191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone else uses it < 1260278201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so writing "colour" probably wouldn't be compatible with libraries < 1260278208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would annoy Americans using my programs < 1260278318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libalut.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored. < 1260278319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260278321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1260278323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why < 1260278354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh found it < 1260278359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 vs. 64 < 1260278611 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260278730 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"going study. exam in 2hrs" < 1260279162 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279162 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279464 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:27:21]<oerjan> eek < 1260279469 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the logs, of course < 1260279475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1260279476 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's such an important expression < 1260279512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very cyclic reference, that < 1260279516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * clog has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) < 1260279516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <oerjan> eek < 1260279516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * clog (n=nef@bespin.org) has joined #esoteric < 1260279521 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make sense without context < 1260279569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nothing does, really < 1260279673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This does. < 1260279698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ha, it is a lie.) < 1260279733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cannot be a lie, it isn't a cake < 1260279772 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess it does follow that if all cakes are a lie, then all lies are a cake. < 1260279777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That might also be a lie.) < 1260279797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION eats fizzie's lie. tastes of cinnamon. < 1260279822 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg < 1260279872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Me and my wife both graduated this autumn -- I'm sure I've mentioned at least the case of myself -- and we felt somehow obligated to arrange something quasi-fancy mostly for the relatives.) < 1260279885 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279885 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279886 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279886 0 :Guest84808!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those flowers and stuff marsipan? < 1260279926 0 :Guest84808!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly, but they are some sort of mostly sugar-based edible building material. < 1260279955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*z < 1260279972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, technically edible. There were also few bits of metal wire in the longer sections of leaves to provide some structural integrity, so you had to be a bit careful there. < 1260280007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you're _married_? is that legal in this channel? < 1260280040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I'm sure there must be some other instances of that class here too. I mean, statistically speaking. In a group of this many people. < 1260280051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*geeks < 1260280090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, does it still count if my wife is a programmer (well, "software engineer") by vocation? < 1260280105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that geeks don't marry, i know a couple who met through the local roleplaying club. still go alternate weeks while the other babysits, afaik < 1260280185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to some ancient HR/payroll software system field width restrictions, her salary receipts say "SOFTWARE ENGINE"; I think that's hilarious. < 1260280197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260280343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you speak of human resources, software engines seem but a small step < 1260281101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260281120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it hours ago < 1260281196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg <-- does the shape have any meaning < 1260281203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me which theme it was? < 1260281208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hours ago too < 1260281211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mythbusters/martians < 1260281228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a hint of steve&terry < 1260281275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION found the punchline to d&d pretty funny < 1260281288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah it was < 1260281296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not really, no. We did think a bit of using the traditional headgear of the university students (there's a very specific type of hat) as the cake motif, but decided it would be too tacky. < 1260281312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same hat as in Sweden? < 1260281319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that isn't for university < 1260281324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1260281328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is for starting at university iirc < 1260281358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :downloading 500 mb at 300 K/s is painfully slow < 1260281367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you want to get it done quickly < 1260281368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, well, I don't know about your hats; here the "university of technology" students get the hat at the end of their first study year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFteknolog.jpg < 1260281392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Finland and Sweden students of technology wear a special kind of cap. It is similar to the cap given to all high-school graduates in both countries, but features a tuft and different kind of cockade showing what university the bearer is attending. " < 1260281411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, your hat looks like you our plus a lot of extra stuff < 1260281415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260281417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1260281425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh I had no clue about this < 1260281435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful to know I guess < 1260281454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no specific graduation hat from university here. And putting a Ph.D. doctoral hat there might have been a bit premature. :p < 1260281471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I know about that, and it happens later yes < 1260281477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what do professors get I wonder < 1260281495 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pink tiara. (Okay, not really, but they should.) < 1260281500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260281540 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one of our professors: the man with the crown: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5926_large.html < 1260281558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is not standard clothes I think < 1260281561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell was that < 1260281564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from the combined CS-and-related-departments christmas party, so, no. < 1260281578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, lots of alcohol? < 1260281584 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260281590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who is that figure on the t-shirt? < 1260281593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That performance was the traditional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Boys%27_Singing_Procession < 1260281600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a maoist king < 1260281641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah I was suspecting something like that but I just couldn't believe my eyes < 1260281655 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Finnish version contains non-biblical elements such as king Herod vanquishing the "king of the Moors", and a short song of praise to tsar Alexander." The black man is the king of the Moors, I think. < 1260281656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what's up with the guy next to him < 1260281700 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I remember Herod (our professor) vanquishing him. Note the toy light saber; it had lights when activated, and made the proper noise. < 1260281734 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was indeed a rather drink-rich party, or so I hear: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5978_large.html < 1260281759 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I slipped out after the dinner part, we had to prepare for that cake-party of ours, which was the very next day.) < 1260281814 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may also take a look at a short summary from the lecture slides given at the beginning of the occasion: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-jukka-patynen/content/20091127_1MG_1637_large.html < 1260281815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how many people < 1260281817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for those boxes < 1260281833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather many, I think. Over one hundred, probably less than three. < 1260281860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the copy machine thing about? < 1260281882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait so you say in the interval (100,3)? < 1260281883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The traditional office christmas party "meme" is to take copies of your... uh, nether regions, with the office copy machine. < 1260281895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(100, 300). I abbreviated a bit. < 1260282401 0 :Guest84808!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260282606 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260282692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260283060 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260283095 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260283275 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260283313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260283313 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260283314 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260283314 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260283530 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260283530 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260283530 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260284489 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260284760 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260285066 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260285094 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260285277 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260285455 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260286757 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260286935 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260287750 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436099.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260287876 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260288201 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260288348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260288777 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260288811 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260290966 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291528 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291569 0 :Aszstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291854 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-15.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291860 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260291903 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291921 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260291921 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-15.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291927 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260292570 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260292589 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260292818 0 :`Fuco`OFF!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260293088 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260293888 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260293900 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260294260 0 :Aszstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1260294338 0 :`Fuco`OFF!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260295105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260295412 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260295626 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260295786 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260296802 0 :madbr!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260296856 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260296990 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260297335 0 :mu!n=mu@wsip-68-15-175-22.no.no.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260297341 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260298103 0 :augur_!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260298258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260300234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://appfrica.net/blog/2009/12/08/evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys Would a linguist please stand up and comment, kthx? < 1260300798 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ook. Ook ook. < 1260300887 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1260300947 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, it seems not to be turing complete < 1260301104 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260301286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ook! < 1260301354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: looking. < 1260301374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have a friend who's a linguistics grad student; I know this stuff!) < 1260301431 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436099.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260301455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure he's right about what "recursion" means. I would expect him to, seeing that he's a software engineer. < 1260301702 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260302045 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260302302 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260302482 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260302910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260303971 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260306136 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260306256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260306744 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260306750 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260308107 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260311223 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260312304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: monkeys do not have language. < 1260312332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the person writing the article doesnt even know what hes talking about < 1260312410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete. < 1260312411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that you're here, or anything, but. < 1260313204 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1260313483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems obvious that monkeys communicate. This report indicates that this one monkey language seems to have a suffix. < 1260313499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :communication is not language, however. < 1260313508 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is language? < 1260313520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not in the sense that human language is language. < 1260313531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we construe the meaning of language broadly enough, then almost anything is language < 1260313536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reduces to communication < 1260313544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, it might even reduce to semiotics < 1260313552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs. < 1260313566 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but language, that is, the kind humans use, is a very different sort of beast < 1260313614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly it employs a wealth of combinatorics to produce expressions < 1260313637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second, it has a rather extensive, (mostly) arbitrary symbolic representational system < 1260313649 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260313671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These monkeys don't have that at all; they have about five morphemes. < 1260313684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they dont even have morphemes, right < 1260313704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because morphemes are particular units that encode meaning bundles of some sort < 1260313711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monkeys dont even have that < 1260313742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have calls that induce other behavior in other monkeys, but they're not encoding symbolic meaning < 1260313780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a monkey gives off a "snake" call or an "eagle" call, its a trigger that induces other monkeys to look for the snake or eagle and then recapitulate the call or ignore it < 1260313791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the recapitulation induces avoidance behavior in the troop < 1260313809 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call does not induce monkeys to sit around pondering the nature of snakes, etc. < 1260313866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably COULDNT even do that; it not meaningful, its purely instinctual. < 1260313890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260313895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its unlikely that monkeys have anything remotely like a thought "oh there's an eagle" when they hear the call < 1260313901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just go into a reactive mode of being < 1260313931 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders whether his goal of teaching language to animals is doomed. < 1260313936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is. < 1260313937 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It totally is, ain't it.) < 1260313941 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260313941 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1260313952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :animals, not even CHIMPS, have a chance of learning language. < 1260313956 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders teaching language to the Piraha instead. < 1260313957 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260313963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they already have language < 1260313971 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dan everett is just an idiot. < 1260314189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a paper i can send you a copy of < 1260314200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that talks about the supposed exceptionality of piraha < 1260314209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its really not that exceptional. < 1260314225 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats actually the name of it, too, right < 1260314227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"piraha exceptionality" < 1260314239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://faculty.virginia.edu/linganth/Docs/Everett-Nevins-etal.Piraha-Exceptionality.pdf < 1260314241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1260314291 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, of course they have language. < 1260314302 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was being... offensive or something. < 1260314319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1260314413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1260315591 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260316117 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260316411 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260316942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I was wondering about your opinions on the topic, and if you could read past the somewhat stupid article and tell me whether or not it had any... Useful meaning. < 1260316946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, thanks. < 1260316964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesnt. < 1260316981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human language is far more complex than just any silly little thing that shows that monkeys have "prefixes" < 1260316986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if this is surprising to begin with < 1260316992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1260317005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##philosophy is discussing language as well, and their discussion is even more inane < 1260317067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse it is < 1260317077 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not by much :) < 1260317080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :philosophers are often completely ignorant of linguistics in any real sense. < 1260317099 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the people there are philosophers, i think they're just trolls < 1260317186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260317187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so < 1260317188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260317719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Someone claimed that the Piraha don't have a language?! < 1260317788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't *mean* to! < 1260317802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1260318230 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260318983 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I heard Piraha don't have a language.. < 1260319085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Piraha don't have a language? Interesting; I'll make note of that. < 1260319309 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a language, so I have to speak English instead < 1260319767 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ÂżNo tienes una lengua? Yo pensaba que hablabas... I dunno. < 1260319799 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish or Spanish o algo. < 1260320061 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :es que no tengo mi propia idioma, solo hablo los de los demás < 1260320217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wenas < 1260320239 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260320380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tampoco yo tengo mi propia idioma; inventar una idioma es difĂ­cil y otros no me comprenderĂ­an. < 1260320465 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A menos que se basa en griego o algo. < 1260320531 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Que siempre he querido hacer, inventar una idioma basado en griego.) < 1260320549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PodrĂ­a llamarla "griego".) < 1260320923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Mi pensas ke vi bezonas studadi Esperanton. < 1260320944 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260320970 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if I knew how to ask how to say stuff in Esperanto in Esperanto. < 1260321083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :La vorto "foo" en Esperanto estas kion? < 1260321100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... I think; my Esperanto isn't *that* good.) < 1260321115 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also to ask the meaning of an Esperanto thing. < 1260321124 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s// how/ < 1260321293 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260321311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that would be 'La vorto "bezoni" en anglo estas kion?' < 1260321333 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm sure it would be fine to say 'Kion estas la vorto . . .' < 1260321344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260321373 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260321375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And answering your question, "should" or "ought to". < 1260321424 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary says it's "needs to". < 1260321456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260321462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right. 'Tis late. < 1260321523 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me how the letter V is pronounced. < 1260321549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like F, but you put your top teeth on top of your bottom lip while you say it < 1260321556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you end up with a buzzier sound as a result < 1260321566 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you let your throat resonate < 1260321570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so V has a pitch whereas F doesn't < 1260321627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's pronounced like a V, in other words. < 1260321652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good to know. < 1260321859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was explaining in English < 1260321862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about Esperanto < 1260321882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just assumed you'd forgotten how to pronounce it, it's not like it's used all this often < 1260321895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor like it's the sort of thing that the sort of people who typically hang out here would particularly need to remember < 1260321911 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had feared that. < 1260321949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you pronounce your Fs bilabially? < 1260321970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too early in the morning to remember what "bilabially" means < 1260322020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a manner involving both lips. < 1260322072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think so < 1260322092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesante. < 1260322113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically, then, it would be very hard to pronounce anything non-bilabially without removing one of the lips, because they always affect how the sound radiates out. < 1260322130 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but only minorly. < 1260322217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vocal synthesizers still tend to have a lip radiation model. (Of course my viewpoint is the speech recognition one, not the linguistic one.) < 1260322236 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260322291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's roughly the same phoneme in Esperanto. < 1260322377 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Says Wikipedia: "Mia kontribuo estas modesta sed mia subteno estas sincera." < 1260322440 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Says another Wikipedia: "Mi cantidad es pequeña pero mi apoyo es sincero." < 1260322487 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Says another: "My amount is little, but my support is sincere." < 1260322520 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a coincidence that three different donors with the same name should donate the same amount on the same date with messages that are word-for-word translations of each other. < 1260322598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same person, presumably they just translated the messages < 1260322618 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the original was. < 1260322631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The guy's name is Yizhao Lang, so probably English. >.> < 1260322631 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the donation form asks for messages in all the Wikipedia languages? To keep the less clever donators out. < 1260325302 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260326518 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260328014 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260329776 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260329870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete. < 1260329875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*WHOOSH* < 1260330062 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you don't understand his complicated linguistic babbles, you could just ask. < 1260330077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats oklofok -----### < 1260330105 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was i helpless? < 1260330119 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean to talk about human language in that way? < 1260330122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you misread the *WHOOSH* target < 1260330129 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean helpless people are the ones you want to swat < 1260330148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_clue_less, oklofok, clueless < 1260330160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, and willfully malignant < 1260330173 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my will is full of malignant stuff < 1260330203 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's even worse puns than usual day < 1260330261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wilfully < 1260330286 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah, i don't have a printer, can someone print these papers for me, scan them, and email them to me? < 1260330287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait it's a US/british thing < 1260330325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have a print to file option? < 1260330338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so willful would in fact only mean what i interpreted it as, in us english? < 1260330367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse. if it is even that simple < 1260330405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those us/british spelling differences aren't always as clearcut as the dictionaries would seem to imply < 1260330412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, this is stupid < 1260330413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so i think < 1260330421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there no way to open a 1 GB uncompressed tar file on Windows? < 1260330430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without installing software? < 1260330445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should write one - in feather, naturally < 1260330463 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: printing to file doesn't help, i need the stuff on paper < 1260330464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, given that there isn't, why would anyone distribute Windows software in that form? < 1260330507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to get the thing in one file? < 1260330515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could have used .zip, though < 1260330520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, anything Windows actually handles < 1260330527 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows opens .zip? < 1260330544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260330547 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it just had some sort of compressed folder thing of its own < 1260330547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays < 1260330549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you not know? < 1260330555 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would i know < 1260330561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you used Windows < 1260330562 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably won't know tomorrow either < 1260330565 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, sure < 1260330567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I muddling you with someone else? < 1260330567 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the time < 1260330597 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just not interested in how specific programs work < 1260330601 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including oses < 1260330627 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the details feel theoretically interesting to me < 1260330649 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i recall compressing a folder once < 1260330659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"new compressed folder" just creates a zip file < 1260330668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nowadays" is a bit stretching it, given that (source: Wikipedia) Windows has included zip file support (under the "compressed folders" terminology) since 1998. < 1260330670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now is 2009. < 1260330691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not very many versions of Windows, though < 1260330705 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win98 is what i know most about, probably < 1260330707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98, ME, XP, 2003, Vista, 7. < 1260330740 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and 2000. < 1260330749 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a windows 2003? < 1260330759 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more of a server thing, I think. < 1260330794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows Server 2003 is the official name. But it's still arguably a version of Windows. < 1260330811 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that actually does sort of ring a bell < 1260330828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird, i'm not a serverologist < 1260330863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's there sort-of between XP and Vista. The internal version numbers are 5.2.something. < 1260330897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xp and vista are both 5.2.something? < 1260330905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vista's 6.0, Win7's 6.1 < 1260330914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP is 5.1.something, as far as I know; and Vista's 6.x. < 1260330921 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay right < 1260330924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I remember that precisely /because/ it's so ludicrous) < 1260330936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit bizarre that 7 is not 7 when it easily could've been. < 1260330945 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would've been kinda weird if they'd had the same whole number for vista and xp < 1260330954 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err whole number isn't a very good term for that is it < 1260330960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the reason is to support broken programs that check the version number with == rather than >= < 1260330961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd O_< < 1260331036 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was the whole point just the pun? < 1260331046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1260331066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*puns < 1260331166 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one is the watch thing? < 1260331182 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna break that down for me, i don't think it quite works < 1260331229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Film the one: "The Core is a 2003 science fiction disaster film -- concerns a team that has to drill to the center of the Earth and set off a series of nuclear explosions in order to restart the rotation of Earth's core." Film the other: "Sunshine is a 2007 British science fiction film -- with the Earth in peril from the dying Sun, the crew is sent to reignite the Sun with a massive stellar bomb, a nuclear device with the equivalent mass of Manhattan Island." < 1260331233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in doubt, blow it up. < 1260331300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I never noticed that my home dir was the same on the Windows and Linux systems here < 1260331327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also a film about prevent the sun from blowing up, or something < 1260331345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait you said that < 1260331394 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see what sunshine has to do with this < 1260331407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: also the subtitle pun < 1260331411 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't there a proof for these jokes, annoying trying to reverse-engineer them < 1260331423 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260331427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the hovertext but i don't think that's different from the main one < 1260331466 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which jokes? < 1260331484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sunshine is the film the xkcd description most reminds me of. Though maybe that's only because I've seen it and not seen that The Core film. < 1260331527 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in the hovertext "happening on my watch" works (barely imo), in the actual comic i don't think the watch thing works at all < 1260331531 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it even tries to < 1260331536 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: newest xkcd < 1260331549 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tend to need some instructions for this stuff < 1260331551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: you need to reread it i guess < 1260331571 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260331574 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1260331589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by that i mean everyone < 1260331605 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you cannot get it before the end pun is revealed < 1260331660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that message into the phone is a bit amusing < 1260331708 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is that guy is *for* daylight saving, is his point he wants to get to use the daylight saving feature on his watch? < 1260331768 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the phone message is a side joke referring to the fact movie people are pretty, afaiu, if it's a joke about the sun being hot, i don't understand it at all. < 1260331791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic (MWAHAHA) < 1260331855 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird how reluctant people are to explain jokes properly, don't you want me to share the good laugh! :\ < 1260331863 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh umm i'll read < 1260331867 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1260331871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S A TRAP < 1260331884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't you read the MWAHAHA < 1260331917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: puns don't work if you don't mostly get them yourselves? < 1260331929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*f < 1260331937 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course they do < 1260331961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a rhetorical question, you're not supposed to question it! < 1260332009 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was about to ask if there was a specific pun in that, but maybe i'll leave the subject of me being dense for now ;) < 1260332101 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i guess i finally understand how tvtropes can be addictive < 1260332119 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess the random articles i've tried to get hooked on didn't have enough terms < 1260332136 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terms need to be checked of course < 1260332149 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what's this tomato surprise now?" < 1260332225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you again on monday, then < 1260332338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just read these two < 1260332359 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you one of those people who can eat just one peanut, or something? < 1260332398 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally not < 1260332476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good. i was beginning to question your humanity, there < 1260332860 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260333823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why question that which you know does not exist? < 1260333929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must not have got the memo < 1260334215 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260334323 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a tvtrope about characters never fucking telling someone "i'll explain this later" when someone starts asking something, but they really need to do something < 1260334340 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happens in pretty much everything i watch, i'm like "tell him to fucking ask you tomorrow" < 1260334350 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no < 1260334355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cannot recall < 1260334448 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, except in rare cases, doesn't always work, although that never seems very plausible, sure people can say something like "you always say that", but, well, if that's true, then maybe the characters should've been less crappy friends in the past. < 1260334465 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be *except in rare cases; < 1260334496 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "no seriously this is life or death, i'll explain this tomorrow at 12:00" < 1260334508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiots < 1260334580 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i mean that would definitely work, not sure it was clear. < 1260335893 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: okay took almost an hour of my time < 1260335897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm impressed < 1260335931 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260335943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260335944 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia surfing is much more dangerous though < 1260335979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to me < 1260335989 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just because you already know everyhing < 1260335992 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*everything < 1260336018 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly because you don't want to know everything... well might be a bit of a stretch < 1260336025 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, have to go clean dog vomit -> < 1260336260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Or both!" < 1260336781 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both. < 1260336899 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you cleaned dog vomit or both? What's the other thing? < 1260337009 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually there were 4 puddles of vomit < 1260337201 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260338934 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1260338960 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-178-159.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260339568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most situations, holding someone's eyelids open, then shining bright lights into their eyes, then asking them lots of questions < 1260339579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be considered a torture, or at least a really nasty interrogation < 1260339585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why are opticians allowed to get away with it? < 1260339642 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard similar arguments about dentists < 1260339650 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mob < 1260339768 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260339984 0 :lifthrasiir!i=VSQ3CL8A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260340127 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260340927 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-111-204.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260340935 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1260342039 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Roger Penrose is the king of bullshit. He's got a fucking PhD in bullshit (and mathematics). However, since he actually understands quantum mechanics, he had to find another rug to sweep the details under: quantum gravity." < 1260342323 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you agree, because you don't, or other? < 1260342573 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that dude < 1260342577 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260343137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what dude? < 1260343224 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Quantum computers are not known to be able to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time." < 1260343650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260343657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't seem quite true from what I remember < 1260343667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260344696 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260345085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1260345161 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That statement needs clarification. < 1260345173 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum computers are not known to be able to solve /all/ NP-complete problems in polynomial time. < 1260345184 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are NP-complete problems which are solvable in polynomial time by quantum computers. < 1260345237 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC) < 1260345327 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1260345339 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know the definition of np-completeness? < 1260345375 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can't quantum computers do polynomial time reductions in polynomial time < 1260345378 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's NP-complete if it's in NP and it's NP-hard. It's NP-hard if all problems in NP can be reduced to it. < 1260345382 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hahah. < 1260345397 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I say the definition, clearly it's stupid to think that some NP-complete problems are and some aren't X-D < 1260345400 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't think that one through :P < 1260345415 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, certainly some NP problems are solvable in polynomial time on a quantum computer. < 1260345420 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah remembering stuff is dangerous < 1260345428 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, like doing nothing :P < 1260345450 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fleh, some NP-P problems. < 1260345497 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't find a reason to laugh at that, so it's probably true. < 1260345515 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone finds a quantum algorithm to do NP-hard problems then did they prove P=NP? < 1260345526 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean a P algorithm < 1260345541 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they find an quantum algorithm to solve NP problems in P < 1260345551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1260345557 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well can polynomial time runs on a quantum computer be simulated by polynomial runs on a tm? < 1260345558 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1260345564 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just prove that quantum computers are more powerful than they thought. < 1260345575 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more powerful than a turing machine? < 1260345577 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: No. < 1260345583 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: Yes. < 1260345587 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1260345590 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not more powerful per se < 1260345596 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they can, then that would prove P=NP, because you'd have an algorithm to solve the problem in polynomial time, just simulate the quantum algo. < 1260345596 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But able to compute more in less time. < 1260345599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260345600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260345617 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since everyone seems to think P <> NP, then the reasonable assumption is that quantum computers are stronger than normal computers? < 1260345617 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the question was mostly socratic method, i think < 1260345643 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: my questions? They were not socratic I was genuinely asking < 1260345647 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: In the sense that they can compute things in lower time bound, not in that they can compute more overall. < 1260345657 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: no i mean my question about the polynomial runs < 1260345667 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T.M.s are still valuable as a representation of all that can be computed, Q.C.s can just compute it faster. < 1260345670 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor answered it, i was sort of trying to make you answer your own question < 1260345687 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were asking him... < 1260345688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MUST ANSWER ALL. < 1260345695 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260345742 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it can only compute the same things.. it's still stronger than a turing machine though? < 1260345746 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: afaiu the quantum computing model is somewhere between determinism and nondeterminism, i haven't seen a formal definition for that stuff, and sadly i don't understand anything but that. < 1260345752 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's still a TM complexity class isn't it..... < 1260345755 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything that isn't formal < 1260345777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not more powerful, it's just faster. At least by the definition of computational power I'm used to. < 1260345827 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260345845 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can you make a random number generator on a quantum computer? < 1260345855 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: it's just as strong in the turing reduction sense, less strong using other reductions, like a polynomial time reduction, at least nondeterministic tm's < 1260345888 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im consfued.. < 1260345901 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that's an interesting point ... kinda. Quantum computers may be able to produce truly random numbers, which could arguably make them more powerful than a T.M. since the problem "produce a completely-random number" can be run on them but not a T.M. < 1260345905 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260345917 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Fuco < 1260345930 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still confused about the P vs NP thing < 1260345952 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can only compute tthe same set as the turing machine... but it can do it faster: Without proving P=NP < 1260345958 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems almost like a paradox < 1260345994 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np doesn't mean you do things faster < 1260346009 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means you do them in polynomial time in a different model of computation < 1260346026 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, nondeterministic Turing machines. < 1260346050 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know the actual algorithms you can write are the exact same, but in the known reductions, nondeterministic algorithms just map to deterministic algorithms that take a fuckload of time. < 1260346067 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I getting mixed up between computational models and complexity classes? < 1260346081 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are different things right? < 1260346090 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260346118 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually we define complexity classes as classes of languages that have some properties < 1260346128 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these properties can involve different computation models < 1260346160 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's quantum complexity classes < 1260346161 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the property defining P is "the problem of whether w \in L can be solved in polynomial time with a deterministic turing machine" < 1260346175 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do they exist? I mean aren't the nomal complexity classes good enough? < 1260346208 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the quantum complexity classes are not equal to any known complexity class, but they are studied, why not give them a name? < 1260346224 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why aren't they equal to the other classes < 1260346232 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can a new model of computation lead to new complexity classes < 1260346263 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the same reason that it's not necessarily true that P = NP < 1260346264 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just to give a more fine grained characterization so that we can observe the difference in 'speed' like that < 1260346271 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we define the steps the machine can take differently < 1260346276 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(between quantum computers and turing machine) < 1260346291 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so differently, that a polynomial amount of steps in the other can't necessarily be translated into a polynomial amount of steps in the other < 1260346318 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you could say that < 1260346323 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the speed thing < 1260346437 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there's probabilistic machines, which afaik give us completely separate classes again < 1260346464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346464 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346464 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346464 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346465 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346465 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346465 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346466 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346466 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346468 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346468 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346468 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346468 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260346495 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really know much complexity theory, it's fascinating, but we don't have courses about it atm, and i don't really have much time for anything outside courses and irc < 1260346495 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where by atm i mean ever. < 1260346502 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's just a language why are the different < 1260346521 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a prof did tell me today he might give a course in recursion theory if i managed to recruit more people interested in it < 1260346532 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: it's a class of languages < 1260346543 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a specific machine recognizes some language < 1260346555 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we define a class of them by taking all possible machines and seeing what they can do < 1260346582 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually given some restriction, like finite termination, termination on positive instances, termination in polynomial time... < 1260346605 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and by class i just mean a set < 1260346606 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :termination in polynomial time???? < 1260346645 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346645 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346647 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :termination in polynomial time. that's how P is defined, there's some polynomial that bounds the computation steps for an input of size n < 1260346686 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346686 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346686 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346686 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260346763 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P is defined as the set of all such languages L that there is some machine M that recognizes exactly L, and there's a polynomial p such that the machine M always halts in p(|w|) steps or less < 1260346766 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1260346785 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does machine have a definition? < 1260346791 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the polynomial can be specific to the machine M < 1260346803 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we define it as a deterministic turing machine in the case of P < 1260346816 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of NP, we take the exact same definition, but use nondeterministic turing machines < 1260346832 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not sure what it's supposed to do with negative instances < 1260346846 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said i don't know any complexity theory < 1260346857 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1260346863 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you might define say QP < 1260346876 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which replaces the turing machine with a quantum machine < 1260346878 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in any case it must recognize exactly the correct instances, and if the instance is positive, then it must halt in polynomial time. < 1260346883 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1260346884 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260346896 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question P = NP or QP = NP don't make sense..... < 1260346904 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's for different machines how can you compare < 1260346919 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probabilistic P, where you also have some sort of details about probabilities with which it succeeds < 1260346927 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P = NP makes sense, these are just sets of languages < 1260346964 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p contains stuff like {{"a", "b"}, a*b*c*, {"a", "aa", "aaa", ...}, ...} < 1260346971 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np also contains some languages < 1260346977 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just ask whether they contain the same languages < 1260346991 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where a*b*c* is a regexp defining a language) < 1260347010 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the definition of a language? A set of strings? < 1260347012 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity classes are sets of languages which are sets of words which are sequences of characters < 1260347013 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite? < 1260347016 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1260347028 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright then I suppose the questions make sense < 1260347033 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1260347040 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :words must be finite, languages and classes can be infinite < 1260347058 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact a language is considered trivial if it's finite. < 1260347091 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260347115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, this laptop is getting more and more broken < 1260347121 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-61.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260347130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the screen frame has got deformed somehow, and the screen doesn't shut as a result < 1260347153 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is there a proof that NP <> QP? < 1260347163 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I invented QP or if that's a real one... < 1260347249 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : QMAM: Quantum Merlin-Arthur-Merlin Public-Coin Interactive Proofs < 1260347269 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know the answer, but i think NP is a superset of QP, and QP is a superset of P, in which case we couldn't know, because then we'd also know P!=NP < 1260347318 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you prove P = QP and QP <> NP, or P <> QP and QP = NP, then you'd have solved the NP thing < 1260347358 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, assuming the chain of inclusion < 1260347367 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just basic set theory < 1260347391 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just sets of languages, remember < 1260347408 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" QNC: Quantum NC < 1260347408 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The class of decision problems solvable by polylogarithmic-depth quantum circuits with bounded probability of error. (A uniformity condition may also be imposed.) " < 1260347428 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's interesting a lot of the quantum stuff incorperates error bounds < 1260347442 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand that < 1260347444 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess what we really want is hooking up quantum computers with normal ones -- so we can check the outupts < 1260347466 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many things to learn, so little time... oh wait, i have tons of time left < 1260347497 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BQP: Bounded-Error Quantum Polynomial-Time < 1260347504 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:B#bqp < 1260347512 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BQP^BQP = BQP < 1260347516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means you can use subroutines < 1260347520 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1260347533 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, for a class C, C^C = C means you can use subroutines? < 1260347567 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arthur is a BQP (i.e. quantum) verifier who can exchange quantum messages with Merlin. So Arthur and Merlin's states may become entangled during the course of the protocol. < 1260347568 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260347569 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, usually A^B means you have an oracle that solves B in, say, one step, and you solve A given that oracle < 1260347684 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like P^NP = NP, in P^NP you can solve any problem in NP in one step, but a nondeterminitic turing machine can already do that. < 1260347697 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and NP^NP = NP < 1260347703 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1260347704 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think, at least, might be talking out of my ass, in which case i hope someone corrects this. < 1260347705 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260347712 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no in fact i don't think that's true... < 1260347720 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks < 1260347866 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eerr, hehe... < 1260347876 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an open question whether P^NP = NP < 1260347891 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437597.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260347939 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP \subset P^NP anyway... :) < 1260347994 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260348009 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fucking hell!!! < 1260348016 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 10 mins and we stumble over an open question < 1260348044 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I remember why I was too scared to study complexity theoryy befor < 1260348102 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/qchallenge.html < 1260348104 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ten Semi-Grand Challenges for Quantum Computing Theory < 1260348152 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah complexity theory is full of open stuff, and it's full of towers that might be completely useless, like the whole polynomial hierarchy < 1260348184 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :towers, as in, we have these infinite sequences A1, A2, ..., and it's not known whether we're actually just talking about one set < 1260348194 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260348211 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is we have tons of structure between these sets, it's just... it might all be just relations between the set and itself :P < 1260348293 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yay we solved the open problem of whether the complexity class A <= complexity class A with regard to this awesome reduction, using this awesome binary search technique" < 1260348354 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...at least, again, this is how i see it, mostly hearsay...) < 1260348407 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"After twelve years of effort, not only do we still not know whether BQP sits in the classical polynomial hierarchy, there's really no evidence either way" < 1260348421 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260348512 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do have courses about quantum computing, or at least one < 1260348521 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should probably take it < 1260348528 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION jelous < 1260348552 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a lot of computing stuff here, discrete math uni sorta < 1260348584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just found http://whybzrisbetterthanx.github.com/ < 1260348624 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again the materials for our real analysis course come from another university completely, and the professor who lectures the course doesn't even really do it. < 1260348643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, github are potentially biased < 1260348680 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok here's a good one "Is BQP = BPP^BQNC? In other words, can the "quantum" part of any quantum algorithm be compressed to polylog(n) depth, provided we're willing to do polynomial-time classical postprocessing?" < 1260348697 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is known to be true for Shor's algorithm.) < 1260348701 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...let me do some polynomial time classical postprocessing on that sentence for a while < 1260348708 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1260348727 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260348731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay i think i get it < 1260348749 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was true the implication is that it's easier to build quantum computers than currenlty though < 1260348751 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought < 1260348841 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... i don't know how they're currently built, so... < 1260348845 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god for them? :P < 1260348858 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*good < 1260348884 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something to do with physics and chemisty, I think.. not my domain < 1260348939 0 :boily!n=boily@poste61-170.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260348948 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mine either, although interest has arisen this year < 1260348953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for physics < 1260348957 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?? < 1260348958 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why ? < 1260348976 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... i don't really know... i have this problem that i find pretty much everything interesting. < 1260349001 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hardly find anything interesting < 1260349002 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used to be all of math and cs, but it's getting out of hand! < 1260349008 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just all < 1260349036 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with this quantum stuff it seems like knowing a good bit of physics is important for the computing bits < 1260349069 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i need to go read about mortality now < 1260349096 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't sound interesting < 1260349118 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's philosophy < 1260349125 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...of matrices < 1260349135 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?? < 1260349153 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those 3 things sound completely unrelated < 1260349155 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mortality of matrices means given a set of matrices, can you multiply them to zero < 1260349189 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1260349193 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1260349216 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this course, basically leading to proving gödel's incompleteness, although mortality is a much studied field in our uni < 1260349219 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1260349240 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares about proving godels incompleteness :/ < 1260349266 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i guess no one, but isn't it sort of something people are supposed to hear about? < 1260349324 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right, maybe it's the mortality problem that's the interesting one, and not the provability of statements < 1260349340 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought mortality was about death rates < 1260349357 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about that too < 1260349365 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::S < 1260349372 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terms can have many meanings < 1260349386 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in mathematics where every word has a separate mathematical meaning... < 1260349512 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260349532 0 :abasjueuygeg!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436399.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260349910 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260350045 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437599.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260350100 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260350966 0 :abasjueuygeg!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260351146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mortalitys could be some sort of "more philosophical" finishing moves in the Mortal Kombat games. They already have plain old fatalities, and a huge number of variants (animality, babality, brutality, friendship; probably some I don't know of), so why not a mortality too. < 1260351435 0 :facsimile!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260351460 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260351503 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260351519 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260351533 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260351539 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260352073 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the animation could be like a bunch of matrices around the dude that multiply towards it and finally implode into singularity < 1260352093 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does he die????? < 1260352126 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he becomes a total zero and everybody laughs at him < 1260354432 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year" is a famous unsolved problem in mathematics. < 1260354451 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been proven that we wish you either a merry Christmas or a happy new year, and most mathematicians believe we wish you both. < 1260354480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's been proven that we wish him a merry Christmas and that they wish you a happy new year. < 1260354493 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260354500 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I want a happy christmas and a merry new year? < 1260354503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any norwegians here? there are dubious reports of a giant UFO above the whole of norway < 1260354514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was wondering if someone would confirm or deny < 1260354518 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 I saw pics of it < 1260354533 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are a few papers about whether we wish you other time periods of other degrees of novelty and other enjoyabilities. < 1260354538 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've not seen it myself.... < 1260354553 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.pasteit4me.com/83001 < 1260354562 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OxE6: that would contradict the axiom of choice, but it's believed to be consistent with plain old ZF. < 1260354565 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some links to pics and news reports < 1260354600 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZF? < 1260354625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory. < 1260354645 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260354664 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260356413 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260356520 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260356581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> AnMaster: I just found http://whybzrisbetterthanx.github.com/ <-- heh < 1260356660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if I said something like that about git then ehird would get very angry and point out how irrelevant it was due to being opinion based. Yet I'm quite sure he won't act that way when it is about bzr < 1260356695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I've been having my own thoughts about writing VCSes < 1260356707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I should really go home < 1260356717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue is that the laptop screen's having hardware problems, and as a result the laptop no longer closes < 1260356720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really badly need a new computer < 1260356730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, cya < 1260356735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260356736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, get a new laptop then? < 1260356738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1260357612 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260357829 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260357898 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1260357981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Gregor> When I say the definition, clearly it's stupid to think that some NP-complete problems are and some aren't X-D < 1260358010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad you realized it. also glad that i didn't comment before reading on in the logs for once < 1260358066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:57:30 <Gregor> Fleh, some NP-P problems. < 1260358104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure whether any of the candidate problems are known not to be in P, even assuming P != NP < 1260358162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(factorization and discrete logarithm are the once i recall reading about) < 1260358167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ones < 1260358251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-P problems? XD < 1260358268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problems in NP not in P < 1260358270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> well can polynomial time runs on a quantum computer be simulated by polynomial runs on a tm? < 1260358283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was interpreting that as "NP minus P" problems. < 1260358283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's as unknown as P vs NP < 1260358300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Which suggests I'm not sure what. < 1260358313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the - is set difference, which is probably pronounced minus rather often < 1260358329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair 'nough. < 1260358399 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: quantumEd found that out < 1260358428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: well i've obviously gone back to commenting before finishing reading, haven't i :D < 1260358441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<quantumEd> since everyone seems to think P <> NP, then the reasonable assumption is that quantum computers are stronger than normal computers? < 1260358463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's _a_ reasonable assumption, but i'm not sure there's a clear implication either way < 1260358474 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i really don't know anything about quantum computing, not all my questions were socratic method < 1260358482 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were also "i have no idea" < 1260358500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in quantum computers _could_ be simulated in P even if P != NP, but they might also require PSPACE which is harder than NP... < 1260358515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*could possibly < 1260358554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all unsolved problems iirc < 1260358577 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260358615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Gregor> T.M.s are still valuable as a representation of all that can be computed, Q.C.s can just compute it faster. < 1260358678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck T.M.'s aren't that good for fine-grained complexity anyway, because they don't have random access memory so you might get a quadratic overhead to use memory < 1260358719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although all the "big" questions that i know about care only about polynomials, so aren't that fine-grained < 1260358720 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinitely addressble random access memory would certainly be cool :) < 1260358738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subleq may be a good model for that < 1260358769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstractly < 1260358772 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, whoa; Debian unstable's updating VirtualBox from 3.0 to the recent 3.1, which *finally* adds: "VM states can now be restored from arbitrary snapshots instead of only the last one, and new snapshots can be taken from other snapshots as well ("branched snapshots"; see the manual for more information)" < 1260358824 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260358943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> quantumEd: afaiu the quantum computing model is somewhere between determinism and nondeterminism, i haven't seen a formal definition for that stuff, and sadly i don't understand anything but that. < 1260358994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's a different kind of nondeterminism than NP, with adding (superpositions) of quantum states and all, so not obviously contained either way as i said < 1260358997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also a couple other nice changes; virtio-net support for guests to sidestep the silly "emulate a real network card" and live migration of VMs between hosts, for example.) < 1260359033 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260359100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSPACE might be considered a higher form of nondeterminism than both (arbitrary mixing of existential and universal quantification is the essence of the PSPACE-complete problem QBF (quantified (nothing to do with quantum) boolean formula) < 1260359107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1260359181 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1260359199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_quantified_Boolean_formula < 1260359200 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can we also define pspace with an alternating turing machine < 1260359211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1260359414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the wp article on the latter seems to imply so < 1260359460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AP = PSPACE) < 1260359744 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<quantumEd> how can a new model of computation lead to new complexity classes < 1260359778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many complexity classes are simply what you get when adding resource bound measurements to a computational model < 1260359847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L, P, PSPACE you get from adding it to ordinary deterministic turing machines < 1260359858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NL, NP with nondeterministic ones < 1260359886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are believed to be different. so why shouldn't quantum models give yet another set < 1260359906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PSPACE = NPSPACE but that is a theorem which needed proof) < 1260360141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:20:16 <oklofok> in the case of NP, we take the exact same definition, but use nondeterministic turing machines < 1260360144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:20:32 <oklofok> well i'm not sure what it's supposed to do with negative instances < 1260360162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you switch positive and negative, you get the class co-NP instead < 1260360205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :co-SPACE = SPACE is another nice theorem... < 1260360229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1260360238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :co-NSPACE = NSPACE < 1260360368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes he is repeating some of what oklofok said < 1260360391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, except oklofok actually explained in some detail < 1260360442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> i don't know the answer, but i think NP is a superset of QP, and QP is a superset of P, in which case we couldn't know, because then we'd also know P!=NP < 1260360452 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that one i think i contradicted ;D < 1260360619 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260360619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> like P^NP = NP, in P^NP you can solve any problem in NP in one step, but a nondeterminitic turing machine can already do that. < 1260360627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklofok> i think, at least, might be talking out of my ass, in which case i hope someone corrects this. < 1260360633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed :D < 1260360640 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260360701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's connected with the unsolved NP = co-NP problem, i think < 1260360739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically NP cannot obviously use itself as a subroutine because there is no way to utilize a "no" result < 1260360787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if NP = co-NP then you can convert between yes and no, so you get a way around that < 1260360812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in that case the polynomial hierarchy collapses iirc < 1260360928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm not quite sure about that, should goolge < 1260360932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gl < 1260361243 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260361307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah i cannot find a clear statement in any of wp articles i checked < 1260361317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the < 1260361456 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok that one i think i contradicted ;D <<< but unfortunately so did quantumEd :P < 1260361461 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1260361481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes he did, i just got to it < 1260361485 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was not QP, i think it was some other character mess < 1260361496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<quantumEd> "After twelve years of effort, not only do we still not know whether BQP sits in the classical polynomial hierarchy, there's really no evidence either way" < 1260361496 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1260361507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the NP vs. P^NP thing i googled myself :D < 1260361537 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed BQP was what you meant by QP < 1260361552 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: basically NP cannot obv..." <<< oh lol that should've been obvious, thanks < 1260361561 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what you get for not knowing the exact definition < 1260361596 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: if you switch positive and negative, you get the class co-NP instead" <<< this doesn't tell me what the machine does with negative instances, does it? < 1260361612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1260361639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nondeterministic turing machine answers "yes" if there is any path which gives a yes answer, "no" otherwise < 1260361644 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah i prolly meant BQP < 1260361651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the co-classes reverse that < 1260361675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same as switching existential and universal quantification < 1260361684 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how fast does it answer no? < 1260361697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260361706 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it just not halt? < 1260361717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know the polynomial bound, then there is no reason not to cut off after you get to it, regardless < 1260361728 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in cook's original reduction he said it returns false right away iirc < 1260361736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260361774 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay i've read a version of it that uses a more traditional model of a computer < 1260361793 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to think after all this time i don't know exactly what NP means :D < 1260361793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also the answer checking version... < 1260361805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are equivalent < 1260361858 0 :iamcal!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260361874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i am pretty sure assuming the machine has the same time available whether it answers yes or no gives the right class < 1260361909 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i suppose it's enough that it accepts stuff in polynomial time, and doesn't accept the wrong stuff < 1260361931 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for proofs... would just make it easier to think of it as an actual machine if i had any idea what it actually does for other instances < 1260361957 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1260361965 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260361974 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said, if you know the polynomial bound, you can just cut off once it is reached, say by adding a time counter to your machine < 1260361987 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260361994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't get anything more general < 1260362001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260362007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: indeed < 1260362008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it hours ago < 1260362010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1260362017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me? < 1260362020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it about again? ;D < 1260362024 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is calculating the time bound a computable function though? < 1260362025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260362029 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean just out of interest < 1260362038 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't change the argument if it isn't < 1260362047 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260362082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: well in a sense no, it could involve a constant you don't know... < 1260362129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for proofs, you can just start with the assumption a polynomial bound exists < 1260362135 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sure < 1260362174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you are doing something meta over many problem instances, i am sure this subtlety _can_ trip you up somehow then :D < 1260362221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah nazis it was < 1260362240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ein little bischen romance < 1260362255 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :klein is small < 1260362261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bisschen < 1260362273 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :little was a bigger typo imo < 1260362275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: i was not attempting perfect german here < 1260362282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does bisschen mean? < 1260362286 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little < 1260362293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't fit into the theme anyway :D < 1260362309 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ein bisschen" is like "a bit" < 1260362318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for proper german i would leave out the "little" < 1260362327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bisschen already implies it < 1260362372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually this should be sz but that is awkward on this keyboard) < 1260362373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err klein being small would be more "common knowledge" wouldn't it? < 1260362391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well to non-german speakers perhaps... < 1260362400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that is what I meant yeah < 1260362401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260362415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, after all everyone surely knows about Eine kleine Nachtmusik? < 1260362422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure about caps there) < 1260362545 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're correct < 1260362551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1260362558 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nouns are caps < 1260362590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was more wondering about the "kleine", since it's a title < 1260362645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes the top google results are inconsistent, but wp doesn't use caps for it < 1260362669 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just an english thing < 1260362683 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe american < 1260362684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my german is rusty < 1260362919 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260362931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> are there any norwegians here? there are dubious reports of a giant UFO above the whole of norway < 1260362934 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? < 1260362946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot say i noticed while walking home today :D < 1260363009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err when was that? < 1260363015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be bad timing, they have put out a lot of anti-aircraft batteries for obama's visit tomorrow ;D < 1260363041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, put them out where? < 1260363044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:28:23 lof time < 1260363047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*log < 1260363048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lof? < 1260363053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is offset? < 1260363059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beijing time < 1260363071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changed the other day from something US < 1260363077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "huh" < 1260363088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+8 GMT < 1260363092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*UTC < 1260363128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, around oslo, in case of any terrorist airplane hijackings < 1260363178 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well or airplanes anyway < 1260363249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm there is just one news story in those links mentioned there: dailymail < 1260363256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I remember that is untrustable < 1260363266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm no expert on UK news papers < 1260363269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh :D < 1260363309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the daily mail article looks like a joke < 1260363312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1260363314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "whole of norway" could very well be just one town before rumors spread < 1260363351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it said "northern norway" there < 1260363367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1260363370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Tromsø is mentioned. < 1260363422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and trøndelag, which is here < 1260363458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260363460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260363468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION launches google earth < 1260363545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which place with that name? < 1260363567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sør-Trondelag? Slightly south of Trondheim? < 1260363569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1260363571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260363575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what? < 1260363584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sør-Trøndelag is the county containing Trondheim < 1260363600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster: is your name oerjan? < 1260363603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yeah what? < 1260363624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you comment about monkey "language" not being TC? < 1260363625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no but I was confused by that it wasn't followed by anything else on the line? < 1260363629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to check norwegian newspaper < 1260363632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1260363655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: is tht a statement or a question < 1260363655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: because Gregor made an Ook joke and i followed along < 1260363663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok. < 1260363678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, either < 1260363711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you dont think that human language is TC < 1260363712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260363742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it's the top story at vg.no < 1260363752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vagino! < 1260363768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :italian for "male vagina"! < 1260363776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's short for "verdens gang" (although no one uses the long form these days) < 1260363796 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verdens gang? < 1260363798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :word gang? < 1260363819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm gang is hard to translate idiomatically < 1260363830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verdens = of the world < 1260363837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260363838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wordly gang < 1260363843 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vagino < 1260363863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: yes. < 1260363868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally it means walk, movement < 1260363884 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a large one a vaginissimo, and a small one is a vaginino! < 1260363889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just had a new idea for silly warranty/license combination < 1260363933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the shrink-wrapped package there is a paper with the text "warranty void if shrink wrapping is broken" < 1260364030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it seems to be genuine < 1260364050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, huh really? < 1260364095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as in people really have seen something < 1260364225 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you could write an interesting story around that < 1260364264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*seen and taken videos of something < 1260364296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our "experts" suspect a russian rocket < 1260364336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/missile < 1260364349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is happy irssi didn't know how to run that command < 1260364403 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where like < 1260364430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what? < 1260364506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vg.no/nyheter/vaer/artikkel.php?artid=596439 includes video < 1260364549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry brb < 1260364617 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is it? < 1260364636 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a rocket they don' whirl :/ < 1260364730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speculation is it could be a rocket spiraling out of control < 1260364756 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALIENS < 1260365463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what does "selv" mean? < 1260365689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that Google translate for Norwegian → Swedish is quite a lot better than usually, but still far from good < 1260365716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :self < 1260365735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? < 1260365737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense < 1260365739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"skyldes en russisk rakett, selv om det ennĂĄ ikke er offisielt bekreftet." < 1260365741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that < 1260365743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260365745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1260365756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so one word means self and even? < 1260365757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260365762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260365774 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260365828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "kilder"? < 1260365844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and "Ifølge" < 1260365853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the context "Ifølge kilder i den russiske TV-kanalen Russia Today" < 1260365876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sources, according to < 1260365882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1260365904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "själv om" doesn't mean "even if" in swedish? < 1260365922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" benektet en talsmann for at de visste noe om en rakettoppskyting." < 1260365923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260365927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google translate fails there < 1260365932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nekade en talesman att de inte visste nĂĄgot om en raket lansering. " < 1260365945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect < 1260365955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit too much negation? < 1260365963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, exactly < 1260365970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is it in the original too? < 1260365977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unable to tell < 1260365982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just "benektet" is negative < 1260366022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the benefit of English speaking users: "denied that they knew anything" turned into "denied that they didn't know anything" basically < 1260366023 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1260366029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so the idea is like < 1260366055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe in some future world companies will just do this shit with license-violated-if-plastic-is-broken < 1260366062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theyll take it to the extreme where the license is INSIDE the plastic < 1260366076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in its OWN plastic so youd have to break the plastic to read the license < 1260366106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then some smart guy down in econometrics realizes, well, who cares then if we just leave out the actual inner material for the license < 1260366114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just let the license sheet be blank, but for the front page < 1260366119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll save a boatload of money < 1260366159 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eventually theyre just selling software or whatever without licenses < 1260366176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> but theyll take it to the extreme where the license is INSIDE the plastic <-- yes I said that far < 1260366178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this leads to some humor and a doctorowesque tragedy-of-copyright-law thing < 1260366204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, nice < 1260366234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "hevder fenomenet kan komme fra en lyskaster"? < 1260366239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially that last word < 1260366384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wp crosslink gives me "stage lighting instrument" < 1260366436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm floodlight < 1260366449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(section on that crosslinked page) < 1260366474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, other theory: < 1260366489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm could be spotlight too < 1260366498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ufo, and government trying to hush it up and failing to coordinate the hushing up with Russia. < 1260366519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah right < 1260366529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is there a video somewhat watchable? Like youtube or youtube? < 1260366548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was wrong with the video on that page? < 1260366559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no javascript, no flash < 1260366583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the article mentioned youtube so probably < 1260366693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I found was quite a fail < 1260366702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks nothing like those static pictures < 1260366764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not terribly interested < 1260366794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, missile does sound plausible *shrug* < 1260366846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it is high enough up in the atmosphere it could easily be illuminated by the sun < 1260366849 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might check out the thread on the reddit front page. if you can read _that_ < 1260366878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hasn't reached that yet though < 1260366959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah... much of that region probably has no sunlight this time of year < 1260367132 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear god not over here as well < 1260367143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: what? < 1260367163 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that lights in Norway < 1260367203 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boo! < 1260367247 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, I don't mind really < 1260367657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oerjan> might check out the thread on the reddit front page. if you can read _that_ <-- which one on there < 1260367684 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-118-178-159.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260367752 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260367753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/actjs/mystery_as_spiral_blue_light_display_hovers_above/ < 1260367763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the one i see on the front page < 1260367778 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260367784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait duh < 1260367797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/acp3d/strange_spiral_phenomenon_appearing_on_the_sky_in/ is much larger < 1260367803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs glasses < 1260367845 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definitely a rocket gone awry" < 1260367943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok when i suggested the reddit thread it was in case there were further video links there, maybe i should have mentioned that < 1260367969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual discussion can be ... variable ... < 1260367985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i still haven't looked at it myself, mind you < 1260368397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm 255 points, first I wondered why reddit was using unsigned char for the vote < 1260368405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before I realized it probably wasn't max < 1260368406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260368580 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260368767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260372710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260372968 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260376769 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260376938 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260377443 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1260378063 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My guess is a semi-failed fireworks experiment. :) < 1260378238 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :failed?? peopel around the world saw it! < 1260378247 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a semi-win if nothing :P < 1260378714 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260378736 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260379946 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260380522 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260380553 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279283419.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260382265 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1260383080 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260383088 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260383214 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260383222 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260384273 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260386410 0 :oklokok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260386573 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260386573 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260386573 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260386625 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260386639 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-178-159.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260386639 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260386711 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-7.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260386796 0 :augur!n=augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260387311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260388156 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260388227 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260388228 0 :OxE6|!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-7.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260388236 0 :OxE6|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260388438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260388463 0 :augur!n=augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260390970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260392785 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260393405 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260393453 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260393816 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260394167 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260395248 0 :Guest67800!n=mu@wsip-68-224-216-12.br.no.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260395270 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260395297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1260395461 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260395498 0 :Guest67800!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260397010 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260398272 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260401594 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello augur < 1260401611 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1260401875 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the following is legal C++0x: struct foo { long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const f(); }; fun < 1260401885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260401908 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replace f with operator long const int volatile long unsigned < 1260401940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, no it's not < 1260401942 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1260401954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the longest chain of nonredundant keywords possible is < 1260402894 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260403613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const f()? Man. That's quite impressive. < 1260403633 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: could string "operator" in there too < 1260403636 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. operator foo() < 1260403640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260403642 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator +() < 1260403683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const operator !(void) const; // Maybe? < 1260403712 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know < 1260403815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long inline int explicit unsigned volatile virtual long const operator and (); < 1260403821 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically "and" is not a keyword < 1260403902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess if you count those, you could just have an arbitrary pointer expression constructed with bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand bitand... i; to dereference it umpteen billion times < 1260403906 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/de// < 1260403923 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you can do that with keywords to! < 1260403933 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, c++ < 1260403945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do ... ; while(1); while(1); ... < 1260404503 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`haskell do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do 2 < 1260404504 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260404586 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260405092 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :höhö do do < 1260408313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: x: goto x; goto x; ... < 1260408748 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260409185 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260409235 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int(*p)(int,int,int,int,int,int,int,int,int,...,int,int);? < 1260409530 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those all have some non-whitespace punctuation/non-keywordy stuff, unlike the do do do do do re mi wait I got sidetracked. < 1260410988 0 :Guest67800!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260413656 0 :Guest67800!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260414205 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260414671 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260415786 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260418003 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260420150 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-16-130.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260420842 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260421966 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260424802 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260425583 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-ledurksbvqrtrizd JOIN :#esoteric < 1260425972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 180 seconds < 1260427757 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279283419.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260427965 0 :AirCastle!i=inhahe@adsl-074-186-083-219.sip.mia.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260428466 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260428616 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-11-89.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260428731 0 :Guest67800!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260429830 0 :Guest67800!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260430013 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260430089 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260430983 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260431894 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260431999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260432000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260433492 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437556.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260436301 0 :Guest67800!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260436307 0 :Guest67800!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mu < 1260436309 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260436373 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282221.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260436376 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260438735 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260440093 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260440477 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@67-208-6-119.ip.tor.radiant.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260440582 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260440597 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-2-164.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260441386 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@67-208-6-119.ip.tor.radiant.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260441493 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260443002 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260443508 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260444604 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260448932 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260449854 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260450272 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260450947 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260452869 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260453076 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260453815 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260454096 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260455978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260455986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it hours ago < 1260455993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me what it was about? < 1260456000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no _you_ remind me < 1260456007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I read it hours ago too < 1260456011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around noon I think < 1260456020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess we'll never know, then < 1260456032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I remember < 1260456039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cue* gasp < 1260456054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it Steve and Terry? < 1260456073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1260456116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes. i somehow thought that was yesterday. < 1260456198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hah! found out your secret then! < 1260456202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time travel! < 1260456219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains how you can always had read it hours ago < 1260456253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't always have read it hours ago < 1260456262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides, you started it < 1260456272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, started what? < 1260456281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"read it hours ago" < 1260456286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh maybe I did < 1260456294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was true though < 1260456300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so was this < 1260456312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course *wink* < 1260456333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say no more! < 1260456378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but ... won't that kill the channel? < 1260456419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes indeed it would. Evil mirror universe fizzie is trying to trick you < 1260456426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1260456445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls a scifi story about evil mirror beings < 1260456479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, isn't that one of those required things if you have any sort of parallel universes? < 1260456480 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they actually went _through_ mirrors though < 1260456492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you got to have dragons in novel length fantasy < 1260456506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(short stories are not subject to these rules) < 1260456516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, it is optional there) < 1260456518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was a planet that had removed all mirrors after getting rid of them the first time < 1260456531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oerjan> they actually went _through_ mirrors though <-- Alice through the looking glass < 1260456539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even water ponds did not reflect there < 1260456559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what did they add to the water to make that happen? < 1260456613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea, it was not exactly hard scifi < 1260456617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not a dragon, it's a dragaeran. < 1260456627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i read it > 20 years ago, i think < 1260456649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh? < 1260456668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gabe: How about the fact every person in this book is some kind of dragon? < 1260456668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tycho: Not dragons *per se*. Technically, they're Dragaerans. < 1260456668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gabe: That's fair. Let's say I were to... chokeaeran you. Would you appreciate the distinction?" < 1260456685 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/06/14/ < 1260456696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260457356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no long story arcs in that one right? < 1260457367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prefers comics that have a long story < 1260457382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than one story per day or such < 1260457436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, no. < 1260457443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? < 1260457459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yes, you are correct; there are no long story arcs in that comic." < 1260457469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "no.."? < 1260457485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260457486 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"*Yes*, you are correct; there are *no* long story arcs in that comic." < 1260457486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260457512 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a couple of occasions they've done continuity over multiple strips, but never more than a couple. < 1260457514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style pa < 1260457514 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) < 1260457523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Wouldn't you agree? < 1260457523 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the year was 1942. fighting was intense in the streets of... why are you looking for? < 1260457541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a strange name for a place. < 1260457542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why are you looking for" < 1260457555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who and what < 1260457560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why that's a new one < 1260457583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not stranger than for example Mount Lookatthat, though "what" would work better. < 1260457611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that mountain exists? < 1260457624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Larry Niven books. < 1260457628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not in real world. < 1260457675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's nowhere near Your Finger You Fool? < 1260457768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, :D < 1260457769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the planet NowWhat, named after the opening words of the first settlers to arrive. (In the Hitchhiker books. With the capital city OhWell.) < 1260457786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I forgot that < 1260457787 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing the "Your Finger You Fool" thing written down somewhere too. < 1260457791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which book < 1260457795 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fifth. < 1260457796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, discworld < 1260457822 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the place with the boghogs. < 1260457868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, with the what? < 1260457876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION never liked the fifth book < 1260457901 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"-- the major activities pursued on NowWhat were those of catching, skinning and eating NowWhattian boghogs, which were the only extant form of animal life on NowWhat, all other having long ago died of despair." < 1260457908 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To quote Adams himself, it's a bleak book. < 1260457941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was it the alternative earth thingy < 1260457965 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Well, the place that were in the place Earth should've been. < 1260457971 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are the boghogs the one who only communicate by biting each other hard? < 1260457978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: On the thigh, yes. < 1260458004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Life on NowWhat being what it was, most of what a boghog might have to say about it could easily be signified by these means." < 1260458054 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think that part is very funny. < 1260458075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly, though the part with the boghog-killing is a bit depressing. < 1260458102 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260458202 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have forgot that part, luckily it seems. < 1260458401 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260458954 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260459121 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260459369 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260459898 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260459956 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260460173 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260460176 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260460571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1260460576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1260460952 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279283138.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260461205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1260461213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the language that has time travel? < 1260461223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that one of you guyses < 1260461236 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a bunch? < 1260461241 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather? < 1260461258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twoducks < 1260461272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whos language is feather? < 1260461284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523's < 1260461294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1260461299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not published < 1260461304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or finished < 1260461315 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a pretty cheap idea < 1260461321 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could tack time travel onto any language < 1260461335 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd like to see a time travel monad in haskell < 1260461370 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not liable to ever be finished < 1260461379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im pretty sure that monads already count as time travel < 1260461389 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1260461394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually only in one direction :) < 1260461395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, not compared to Feather < 1260461399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a guy who talked about representing monadic operations visually < 1260461404 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Feather, you get to retroactively modify the compiler < 1260461422 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how the behavior of monads looks a lot like you're performing computations on values and spitting out answers before you even have the values < 1260461723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen a backwards state monad... < 1260462194 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: how is that even computable? < 1260462210 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: No clue < 1260462478 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260462715 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260464222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260464564 0 :augur!n=augur@pool-96-231-169-236.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260464824 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think monads are like time travel. < 1260464903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. monads are like boxes filled with chocolate. belgian. < 1260465144 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :radioactive chocolate burritos < 1260465173 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260465223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's arrows < 1260465247 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, arrows. I've forgotten about those. < 1260465304 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrows < 1260465348 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the primitives? (a :-> b) -> (b :-> c) -> (a :-> c), (a -> b) -> (a :-> b), and (a :-> b) -> ((a,c) :-> (b,c))? < 1260465478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you listed (>>>), arr and first iirc < 1260465537 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backwards state monad is computable, it makes essential use of lazyness < 1260465564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260465568 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elephant has not got time travel but maybe something similar < 1260465581 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I remember reading something on the esolang wiki about time travel though < 1260465655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh they've added a Category superclass < 1260465884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like those are the minimal set < 1260466036 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260466932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads aren't like boxes filled with chocolate. Monads are like Schroedinger's cat in a box. ... Or something like that. < 1260466959 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, the point is that you observe it and then it calculates the state. < 1260467097 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks pikhq did not get the joke < 1260467103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/ may help < 1260468570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that. < 1260468581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, chocolate. < 1260469324 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260470260 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260471783 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260472581 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260474666 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260474836 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260475626 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260476212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260477307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260477314 0 :augur!n=augur@pool-96-231-169-236.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260478140 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heisenburgers.com - Certain about good taste. < 1260479690 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260480217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260480751 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260480801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to comment that Oleg's C++ is the most amazing thing I have ever read. < 1260480835 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-16-130.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260480904 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that so < 1260481071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functional C++. < 1260481097 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambdas in C++0x! < 1260481125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... He does it in current C++. < 1260481145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, it's just more verbose and yucky that way :( < 1260481152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, it's pretty awesome < 1260481156 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when combined with templates < 1260481168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is basically the only way to do it, but still) < 1260481209 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260481209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that's not even functional programming in the template system... < 1260481218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He just defines classes with operator(). < 1260481233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And defines macros to make that sane. < 1260481321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Granted, you still need some templates for passing lambdas to functions. Not as crazy as you'd expect. < 1260481984 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260482001 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just looking at the page about Timefuck today < 1260482086 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1260482094 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is in the wiki < 1260482306 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was also thinking about self-modifying codes in video DSPs, today, too. < 1260482710 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I noticed that the CPUID program I wrote won't work on the anarchy golf server < 1260482724 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It outputs all null bytes if run there) < 1260483258 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260483435 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2000,{{`1/sq%A+}F91=}^Pa < 1260483484 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gnivaeL" < 1260485628 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260486230 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1260487479 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260488343 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260496986 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260496986 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260497117 0 :Cyndaquil!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260497134 0 :Cyndaquil!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1260499484 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-82-17.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260500095 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260500440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260503183 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260503323 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260504370 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260507291 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what else than just XHRs it let to do... < 1260507336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consume a lot of CPU? < 1260507355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JavaScript is relatively well sandboxed; ofc, there'd be more of a problem if another bug let the JS escape the sandbox < 1260507385 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such bugs are almost certainity. < 1260507386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, hearing about a tarball exploit is kind-of funny, just like hearing about image file exploits in Windows < 1260507445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260507447 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And being able to do arbitrary XHR, its not bound by same-origin. And then one wonders what other nonstandard permissions it has. < 1260507463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same-origin hardly makes a lot of sense, given that it's a tarball < 1260507484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... same origin would presumably mean the local filesystem, I /hope/ it can't XHR there < 1260507506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the URL is a file:// URL, does XHR ever let you do that? < 1260507508 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Applying same-origin here would disallow XHR completely. < 1260507536 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it would only allow file:// and those can't be XHR'd to. < 1260507564 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260507615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I'm glad that file:// can't be XHR'd to < 1260507615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously glad < 1260507624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders if IE knows that < 1260507842 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: AFAIK, XHR'ing file:// makes as much sense as sending form to file:// URL. < 1260507862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I can understand what the semantics of the first should be < 1260507905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides, you /can/ send forms to file:// URLs, if you have a file whose name ends ?key1=value1&key2=value2, etc) < 1260507934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the issue is you need a separate file for each possible form input) < 1260507947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... now I want to invent a really weird filesystem driver that effectively creates a CGI filesystem < 1260509150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1260509166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, certain filenames automatically do weird things < 1260509175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just get a static file from disc, it's auto-generated, for instance < 1260509179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of like /proc, but different < 1260509205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260509208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is XHR? < 1260509223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XmlHttpRequest < 1260509227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260509240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it makes an HTTP request from inside JavaScript running on a browser < 1260509247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the XML part is completely irrelevant, presumably there for historical reasons < 1260509255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used for AJAX < 1260509261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, likewise, may not actually involve XML < 1260509266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260509428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm what is a good algorithm for collision detection between 2D circles? < 1260509451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculate the distance between their centres (using pythagoras) < 1260509453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's less than the sum of their radii, they collided < 1260509458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this works in any number of dimensions < 1260509472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circles are particularly easy shapes to do collision detection with :) < 1260509473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah good idea < 1260509500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about a circle and a rectangle? < 1260509509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bit harder < 1260509519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the rectangle may be rotated btw < 1260509526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to find what point on the rectangle is closest to the centre of the circle, by comparing coordinates < 1260509530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then measure the distance to that < 1260509531 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that circle collision one is neat, I've used that before < 1260509541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, first you determine where the centre of the circle is, in the rectangle's coordinate system < 1260509550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1260509550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you see whether it's nearest one of the corners or one of the sides < 1260509556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: so have I < 1260509562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was really young at the time < 1260509681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about collision detection of two circles to make them bounce realistically against each other? < 1260509691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, calculating which directions they will bounce off in < 1260509701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they may have different speeds and may not collide head on < 1260509708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :collision detection to see whether they hit each other < 1260509714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260509719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, you do the coefficient of restitution algorithms < 1260509728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm? < 1260509733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather neatly, if the balls are perfectly elastic you can just swap the momentums of the two balls < 1260509740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if they aren't, you need to do a bit of A-level mechanics < 1260509756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "A-level"? < 1260509770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the exams people in the UK do just before they go to university < 1260509775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260509798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, perfectly elastic sounds fine here < 1260509825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about perfectly inelastic < 1260509843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you average the momentums, and both balls move at that average < 1260509855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they stay stuck next to each other forever, if it's perfectly inelastic < 1260510270 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just swap their momenta; that's only if they hit head-on. < 1260510435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for glancing blows it works < 1260510445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't reverse the momenta < 1260510449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you swap them between the two circles < 1260510468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what if one is moving faster and hit the other straight from behind? < 1260510481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from straight* < 1260510490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the one in front ends up moving faster, and the one behind ends up movign slower < 1260510494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*moving < 1260510494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is correct < 1260510543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what if one is static and unmovable (say, forming part of the scenery? < 1260510558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that's a different situation < 1260510562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1260510580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :effectively, there are /two/ collisions involved there: circle with circle, and circle with fixed background < 1260510582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say a circle bouncing against the edge of the simulation < 1260510585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which changes the situation quite a bit < 1260510607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no, I meant just a circle and the background < 1260510618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a circle bouncing against a fixed straight line, you just mirror its motion around that line, then translate by the diameter of the circle < 1260510620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably just the screen edges < 1260510629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1260510634 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, basically, the only physical reason something wouldn't move is that it's held in place < 1260510640 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe I'm not sure what you mean by swapping them. < 1260510646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're trying to model the physics, you have to model what's holding it in place < 1260510657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: before the collision, circle a has velocity v_a, circle b has velocity v_b < 1260510666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afterwards, circle a has velocity v_b, circle b has velocity v_a < 1260510673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I'm not exactly. I'm trying to model a semi-realistic game of pong with multiple balls and gravity < 1260510687 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then for glancing blows, they'll move exactly as if they had hit head-on. < 1260510700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: no, because the velocities are different < 1260510707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a glancing blow, the velocities are similar beforehand < 1260510709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're similar afterwards < 1260510726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas for a head-on collision, the velocities change by a lot because they were very different beforehand < 1260510733 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe we're not using "glancing blow" the same way. < 1260510734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same formula, different effects < 1260510745 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider a glancing blow when they're moving in opposite directions. < 1260510746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I see what you mean now < 1260510754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, you have to allow for that case < 1260510764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what happens in that case then? < 1260510781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong formula? < 1260510784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260510790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I gave was a simplification < 1260510798 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have to decompose the momenta into two components and swap only one component. < 1260510802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260510808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1260510820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION currently tracks it as delta_x and delta_y < 1260510833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it would be easier if AnMaster just learnt basic mechanics < 1260510835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ease of calculating next position < 1260510837 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what to call those components. < 1260510855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I forgot the stuff due to having a bad teacher in high school < 1260510872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it's the components normal to the shared tangent that are swapped < 1260510879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the components parallel to the shared tangent that stay the same < 1260510881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst physics teacher ever < 1260510905 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1260510916 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why I know this stuff. >.> < 1260510923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst physics teacher ever, generated small black holes everywhere. < 1260510934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I said previously assumed there was no component parallel to the shared tangent, which ofc isn't true in practice < 1260510937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260510952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you're trying to be really realistic with the physics, though, you'd model the effects of spin too < 1260510957 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it more assumed that the components parallel to the shared tangent were identical. < 1260510963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people use that a lot in actual table tennis < 1260510965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not going that far < 1260510969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ah,yes < 1260510970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ah, yes < 1260510972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or maybe < 1260510973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260510977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for the initial version anyway < 1260510985 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. as far as momentum went, the system was symmetrical. < 1260511008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it isn't like the way the ball collides with the paddle is very realistic anyway in pong < 1260511069 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivia: if a small black hole were charged, it would quickly absorb a particle of the opposite charge and become uncharged; if it were uncharged, it would hardly do anything. Assuming, as a worst-case scenario, that Hawking radiation doesn't work. < 1260511112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, even if it does, it's unlikely to evaporate instantly < 1260511116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just very quickly < 1260511118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, who broke it? < 1260511145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would that radiation be harmful? < 1260511158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eliezer Yudkowsky. < 1260511165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, argh XD < 1260511166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there wouldn't be enough of it to measure unless you had an LHC-quality radiation detector < 1260511185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although IIRC it would probably be in the gamma region, so theoretically harmful if you had enough of it < 1260511190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up with that name < 1260511194 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it depends on the size. How much mass is emitted by a light bulb each second? < 1260511202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I have seen it mentioned a lot recentlu < 1260511206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recently* < 1260511208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this channel < 1260511220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming "small black hole" = a few particles < 1260511224 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's because it's the name of a person that people have mentioned a lot recently. < 1260511236 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, the owner of yudkowsky.net, who writes at lesswrong.com. < 1260511248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, never heard of those web sites < 1260511287 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I first came across Yudkowsky, I found his stuff very interesting. < 1260511396 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I guess I recommend it. < 1260511498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, some Wikipedian made a list of all the things that are possible in Windows XP but not Windows Vista < 1260511503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_removed_from_Windows_Vista < 1260511572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'll be one long list of references after every statement is sourced. < 1260511591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* The Log Off confirmation on the classic Start menu has been removed. <--- this < 1260511607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it's that big a problem, just that the entry still says "Log off..." with three dots < 1260511615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets me every time as I wait several minutes for the dialog box to come up < 1260511622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no dots, and it wouldn't be a problem < 1260511634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, those dots. what happen instead? < 1260511642 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just logs off, without confirmation < 1260511643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just log out? < 1260511653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then why waiting several minutes? < 1260511655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ... at the end of a menu item implies "dialog box coming" pretty much everywhere < 1260511661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because that's how long it takes to log out < 1260511666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hah < 1260511674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why are you using vista? < 1260511678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I found something similar in Gnome network-manager today < 1260511684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, xp or 7 I can understand < 1260511687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: public terminals, I'm not always on my laptop < 1260511697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but vista is just incomprehensible < 1260511712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the network-manager problem is that if you try to make a global change, you get a ... at the end of whatever the OK button is called < 1260511724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need to enter an auth password to change settings globally < 1260511725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes sense < 1260511734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, all windows computers at the university I'm at seems to run English XP Pro < 1260511737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you already have a remembered password (i.e. on the sudo timeout), the dots are still there < 1260511740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it doesn't prompy < 1260511741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*prompt < 1260511746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's a mix of XP, Vista, and 7 here < 1260511749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but with classicl look < 1260511753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computer in my office runs 7 < 1260511754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic* < 1260511756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1260511761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like windows 2000 < 1260511885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Windows Vista restricts the amount of memory DPMI programs can have to 32 MB (33,554,432 bytes). The limitation applies to DPMI programs running inside NTVDM. [59] The same is not true for previous versions of Windows." < 1260511888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind-of strange < 1260511897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an issue for C-INTERCAL, I think < 1260511904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it uses NTVDM when running the DOS build under Windows < 1260511947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Gopher protocol is no longer supported." < 1260511948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH < 1260511955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except < 1260511959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't in XP either iirc < 1260511981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why can't you compile C-INTERCAL to use cygwin or something? < 1260511993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or just windows directly < 1260511997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need for dos at all < 1260511997 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260512000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin you can, just that's a different build < 1260512003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260512007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hours ago < 1260512010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me < 1260512011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and running the DOS build on Windows is useful, mostly because it's hard to test otherwise < 1260512018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i haven't read it yet < 1260512024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, HAHAHA < 1260512033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, fantasy theme < 1260512040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just brought up mezzacotta < 1260512047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, fantasy + death even < 1260512081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's with all the iwc reminders in here? < 1260512095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "who is first to mention IWC" game < 1260512102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, between me and oerjan < 1260512120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game < 1260512121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, didn't you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so? < 1260512131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah I mentioned it before you < 1260512144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by 1/3 of a second or so) < 1260512153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned it first at this end < 1260512157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's let clog settle < 1260512175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and please don't let this turn into a metawar of "who can mention 'who can mention first' first"... < 1260512177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1260512179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also how is it worse? < 1260512196 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:15:20 <ais523> oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game < 1260512197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:15:21 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so? < 1260512198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, good idea to do that! < 1260512200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clog says I win < 1260512223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I do not acknowledge clog as an authority in these matters < 1260512276 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say ais523 wins, too. Not that my authority is any more justified. < 1260512276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:10:45 < ais523> oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game < 1260512276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:10:45 < AnMaster> ais523, didn't you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so? < 1260512284 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot escape the win. < 1260512322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need exact sub-second timestamps from precisely aligned clocks or something < 1260512375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the records, my timestamps were 16:10:45 for both. < 1260512419 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 wins < 1260512427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> (and please don't let this turn into a metawar of "who can mention 'who can mention first' first"... < 1260512429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: A winner is him. < 1260512446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never metaw *hit by falling anvil* < 1260512455 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder when AnMaster'll realize he's always the one with the bigger lag < 1260512456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, :D < 1260512508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but I win due to using ipv6 to connect. Since the lag introduced by the tunnel is not counted due to it being so cool or something. Unless ais523 is also using ipv6? < 1260512522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also i saw ais523 first too < 1260512530 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260512543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's a bit hard to say who wins < 1260512575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i suppose you win if none of the lag is counted < 1260512597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh the ipv4 lag is counted < 1260512602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not the bit due to the tunnel < 1260512610 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right, yeah < 1260512611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is indeed hard to calculate < 1260512626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, really it should be based on locally hitting enter < 1260512631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very hard to calculate < 1260512693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you had the advantage based on the fact that you made the comment that triggered it < 1260512693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'll have seen the trigger first < 1260512717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, good point < 1260512728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however I wrote a much longer line < 1260512741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so I must have started writing that line way before you did < 1260512742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The comment with the smaller SHA1 hash wins. < 1260512749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260512759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: have you calculated them? < 1260512766 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hashing based on what content? < 1260512771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the bit after the nick? the whole message/ < 1260512776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the whole message, as seen from which server? < 1260512782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are we writing nicks as <ais523> < 1260512787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the final newline count? < 1260512801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the message parameter part. And without the final newline; that's a message separator anyway. < 1260512810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The bit after the nick", that is. < 1260512827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n "ais523, didn't you play \"who can say hi first\" with ehird about a year ago or so?" | sha1sum < 1260512827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0a09ff71a80478e5950fb22b21de5e26c80e14ef - < 1260512831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n "oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game" | sha1sum < 1260512831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e487aa9edb31f3169ce431aec818ea1339679c78 - < 1260512834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1260512837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *do* win < 1260512855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to that < 1260512887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the message parameter part, without the final newline, as that's the part that the user has the most control over. < 1260512892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with sha512sum you would win ais523 : 98e07e1aaff52703459c37d2c069dcf245e7a9dff8b217cc132fdbe52cd8a4399e7bd474ae5a34c3fed86aa8d6db7f2148ab8077dcdeb053acabede44ad8b435 vs 35fd098b72b5af8f3314c4d94df407c1bb0b06b86b4f04cd2b8a220a05600f292d5967f2bf9c8f55f979de6173d65ce5b70620bf8d296f018667b51afa8cb31f < 1260512903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n 'oh, it'"\'"'s worse than the ehird/me hi game' | sha1sum4bdbea4adce1244fc1992c25027dc83510382b72 - < 1260512905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n 'ais523, didn'"\'"'t you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?' | sha1sum < 1260512906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :870b779382fc1782cab65d33fe31b346ac9d6d6f - < 1260512916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I win with SHA1 too < 1260512921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see above < 1260512932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, strangely my client seems to have clipped a newline < 1260512935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a different result < 1260512942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: me = SHA1, you = SHA512 < 1260512946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why the results are different! < 1260512948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see above that < 1260512952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> $ echo -n "ais523, didn't you play \"who can say hi first\" with ehird about a year ago or so?" | sha1sum < 1260512952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> 0a09ff71a80478e5950fb22b21de5e26c80e14ef - < 1260512952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> $ echo -n "oh, it's worse than the ehird/me hi game" | sha1sum < 1260512952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> e487aa9edb31f3169ce431aec818ea1339679c78 - < 1260512955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bit < 1260512963 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Your way gives an extra \ in the hash input. < 1260512970 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Just remove the sha1sum part and you'll see. < 1260512970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fizzie said < 1260512977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260512981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes this metawar got far out of hand < 1260512987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "blah\"blah\"blah" < 1260512988 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah"blah"blah < 1260512991 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I never metawar that didn't. < 1260513003 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1260513009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n 'oh, it'"'"'s worse than the ehird/me hi game' | md5sum < 1260513011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e876a9a90f35c175d397018775def433 - < 1260513012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n 'ais523, didn'"'"'t you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?' | md5sum < 1260513014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94b963161db7696d693326c0748bd493 - < 1260513020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixing the backslash problem, looks like AnMaster wins on md5 too < 1260513026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1260513047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whirdpool? I don't seem to have any tool for calculating that around < 1260513053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whirlpool* < 1260513067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick, whip up a script that uses wordnet synonyms, punctuation randomization and some arbitrary whitespace manipulation to calculate a "hash-optimized" way of saying any given thing. < 1260513068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n 'oh, it'"'"'s worse than the ehird/me hi game' | crc32 /dev/stdin < 1260513069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2fa93fe5 < 1260513070 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo -n 'ais523, didn'"'"'t you play "who can say hi first" with ehird about a year ago or so?' | crc32 /dev/stdin < 1260513072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :39b3660a < 1260513074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, take that < 1260513080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260513090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, crc32c? < 1260513095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what crc32 < 1260513100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the Perl version < 1260513110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which comes with Archive::Zip < 1260513113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 ... < 1260513118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked about the algorithm < 1260513122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not where it came from < 1260513123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260513133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Now you have sufficient information to find out, duh. < 1260513145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, too much work duh? < 1260513146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, whatever algorithm zipfiles use < 1260513153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You're the one who cares, duh? < 1260513155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the source < 1260513163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, duh duh! < 1260513169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nuh-uh! < 1260513200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still, I think sha1sum is the one that should count < 1260513220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Quick, whip up a script that uses wordnet synonyms, punctuation randomization and some arbitrary whitespace manipulation to calculate a "hash-optimized" way of saying any given thing. <-- done it yet? < 1260513226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think timestamp is what should count < 1260513252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes and the local one when one hit enter. Do you use ntp? < 1260513256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I do < 1260513261 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A weighted sum of all SHA-3 second round competitors, weights from the number of published cryptanalysis papers about them. < 1260513263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is looking for how to enable subsecond timestamps < 1260513274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260513302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's nontrivial for me to enable sub/minute/ timestamps < 1260513302 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having the "competitors" themselves provide the timestamps introduces an obvious trust problem. < 1260513314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1260513326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds like a shitty irc client < 1260513340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just one optimised for different things than you want < 1260513344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes < 1260513346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260513347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only solution I can think of is to have a trusted third party (me) install surveillance devices to both of your apartments. Stop wriggling, this is for your own good. < 1260513348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes < 1260513349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1260513359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, irssi? < 1260513361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, you agree. < 1260513375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Konversation < 1260513376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I agreed to the former statement < 1260513379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the second < 1260513382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well *shrug* < 1260513393 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I disagree, on the basis that I'm not currently /in/ my apartment < 1260513397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it wouldn't have the desired effect < 1260513408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not at home either < 1260513411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't worry, I'll just have someone follow you around. < 1260513428 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's a bit too expensive for this purpose, though. < 1260513435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: as long as they're good at esoprogramming and fun to talk to, I don't mind < 1260513438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be useful < 1260513444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also I'm not in an apartement < 1260513447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when at home < 1260513450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free standing house < 1260513474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(again, same here, but I wasn't sure about definitions...) < 1260513494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1260513495 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube < 1260513497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1260513502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: give me some garbage < 1260513503 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you could, but it is very weird. why didn't they just call it ten? that chick? dude. i mean, honestly. what's the hole card. that means you like shit!!! < 1260513508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style europarl < 1260513509 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) < 1260513514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, hi there < 1260513515 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, if we continue to permit land to lie fallow or be set aside for them. < 1260513526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: heh, I like that style < 1260513527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, really? < 1260513529 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mr president, i would like to suggest that people can bring progress in the budgetary policy. it is disgraceful to change things, quite the reverse, it is not that but rather to the practice of executions in the usa because we have lost our bearings? this is a thinly veiled means of interfering in this process? the third point. the tragedy involving semira has shaken our society and, indeed, from country to country. whi < 1260513529 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: despite the massive investment of the european parliament is well aware of the need to safeguard economies most dependent on coastal fishing, which contribute not only to goods and services. < 1260513531 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A single room of a house; the original sense being expressed by the plur. apartments." As long as you're not in multiple rooms simultaneously, that works. < 1260513537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1260513546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fizzie not fungot for the last line < 1260513547 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, madam president-in-office of the council, which has done most to expose real and fundamental problems of work and to consider that although the reduction in actual transportation costs. at the same time the european parliament has not taken the crisis in kosovo to an end. < 1260513559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem confused about my kender < 1260513561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gender* < 1260513565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's the chance that that style will start "mr president,"? < 1260513584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> "A single room of a house; the original sense being expressed by the plur. apartments." As long as you're not in multiple rooms simultaneously, that works. <-- as a matter of fact I do < 1260513616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, separate bedroom (small) and office (also small) < 1260513618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "Very likely", but I don't have a tool for reverse-converting the language models to anything human-readable. < 1260513631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again bbiab really now < 1260513650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: again? < 1260513653 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mr president, on the basis of the charging system and also on how they should progress in future. the european refugee fund under category 3. in recent weeks and months to come. < 1260513653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I can do an empirical sampling of a thousand sentences or so if you like. < 1260513661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, no need < 1260513667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just wondering what causes it to do that < 1260513677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it take a random sentence and start with its first two words, for instance? < 1260513735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> ais523: "Very likely", but I don't have a tool for reverse-converting the language models to anything human-readable. <-- fungot not producing human readable output? XD < 1260513739 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, after a lively debate in stockholm, a special fund and that is the position in crafts and small and medium-sized cotton farms in greece, compared with fnord in it and that will not happen automatically, they are often housed in disgraceful conditions. this surely will be: ' very well, we need a uniform statute for asylum seekers and immigrants. the third aspect of this process, the middle east peace proc < 1260513758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's just that every sentence in the corpus has had the special token START added in the beginning, and then those are modeled by the n-grams just like any other token; and the text generation starts with an (invisible) context "START". < 1260513771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: please make a graph about precidency. < 1260513794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I think the correct reply may be "augh" < 1260513810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I saw a pun that wasn't there < 1260513814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab again < 1260513835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did, actually < 1260513845 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no pun intended" < 1260513874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes about a second or two of the Perl script to generate a sentence, so this sampling will take a moment. < 1260513875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of a really awful pun I heard a while back < 1260513892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the idea is that there was a pun competition < 1260513907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ten finalists submitted puns that they thought were really bad, and would beat the current record pun < 1260513910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no pun in ten did < 1260513949 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nng. < 1260513966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :told you it was bad < 1260514024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very intermediate results: http://pastebin.com/m39b468be < 1260514030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd was funny imo < 1260514038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hovertext < 1260514073 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notably, the Perl script might not perfectly correspond to what the bot itself does. (Especially if the bot has gone self-aware.) < 1260514082 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, i started reading those as a list of things you can address someone ass < 1260514084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as < 1260514087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260514101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: they mostly are, if you think about it < 1260514114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mr president and madam president work < 1260514116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ladies and", for instance < 1260514120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then "many major" < 1260514122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> told you it was bad < 1260514128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm unable to spot it < 1260514130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "ladies and gentlemen" almost certainly < 1260514131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the pun < 1260514152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: somehow, you being unable to spot the pun is funnier than the actual pun < 1260514161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, .... < 1260514170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you please point it out < 1260514177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pun in those then did < 1260514196 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That one instance actually goes: "ladies and gentlemen, mrs neyts-uyttebroeck, ladies and gentlemen, poverty in the european convention." < 1260514196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ten < 1260514209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1260514212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes? < 1260514217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's fungot output? or the original? < 1260514221 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: mr president, i have always welcomed his proposals in this house we would disagree, but on the form such compromises could take. i ask for your support and i thank the rapporteur mrs giannakou-koutsikou, but also the new media will completely replace the old regulation just in time, would be very similar. this will always be positive and i speak to you not as a member of the same group, included the republic of lithuani < 1260514230 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Fungot output, sorry. < 1260514246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: point is the last sentence doesn't really work except as a pun < 1260514260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well yes the grammar is wrong < 1260514263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I think AnMaster hasn't seen the pun at all yet < 1260514268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, correct < 1260514271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grammar isn't quite wrong, but it is rather tortured < 1260514276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what line it should be in < 1260514276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a clue that it's a punchline < 1260514277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just telling him where it is. < 1260514287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm unable to spot it. I even read it aloud < 1260514302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed the grammar isn't really wrong, it's just a really weird way to reference the puns < 1260514306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1260514310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I see it < 1260514313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT bad? < 1260514313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First 103 samples: http://pastebin.com/m34f18f81 < 1260514318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AUGH < 1260514323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intended right < 1260514341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260514344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addressing someone as "the problem" might not be very polite < 1260514351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "no pun intended" is a standard phrase < 1260514359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why is the perl script so slow? < 1260514366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, even fungot seems faster < 1260514369 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, we must emphasise civilian missions, in which respect for the state to protect citizens against serious crimes, including terrorism, if those conditions are met, production methods could be used to raise funds. i am opposed to short-term growth and in favour of the well-prepared report by my friend and fellow member, mr berenguer fuster is: should mobile telephone suppliers not be treated less favourably < 1260514379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, well, everyone who's serious about performance uses Funge-98 nowadays. < 1260514396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260514438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, timing please? < 1260514440 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, our rapporteurs have centred their considerations both on the part of my portfolio but more particularly because an accurate analysis of the many obstacles we have experienced many times in this house, not to be the only indicator used. we need to adopt them, because those of us who live in europe, despite the pledges of financial support for their survival. < 1260514441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1260514447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, you are usually faster IME < 1260514448 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we are unfortunately witnessing the phenomenon of the new powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction of coins and notes. it seems that it is only transitional, and this change has taken and which has undergone one civil war and human rights. < 1260514458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, 0.4 lag here < 1260514459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Perl script is more clever when it comes to punctuation (maintains a stack of things that need be closed), but I doubt that's a major contribution. < 1260514461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260514526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 the amsterdam < 1260514527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260514543 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260514558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, " 1 commission. (de)"? < 1260514572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a preprocessing problem somewhere. < 1260514575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, so how do you feel? < 1260514577 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, that the way forward in this matter is still being discussed. i doubt whether anyone here would support it. finally on foreign policy and in the green paper expressly states and that the establishment of a european tourist agency necessary from every point of view, i am extremely disappointed to see that there is no monitoring, or at first reading between what is state aid which is not fully functioning, < 1260514621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1260514622 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1260514624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ct < 1260514624 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) < 1260514634 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sword alone can't stop! < 1260514643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I was waiting for that comment < 1260514656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, however you need to highlight it < 1260514658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many for m < 1260514659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me* < 1260514679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Can the sword alone stop? < 1260514679 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. you may use that " rainbow shell? can eat much! < 1260514690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, really? < 1260514691 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... < 1260514705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shorter life span? < 1260514706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the second time fungot's done "we are looking to achieve a shorter life span" < 1260514707 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the masamune! < 1260514708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's unusual < 1260514721 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's what Gaspar says if you try to use the bucket in End of Time. < 1260514725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we flagged it as unusual the first time and discussed it for a while < 1260514730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1260514731 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1260514732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1260514741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: see if you can make the comments more intelligible than they were before, it shouldn't be hard < 1260514742 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then he said it looks absolutely nothing like this. jealousy? ( i can't wait for this plane 3 of the airfield, such as ' the tv is talking about. < 1260514748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Only go there if you're looking to achieve a shorter life span... Lavos will help you to leave this mortal coil." Or something like that, I don't have the text here. < 1260514763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260514790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: again again! again again! < 1260514790 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: since 1988, air france 296 < 1260514827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLD MAN: That Gate leads to 1999 A.D... It leads to the "Day of Lavos"... Go there only if you're looking to achieve a shorter life span... Lavos will help you leave this mortal coil. < 1260514855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't so far off. < 1260514987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot's so fun to talk to < 1260514988 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: please check your facts before spouting off their mouths. air france entry on wikipedia for all! < 1260514993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, apparently not < 1260514994 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, out of a sample of N=239, 64.0 % start with "mr president,", 12.1 % with "madam president," and the highest single other possibilities are around 1.3 %. < 1260515113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: calm down! < 1260515114 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: when they threw the guy who wrote the game, but it was < 1260515134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style discworld < 1260515134 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) < 1260515137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This style seems prone of stopping in the middle of something. < 1260515138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, ? < 1260515140 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lord mcsweeney nodded. ' take it, please.' < 1260515142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/This/That/ < 1260515155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that being discworld? < 1260515163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, take what? < 1260515164 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the sky was full of little fnord, forested country of lancre. < 1260515164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That being Youtube. < 1260515175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sky full of lancre < 1260515179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how fun < 1260515191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, I thought lancre was mainly mountainous? < 1260515192 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a wave submerged brutha. for a while. the audience watched in fascinated silence. quarney nodded mutely. < 1260515202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260515211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it has lots of forests too, presumably they're on the mountains < 1260515226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes < 1260515244 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And lots of little fnords. < 1260515247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION digs out that lancre map  < 1260515272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mountains, sky, close enough < 1260515330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnord < 1260515394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, "mr president-in-office" is also one way to start. < 1260515441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you should add hitchhikers guide to the galaxy in there < 1260515460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't I try? I thought I tried. Maybe I didn't. < 1260515467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, rare? < 1260515502 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I was a bit bored of books at that point. They all sound more or less the same, except of course not at all. < 1260515512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes it is rather unusual to hold two concurrent conversations with one person in real life. Yet it happens all the time on irc < 1260515529 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 instances in ~300 or so. < 1260515531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not all the time < 1260515542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, but often enough that I notice < 1260515571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is often enough? < 1260515581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, really < 1260515586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly I do it with ehird, or did < 1260515596 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260515598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1260515616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I wonder when he will tell what the issue is < 1260515617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unfortunately, this decision has to be developed without at the same time, so it will be hard to be sure of that, it will be difficult." The form of politics-speak, the bot does grok it. < 1260515649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, from europarl? < 1260515655 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260515671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it sounds incoherent certainly < 1260515702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"there is no shortage of those in many member states of the union to have a greater proportion of elderly people who are treated with suspicion. this must not be the reasons that i have worked a lot with this." < 1260515715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's good that we're not short of elderly people to treat with suspicion. < 1260515751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, especially since it results in lots of work for politicians it seems < 1260515831 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha. "i support a strong political message to european citizens, who are often harmed by them."' < 1260515848 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An honest politician, how refreshing. < 1260515865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1260516382 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@174-137-229-165.ip.tor.radiant.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260516722 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260517106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260517409 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260517429 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260518255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260518399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260518400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260520494 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m6f85b8d for the whole set of 1000. So around 60.7 % chance, according to this particular test. < 1260521625 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260521980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what percentage of the source data sentences start with "mr president"? < 1260522125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left work already, in a bus now. < 1260522150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *should* be a very similar percentage. < 1260522278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1260522292 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may not have used the full europarl corpus for the training, though. < 1260522309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from fizzie: 2.22 second(s) < 1260522311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice lag < 1260522326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are aware of that you are marked away? < 1260522425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess he went away < 1260522431 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260522431 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260522586 0 :ais523!n=ais523@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260522635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AirCastle < 1260522816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh, your tab-complete has got screwed up < 1260522826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes indeed < 1260522828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mistab < 1260522829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily that's unlikely to hurt me, as I rarely need to tab-complete my /own/ name... < 1260522841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it's weird to not be first in alphabetical order < 1260522848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in fact I highlight last spoken < 1260522854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not an issue once you spoke < 1260522865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming this AirCastle doesn't speak after you < 1260522875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CallForJudgement < 1260522880 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's simplify it for everyone else < 1260522883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, har har < 1260522895 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you laughing? < 1260522895 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this /is/ my nick... < 1260522896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, now my nick column is too wide < 1260522900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is worse < 1260522904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, it is? < 1260522908 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fits just fine in mine < 1260522911 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, ask NickServ < 1260522921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, seems so completely not you < 1260522923 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:10] [Notice] -NickServ- Information on callforjudgement (account ais523): < 1260522924 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:10] [Notice] -NickServ- Registered : Aug 26 13:16:53 2009 (15 weeks, 2 days, 03:53:37 ago) < 1260522930 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a nomic term < 1260522933 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it seem more me now? < 1260522939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1260522962 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, with this nick I can sit here sorting out arguments via deus ex machina < 1260522964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are ais[0-9]+[_`]? < 1260522975 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never suffixed ` to my nick < 1260522981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, sure? < 1260522985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1260522992 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm usually ais523, ais523_+ when necessary to avoid clashes < 1260522992 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais532 when I typo < 1260522999 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 524 occasionally, for nick puns < 1260523026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, I think 1064 happened once < 1260523031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a 534 pun < 1260523036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, someone did *= 2 < 1260523049 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been 1046, surely? < 1260523060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yeah < 1260523066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typoed when I calculated it < 1260523070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I entered 532 < 1260523073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 523 < 1260523109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement = sqrt(-ais523) < 1260523116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what will happen < 1260523119 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1260523124 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, that was easy < 1260523126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1260523847 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost tab-AirCastled earlier today. < 1260524156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of 63045 comments of the Europarl data, 28954 match "grep -i '^mr president'". < 1260524182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's significantly less than 60 %, but on the other hand I don't really remember at this point what my training set was. < 1260524562 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's quite a pile of whitespace, too. The bit more robust '^[^a-z]*mr president' is matched by 34372 lines. < 1260525322 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260526147 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, on my way to making my IRC bot in an esoteric language! < 1260526247 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which? < 1260526531 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zetaplex < 1260527728 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260530132 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260530349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny opposite of typo: I read "google fu trends" < 1260530355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(instead of flu) < 1260531498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement, nice order url: https://www.bokus.com/cgi-bin/labyrinth.cgi < 1260531509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a web shop < 1260531511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(books) < 1260531546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :labyrinth.cgi well yeah, their order system is in fact unusually easy to navigate < 1260532178 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260532282 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532287 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532376 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532376 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532376 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532376 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532612 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532612 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532612 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532612 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532612 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-178-159.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532617 0 :`Fuco``!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532671 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532671 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532671 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532768 0 :_MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532842 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260532909 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532909 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532917 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260532917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260533289 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260533324 0 :_MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260533392 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260533441 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260533467 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260534399 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first part of a Haskell expression: ["ais523","ais569","ais661","ais707","ais753","ais799","ais891","ais937","ais983","ais29","ais121","ais167","ais213","ais259","ais351","ais397","ais443","ais489","ais581","ais627","ais673","ais719" < 1260534407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continue the sequence. < 1260534434 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that there is indisputably only one way to continue that sequence that makes sense. < 1260534485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No there isn't. < 1260534499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding an infinite number of []s to the list also makes sense. < 1260534529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it doesn't make nearly as much sense. < 1260534536 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260534536 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260534536 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260534737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"checking whether to build shared libraries... no\nchecking whether to build shared libraries... yes" < 1260534741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF, autoconf? < 1260534838 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!swedish test < 1260534846 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No more sweedbot? < 1260534850 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^swedish test < 1260534859 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will end up with some sort of schroedi-libs that are and are not built at the same time. < 1260534906 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260534941 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1260535586 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260535747 0 :Wh1teWolf!n=Wh1teWol@77.18.68.250.tmi.telenormobil.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536327 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536327 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536327 0 :AirCastle!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536327 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536327 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536329 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536330 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536331 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536331 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536331 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536331 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260536415 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437611.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :AirCastle!i=inhahe@adsl-074-186-083-219.sip.mia.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260536559 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260537778 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-99.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260537814 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260537826 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1260538449 0 :`Fuco``!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538449 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538449 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538603 0 :mu!n=mu@adsl-155-100-7.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538609 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260538637 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.73.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538642 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One thing's for sure: until you have a backup strategy of some kind, you're screwed, you just don't know it yet. If backing up your data sounds like a hassle, that's because it is. Shut up. I know things. You will listen to me. Do it anyway." —Coding Horror < 1260538645 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260538664 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, did ehird come in here just to give us a Coding Horror quote? < 1260538675 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538675 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538675 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538676 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538676 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260538687 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.73.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538689 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Coding Horror experienced 100% data loss at our hosting provider, CrystalTech." < 1260538696 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I did a complete (full for some things, incremental for others, but complete combined with previous backups) backup yesterday < 1260538702 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehirdiphone < 1260538704 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wow < 1260538709 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only "backups"? On the same VPS. < 1260538713 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1260538725 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nothing of value was lost. < 1260538745 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have (very recent) backups on a USB stick, (also very recent) backups on the same drive that they're backing up (insurance against accidental rms) < 1260538750 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, less recent ones on other computers < 1260538755 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260538772 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rms, famous data bandit < 1260538804 0 :`Fuco``!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538804 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538804 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-178-159.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538807 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't backup at all. < 1260538811 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538821 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ugh, not even incidentally? < 1260538834 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. when you copy data from one computer to another, do you always delete the original? < 1260538856 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never lost anything apart from some ripped music. Easy to rip again. < 1260538863 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement: lol < 1260538900 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CallForJudgement: Eso os idea; that < 1260538915 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what computational class brainfuck with only >, but with bounded memory and an extra instruction to add one memory slot to the memory would have < 1260538916 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better if you can make it perfectly atomic < 1260538921 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its replaced by a symlink to the location < 1260538922 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538927 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a power cut will cause the entire file to always be on either one computer, or the other < 1260538928 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the memory would wrap when it reaches the end < 1260538931 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when copying over a network < 1260538945 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably /some/ way to do that, although I'm not sure < 1260538954 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: Minimax did that iirc ask CallForJudgement < 1260538967 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538969 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260538969 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MiniMAX isn't quite the same < 1260538977 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bf thing < 1260538977 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it supports arbitrary-sized > and < < 1260538977 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1260538985 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the BF thing isn't what FireFly describes either < 1260538985 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was translated into it < 1260538994 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's still interesting < 1260539001 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539001 0 :`Fuco``!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539001 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539010 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, clearly what FireFly says is TC, because you can compile arbitrary coprime DownRight programs into it < 1260539024 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, DownRight is an esolang that is not vaporware, just I haven't put it on the wiki yet < 1260539050 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539050 0 :`Fuco``!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539050 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539050 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-178-159.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539052 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor told anyone < 1260539070 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the name was obsolete really quickly because it really doesn't matter if you can move up and left too < 1260539075 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you plan writing something on the wiki about it? < 1260539088 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point < 1260539090 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye for now < 1260539093 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1260539093 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1260539105 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds similar to what I described, but 2D-ish < 1260539107 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of the issue is that it's rather close to Bitwise Cyclic Tag, in that it trivially round-trips < 1260539244 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a couple of hypotheses I have to do with it, though < 1260539269 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can come up with a few variants of it, one of which I think but don't know is sub-TC < 1260539273 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then one is clearly TC < 1260539304 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sub-TC"? < 1260539307 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another one is clearly also TC, but feels sort-of super-TC in that I can't figure out any way to compile existing programs into it while using all the features < 1260539314 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, <TC? < 1260539316 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except by arbitrarily throwing in uses to them < 1260539321 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub-TC means <TC, yes < 1260539328 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you can't compile BF to it < 1260539331 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1260539360 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First I thought you referred to a certain computational class < 1260539549 0 :Wh1teWolf!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260539553 0 :`Fuco``!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260539702 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260539747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539747 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539747 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539747 0 :AirCastle!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539747 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539748 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539750 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539750 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539750 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539751 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539752 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539752 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260539803 0 :CallForJudgement!n=ais523@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :AirCastle!i=inhahe@adsl-074-186-083-219.sip.mia.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539803 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539880 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539959 0 :ais523!n=ais523@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260539959 0 :CallForJudgement!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260540881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260542550 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260542784 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :`Fuco` < 1260542793 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Fuco < 1260543047 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.73.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260543059 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entertain me! < 1260543116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I've been working entirely mentally on a new esolang < 1260543119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its name is DownRight < 1260543128 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've said. < 1260543143 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I didn't realise you were here for that < 1260543154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, its source is a 2d matrix of string fragments < 1260543165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each of which is a possibly empty list made out of "down" and "right" < 1260543183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the matrix is effectively toroidal (bottom goes to top, right, goes to left) < 1260543191 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and to answer a question penned by AnMaster yesterday: Yudkowsky is one of the forefront singularitarians and rationalists. < 1260543200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, there's a queue, and the contents of the current square get added to the end of the queue < 1260543203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's it < 1260543223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can add I/O in a pretty simple way, but it's nice and pure without it < 1260543248 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already mentally proved it TC, in three different ways < 1260543256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(simulating tag, simulating cyclic tag, simulating a Minsky machine) < 1260543314 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No loops? < 1260543315 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1260543318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: no need < 1260543334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the matrix itself loops round from bottom to top, and from right to left < 1260543342 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1260543349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, what interests me is that all the ways I can thing of to program in involve using one dimension as data, and another as code < 1260543363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't have to be top-to-bottom and left-to-right, you could use, say, diagonals < 1260543391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the basic distinguishing feature is, that if you allowed up and left movement too < 1260543395 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260543404 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could design it so that the code never needed to wrap < 1260543407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the data would still need to wrap < 1260543427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I haven't managed to prove, but strongly suspect, that non-wrapping UpLeftDownRight is sub-TC) < 1260543486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, take that Qdecl < 1260543511 0 :fizzien900!n=user@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260543524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, Qdeql < 1260543542 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry, just had to because of the ehirdiphone name.) < 1260543578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if Qdeql is in fact TC despite the non-TCness argument on the wiki? < 1260543611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably, the same argument proves DownRight sub-TC, except I know it's TC < 1260543624 0 :ehirdiphone_!n=ehirdiph@82.132.139.207 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260543675 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue, except you seem to be one of the more knowledgeable people on this planet when it comes to TCness < 1260543685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I have to try to compile coprime DownRight into Qdeql here and see where it stops < 1260543696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'm not sure if the argument there's right or not < 1260543704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't obviously wrong, but it isn't obviously right either < 1260543738 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone_: Look, I have a phone-designator too. < 1260543865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue, mostly, is that Qdeql's flow control is really really nasty < 1260543957 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260543976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, also that there's no way to delete anything from the queue < 1260543989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except writing it to stdout < 1260544003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... assuming that we can get rid of useless data by throwing it to stdout, what happens? < 1260544060 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260544136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, next issue is getting the data we need /in/ from stdin... < 1260544146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not necessarily stdin < 1260544153 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260544189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write data to stdin < 1260544232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, even if we had a definite 10101010101010101010 in stdin, it would be hard to determine which to put there, as you can't skip stdin elements < 1260544236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they all have to be enqueued somewhere < 1260544241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't dequeue them immediately < 1260544256 0 :immibis!n=immibis@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260544497 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437611.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260544645 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260544763 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260545146 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A conversation: http://pastebin.com/m1c481645 < 1260545678 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260545790 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260546522 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260546995 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260547241 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260547844 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260549681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260549946 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-156-99-182.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260550087 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260550388 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260550855 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260550860 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260552885 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260553415 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260553435 0 :mu!n=mu@adsl-155-100-7.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260553441 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260555641 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260555642 0 :mu!n=mu@adsl-155-89-16.btr.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260555648 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260556333 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260557589 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1260557719 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260557723 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260557959 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260558037 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260558061 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260559187 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260559356 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260561719 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260561728 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260563453 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260565889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260569742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Oh, and to answer a question penned by AnMaster yesterday: Yudkowsky is one of the forefront singularitarians and rationalists. <-- well yes I know. Still doesn't explain why he has been mentioned a lot recently. For example: Why then has not Knuth been mentioned as much? < 1260569810 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260569885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzien900 <-- I read that as fizzien 900 rather than fizzie n900 first. I quite like the sound of "fizzien" < 1260570283 0 :immibis!n=immibis@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260573377 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260574209 0 :immibis!n=immibis@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260574627 0 :AirCastle!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260575003 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260575364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think I mentioned his name because I vaguely remembered ehird saying something offensive about him. < 1260577305 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 ISIHAC < 1260577378 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: still here? < 1260577684 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260577852 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260578724 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-88-95.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260579150 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1260579429 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260580372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, now I am < 1260580383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Partway throu < 1260580389 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*through Unseen Academicals now < 1260580390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, when you said that however I was away getting a haircut < 1260580396 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1260580424 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :book is thoroughly awesome < 1260580425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ISIHAC? < 1260580435 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm Sorry I Haven't A CLue < 1260580449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to locate context of that < 1260580458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails to do so < 1260580479 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Sorry_I_Haven%27t_a_Clue < 1260580490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, as in "why did you mentioned it" < 1260580500 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, because I was listening to it < 1260580503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260580523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was right around when "Milk, milk, lemonade" was concluded with "Triple vodka, you get laid." < 1260580525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, conclusion: you live in UK? < 1260580530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: negatory < 1260580538 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this neat thing called the Internet < 1260580540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, web radio? < 1260580547 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeap < 1260580557 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... was I going for 'yep' or 'yeah' there? < 1260580638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think I have an answer to that? < 1260580654 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, I'm not 100% on what the big change in UA to which you were referring is < 1260580665 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I have a guess, and it involves a capitalized pronoun < 1260580682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my runner-up involves an empty chair < 1260580683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, huh? It should be clear really early on < 1260580689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes empty chairs < 1260580690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1260580704 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... it's a change, but it didn't seem earth-shattering to me < 1260580715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260580718 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, we got Doctor Hix. < 1260580726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, he showed up in an earlier book < 1260580729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making Money iirc? < 1260580740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but he wasn't nearly as important < 1260580750 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your unappreciated comments are appreciated." < 1260580759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1260580810 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not like the DoPMC is new... I think it was referenced at least as far back as... uh... whichever one they had to talk to the dead guy in < 1260580826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember what book that was < 1260580911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guards! Guards!, maybe? < 1260580939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, huh? Which dead guy? < 1260580948 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an old wizard < 1260580953 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's kept in a bottle, IIRC < 1260580958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wasn't that making money? < 1260580959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again < 1260580977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about golems < 1260580982 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, possibly < 1260580993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so though, because I'd probably remember it better if it was a recent one < 1260581024 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... according to the wiki, it was only Making Money. Huh. < 1260581745 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260581907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260582190 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260583682 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260588449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "fizzien" would be the Finnish genetive case; the same as English "fizzie's" would be. < 1260588488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260588518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzien toisiaan villisti < 1260588560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what does that mean? < 1260588566 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260588574 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260588576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzing each other like crazy < 1260588594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1260589390 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so it could also be some other cases; like the active instructive second infinitive of a verb ("by means of" / "while in the act of" -- like fi:juosta = to run, fi:liikkua = to move, fi:"liikkua juosten" => "to move by running"), instead of the genetive case of a noun. That was just what I judged most likely. < 1260589522 0 :rodgort`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260589532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just the accusative of the noun "fizzie"; "I bought a fizzie" => "ostin fizzien". < 1260589532 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260589701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably should disconnect that thing, it'll drop when I get off the wlan soon anyway. < 1260589851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260589920 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-252.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260589925 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I doubt it would seamlessly transition from my private wlan to 3G, given that the IP changes and all. < 1260590074 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"off you go" < 1260592693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the guy next to me in the train has a N900 too. :p < 1260592710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/next/opposite/ < 1260592832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, should get off the train too and not just play with the toy. -> < 1260593371 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260594757 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260597678 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260598017 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260599439 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260599636 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260600205 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260600246 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260600619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc < 1260600946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi there. I was away. Thus I didn't notice you join < 1260600967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me which theme it was? < 1260600974 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :espionage < 1260600977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1260601808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm this issue makes no sense < 1260601827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sense makes no issue < 1260601830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either gcc is mishanding volatile or I'm doing something incorrect. < 1260601835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspects the latter < 1260604286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260604799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260604800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260605879 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260605879 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260606104 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260606104 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260606105 0 :`Fuco``!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260606145 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :SendQ exceeded < 1260606200 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260606561 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260606614 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260606614 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260606614 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260606614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260606614 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260606676 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1260606790 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260606836 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260606976 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260606985 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260607531 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260607531 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260607531 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260608170 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260609091 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-11-251.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260609132 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260609149 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1260609417 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-99-182.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260609774 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260609775 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260610285 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not that this is so interesting, but I put some pictures taken with the new phone into http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/ -- it's not too shabby, but the full-size images show pretty clearly that it is definitely not a real camera. < 1260610373 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The automatic image-sharing/upload tools are nice, though. Except that I forgot to change the default, and therefore it ripped out the GPS location exif tags from those images. Oh well.) < 1260610391 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads about Finnish. < 1260610408 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good ol' suomi. < 1260610444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's a Uralic language. < 1260610671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads about Dutch instead. < 1260610731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this what they call a diss? < 1260610781 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't tell you. < 1260610818 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260610823 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So long as you're reading about germanic languages, just read about English. < 1260610942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that gallery is quite broken < 1260610953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the images on the main page are stretched < 1260610967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it seems so < 1260610990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it looks like they are slightly stretched and somewhat cropped < 1260611318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Try reloading. < 1260611333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It seems to get confused generating the rescaled images sometimes. They looked just fine when I browsed through it. < 1260611517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, definitely cropped now < 1260611524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to fit in a square < 1260611528 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Show a screenshot? < 1260611532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, that they are. < 1260611541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it's supposed to do. < 1260611553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for the thumbnails, that is. < 1260611640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :batch command experienced an execution error < 1260611646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very helpful of gimp < 1260612064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, we visited the cafe on that there island, and it was about closing time, and there was beginning some sort of private event; when going out, I sneaked a peek through the door, and someone had set up a projector, and on the first slide of the PowerPoint (or some-such) presentation the title was "42" and the subtitle was "The Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything". < 1260612077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Made me very curious as to what sort of an event it was. < 1260612101 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1260612104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was also present a Finnish sort-of celebrity you probably don't know. < 1260612134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uunisaari, the place those photos I linked to (about 20 comments ago) were taken. < 1260612764 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260613352 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260613369 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: but I already know a lot about English. < 1260613458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260613502 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Declension: -s. Conjugation: -s -ing -ed. < 1260613556 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260613672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, learn Swedish maybe? < 1260613714 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How 'bout Yola. < 1260613735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I considered Swedish once. < 1260613740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and? < 1260613763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then he concluded that he's not a pirate yargh. < 1260613764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260613816 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I haven't attempted to learn it. < 1260613830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I don't get the joek < 1260613832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke* < 1260613839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe that is because I'm Swedish. < 1260613843 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a lot of y-like vowels. < 1260613857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is that y like in English y? < 1260613865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so: "huh?" < 1260613891 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by y, I mean [y], like in the Swedish word "syl". < 1260613914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, What other vowels would be similar in your opinion? < 1260613978 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ø], like "nöt", and [ĘŹ], like "syll". < 1260613987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err ö and y are very different < 1260613995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syll and syl yes < 1260613998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are similar < 1260614003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ö is very very very different < 1260614031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, completely different sound for ö and y < 1260614074 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How different would you say the sounds in the English words "dress" and "lot" are? < 1260614082 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely different? < 1260614107 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hmm, I wonder if I'm just asking this as an excuse to feel elite. < 1260614121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, very different at least. They are certainly closer than the vowels in "dress" and "say" though < 1260614143 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260614155 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would help, of course, if I actually heard Swedish spoken. < 1260614163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, don't have a microphone < 1260614172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I have one, but it isn't working < 1260614186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I shouldn't worry about the pronunciation for now, since I don't plan on actually speaking it any time soon. < 1260614188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, there are Swedish news broadcasts from the public service radio on their website < 1260614189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sr.se < 1260614224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, the difference between "anden" and "anden" is much funnier though < 1260614225 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wtfbbq < 1260614246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#Stress_and_pitch < 1260614253 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Say' shares a vowel with 'dress', although it is then proceeded by a different one. < 1260614264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what? < 1260614282 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: not in broad transcriptions. < 1260614291 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The long 'a' sound is a short 'e' (eh) followed by a long 'e' (ee) < 1260614292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that's one STRANGE dialect < 1260614305 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/eÉŞ/ versus /É›/. < 1260614306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I'm assuming RP here < 1260614319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm assuming Gerneal American :P < 1260614324 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the reason that I speak it :P < 1260614329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, which I have no clue how to speak < 1260614329 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, I'd say that /dɹɛs/ and /lÉ’t/ are about as different as one-syllable words can be :-P < 1260614366 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say "dress" and "boot" are more different < 1260614372 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: are you sure it's not /lat/? < 1260614375 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't really tell. < 1260614389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how are you measuring the difference < 1260614397 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrarily < 1260614399 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the vowels that are farthest apart on the vowel chart are /i/ and /É’/ < 1260614404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phonetic hamming distance < 1260614405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun < 1260614425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, I'd say /lat/ is very different. < 1260614428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roughly the vowels in "Eeyore". < 1260614449 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm... EEOR < 1260614450 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Hell, "hot" is even an example on Wikipedia's É’ page ;-) < 1260614451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what the hell does "Eeyore" mean? And how is it pronounced? < 1260614457 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, my accent doesn't distinguish between /a/ and /É’/. < 1260614469 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe you know of I-or < 1260614471 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eeyore is the name of a character in the Winnie the Pooh franchise. < 1260614481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah right < 1260614490 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and EEOR is a mountain < 1260614491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is that the English spelling? < 1260614495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. < 1260614498 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or part of one, to be exact < 1260614502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually it is "Ior" in Swedish iirc < 1260614504 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah. < 1260614505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "I-or" < 1260614522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pronounced /iËÉ”r/ or something. < 1260614526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Wikipedia sez I-or < 1260614533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's where I got it from) < 1260614543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, strange < 1260614565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to locate the book and gives up < 1260614571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy < 1260614703 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plays measures 26 through 29 of Opus 11. < 1260614733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, opus 11 by Gregor? < 1260614750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, didn't you make extra-www? < 1260614751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, is uorygl actually Warrigal? < 1260614754 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah < 1260614765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, why is codu not redirecting to www.www.codu.org? < 1260614776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* [uorygl] (n=warrie@lunch.normish.org): Tanner Swett < 1260614781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems not unlikely? < 1260614787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would explain some stuff < 1260614793 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because I made www.www.extra-www.org doesn't mean I think it's a good idea :P < 1260614825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, most things gets funnier by taking it seriously < 1260614828 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260614831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is definitely such a case < 1260614853 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Gregor's. < 1260614869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking www.www.codu.org ... does not redirect < 1260614869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Warning: socket_read() [function.socket-read]: unable to read from socket [104]: Connection reset by peer in /var/www/extra-www/validator.php on line 83 < 1260614869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Checking www.codu.org ... redirects to /WfXZN/ < 1260614878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I think it is broken < 1260614879 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what stuff would it explain? < 1260614891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you? < 1260614899 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops ... < 1260614903 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll have to check that some time. < 1260614923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, to vague. Try again for the time spec < 1260614924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1260614985 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, no-www.org mentions extra-www.org. < 1260615004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, old < 1260615064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just love that yes-www.org is gone but extra-www.org is still alive :P < 1260615214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, indeed < 1260615217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also old < 1260615252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wrote a simple two ball pong < 1260615286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260615288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? becuase why not overdo any assignment you get at university (this was supposed to be introduction to graphical programming) < 1260615314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and they are antialiased, use double buffering, and alpha channel to make the balls show up easily even when on top of each other < 1260615364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, I couldn't get page flipping to work :/ < 1260615675 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260615885 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to overdo my university assignments, but I ended up not doing them at all. < 1260615910 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, quoth my professor: "You could be getting an A in this class, and I don't know whether you're getting a C or a D." < 1260615948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ouch < 1260615954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how stupid < 1260615989 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's stupid--me, my behavior, the professor, what the professor said, the professor's not knowing, or the system? < 1260616012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, your behaviour if you were capable of better < 1260616080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches the nice effects of drawing something very fast moving (balls speeding up too much between static paddles) < 1260616119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should add a cap < 1260616328 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should produce motion blur using a low-pass filter. < 1260616365 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make sure it's a theoretically perfect one. < 1260616452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well the speeds I was hitting was making the LCD show several balls at once < 1260616465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also just get a crappy enough lcd and you will get something similar < 1260616481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my laptop certainly shows something similar < 1260616483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's why you use motion blur instead. < 1260616498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and I'm using allegro. That is what the assignment was about < 1260616508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it will be highly non-trivial in that < 1260616529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. You'll need to extend Allegro to support motion blur. :-P < 1260616538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very funny < 1260616551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ever coded with allegro? It is so portable it still supports DOS. < 1260616565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and various weird colour formats < 1260616592 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1260616608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, in fact it's docs suggests "truecolor pixel formats" is something non-standard < 1260616613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and yes it is actively developed < 1260616628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me why < 1260616633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still it is rather easy to use < 1260616647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comparing with, say, opengl < 1260616650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a pain < 1260616656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for 2D drawing < 1260616697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, in fact allegro doesn't even support antialias in the current stable version. The development version which uses opengl as a backend does however. < 1260616735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, So for antialiased balls in pong, I'm using a sprite created in gimp and saved as tga < 1260616741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with alpha channel < 1260616746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't support loading png < 1260616908 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437611.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260617449 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260617540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know a service that will run authoritative nameservers for a domain for cheap/free? < 1260617662 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Google has one. < 1260617677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do? < 1260617684 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1260617702 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not the authoritative part... I dunno.. hang on, like to come! < 1260617707 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260617721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a service that will run authoritative servers < 1260617729 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just random dns < 1260617735 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/ < 1260617752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/intl/sv-SE/speed/public-dns/faq.html#hosting < 1260617776 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Sorry. < 1260618248 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260618348 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use editdns.net < 1260618622 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's freedns.afraid.org < 1260618715 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260619064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, run bind on your own server < 1260619076 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I need a server with 100% uptime < 1260619078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also many places you buy domains from provide dns server for you < 1260619084 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as close to it as possible < 1260619086 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not this domain < 1260619090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, forget freedns.afraid.org then < 1260619096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had uptime issues with them before < 1260619125 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the requirements for registering the domain; you have to make sure that there are two nameservers that remain up < 1260619160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try another registrar that provides dns servers < 1260619177 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ro only has one registrar < 1260619189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, why on earth .ro? < 1260619192 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copp.ro < 1260619201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260619210 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the registration policy is wonderful. One-time fee. < 1260619216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, whoa < 1260619227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now known as AnMastor < 1260619234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260619236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now known as AnMastro < 1260619237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMastro? < 1260619242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260619247 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaestro < 1260619258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the thought *did* cross my mind < 1260619264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wasn't sure what language that was < 1260619283 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.al only allows registering .com.al, etc. :( < 1260619298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what country (if any) .er is < 1260619311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, you could change your nick to Aszcomal? < 1260619316 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eritrea < 1260619326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, I won't go for that < 1260619342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and .nt? < 1260619347 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't exist < 1260619350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1260619360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do reserve the right to start charging an annual fee though < 1260619364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ro is romania or something? < 1260619370 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1260619370 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260619468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, once the assignment is sent in and such I will probably put that pong game up somewhere. I guess I could offer a binary for 64-bit linux now if anyone is interested. < 1260619561 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| . < 1260619593 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260619612 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260619640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260619717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly. < 1260619795 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think everydns.net does free primary too. < 1260619812 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260619838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, fizzie had the solution to your DNS issue above < 1260619849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> This is the late, but there are at least several that can do the hidden-primary-DNS setup: their servers work technically as secondaries, with zone transfers from your primary, but you only put the secondaries into the TLD registry, so that it doesn't matter if your primary server is up only randomly. < 1260619849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> I think everydns.net does free primary too. < 1260619850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<coppro> | . <-- what was that about < 1260619871 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1260619873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://omploader.org/vMno3Zg/pong.tar.gz if anyone cares. Needs liballegro.so.4.2 < 1260619880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiled on ubuntu jaunty < 1260619882 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is confused by what fizzie said < 1260619919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it seems I included the xcf for those tga. Not that that matters. < 1260619956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just 16 K instead of uh .... 16 K ‽‽‽ < 1260620003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what it boils down to, assuming you don't want to run a DNS server at all, is that everydns.net is one provider that does completely free "full" DNS. (I have no idea how freely their DNS zone editor allows you to do things, though.) < 1260620006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh forgot -b to du < 1260620074 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1260620186 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260620211 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at least based on the nic.ro site, it looks as if one can only register .ro domains in the .co.ro, .ne.ro and .or.ro "top-level" subdomains, but what-the-ever. < 1260620253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they're just confusing, given how many plain .ro domains there seem to be. < 1260620256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if anyone tries that pong, please do mention it) < 1260620356 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess rotld.ro is the new page and that's just some old relic. Funny, usually "nic.tld" tends to give at least something sensible. < 1260620383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though now that I look, seems that a completely arbitrary Finnish ISP has gone and registered nic.fi, so...) < 1260620475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.fi has a similar "you must have at least two nameservers online or you might lose the domain" condition, with automatical sanity checks, but they do give you lots of time to correct any problems. (And you have to live in Finland too, unlike .ro.) < 1260621157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it seems like ompload urls are hashes, I uploaded the same file twice by mistake and got the same url back < 1260621389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay new url. And I would actually be interested in what people think about playability of http://omploader.org/vMno3cg/pong.tar.gz since it has two balls in play < 1260621398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meant for two physical players at the computer btw < 1260621483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it is quite fun for a single player too, trying to keep both balls in the air at once < 1260621500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at Deewiant < 1260621504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use 64-bit linux iirc < 1260621508 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hit me with a Windows binary. < 1260621521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, give me a C99 compiler for windows that works < 1260621526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1260621537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I thought you were on linux < 1260621540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems I misremembered < 1260621563 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your memory can't tell you what OS I'm in on a certain date at a certain time < 1260621565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about you? 64-bit linux or not? < 1260621581 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64-bit linux, but I don't run untrusted binaries. :p < 1260621582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah that is what you think. hehehe < 1260621596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't feel like rebooting into Linux now so you'd need to hand me a Windows binary. < 1260621602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260621612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't have any windows compiling environment set up < 1260621624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your problem, not mine. :-P < 1260621627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so by the time I had that in vitualbox you would already be on linux < 1260621630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also there is only one of me, and I can't play pong against myself. < 1260621642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh I found it fun to try to keep both balls in air at once < 1260621642 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have two hands don't you? < 1260621651 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but I'd lose! < 1260621664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the keys are up/down and w/s < 1260621672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esc to exit < 1260621683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it says in the readme in the updated version < 1260621684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Only if you can defeat yourself < 1260621704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, single player variant: try to keep both scores as low as possible < 1260621705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Inconvenient on non-qwerty. < 1260621729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay I guess I could do up/down and left/right < 1260621750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or I could make it configurable by command line parameter < 1260621752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I guess you could do is make it configurable < 1260621780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, need to convert it to scan code for allegro however < 1260621854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as for untrusted binary. hm. you could disassemble it and check that it doesn't call syscall directly and then see with nm -D what library functions it calls < 1260621863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it doesn't self modify that is < 1260621870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can see by it not calling mprotect < 1260621876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mmap < 1260621879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anything like that < 1260621885 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have liballeg.so.4.2 anyway. < 1260621886 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dobelx64 doesn't call mprotect, but self-modifies :-P < 1260621892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I could upload that < 1260621910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but you could look with readelf to see what it requests initially < 1260621920 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, still not interested. And I'm sure the liballeg.so.4.2 disassembly would be too long to read. < 1260621927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260621936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway you install allegro < 1260621940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should include it < 1260621950 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I no install allegro. < 1260621955 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Kunde inte byta till graifkäget"; at least I ran it through strings. < 1260621961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ä/lä/ < 1260621966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/if/fi/ < 1260621986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie oops forgot to translate that. it is error message from failing to set up window < 1260621990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 800x600 < 1260621996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes windowed mode < 1260622000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION corrects that message < 1260622010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I'm the useful. < 1260622016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1260622069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway you could just check my allegro library had same checksum as the ubuntu jaunty package one < 1260622090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you just audited every line of disassembly ;P < 1260622096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on your whole linux system < 1260622105 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But does fizzie trust the Ubuntu packages? :-P < 1260622121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only trust Deewiant. (You have to trust *someone*.) < 1260622124 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know a good Marble Drop-like game that I can play on Linux (e.g. Flash or native or something) < 1260622135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Last I checked you didn't trust me enough to run CCBI < 1260622149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then fizzie *is* paranoid < 1260622168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also there is throwaway account and chroot < 1260622170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful things < 1260622178 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't trust chroot. :p < 1260622191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about virtualbox then < 1260622191 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How do you use IRC? Browse the web? < 1260622214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I trust my browser but I don't trust my kernel. That is a bit silly. < 1260622225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw. how long do you think downloading visual studio from msdnaa would take. Give or take a few years? < 1260622236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yep. < 1260622238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what browser? < 1260622245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Can't wine cross-compile using mingw? < 1260622264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have no idea. And I never got mingw working even under windows so... < 1260622274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not for more than basic hello world < 1260622296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mingw is just fine for Windows binary-making; I used it to build Windows binaries of our group project-work for the OpenGL course. < 1260622314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang should also be able to cross-compile with Winelib < 1260622314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "3d graphics programming course with a OpenGL focus", to be more exact. < 1260622316 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently you don't even need wine < 1260622320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260622325 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust pola-run. < 1260622327 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's awesomesauce. < 1260622337 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably need Wine for any windows lib stuff < 1260622348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a ready-made package for ubuntu for this? < 1260622352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you need to run it < 1260622354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has gotten lazy < 1260622357 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian has it under the name "mingw32". < 1260622361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Some link suggests that there is so for debian, at least < 1260622363 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know about Ubuntu. < 1260622380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Freedom through obsolescence. Those who still really need to can now build windows executables from the comfort of Debian." (To quote the package description.) < 1260622384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1260622406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1260622419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you used it+ < 1260622422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/+/?/ < 1260622423 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260622432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how is it used? < 1260622450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just overriding CC? < 1260622454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least here it uses the "i586-mingw32msvc-" prefix. < 1260622465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about windows dll stuff < 1260622475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both mingw and msvc? What sense does that make? < 1260622479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o blah.exe blah.c" for the minimal case. < 1260622485 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It means the msvc runtime libs. < 1260622494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1260622509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do you link to a .dll there < 1260622514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you need some .lib < 1260622519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and header files for it and such < 1260622553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't remember how that works, sorry. The necessary bits for OpenGL were built-in, I think. < 1260622560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260622583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If allegro distributes a ready-built .lib as they most likely do, you can probably just link to that < 1260622620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There might've been some conversion tool involved. At least the mingw32-runtime package libs have a .a extension. < 1260622633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, of course mingw libs are .a < 1260622642 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster confused me with his .libness < 1260622654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260622655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, it's quite likely that allegro distributes a mingw .a < 1260622660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260622675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it's admittedly more likely that they distribute only a .lib < 1260622691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, there is the tool. < 1260622698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# DMC - < 1260622698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : zip, < 1260622698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 7z, < 1260622698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : exe < 1260622698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1260622699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1260622702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260622703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail < 1260622711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looked like one line originallyt < 1260622714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay for /flushq < 1260622716 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( no one answered my Marble Drop question < 1260622718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it would have been worse < 1260622752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything from dos, mingw to msvc 6 and msvc 9 < 1260622758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dos and* < 1260622769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can use i586-mingw32msvc-dlltool to generate what you need for linking against a DLL, but not sure. < 1260622863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe. The main use case is to create DLLs.) < 1260622900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is an a < 1260622902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.a* < 1260622910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's useful, then. < 1260622949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is testing with wine atm < 1260622952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they offer a mingw download then they will give everything you need. < 1260622958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X Error of failed request: GLXBadDrawable < 1260622965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wasn't even using opengl < 1260623120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try http://omploader.org/vMno4MA/pong-win32.tar.gz < 1260623130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doesn't work under wine giving opengl error < 1260623138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if it will work under real windows < 1260623232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well did it work? < 1260623260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you are on windows you clearly can't be scared of binaries < 1260623286 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can, however, be AFK on occasion < 1260623296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh sorry < 1260623317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to work < 1260623350 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even uses my keyboard's s key instead of my keyboard layout's. < 1260623366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh nice < 1260623378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and the game itself? Works well? < 1260623388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is always hard for the creator to tlel < 1260623390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell* < 1260623402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all I know exactly what it is supposed to do and exactly what I thought of testing < 1260623440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does the circles show up as opaque or do they clearly have an alpha channel? < 1260623467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(can be seen when they cross each other easily) < 1260623468 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "clear" :-P < 1260623473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1260623491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they can < 1260623502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260623514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and how is the actual game play < 1260623517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: add pause < 1260623529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-tab is pause :-P < 1260623536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it doesn't afaik? < 1260623537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it? < 1260623544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so I'm very surprised < 1260623551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because background doesn't pause it here < 1260623560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May be an allegro quirk on windows. < 1260623563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hey, since you're at it, do you want to test the Windows binaries of my game too?! It's just some two-three years late w.r.t. the returning of the project, but I'm sure it'd still be very useful to test. In some sort of hypothetical sense. < 1260623590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Says Mr. I Don't Trust Foreign Binaries :-P < 1260623613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, very funny < 1260623633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh there seems to be a set_display_switch_mode I could call < 1260623665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: One minor flaw: the circle needs to touch the edge, not fly off it, to score a point < 1260623700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you mean? That the circle should be allowed to pass a bit outside before it scores a point? < 1260623712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should be fully outside < 1260623739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm is that the original pong behaviour? I haven't been able to find pong in ubuntu repos nor in portage < 1260623769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ubuntu had a 3D pong thing < 1260623773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thingy* < 1260623783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original pong does the common trick of simply moving the paddles a bit inside the map instead of putting them at the very edge < 1260623820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I do move them inside, by 5 pixels < 1260623822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe too little < 1260623833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they are 10 px wide < 1260623839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I meant by at least the width of a circle :-) < 1260623840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Don't worry, I can't find the windows binary at all. < 1260623842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is actually 15 pixels inside that it is checking < 1260623860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the original arcade pong it's more like 5 times the size of the ball < 1260623868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm okay < 1260623883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I < 1260623885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe half the size of it and allow it to pass half the way out < 1260623890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be a Makefile.win, though. I think it even includes an icon in the .exe. < 1260623917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway hitting any place after half of it makes no sense (would only push it out further) < 1260623932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so allowing it to pass exactly half of the paddle sounds like a good idea < 1260623956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, it has no gameplay value beyond that point < 1260623974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is downloading the video Deewiant linked to < 1260623992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think it's prettier if it goes all the way instead of suddenly disappearing < 1260624014 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess there might be some multiplayer amusement involved in having somebody hit the ball further in < 1260624068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that would require me to rewrite my very simple ball bouncing code < 1260624079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just checks where on the line that is the start of the paddle we hit < 1260624103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260624107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get some strange effects as of now if you allowed hitting after half had passed < 1260624151 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just flip the sign of the x-velocity if it's past the paddle? < 1260624155 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260624224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is very inellegantly played, why don't they just move to where the ball is < 1260624233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what game? < 1260624239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPkUvfL8T1I < 1260624254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a funny error. < 1260624256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i586-mingw32msvc-gcc -o ui.o ui.c -c -std=c99 -Wall -Werror -O2 -I. < 1260624256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc1: warnings being treated as errors < 1260624256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ui.c:254: warning: C99 inline functions are not supported; using GNU89 < 1260624266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you had it too? < 1260624273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also yeah I got loads of it < 1260624359 0 :immibis!n=immibis@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260624370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh it does allow some strange pushing < 1260624410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I predicted placing them further in would break stuff. It did but not the way I expected < 1260624528 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If you actually *do* want to try out another Windows binary (are you bored or something?), http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.zip < 1260624549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is that game? < 1260624564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikan_t%C3%A4hti < 1260624571 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a clone of it. < 1260624592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? screeshot? < 1260624601 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some somewhere. < 1260624720 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, this game is more complicated than the version I remember :-P < 1260624730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eh, well, here's a very fast screenshot, but it's not really showing up its best side: http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.png < 1260624745 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a better side? < 1260624766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Maybe not. Though the gemstones you find aren't too shabby, I seem to remember. < 1260624783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can also rotate and zoom with the cursor keys, that might not be immediately obvious. < 1260624791 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260624800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was just about to ask if I can get a more zoomed-out view somehow :-) < 1260624808 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And there's a very realistic day/night cycle. < 1260624874 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose I can change the camera pitch in any way? < 1260624895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, no. But you can drag around the map with the left mouse button. < 1260624903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll snap back to the fixed position when you let go. :p < 1260624913 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right mouse button, actually < 1260624918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, right. < 1260624995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well fixed those issues < 1260625012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, and you can add a command line flag "-q 1" to get a lot nicer heightmap. :p < 1260625014 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I forget the mechanics: what can player A do if B has the star? < 1260625033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can try to find a horseshoe and take that to one of the starting points before B gets the star there. < 1260625035 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oo, awesome. :-) < 1260625057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In the sometimes-used house rules, you can also attack the other player, but that's highly nonstandard. < 1260625059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why isn't the nicer heightmap on by default < 1260625067 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/?/ < 1260625082 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It wasn't fast enough on the school SGI O2 workstations this was demoed on. :p < 1260625087 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1260625141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260625150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had totally forgotten that -q flag, I just found it from the project report now. < 1260625163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, source link (or 64-bit linux binary) < 1260625171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The default is "-q 4" which uses every fourth point from the heightmap. < 1260625178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck playing it with all the text being in Finnish < 1260625194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, meh good point < 1260625197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so forget it < 1260625217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, didn't they use gettext()? < 1260625219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1260625219 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although there isn't that much text < 1260625224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, right. There's not *that* much text, though; I can give you a translation. < 1260625228 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not localized, no. < 1260625228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err gettext _() < 1260625229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1260625245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translation would be nice yeah < 1260625245 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just using gettext wouldn't help much without, you know, the localizations. < 1260625254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1260625303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/bleh.tar.gz might be a 64-bit linux binary; it needs that "data" subdir and it needs to be accessible so that fopen("data/foo") works. There was a bit of a deadline problem to do anything nice. < 1260625332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also libglut.so.3.) < 1260625355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the positive side, you can edit the .obj files in the data subdir to provide all new models. < 1260625519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, updated pong btw to fix those issues: http://omploader.org/vMno4OQ/pong-win32.tar.gz < 1260625524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The heightmap is bona fide real data, by the way. (The ground colors are not.) < 1260625645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(Cannot contact the database server: Can't connect to MySQL server on '10.0.6.32' (4) (10.0.6.32))" I don't think I've gotten that from Wikipedia earlier. < 1260625896 0 :ais523_unidentif!i=5cecbb40@gateway/web/freenode/x-cakttddelbgfiumt JOIN :#esoteric < 1260625956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, hi there < 1260625971 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260625978 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not my computer < 1260625979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so what about translations + linux binary or source? < 1260625982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, ah < 1260625985 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a Windows computer that's probably full of malware < 1260625991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, something wrong with your computer? < 1260626000 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260626003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, oh what? < 1260626006 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so wrong I can't use it < 1260626010 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I left it at home < 1260626016 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it's pretty much falling apart < 1260626017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, you have one at work iirc? < 1260626021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, so get a new one < 1260626022 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the screen is coming out from its frame, etc < 1260626026 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to < 1260626028 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just haven't yet < 1260626029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1260626039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, what about the centos box at work? < 1260626046 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's now a win7 box < 1260626056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I already linked to a Linux binary. Let me see about translations. < 1260626063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif, I thought it dual-booted? < 1260626064 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the centos box had too many hardware issues < 1260626069 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both dual-boot in theory < 1260626075 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the win partition didn't work on the first < 1260626080 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the linux partition doesn't work on the second < 1260626082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260626729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/translate.txt has probably most of the strings in the game translated. < 1260626804 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which game? < 1260626843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif: Long story, are you sure you don't want to just check today's clog? < 1260626863 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check it later; not particularly easy for me to do so now < 1260626863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_unidentif: We've been having Deewiant work as a test monkey for windows binaries. < 1260626871 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I may be going home soon anyway < 1260626876 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there might not be time for a long story as it is < 1260626918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To summarize: it's a OpenGL version of a Finnish board game I (partially) did for the 3d graphics programming course a couple of years back. < 1260626925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In 2005, apparently.) < 1260626984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think I found a bug < 1260626994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, someone can get stuck at the Canary islands < 1260627008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming 0 coins there < 1260627015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That is a well-known bug. < 1260627017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you be allowed to move two spaces < 1260627028 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's just the heretical new rules. < 1260627035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: We don't roll that way. < 1260627046 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you even lose the game for that player if he gets stuck? :-) < 1260627053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NVIDIA: could not open the device file /dev/nvidiactl (Permission denied). < 1260627053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freeglut (./afrikka): Unable to create direct context rendering for window 'Afrikan tďż˝hti' < 1260627053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may hurt performance. < 1260627057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why < 1260627060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is fast anyway < 1260627063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with -g 1 < 1260627067 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-q 1 < 1260627071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260627089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah I meant that < 1260627092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm not sure. There's a "the game is now unwinnable" message in the sources. < 1260627115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That happens if the star is there, so at least you check for that much < 1260627132 0 :Wh1teWolf!n=Wh1teWol@77.18.68.250.tmi.telenormobil.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260627173 0 :ais523_unidentif!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1260627377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I can't really understand my logic here any more. I think I only toggle the unwinnable flag if the star has been found, a "thief" coin is uncovered, none of the remaining players have a star/horseshoe, and there are no horseshoes left in the map. < 1260627395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So I think I don't check for the Canary Islands special cases. < 1260627401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D'oh. < 1260627416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you keep track of horseshoes that have been found before the star? < 1260627427 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1260627427 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or no, that was in no way implied by what you said. < 1260627498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rules were written based on the physical copy of the game I have here, and that's from some time in the 1980s, and doesn't contain the special rule anyway. < 1260627499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is egobot? < 1260627526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice we don't even the skip the turns for the player who's stuck on the island; we simply ridicule him/her every time it's his/her turn. < 1260627527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original rules certainly don't account for the special case :-) < 1260627545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But can that player do anything? < 1260627559 0 :Wh1teWolf!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260627574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If on the larger island, yes, you can walk from one end to another repeatedly. On the smaller island, not much. < 1260627630 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Looks like an upgrade broke it. < 1260627633 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fixfixfix* < 1260627638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The game is at least clever enough to handle that case: if you have no options you can do, it always adds an "end turn" option to the sidebar. < 1260627649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, good I need bf_txtgen NAO! < 1260627653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1260627666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can run the same bit of Java locally, you know. < 1260627670 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260627678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "meh" < 1260627687 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Isn't egobot written in C? < 1260627697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen !dlrow olleH < 1260627704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1260627705 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :110 ++++++++++[>+++>++++++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.++++++++.++++++.---.++++++++.<-.>--------.---..-------.>++.>. [600] < 1260627714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hej världen! < 1260627717 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :186 +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----. [453] < 1260627751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hepskukkuu maailmainen! < 1260627754 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :182 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.+++.<-----.>++.<..>..>++++.<--------.<<----..>--.>-.+.<<.>.>+.<----.>.>+.-----------------------. [471] < 1260627755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: xD < 1260627762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what does that mean? < 1260627765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello world? < 1260627769 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello world. < 1260627771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, literal translation < 1260627772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260627779 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: I am under the impression that bf_txtgen is the same thing as that textgen.java from somewhere. Being written in C doesn't mean you couldn't run other processes. < 1260627784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh "literal" as in "funnily broken"? < 1260627806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, something like that < 1260627815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+.<-----. < 1260627816 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hej världen!. < 1260627820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1260627826 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixxie: you're right, from looking at the source: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/1fe97d50a1d8/multibot_cmds/interps/bf_txtgen/textgen.java < 1260627827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the extra dot there fizzie ^ < 1260627832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's the newline. < 1260627841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260627847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +++++++++++++++[>+>++>+++++>+++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>---.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.<++.>++++++++++++.>.-------------------------------.<----.------.--------.+.+++++++++.<+. < 1260627847 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hej världen! < 1260627907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X on voittaja! < 1260627907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A winner is X! < 1260627914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that really correct translation? < 1260627924 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1260627933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it literal one? < 1260627937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it a* < 1260627937 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1260627952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so it should have been "X won" basically < 1260627953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260627954 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X is a winner!" would possibly be more literal. < 1260627959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260627962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "A winner is X" is the meme. < 1260627968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah < 1260627970 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voittaja on X! < 1260627976 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's more "The winner is X" < 1260627978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if you could insert the strings in the binary < 1260628011 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of them are in multiple pieces. < 1260628021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could get close, I guess. < 1260628048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, problem is length < 1260628065 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space-padding where needed, abbreviating the English also. < 1260628090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wouldn't \0 padding work? < 1260628103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or do you depend on fixed length? < 1260628118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in most cases it would work right. < 1260628125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :│ ...... db "Out of memory when allocating mesh vertex array (%s).\0" │ < 1260628134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do have English strings there < 1260628142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the error messages are in English, yes. < 1260628170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some "Impossible: X" ones too. < 1260628229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The terrain.map file in the data directory should be human-readable text too, if you want to customize it. < 1260628259 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Some of the node numbers do have special rules attached, though.) < 1260628359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260628383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(14, 15 and 31.) < 1260628406 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't feel like distinguishing them? :-P < 1260628429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The .map file format parsing and such were done in a relatively early stage of the project. < 1260628438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The "game logic" part was done with the deadline looming. < 1260628444 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260628471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd show you the commit frequency from a "svn log", but "svn: Could not open the requested SVN filesystem" < 1260628475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The repository must've moved. < 1260628521 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why you should always use a DVCS locally when using a school's CCVS system :-) < 1260628544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I used a local CCVS system, it's just that the C has moved. :p < 1260628557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah :-P < 1260628649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've switched to a more DVCS-oriented way nowadays, but that was back then. < 1260628715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is C there < 1260628721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260628723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :central < 1260628723 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it centralized? < 1260628738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably more like "center" in the "has moved" part. < 1260628836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found quite a pile of SVN repositories, but none of them seem to contain that particular project. < 1260628899 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, there it probably is. < 1260629076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There actually aren't so many separate commits that it'd look impressive; but you can deduce something from the fact that the last commit was made at 2006-04-06 05:43:19, and that is indeed in the local time zone. As I remember it, we had the "return the project and demonstrate it to the course assistant" session booked for 2006-04-06 morning. < 1260629400 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260629435 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders. < 1260629450 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, .al is Albania. < 1260629534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what about .gl? < 1260629547 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greenland < 1260629554 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was quasi-seriously considering "zzie.fi", actually. < 1260629566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why not .ie? < 1260629596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ireland, like probably a majority of the ccTLDs, only sells domains if you live or have an office or have at least something to do with the country in question. < 1260629610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want .gl. < 1260629619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least officially. Don't know what the actual practice is, but that's the regulation. < 1260629647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll have to ask my Albanian friend to register it for me. < 1260629849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CcTLD list claims to have a * for all that allow foreign registration, though that's probably not kept religiously up-to-date. < 1260629959 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260630031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, untranslated string: "kierroksella uudelleen"? < 1260630063 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"again on [a/the] round" < 1260630105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It's the second half of "Yritä seuraavalla". < 1260630119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yritä seuraavalla kierroksella uudelleen" => "Try again on the next round" or some-such. < 1260630443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you meant you didn't get things done well before the deadline? < 1260630445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1260630454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always make sure to be done at least a week before < 1260630476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming I as notified before a week in advance) < 1260630548 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am bad with deadlines and scheduling things. < 1260630847 0 :MizardX-!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260631344 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260631510 0 :FireyFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260631516 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260631528 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1260631830 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260631836 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1260632040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, usually those flash-based "navigate our shop with this panorama picture" things do proper perspective correction, but this one somehow looks rather freaky, especially if you navigate around it: http://www.korkeavuorenkatu.fi/fin/panorama/faberart.htm < 1260632181 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260632203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's just that it needs to be zoomed in so that the "natural" field-of-view of the picture matches at least a bit the field-of-view caused by the monitor. < 1260632866 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260633180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is this hubert anyway < 1260633239 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hubert Farnsworth? < 1260633258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260633280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait, haven't we done that already today? < 1260633282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: didn't we already men < 1260633293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "already men"? < 1260633303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interrupted* < 1260633307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260633322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you need to mark it by ... or something < 1260633334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*never* < 1260633340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why npot < 1260633341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not* < 1260633349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :confusing you is the meaning of the universe, after all < 1260633410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no < 1260633413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the reverse < 1260633425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, only not, sideways < 1260633479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe likes shooting fish in barrels, clearly < 1260633506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no I wouldn't say so < 1260633517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, more like finishing barrels in shootguns < 1260633532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks he broke AnMaster  < 1260633546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wrong. Only dried frog < 1260633555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1260633650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not at all < 1260633658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that all but one google hit for "but tell me hubert" is for this channel < 1260633675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this hubert about? < 1260633682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :hubert who? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1260633700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the final one is harry potter fanfic :D < 1260633708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XD < 1260633728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with sex in it, if the introductory warning is to be believed < 1260633740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1260633752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The first in an irregular series of stories." < 1260633768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we looking at shakespeare's work here? < 1260633770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back listening to Swedish jazz < 1260633785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some compilation of Swedish jazz < 1260633787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice < 1260633790 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well done, you've successfully described all internet fiction (fan fic or otherwise) < 1260633807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: um how so? < 1260633819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wrong < 1260633820 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"an irregular series of stories" < 1260633829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh? < 1260633829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a quote from the page, actually < 1260633835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1260633850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how comes you know that? < 1260633854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wrote it? HAH < 1260633859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discovered < 1260633861 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generalization! < 1260633869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all logic is based on generalization < 1260633869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how so? < 1260633871 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well-known fact < 1260633898 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all internet fiction I've seen can be described as an irregular series of stories -> all internet fiction can be described as an irregular series of stories < 1260633917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that implication is not true. < 1260633924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1260633931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all logic works like that, because some logic works like that < 1260633937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well known example: All swans I have seen are white < 1260633942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus all swans are white < 1260633944 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260633951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except there are black swans in Australia < 1260633953 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I know this is not true. It's fun to be stupid, though) < 1260633961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes < 1260633975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ehird hasn't realised this yet < 1260633986 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1260634009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so you are not aware of the distinction between deduction and induction? < 1260634016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: I am < 1260634032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that it's entertaining to pretend not to < 1260634048 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the distinction, of course, is that induction isn't logic) < 1260634095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what? afaik induction proofs work over countable sets? < 1260634098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misremember < 1260634127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right? < 1260634152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical induction is deductive reasoning < 1260634165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, "fun to be stupid"... < 1260634175 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While regular induction is just "it has worked so far, so it must always be the case" < 1260634178 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I missed the sarcasm < 1260634192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that's because it wasn't there ;P < 1260634205 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh... I broke clang < 1260634210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how? < 1260634223 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by being really stupid < 1260634230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how? < 1260634246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by making a change to the lexer that I apparently did wrong < 1260634254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alarums. Enter Iohn and Hubert. < 1260634254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iohn. How goes the day with vs? oh tell me Hubert < 1260634254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- MR. William SHAKESPEARES Comedies, Histories & Tragedies, Published according to the True Original Copies London Printed by Ifaac Iaggard, and Ed, Bount. 1623 < 1260634258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, are you working on clang? < 1260634261 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where Hubert got to our topic. < 1260634273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260634286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, uhu < 1260634335 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, there's no comma there. < 1260634382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what coppro and AnMaster said. also there is _transfinite_ induction which doesn't require countability < 1260634396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how does that work? < 1260634396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erkh < 1260634403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? < 1260634407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/AnMaster/Slereah/ < 1260634416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact it is more likely from this actual, later copy of the King John play: < 1260634417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Alarums. Enter KING JOHN and HUBERT.] < 1260634417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KING JOHN. How goes the day with us? O, tell me, Hubert. < 1260634453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there was no "but" there: but tell me, hubert < 1260634457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iircv < 1260634459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc* < 1260634461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well ordered (or even well founded) set instead of just naturals. < 1260634470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway why did shakespear like hubert so much < 1260634473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, well, fungot does mix that stuff up. < 1260634473 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah oh you're breaking up really really bad it was based on a true life story or something yeah < 1260634479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use it to prove things about all ordinals, say < 1260634480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, like the reals? < 1260634486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260634492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, reals are totally ordered, not well ordered < 1260634497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the usual ordering < 1260634504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm? < 1260634523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ordering means every non-empty set has a smallest element < 1260634532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well the rationals are countable. you can map them to the integer by using the diagonal < 1260634553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um this is irrelevent to what i said < 1260634556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*vant < 1260634625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then you lost me < 1260634672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260634672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so example of uncountable but well ordered set < 1260634672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Irreverent to what you said. < 1260634712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the axiom of choice allows you to give a well ordering for any set, no matter how big. Zermelo's proof. However it needs to have no connection to any usual ordering. < 1260634742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aleph-1, being the first uncountable ordinal, is the smallest example < 1260634769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a von Neumann ordinal it is the set of all countable ordinals < 1260634793 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still can't decide if I believe the axiom of choice is true or not, and if it has consequences for physical reality either way < 1260634796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um wait < 1260634838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cardinal. but that presentation gives a well ordering of it. < 1260634948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's name as an ordinal is omega-1 < 1260635039 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number explains everything i said about this so far, i think < 1260635075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need to sleep a bit before understanding this < 1260635077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yawn* < 1260635088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1260635596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The axiom of choice definitely has no consequences for physical reality. < 1260635598 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now befuddled < 1260635637 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC contains models of ZF-C and vice versa, doesn't it? < 1260635670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not strictly a model < 1260635672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it that my change is causing runtime errors in an area not in my codepath? < 1260635690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but an embedding of sorts? < 1260635700 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a non-strict model and what's non-strict about it? < 1260635721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you had a model in the technical sense you would have a proof of its consistence, violating godel incompleteness < 1260635769 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1260635782 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So assuming that ZF is consistent, are there models? < 1260635798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's more like: given a model of one, you can construct a model of the other < 1260635851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :godel's completeness theorem says essentially that, yes, iirc < 1260635872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course this requires working inside ZF to start with... < 1260635975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not an expert on this < 1260636053 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I guess the completeness theorem does pretty much say that. < 1260636325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _think_ cohen's forcing used for one direction of the proof requires working with ZF as the metatheory, but i haven't exactly read the proof. < 1260636348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because forcing requires some rather heavy set theory stuff < 1260637564 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fixed it < 1260637642 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260637654 0 :quantumEd!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260637712 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forccing?? bloody hell < 1260637747 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"consequences for physical reality." ? because reality is finite or what < 1260637748 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1260637769 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by reality I guess you mean sockdrawers < 1260638880 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260639070 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260640505 0 :calamari_!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260641628 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, assuming I'm remembering this stuff correctly, doesn't the Banach-Tarski paradox depend on the axiom of choice being true? Obviously nobody is actually going to be able to attempt that kind of disassembly/reassembly physically, but I think that shows AOC isnt devoid of applicability to physical theory < 1260641661 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, it's a conseqence of axiom of choice < 1260641674 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter whether choice is true or not (whatever that means) < 1260641790 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just meant 'true' as a sloppy way of expressing whether or not that axiom is included in a formal system < 1260641818 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1260642307 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1260642317 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260642427 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, here's a link that seems to make the case that modern physics already presumes the axiom of choice to be true: < 1260642435 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://books.google.com/books?id=4paH9zuYzmgC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=axiom+of+choice+and+physics&source=bl&ots=72CmYhfqCB&sig=C-97pzDcvE5Cok64aKMxvsmLUao&hl=en&ei=b04kS-2IA9TDlAeU9YH2CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=axiom%20of%20choice%20and%20physics&f=false < 1260642499 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260642505 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260642623 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really understand that stuff :/ < 1260642636 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that I don't know physics well enough to get it, maybe < 1260642876 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the details arent that important, the outline of the argument is that von neumann's analysis of quantum superposition made use of math that depends on axiom of choice - as to whether that really supports the somewhat strong conclusion he draws, i dunno < 1260642883 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260642925 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not actually arguing for/against AOC having any physical relevance, but I think its an interesting question that cant just be dismissed, if you take the relationship between reality/physics/math seriously < 1260643473 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1260643482 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260643821 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260643833 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260643843 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260644306 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260644313 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260644512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260644544 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260645547 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260645667 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260646442 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260646645 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260646678 0 :immibis!n=immibis@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260651170 0 :`Fuco``!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260652602 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260652968 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260653372 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260653380 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260654522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: on the contrary, the Banach-Tarski paradox has no application to physics, either. < 1260654673 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I agree with that, but after trying to research the question a bit I would say that it seems pretty clear the mathematics of modern physics makes use of proofs dependent on axiom of choice in some places < 1260654695 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems from my attempting to understand the issues (subsequent to earlier semirandom musings) that there really is a pretty direct connection < 1260654752 0 :augur_!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260654778 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm quite skeptical. < 1260654812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the axiom of choice doesn't even talk about real things. It talks about things known as "ZFC sets". < 1260654820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical analysis gets prettier when you use the axiom of choice < 1260654860 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it can be stated as simply placing a restriction on what things are ZFC sets and what things aren't. < 1260654910 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260655074 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the ontological question of whether or not the mathematical rules we use to describe reality are actually embedded within reality in some way, or are directly synonymous with it, or are only related via the mechanism of essentially subjective mentation is still pretty vexatious < 1260655103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define vexatious < 1260655122 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* annoying: causing irritation or annoyance; "tapping an annoying rhythm on his glass with his fork"; "aircraft noise is particularly bothersome ... \ [17]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Vexatious litigation is legal action which is brought, regardless of its merits, solely to harass or subdue an adversary. ... < 1260655188 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define mentation < 1260655190 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* thinking: the process of using your mind to consider something carefully; "thinking always made him frown"; "she paused for thought" \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Mental activity. The process of thinking < 1260655230 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're asking whether the definition of a man-made concept is embedded in reality in some way. < 1260655261 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does which color means "go" have any bearing on physics? No, definitely not. < 1260655282 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not that simple, the external universe is the cause of all our thoughts, and we are not in any way separate from the universe < 1260655312 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if materialism is basically correct, which I think it is, human ideas are simply another observable objective physical phenomenon in the universe, caused via its action and bearing the imprint of its structure < 1260655340 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea that human thought structure is in some way independent of reality is actually profoundly antiscientific, in my opinion < 1260655358 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but "bearing the imprint" doesn't mean that fundamental truths will embed themselves in the definitions that we choose in order to simplify things. < 1260655364 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I completely agree. < 1260655379 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The axiom of choice is part of a definition that we choose in order to simplify things. < 1260655392 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me it's an open question of how exactly our mathematical physics relates to reality - to what extent it is 'really out there'/ < 1260655414 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i have two oranges in one hand and two oranges in another hand and then i put them on the table and count 4 oranges, it seems pretty objective < 1260655431 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but reading cosmology and the like, it can be harder to have that same feeling < 1260655495 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260655523 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess if I believe the facts of arithmetic, and its axioms, can be 'out there' in the universe, then the axiom of choice could be implicate in the structure of how things work as well < 1260655551 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because "two" and "four" have definitions that are strongly linked with physics; we can observe things whose behavior corresponds to the behavior of the integers. < 1260655570 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the example of riemannian geometry being created back when everyone thought space was flat and Newtonian is an example I could cite < 1260655596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that if we observed things that behaved like ZF sets, it would make sense to talk about whether the axiom of choice is true for the universe or not. < 1260655647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think that's a neat analogy. Given that the universe's geometry is not Euclidean, would you say that Euclid's fifth postulate is not true in this universe? < 1260655699 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think I would < 1260655739 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the large scale structure of space time is curved, then you can either have multiple or zero parallels relative to a given line from a given point < 1260655759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if we discovered some other area of physics that *does* follow the laws of Euclidean geometry? < 1260655784 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well thats the problem, quantum theory basically does, and thats why we cant fit it with GR, right? < 1260655800 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260655869 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we dont know how to mathematically reformulate QFT in gravitationally curved spacetime in a consistent way < 1260655889 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, obviously, neither QM nor GR is a complete theory of stuff. As far as this part of geometry goes, GR seems to describe it better. < 1260655892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure it's the non-euclideanness as much as the fact the geometry is changing with time... < 1260655969 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yeah, when it comes to drawing parallel lines to infinity, that is definitely on the scale of the cosmological ;) < 1260656358 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still haven't really answered my question, though. < 1260656370 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which question? < 1260656430 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :physics and euclidean geometry? < 1260656632 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if we . . . of Euclidean geometry? < 1260656685 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess I have the belief that there is an actual set of true physical laws that are consisent across the observable universe and are expressible in mathematical form, and they will be all in agreement < 1260656724 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260656734 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I would think that having spacetime be treated as Euclidean when modeling one process and non-Euclidean in another model would be a sign that one or another model was incomplete < 1260656803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's leprechauns all the way down < 1260656836 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260657664 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260657731 0 :augur!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260657781 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260658012 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-29-218.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260658151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260658178 0 :augur!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260658623 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260658969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260659407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, hang on a moment. < 1260659427 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would agree with you if I were talking about something like QM and GR. < 1260659468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But suppose that we actually do manage to find a complete set of laws for the universe. < 1260659544 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/do/did/ < 1260659555 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one part of these laws (e.g. its description of spacetime) consisted of a non-Euclidean geometry, and another (e.g. its description of some spooky thing we haven't discovered yet) consisted of Euclidean geometry. < 1260660154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah lovecraft had it backwards < 1260660347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260662325 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260662548 0 :swordprincess!n=swordpri@resnet224-207.resnet.wmich.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260662689 0 :swordprincess!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260663793 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260665660 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1260668264 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260669111 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260669114 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question about the applicability to our experience of the parallel postulate seems to be exclusively in the realm of the spacetime geometry, the fact that something other than the geometry of space might use the tools of geometry would seem to be separate < 1260669160 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, its basically an experimental question - I set up a pair of infinitely long straight poles, set up the angles just so where I'm at - and what happens as you follow the bars away in space? < 1260670638 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-245.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260671647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<coppro> how is it that my change is causing runtime errors in an area not in my codepath? <-- what caused it? < 1260674006 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260675434 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260676345 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260679285 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260679357 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260679614 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260679634 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260679686 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260680443 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260682757 0 :asiekierka2!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260683167 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260684549 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260685759 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-99-182.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260686275 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260686502 0 :nsinreal!n=opera@145-94-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260686519 0 :nsinreal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1260686525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260688468 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260689075 0 :asiekierka2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260689737 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260690147 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-155-73-18.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260690221 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260690933 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260691199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260691200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260691352 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260691480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260691491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hours ago, remind me < 1260691499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just brought it up < 1260691557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duran duran in cyberspace < 1260691740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260691753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, duran duran being some contemporary band? < 1260691757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to us I mean) < 1260691771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80s band i think < 1260691783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow i only vaguely recall the name myself < 1260691913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you one of those people who can "rattle off the names of a dozen or more Renaissance era composers or musical compositions"? < 1260692151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not really. My main interest is in the range 1700-1800 with some specific composers outside that < 1260692173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I rather like Vivaldi for example, but I never liked Bach much) < 1260693920 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260693928 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello :-) < 1260694038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jello < 1260694054 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lello < 1260694066 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we're going that wai < 1260694075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wai! < 1260694583 0 :nsinreal!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260695447 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :`Fuco` < 1260697593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the program was invoking itself recursively; the debugger was running on the initial instance that wasn't running through that code path < 1260697615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, err context? < 1260697634 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what caused my issues with clang < 1260697681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*clang* < 1260697969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ă h < 1260697971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah* < 1260698128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so < 1260698143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no significant performance hits, which is good < 1260698214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, so clang was invoking itself? < 1260698215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260698253 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, it just recently migrated from being two separate programs; I didn't realize it actually still called itself rather than passing the data around internally < 1260698260 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect that will eventually disappear < 1260698832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260698884 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260699094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260699173 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260699203 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260701889 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260701980 0 :augur!n=augur@pool-96-231-169-236.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260702266 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-2-164.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260702533 0 :calamari_!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260703432 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260703446 0 :quantumEd!n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1260704001 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260705363 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260705756 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260705779 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260705998 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1260706043 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love firefly! < 1260706074 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice to know that you're liked < 1260706157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly, but don't you ask yourself "why"? < 1260706177 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely kaylee < 1260706178 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmph < 1260706185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, eh? < 1260706198 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's why < 1260706205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, define:kaylee < 1260706215 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've never seen firefly? < 1260706229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, he is in here atm.... < 1260706236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not in real life I haven't seen him < 1260706264 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.labarc.com/Black/KayleeHammock2.jpg < 1260706269 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is kaylee < 1260706271 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I knew he was referring to the series < 1260706278 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you didn't realise < 1260706279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :series? < 1260706280 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1260706296 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen one episode of the series, and I didn't like it < 1260706303 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, some americanish TV series < 1260706307 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know a lot about it < 1260706316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1260706435 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you know that kaylee is fucking hot < 1260706498 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260707622 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260707627 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260708671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines a language *based* around C++ style templates < 1260708689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or based on possibly < 1260708897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260709841 0 :coppro!n=coppro@d75-159-19-254.abhsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260710014 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: all girls are hot. < 1260710057 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :girls being discussed in #esoteric, what is this world coming to < 1260710132 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1260710145 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-245.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260710398 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, that'd at least be better than #not-math :P < 1260710419 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel has a very different flavour from #not-math < 1260710452 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#not-math is cynical and bitter, this channel is childish and enthusiastic < 1260710545 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: is your purpose in life to try to balance the situation? < 1260710613 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's what i was bred for < 1260710667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how channels have flavors. < 1260710680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i believe it's possible < 1260710687 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like chocolate, please < 1260710709 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any group with over 3 people will eventually turn into the ideal flavorless group < 1260712421 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260712422 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260712422 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260712809 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260712809 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260712809 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260713945 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260714808 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260715745 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260715745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260715864 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260715869 0 :lifthrasiir!i=gE3ZrN7f@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260715917 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260716648 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260716959 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260717042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> series? < 1260717069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i didn't think you were male and she is female, i'd suspect you wee anniefan from the iwc forum :D < 1260717075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*were < 1260717236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION admittedly doesn't know firefly either, except that it has some ardent fans < 1260717251 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have fans :D < 1260717340 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's cool < 1260717365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<lament> #not-math is cynical and bitter, this channel is childish and enthusiastic < 1260717380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well when ehird isn't here, then it's all four at the same time < 1260717408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't come by this weekend as i thought he said he would :( < 1260717461 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefly has fans, not FireFly < 1260717466 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :camel case sucks < 1260717480 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CamelCase owns < 1260717487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: shh, don't make him sad now < 1260717506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION brings out FireFly's greatest fan -----### < 1260717519 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch < 1260717523 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't see that one coming < 1260717528 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it < 1260717551 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan likes swatting me < 1260718170 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes. (_Planew B_ FTW) < 1260718248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Søket pĂĄ - "planew b" - fant ikke samsvar med noen dokumenter.' < 1260718301 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Planet B < 1260718966 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: was that a somewhat convoluted of saying "That is the case when ehird isn't here; when he is, it's all four at the same time"? < 1260719001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ding* < 1260719056 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that a slightly ambiguous way of saying "yes"? < 1260719075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats uorygl -----### < 1260719193 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that a slightly idiosyncratic way of . . . < 1260719216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought *ding* was sort of a game show sound < 1260719240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot quite google a confirmation or not. < 1260719249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much, yeah. < 1260719259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse would be a toilet sound, or similar < 1260719271 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*buzz*? < 1260719277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1260719291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION probably is not up-to-date on the matter < 1260719307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since i haven't watched tv much for years < 1260719600 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260720853 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260721828 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260726295 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260730277 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260731442 0 :calamari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260731750 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260733005 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260737302 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-83-241.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260737315 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1260768389 0 :hugo_dc!n=hugo@189.186.53.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260768417 0 :hugo_dc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi esoteric people :D < 1260769118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260770863 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260772017 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260773827 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Pong timeout: 180 seconds" < 1260774132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260774236 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260774426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260774434 0 :Halph!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260774442 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1260774730 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260776088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260776744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MitD < 1260776749 0 :MitD!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1260776889 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :whatsthelongestn < 1260776893 0 :whatsthelongestn!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1260777155 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260777599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260779193 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260779193 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260789466 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260789602 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260789704 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260794203 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-73-18.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260796917 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260800637 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260800733 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260800733 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260800901 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-83-241.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260801323 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260801667 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260802236 0 :hugo_dc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Saliendo" < 1260802278 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-15-218.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260804121 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-mehuzfufpjtsugpc JOIN :#esoteric < 1260804254 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m6c8cd789 - draft of my (eso-ish)language < 1260804261 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should i chane in your opinion < 1260804274 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know JGR can be replaced with JL and JE < 1260804277 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one spot is free for sure < 1260804314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like an asm < 1260804383 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is one < 1260804388 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just want to be the "middleman" between RISC and CISC < 1260804411 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'll add DIV and MOD < 1260804477 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1260804479 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas < 1260804586 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1260804590 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the limit will be 20 commands < 1260804592 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding DIV and MOD < 1260804593 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else < 1260804682 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523? < 1260805284 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have DIV and MOD, you need MUL < 1260805445 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meta statements: PSH, POP, CAL, RET (possible with current commands, but makes it easier to implement methods) < 1260805489 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory-mapped registers: instruction pointer, stack pointer < 1260805523 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260805550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260805557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me, hours ago < 1260805589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers changing to checking iwc before logging on iwc < 1260805593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, < 1260805602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/iwc$/irc/ < 1260805686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260805816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION chuckles slightly at today's Lightning Made of Owls < 1260805878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1260806047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today's Square Root of Minus Garfield is rather ... meta < 1260806206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: balrog, death < 1260806503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't cthulhu chair an organization of them at one point... < 1260806680 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1260806700 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i consider MUL, CAL (EXT will be used as a RET) < 1260806702 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have 20 < 1260806798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. Why did my first final have to be the earliest possible final? < 1260806807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had almost forgotten that there was an 8 AM. < 1260806810 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m55d244ff < 1260806816 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, MizardX < 1260806832 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about IP, i will consider it < 1260806956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 AM, the forgotten horror of the ancients < 1260806969 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m68f02f74 < 1260807066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The last time I was up that early, I had stayed up for it. < 1260807069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... A year ago. < 1260807075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1260807787 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260807787 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260808056 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260808189 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260808796 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260809985 0 :ais523_unid!i=5cecbb40@gateway/web/freenode/x-vkaouxeveevsusuz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260810618 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i implemented it < 1260810619 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1260810682 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/nybblings_beta.zip < 1260810686 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-2-164.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260811430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260812571 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260814355 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asie[afk < 1260814358 0 :asie[afk!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asie[afk] < 1260814829 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260816926 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260817286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, asiekierka? < 1260817287 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1260817289 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, asiekierka! < 1260817418 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260817425 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm stumped < 1260817441 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1260817536 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://pastebin.com/m1613d8bd - works the first time, then it ignores the keyboard, then it works, etc... < 1260817965 0 :quantumEd!n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1260818016 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is restricted brainfuck still turing complete? restriction is to interpret ] as } assert(p == oldP); < 1260818026 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that loops must end up where you started from < 1260818037 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1260818046 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so, yes. < 1260818073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I think there are universal Turing machines that use only five cells. < 1260818103 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: i doubt it's been proven by anyone < 1260818106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: so, you should do it! < 1260818276 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: it could possibly depend on whether individual cells are bounded or not < 1260818293 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, I finished my "eso"lang < 1260818296 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always think of it unbounded but I guess that's not really correct... < 1260818297 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the interpreter is not buggy < 1260818301 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw what's eso about it < 1260818307 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it's "eso" < 1260818309 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looked totally plain to me < 1260818312 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the fact that it has 20 commands < 1260818328 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: some people like bounded, some like unbounded, and the properties of the two wrt turing-completeness are quite different < 1260818368 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, here's a neat idea: Brainfuck intros. Write a program in 4,096 BF instructions or less that runs on a tape with exactly 30,000 one-byte cells. It must output, in alternation, 307200 bytes interpreted as 256-color pixels on a 640x480 canvas, and 735 bytes interpreted as 8-bit 44100 Hz mono samples of a sixtieth of a second of audio. < 1260818452 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1260818468 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1260818468 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not 160x200 < 1260818471 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be better < 1260818508 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure? < 1260818527 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260818530 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's only 32000 bytes < 1260818531 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260818536 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why 4096 < 1260818540 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for BF you'd need 16384 < 1260818548 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually someone DID write an intro in BF < 1260818549 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using text < 1260818552 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 102x50 < 1260818555 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was 9 kb i thin < 1260818556 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1260818557 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but EPOCH < 1260818561 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the intro shouldn't be in brainfuck < 1260818575 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be in machine code, containing a brainfuck interpreter and its program < 1260818599 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My friend did that < 1260818607 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ~200-byte x86 BF interpreter < 1260818607 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that fits in a bootsector < 1260818612 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reads from bootdisk < 1260818616 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of folks put game of life into demos < 1260818621 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :game of lie < 1260818621 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of similar ? < 1260818624 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/nybblings_rc1.zip - Final, though might still have a bug or two, I seriously doubt it. < 1260818668 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, 4,096 BF instructions. < 1260818678 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :640x480 so it can look fancy. It doesn't need to look fancy, but it can. < 1260818706 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want it to look non-fancy, use a couple extra instructions to simulate a lower resolution. < 1260818979 0 :ais523_unid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1260819307 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260819641 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260822660 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260823090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260825073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the Ubuntu auto-startup-disk-creator thing doesn't really work < 1260825078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to reformat the USB drive by hand < 1260825084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reformatting drives always gets me scared < 1260826053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: There's a thing called bfvga. < 1260826062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It maps the brainfuck tape to the 320x200 VGA screen memory. < 1260826073 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It was used in some less-than-4k intro competition. < 1260826089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5060 < 1260826120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not exactly the same thing, but related. < 1260826140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd want to map every second cell, rather than the whole thing, to give calculation space < 1260826158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suppose with some drivers, you could just have the tape actually in video memory...) < 1260826185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, it's a DOS thing and it does keep the tape actually in video memory. < 1260827692 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282482.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260828353 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260828430 0 :ais523_new!i=93bcfe81@gateway/web/freenode/x-uotcaaziymvqpaxv JOIN :#esoteric < 1260828442 0 :ais523_new!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I online? < 1260828448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I'm online! < 1260828452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks Ubuntu driver person < 1260828463 0 :ais523_new!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260829556 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260830970 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what driveryness did they help you with? < 1260830991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realtek rtl8191se < 1260831007 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260831016 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I go look at the relevant bug report, and find that there's a driver already written and just waiting to be approved < 1260831023 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wiped out hours of someone else's work on a term project due today < 1260831039 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260831865 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may sound silly, but is there a debian program that lists all nearby wireless networks, like windows has? < 1260831963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetworkManager < 1260832096 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the systray icon? < 1260832106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260832112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :left-click and you should get a list < 1260832115 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently it says I am not connected to any network, even though I am on a LAN < 1260832124 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird... < 1260832137 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it lists no wireless networks, even though there is on in the house < 1260832152 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the wired network it says "device not managed" < 1260832172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, not managed means it's being connected some other way < 1260832257 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how? < 1260832273 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260832282 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people seem to suggest changing the config fil in /etc < 1260832311 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.73.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260832313 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://waffle.wootest.net/2009/12/13/nobel-speak/ < 1260832318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1260832322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone! < 1260832326 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B < 1260832339 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA I AM FIRE hello < 1260832344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was worried when you didn't show up on the weekend < 1260832354 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is considering an Android phone < 1260832360 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loooooooooooooong story. < 1260832369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet < 1260832424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260832431 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The iPhone, despite numerous flaws, is superior in almost all the ways that matter. It feels like a seamless *interface*, not a gadget. < 1260832444 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, Android cannot compare. < 1260832482 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that I find the App Store policies abhorrent to the highest degree. < 1260832502 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPhone is just so much better it cancels out. < 1260832515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds the very concept of not being allowed to uses non-App Store apps abhorrent < 1260832518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*use < 1260832530 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jailbreak it, then. But I < 1260832533 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : erm < 1260832559 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm serious: the iPhone is in an astronomically different league. < 1260832648 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, do you know anything about Word's autorecovery features? < 1260832655 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like someone is speaking from inside a Reality Distortion Field < 1260832674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<lament> quantumEd: it could possibly depend on whether individual cells are bounded or not < 1260832692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has too, a balanced bf program can obviously use only a fixed number of cells < 1260832696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to < 1260832707 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balanced ? < 1260832726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq's BFM seems relevant, it does things balanced unless you force it not to < 1260832747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: equal number of >< in all loops, what you said < 1260832771 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260832776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*equivalent to what you said < 1260832822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i recall pikhq had quite a number of macros for doing things balancedly, so he may practically have proved it already < 1260832924 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260832974 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260832979 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.73.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260833052 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Bandy about distortion fields all you like: the iPhone's interface really is that much more crisp—and believe me, I wish it weren't so due to the App Store mess. < 1260833068 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is crispiness really that important? < 1260833079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, with potato chips, ok >.> < 1260833110 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: For a handheld device that must minimise fiddliness: it is everything. < 1260833115 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that the bitterness of limited functionality lingers on after the sweetness of user interface is forgotten < 1260833161 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: What limited functionality?—are you disparaging the extreme interface simplicity? < 1260833169 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, I find plan 9 to have an acceptable user interface and most people think using it is like being dragged pantsless across across a gravel pit < 1260833180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i think you just summed up humanity there ;D < 1260833232 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: well, I'm a pretty hardcore freedom-to-use-as-you-wish guy, so any device I'm not root on seems to be limited functionality to me - and I wasn't really taking sides on behalf of Android, since it is 'more open' not 'open' < 1260833240 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, changing the line in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf worked to display the wired network logo < 1260833257 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no love for the wireless though < 1260833261 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: So an ideological objection. I agree, but: < 1260833262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, in what way in Android not open? < 1260833269 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jailbreaking; < 1260833273 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you aren't root on the device without jailbreaking it < 1260833278 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so good it cancels out. < 1260833294 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Included apps aren't open, f.ex. < 1260833296 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does jailbreaking work, exactly? < 1260833306 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be less vague. < 1260833312 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: its usually based on a privilege escalation exploit against the OS kernel < 1260833326 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You plug in your phone, run a program on your computer: < 1260833332 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fizz bing pang < 1260833336 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Broken. < 1260833384 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reversible by resetting the phone's OS. < 1260833398 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google is actually amazingly sharp at the 'its open but its not game' - youtube was telling me to download google chrome for linux - but its license agreement forbids me to copy, reverse engineer, try to access the source code... < 1260833415 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Chromium is open < 1260833425 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: but the chrome browser they wanted me to download was NOT < 1260833431 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome = Chromium + branding. < 1260833432 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand the scenario exactly < 1260833440 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Firefox is the same. M < 1260833452 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Chrome = Chromium + branding + RLZ < 1260833458 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody else can build and distribute Firefox. < 1260833463 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it is not the same, for using firefox I did not have to agree to the same restrictive licensing terms as chrome asked me to < 1260833476 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They must use different branding. < 1260833491 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trust me, the chrome download license agreement is a hell of a lot different than mozilla license crap, which is still annoying, im an ICEWEASEL user < 1260833500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W < 1260833526 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonderful, zealotry (ideology without relevant effect). < 1260833543 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not zealotry, its doing what the lawyers said they had to < 1260833564 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fight tha powah. < 1260833566 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if debian wanted to be able to patch firefox independently of mozilla and distribute that, they didnt have the legal choice to call it firefox < 1260833585 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I fail to see any zealotry whatsoever < 1260833591 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not referencing that. < 1260833616 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i dereferenced the pointer wrong, fix the stack < 1260833639 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, too much typing effort for iPhone usage. One thing no phone is good at is long typing. < 1260833657 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me what *zealotry == < 1260833673 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^^ < 1260833862 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, let's just abolish copyright. There, debate ended with my own extremist position. < 1260833874 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im fine with that solution < 1260833882 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt seem extremist to me < 1260833894 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also patents, EULAs. < 1260833942 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, i think the overall consequences of that would actually be stimulative to the economy, despite a lot of short term disruption < 1260833987 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOAH! < 1260833991 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suddenly, it all works < 1260833999 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOOM < 1260834008 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I like the idea of abolishing EULAs. < 1260834011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: oh no, we're doomed! < 1260834018 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after changing the line in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf (may or may not have made a difference)... < 1260834021 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, for mechanical processes and inventions, there is an argument that patents actually *encourage* sharing of information, because without patents, there is a very high incentive to keep inventions secret and simply use them for competitive advantage < 1260834023 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magic command is: sudo iw dev wlan0 scan < 1260834036 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suddenly, I can see all these networks < 1260834042 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: They are already legally dubious. < 1260834058 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries going wireless-only < 1260834061 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to take some sort of platonic rationality-assuming mathematical perspectives, having EULAs is equivalent to not having EULAs, because companies can just make you sign a contract before ever handing over the software. < 1260834065 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just upheld in the apple/psystart case though < 1260834071 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/s// < 1260834101 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1260834114 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice, of course, people are more likely to buy software and then sign a EULA for the software they've already paid for than sign a contract and then have access to the software. < 1260834116 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: correct, one of the big problems with totally abolishing IP law is that there would be a number of very perverse consequences, such as what you just mentioned and the decision to 'hoard' inventions rather than publishing them < 1260834116 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that was easy < 1260834144 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if only / wasn't on a HD that used external power, I might be aple to actually take this laptop to places < 1260834150 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*able < 1260834153 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Here, using my estimation of your economic beliefs to make you oppose copyright. < 1260834162 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Let me. < 1260834163 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoarding inventions is such a cute idea. < 1260834165 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the battery management was a bit better I supposed < 1260834168 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*suppose < 1260834188 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point of patents was to stop trade secrets < 1260834243 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Copyright = government granted monopoly on the copying of pieces of information, which cannot be created or destroed per se. < 1260834247 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intellectual property law with sane boundaries and time limits was intended to serve as an incentive on *behalf* of the open publication of information < 1260834257 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*destroyed < 1260834268 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "per se", do you mean "by itself"? < 1260834271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is in a patent < 1260834276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, use a different phrase, because that's what "per se" means. < 1260834299 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4961476/description.html < 1260834299 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Oh, shut up, prescriptivist. < 1260834338 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell what you mean by "per se". < 1260834370 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing, really. You can't create or destroy abstract information. It's not physical. < 1260834381 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260834399 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect right now if we elimated all copy protection for software, for instance, the effect would be to make a lot of current proprietary software distributors to switch over to an entirely remote-access client/server model where you pay for access time and you never get a copy of the software on your machine even as a binary < 1260834412 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how you estimate my economic beliefs. < 1260834422 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: oh how very web-2.0 < 1260834430 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yudkowsky's. < 1260834442 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how anyone estimates Yudkowsky's economic beliefs. < 1260834446 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: i think you mean how very 60s timesharing ;) < 1260834471 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar to Hanson's but less... Prediction Market. < 1260834485 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y dem capitalise iPhone? < 1260834488 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: webmail? google docs? < 1260834503 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260834531 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: So, completely free capitalist Market. < 1260834557 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Robin Hanson is an anarcho-capitalist. < 1260834569 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in many ways, he is. < 1260834583 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he's a futarchist. Stupid idea btw. M < 1260834590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too. < 1260834625 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: yeah im aware that business model is already in effect and never went away after its initial appearance decades ago, its the oldest new thing in history - and google's understanding of the gpl2 loophole where they can create as many derivative works as they want and make them available on network, not distribute them, is brilliant. < 1260834626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anarchocapitalism is silly. < 1260834653 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you enforce the monopoly on access to property? < 1260834663 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the backbone of capitalism. < 1260834720 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think calling it an artificial monopoly on copying information doesn't really help me understand anything. < 1260834738 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all anarchism is based on the idea that people choose to cooperate voluntarily - and follow agreed upon rules without the use of force, in general. this is widely regarded as unrealistic. < 1260834750 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You oppose government monopolies. Yes? < 1260834755 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: Incorrect. < 1260834788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Removing monopolies results in a price that is, in some sense, fair. < 1260834804 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anarchism's safety is in dissociation by small communities. < 1260834829 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that can't retrieve property. < 1260834840 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not wihout coersion. < 1260834843 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without < 1260834849 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets not define anarchism, it reminds me of the talk page for the wikipedia anarchism article which is one of the most verbose and long running pointless arguments i have ever seen < 1260834869 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Existence without state. < 1260834882 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monopolies make the price move in a certain direction away from "fairness". < 1260835024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., without community sanctioned coersion. < 1260835024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka violence) < 1260835024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I am not an anarchist. < 1260835081 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talk, you people! < 1260835081 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boring ^ < 1260835124 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835129 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835135 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835135 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835135 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835135 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835136 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835136 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835136 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835208 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835208 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835410 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260835411 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260835411 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282482.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :quantumEd!n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-83-241.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@83.168.206.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835411 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260835412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mentions patent law when ehird isn't looking < 1260835412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ehird hates patent law because he can't wrap his head around monopolies having any benefit < 1260836039 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed < 1260836181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like monopolies would not survive without patent laws < 1260838868 0 :oerjan_!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260838924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260838940 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oerjan < 1260839625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Sure they would. < 1260839683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839683 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839683 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839684 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839685 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839685 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839686 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839687 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260839902 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1260840091 0 :jpc!n=jw@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260840767 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260840767 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841273 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841273 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841273 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@83.168.206.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841273 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841273 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841273 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841835 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260841835 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260841836 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260841837 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260841837 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260841837 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260841888 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841888 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841888 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@83.168.206.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841888 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841888 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841888 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260841949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260841951 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260842048 0 :coppro!n=coppro@d75-159-19-254.abhsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260842233 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260842233 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260842235 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260842235 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260842235 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260842452 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260842452 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260842452 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260842452 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260842452 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260842452 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN 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:Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843011 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843032 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :jpc!n=jw@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282482.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-83-241.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843032 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843229 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260843556 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260843742 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260843742 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844020 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844020 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844021 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :Rembane!n=rembane@83.168.206.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision < 1260844022 0 :coppro!n=coppro@d75-159-19-254.abhsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :jpc!n=jw@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282482.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-83-241.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844022 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844022 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844072 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844123 0 :Deewiant_!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844129 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ghosted client < 1260844137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260844474 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844474 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844474 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844474 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844474 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844475 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260844697 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844697 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844697 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844697 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844697 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844697 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260844842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can now load ELF binaries on Mac OS X. < 1260844845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take that, Apple! < 1260844869 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260844946 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845419 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845419 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845419 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845419 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845419 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845420 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845420 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260845512 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845512 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845512 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845512 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845512 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845512 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845671 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260845732 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260845732 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846022 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846022 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846027 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846027 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :Deewiant_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260846197 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282482.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846197 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846205 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846205 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846210 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@130.233.228.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260846323 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260846733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260847056 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847056 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847056 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847056 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847391 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260847392 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260847392 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@130.233.228.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282482.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847392 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260847467 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1260847618 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260848921 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260848922 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260848922 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260848922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260848922 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260849760 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260849760 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260849760 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260849760 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260849760 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260850090 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260850090 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260850090 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260850090 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260850090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260850381 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436554.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260850867 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260851213 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260851213 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260851213 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260851213 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260851213 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260852456 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260852457 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260852457 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260852457 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260852457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260852936 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260852936 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260852936 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260852936 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260852936 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853471 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853471 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853471 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853491 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853510 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853510 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853510 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853510 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853510 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853845 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853846 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853846 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853846 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853846 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260853846 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436554.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@130.233.228.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260853846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1260853846 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260854688 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260855046 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855378 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855378 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855378 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855387 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855387 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855419 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855419 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855788 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855788 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855788 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855788 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260855840 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :lifthrasiir!i=g09hlDKQ@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260855840 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260856834 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260856834 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260856834 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260856834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260856834 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260857085 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260857085 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260857085 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260857085 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260857085 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260857492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260859022 0 :asiekierka3!i=asiekier@095160058069.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260859022 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260859074 0 :Halph!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260859091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260859095 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1260859183 0 :lifthras1ir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260859213 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260859379 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lifthrasiir < 1260859539 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260859921 0 :asiekierka3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260860700 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260861020 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-47.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260861276 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1260861558 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]" < 1260861867 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260862130 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260863999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260864000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260864876 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-47.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260865008 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260866937 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260869297 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260872122 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260876541 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260877315 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260879130 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260880484 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260880484 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260880484 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260880484 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260880906 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260880906 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260880906 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260880906 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260881844 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882210 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882223 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882223 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882223 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882241 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882575 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882695 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260882696 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882696 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260882743 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260883299 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260883299 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260883299 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260883300 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260883366 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260883366 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260883366 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260883366 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260883883 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260883892 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260885343 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260885351 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260887201 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260888733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260890476 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260890895 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890895 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890896 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890897 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260890897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891078 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891078 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891110 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891110 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891110 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891110 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891110 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891111 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891111 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891111 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891111 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260891411 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260891411 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892289 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892289 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892289 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892290 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892290 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892290 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892290 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892290 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892291 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260892712 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@d83-177-15-247.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260892901 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260893323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, < 1260893325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> <Gregor> I can now load ELF binaries on Mac OS X. < 1260893327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> <Gregor> Take that, Apple! < 1260893329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> how? < 1260893527 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893527 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893527 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893527 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893527 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893528 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893529 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260893635 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260894196 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260896501 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260896502 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260896503 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260896547 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260896549 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260896684 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If FreeNode would stay alive for more than ten secodns, I'd tell you :P < 1260897030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/gelfloader/ < 1260897035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you are on the wrong side of the split < 1260897051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, try connecting to orwell.freenode.net < 1260897055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works like a charm < 1260897101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, however we seem to be on the same side now < 1260897104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully < 1260897110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, also I read it was due to DDOS < 1260897113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDoS* < 1260897117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Schweet. < 1260897126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, which part? < 1260897135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that url → 404 < 1260897151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Found < 1260897151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The requested URL /projects/gelfloader/ was not found on this server. < 1260897151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apache/2.2.14 (Debian) Server at codu.org Port 80 < 1260897159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apache fail or something < 1260897163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to tired to aruge about that < 1260897166 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/ < 1260897237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, invalid cert for the hg browser < 1260897239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1260897259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh btw, does it support dynamic linking? Or just static? < 1260897293 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, dynamic linking. And no, the cert isn't invalid. < 1260897301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well. self signed then < 1260897302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1260897309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not self-signed. < 1260897317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the error again < 1260897324 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a perfectly valid cert I updated like two months ago, you must not have the CA. < 1260897338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what CA? < 1260897342 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897343 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897343 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897343 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897343 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897344 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897344 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897345 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897345 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260897346 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :StartCom < 1260897364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, never heard of it < 1260897371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's free :P < 1260897379 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, it's the /only/ free one as far as I can tell. < 1260897388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, cacert < 1260897392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1260897417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I forget what issue I had with CAcert though ... < 1260897431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, does gelfload support rpath? < 1260897441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other non-basic features? < 1260897455 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but it would be trivial to add rpath. It doesn't support rpath because rpath is suck :P < 1260897486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, why is rpath suck? I found it useful for ~/local/foo stuff when I didn't want to clutter LD_LIBRARY_PATH for most apps < 1260897496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, trying out a newer gcc version < 1260897508 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More to the point, I wrote gelfloader for Windows originally and I'm not sure how to interpret a :-separated rpath when : is quite meaningful on the host OS. < 1260897703 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why it is that rpath is a "non-basic" feature, when there are so many more advanced features of ELF :P < 1260897729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well it was the first I thought of < 1260897735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about gnu style hash? < 1260897763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, my system binaries seems to have .gnu.hash but no .hash sections for example < 1260897774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, does it work on linux? < 1260897786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for playing around with it obviously) < 1260897825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gack. No, it uses .hash, not .gnu.hash. It does work on Linux but can't load native Linux ELF files as they generally depend on /lib/ld-linux[-x86_64].so which refuses to be loaded like a normal ELF file. < 1260897850 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is to say, they actually use symbols from their interpreter. < 1260897853 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(via libc) < 1260897869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how do you mean < 1260897876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also can gelfload load itself? < 1260897893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and what about freebsd) < 1260897896 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897896 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260897927 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /lib/ld-linux, the dynamic loader, doesn't like to be loaded like a normal ELF file for reasons I haven't yet figured out. I haven't prioritized it because as it turns out loading ELF files on Linux is kinda old hat :P < 1260897976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, gelfload cannot generally load itself, as it's only capable of loading anything at runtime because it's put itself into a position in memory not "likely" to be required by a non-PIC ELF file. < 1260897992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well yes, still useful to test on. At least I always found debugging easier on linux than windows. < 1260897996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never used os x much < 1260898003 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can load ELF files made for it. < 1260898007 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do all my testing on Linux. < 1260898010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260898014 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, except for OS testing :P < 1260898025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, virtualbox? < 1260898037 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MacBook :P < 1260898039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, can it load gcc? < 1260898051 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If gcc was compiled for it, I'm sure it could load GCC. < 1260898052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, macbook for os x sure. but what about windows+ < 1260898069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, okay. What about glibc? < 1260898075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does some crazy things iirc < 1260898085 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glibc was the problem I was JUST talking about :P < 1260898091 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /lib/ld-linux being part of glibc < 1260898118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well you were talking about ld.so yes which is a part. But even if ld.so didn't work, libc.so.6 (or whatever) and libm could work < 1260898119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1260898120 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point I had access to a Windows system, at which point I originally wrote it and also wrote winelf (the library environment for ELF files on Windows). Now I don't have Windows anymore :P < 1260898134 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: libc and libm depend on ld-linux < 1260898137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260898142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, pthreads? < 1260898152 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needs libc, and so ld-linux < 1260898160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, not freebsd pthreads < 1260898167 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't tried on FreeBSD :P < 1260898170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though iirc that is a different libc or such there) < 1260898171 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yet) < 1260898177 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's FreeBSD libc. < 1260898184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what libc do you use for testing stuff then < 1260898189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uclibc? < 1260898193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Changing server" < 1260898203 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260898206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gelfload is capable of "virtual" libraries that actually just cause the loader itself to dlopen a host library. < 1260898225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh? < 1260898227 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, gelfload binaries are linked against e.g. libhost_libc.so.6, rather than libc.so.6 < 1260898247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1260898253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that won't work on windows iirc < 1260898260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Windows it uses LoadLibrary < 1260898263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it link statically to libc there < 1260898266 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And e.g. libhost_msvcrt.dll < 1260898267 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1260898269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the compiler does < 1260898271 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msvcrt.dll = libc < 1260898272 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1260898277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1260898287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well what about mingw < 1260898291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it use msvcrt.dll? < 1260898295 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260898300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, borland c++? < 1260898309 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260898313 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe has it's own C runtime, Idonno *shrugs* < 1260898316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260898322 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not though. < 1260898353 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compelling reason to link against msvcrt.dll from nine years ago was that the NT family and 9x family use different (undocumented) syscall styles, so you need to use a MS-provided .dll to reliably do syscalls. < 1260898378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, wasn't that user32.dll? < 1260898383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or kernel32.dll iirc < 1260898385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1260898395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then those called ntdll.dll internally or such < 1260898411 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, you're right, user32 and kernel32 are those (which of course winelf has to link against too :P ) < 1260898415 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msvcrt just uses though. < 1260898417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*those < 1260898417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what "advanced" features are missing btw? < 1260898458 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't support certain relocations I haven't come across in the wild, it doesn't support special sections e.g. RPATH, and anything else I've just plain missed :P < 1260898461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and what linker do you use to target gelfload? < 1260898473 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gelfload is just a normal host binary. < 1260898486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about setting mprotect() for NX and such based on relevant sections? < 1260898506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc there is some way you say that in the elf headers or some elf section or such < 1260898509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may misremember < 1260898513 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It mmaps with the relevant permissions. < 1260898528 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't recall whether the equivalent Windows call handles the permissions properly or not) < 1260898551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is to say, if the host system's mmap supports making segments non-executable, then they'll be non-executable. < 1260898561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, PT_GNU_RELRO? < 1260898572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a GNU feature, I don't support it. < 1260898609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of those gnu features are useful < 1260898641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course they are, it's GNU. < 1260898671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, not all gnu extensions are useful < 1260898695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what arches do you support? < 1260898704 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presently just x86 and x86_64. < 1260898709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I assume you will need some target specific asm < 1260898715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to jump to the program for example < 1260898722 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only bit of ASM it uses. < 1260898732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest is all C. But is still specialized for relocation of course. < 1260898743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what does it do on unknown sections and such < 1260898749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, split debug info stuff < 1260898761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[68] .gnu_debuglink PROGBITS 0000000000000000 001506d9 00000018 0 0 0 1 < 1260898763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignores unknown sections, complains about unknown relocations. < 1260898767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it is (from my glibc) < 1260898793 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are always sections that the dynamic linker doesn't need to care about *shrugs* < 1260898813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, debug info for example < 1260898843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, anyway what functions in ld.so does glibc use? If it is a few simple ones it would be trivial to implement no? < 1260899028 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899030 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899030 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899030 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899030 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899030 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899043 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899043 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899044 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899044 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899044 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899140 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899257 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899257 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899257 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899257 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899258 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899347 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899348 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899348 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899348 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260899348 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260899610 0 :Gregor!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-3.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899678 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899702 0 :AnMaster_!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899702 0 :ineiros_!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899709 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899710 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1260899718 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision) < 1260899718 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899718 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899718 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899723 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899723 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899723 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899723 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899723 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899723 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899723 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899724 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899724 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260899725 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899725 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: < 1260899729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Gregor> There are always sections that the dynamic linker doesn't need to care about *shrugs* < 1260899731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> well yes, debug info for example < 1260899732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> Gregor, anyway what functions in ld.so does glibc use? If it is a few simple ones it would be trivial to implement no? < 1260899734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> oh and do you happen to know what the .jcr section is? < 1260899736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I lost connection < 1260899737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh and another question: do you suppport PIE < 1260899741 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899741 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260899748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1260899779 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what ld.so does that it doesn't like. Like I said, I haven't prioritized that. Yes, PIEs are supported. It would be tricky /not/ to support them :P < 1260899797 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK, not that tricky, but it would be totally arbitrary. < 1260900067 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260900889 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260901440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901441 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901441 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901442 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901442 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901442 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901442 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901443 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901448 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901448 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901454 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901466 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260901466 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902068 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :ineiros_!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-3.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902068 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902085 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902085 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902085 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902089 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902089 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902092 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902093 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902093 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902098 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902099 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902099 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902099 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902099 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902099 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902104 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902104 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902104 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902105 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1260902109 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902109 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902379 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260902763 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902763 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902763 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902957 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902957 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902958 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902958 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902958 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902959 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902959 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902959 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260902960 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260903011 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1260903218 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903218 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hello < 1260903290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1260903447 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903447 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260903447 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904238 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904238 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904238 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904335 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904335 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904335 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904335 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904336 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904336 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904337 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904337 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904337 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904676 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904676 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904733 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904733 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904733 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904733 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904733 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904734 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904735 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904735 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904735 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260904880 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904880 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904880 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-75-220.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260904909 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260905257 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-156-196-171.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260905332 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260905831 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905831 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905831 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905831 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905831 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905832 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905833 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905833 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905833 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260905833 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260906137 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906137 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260906704 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260906716 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260907389 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260907671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Gregor> Well, OK, not that tricky, but it would be totally arbitrary. <-- ah, well I never worked at that low level so I have no clue. < 1260907694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIEs are just ELF files that are labeled as shared objects but have an entry point. < 1260907705 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, and are relocatable, obviously :P < 1260907706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, does it support Deewiant's dobela interpreter? < 1260907714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that is written in asm with a custom file header and such < 1260907726 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's basically ELF, then maybe? :P < 1260907727 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260907756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ever seen that page demonstrating a compact ELF program with part of the program inside the unused fields in the header? < 1260907763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1260907768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, think similar < 1260907774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if he used that trick < 1260907777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah similar < 1260907781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and self modifying < 1260907784 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it similar :-P < 1260907792 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has perfectly correct ELF headers, no tricks < 1260907794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/dobelx64/index.html < 1260907802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm maybe I misremember < 1260907805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that link fails to load < 1260907811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is from the esolang wiki < 1260907811 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't have any issues with things like the compact ELF program, self modifying should be fine so long as it doesn't count on the ELF loader caring. < 1260907813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now it timed out < 1260907820 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260907820 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260907836 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that's strange < 1260907839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yay for sending incorrect mime type of http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/files/dobelx64/dobelx64-src.tbz2 < 1260907850 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, iki says they've had troubles lately < 1260907853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unable to get it to auto open in ark < 1260907857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it works now < 1260907860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tkk.fi, not deewiant.fi < 1260907865 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't help it < 1260907880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh? did I claim it was deewiant.fi? < 1260907888 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260907888 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260907890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also you can try .tar.bz2 and see if it helps < 1260907894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1260907904 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point was that I can't do anything about it < 1260907917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, .tgz gets correct mime type < 1260907919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's no point in complaining to me, complain to the IT staff :-P < 1260907923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes you could send it as .tgz < 1260907927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you do for the binary < 1260907933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF binary (x86–64): < 1260907933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.tgz, 3.8 KiB < 1260907933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source: < 1260907933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.tbz2, 13.1 KiB < 1260907942 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I select gzip/bzip2 based on which takes less space < 1260907952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if the difference is on the order of bytes, gzip < 1260907960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not tar.lzma? < 1260907969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because lzma is a lot less standard than gzip/bzip2 < 1260907983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you use 7zip, which iirc uses lzma internally < 1260907997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html <-- no gz or bz2 there < 1260908001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just zip and 7zip < 1260908005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7z* < 1260908013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, zip. Which is even more widespread than gzip/bzip2 < 1260908033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you use advdef -z4 on your *.gz? < 1260908039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can sometimes save a few percent < 1260908041 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that? :-P < 1260908053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, same package as advpng: advancecomp < 1260908096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, compared to gzip --best or whatever it is, advdef can usually save a few percent < 1260908113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better packing algorithm < 1260908131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use 7-zip to generate all the archives < 1260908133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, still deflate/gzip but better compressed) < 1260908136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1260908145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, advdef can save a bit on that too in some cases < 1260908145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, for tarred stuff I probably don't < 1260908149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less often but still < 1260908159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, dobelx64 is the only tarred stuff IIRC < 1260908171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and iirc advdef/advzip/advpng *uses* 7zip algorithms < 1260908175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I may misremember that < 1260908192 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1260908210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, for png it generally goes: optipng -i0 -o7 foo.png && advpng -z4 foo.png && advdef -z4 foo.png < 1260908237 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :212.16.100.1 seems to be a good replacement for iki.fi right now, not sure why the nameservers prefer the .2 which is down < 1260908245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for some reason advdef manages slightly better, but advpng does some extra stuff like throwing away pointless sections in the file) < 1260908266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ host iki.fi < 1260908266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iki.fi has address 212.16.100.1 < 1260908266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iki.fi has address 212.16.100.2 < 1260908266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iki.fi mail is handled by 10 mail2.iki.fi. < 1260908266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iki.fi mail is handled by 10 mail.iki.fi. < 1260908267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I get < 1260908304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite, but wget on iki.fi/deewiant shows that it goes to the .2 < 1260908312 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's iki.fi that have it wrong < 1260908313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that a pax or a tar? < 1260908323 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which? < 1260908331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the source for dobelx64 < 1260908344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ark shows a file called pax_global_header in it < 1260908363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is 52 bytes large < 1260908372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's made with GNU tar < 1260908399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1260908439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; 10 is taken by an instruction value, don't use it < 1260908439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEWLINE = 255 < 1260908440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1260908459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does that require a 255 byte in the input file? < 1260908464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for newline < 1260908474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think? < 1260908479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "yes" < 1260908489 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sure you can do something about it; just add a .htaccess file to fix it. (Okay, so I don't know whether that works on users.tkk.fi actually; I've done that on www.cs.hut.fi, though.) < 1260908519 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Woot, they allow users to have their own .htaccess? < 1260908529 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Like I said, maybe not at users. < 1260908542 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could move it over to cs I suppose :-P < 1260908556 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's the quota there < 1260908585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it has one; I mean, there's only accounts for staff. (I have no clue about Niksula.) < 1260908614 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1260908644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which file contains the elf header? < 1260908655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tkk.fi/WWW/mime_types.html#htaccess presumably allowed < 1260908687 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can't remember < 1260908701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kosh t 57 % cat > .htaccess < 1260908701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AddType application/x-no-such-application funky < 1260908701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kosh t 58 % cat > t.funky < 1260908701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funky! < 1260908701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ wget http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/t/t.funky < 1260908701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Length: 7 [application/x-no-such-application] < 1260908707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it seems to work for users.tkk.fi too. < 1260908719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it < 1260908737 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: In a subdirectory too? Nice < 1260908746 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So what's the correct MIME type < 1260908768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try file -i on the fil < 1260908770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file* < 1260908776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see if it says anything useful at all < 1260908798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I *think* it is application/x-bzip2 < 1260908806 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kewl beans < 1260908806 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1260908828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So, assuming it worked, it should work now. < 1260908829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :application/x-gtar gtar taz tgz < 1260908830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260908833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's "x-", so it can't be anything too official. < 1260908851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it did after clearing cache < 1260908877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway you can limit in apache what .htaccess can change < 1260908886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably they made it rather limited < 1260908892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mime type only, no scripts and such < 1260908900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the passwd thing too < 1260908966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, broken link on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/misc-projects.html < 1260908968 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's always application/octet-stream, which is also a viable option for binary files that do not have an IANA-registered MIME type. It's better than text/plain, in any case. < 1260908977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, (the bit "this programming exercise") < 1260908987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You've reported that one before < 1260908995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm I forgot that < 1260909025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> There's always application/octet-stream, which is also a viable option for binary files that do not have an IANA-registered MIME type. It's better than text/plain, in any case. <-- it was what it was before, causing it not to open in the ark kparts < 1260909041 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://users.tkk.fi/t1061203/projektit/Adventure/kierros8_tehtava3.html would be the modern equivalent < 1260909043 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Speaking of mime types, and while you're "at it", the .7z files get text/plain too. < 1260909065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what should .7z have? < 1260909080 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made it octet-stream < 1260909084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260909101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone claims application/x-7z-compressed, but those are all a bit unofficial. < 1260909104 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what file -i said < 1260909114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nice, now it opens with khexedit kparts rather than kwrite kparts < 1260909116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia claims that too < 1260909116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260909126 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, "someone" in this case *was* the Wikipedia "7z" article in an unsourced statement. < 1260909131 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260909132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's that < 1260909139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for fun < 1260909156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still hex editor < 1260909163 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :application/x-x-extra-x-7z-compressed < 1260909172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x-xxx < 1260909199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260909234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is fasm intel style or AT&T style? < 1260909239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it comes to order of arguments < 1260909240 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel < 1260909251 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't have it any other way :-P < 1260909252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that explains why it makes no sense < 1260909278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why do you dislike AT&T style so? < 1260909292 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How *coincidental*; there's a Debian bug report from 28 Oct 2009 for the "file" package about the .7z mime type; it's been fixed at 05 Dec (ten days ago) in file 5.03-4 to be that application/x-7z-compressed. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=552742 < 1260909315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sigils, postfixes, crazy indexing syntax < 1260909329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you mean crazy indexing syntax? < 1260909349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's not [eax+4] < 1260909358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is that in AT&T < 1260909363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has problems reading Intel < 1260909366 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4(%eax) < 1260909369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1260909373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how is that crazy? < 1260909400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also [eax+4*ebx+8] is 8(%eax,%ebx,4) -- every *normal* person can read the first one easier. :p < 1260909413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Intel syntax, all you need to know is that [] means dereferencing and the plus and multiplication symbols < 1260909414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it all depends which one you are used to < 1260909429 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is to say, if you're a normal person all you need to know is that [] means dereferencing < 1260909446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no, most normal persons doesn't need to know asm at all < 1260909465 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most normal persons don't need to know any programming language. < 1260909474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I was getting to that < 1260909475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1260909475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Assuming, of course, a need to know asm. < 1260909487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"most people wouldn't understand what dereferencing meant" < 1260909488 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most normal persons don't need to know any of dem dere "words" or "letters". < 1260909492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was what I was going to say < 1260909516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, in west Europe I think illiteracy(sp?) isn't that high < 1260909521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :western* < 1260909527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You wouldn't need to know it in exactly those words :-P < 1260909544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm in the US. Functional illiteracy is very prevalent. < 1260909565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(total illiteracy, not so much...) < 1260909585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, seeing the problems some people had with simple pointer arithmetic in C at university recently I suspect there is no easy way to explain it for some < 1260909599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, functional illiteracy meaning? < 1260909600 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1260909626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1260909636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see what is wrong with 8(%eax,%ebx,4) < 1260909637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They are *capable* of reading to some extent, but haven't actually read since high school or college. < 1260909657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Wrong definition. < 1260909664 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: One has to know what each argument means in order to know what the whole thing means < 1260909671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and what postfix notation were you referring to exactly. It seems a strange way to describe that source comes before target in stuff like mov %eax,%edx < 1260909674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1260909675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are capable of reading, but only barely. < 1260909676 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can recognize that as a memory access but no further < 1260909693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I meant postfixes on instructions; movl, movw etc. < 1260909694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1260909709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay, it seems like it could try to guess it < 1260909709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lack of reading capability functions as a serious impediment. < 1260909719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with either there < 1260909737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the sigils and the proper argument order those are what make me love AT&T asm < 1260909755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could live with either indexing syntax < 1260909783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my view on indexing syntax is that 4(%eax) is not natural < 1260909795 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I could live with AT&T < 1260909798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But fortunately I can choose not to < 1260909857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I think it is the same as writing 4[myarray] in C basically. < 1260909860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfectly fine < 1260909882 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I consider that unnatural too < 1260909895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and something that should be reserved for IOCCC < 1260909898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that you don't write myindex[myarray,myotherindex,myscale] < 1260909906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I would hope the majority of C programmers would consider "4[myarray]" unnatural too. < 1260909918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if %eax(4) is valid, pretty sure it isn't. But maybe it should be. < 1260909926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you haven't read enough IOCCC then < 1260909936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IOCCC is not trying to be natural, you know. < 1260909940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IOCCC is not natural < 1260909941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well of course < 1260909959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, except it underflowed and came out on the other side < 1260909966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it used unsigned short) < 1260909973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in fact it is very natural < 1260909981 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1260910034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it goes like: segment:offset(base,index,scale) iirc < 1260910039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where segment: is optional < 1260910049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and offset is signed < 1260910062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also index and scale are optional < 1260910073 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Offset is also optional. < 1260910075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thankfully. < 1260910084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah yes, forgot to mention that < 1260910084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I for one would feel really stupid writing 0(%eax) < 1260910099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it would be like eax[0] < 1260910112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no < 1260910120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be like *(eax)[0] < 1260910121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1260910128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that C syntax was wrong < 1260910133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*eax)[0] of course < 1260910144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I would think it'd be like you couldn't write "*eax", you would have to write "*(eax+0)" instead. < 1260910162 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[eax+0+0*ecx] < 1260910173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, rather similar to people writing char mybuffer[5+1]; to remember the null byte < 1260910175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly IMO < 1260910205 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To quote the comp.lang.c faq on the commutativity of subscripting: "unsuspected commutativity is often mentioned in C texts as if it were something to be proud of, but it finds no useful application outside of the Obfuscated C Contest (see question 20.36)." < 1260910237 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260910242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about %gs:-10(%ebp,%eax,4) < 1260910250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it < 1260910260 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260910260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is it in confusing intel syntax < 1260910272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about segment addressing < 1260910275 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260910282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah < 1260910288 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without that, [ebp - 10 + eax*4] I guess < 1260910295 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be [gs:ebp+4*eax-10], I think. < 1260910313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm sounds plausible < 1260910356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is movl $10, (%eax) < 1260910361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in intel syntax < 1260910365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov [eax], 10. < 1260910370 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov dword [eax], 10 < 1260910376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1260910378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what if I wanted to move a byte then < 1260910381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1260910385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correction < 1260910389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, you have a longer suffix there < 1260910390 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov dword ptr [eax], 10 < 1260910404 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Quite, but I know that "mov" is the instruction < 1260910418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With AT&T I can't be sure what's part of the suffix and what isn't < 1260910420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with the indirect-o-tron there you need to specify the operand size. But you only need to specify it at all when it's not deducible from the register. < 1260910431 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the various Forths do for intel ASM < 1260910436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and I know that mov[bwlq] is the instruction. < 1260910445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well q is only for x86_64 < 1260910446 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov [eax], dword 10 works in fasm as well, I think < 1260910454 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260910494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, instructions very it is meaningful to have different sizes, such as mov, generally takes [bwlq]. But say stuff like cpuid doesn't < 1260910495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I don't know all instructions by heart I'm glad to know that the first word of a line is the instruction name < 1260910496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or call < 1260910508 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen callq < 1260910529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't < 1260910531 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably calll exists then as well, etc. < 1260910533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where was it? < 1260910540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In code. < 1260910544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't memorize these things. < 1260910544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what code? < 1260910547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260910569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objdump -d /bin/ls | grep callq < 1260910570 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of results < 1260910594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay you are right < 1260910620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I mostly write gcc inline asm and read gcc output, AT&T is a lot more practical < 1260910644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use -masm=intel :-P < 1260910655 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also for dereferencing when it comes to branch ops, you have to use * for indirection instead of the "usual" ()s in AT&T. < 1260910671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1260910695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, fairly uncommon in inline asm though < 1260910711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Deewiant> I just use -masm=intel :-P <-- wouldn't that break inline asm in system headers? < 1260910732 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me < 1260910734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... Inline asm in system headers?!? < 1260910738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I murder you. < 1260910740 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't write GCC inline asm < 1260910744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant it for reading the output < 1260910750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, iirc htons() checks for gcc and then uses a bswap < 1260910753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on x86 < 1260910758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or something like that < 1260910761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe htonl < 1260910763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway < 1260910768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eeeeew. < 1260910778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it uses some bitwise magic as fallback < 1260910808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and stuff like fpu_control.h would need it < 1260910821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to Haskell, with its cross-compilation unit inlining < 1260910844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, duh it uses different variants for different systems < 1260910856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/bits/byteswap.h: __asm__ ("rorw $8, %w0" \ < 1260910860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few more lines < 1260910868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is collected in one place < 1260910878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Can't GCC generally optimize bit-twiddling down well? < 1260910880 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think -masm=intel affects the input anyway < 1260910886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well maybe it is a relic? < 1260910890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1260910899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need a directive in the asm to set it (".intel_syntax"?) < 1260910901 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<bits/byteswap.h> is a spectacularly messy "one place", though. < 1260910914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, better than spread out over everything < 1260910925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gc.h from boehm-gc contains some __asm__ < 1260910925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's glorious. < 1260910943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# if defined(__GNUC__) && !defined(__INTEL_COMPILER) < 1260910944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# define GC_reachable_here(ptr) \ < 1260910944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : __asm__ volatile(" " : : "X"(ptr) : "memory"); < 1260910944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# else < 1260910944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : GC_API void GC_noop1(GC_word x); < 1260910944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# define GC_reachable_here(ptr) GC_noop1((GC_word)(ptr)); < 1260910946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1260910948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1260910950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is quite nasty < 1260910950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably understandable. < 1260910958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes it is < 1260910962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is still hackish < 1260910963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as hell < 1260910972 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such is Boehm GC. < 1260910974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__asm__ volatile nice touch < 1260910988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# if __WORDSIZE == 64 || (defined __i486__ || defined __pentium__ || defined __pentiumpro__ || defined __pentium4__ || defined __k8__ || defined __athlon__ || defined __k6__ || defined __nocona__ || defined __core2__ || defined __geode__ || defined __amdfam10__) /* To swap the bytes in a word the i486 processors and up provide the `bswap opcode. -- */ < 1260910991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Yes, but it's glorious. <-- avoid math headers then < 1260911005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is split over multiple lines here < 1260911008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it more readable < 1260911012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I combined it for IRC. < 1260911026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it helps much. I mean, the readability is not the problem there. < 1260911085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about /usr/include/asm < 1260911096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/asm/byteorder.h: __asm__("bswap %0" : "=r" (x) : "0" (x)); < 1260911100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260911115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc those are kernel includes < 1260911116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1260911120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux-headers package or such < 1260911124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than libc < 1260911132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you will like /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h too < 1260911145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect you will like certain math includes < 1260911175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in fact /usr/include/tgmath.h is RIGHT up you <road type of preference> < 1260911199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static __inline__ __u64 ___arch__swab64(__u64 val) < 1260911201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm nice < 1260911205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three _ < 1260911206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1260911213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was from /usr/include/asm/byteorder.h < 1260911224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from fizzie: 0.90 second(s) < 1260911224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from fizzie: 1.42 second(s) < 1260911227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1260911230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Heh. < 1260911233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one ping sent < 1260911239 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260911263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slow pongs there < 1260911267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's again the bouncer with multiple clients connected to it. < 1260911270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260911284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, go look at /usr/include/tgmath.h < 1260911286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1260911289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will LOVE it < 1260911297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no asm < 1260911301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so great about tgmath? < 1260911309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the awesome macros < 1260911323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find any short enough to paste on irc sadly < 1260911328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh math.h is pretty fun too < 1260911359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does all the sin/sinl/sinf by including one internal header three times iirc < 1260911370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ones for double, once for long double and once for float < 1260911472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for everyone too lazy to read that file < 1260911474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<spam> < 1260911476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# define __TGMATH_UNARY_REAL_ONLY(Val, Fct) \ < 1260911476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (__extension__ ((sizeof (Val) == sizeof (double) \ < 1260911476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : || __builtin_classify_type (Val) != 8) \ < 1260911476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ? (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) Fct (Val) \ < 1260911476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : (sizeof (Val) == sizeof (float)) \ < 1260911477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ? (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) Fct##f (Val) \ < 1260911479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : (__tgmath_real_type (Val)) __tgml(Fct) (Val))) < 1260911481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :</spam> < 1260911484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the shorter examples < 1260911489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, nice eh < 1260911492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1260911524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have: < 1260911526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define atan2(Val1, Val2) __TGMATH_BINARY_REAL_ONLY (Val1, Val2, atan2) < 1260911529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1260911537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# define log10(Val) __TGMATH_UNARY_REAL_ONLY (Val, log10) < 1260911541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be better example < 1260911593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, fizzie: well? < 1260911598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ais523 too < 1260911599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1260911764 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260911823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1260911859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ais523, pikhq: stop being boring and reply :/ < 1260911893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prods Deewiant for good measure < 1260911895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? But boring is what I do best. < 1260911904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but... that's boring < 1260911909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Be more interesting so there's something worth replying to < 1260911924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I thought that macro was fairly interesting < 1260911930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least fairly horribly bad < 1260911944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's just a typical use of a gcc extension < 1260911948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like a typical few-liner macro to me :-P < 1260911956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is a twenty line one too < 1260911957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so < 1260911966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# define __TGMATH_BINARY_REAL_IMAG(Val1, Val2, Fct, Cfct) \ < 1260911970 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would probably look like a typical few-dozen-liner to me < 1260911971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't past the rest < 1260911989 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen C macros before and I don't really see anything particularly interesting here < 1260912022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a bit of an "the eyes glaze over" problem; it's just this mess of mess. < 1260912034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, http://sprunge.us/ZWiF < 1260912036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure? < 1260912056 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, a typically unreadable macro < 1260912086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing things that should be left to templates or a similar metaprogramming system < 1260912098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even a dissimilar one. < 1260912111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, lisp macros is the solution < 1260912120 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one solution. < 1260912173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about #include_next? < 1260912188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of it. < 1260912204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it allows system limits.h to include gcc limits.h < 1260912227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's the magic compared to #include < 1260912242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, looks at the next directory in the include path compared to current < 1260912251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't use a fixed path < 1260912261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/limits.h do: < 1260912263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# include_next <limits.h> < 1260912263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1260912302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, however, just in case, the compiler one do the same with the system one. And then they try to avoid looping each other by checking for it < 1260912405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh /usr/include/bits/nan.h is simple yet "wtf" < 1260912407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice < 1260912419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Looks like a typical usage of GCC extensions in the macro system. < 1260912419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (__extension__ \ < 1260912419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((union { unsigned __l __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__))); float __d; }) \ < 1260912419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { __l: 0x7fc00000UL }).__d) < 1260912424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone care to tell me what that means? < 1260912453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interesting part of the header is http://sprunge.us/hViC < 1260912478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Take the integer value 0x7fc00000 as a float. < 1260912485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's reinterpreting the hex value 7fc0_0000 as a float, presumably < 1260912490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the mode __SI__ bit about? < 1260912495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260912507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme check the GCC attributes page. < 1260912545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef unsigned int u_int8_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__QI__))); < 1260912545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef unsigned int u_int16_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__HI__))); < 1260912545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef unsigned int u_int32_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__))); < 1260912545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef unsigned int u_int64_t __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__DI__))); < 1260912557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah interesting < 1260912558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figure it out from there. < 1260912567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is easy < 1260912581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it defines size of type < 1260912584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a rather weird way < 1260912625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unsigned __attribute__ ((__mode__ (__SI__)))" is, of course, the full type. (freaking C typesystem) < 1260912626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This in effect lets you request an integer or floating point type according to its width." < 1260912636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260912717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how modes don't seem to be documented < 1260912724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260912781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__NTH (__signbit (double __x)) < 1260912781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1260912781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : __extension__ union { double __d; int __i[2]; } __u = { __d: __x }; < 1260912781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return __u.__i[1] < 0; < 1260912781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1260912785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is rather nasty < 1260912797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unportable to a system where int isn't half the width of double < 1260912804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from /usr/include/bits/mathinline.h < 1260912814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bits isn't meant to be portable < 1260912820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well true < 1260912840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why they need the __extension__ there < 1260912864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: They're sort-of documented in http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.3.1/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html < 1260912892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But apparently that list is gone from newer versions, because the base modes are now normal integer types, or some-such. < 1260912902 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great < 1260912907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the intuitive names, too < 1260912919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260912928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enum < 1260912928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1260912931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : FSETLOCKING_QUERY = 0, < 1260912931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FSETLOCKING_QUERY FSETLOCKING_QUERY < 1260912933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1260912937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every one is defined to itself < 1260912945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in the new version -- http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html -- that list has been replaced by the use of a vector_size (N) where N is size in bytes. < 1260912965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to come up with a halfway sensible explanation to use BOTH an enum and a #define < 1260912970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm unable to < 1260912995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess compatiblity, since that is the fallback reason for everything < 1260913001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, we should nuke the preprocessor. < 1260913003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define could be there so that you can preprocessor-ifdef against it; that's a common reason. < 1260913010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enum for any other enumy reason. < 1260913015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the enum happen to have a name? < 1260913017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, such as? < 1260913018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260913021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not. < 1260913026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not in that file at least < 1260913030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/include/stdio_ext.h < 1260913045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it auto-numbers the values. < 1260913053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1260913055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A rather minor thing. < 1260913058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that isn't a really good reason < 1260913143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, /usr/include/bits/statvfs.h has such an enum and doesn't auto number. < 1260913182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Definitions for the flag in `f_flag'. These definitions should be < 1260913183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : kept in sync with the definitions in <sys/mount.h>. */ < 1260913185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Gone for a while.) < 1260913192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm they never thought about using a common include I guess < 1260913844 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913844 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260913845 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@82.132.248.52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You there? < 1260913896 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh < 1260913900 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong side of a netsplit. < 1260913903 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :ineiros_!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-3.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913903 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260913970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Rpath on os x: don't worry. Everything is / based internally. Naming a file with / is replaced with :. < 1260913991 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So just seperate on : like normal. < 1260913997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referring to Windows. < 1260914019 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: is special on Windows?—isn't it illegal? < 1260914033 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c:\hewwo < 1260914043 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhh. < 1260914082 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simples! Letter at start then colon then backslash meanie no seperato! < 1260914111 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260914116 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically I think C:foo might be valid for some kinds of FS but meh. Allow forward slash also. < 1260914125 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since C:/ is quite common. < 1260914169 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: To add C: to the path: C:\:… < 1260914185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It at least used to be so that "x:foo" meant "foo in the drive-specific current directory on drive x:" -- I don't know anything about modern Windows path-handling though. < 1260914206 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::C\:\/:C:\\/:C:CC\:CCCC\\C/::::\\////C//C/C/C:\ < 1260914216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you see the issue at hand :P < 1260914247 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Does anyone do that. < 1260914264 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As ELF files aren't supported on Windows normally, no :P < 1260914269 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they do: :: escapes :P < 1260914271 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tadaaaa < 1260914283 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C::\poop:… < 1260914285 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"" is a valid path. < 1260914289 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also : can be used to specify additional streams of a file < 1260914302 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Problemo isnoto! < 1260914304 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::::: < 1260914320 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :De escapes to ::. < 1260914340 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260914446 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Have you actually run ELF programs on OS X? < 1260914460 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... yes. WTF did you think I was doing? < 1260914466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is up with ehirdiphone? < 1260914469 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260914469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260914470 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is talking funny < 1260914480 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, is it that far ahead < 1260914498 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260914508 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Tedious phonetyping inspires fun, ja? < 1260914540 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1260914557 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Technically you could use libraries other than what the library wants yeah? As substitutions < 1260914565 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dynamic < 1260914571 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's exactly what I do do. < 1260914590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Gregor: To add C: to the path: C:\:… <-- \ alone at the start of a path is valid < 1260914591 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence you can use a Mach-O libc in an ELF executable. < 1260914592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for network paths < 1260914594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like \\somecomputer\foo < 1260914596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1260914598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the details < 1260914600 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And—rewrite certain instructions at load time. < 1260914600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1260914604 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And? < 1260914622 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes? < 1260914635 0 :fizzien900!n=user@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260914637 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: BZZZZZT THE N900 MAKES ME SPEAK LIKE A RO-BOT. < 1260914645 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, ":" is valid as part of a filename on ext2 too, the only issue is that it's /common/ as part of a path on Windows, so stop getting in a hubbub :P < 1260914648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → even < 1260914664 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Certain instructions are always rewritten at load time. < 1260914672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzien900: The iPhone makes me speak like Steve Jobs. Did you ever meet Nokia's CEO? < 1260914697 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Say, syscalls. < 1260914700 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ergo. < 1260914717 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any idea what you're ergoing. < 1260914722 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux binaries … on OS X. < 1260914751 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that needs changing beyond ELF is the loaded libc and syscalls. < 1260914752 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: No. Just the NRC (Nokia Research Center) head honcho, and even that is stretching the definition of "meet". < 1260914772 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzien900: Consider that he may be a robot. < 1260914782 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Ah, yes, that's certainly feasible, although it would be easier to just sneak a layer under libc I suspect ... mebbe not. < 1260914790 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Tru. < 1260914795 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be neat. < 1260914810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could in *theory* just create a libc that uses different syscalls and an ELF loader. < 1260914822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hope that the program never uses a Linux system call directly. < 1260914825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, hm ... that's compelling ... I could just replace the syscall with a call to a special function that overloads to whatever the user would like, then define the entire interface as standard C, and run Linux binaries on ... anything. < 1260914833 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260914842 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POOPE's Obviously Only Partly Emulating < 1260914872 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Gregor already has the loader. < 1260914877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1260914890 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anything x86 < 1260914894 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNLESS < 1260914894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have tested it with Linux binaries... I know the thing works just fine. < 1260914908 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to alias libc.so.6 and libdl.so.2 and see how far that gets me, please hold. < 1260914910 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1260914922 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything of the binaries arch < 1260914943 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Try it on a BSD ELF binary. < 1260914944 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-3.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260914958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, calling conventions < 1260914959 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like shooting babies in an orphanage. < 1260914964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Actually, modern Linux binaries do system calls through the Linux call gate. < 1260914982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make the ELF loader just load in the proper call gate. < 1260914984 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260914998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OS X's calling conventions are not different from Linux's calling conventions. < 1260915012 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260915015 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This could be the start of something beauthorrible. < 1260915024 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1260915032 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, forgot to backspace. < 1260915036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not same numbers on different systems < 1260915044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1260915054 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ...so rewrite them < 1260915065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows ones are < 1260915066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly for x86-64 < 1260915070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to doing what he was doing in the first place :P < 1260915097 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Windows is the only OS that insists on fucking up calling conventions at all costs. < 1260915117 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1260915126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well, non-trivial to do on the fly, probably easier to put a thunking layer in between < 1260915128 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be on the actual computomotron tomorrow. I'll play with this crap (EXTREMELY LITERALLY) if I am. < 1260915140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well yes < 1260915145 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You mean like. A call gate? < 1260915160 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AS IN WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING < 1260915175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The call gate is dynamically linked, yes...\ < 1260915176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, what about apps that uses X11 < 1260915186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more work there I suspect < 1260915192 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1260915204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well, this would be for libc too for windows calling conventions < 1260915215 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone shoot AnMaster, hes < 1260915223 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About quarter of an houe behind. < 1260915226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, oh I thought you meant modify the calling sequences to libc at load < 1260915226 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hour. < 1260915231 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's. < 1260915235 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to let this conversation I started spiral out of control without me. < 1260915238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, patch the machine code < 1260915240 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: >_< < 1260915250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope, just have an alternate implementation of system calls. < 1260915256 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A vital step in parenting. < 1260915283 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So uh. Self modifying code. < 1260915293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code that examines itself too. < 1260915300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then calling convention would be irrelevant < 1260915302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260915302 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That code sucks. < 1260915303 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT IN TGE DICJINS WLL YOU DOOO MISTER < 1260915318 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO DOES YOUR MOTHER < 1260915320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, does he need to do anything special? < 1260915332 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he's rewriting code, yes. < 1260915338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260915343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, tell that to Deewiant < 1260915352 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, except that the Linux callgate is a handful of actual functions wrapping the most efficient way to do system calls... < 1260915353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION points to dobelx64 already mentioned today < 1260915379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that does it's own system calls iirc < 1260915397 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? We can handle that. < 1260915405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues to wait for everybody to finish pouting over problems that are entirely irrelevant in every conceivable way. < 1260915417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it uses the call gate < 1260915426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1260915437 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pouts all over Gregor's face. < 1260915445 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god I regret that < 1260915452 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY < 1260915483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*crickets* < 1260915536 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem. < 1260915601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no not the call gate < 1260915603 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'll never kill the conversation again I swear! < 1260915609 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't leave me! < 1260915618 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260915621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, AnMaster. < 1260915621 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn right you won't, you're going to conversation-killing PRISON. < 1260915631 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260915637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, he does syscall directly < 1260915641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the asm instruction < 1260915649 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets anally raped by a conversation in prison < 1260915652 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ow. < 1260915665 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry; "anally violated". < 1260915665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Dammit, AnMaster. <-- why? < 1260915690 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reviving the conversation just as I lamented it's parting. < 1260915698 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1260915699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1260915702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice < 1260915706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was busy reading asm < 1260915706 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did you do that, iPhone. < 1260915720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do what? < 1260915736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, anyway it's the middle of the week < 1260915738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you here < 1260915762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that I dislike that, just surprised) < 1260915792 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ducks. < 1260915909 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hit mw with. Link to that loader thing. < 1260915923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, logs :P < 1260915933 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ow, I should have typpen more carefully there. < 1260915944 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/gelfload/ < 1260915968 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivially simple, yet apparently exciting to the extreme :P < 1260916019 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260916040 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pingeriffic. < 1260916045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, #define WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN <-- interesting < 1260916054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that actually exists? < 1260916061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it prevent including? < 1260916066 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1260916066 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Who friggin' knows. < 1260916078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well you used it < 1260916079 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260916083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codu.org/projects/gelfload/hg/index.cgi/file/666ac7de7f97/src/bbuffer.c < 1260916089 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware. < 1260916095 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone recommends its use. < 1260916096 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. I missed thugs < 1260916096 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I use it. < 1260916098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260916099 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things < 1260916099 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idonno what it does. < 1260916105 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link to todays log pls < 1260916112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, topic < 1260916125 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone replaced plz with pls XD < 1260916131 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Keyword todays < 1260916133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, good thing < 1260916144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you are lazy, it is at the top, sorted < 1260916153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really →→ < 1260916156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'd just < 1260916161 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather AVOID < 1260916163 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.129 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260916163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loading a < 1260916166 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gigantic < 1260916169 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Page < 1260916172 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On < 1260916173 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My < 1260916175 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone < 1260916178 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See why? < 1260916179 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the way you can just copy dotfiles from one computer to another < 1260916187 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have all the settings copy too < 1260916192 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the way you can jump up < 1260916197 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then get this < 1260916197 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOOSE AND SQVIRREL < 1260916200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260916212 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gravity does all he work of wutomtaically vrining you down < 1260916219 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Automatically. Beijing. < 1260916222 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi from my new computer, everyone < 1260916222 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260916226 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bringing. < 1260916240 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay for iphone autocorrect? < 1260916253 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite < 1260916270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its berry you's full. < 1260916319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, specs < 1260916320 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all I need to do is reinstall software < 1260916326 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a spelling chequer / it came with my pea sea. / It plainly Marx for my revue / mistakes I cannot sea. < 1260916328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also two arrows, invalid, thus doesn't count) < 1260916341 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: imagine a netbook, that's been hastily powered up so as to render it capable of running a non-crippled version of Win7 < 1260916344 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260916350 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore is over the top for anything I want to do < 1260916351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, brand? < 1260916354 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toshiba < 1260916358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and size? < 1260916364 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.6 inches < 1260916371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1260916373 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smaller and lighter than what I'm used to < 1260916373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why so small < 1260916379 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and small for weight reasons < 1260916384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, horrible keyboard I bet < 1260916386 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, the screen res is a bit better than on the last one < 1260916388 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1260916394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keyboard's decent < 1260916400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except ` and \ are in stupid places < 1260916400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, small keys? < 1260916403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one either side of the spacebar < 1260916407 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No insulting Toshiba laptops, they're good. But ignore ais523_, he buys shit computers because he hates spending money. < 1260916411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keys are actually the same size as before < 1260916414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: heh < 1260916416 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably a good netbook. < 1260916422 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not a good laptop. < 1260916424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: it's too powerful to really be a netbook < 1260916434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.6 is a netbook < 1260916438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has a whole 3GB of memory < 1260916446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size is not the only thing that determines netbookness < 1260916452 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260916457 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol at weight reasons though < 1260916460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3GB, incidentally, because Windows won't use all of 4GB, and it came with Windows) < 1260916468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you try carrying a laptop six miles down a canal < 1260916470 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you actually have muscles in your arms? < 1260916472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did once, it was painful < 1260916479 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did you opt for the cheaper option < 1260916488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this wasn't the cheapest one there < 1260916489 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just bone and a little skin coating < 1260916497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260916511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if you want to laugh at me, laugh at me for putting a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit computer < 1260916518 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Try buying a bag < 1260916528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bag < 1260916532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops wait. Money < 1260916535 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260916540 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just teasing. < 1260916541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought one yesterday for the laptop < 1260916567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you will use 64-bit linux on it right? < 1260916572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 32-bit linux < 1260916579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the windows is 64-bit, it can't really handle it < 1260916586 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there ever is an #esoteric meetup I will merely repeatedly divert the topic to how much better my laptop is < 1260916589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a Windows Experience Index benchmark thing < 1260916592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if I don't have one < 1260916596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this computer scores 3.1 < 1260916604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well windows 64 bit is worse than windows 32 bit < 1260916607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the help files, you need 3 to run Aero, and 4 to run more than one program at a time < 1260916611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same is not true for linux < 1260916613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IME < 1260916614 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN was recently covered by the rather good Old New Thing: http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/11/30/9929944.aspx < 1260916615 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of 8 btw < 1260916617 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iirc < 1260916643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 64-bit is less efficient unless you have more than 4 MiB of memory or repeatedly do 64-bit arithmetic < 1260916645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just like to note that the only issues I've had on 64-bit Linux are issues with obscure scientific packages I've had to futz with for work... < 1260916652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can only fit half as many pointers into cache < 1260916654 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone want to transcribe my voice to the channel? < 1260916657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and half as many native-sized ints < 1260916657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... Or use shared libraries. < 1260916662 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be rather less tedious. < 1260916672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, more GP registers < 1260916682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so better register allocation < 1260916688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also better calling convention < 1260916694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since more stuff is passed in registers < 1260916714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(position independent code on x86_32 soaks up a whole register, and there's not many of them available) < 1260916718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on 32-bit x86 they are all passed on stack < 1260916721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq said < 1260916726 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 4 *M*iB? XD < 1260916732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, GiB < 1260916737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the screen res is about the same as the old one < 1260916741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly wider, slightly less tall < 1260916769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1366 x 768 < 1260916771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This issue does not really apply to Windows at all. < 1260916773 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how Dasher might be on the iPhone. < 1260916777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well indeed < 1260916784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it doesn't use PIC < 1260916798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old one was 1280x800 < 1260916802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so in fact 64-bit linux will likely be better than 32-bit < 1260916804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for you < 1260916806 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIC is pretty irrelevant with virtual memory. < 1260916812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they just relocate the damned library to each program's load address. < 1260916814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, I've installed this now < 1260916818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: It's relevant for shared libraries. < 1260916823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's unlikely to make a noticeable difference < 1260916826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you will regret it in the long term < 1260916831 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shared libraries are ahit < 1260916833 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahit < 1260916834 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit < 1260916836 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260916839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you'll want to map the library into different addresses in different processes... < 1260916842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but they are used < 1260916845 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No he won't < 1260916850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, when your distro is done *shurg* < 1260916857 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Te difference ia neglegible < 1260916858 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The < 1260916859 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is < 1260916865 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He won't regret it. < 1260916882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think it at least has a dual-core processor < 1260916907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no it doesn't < 1260916909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just single as before < 1260916914 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Atom? < 1260916923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :model name : Genuine Intel(R) CPU U2700 @ 1.30GHz < 1260916931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sticker on it says "pentium", but not which version < 1260916933 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, ULV. < 1260916934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's a pentium 1! < 1260916946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what's ULV?) < 1260916953 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultra low voltage < 1260916960 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultra low performance < 1260916975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much what I wanted < 1260916983 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom wants that. < 1260916996 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An #esoteric meetup would be cool. < 1260916999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917000 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917001 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260917001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what I use computers for, mostly/ < 1260917005 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& scary < 1260917027 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<chuckmoore twin="evil">Bah, who needs relocatable code? Just recompile your code into memory each time it is loaded. If that is not practical, your code is too big and your compiler is slowed down by unnecessary language features.</chuckmoore> < 1260917056 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917086 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun & scary: see #esoteric meetups, duck binging. < 1260917099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also scary: wtf would someone DDOS Freenode? < 1260917106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently that's what's been causing all the netsplits < 1260917120 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duck binging: the giving of copious amounts of alcohol. To ducks. < 1260917138 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric meetups: See duck binging. < 1260917201 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but where? < 1260917219 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sealand. < 1260917223 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917223 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917235 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brb < 1260917617 0 :ehirdiphone_!n=ehirdiph@82.132.139.144 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260917674 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260917851 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehirdiphone < 1260918388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260918388 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918388 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918389 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@82.132.139.144 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :ineiros_!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918389 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918390 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb clog < 1260918390 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918402 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi oerjan. < 1260918408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehirdiphone < 1260918421 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1260918471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260918508 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1260918521 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260918526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehirdiphone < 1260918534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi oerjan. < 1260918749 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISSONANTLY BYE BYE < 1260918751 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260918928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918929 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918930 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260918930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260919359 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-53-41.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260919359 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260920424 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260920812 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260922814 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1260924190 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-99-161.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260924190 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed. (Damnit, the bloody door's stuck again!) < 1260924192 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed. (Damnit, the bloody door's stuck again!) < 1260924669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a revolving door, i see < 1260924690 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it was used to commit a murder < 1260924710 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the blood somehow reacted with the paint to cause it to stick harder than superglue < 1260924731 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and there are two of them < 1260924811 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260925262 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :HaskellLllama < 1260925414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1260926613 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260928897 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]" < 1260930620 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260930627 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260933333 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1260933389 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260933776 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260934728 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260934889 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260936591 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260938571 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260938688 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940079 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940079 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940080 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940080 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940080 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940080 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940152 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940153 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940153 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940299 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940299 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940299 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940310 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940310 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940310 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940354 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940354 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940354 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940642 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260940912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940912 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940912 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940913 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940913 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940913 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940914 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260940962 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260941027 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941312 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941390 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260941452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941452 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941452 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941452 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941452 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941453 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941474 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941474 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941663 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941663 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941664 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941664 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941664 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941665 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941703 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941744 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941744 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941744 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260941857 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941857 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941857 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941857 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941857 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941857 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941857 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941958 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941958 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260941958 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942201 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942201 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942201 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942201 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942201 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942202 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942231 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942231 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942231 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942231 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942231 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942231 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942231 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942759 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942759 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942759 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942759 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942759 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942921 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942921 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942921 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942921 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942921 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942921 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942921 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942937 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942937 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942937 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260942998 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942998 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260942998 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260943050 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943050 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943051 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943051 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943051 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943051 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943193 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943193 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943193 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943193 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943193 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943193 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943193 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943353 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943353 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943353 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943353 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943353 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943353 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943388 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943388 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943388 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943388 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943388 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943388 0 :HaskellLllama!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943388 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943399 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943399 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943399 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260943438 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943438 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260943438 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260944131 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260944323 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260946073 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260946730 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260946840 0 :HaskellLllama!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament < 1260948378 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260950399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260950400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260951365 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260951381 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260952020 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260953418 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260953452 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260953528 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260954798 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260955526 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260959409 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260965739 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260971372 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260971433 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260972885 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@78.88.180.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260973560 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260973568 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260973799 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260974181 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1260974185 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have created a frankenstei < 1260974186 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1260974201 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of an accumulator, Brainf**k and Nybblings(my own crappy creation) < 1260974313 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has cell memory, a callstack and an accumulator < 1260974417 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21 commands < 1260974461 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m3b592645 < 1260974778 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/m190665e0 - new command < 1260975551 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975551 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975552 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975552 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975553 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975696 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975696 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260975696 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260976069 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976103 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976161 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976161 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976280 0 :asiekierka2!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260976621 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260976625 0 :asiekierka2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1260977205 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260977766 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260977895 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260977895 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260977895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260977895 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260977895 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260977896 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260977896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978015 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978015 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978017 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978170 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978182 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978356 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978356 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978356 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978356 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978356 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978356 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978374 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978374 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260978409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc < 1260978423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed. remind me, read it hours ago < 1260978433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cliffhangers < 1260978438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes < 1260978439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260978553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did you get xkcd today at all < 1260978640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1260978815 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978815 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978815 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978817 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978817 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978821 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978821 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978821 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260978827 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260979317 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174.16.203.47 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260979317 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.129 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-99-161.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979317 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979333 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260979334 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979334 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster_ < 1260979336 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979349 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260979357 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260979357 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1260979365 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1260979487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has Freenode stopped being DDOSed yet? < 1260979516 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1260979524 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but something else happened < 1260979834 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980207 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980207 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980245 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980292 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980292 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980292 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980322 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980322 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980325 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980325 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980325 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260980350 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980350 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980417 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster_ < 1260980633 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980633 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980633 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980633 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260980633 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260981230 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260981290 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260981322 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260981465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260981475 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.129 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260981619 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982135 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982135 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982136 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :SendQ exceeded < 1260982136 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision < 1260982136 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :anm_ub!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-163-45-233.range86-163.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-99-161.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982136 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982228 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982228 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982228 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982229 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260982275 0 :anm_ub!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :anmaster|noteboo < 1260982327 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982333 0 :anmaster|noteboo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :anmaster|laptop < 1260982346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster|laptop: your computer just changed size? < 1260982453 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no? < 1260982454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a notebook, now it's a laptop < 1260982456 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no, the point here was that it wasn't a noteboo < 1260982462 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a notebook/laptop < 1260982462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260982468 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said it was a netbook < 1260982472 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :netbook != notebook < 1260982472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas this is somewhere between a netbook and a subnotebook < 1260982500 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, notebook = "new name for laptop since it was discovered that actually using it on your lap isn't such a good idea" < 1260982510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260982515 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260982516 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least ehird claimed that < 1260982522 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for temperature reasons < 1260982530 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1260982530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I used to use one on my lap with a duvet in between < 1260982530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while lying in bed < 1260982535 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, to make the matter worse I'm using my desktop keyboard atm < 1260982537 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :synergy < 1260982553 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just my normal bouncer isn't managing to join all channels before losing connection < 1260982563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the DDOS is that bad? < 1260982564 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus an emergency connection for the important channels on my laptop < 1260982572 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I'm in a lot of channels < 1260982574 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually < 1260982580 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on this connection just 4 channels < 1260982592 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my usual is around 70 or so iirc < 1260982597 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad that #esoteric is one of those four < 1260982603 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1260982612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I voluntarily keep myself to a maximum number of channels that fits on the screen horizontally < 1260982622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a method of preventing myself overchanneling < 1260982623 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have a vertical list < 1260982629 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982629 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982629 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982629 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982629 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982629 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260982629 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to scroll it < 1260982636 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even on my desktop < 1260982660 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, after all I'm on something like 420 or so in total nowdays. Yes I cut down recently < 1260982720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many do you actually pay attention to conversations in? < 1260982771 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 70% maybe, not all are high volume. Not all are meant for reading (stuff like log channel for network services on one network, only read it when something bad happened and you need to figure out what) < 1260982793 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some, like #freenode I only look in when there are lots of splits < 1260982869 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this nick is moving the nick column too far out. < 1260982905 0 :anmaster|laptop!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :anmaster_l < 1260982910 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be better < 1260982917 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260983067 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260983299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983299 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983299 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983300 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983300 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983357 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here we go again < 1260983359 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983359 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any second now < 1260983359 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :split again on the other computer's connection < 1260983420 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983420 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260983489 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983643 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983688 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983688 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983688 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983688 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983688 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983688 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260983890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs packages < 1260983925 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you please highlight me < 1260983928 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to test something < 1260983929 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this client < 1260983932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: highlight < 1260983935 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm worked < 1260983953 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you now highlight me in /msg to me directly. I think it is still broken there < 1260983970 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in: /msg anmaster_l anmaster_l < 1260983971 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1260984172 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260984335 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-18.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260984497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep reading that as /iËhÉ™rdÉŞfoĘŠn/. < 1260984514 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Y'know, ee-HER-dih-fone.) < 1260984650 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka's crappy irc server using some network apps: asciinet.ath.cx:6667 < 1260985364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you have an ath.cx thing. Is that a DynDNS domain name? < 1260985548 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260985551 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, uorygl < 1260985560 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asciiland.ath.cx:6667 does the same though < 1260985973 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, what irc server is it? < 1260986101 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my own < 1260986104 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hosted from my netbook < 1260986106 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on beware irc < 1260986107 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1260986120 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has service < 1260986121 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1260986244 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION adds 500 milliseconds of delay to asiekierka's enter key. < 1260986370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<asiekierka> my own <asiekierka> on beware ircd <-- so not your own then. I was asking about ircd yes < 1260986378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway *shrug* < 1260986384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, how many users? < 1260986411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION see no point in connecting really < 1260986545 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five? < 1260986545 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why the sudden decision to get a cloak today? < 1260986552 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260986552 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four < 1260986555 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 bot, 3 people < 1260986555 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, excluding services I meant < 1260986558 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also my own as in i host it < 1260986566 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1260986597 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bot is not a service < 1260986636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: I'd meant to for a while, just never got around to it < 1260986641 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was in #freenode and thought, why not? < 1260986788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freenode should offer something that they could call a "dagger", so that you could get the full cloak-and-dagger experience. < 1260986953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260987409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what a dagger could be, though. Something you can stab with. < 1260987909 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /stab fizzie < 1260988347 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://pastebin.com/m3b592645 - bored < 1260988564 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260988743 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wot < 1260988805 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260989154 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260989323 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260989640 0 :ttthebest!n=theotime@AMontsouris-553-1-5-190.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260989656 0 :ttthebest!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260990234 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260990449 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dagger deletes an IRC channel and prevents it from being recreated. < 1260990946 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1260992617 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260993063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what is the point of time() taking an argument that is a pointer to somewhere to also store the return value < 1260993070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, normally you just do time(NULL); < 1260993080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why have that argument there at all. it seems mostly useless < 1260993092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to take the argument only, wasn't it so? < 1260993097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backwards compat, I think < 1260993101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260993226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is there any standard C function to get a random floating point value? < 1260993241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1260993252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, it's basically impossible to randomise fairly over the range of floats < 1260993256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1260993259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are more of them at some places than others < 1260993286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I need a reasonable random floating point value in the range [0,2*pi) < 1260993286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260993305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, random enough to be good enough for a game of pong in this case < 1260993320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just generate a random integer from 0 to RAND_MAX and scale < 1260993320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not for any cryptographically important things < 1260993326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah sounds best < 1260993338 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When your needs are just "reasonable", you can take the one returned by plain old rand(), floatize, divide by RAND_MAX, and have ais523 write this advice a lot faster than I. < 1260993380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe divide by (RAND_MAX+1) if you want that half-open interval. < 1260993424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: be careful there, given that RAND_MAX + 1 may well overflow an integer < 1260993435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I guess it would be unfair to make it 1/RAND_MAX times more likely to go in one direction < 1260993442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it probably wouldn't matter < 1260993488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since 0 = 2pi when it comes to trigonometry < 1260993497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well no, not really, but the effect is that) < 1260993783 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437590.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260993893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth is the #define M_PI in math.h not part of standard C, but instead POSIX only? < 1260993951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260993964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it is XSI even! < 1260995805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260995805 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260995805 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260995805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260995806 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260995806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260995874 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260996503 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260996503 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260996503 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260996503 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260996503 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260996503 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260997055 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260997144 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260997184 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260997228 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260998490 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1260998591 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260999520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260999520 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260999520 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260999520 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260999521 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260999521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261000013 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000013 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000013 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000013 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000013 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000013 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000238 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261000715 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261001947 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001947 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001947 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001947 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001947 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001947 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001947 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261001948 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-99-161.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-87-118.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :lifthrasiir!i=JfVakujn@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :jix!n=jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Rembane2!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261001948 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261002532 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Xenonidas < 1261002697 0 :Xenonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas < 1261003069 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 256ths of a circle? That's not all that strange. < 1261003291 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's 8-bit degrees :P < 1261003336 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261003340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, indeed. But it was stored as fixpoint in a 32-bit int < 1261003344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which made about zero sense < 1261003363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's pretty weird :P < 1261003395 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-48-25.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261003605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, agreed < 1261003617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, to begin with it is weird that anyone uses fixpoint these days < 1261003651 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a fixpoint < 1261003656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the unit is not 1/256 < 1261003666 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's whole numbers, and the unit is smaller :) < 1261003669 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embedded developers use fixed point. < 1261003747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261003753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this wasn't for embedded devices < 1261003768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, to begin with, embedded devices would never use motif < 1261003776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no, it isn't motif < 1261003779 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody should use motif. < 1261003784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is custom < 1261003790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it uses X < 1261003796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a whole lot of other things < 1261003945 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261004006 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261004876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, Motif should die. As should the X11 widget library. < 1261004897 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has died :P < 1261004913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's almost died. < 1261004932 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing in F/OSS ever dies to the point where it simply no longer exists, it's died as much as F/OSS can die. < 1261004932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about historical software < 1261004933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The library has not been purged from every UNIX machine. < 1261004935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitrot < 1261004967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, Motif hasn't really suffered from that. It's maintained at *least* enough so that it still builds. < 1261004981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes that is why motif should and most continue to exist < 1261005046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that applications can build against it < 1261005046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're talking to someone who wants to nuke all of X11... < 1261005046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about people who want to try mosaic for example? < 1261005046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Meh". < 1261005066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, historical software should be accessible IMO < 1261005066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is part of our history < 1261005264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005264 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005264 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005265 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005266 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005267 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh netsplit ahead < 1261005287 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look I'm clairvoyant! < 1261005294 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005295 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1261005315 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005320 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1261005330 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait didn't we already do it= < 1261005336 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/ < 1261005347 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/$/\/\// < 1261005367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes we did. i think we have officially jumped the shark. < 1261005374 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1261005377 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1261005389 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that is when it *really* takes off < 1261005407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats anmaster_l -----### < 1261005448 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there are complex numbers and quaternions, what about some type of extension to the real numbers that have three "components" instead? < 1261005468 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for that matter, more than four < 1261005508 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005508 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005508 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005508 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005508 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are always vectors of any dimension. it is getting multiplication and division with any kind of reasonable properties tham limits it to 1,2,4,8 < 1261005539 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and what about 16? < 1261005550 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if I'm seeing the correct pattern here) < 1261005587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a new property breaks down at each step. at 16 there isn't anything left, more or less. < 1261005619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quaternions don't have commutative multiplication, octonions don't have associative < 1261005626 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261005638 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then what is the next step to drop? < 1261005675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005675 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005675 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005676 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261005678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley-Dickson_construction < 1261005686 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005686 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005686 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005686 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005686 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261005693 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah interesting < 1261005734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The algebra immediately following the octonions is called the sedenions. It retains an algebraic property called power associativity, meaning that if s is a sedenion, snsm = sn + m, but loses the property of being an alternative algebra and hence cannot be a composition algebra. < 1261005740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Cayley-Dickson construction can be carried on ad infinitum, at each step producing a power-associative algebra whose dimension is double that of algebra of the preceding step. < 1261005744 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1261005745 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and freenode is being ddosed from what I heard < 1261005764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some superscripts got lost in the paste, as usual < 1261005772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: oh for real? < 1261005790 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no, rational < 1261005793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did we tick off... < 1261005820 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that was an oerjanific pun...) < 1261005838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it wasn't, it was an honest question < 1261005845 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, my reply I meant < 1261005855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1261005877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess i couldn't expect better while we are discussing octonions... < 1261005898 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true < 1261005914 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I always wondered why you can't do integer complex numbers < 1261005928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1261005932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*huh? < 1261005941 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess the question would be "integer on what form" now when I think more about it < 1261005957 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a+bi or polar form < 1261005963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have never heard of gaussian integers? < 1261005978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sounds strongly familiar. < 1261005994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_integer < 1261006062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is that on a+bi or r*e^(i*v) < 1261006086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a+bi < 1261006092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well okay < 1261006111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you can make re^(iv) where r and v are integers as well < 1261006119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be another integer domain I guess? < 1261006121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1261006147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r*e^(i*v) doesn't make sense as being anything close to integer - e^b is transcendental if b is algebraic != 0, 1 < 1261006215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not closed under sum. in fact it's a famous theorem that different e^(iv) are _independent_ generators as a vector space over rational numbers < 1261006289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261006289 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261006289 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261006290 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261006290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261006299 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@64.62.173.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261006299 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@131.151.189.189 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261006299 0 :lament!n=lament@24.87.20.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261006307 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@209.20.74.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261006326 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1261006326 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261006347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well something close to that. trying to look it up < 1261006360 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, going to sleep < 1261006368 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261006372 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261006377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261006382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindemann%E2%80%93Weierstrass_theorem < 1261006449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually it _doesn't_ apply to iv with v integer, since those are obviously _not_ linearly independent < 1261006478 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, anyone know what a linear combination of infinitely many things is? < 1261006490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it does apply under the equivalent formulation (Baker) listed < 1261006522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: requires a notion of limit at the very least... < 1261006534 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1261006578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it's not absolutely convergent, then depends on summation order < 1261006592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it depends < 1261006652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose your set is the set of all functions of the form f(x) = {a, if x <= b; a + (x - b), if x >= b} for real numbers a and b. < 1261006659 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are all the linear combinations of that? < 1261006739 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the degenerate cases {b = +infinity, a = k} and {b = -infinity, a - b = k} for real numbers k are linear combinations of that. < 1261006760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuitively i think you can converge to anything that has derivatives between -1 and 0 < 1261006774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1261006783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scratch that < 1261006794 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders taking inspiration from probability spaces. < 1261006818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait second derivative < 1261006835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1261006846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261006855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_linear_ combinations, not just sums < 1261006861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261006871 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider something that's like a probability space but without the requirement that the "probability" of the whole thing be 1. I imagine there's a name for that. < 1261006876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i think you basically get everything < 1261006882 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of distribution thingy. Not "distribution", I'm sure. < 1261006889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuous < 1261006917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on exactly what kind of limit you take i suppose < 1261006933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "measure" < 1261006936 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively, yeah, I think the linear combinations of that set are the continuous functions. < 1261006948 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, neat. < 1261006986 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What precisely, though, if the members of the "probability space" are S and the "probabilities" are T? < 1261007055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes... < 1261007091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the things that are integrals of measures are known as "absolutely continuous" functions < 1261007146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however there is an even further generation of this, which iirc _is_ called distributions < 1261007180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then things don't get to be real functions, but instead something called generalized functions < 1261007218 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distributions are too general. I think there's a distribution whose convolution with anything is its derivative. < 1261007238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes there is < 1261007263 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, let's call that thing a measure of S by T. < 1261007283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait absolutely continuous applies to when the measure itself is absolutely continuous < 1261007304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right... < 1261007315 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for some basis set B, consider the set of all measures of B by the real numbers... < 1261007366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (non-negative) measures, what you get by integrating them are the right continuous increasing functions < 1261007439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for probabilities at least, also known as cumulative distributions, but a different sense of the word distribution < 1261007444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also consider the set of all measures of B by whatever vector space B is a subset of... < 1261007487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/increasing/non-decreasing/ < 1261007492 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what's that thing that's like a tensor product but without ab * c = b * ac? :-P < 1261007515 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure that's called the product space of vectors or something. < 1261007628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh if you ignore scalar product? < 1261007673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a(b * c) also dropped at both ends, i presume? < 1261007714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then iiuc you only retain group properties, so tensor product _as_ groups rather than vector spaces? < 1261007770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product doesn't list that directly < 1261007798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_although_ abelian groups = Z modules, so it's listed indirectly i think < 1261007812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm really just talking about the Cartesian product of two vector spaces, made into a vector space the obvious way. < 1261007872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_product_of_modules, the example section uses a group < 1261007903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: um but then (ab * c) = a(b * c) = (b * ac) < 1261007928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1261007946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the _cartesian_ product of two vector spaces is not their tensor product < 1261007949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261007968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's in fact their direct sum instead < 1261008020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, product, those are equivalent for modules/vector spaces < 1261008038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so product, without tensor < 1261008065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION giggles at the idea of the sum of two vector spaces. < 1261008074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product < 1261008088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very general categorical concept < 1261008169 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1261008294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, as explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_product#Direct_product_of_modules, _finite_ sums and products are the same < 1261008485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why call it a sum if it's not a disjoint union? < 1261008515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disjoint union = sum in the category of _sets_, iirc < 1261008558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while product = cartesian product < 1261008583 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders proofs that 0 is not equal to 1, and decides that there isn't much of one anywhere. < 1261008591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sum and product categorically stem from the universal property concept < 1261008608 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261008635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: peano arithmetic or real numbers? < 1261008666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or von neumann ordinals perhaps < 1261008681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as cardinality < 1261008719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for real numbers i think it may be one of the axioms... < 1261008763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for peano arithmetic: 1 = succ(0). by axiom, 0 is not a successor. < 1261008815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :von neumann ordinal: {} is clearly a member of 1={{}}, and not of 0={} < 1261008886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION leaves the cardinality case as an exercise < 1261009374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brrr < 1261009380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders cardinality. < 1261009385 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dedekind cuts are another possibility. < 1261009385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at weather forecast < 1261009414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah, that would be as part of proving dedekind cuts fulfil the real number axioms < 1261009414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, real numbers? Is there a proof that 0 is not 1 for the real numbers that deserves the word "proof"? < 1261009436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said, it may be one of the axioms < 1261009566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it may be part of the definition of "field". from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics) : "For technical reasons, the additive identity and the multiplicative identity are required to be distinct." < 1261009623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, if you remove that requirement you only get a trivial field remaining, because then x = 1x = 0x = 0 < 1261009676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for dedekind cuts it's of course easy too, 1/2 is in one but not the other < 1261010529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you have to prove that 1/2 is in 1 but not 0. < 1261010564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1/2 < 1, as rational numbers < 1261010585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to recurse, apply recursion < 1261010588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261010608 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261010765 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261011524 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261011555 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261011830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261011924 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261012041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261012135 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261012245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261012268 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261012383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261012403 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261014124 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261014133 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@209.20.74.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261015513 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what a blue-yellow color would look like. < 1261015542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would probably blow < 1261015545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders how useful it is to try to imagine blue-yellow. < 1261015570 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've slightly succeeded. I seem to be imagining a slightly yellowish very light blue. < 1261015809 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about green? < 1261015825 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Green is neither bluish nor yellowish. < 1261015873 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You see, the colors, ignoring brightness, can be arranged into a plane. There's a red/green axis and a blue/yellow axis. Everything on the blue side of the blue/yellow axis is bluish, everything on the red side of the red/green axis is reddish, and so on. < 1261015885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i tried to tell him but i couldn't think of a pun that fit < 1261015945 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, "blow" was a pun. < 1261015982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles^Wblows innocently < 1261016015 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^W? < 1261016029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delete word in irssi < 1261016063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: That's a consequence of our three-cone vision, not an intrinsic property of colors. < 1261016113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261016197 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at cone cell responsivity spectra. < 1261016220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sometimes wonders what aliens with completely different color sense would make of our visual media < 1261016257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even just animals, if there are any such < 1261016279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(black and white vision obviously doesn't count) < 1261016288 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no reason to believe that the range would even be close to ours, so it's entirely possible that basically everything artificial would be a solid color. < 1261016309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Two-cone animals exist. e.g. cows. < 1261016314 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take an existing image. Create two images from it: one whose red component is the original's blue and whose blue is the original's green, and one whose green is the original's blue and the blue is the original's red. Put them side by side, and cross your eyes to as to look at both in the same place. < 1261016318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261016323 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't most mammals two-coners? < 1261016329 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, *that*. < 1261016348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: however they would still see it as naturally as we do if their cone subset is close enough to a subset of ours < 1261016365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cone subset/cone set/ < 1261016381 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, except that they wouldn't be able to distinguish e.g. green from purple. < 1261016403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's not being unable to distinguish things we can i'm pondering < 1261016462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pondering the fact that virtually all our visual media depends on our three cone vision and therefore the actual physical colors in a picture are probably nowhere close to the true colors of the thing depicted < 1261016500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i'm pondering is actually the opposite, someone who can distinguish things we cannot and so would consider our media to be horribly mismatched < 1261016537 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, looking at these spectra, I see that while the blue cone is pretty much orthogonal to the others, the red and green are quite similar. < 1261016550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall reading somewhere recently that birds have four cones, so they might apply... < 1261016589 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have a pretty good ability to distinguish red and green, considering that they're apparently similar colors, whereas our ability to distinguish blue and non-blue is more mundane. < 1261016596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are not intelligent enough to really make a statement on the issue < 1261016640 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might depend on the bird! < 1261016656 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs. < 1261016682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the thing i read had a "most" somewhere < 1261016696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er does the cough mean there was a pun there? < 1261016723 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it means I'm relatively unsure of what I just said. < 1261016723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you were talking about intelligence? < 1261016730 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1261016740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did read about that one parrot < 1261016748 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alex? < 1261016763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have friends named after that parrot. < 1261016765 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs. < 1261016772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Look, spaced repetition!) < 1261016868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i think it was n'kisi, found the goodall quote... < 1261016924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jane Goodall? < 1261016946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261016953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27kisi < 1261017258 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I told myself I would do non-actual work on a big project today. < 1261017272 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll do that now, right after asking 0x44 about Slicehost. < 1261017304 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except he's not here, so. < 1261017320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what non-actual work is like < 1261017434 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like actual work, but easier and more time-consuming. < 1261017458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual work is harder and even more time-consuming. < 1261017458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261017479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION detects a violation of the ordering axioms < 1261017485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If those two statements seem to contradict each other, ignore the second one. < 1261017510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1261018691 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261018930 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019012 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-32.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019226 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019382 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019502 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261019592 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261019710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261019730 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261020461 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261020721 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125.236.168.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261032001 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261033240 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261036363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH" < 1261036368 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261036799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261036800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261037378 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-110.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261037705 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-238-252-34.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261037966 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261037970 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :immibis < 1261038387 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261038440 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261040755 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261041385 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041385 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041385 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041386 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041386 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041386 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261041447 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261041489 0 :lifthrasiir!i=gXwEfhms@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261041589 0 :jix!n=jix@188.40.47.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261042564 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261042564 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261045193 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261045413 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-76-251.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261051255 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1261051682 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-76-251.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261052987 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261056861 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261060442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261061021 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261065993 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261066177 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.96.167.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261066492 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261066998 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261067023 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is AnMaster still connected < 1261067025 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1261067041 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since supposedly that computer was unreachable for several hours < 1261067054 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both over ssh and local terminal < 1261067195 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is atm running memtest... just in case) < 1261067292 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261067299 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1261067302 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hours ago < 1261067303 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remind me < 1261067366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn my internet is slow < 1261067376 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use damn slow linux < 1261067396 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fox < 1261067399 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1261067400 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax* < 1261067440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261067441 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iwc = I want cake < 1261067473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok must have been just that one site < 1261067486 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I know whatever it was happened between 17:15 and 17:29 < 1261067513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: end of the world. but it got restarted. < 1261067531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between 17:15 and 17:29, that is. i haven't looked at iwc yet. < 1261067534 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 17:15:06 was the last log message (doesn't seem related at all, just something from the caching dns server on the computer) < 1261067552 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 17:29:04 there is "syslog-ng starting up" < 1261067591 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually hm < 1261067597 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kern.log is more interesting < 1261067621 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l iwc < 1261067632 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is 17:12:51 about attaching sdb (card reader in printer, was turning printer on just as I got home) < 1261067637 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, err? No < 1261067643 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaic = as far as I cake < 1261067643 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ < 1261067650 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what we are talking about < 1261067659 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a contest we have, you must have noticed it < 1261067667 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1261067669 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can say iwc first (only valid between me and oerjan) < 1261067674 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, follow the link? < 1261067708 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iwc < 1261067718 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you say it < 1261067720 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261067725 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask oerjan < 1261067786 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked oerjan and he said: iwc < 1261067918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no soup, dragon < 1261067928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: no i didn't < 1261067948 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261067997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats soupdragon for stealth changing his nick again -----### < 1261068013 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi. I had some weird issue with a system locking up. Weird as in: didn't respond for hours on ssh. Later on when I got home I found it didn't respond on console either < 1261068032 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261068037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: seems rather unusual, although I've had that sort of thing too < 1261068038 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, however, no blinking keyboard leds for kernel panic, in fact the keyboard was completely dead, even to sysrq < 1261068047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could it be a hardware problem? < 1261068050 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but there was a log message from just before I used it! < 1261068051 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261068058 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats oerjan for wanting cake < 1261068060 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssh had been locked up for quite a bit < 1261068065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is the system definitely powered on? < 1261068067 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the log messages stopped < 1261068074 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes, fan was on. and it is loud < 1261068079 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I had to use the reset button < 1261068079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... forkbomb perhaps < 1261068091 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unlikely, sysrq should work then, no? < 1261068112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1261068120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps memory exhaustion and thrashing < 1261068122 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and numlock, scrolllock and such should do something when you press them < 1261068124 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like changing the led < 1261068139 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, disk is loud in that computer. but it was just spinning idly < 1261068152 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, no disk seeking and disk light on front of computer off < 1261068172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1261068178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... kernel memory corrupted somehow? < 1261068192 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe. USB devices I tried to connect stayed off btw < 1261068195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could sort-of explain what happened if some process started trashing memory < 1261068204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hit sshd first, then the kernel < 1261068211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that sort of thing usually only happens on Windows < 1261068240 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 1) limits are set up 2) sshd and syslog-ng are both set to have low oom score using the files for that in /proc < 1261068255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: wow, that's tunable? < 1261068264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly wonders how easily oom score could be improved < 1261068269 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes, you can say "avoid killing this process" < 1261068273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not talking about out-of-memory, but rather, corrupted memory < 1261068277 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea for syslog-ng and possibly sshd < 1261068296 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as for memory corruption I ran memtest just last weekend, no issues < 1261068311 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What computational class is required to increment a number? < 1261068319 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INC < 1261068321 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261068322 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made that up < 1261068329 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it seems perfectly fine after rebooting, even very few transactions replied < 1261068334 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think about 5 < 1261068348 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it seems to reply a few hundred in case of power failure or such < 1261068351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: indefinitely, you need infinite memory but very little else < 1261068354 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261068362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: constant space works but only for little-endian ... < 1261068377 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh? < 1261068378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant space == finite automaton < 1261068383 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261068383 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the nummber is 4 < 1261068397 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1261068409 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why does it not work for big endian? < 1261068428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for big-endian you need to save the length of a carry run... < 1261068428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: incrementing 4, in particular, is finite-state < 1261068435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is any other operation which always produces the same answer < 1261068436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which takes logarithmic space < 1261068495 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we are limited by the length of the input number, and it's inputted in binary (any base would work, but I find it easier to think of it that way) < 1261068502 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw smartctl shows no logged errors or anything < 1261068506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say when summing 111111 and 000000 you don't know that there is no carry until you have read the last bits < 1261068509 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we could always decrement a number >0 by 1, but not increment it, right? < 1261068530 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it all looks completely normal < 1261068530 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _always_ increment it, that is < 1261068544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok even little-endian requires you to be able to read the summands in parallel < 1261068549 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say the biggest number incremented goes back to the start < 1261068550 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and afaik there is no brown-out to blame it on this time < 1261068554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1261068580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking addition. INC doesn't need that of course < 1261068594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, 111111 has problems when reading big-endian < 1261068623 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers a self modifying FSM < 1261068647 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one < 1261068657 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the concept in general < 1261068658 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1261068675 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if it grew legs and could walk then it grows a brain and becomes alive! < 1261068681 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261068734 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But an FSM can increment a number, given enough memory.. so if we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the input, it would need to have a lower computational class than an FSM? < 1261068755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: but the one number you cannot increment is exactly dual to the 0 you cannot decrement... < 1261068782 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual? < 1261068803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under switching 0 and 1 < 1261068804 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but if you're limited to the length of the inputted value, it means you can't increment _any_ value consisting of only ones < 1261068806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, wait, isn't incrementing by 1 bounded by the length of the input? < 1261068816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM < 1261068818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all it is just one bit more < 1261068831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean exactly as long < 1261068832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if it's bounded to be the same length, or proportional to it, it's LBA by definition < 1261068839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: and you cannot decrement any value consisting of only zeros. dual, as i said. < 1261068842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than "in a fixed relation to the length" < 1261068881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: also, the FSM can increment anything, with its noodly appendages. < 1261068898 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doh < 1261068901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, is this a bad pun? < 1261068905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1261068910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't get it < 1261068911 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flying Spagetti Machine < 1261068915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1261068920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: *Monster < 1261068925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261068928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1261068929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, *Spaghetti < 1261068929 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I'm thinking about is this, but I'm probably wrong: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint < 1261068952 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, didn't catch the FSM pun :( < 1261068956 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails < 1261068961 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CoolL!!!!! < 1261068994 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I can't see how one could increment "11", "111", "1111", ... < 1261069001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<FireFly> ...so if < 1261069001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<FireFly> ... we have a language whose output is bounded by the length of the < 1261069004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : input, it would need to have a lower computational class than < 1261069004 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you increment binary? < 1261069007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : an FSM? < 1261069009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1261069013 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to the only exception of "0" for decrementing < 1261069020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the heck cannot irssi be _consistent_ about merging lines < 1261069036 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decrementing a number is quite trivial to do in Bipoint. Incrementing a number, on the other hand, would be impossible??? < 1261069084 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as I said, I guess I'm wrong then < 1261069092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: no, it's specifically for INC, little-endian, because you can scan input, print output and keep only constant carry bit as memory < 1261069110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't work for reversing the input, say < 1261069118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, stop using irssi < 1261069123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want something that works well < 1261069129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261069129 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly I don't understand the execution < 1261069161 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :._. < 1261069168 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that the input is read, bit by bit < 1261069171 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, symbol by symbol < 1261069181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well normally i would only paste from the logs, which works fine, but the conversation was going so fast i though i should provide context < 1261069186 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And each time, a decision is made, for which node to continue to < 1261069194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261069206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, still consistency is not one of the hallmarks of irssi < 1261069242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> FireFly: output bounded by length of input is LBA (by definition), and so /higher/ than an FSM < 1261069250 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, "output" is _always_ of the same length as input < 1261069253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually LBA can give exponential output < 1261069276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, I meant storage bounded by length of input < 1261069278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and said the wrong thing < 1261069278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under the interpretation that output is not part of the memory < 1261069291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for correcting me < 1261069293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is the most useful) < 1261069301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261069324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can or can not an FSM implement increment? < 1261069342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for little endian, yes I see the issue with big endian) < 1261069475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hm... < 1261069500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you can print more than one symbol for a symbol read, yes. < 1261069508 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.co.uk/group/net.general/browse_thread/thread/479e7ea4fcd78cc5/e809b92fdcc92888?pli=1 < 1261069511 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man lol < 1261069517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, as long as you are allowed to have a "end of stream" symbol or such and are allowed to output 2 or 3 symbols at once < 1261069534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might need 3 if you use a end of stream symbol and want to be able to increment it again < 1261069551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1261069611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and I haven't seen anywhere that forbids a FSM returning an n-tuple or list of symbols < 1261069613 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/mdc465d6 <-- soupdragon what about that? < 1261069638 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Execution begins at S, and then moves to the given arrow depending on the next symbol in the input string < 1261069638 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1261069646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what language < 1261069649 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261069653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some 2D one. but which one? < 1261069660 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one I linked, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint < 1261069660 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261069663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've seen that allowed, although it was called a transducer < 1261069664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261069666 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to be ASCII art of a graph < 1261069667 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you FireFLy < 1261069679 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No problem :P < 1261069682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm okay. I was thinking along the lines of a mealy automaton here < 1261069728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "A FSA can be considered to be able to produce more than one output signal per transition or state. Or, some transitions may not depend on an input signal at all, moving to a new state automatically. (These two situations are also equivalent, save for the number of states required.)" < 1261069729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from < 1261069730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine < 1261069771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm looking at wikipedia, which definitely mentions transducers (and mealy automata are in that section) < 1261069803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transducer? < 1261069811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine < 1261069898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but plain accepting/rejecting ones can't produce any output at all can they? < 1261069908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from being in an accepting/rejecting state at the end < 1261069929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I think is exactly one bit of information, no? < 1261069967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well duh < 1261070030 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hooho < 1261070035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, i suppose you could consider the end state the output, for a little more < 1261070049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well okay. < 1261070081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seems like moore machines dually have no input... < 1261070083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, still that is a finite number of possible outputs, even if input is infinite < 1261070093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what do you mean? < 1261070094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than initial state) < 1261070114 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * "10011" would mean that {1, 0, 0, 1, 1} would be pushed to the stack, so it would contain {1, 1, 0, 0, 1}. < 1261070120 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why so complicated!!! < 1261070121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, clock input < 1261070138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, isn't moore ones like: "transitions based on input, output based on what state you are in" < 1261070145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a moore machine cannot depend on what the input is. although it seems it can still synchronize with it < 1261070152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261070155 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, soupdragon, that was mostly because if it just read the string the regular way, it would have to take reversed numbers as input, and output reversed numbers as well < 1261070162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn i've misunderstood then < 1261070166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while mealy are like: "transitions based on input, output based on transitions" < 1261070177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well I had to learn this for a test a few months ago < 1261070179 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. 2 would have to be inputted as 01, but with the stacks you can actually input it as 10 < 1261070194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm *pretty* sure that either I'm correct or the teacher and the book was wrong < 1261070228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you beat me as i'm failing to learn it at this very moment ;) < 1261070255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moore machines that is. transducers i found in a book (math encyclopedia) years ago < 1261070277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long ago that i wasn't sure if it was still current terminology < 1261070285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well think like this. Assuming you represent the FSM as a graph with directed edges. On the edges are attached conditions. Which you use when you in a given state decide which edge to follow < 1261070287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1261070297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mealy has output on the edges as well < 1261070304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but moore has output on the nodes < 1261070316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make sense to you? < 1261070358 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261070366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it seems to agree with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine. < 1261070383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree the text at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Transducers is confusing < 1261070453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think transitions on edges are prettier, because then input is entirely dual to output. in fact you can invert a nondeterministic transducer to translate back iirc < 1261070470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transition on edges? err that's given isn't it? < 1261070471 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261070480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point was *output* on edges or output on nodes < 1261070484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er *output on edges < 1261070547 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1261070556 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states < 1261070556 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> also argh lag < 1261070562 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261070568 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what I say here go through to there < 1261070570 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the reverse < 1261070573 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is weird < 1261070583 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea about that? < 1261070605 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is weird; IIRC, asiekierka was reporting similar problems a while baclk < 1261070607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*back < 1261070632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also I'm pretty sure you can translate mealy to moore. just you need (possibly a lot) more states < 1261070632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also argh lag < 1261070637 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah I'm having problems seeing why lag would like 1-2 seconds in one direction and 20-30 seconds in the other < 1261070639 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1261070647 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even during ddos < 1261070653 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is still going on < 1261070706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnop < 1261070714 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y( < 1261070743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from oerjan: 29.79 second(s) < 1261070744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from ais523: 28.08 second(s) < 1261070746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261070825 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly can you make a better syntax for it? < 1261070830 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something more readabil < 1261070862 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I couldn't come up with anything easy, except of course a graph, but requiring ASCII art is a bit evil :P < 1261070872 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, every statement is basically, if pop() == 0 (or 1) then goto A; else goto B ? < 1261070879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a languitch of ay readabil syntacse < 1261070893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, is that paste runnable? < 1261070899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, what is a runnable version? < 1261070909 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint#Example_programs is a runnable version < 1261070919 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, the paste was a graph to help understanding it < 1261070934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oerjan> a languitch of ay readabil syntacse <-- you fail at spelling. Possibly this a pun so mangled I'm unable to trace it < 1261070947 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLLO < 1261070950 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you fail if you can't trace it to the row abov it < 1261070953 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above, even :) < 1261070969 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, line*, I guess < 1261070971 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails again < 1261070981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, I'm unable to figure out what "ay" could mean. Only thing I can think of is "aye" which makes no sense < 1261070994 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'a'? < 1261070996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well "may" maybe. but that makes even less sense < 1261071004 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly answer me please :P < 1261071010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, that isn't pronounced that like that in English though < 1261071016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it is some weird dialect < 1261071049 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, well, the syntax isn't the best, but it works. you could of course use C-style syntax if you want, and simply compile it to Bipoint afterwards < 1261071059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "ay" is the emphasized pronunciation of "a", as far as i've always thought < 1261071063 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly no no just trying ot undersatnd your statements < 1261071066 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : op -> ifZero : ifOne < 1261071070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as before vowels < 1261071071 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that means, < 1261071085 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every line has a unique id, ifZero and ifOne are branches that say which id to go to next < 1261071088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wouldn't that be closer to "ai"? < 1261071093 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's op about < 1261071098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, between "ai" and "ay" < 1261071099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1261071112 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, and if op is 1, it outputs 1 in the process, before jumping < 1261071117 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if op is 0, it outputs 0 < 1261071119 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1261071124 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an implementation might be < 1261071150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: english doesn't use the spelling ai at the end of native words < 1261071157 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each round of execution is an output of 0 or 1 (except for the starting node), as well as a jump to a new node, depending on if the next value of the stack is 0 or 1 < 1261071160 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id: push(op); pop() ? goto ifOne : goto ifZero; < 1261071165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i turns to y quite regularly < 1261071166 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly? < 1261071175 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, something like that < 1261071176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, TP did sometimes to enhance a dialectal feeling iirc < 1261071182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does* < 1261071183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1261071187 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly is that wrong? < 1261071197 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, I think that should be correct < 1261071201 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261071210 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can write a unary increment then < 1261071212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so you do output on transitions? < 1261071217 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that turns 111 into 1111 < 1261071220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than on "current state" < 1261071243 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, no, that wouldn't work, since it can only output as many characters as you input < 1261071248 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261071250 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to the fixed number of jumps < 1261071253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so basically that is a mealy automaton with an input alphabet of {0,1} and same for output alphabet? < 1261071263 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, maybe :P < 1261071263 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly oh right I see < 1261071275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, was that "uh maybe" to me? < 1261071276 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the input is always the same size as the output < 1261071278 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I don't really know that much about computer science and stuff < 1261071279 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it was < 1261071286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mealy_machine < 1261071299 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1261071301 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a binary increment? < 1261071338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes given that you forbid outputting more than one symbol per transition incrementing is definitely impossible should any carry be needed. < 1261071349 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?? < 1261071358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, in bipoint I meant < 1261071377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay: "should any carry for the last element be needed" < 1261071377 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking it might be possible to do a binary increment in FireFlys language < 1261071380 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yeah, I suppose it's something in the lines of that < 1261071389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get rid of it before that you could manage it < 1261071391 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, not for values which consists of only 1 < 1261071399 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it's undefined on 11111 < 1261071404 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, incrementing 111 would mean 1000, which is an additional character < 1261071410 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's undefined for any string consisting of only ones < 1261071413 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or < 1261071415 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1261071435 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly what does S do? < 1261071439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you could of course pad it with a zero for the MSB always < 1261071445 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only for marking the start of execution, soupdragon < 1261071456 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm.. true, that'd work < 1261071459 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Padding with zeroes, that is < 1261071460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I assume it maps to the traditonal S_0 in CS < 1261071470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you need to pad with exactly one zero < 1261071478 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec < 1261071481 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah, right < 1261071485 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I define the identity?? < 1261071486 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's only an increment of 1 < 1261071504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id_0 : 0 -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id_1 : 1 -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, yes. I'm not even sure you could do full addition in it < 1261071513 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work but you need to get started, and what do you do at first?? < 1261071516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, maybe with interleaved bits? < 1261071518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261071542 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Campbell, is that you? < 1261071544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, can things point back to the S state? < 1261071551 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1261071556 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that it can't, why? < 1261071559 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's impossible to define the identity < 1261071562 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's almost certainly not him.) < 1261071564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, why not? < 1261071577 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, why would you need to do that? < 1261071581 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it? < 1261071623 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helooo < 1261071627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, another state needed if you want just two states < 1261071638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even just one state < 1261071640 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If S points to a value, you just have to point straight to that value instead? < 1261071652 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1261071664 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261071676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, wait, can't you have multiple edges from a single node? < 1261071692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait yes < 1261071693 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly am I right? < 1261071694 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only have two edges, one 0 and one 1? < 1261071696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you define them on the same row < 1261071698 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, about what? < 1261071708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, and you output depending on state, not on transtion < 1261071713 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly well you can do < 1261071716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then it isn't a mealy clearly, but a moore < 1261071722 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :start : S -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071726 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you were half way through a computation < 1261071733 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you wanted to do identity for the rest of the data, < 1261071733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread that < 1261071737 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way - is there? < 1261071771 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..how is identity defined? :) < 1261071783 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pasted it already < 1261071792 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah < 1261071807 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary_increment : S -> inc_0 : inc_1 < 1261071808 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inc_0 : 1 -> id_0 : id_1 < 1261071808 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inc_1 : 0 -> inc_0 : inc_1 < 1261071808 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1261071815 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the binary adding program then < 1261071849 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns 11101 into 00011 (read them backwards) < 1261071873 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, I guess that would work < 1261071950 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1261071974 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think AnMasters idea for adding works too < 1261071989 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might interleave the digits and outpute 0a0b0c0d < 1261071995 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where abcd is the real data < 1261072007 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And take input the same way? < 1261072010 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that would probably work < 1261072033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1261072042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, wait, do you define 1 to be the start state < 1261072050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, what is the output of it? < 1261072053 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1261072055 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im using named labels instead of numbers < 1261072056 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1261072057 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1261072061 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I noticed :P < 1261072062 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's more readable < 1261072065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so the first state can not produce an output? < 1261072076 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S can't produce output, that's right < 1261072079 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the other nodes can < 1261072088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, and is 1 = S here < 1261072090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the example < 1261072091 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster if S had to output you couldn't write the identity < 1261072097 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1261072101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261072113 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1261072118 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly you can define AND and OR in the same way as that ADD < 1261072120 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and XOR < 1261072130 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the start would have to preserve the first value? < 1261072145 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can define every function Bool^n -> Crap^n-1 * Bool < 1261072158 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that's correct? < 1261072217 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function not quite what I meant < 1261072281 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that characterization isn't good because it only works for fixed n, but you can define programs over all n in this language < 1261072684 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to classify the language bipoint? < 1261072752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, so the decrementing automaton is basically http://omploader.org/vMzBuNw < 1261072756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I understood it right? < 1261072780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where state numbers are preceded by S < 1261072791 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1261072793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should really be S_number < 1261072798 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Matches my hand drawn graph < 1261072804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where _ detonates same as in LaTeX) < 1261072810 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that I didn't print state numbers < 1261072814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, that was drawn with Dia < 1261072821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be worth trying < 1261072826 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, sounds interesting < 1261072830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, open source < 1261072833 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better approach than ASCII art :P < 1261072859 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that should match the paste I posted < 1261072864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, sadly didn't have predefined connections and such for state machines < 1261072872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to do circle, arrow and text separately < 1261072886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of having it as a circle or arrow with special properties < 1261072903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you could use graphviz to auto generate from the code < 1261072915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably would require just a sed script < 1261072918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1261072922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be trivial in any case < 1261072927 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds neat, I'll check that out :D < 1261072938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, simple script to generate a .dot file for graphviz < 1261072952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if neato would be the best layout engine here < 1261072959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neato or fdp I suspect < 1261072961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than dot < 1261072991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or maybe not < 1261073011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they aren't well order in a hierarchy yeah < 1261073024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<FireFly> Better approach than ASCII art :P <-- yes. Mine is actually readable < 1261073056 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could read the ascii < 1261073112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to write a bipoint → graphviz converter and do it in a language that will be highly inconvenient for most people < 1261073124 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brb < 1261073132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe clisp < 1261073138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or prolog? < 1261073141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1261073142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261073147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang sounds good. < 1261073978 0 :ttthebest!n=theotime@AMontsouris-553-1-5-190.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261073984 0 :ttthebest!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261074644 0 :ttthebest!n=theotime@AMontsouris-553-1-5-190.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261074647 0 :ttthebest!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261074664 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.20.34.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261075247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261075613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, actually a 50 line bash script did the job < 1261075714 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261075802 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261076194 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261076194 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1261076470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, do you have any larger example program? < 1261076479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say 20-50 states or so < 1261076637 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, I'm afraid not < 1261076835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what chars are valid in state names? < 1261076846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just numbers? < 1261076851 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1261076878 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /\d+/, that'd be < 1261076888 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No negative numbers, no floats < 1261076903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you mean [:digit:]+ ? < 1261076912 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah, I guess < 1261076923 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except I prefer Perl-style regex < 1261076930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, is there an interpreter? < 1261076941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, go write one < 1261076943 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Categories: Languages | Unimplemented | 2009 | Unusable for programming | Stack-based | Unknown computational class | Low-level < 1261076953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, it should be trivial to implement. < 1261076959 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, it should < 1261076964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, I would recommend erlang < 1261076967 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't feel like doing it atm < 1261077065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what is the official file extension? < 1261077179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash < 1261077184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope that is interesting < 1261077201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, forgot to remove one unused variable there < 1261077210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 41 can be removed < 1261077298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, hope that is "useful" < 1261077304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone should add it to the wiki < 1261077330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would one add http://sprunge.us/bFYU?bash to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint < 1261077332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add or link that is < 1261077355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a permanently up website? < 1261077360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is a pastebin < 1261077361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add it with normal external link formatting < 1261077366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does it expire? < 1261077366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no idea if it will expire < 1261077373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: paste it in one that you know won't expire, then < 1261077376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no clue. And I don't have my own hosting any more < 1261077381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like pastebin.ca with expiry turned off < 1261077382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1261077394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text] < 1261077399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, another thing: does that count as an implementation? < 1261077404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it translates to graphviz < 1261077410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than runs it < 1261077411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, but it's stilly useful < 1261077413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*still < 1261077423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it will work fine in the external resources section < 1261077429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you can help me recover my wiki account password yes < 1261077436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no email and lost password < 1261077441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can't be recovered, then < 1261077443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't create new, recovery is only option < 1261077447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you're supposed to set the email < 1261077452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's the only way to recover < 1261077462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually I did set it. but the confirm thing didn't work < 1261077463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or you'll have to ask graue to change the stored email for you < 1261077467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I never got the confirm mail < 1261077469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ouch < 1261077477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so well it's fail < 1261077523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still. I should implement a "svg interpreter for this. So you have to do bipoint->graphviz->svg to interpret it < 1261077529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for the hilarity < 1261077532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sp?) < 1261077543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelt correctly < 1261077609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway. I strongly suspect that bipoint is exactly equivalent with a More automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol for each input symbol < 1261077627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about the bit that the initial state can't have output < 1261077633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all other must < 1261077643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly this imposes further restrictions < 1261077663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you think that last bit affects it? < 1261077728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, I haven't really thought of it < 1261077733 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh, laaaaaag < 1261077734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was busy doing something completely different < 1261077741 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, now I just got a wall of text < 1261077755 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, everything from [19:08:30]<AnMaster> FireFly, it should be trivial to implement. and below) < 1261077789 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, everything from [19:18:57]<AnMaster> FireFly, I would recommend erlang, rather < 1261077834 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it looks a bit interesting < 1261077868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's quite a wall < 1261077883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1261077903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> and the format for a link is [http://example.com/website link text] <-- I'm well aware of course < 1261077914 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab. getting some food < 1261077938 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diff AnMaster anmaster_l ? < 1261078575 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261078582 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer "RPG" games are not like proper role-playing-games, they are just called that because of based on some rules in D&D and stuff like that (although there is nothing wrong with that). Can you determine which category of computer games would be more like proper-role-playing-games? < 1261078883 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, some DSP, I think it should have Create Address Space command, to create interleaved address spaces? < 1261078887 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261079159 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261079197 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261079317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did that zzo-visit make sense to you? < 1261079322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly didn't to me < 1261079358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's two completely separate comments < 1261079363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what DSP is he referring to? < 1261079368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, brand/model < 1261079371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc they vary a lot < 1261079396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or is there some esolang called DSP? < 1261079453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's referring to digital signal processors in general < 1261079461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he's invented a command that would make them more useful < 1261079555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't see how interleaved address space would be so useful < 1261079580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it might be useful for some bit shuffling operations I guess < 1261079590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or byte shuffling < 1261079643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but something like a "shuffle vector" seems just as useful, like SSE4.something added) < 1261079689 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261081680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DSPs tend to have "strange" addressing modes in general; many have a bit-reversed addressing modes for doing FFT fast. < 1261081702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what sort of interleaving was meant there, though. < 1261081817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and modulo addressing, to implement circular buffers without any explicit checks. < 1261082486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, some cars got stuck in snow on a road I drove on just about 15 minutes before the incident < 1261082493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three cars in fact < 1261082501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was bad then but not nearly as bad < 1261082507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :location? < 1261082516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, Sweden < 1261082522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261082533 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably isn't as bad as it was here two weeks ago < 1261082545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to translate "halka" to English < 1261082557 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on < 1261082561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :halkiga vägar ~ slippery roads? < 1261082562 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was /really/ bad ice < 1261082562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1261082570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there was warning about extremely slippery roads < 1261082595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by SMHI. Which handles meteorology stuff in Sweden < 1261082602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sp?) < 1261082636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<coppro> first ice of the season = everyone gets caught with their summer tires on <-- that isn't legal to drive with during winter road conditions here < 1261082646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming it happens during winter < 1261082657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, should it snow in June or such, it would be legal < 1261082664 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261082668 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good law < 1261082686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :winter being classified as October-March or such iirc. IIRC it depends on where in Sweden < 1261082695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, people use the same tires whatever the weather < 1261082701 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-48-165.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261082702 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, said law does not exist here :( < 1261082703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on really snowy days, you can't drive anywhere as a result < 1261082714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but that is because 99% of the time it is just one weather: rain < 1261082730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rains less than half the time here < 1261082734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, more than most other places < 1261082742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm, it's slightly cloudy, for instance < 1261082746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was snowing earlier < 1261082922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl taking long exposure photo through window < 1261083012 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261083234 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261083339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261083403 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@d83-177-15-247.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261083546 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261083751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snowy here too. < 1261083785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not terribly surprising that there's weathery correlation between Sweden and Finland. < 1261083809 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently norway < 1261083830 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[09:59] <cadahl1> looks like you have some snow in norway too < 1261083836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't hugin do some sort of HDR image thing by combining images with different exposures? < 1261083903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think it can, but I don't know the details how to make it do that. < 1261083930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you just have to select the "merged and blended HDR panorama" output option. < 1261083971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah was looking right now < 1261084005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes a real HDR image; there's also the enfuse thing that can output a "normal" image using different exposure layers for different parts of the image, in a "sensible" way. < 1261084081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261084133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could try take some window-photography too, but I don't have a real tripod, just this mini-one, and no window ledges big enough for it, I think. I could go to the balcony, but it's far too cold for that. < 1261084150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I *do* have a real tripod :D < 1261084170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that I can actually make taller than me when all parts of it are fully extended < 1261084179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only slightly taller) < 1261084179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okolokopokolol < 1261084185 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you not here < 1261084186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah about 2 meter I think < 1261084187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're on skype < 1261084187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261084190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when fully extended < 1261084372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, I don't really hobbyize the photography thing. I'm not even quite sure where that mini-tripod is. < 1261084420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "hobbyize"? < 1261084447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though before I do anything I need to do something about the white balance < 1261084451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing I used raw format < 1261084547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay wtf < 1261084554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261084554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED! @ < 1261084554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261084557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my damn laptop < 1261084572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was sshing from desktop to laptop (was debugging why sshfs refused to work) < 1261084577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still what the hell < 1261084991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs, seems wrong icc profile was used < 1261085106 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261085229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, before getting to somewhere where I can actually stitch it together it takes a while < 1261085271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and ffs @ gimp failing to handle 16 bit per channels < 1261085336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly. < 1261085601 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mini-tripod held by pushing it against the window and eight-second exposure nets you a horribly crappy image, but at least you can see some snow in it: http://zem.fi/~fis/night2.jpg < 1261085610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not even that much snow ehre, I don't know why I bothered. < 1261085623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Wasn't it supposed to do that nowadays? At least rudimentarily. Though I might remember wrongly. <-- yes this was on jaunty however < 1261085629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, slightly outdated < 1261085633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well no < 1261085638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is supposed to do it soon < 1261085646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts do support it now < 1261085663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 8 seconds only? < 1261085665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1261085674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm merging 10,12,14 < 1261085687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your is blurry < 1261085693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you scaled that down right? < 1261085696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the native res < 1261085715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261085739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also had some reflectiony problems. And cat problems. < 1261085815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 seconds on f/2.8 and ISO 100, to be exact. But the "keep pressing the mini-tripod against the window and try not to move" wasn't the stablest setup ever. < 1261085861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the automagic orientation-sensor handled an upside-down image correctly. I'm not sure how common case that is. < 1261085963 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For comparison, this was taken with the phone yesterday-morning at work: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8536-1/20091216_002.jpg -- but it's been snowing somewhat steadily since then. (The picture was mostly about testing whether the gallery thing I use shows the GPS geotags somewhere. It doesn't.) < 1261086443 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-116.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261086736 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261086736 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1261088928 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261089332 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261089361 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437565.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261090621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there still? < 1261090631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm now blending the final image < 1261090637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preview looked nice < 1261090653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how large image file are you prepared to download and view? < 1261090664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess 150 MB is way out of question < 1261090678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, make that 250 < 1261090743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Have you blended it into some non-HDR format or what? < 1261090756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lossy compression would be nice anyway. < 1261090802 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of images, the snowfall here was pretty abrupt; last weekend it still looked like http://zem.fi/g2/v/Mobile/20091212/20091212_013.jpg.html < 1261090807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, deflate TIFF. 16 bits per channel < 1261090810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDR would be WAY larger < 1261090852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and that is enfuse, not HDR < 1261090869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a 16-bits-per-channel display, and am not interested in manipulating the image, so why can't you just do a normal 8-bit-channel JPEG out of it for viewing? < 1261090881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I will < 1261091050 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Away for some 15 minutes now.) < 1261091385 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261091409 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261091421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc (time travel) < 1261091468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats AnMaster back into the past -----### < 1261091477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err, future < 1261091485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already read iwc tomorrow < 1261091491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it was definitely the past when ... oh < 1261091514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well don't remind me, we don't want any time paradoxes < 1261091535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, now I have to murder my own grandfather. However he is already dead. In fact he died before I was born. < 1261091543 0 :fizzien900!n=user@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261091548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but not before my father was born) < 1261091562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1261091564 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, freenode problemsies, I guess. < 1261091589 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261091612 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that was fast. < 1261091629 0 :fizzien900!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261091642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: < 1261091651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://omploader.org/vMzBxbQ/winter_2009-12-17_small.jpg < 1261091698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no what you need to do is go back to the cretacious and stomp on a butterfly. that's traditional. < 1261091709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you may want to see that too < 1261091723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cretaceous < 1261091729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I guess it looks like that in Norway too? < 1261091740 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are those dots on the left side, about two thirds down from the top? A lamp highlighting falling snow or what? < 1261091770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think it is a combination of falling snow, lamps and reflections < 1261091772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, we have had extremely little snow this autumn so far < 1261091785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some forecast tomorrow or so, i think < 1261091788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, there's some sort of ghost-image of that second-floor-window window decoration thing. < 1261091801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sadly the exposure is too long to see the actual falling snow < 1261091802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite cold today, though < 1261091805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reflections, then, maybe. < 1261091807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I noticed < 1261091838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be interesting to see one of those tone-mapped HDR images out of that scene; they always look so unrealistic, yet funky. < 1261091857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is contrast blended < 1261091873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also: how do you do tone mapped HDR images? < 1261091907 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea; there are probably several specialist tools for it. < 1261091960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant, surely hugin can do it? < 1261091967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that. < 1261091990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once it's outputted a real HDR image, it's sort of not related to the panorama-tools tasks Hugin is made for. < 1261091997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261091998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping -- lists a couple of tools in the "External links" section. < 1261092020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I could send you the original raw images if you want to play around with it < 1261092030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I guess your camera can't do bracketed exposures? < 1261092045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can, though with a reasonably limited ranges. < 1261092061 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it was -2EV, 0, +2EV at the maximum spread, and no way of taking more than three images. < 1261092100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, with a tripod you could manually do more, and use hugin to stich together them panoramawise. < 1261092143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took one panorama image as three enfused layers like that, though it didn't turn out that great. Possibly because of the camera movements between shots; still no tripod here. < 1261092144 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261092198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well there is http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/enfuse-360/en.shtml < 1261092202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite useful to me < 1261092263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it was even worse than I remembered; it's just +-1 EV max for auto-bracketing. < 1261092324 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to get a real tripod, because then I'd have to get a real camera too, and I don't want to go that route; I'll just leave aghhh cat get out of there. < 1261092333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, saying that last part to IRC doesn't really work. < 1261092352 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get a cheap tripod < 1261092355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leave photography to photographers, I was going to say. < 1261092364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheap tripods are like $20 < 1261092367 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and very light < 1261092382 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're not something a real photographer would ever use :) < 1261092451 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, apparently so; the local computers-and-other-stuff store has some sort of max-height-1.15-meters weighs-less-than-a-kilo tripod for 22.90 eur. < 1261092473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Slik U2000" tripod; even the name says "classy" right there. < 1261092528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.15? < 1261092530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's useless < 1261092541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 m is about nice as max height < 1261092564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not looking for a real tripod here, you see. < 1261092580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's useless, it doesn't matter that the camera's useless too. < 1261092590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current one has a height of about 0.15 m. < 1261092647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what sort of camera is it? < 1261092665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicFZ8/ < 1261092685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did your tripod come with a special bag for carrying it in? < 1261092685 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not THAT bad. < 1261092698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lot smaller than what the photos make it look like. < 1261092704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it came. < 1261092705 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261092708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it did, I've misplaced it. < 1261092719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some trouble locating the tripod itself, to be honest. < 1261092727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261092734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for the brand of his < 1261092745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manfrotto < 1261092745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261092755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to be able to locate model number < 1261092794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mooz has a neato Manfrotto panorama head; the thing you mount on a tripod so that the camera can be rotated the "correct" way, and you don't need to do much image-processing in the stitching phase. Well, after you've calibrated the thing for the particular lens and other settings, I guess. < 1261092862 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261092928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To partially eat and regurgitate my previous words; the DMC-FZ8 is a reasonably nice camera for the class it's in; it's just that the tiny little sensors they use in the non-DSLR-style cameras have some physical limitations as to what can be done with them. < 1261092936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also it is quite short when the telescopic things are in smallest position. Around 40 cm or so I guess < 1261093034 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The amazing Slik U2000 is 48 cm when in the carrying-around mode. (I guess that's the total length, not height-from-base-when-the-three-legs-are-spread-out-and-in-the-shortest-position. < 1261093212 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seem to be a metric gazillion of other various cheapo-tripods from a manufacturer called "Velbon". Those at least look a tiny bit less silly. (For example the counterpart to the Slik U2000, the Velbon DF-40/F -- see, even the name is more impressive by far -- costs 4 euros more, but the height range is 0.51-1.45 m. And it's black, not shiny-aluminum. See, these are the *important* points here; name and colour.) < 1261093293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1261093539 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: unfortunately, the most important thing about tripods is weight :) < 1261093557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More or less is better, though? < 1261093563 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more is better. < 1261093569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real tripods are heavy. < 1261093583 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no other way to ensure stability. < 1261093588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, well, that weighs a hundred grams more than the Slik, too! < 1261093600 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also means it's heavier :) < 1261093611 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real tripods are a pain to carry < 1261093629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, agreed < 1261093644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, you just have to spend even more money to hire a tripod-carrying slave too, I guess. < 1261093647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, also you can ensure stability with wide enough apart legs < 1261093656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory < 1261093667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be incredibly awkward < 1261093672 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose < 1261093707 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also tie a sandbag to the middle tube < 1261093710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can ensure stability by building a brick-and-mortar wall to put your camera on wherever you need it. Though I guess the building materials have a bit of a weight problem. Among other (problems). < 1261093779 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to find some picturesque-enough spot so that I could take a set of night-, morning-, day- and evening-panoramas (for the full 360° circle) from the same point, align the images, then blend out of them a "looping" 3200x480 image so that each 800x480 quadrant has a specific theme, yet they still blend sort-of seamlessly together. < 1261093789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I need a picture like that for the N900 desktop background.) < 1261093930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 480 pixels high? < 1261093933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this? < 1261093939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mobile camera? < 1261093945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, mobile phoe < 1261093947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phone* < 1261093985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the screen size of the phone; the background sort of has to be that height. Of course the actual photos can be larger. < 1261094015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually I think I'd like a winter/spring/summer/autumn panorama set from a same point more, but taking that would take, well, almost a year, by definition.) < 1261094094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sun moon stars rain < 1261094221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, by taking the whole panorama each day you could make the blending really seamless! < 1261094241 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the weather never changes! < 1261094284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well duh he would have to select good ones from it < 1261094296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also after a few years you should have good versions of all < 1261094311 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a few centuries it will start to look really awesome < 1261094325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, indeed! < 1261094369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts this on his todo list under the heading "if I ever become immortal and is bored" < 1261094399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1261094431 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261094531 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1261094755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You still here? < 1261094860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well anyway, you probably also got the message from MKRY so could you forward it to me, I think thunderbird ate it as I was drag-and-dropping it < 1261094864 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261097011 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242437565.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261098136 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261099759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1261099826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's D&D 350, don't forget the new alternative version < 1261099873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for quicker access without spoiling, the previous one was http://www.darthsanddroids.net/sandalsandspartans/0050.html) < 1261099952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that page has also changed, as usual when a new one arrives) < 1261100645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what < 1261100650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are _two_? < 1261100788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it seems like this is true: < 1261100802 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practice turns something overwhelming into something not overwhelming. It does not turn something tedious into something not tedious. < 1261100819 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arithmetic is tedious. How can we make it overwhelming instead so that we can practice until it's neither? < 1261103019 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261103843 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261106684 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261106977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1261107073 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261107951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261108240 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261108447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261108996 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261109179 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261113907 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261114069 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261114126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261114841 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1261115856 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261115890 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261117101 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261117108 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ehirderic < 1261117421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261117468 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261117476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261117788 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261118034 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261119283 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261119307 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261119674 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261121495 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261122231 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261123199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261123200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261124599 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261124712 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261124865 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261125570 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261125611 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261125708 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]" < 1261126751 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1261127948 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-164-32-147.range86-164.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261130126 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261131518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Deewiant> AnMaster: Well anyway, you probably also got the message from MKRY so could you forward it to me, I think thunderbird ate it as I was drag-and-dropping it <-- *checks mail* < 1261131578 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@d83-177-15-247.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261132028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oerjan> AnMaster: it's D&D 350, don't forget the new alternative version <-- ?? < 1261132051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oerjan> (for quicker access without spoiling, the previous one was http://www.darthsanddroids.net/sandalsandspartans/0050.html) <-- ooh they updated it again. < 1261134060 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261134105 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261134352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Did ya get it? < 1261134368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm yes < 1261134388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, *looks for Deewiant email* < 1261134403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is in the header duh < 1261134425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can you handle PGP/MIME? < 1261134438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261134441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261134476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1261134485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheers < 1261134564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, got it? < 1261134567 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261134574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this means mirroring his site I guess < 1261134578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the fingerprint specs < 1261134588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least a local copy < 1261134635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt anybody'll be interested in actually "taking over" and continuing work on it, but yeah, mirroring it can certainly be done < 1261134681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, at least if it goes away it will be useful to have the fingerprint specs around < 1261134688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what does he mean not being around much longer < 1261134691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cancer? < 1261134696 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would I know? < 1261134702 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He certainly suggests he's dying < 1261134718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, we all are. At some point < 1261134737 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's suggesting "now" not "at some point" < 1261134775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, could be "out of job so can't pay internet bills" or such < 1261134812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me and I don't really care < 1261134814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe it would be a good idea to send a mail saying that one feels sorry for him or something < 1261134816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask him if you're interested < 1261134824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261134875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget --mirror http://www.rcfunge98.com/ < 1261134877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was quick < 1261134895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just 765K heh < 1261135283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Speaking of photography efforts, here's the view from the window next to my office, with the N900 camera in the full-auto mode (it's not like it has very many settings anyway, though I certainly could've fixed the white balance at least) and hugin+enfuse with absolutely no tweaking (had to use it with X11 forwarding over ADSL, not such a pleasant experience): http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg < 1261135314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, tried firefox with X11 forwarding over ADSL? < 1261135315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have < 1261135320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, many times. < 1261135329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not pleasant either < 1261135358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, is that image HDR you said? < 1261135416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with just enblending them together (with the default exposure optimization) I got http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk.jpg -- doing the fused-and-blended option results in the a-lot-better tkk2.jpg. < 1261135469 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant probably recognizes the place, too. < 1261135482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye < 1261135676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk.jpg looks like the snow is contaminated with neon lights or something < 1261135692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amongst other issues < 1261135806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Well, there *is* quite a large variance in the lightness levels of the sky/sunshine parts and the shadowed-by-the-building ground. < 1261135828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes indeed, and 8 bits isn't enough to represent this properly < 1261135849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which is why the trees look like they do in ttk.jph < 1261135850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jpg* < 1261135867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, posturising (sp?) < 1261135910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The phone has a fixed-aperture f/2.8 lens and you can't set the shutter speed manually. (Well, you *can* in a technical sense, it's certainly programmable, but not in the camera application.) The "exposure" setting dialog just lets you add a -2 .. +2EV offset to whatever the automatics suggest. < 1261135929 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed aperature? < 1261135932 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1261135987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a *phone*, not a camera. Most phones have a fixed-aperture lens. Though there are some exceptions. (The N86, or so I hear. And presumably those which stick 8- or 10-meggopixel sensors in there.) < 1261136036 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record, the shutter speed in source images varies from 1/1000 to 1/100 seconds. < 1261136050 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 megapixels isn't everything < 1261136066 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly suspect they will get worse images than my 9 megapixel minolta < 1261136109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but one would hope that they pay attention to other parts of the camera too, if they bother increasing the resolution. (Admittedly it might also be just mostly a marketing trick.) < 1261136123 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261136164 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, shutter speed for images I took is reported in exif as 6, 8, 15 < 1261136213 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's in milliseconds, but I'm not sure. The ExposureTime field is in seconds, if your camera adds that. < 1261136233 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, exposure time is 6, 8, 15 < 1261136236 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same in other words < 1261136240 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. < 1261136259 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe it's either unstandardized, or your viewer converts them to the same units. < 1261136265 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was using exiftool < 1261136266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or were those the long-exposure shots? < 1261136304 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was using "exiv2 -p v print" because they haven't installed exiftool on these work-Ubuntus. < 1261136310 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? well I used "automatic bracketing" + manual setting to 8 seconds (forgot what I set the aperture to) < 1261136342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's directly converted in seconds then. < 1261136391 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm with exiv2 I get these strange lines: < 1261136395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PICT1260.tif 0x829a Photo ExposureTime Rational 1 80/10 < 1261136401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PICT1261.tif 0x829a Photo ExposureTime Rational 1 60/10 < 1261136404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PICT1262.tif 0x829a Photo ExposureTime Rational 1 150/10 < 1261136420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess it is; seen with exiftool, those N900 images also show the same units for "Shutter Speed" and "Exposure Time". < 1261136422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no shutter thing there when I grep < 1261136444 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Image metadata is a strange, unstandardized and messy world. < 1261136457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, exiftool *did* report shutter speed < 1261136479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be deducing it from the Exposure Time field, because they're the same. < 1261136480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, of course it is possible ufraw messed it up somehow < 1261136509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use "exiftool -e" to make it report only things it finds from the image. < 1261136525 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without the "composite" values it knows how to compute from multiple sources. < 1261136549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nop, not in the *.thm or *.mrw files either (one is a tiny jpeg preview the other the raw file, no idea why the camerate generates those *.thm files) < 1261136580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that ExposureTime tag should (if I have understood it right) be in seconds always; 80/10 = 8 seconds sounds reasonable. < 1261136580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no shutter speed then < 1261136608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so how does that store 1/1000 or such? < 1261136618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably as 1/1000. < 1261136629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Max Aperture Value : 3.5 < 1261136630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Max Aperture : inf < 1261136633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is interesting < 1261136637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the inf there mean < 1261136660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait, is it stored as a fraction rather than a float? < 1261136663 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261136675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1261136682 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A binary float wouldn't represent most of the available speeds exactly anyway. < 1261136692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Rational" there is the field type. < 1261136694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ exiftool -e PICT1260.tif | wc -l < 1261136695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98 < 1261136696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a lot < 1261136707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the base image (middle of bracketing) < 1261136712 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261136730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without -e I get 109 lines instead < 1261136734 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This N900 file also has "Exposure Time" of 1/500 and a strange "Shutter Speed Value" of 1/256. < 1261136748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the .MRW I get 101 lines with -e < 1261136751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 114 without < 1261136756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ufraw dropped something < 1261136799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what exiftool reports as "Shutter Speed Value: 1/256", exiv2 instead reports as ShutterSpeedValue of type SRational (signed fraction?) of 8/1, so... < 1261136820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://sprunge.us/HYQP?diff < 1261136828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from < 1261136830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diff -Naur <(exiftool -e PICT1260.MRW | sort -n) <(exiftool -e PICT1260.tif | sort -n) < 1261136914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the changes make sense (Bayer Pattern doesn't make much sense except for the raw image), but it's a bit strange that Bracket Step goes from 2/3 EV to "Unknown (4266731520)". < 1261136929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well so does color mode < 1261136932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other things < 1261136937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is "Bayer Pattern" btw? < 1261136953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pixel arrangement on the sensor. < 1261136955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261136970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and the brightness thing too < 1261136988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a rectangular grid, usually they put for each 2x2 square R and B on the corners, and two Gs on the cross-diagonal, so to say. < 1261137008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, why more green? < 1261137029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had something to do with the luminosity of it, but I don't remember the details. < 1261137040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some cameras add a fourth-color sensor there. Red-green-blue-"emerald" was I think some marketing term. < 1261137050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh see there: exif byte order changed < 1261137055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from big endian to little endian < 1261137057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGBE_filter < 1261137063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it failed to byteswap some stuff < 1261137074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if that would result in sensible values < 1261137096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible it didn't byteswap values it didn't understand. < 1261137121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm pretty sure they call that fourth color "emerald" instead of "cyan" because it sounds a lot more blingy. < 1261137158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"twice as many green elements as red or blue to mimic the human eye's greater resolving power with green light[citation needed]" < 1261137175 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261137245 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261137298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :120 -Minolta Time : 22:39:39 < 1261137298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :121 +Minolta Time : 52224:42:00 < 1261137339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do I dump the raw integer value for a given exif tag? < 1261137466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and their data types < 1261137506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"exiv2 -p h print file.jpg" might work. < 1261137516 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It hexdumps the tag data values under the normal output. < 1261137535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to tease that info out from exiftool, if it's even possible. < 1261137606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that skips some tags < 1261137949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah some of those values are in "---- MakerNotes ----" when you use -g to exiftool < 1261137958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which exiv2 doesn't seem to understand < 1261137962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus ignores < 1261137981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PICT1258.MRW 0x927c Photo MakerNote Undefined 38270 (Binary value suppressed) < 1261137988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the messed up values seems to be there < 1261138030 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay, Well, those are even more nonstandard. < 1261138042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or at least the majority of the messed up values < 1261138082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it failed to byteswap it hm < 1261138108 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be quite much to ask, to be able to byteswap all the possible MakerNotes structures. < 1261138144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exiftool can't read the N900 MakerNote tag at all. "Warning: [minor] Unrecognized MakerNotes" < 1261138152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it *could* keep the byte order < 1261138154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be easier < 1261138163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use whatever the file already had < 1261138169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if tiff allows big endian exif < 1261138300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The N900 MakerNote is exactly 4 kilobytes long, and seems (from a cursory look-through) completely random, except for some bias for smallish byte values in the first 16 bytes or so. I wonder what they've put there. < 1261138468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261138478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, google? < 1261138495 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Maker Note contains some information about the parameters but it is encrypted and encoded and currently algorithm for decoding it is not public." < 1261138516 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(From the Maemo forums.) < 1261138833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> That would be quite much to ask, to be able to byteswap all the possible MakerNotes structures. <-- considering that it needs to understand the specific raw format already to be able to convert it... < 1261138986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, there is that. Still, some more extra work. But not byte-swapping the tags at all sounds sensible; then it's the reader's problem to understand it. < 1261139074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can fix it with exiftool though < 1261139083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exiftool -tagsfromfile PICT1260.MRW '-makernotes:all' PICT1260.tif < 1261139084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1261139845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw in http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg there is something strange going on in the upper part < 1261139851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :broken border < 1261139866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I suspect you need more control points there < 1261139904 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261139906 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1261140182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What's going on is probably just parallax movement caused by the phone moving around, and I'm not quite sure it's perfectly fixable without getting the actual meaningful content out of line a bit. Maybe if I added some lenses in hugin so that it could optimize per-image x- and y- displacements, but I doubt I'd bother. Certainly not with the X-forwarding. < 1261140219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I managed to fix up parallax by adding more control points where it was noticable < 1261140233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was on some landscape picture from Lappland < 1261140239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I showed it to you < 1261140247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find the file atm < 1261140250 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to try manual control point editing with this setup, anyway. Maybe at home. < 1261140261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how did you add control points then? < 1261140286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autopano-sift-C or whatever it's called, I forget exactly. < 1261140293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. the auto adding never worked well for me < 1261140315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, birds in sky being selected and as they moved between the pictures: result was disaster < 1261140329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that always happened to me < 1261140360 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It creates quite many of messed-up control points, but on average most of them tend to be good. At least when there's not *that* much moving stuff. < 1261140380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well it tends to be easy to add manual good ones in my experience < 1261140405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not easy if window-redrawing when you click on anything takes a minute or two. < 1261140409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and once you have three or so it manages to auto suggest the correct placement of more manual ones quite well < 1261140430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But sure, I did manual control point placement for those vacation photo panoramas too. < 1261140473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you often seem to need to add exactly one horizontal and one vertical line to get a plausible orientation on the output image < 1261140490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I had to on this HDR image < 1261140496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they weren't really much off < 1261140513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc hugin calculated that on average the difference between them was 1-2 pixels < 1261140530 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That tkk2.jpg is a bit tilted. < 1261140542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it's fish-eye too, no? < 1261140596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also vertical/horizontal is added by selecting same picture for left/right and then adding a pair of point that are not in the same place but rather along the same vertical or horizontal line < 1261140606 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1261140610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah < 1261140611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah* < 1261140833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw krita seems to manage 16 bits per channel < 1261140954 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-1-142.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261141052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done the horizontal/vertical-line trickery for perspective-correcting some "took a picture of a floor mosaic at an oblique angle" pictures; there's a tutorial about it. < 1261141167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261141202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if you just use one vertical and one horizontal line it seems to result in rotational fix only, rather than perspective correction as well < 1261141216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I guess if they are at a 90 degree angle to each other < 1261141245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact a single vertical line was enough in that photo from yesterday < 1261141265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along the pole (or whatever it is called) of the central street light < 1261141323 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so; I added multiple in the perspective-correction ones. < 1261141411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/g2/d/7368-2/p1030278.jpg -> http://zem.fi/g2/d/7733-2/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg < 1261141527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261141537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, looks worse at the top though < 1261141558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, possibly taking one from the opposite direction and stitching them together would have helped < 1261141565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure even hugin can handle that though < 1261141588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly, but you couldn't go there. The picture was taken through the bars of a steel gate. < 1261141594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261141609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, isn't there asphalt at the other end? < 1261141635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, possibly you could have gone around? < 1261141639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or maybe not) < 1261141659 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like asphalt, but I really don't think it's that. It's from Pompeii. < 1261141665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1261141680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, very low res pic that original < 1261141685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you scaled it down afterwards < 1261141686 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a chance we can get back on esolangous topics? < 1261141689 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what happened to fungot? < 1261141704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah where is fungot? < 1261141713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, esoteric photos? < 1261141733 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261141737 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric languages < 1261141742 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the fact i am concepting one < 1261141749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe one could write a language based on HDR merging images < 1261141754 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261141770 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like < 1261141779 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes 3 numbers < 1261141793 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and combines them < 1261141794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You'll be wanting http://zem.fi/g2/d/7367-1/p1030278.jpg and http://zem.fi/g2/d/7732-1/mosaic-2-perspective.jpg for the unscaled images; I was just thinking of my poor ADSL line there. :p < 1261141798 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in HDRish ways < 1261141806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, 3 or more < 1261141811 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yeah < 1261141817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2 would work < 1261141831 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261141848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, I'm not sure how to make this an interesting esolang though < 1261141861 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It won't be turing complete i think < 1261141863 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would it be < 1261141869 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can increase a number by 1 < 1261141871 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sure < 1261141874 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1261141905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, well I can't think of a way to do computation in it < 1261141916 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to make an esolang related to paper cards < 1261141922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh idea (related: panorama) < 1261141922 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably one that runs with hardware < 1261141933 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261141938 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can use actual paper tape with it < 1261141939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, think of a 2D language stored in image < 1261141941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several < 1261141946 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Piet! < 1261141953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then store it as one of those weird panorma projections < 1261141957 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unable to connect" says fungot. I guess orwell.freenode.net is down. < 1261141965 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDoS, hello < 1261141968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, don't you use the round robin? < 1261141974 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am on vere < 1261141976 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verne* < 1261141987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I want a geographical neighbour, not some random round-robin server. < 1261142001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, use equvirectangual(sp?) projection < 1261142005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make it wrap around < 1261142013 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261142021 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah im not making a hdr language < 1261142030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, this was panorama < 1261142034 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or panorama < 1261142034 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Besides, the round-robin is DNS-based, and fungot only accepts IP numbers. (Since I was trying to get by with just SOCK.) < 1261142035 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not images < 1261142041 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Verne? < 1261142042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1261142052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so change the file to use another server < 1261142077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it'll be back. But I guess I could do a temporary change. < 1261142089 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, i wanted to do this < 1261142094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, perspective correction makes the image lose some of the sharpness sadly < 1261142098 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[mempointer] <- [some sort of calculation] < 1261142099 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1261142102 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 <- +1 < 1261142104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's unavoidable of course < 1261142109 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would add 1 to mempointer 0 < 1261142123 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also do < 1261142129 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[mempointer] -> [mempointer/special] < 1261142132 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1261142133 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> IP < 1261142135 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261142136 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> 1 < 1261142142 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my idea < 1261142144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think allowing tilting ccd in the camera directly (relative the lens) would allow some sharp perspective correction < 1261142145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1261142161 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it good < 1261142175 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to output you can do < 1261142177 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> stdout < 1261142179 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> stderr < 1261142189 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to input there's "0 <- stdin" < 1261142196 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261142235 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... guess it should be possible, yes. Not sure if the lens imperfections get worse that way, though. Maybe not by much. < 1261142263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, why not prove if http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bipoint is equivalent of a Moore automaton with input and output alphabet {0,1} and that can only output one symbol at a time? < 1261142267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is < 1261142277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some further restrictions on the langauge: < 1261142291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all state except the starting state *must* produce output < 1261142302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the start state *can't* produce output < 1261142321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure if they matter for computational class < 1261142324 0 :omg!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261142328 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, my firewall rules from the fungot server prohibit IRC connections in general, except to that one freenode server. (You can never be too careful!) < 1261142335 0 :omg!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261142341 0 :asiekierka2!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261142352 0 :asiekierka2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1261142355 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261142368 0 :asiekierka2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1261142373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, would you say this looks like a painting or a photo? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Hdr-Ithacafalls2.jpg < 1261142402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, did you see what I said above about Bipoint? < 1261142412 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> the start state *can't* produce output - up to this < 1261142421 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still don't get what a Moore automation is < 1261142421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, ah there was one more line: < 1261142423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> and I'm not sure if they matter for computational class < 1261142426 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261142431 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261142433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, a Moore automaton is one class of a FSM < 1261142442 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMPUTATIONAL CLASS means COMPUTING < 1261142452 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need output or input to COMPUTE < 1261142452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore_machine < 1261142470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, well in fact you do here, since you only have a state, no other memory < 1261142491 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka you don't? < 1261142499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It looks unreal, at the very least. But funky. < 1261142519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, and the state changes exactly once per input symbokl < 1261142521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbol* < 1261142531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I think asiekierka is thinking of brainfuck style IO. < 1261142536 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261142538 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was < 1261142539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the IO is indeed not needed < 1261142550 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i am not the guy to prove stuff < 1261142550 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261142552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the IO is rather different for a state machine < 1261142630 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i am unable to do stuff like this < 1261142663 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am still wondering < 1261142668 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was any esolang done with TTL chips < 1261142670 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or stuff like it < 1261142700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, I can't see why you couldn't implement it with TTL < 1261142709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selecting a suitable one < 1261142715 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainf**k? < 1261142723 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that could go < 1261142727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no expert on TTL < 1261142729 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261142734 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's chips that do various simple stuff < 1261142740 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :74xx's < 1261142743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably go for a simpler state machine < 1261142806 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what? < 1261142807 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bipoit? < 1261142809 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bipoint* < 1261142823 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261142829 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's that guy who made a machine with GFX < 1261142829 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VGA < 1261142832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly. As I said: no expert on TTL or any other such hardware < 1261142833 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 6502-inspired CPU < 1261142838 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONLY with TTL's < 1261142856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I read about that yes < 1261142861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :winding wires? < 1261142892 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1261142896 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was BMOW < 1261142898 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big Mess O' Wires < 1261142910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got a link to it? < 1261142931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, winding wires around metal rods, rather than soldering < 1261142933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I meant < 1261142936 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261142938 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261142940 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dun liek soldering < 1261142943 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stevechamberlin.com/cpu/about/ < 1261143004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, ah I was thinking about http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ < 1261143115 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1261143202 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261143236 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261143251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261143277 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261143690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261143715 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261143894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ho-hum, exported a slide containing a spreadsheet object, from an OpenOffice Impress presentation, as a PDF file. The labels are all right, but I have a small suspicion there's something wrong with the numbers: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/numb3rs.png < 1261143982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're still the correct numbers, but for some reason the digits have changed to the arabic-indic ones. < 1261144385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1261144389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's a very strange error < 1261144391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, tell me if you find the cause < 1261144524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed the font used in the tables from Liberation Sans (which was the default) to Bitstream Vera Sans, and the problem disappeared. Who knows. < 1261144585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The slide is supposed to be merged as a part of a real MS-PowerPoint presentation, I'm not very confident the OLE-embedded spreadsheet object will survive that. I sent it as .odp, .ppt and .pdf in the hopes that at least one of them is usable. < 1261144676 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261147163 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261149005 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261149746 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"reboot" < 1261151104 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-116.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261151891 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261152387 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1261152391 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm planning out a language < 1261152397 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just... i'm not sure if i'm doing it good < 1261152406 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esolang is planned out a lot < 1261152437 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a REAL esolang < 1261152476 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1261152480 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261152483 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make a long story short < 1261152492 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have 2 general kinds of commands < 1261152504 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[mempointer] <- [math operation, like "+1" or "*42"] < 1261152511 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[mempointer] -> [mempointer/special] < 1261152514 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jus sounds like assembly < 1261152517 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not eso at all is it? < 1261152523 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1261152524 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this < 1261152529 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is something like < 1261152532 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 <- +3" < 1261152533 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly < 1261152540 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lookrs like it to me < 1261152546 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembly is this < 1261152551 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MOV 0, 0+3" < 1261152558 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah I see the difference < 1261152561 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1261152564 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do input/output < 1261152565 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you write MOV instead of <- < 1261152573 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do < 1261152579 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 <- stdin" < 1261152580 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261152583 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 -> stdout" < 1261152586 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 being the memory address < 1261152597 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to access memory inside of a math operation, you have to use $, as in "$0" < 1261152613 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions are lowercase letters < 1261152615 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to define a function you do < 1261152642 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[function name] <- [start line,end line,params] < 1261152663 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, a function which starts on line 3 and ends on line 5 inclusive, with 1 param you do < 1261152669 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a <- [3,5,1] < 1261152693 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the function, values @A to @Z are params or temp values < 1261152701 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise they return 0 < 1261152713 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To jump you need to make an uppercase JUMP DESCRIPTOR < 1261152718 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A <- +1 < 1261152730 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this defines a jump descriptor "A" which jumps to the next line if called < 1261152740 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To call it, you do < 1261152760 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> A(>x|=x|<>x|<x|al|ne) < 1261152790 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 0 is greater than(>)/equal to(=)/inequal to(<>)/less than(<) x, it jumps to where jump descriptor A points < 1261152799 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :al stands for always, ne stands for never < 1261152808 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else you need? < 1261152871 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for example to make a loop that decreases cell 0 until it's zero, you do < 1261152876 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A <- +1 < 1261152879 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 <- -1 < 1261152883 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> A(>0) < 1261152898 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you could just do "0 <- $0", but... yeah. < 1261153088 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster? Anyone? < 1261153346 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like assembly < 1261153447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar to asm in some aspects yes, different notation though < 1261154020 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what aspects < 1261154021 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1261154027 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1261154034 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasted 30 minutes designing that < 1261154331 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-116.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261154340 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261154349 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1261154621 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not enough time < 1261155086 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-172-4-177.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261155568 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Pong timeout: 180 seconds" < 1261155962 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261159561 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-1-142.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261159587 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261159609 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1261159849 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261160458 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261160493 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261160936 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261160983 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261161444 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-40-243.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261161557 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261162351 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261162355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261162427 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261162477 0 :tt!n=theotime@AMontsouris-553-1-5-190.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261162483 0 :tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261162830 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261164810 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261167060 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261170491 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261171386 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261173895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261173931 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261173995 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261174651 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261175371 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261175409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, trying yet another usage for hugin: noise reduction. < 1261175425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while still keeping image sharp < 1261175689 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261175689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261175690 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261175690 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261175690 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261175690 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261175717 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261175727 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261175762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my new favorite quote: "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." < 1261175790 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not nice < 1261175816 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :richard dawkins .. fail < 1261175839 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1261175912 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261175949 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261175975 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that wasn't richard dawkins?? < 1261176050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261176059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was dawkins quoting an editor from new scientist < 1261176086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, who the fuck are you < 1261176088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtfo :| < 1261176103 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : augur!*@* added to ignore list. < 1261176224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wut < 1261176227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##physics? < 1261176235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :word < 1261176261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, soupdragon == fax < 1261176265 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who < 1261176274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, he has been in here a bit < 1261176280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1261176448 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, he seems to be one of the annoying people who not only use ignore functions but loudly announce it too < 1261176451 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is p. awful < 1261176499 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p. ? < 1261176513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty < 1261176521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like q. quite and v. very < 1261176801 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261176842 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing < 1261176849 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1261176855 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> p. ? < 1261176861 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tell him i answered already, pthing < 1261176867 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur already explained < 1261176871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1261176897 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, why are you making such a big deal out of this < 1261176897 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261176901 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what < 1261176902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA < 1261176915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY SO SRIUS < 1261176919 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, I only asked that to make it obvious that it's you making a big deal out of this -- because I already know why < 1261176935 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good < 1261176940 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as everything's clear < 1261176975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLEAR LIKE AN ALDEBEREN HOUND < 1261176984 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Pthing> on the other hand, he seems to be one of the annoying people who not only use ignore functions but loudly announce it too ↠indeed < 1261177013 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l, < 1261177015 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> Pthing it's not like I made a big deal of it - I just told him because I wanted him to get that he was being an asshole and seems mean to let him talk and talk to me if I am not listening < 1261177015 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Pthing> big enough of a deal to send a PM! < 1261177015 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> Pthing also you're saying this like it's something I've done before... but don't think I have? < 1261177015 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> you brought it up again like it bothered you < 1261177017 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Pthing> ffff < 1261177019 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> if you just said nothing I don't think I would have either < 1261177029 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm glad this isn't a big deal < 1261177038 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l, since you seem to care about it so much too -- I would have just stopped talking about it if you lot were goading me about it again and again < 1261177044 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs. calm down everyone < 1261177055 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to get involved in this fight < 1261177070 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l, then why are you going "↠indeed"? < 1261177080 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l, seems to me like you /are/ < 1261177085 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :italics < 1261177091 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are forbidden by the geneva convention < 1261177093 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l, the alternative would have been not say anything < 1261177101 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing, err are // around forbidden? That is what I saw? < 1261177107 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems kinda blatantly obvious to me < 1261177148 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, You are confusing two things 1) I agreed with the comment I responded with "indeed" to. 2) I was not about to get involved in the "big deal" discussion. < 1261177869 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261177893 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261178471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay networking over firewire is fun < 1261180244 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261182264 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261182307 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261182324 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261184421 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1261184548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm where is fizzie? < 1261184724 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261185186 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261185810 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261185814 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261186134 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261186902 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261186932 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-116.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261187244 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261187244 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1261187356 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261188287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261188406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261189314 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261190822 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261190859 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261191202 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cu < 1261191452 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :C < 1261191455 0 :C!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cu < 1261191500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cu: C is carbon. that would just be wrong. < 1261191512 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261191522 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wanted to see if it was registered < 1261191554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimist < 1261191744 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261191770 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261192931 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :κοππĎος < 1261193831 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261193835 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261195426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261196507 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261196656 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261196660 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :immibis < 1261198116 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-172-4-177.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261198249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm having a sudden urge to write a Thue compiler. < 1261198489 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1261199416 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1261199472 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261199884 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261199907 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261203447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261204696 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-71-241-254-143.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261206467 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1261209057 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261209599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261209600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261211181 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261211539 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261212483 0 :Guest53066!n=john@92.20.106.143 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261213094 0 :Guest53066!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261213436 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261213438 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261213818 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-52.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261214306 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261214545 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261214893 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-52.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261214941 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261214955 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261217250 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261217258 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261218116 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261218727 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261218811 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261219795 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-29.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261220616 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261221882 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-38-169.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261221908 0 :sebbu3!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-38-169.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261222578 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261222825 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261222835 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261223048 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261223554 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261225521 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Thue to X86 executable compiler? < 1261226689 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-4-210.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261227045 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261229761 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-4-210.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261229839 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261231450 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261233242 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261233300 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261234050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261236634 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261237276 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261237544 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261237736 0 :Rembane2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Rembane < 1261238114 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261238362 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261238943 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261241063 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-137-185.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261241677 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261243183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261248033 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261248701 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261248851 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261250294 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261250706 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261251012 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: something like that. < 1261251020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thue to language-not-at-all-similar-to-Thue compiler. < 1261251032 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261251271 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bonus points for writing replacement instructions all inline without using libraries. < 1261251317 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the hardest part is identifying all the possible rewrites and making random choice... < 1261251403 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not necessarily, I think. < 1261251428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, does the Thue spec say the choice is "unspecified", "nondeterministic", or "random"? < 1261251477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, optimising compiler? < 1261251489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh... bbs, phone. < 1261251525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the choice of the choice unspecified, nondeterministic, or random? < 1261251608 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something like that, yeah. < 1261251616 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, it would be that. < 1261251655 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the way to pick random choice with smallest memory usage would be to make first pass over string, counting the possiblities. Then generate random number and do that manyth replacement. < 1261251986 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's unnecessary. < 1261252032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it doesn't need to be a uniform distribution; every replacement simply needs to have a positive probability. < 1261252065 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261252553 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261252593 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261253663 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261253830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, thue -> brainfuck? though you can't optimise much then < 1261253839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be better to do thue → non-esolang < 1261253856 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1261253858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say, C (if you want to be portable) or x86_64 linux asm (if you don't) < 1261253878 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-4-210.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261253899 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C--! < 1261253902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, hm thue is self modifying right? < 1261253904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, or that < 1261253920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do I misremember which one thue is < 1261253926 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Thue is matrioshka. < 1261253960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261254016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is there any thue interpreter in thue? < 1261254522 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a generalization of the INTERCAL select operator be used in digital signal processing? < 1261254617 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261254620 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261255540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm where is fizzie < 1261255548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there? < 1261255557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any idea where fizzie may be? < 1261255588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1261255589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, how do you mean? < 1261255603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I thought you worked at same university or something? < 1261255608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I misremember < 1261255616 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't work there, I study there < 1261255623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay. but apart from that < 1261255624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's saturday < 1261255630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ever met fizzie there? < 1261255641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to his master's thesis presentation, but not otherwise < 1261255645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261255666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think I beat him at the panorama thing now. < 1261255688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not panorama, but close < 1261255691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDR-merging < 1261255711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :42 source images (raw formats). < 1261255884 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Thue interpreter in Thue might be difficult. < 1261256050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, C-- was co-designed by Simon Peyton Jonse. < 1261256053 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/se/es/ < 1261256273 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean you can have a command CAS (Create Address Space) and CTT (Complex Table Translate), and some generaliation of INTERCAL select used to create the address spaces. And then you can have other commands for quick loop and operation on entire memory, etc < 1261256302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, mhm < 1261256369 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261256420 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think they would be useful in digital signal processing, though? (both in audio and video, and others) < 1261257360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I know too little about DSP to be able to answer that question < 1261257397 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261257399 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261257402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I generally use such programs (right now for example, batch converting some 40 RAW images) < 1261257407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1261257890 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261258144 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261258248 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are we DSPing, now? < 1261259167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I think zzo was talking about DSP in general < 1261259182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very zzo-ish < 1261259190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a special kind of way < 1261261673 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261261737 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261262321 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261262520 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261262532 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261263691 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261264348 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261264763 0 :Guest50560!n=john@92.21.63.62 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261264767 0 :Guest50560!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1261264790 0 :Guest50560!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is corewar.co.uk loading for you < 1261265137 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest50560: yes < 1261265151 0 :Guest50560!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1261265171 0 :Guest50560!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for me < 1261265204 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest50560: Is 213.171.218.196 loading for you? < 1261265218 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is corewar fun? < 1261265226 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FYB is fun! :P < 1261265227 0 :Guest50560!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks will try when i leave irc < 1261265245 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest50560: That wasn't a solution, it was a diagnostic. < 1261265247 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that? < 1261265262 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261265274 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/FYB < 1261265279 0 :Guest50560!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261265287 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1261265378 0 :John!n=john@92.21.63.62 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261265393 0 :John!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest5186 < 1261265415 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, I'M the only one who can have their first name as a nick 'round here! < 1261265476 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1261265506 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid dsorganise irc keeps crashing < 1261265680 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer IRCds :) < 1261265746 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too but i recently wiped everything thanks to a software bug < 1261265891 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did DSorganise mess up your file system too? < 1261265927 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant remember if it was dsorganise or something else < 1261265966 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261265972 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there used to be a decnt list of ds homebrew on wikipedia but they removed it < 1261266008 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what would compel someone to name a piece of software (essentially) "disorganise" < 1261266048 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1261266131 0 :Guest5186!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"DSOrganize IRC" < 1261266182 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261266367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<uorygl> A Thue interpreter in Thue might be difficult. <-- i looked at doing a thue interpreter in /// / itflabijtslwi[sp] but sort of lost interest because thue has such arbitrarily restricted input (only whole lines and no way to prevent input injection by colliding with the program code) so it is essentially _less_ useful < 1261266679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1261266683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hours ago remind me < 1261266776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Guest5186> me too but i recently wiped everything thanks to a software bug <-- guess: not a linux user < 1261266784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably windows < 1261266808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least assuming this is about PCs) < 1261266883 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261267311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he's referring to the DS :P < 1261267325 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my case the microSD card's file system got corrupted. < 1261267354 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It being FAT32 probably didn't help :( < 1261267434 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dsorganise is good but the filesystem corruption and crashes aren't... < 1261267455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ghosts and their suffering < 1261267622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah right < 1261267639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, restore it from backup? < 1261267960 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261267962 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kaput < 1261268087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerebrum < 1261268103 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal log reading: thue in thue exists < 1261268189 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, uorygl is here. < 1261268211 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261268232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: technically < 1261268249 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omg; MKRY is dying? < 1261268339 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION got Windows working again! < 1261268364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you shall have to maintain rcfunge! < 1261268378 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Har har. < 1261268392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, using emacs on the iphone! < 1261268409 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously: may his stardust go on to compose wonderful things. < 1261268432 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What a humanist farewell.) < 1261268439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but seriously, why not maintain it. After all, didn't you like it? < 1261268459 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1261268486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no? < 1261268500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just responded to unwarranted hate of him and RC/Funge98. < 1261268522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261268550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, so things haven't been sorted out yet? < 1261268564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever those things are < 1261268578 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261268641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, how much secondary storage does the iphone have? < 1261268723 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The iPhone only has one storage. < 1261268731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no ram? < 1261268737 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the 3G S, 16 or 32 GiB. < 1261268741 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well yes. < 1261268750 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the 3G, dunno. < 1261268757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, and a memory card slot I guess? < 1261268768 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an 8 GiB original. < 1261268770 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1261268771 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is so glad that the malware didn't affect his ability to access the registry < 1261268777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, how weird < 1261268783 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1261268786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261268790 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has enough storage. < 1261268792 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Or Does It?!!! < 1261268810 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPod touch goes up to 64 GiB I think. < 1261268815 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being musicy. < 1261268817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, depends on what you will use it for < 1261268820 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, regedit works, and the change I made to allow myself to access the task manager works < 1261268825 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Like? < 1261268832 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless this thing is so complex that it's letting me _think_ it's working < 1261268836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for music as you said, it is not nearly enough < 1261268842 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1261268843 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: probably not < 1261268853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I assume cd-quality flac here < 1261268854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1261268866 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those won't play on the iPhone. < 1261268866 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there a standard ways to protect processes from Task Manager, or even Process Explorer < 1261268880 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like anti-virus programs use them < 1261268880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, doesn't apple have their own loseless format? < 1261268889 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALAC. < 1261268896 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This piece of work apparently went for the "disable the task manager" option < 1261268903 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really really doubt that it's still active < 1261268906 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lossless on a portable is pointless. < 1261268920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you can plug in good headphones, can't you? < 1261268929 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not archival, so use high quality lossy. Indistinguishable. < 1261268932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe the circuitry can't deliver good sound < 1261268955 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sorry, you cannot distinguish 256 Kbps AAC and lossless. < 1261268964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I never claimed I could < 1261268969 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... < 1261268981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, it is just a matter of principles < 1261268998 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enjoy them thar principles. < 1261269012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hah < 1261269014 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Could you send me MKRY's email? < 1261269024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I don't have your email < 1261269038 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Penguinofthegods@gmail.com < 1261269041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261269079 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: by "send me" I assume you meant "send the world" < 1261269081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, gpg key? < 1261269102 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether I should get a laptop or a desktop. My principles say laptop, but OMG MOAR PIXELS < 1261269110 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: None and proud! < 1261269110 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D ) < 1261269113 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1261269124 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Not if he emails it... < 1261269124 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is so great about laptops? < 1261269138 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I mis-read those lines < 1261269147 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was AnMaster's reply < 1261269149 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d'oh < 1261269157 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: All my work and environment weighing a couple of kilos as a physical object. < 1261269174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I will send it if you keep it private. Reason is simple: I don't know if MKRY would like it. < 1261269189 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Portable anywhere, usable in any orientation I desire. < 1261269196 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course. < 1261269223 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only worry that he might be committing suicide. < 1261269229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, and I hope you can handle PGP/MIME :P < 1261269238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is what I sent it as (signed) < 1261269247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no I won't resend as non-PGP/MIME < 1261269266 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gmail will probably just show it as plaintext. < 1261269291 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Http://gmail.com go go gadget link tap < 1261269306 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1261269350 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Eh what? < 1261269354 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261269366 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your immediately preceding line < 1261269377 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Also: laptops from good companies are a more tightly integrated computer than desktops. < 1261269377 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261269382 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, iPhone. < 1261269398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Http://gmail.com go go gadget link tap <-- ? < 1261269412 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It just shows your message. I will try with MobileMail. < 1261269416 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261269424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, it was an attachment < 1261269425 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I typed it to tap it. < 1261269438 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. Wouldn't load. Brb < 1261269440 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261269467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he certainly types fast for being on a phone... < 1261269505 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261269512 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's like Homestuck or something < 1261269519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He signed it MKRY. I feel distinctly guilty. < 1261269543 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That opener, though — he certainly thinks you hate him. < 1261269571 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't seem like the happiest bloke around... < 1261269605 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rcfunge98.com/ for my tapping. Gonna see if he's put anything on the site. < 1261269620 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, also I mis-interpreted "his email" < 1261269631 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that meant email *address* < 1261269645 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for my tapping"? < 1261269666 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you type so fast on an iPhone? < 1261269672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, I think, shall be my next question. If MKRY is going to kill himself, well, I'd rather he didn't. < 1261269686 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Tsp to open a link. Er, tap. < 1261269701 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, dunno. The auto-corrector helps a lot. < 1261269720 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does the two spaces to make a new sentence. < 1261269731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261269739 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So, what's his email? < 1261269753 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's on his site. < 1261269787 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I feel like writing an email on this thing. < 1261269793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, it is in the forwarded message < 1261269809 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Oh, and the primary skill for iPhone typing is sheer fearlessness! < 1261269810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, look in the header of the forwarded attachment < 1261269849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you never think you make mistakes and just keep typing, it'll all work out fine for the mostpart. < 1261269852 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose you can get FITALY for that thing can you? < 1261269858 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cant. < 1261269864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can't. < 1261269865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, why not? < 1261269880 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: No. Fitaly is for styluses anyway. < 1261269884 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Iphone. < 1261269896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no IMAP client app? < 1261269911 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many digits do you use to type? < 1261269913 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gmail web won't budge. The native app just unlined the text. < 1261269929 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: right index finger only. < 1261269936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hm < 1261269946 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in landscape mode, both thumbs. < 1261269960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, see /msg < 1261270017 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would consider fitaly suitable for a single finger the same way it is for a stylus < 1261270021 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-S < 1261270022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I ask you to guess why I'm currently in a directory containing 1.6 GB image taken without moving the camera. < 1261270034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, reading logs is cheating < 1261270050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, 1.8 GB < 1261270052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread < 1261270079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't all direct though, I think when I actually transferred it from the camera it was "just" 1 GB < 1261270088 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Perhaps. My intense familiarity with QWERTY probably trumps its advantages. < 1261270094 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261270104 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Exposure? < 1261270126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, that's rather vague. what to do with exposure in that case < 1261270133 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cought the start of that conversation. Didn't get to testing, though, just discussion. < 1261270136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw: not a video camera < 1261270188 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(){printf("Hello, world!"); return 0;} < 1261270207 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, that was pretty fast. < 1261270213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> I cought the start of that conversation. Didn't get to testing, though, just discussion. <-- ? < 1261270222 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two days ago or so? < 1261270230 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With fizzie. < 1261270234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261270314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well 1.6 GB is: 4 identical shots (for noise reduction by enfuse to average them) * 10 different shutter speeds < 1261270327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well those are ~1 GB in RAW < 1261270340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is a lot of tiff images there now < 1261270347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 bits per channel < 1261270366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and AdobeRGB < 1261270401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, it means I'm completely unable to do manual retouching in gimp until the final downsampled to 8 bits stage < 1261270406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can still do stuff in krita < 1261270413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which support this soft of image format < 1261270423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but krita is a pain to use < 1261270476 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you telling me this? < 1261270497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, becuase this will be a glorious HDR xmas tree when it is done! < 1261270543 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is an answer to "Why are you doing this?", not "Why are you telling me this?", < 1261270561 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,$/./ < 1261270601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no it isn't to either: "why a HDR xmas tree" < 1261270609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the follow up question < 1261270626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't want to ask that question. < 1261270634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, as for why I told you: I'm bored watching the slow output < 1261270645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this takes minutes even on a fast system < 1261270648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have an opinion on notebook vs desktop? < 1261270659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I spent some time talking to you meanwhile < 1261270668 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay :P < 1261270710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, actually gimp is still useful. To preview intermediate steps. < 1261270754 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess nobody has an opinion, then. Toodles for a few minutes. < 1261270756 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261270768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Toodles"? < 1261270776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Anyone have an opinion on notebook vs desktop? <-- well < 1261270790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smaller laptop monitors are irritating for photographic works? < 1261270797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if hi-dpi < 1261272944 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just got this email from a friend: "What would you do for RSA encryption?" That's all there is. What does anyone think I should reply with? < 1261273219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, is the user computer literate < 1261273225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, at what level < 1261273227 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261273240 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can program in C < 1261273245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1261273248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, what OS? < 1261273256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd inform them that I'd implement it in C. < 1261273258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if windows it could be malware < 1261273276 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what could be malware? < 1261273295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird spam to everyone in address book? < 1261273302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far fetched I know < 1261273310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, "I would kill for RSA, but not for DSA" < 1261273313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about that ;P < 1261273327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1261273354 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'll ask them "What would you do for TCP/IP?" < 1261273354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, actually for RSA I would use some existing library, rather than try to implement it myself < 1261273366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider all timing attacks and so on that exists < 1261273416 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amature implementation of cryptography is asking for trouble < 1261273430 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use a library. Read the docs carefully < 1261273430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, exactly < 1261273469 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, I don't think motors are involved. < 1261273489 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: huh? < 1261273493 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He also sent me a pile (not literally) of code and the message "What is wrong with this?" < 1261273501 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: "amature" is closer to "armature" than "amateur" < 1261273510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :motor? < 1261273525 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1261273538 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261273544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :armature? Isn't that a light fixture < 1261273553 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261273556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the thing holding the bulb < 1261273557 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In electrical engineering, an armature generally refers to one of the two principal electrical components of an electromechanical machine– a motor or generator" < 1261273581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, the word in Swedish generally refers to the the bit that holds the bulb < 1261273588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how confusing < 1261273602 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mrgan.tumblr.com/post/266988205/pandy Sleek. Who needs OpenGL? Someone tell fizzie to see if this works on the N900. < 1261273611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Unless, of course, aforementioned cryptography is intended to keep things secret from centuries-old Eves. < 1261273695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that he can't have his first name as a nick. < 1261273738 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nickserv "Ivan" Hope < 1261273745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1261273750 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Eves"? < 1261273750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261273759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can if I get rid of the guy who's using it right now. < 1261273771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, forgot / or messed up typo correction? < 1261273773 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"get rid of" < 1261273790 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed < 1261273800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Eve, the eavesdropper. < 1261273804 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261273806 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed < 1261273811 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: For you, I can only assume that means proving using Bayesian reasoning that they don't exist. < 1261273816 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eh? < 1261273822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Nickserv "Ivan" Hope < 1261273823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1261273834 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it? It was a joke. < 1261273838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261273851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I wonder why you would say that. < 1261273855 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or why I would do that. < 1261273876 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl used to identify as ihope, which he backronymmed to Ivan Hope. < 1261273890 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? Funny joke make laughter glorious. < 1261273913 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Because you're too warm and fuzzy to kill. < 1261273929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. < 1261273943 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curls up into a warm and fuzzy... roundish thing. < 1261273952 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, a monad. < 1261274052 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like iPhone's WebKit is good enough to use for really native-feeling apps, thus subverting the app store and getting cool things like automatic updates. < 1261274078 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make... Tilt Pong. < 1261274085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, tilt pong? < 1261274096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would it work? < 1261274128 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circular pong? < 1261274140 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be pong, except flipped so that the sides are top and bottom; played horizontally on an iPhone. Tilting left and right slides the bat. < 1261274141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, hypersphere pong! < 1261274156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, circular tilt pong. < 1261274184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, wow that sound cool < 1261274186 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sides are the outside and the center, your bat is always wherever down is < 1261274190 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bat is stationary on the screen; tilting moves everything else, thus moving the bat. < 1261274200 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ai's bat is smaller of course < 1261274202 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Tilt or circular tilt pong? < 1261274213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, the combination mostly < 1261274246 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. It'd work best if the iphone was square, though. < 1261274260 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, um, circular. < 1261274266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you could extend it to 3D with... sphere-pong! < 1261274273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semi-transparent sphere < 1261274286 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tesseract pong. < 1261274307 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261274312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I said hypersphere above too < 1261274319 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"—And He Built a Crooked Pong Playing Field—" < 1261274364 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously, I might do circular tilt pong. < 1261274374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you could convert it to circular tiling breakout < 1261274380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no bouncing edges < 1261274383 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iphone's killer app. < 1261274406 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still working on my killer app. < 1261274407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tilting* < 1261274411 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it'll start killing any month now. < 1261274428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, good, killing iphone. Android will rule < 1261274434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So youre in the center? < 1261274443 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, god I hope not. < 1261274444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, the bricks are in the center < 1261274456 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iphone + androids app model. Kthx < 1261274462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, your paddle moves around the sphere based on tilting < 1261274469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need the bounce the ball all the way around < 1261274475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261274480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will fall down any edges < 1261274481 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(android market is open, third party apps easy) < 1261274486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't bounce to any walls < 1261274495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Spheres have no edges. < 1261274496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to the paddle and the bricks < 1261274514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, uh. limiting area :P < 1261274516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1261274521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, iPhone plus no Apple douchebaggery. < 1261274534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that would be insanely difficult to play, AnMaster. < 1261274535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Apple doesn't know how to do anything without a heavy dose of douchebaggery. < 1261274547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, would work better in 2D I bet < 1261274554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey—the Mac is an open market. < 1261274567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say they used the same douchebaggery in every market. < 1261274581 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just fucked this one up. It's gradually showing signs of slowly improving. < 1261274590 0 :Sgeo__!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261274602 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: #applefuckspuppies is over there < 1261274617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I agree with Gregor < 1261274619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261274629 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUPPY < 1261274632 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAPE < 1261274644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, they don't stop at that < 1261274654 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION huggles sidux on his MacBook. < 1261274656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do weird fetishism to the puppies too < 1261274660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUPPY SKULLFUCKIBG < 1261274662 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if I could just get rid of this "MacBook" part. < 1261274666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, "sidux"? < 1261274682 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sidux is a semi-distro of fixes to Debian sid. < 1261274686 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Here's a dollar, kid; go buy a worse computer. < 1261274697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1261274708 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Basically, it makes sid JUST stable enough to actually use, while still giving it the delicious flavor of Debian. < 1261274711 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just sell the MacBook and buy five laptops with the profit. < 1261274719 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: 'snot mine. < 1261274727 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macs resell for killer pices. < 1261274738 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: The resell value does not make it any more mine :P < 1261274762 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone typing is, surprisingly, not instantaneous. < 1261274776 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STEVE JOBS LIED TO ME < 1261274784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because the iPhone's crappy onscreen keyboard is just that :P < 1261274795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1261274802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261274831 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It beats the hell out of the incredibly tiny keys that are hard to press and have almost no tactility or error correction. < 1261274849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, ever other phone's keyboard. < 1261274868 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think I am demonstrating rather acceptable speed with it. < 1261274900 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should probably pack sometime. < 1261274904 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with my plane tomorrow. < 1261274910 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PACK EVIL SHOTS < 1261274931 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RATS LIVE ON NO EVIL STAR < 1261274952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PACKING IS EDUCATED STUPID! < 1261274990 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 gigofigurdruxfuxrixitxruxrxriirso < 1261274994 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261275444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPhone's keyboard is better than other phones' keyboards? Gee, I didn't know that. < 1261275636 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261276154 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261276836 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261276904 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1261278317 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261278830 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261278833 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :immibis < 1261285129 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261289441 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261291530 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders whether to tell soupdragon about his quit message < 1261291700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1261294013 0 :p_q!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261294048 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261294800 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats BitchX.doc < 1261294800 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261294823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some kind of readme for the bitchx client, i guess < 1261294896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1261294924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so im guessing what this means is that soupdragon is on a nix machine and by default, the bitchx client has that as the quit message < 1261294936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somewhere in the readme, probably the end, it says this < 1261294981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it says this nowhere, it merely lists it < 1261294991 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bitches at everyone for no reason other than the mention of bitch in a certain IRC client's name < 1261295004 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night all < 1261295006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fucks sgeo < 1261295007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1261295008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1261295024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to pack < 1261295062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will kill anyone who says any of: pack, struct, structure, cast, garbage < 1261295075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the BitchX manual actually a Microsoft Word document? < 1261295098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything beginning with c_ < 1261295112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :field and fields < 1261295137 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v4 < 1261295138 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw < 1261295182 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm scared < 1261295403 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night all < 1261295413 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember to declare your struct with __attribute__((packed)), and use the appropriate fields, don't cast them stupidly or you might get garbage in a field < 1261295439 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and don't touch c_unused or your computer will explode < 1261295451 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kills immibis then asks if __attribute__ is actually supposed to mean anything < 1261295501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh, Sgeo don't you know you should ask first and kill afterwards? < 1261295506 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION (who is barely alive) mumbles with his dying breath "......g...c.........c..............." < 1261295575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night all < 1261295583 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dies < 1261295596 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reanimated by the power of oegs < 1261295611 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what oegS is < 1261295620 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How'd you get 4/5ths of my AIM screenname? < 1261295671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonk reven lliw uoy < 1261295725 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :‮Technically, I typed this in forwards. < 1261295742 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :‮And it might appear forwards to some people. < 1261295751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it might < 1261295766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumes that's a unicode right-to-left mark thing < 1261295769 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261295803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's somewhat unstable when selected < 1261295840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night < 1261295846 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261295999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261296000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261297682 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]" < 1261298030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1261299145 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... mIRC doesn't do RTL. "left-to-right/‏right-to-left‎/left-to-right" displays as "left-to-right/right-to-left/left-to-right", when it should be displayed as "left-to-right/tfel-ot-thgir/left-to-right". < 1261300789 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261302695 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-18.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261303703 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261304571 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261304771 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261304902 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261304911 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261305292 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261305306 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261305422 0 :olsner_!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261305424 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261305427 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :olsner < 1261305705 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261306105 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1261306114 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261306237 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261306345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<uorygl> The iPhone's keyboard is better than other phones' keyboards? Gee, I didn't know that. <-- what about those phones that you can open in a way similar to a laptop? < 1261306365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those having a screen and a tiny qwerty keyboard inside < 1261306373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was years since I last saw one of them < 1261306377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some nokia iirc < 1261306927 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261306995 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261307114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261308156 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-172-4-177.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261310183 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261310323 0 :atrapado!n=roper@130.102.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261312655 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261313899 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-27-232-243.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261314724 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-26-55-57.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261315817 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1261316702 0 :AnMaster_!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261317525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261318094 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1261318958 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes < 1261319244 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261320300 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-88-74.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261320885 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261322249 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> was years since I last saw one of them < 1261322258 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all slide-out now, but it's fundamentally the same. < 1261322362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1261322647 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261325145 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261325997 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261326162 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261326334 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261326338 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261326355 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261328759 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261329322 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261329404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc < 1261329539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D&D cuts a little close today < 1261329571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you said we jumped the shark. Agreed. I think we should stop the contest < 1261329585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I do have to say it was so long ago I read them I forgot them < 1261329589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261329593 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261329633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :james stud flushes down the drain... < 1261329689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and D&D? < 1261329718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was obvious... < 1261329736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, guillotine blades < 1261329779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261330752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm where *is* fizzie < 1261330768 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dissolved < 1261330779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzled out, then? < 1261331210 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261331441 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261331878 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-172-4-177.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261332514 0 :alegend!n=chatzill@68-191-216-221.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261332560 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1261332568 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1261332581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1261332590 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alleged < 1261332618 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, yes I'm the guy who wrote Minimal-2D. < 1261332648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: you probably should change your irc quit message ;) < 1261332650 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261332664 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how to do that < 1261332670 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a quit message < 1261332674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, we figured :D < 1261332692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a message that gets sent to the channels you're on whenever you quit < 1261332696 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan VERSION me for a laugh < 1261332750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1261332786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will shut up now. if he understood that correctly. < 1261332793 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lipbalm* < 1261332872 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to the computer. Which he already was at. < 1261333139 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal-2D < 1261333152 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alegend its brainfuck < 1261333157 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 2D < 1261333172 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrote any programs in it? < 1261333454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1261333699 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it IS easy to make an infinite loop. < 1261333947 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RD < 1261333949 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UL < 1261333962 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RLY? < 1261333986 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope oerjan didn't take me as rude :( < 1261334200 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, he might have. < 1261334296 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261334299 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261334867 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ya know, I wonder if somebody could do modulo in Minimal-2D. < 1261334957 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1261335134 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do integer division, the remainder is what you get from the modulo operation. < 1261335142 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at Minimal-2D. < 1261335180 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing-complete. < 1261335181 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bows. < 1261335194 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1261335472 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like 2L < 1261336057 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261336079 0 :olsner!n=salparot@84-216-40-1.sprayadsl.telenor.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261336307 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261336392 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261338195 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261338560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261338604 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261339231 0 :HaskellLove!n=chatzill@92.55.82.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261339235 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261339246 0 :HaskellLove!n=chatzill@92.55.82.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261339253 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys use ANTLR? < 1261339290 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.242.250.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261339586 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, that's not lambda! < 1261339634 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what do you write your languages in? < 1261339637 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HaskellLove what other nick dids did you use? < 1261339652 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem familiar < 1261339659 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one only < 1261339685 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's interesting how I keep seeing you < 1261339694 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in various esoteric channels < 1261339784 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am only in haskell dude < 1261339873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a #haskell-dude channel? < 1261339921 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell you fuck! < 1261339927 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HaskellLove: I know a guy who's trying to design a better general purpose language and he's never been to university. < 1261339938 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fuck! fuck! fuck! hasbell < 1261339946 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think he'll do it. < 1261339957 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than what? < 1261339967 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other general purpose languages < 1261339976 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like the next ruby or python or ...? < 1261339977 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders yeah usualy good stuff comes from guys like that because when you are in college you have no time for else but college < 1261340026 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give me contact i might ask him for cooperation if he finds me useful which i think he will < 1261340035 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The next object-oriented general purpose language. There are a lot of quite original ideas but it borrows from J, Forth and SmallTalk. < 1261340073 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders I will study lot of languages in 2010 so... i can help him he can help me... < 1261340099 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HaskellLove: You can consider me a contact to him because once he open-sources the language I'll very likely be a contributor. I worked with him on the design of a previous implementation of his language. < 1261340119 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He hasn't open-sourced yet because he's using it in a startup. < 1261340140 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see... well I will hang on #haskell if anything comes up let me know ok? < 1261340166 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HaskellLove where are you going in programming languages? < 1261340177 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I'm olliesaunders on twitter if we lose touch. < 1261340180 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i dont see why he would open source it, if he has that original ideas... or the open source thing will be limited? so that people cant touch the core? < 1261340191 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon what do you mean < 1261340200 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you care about this stuff < 1261340216 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon dude piss off < 1261340228 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh turns out you're an asshole too < 1261340230 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HaskellLove: I think people accept that for a language to be successful it might be free and open-source. < 1261340234 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders well i am same name on #haskell so :) < 1261340235 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have expected that I guess < 1261340282 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try not to let the language barrier lead me to think foreign people like HaskellLove are stupid, but I keep getting data which tells me otherwise < 1261340296 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders man who da fuck are you why do you bother me < 1261340331 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me? < 1261340371 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders does not he worry of big companies stealing? or other language freaks like me ? :) if i let it open source i would not let them touch the core < 1261340405 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People don't care. < 1261340417 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-86-31-77-81.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261340428 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now you only have my word that this is actually a language worthy of anyone's attention. < 1261340451 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i will get back to work you have anything let me know... take care < 1261340492 0 :HaskellLove!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261340493 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright. < 1261340564 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's gone. < 1261340680 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a channel dedicated to programming language design? < 1261340705 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one :p < 1261340721 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, nice. < 1261340732 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261340746 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might just been for discussing existing esoteric languages. But I suppose esoteric languages are all about programming language design anyway. < 1261340794 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What interests you soupdragon? < 1261340838 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now not much in this area but I am learning some basics toward quantum computation < 1261340947 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1261340981 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do quantum computers exist? < 1261340996 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I gather that people have built some small prototypes < 1261341009 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the otherhand, lots of stuff is a quantum computer < 1261341019 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261341019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<osaunders> I thought it might just been for discussing existing esoteric languages. But I suppose esoteric languages are all about programming language design anyway. <-- well yes esolangs < 1261341022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly at least < 1261341025 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems to be the way the world works < 1261341032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't prevent lots of off topic stuff < 1261341085 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine a world where I could use some of my own poo to compute something. < 1261341111 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fecal computing. < 1261341307 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, err... < 1261341337 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261341344 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*awkward silence* < 1261341361 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I like to "go there" sometimes. < 1261341636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awkward silence indeed < 1261341670 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261341685 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone use J? < 1261341701 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it once < 1261341704 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while back I just checked it out < 1261341710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember little < 1261341728 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so cool, I like watching documentaries about APL too < 1261341789 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about K? < 1261341821 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or A+. < 1261341836 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at those two. I'm interested in how they compare to J. < 1261341869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc ehird likes J at least < 1261341931 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J is the successor to APL so I always figured J > APL. < 1261341962 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given they are designed by the same person. < 1261342771 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, there are no quantum computers in the universe using more than, oh, a dozen qubits. < 1261342789 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dozen qubits = 2^12 different states < 1261342862 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One qubit = infinitely many states, actually. < 1261342886 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dozen qubits = infinitely^12 different states < 1261342917 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm quite sure there's a theorem stating that you can't store more than n bits using n qubits, so it doesn't really matter how many states there are. < 1261342949 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261342998 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.242.250.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261343738 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1261343835 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261343888 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261344164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<r******> Sgeo: what is with the esolang logo? < 1261344647 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is lemony fresh < 1261344768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261345146 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts to build an SVN snapshot of GCC < 1261347864 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is GCC developed in? < 1261347899 0 :madbrain!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261347932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C. < 1261347985 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1261347987 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get 400 memory accesses per scanline (8 bit). Design a computer system. < 1261348174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Atari 2600? < 1261348335 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do better than that ;; < 1261348386 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, it can't even play music or show bitmaps < 1261348405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it can. Just not very well. < 1261348416 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, GCC is in SVN not CVS < 1261348425 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it can try yes < 1261348452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have the ability to use arbitrary sprites, and can change those sprites. < 1261348456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, you can display bitmaps. < 1261348462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... Painfully. < 1261348463 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes for food. < 1261348722 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261348763 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the block with HaskellDude in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.20 is the longest epidemic of empty stupidity this channel has seen in a while. < 1261348773 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discuss(t). < 1261348809 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry; I mean "hi". :P < 1261348851 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261348852 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not on osaunders' part, mind you. < 1261348890 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone involved in something with influences from Smalltalk and J is cool in my book. < 1261349017 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. Howdy. < 1261349107 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dead right now I see. Oh well. Toodles. < 1261349109 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261349976 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261350071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> I hope oerjan didn't take me as rude :( < 1261350079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, just evil, despicable... < 1261350087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1261350102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1261350113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: succinct < 1261350113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way to go with vendor lock in: provide standard DC connector < 1261350121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't specify what voltage or anything < 1261350123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a part number < 1261350252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1261350404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1261350416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my vlc icon has a tomteluva < 1261350421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is in Englsih < 1261350423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English* < 1261350425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1261350436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite believe this < 1261350438 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1261350457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, do you have vlc installed? < 1261350473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this happens on my desktop and my laptop < 1261350490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know of... < 1261350558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has this strange feeling of being used as an ehird/ais523 surrogate, here. that is _not_ going to work, btw. < 1261350575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, damn < 1261350611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and fizzie is gone too < 1261350634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact: where the heck is everyone < 1261350637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except possibly for the tomteluva part. at least i understand what it means. but i'm not sure if it has a name in english. (santa cap/hat?) < 1261350648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohm < 1261350649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1261350671 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261350690 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Vlc changes icon for Xmas I believe < 1261350704 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: AnMaster just needs someone to love! < 1261350729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, (or hate ;P) < 1261350756 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still attach yourself to those you hate upon occasion. < 1261350773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, depends. I don't hate you. I just dislike you < 1261350825 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet, you expect me to engage in friendly, or at least neutral, banter with you on whatever random topic you choose, often. < 1261350837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not really "dislike". < 1261350873 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1261350884 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not criticising < 1261350909 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use this channel as a bit of a mass broadcast mechanism often. < 1261350970 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261350997 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dragon; of soup thereof. < 1261351090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a dragon for making soup of, obviously. but he should be safe until we find a recipe. < 1261351096 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: I contend you are neither soup nor a dragon. < 1261351139 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am ehird but not an iPhone; I am therefore infinity% more honest than you. < 1261351250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's a soupdragon, that's just the fax < 1261351291 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuk yuk yuk. < 1261351306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yak yak yak. butter. < 1261351321 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mushroom mushroom. < 1261351341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butter butter < 1261351354 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mushroom butter. < 1261351379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives Rembane some oats < 1261351401 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Donkey oaty. < 1261351424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not donkey. < 1261351430 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ta ta for a few minutes. < 1261351456 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Psst—Don Quixote. < 1261351458 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261351460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1261351470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION learns about "snel hest" < 1261351482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is this essentially swedish lolhorse? < 1261351495 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-238-252-110.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261351496 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell how honest my nick is. < 1261351515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: well i have my doubts you're actually an australian animal < 1261351516 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it's a respelling of "warrigal". So it's... totally 100% honest. < 1261351531 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: om nom nom < 1261351542 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This message has been removed by the author. < 1261351572 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm back. < 1261351644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<osaunders> Is there a channel dedicated to programming language design? < 1261351660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall hearing about one. or maybe that was oses < 1261351676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#osdev in that case) < 1261351750 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1261351791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's been done here, even non-esoteric ones (Gregor's plof comes to mind) < 1261351891 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1261351906 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261351908 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems like a cool place I'm going to hang out here for a while. < 1261352016 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard some language design discussions on #haskell, but they tend to be quite haskellspecific < 1261352030 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I'm on #haskell too. < 1261352038 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm learning Haskell because I want to write a language. < 1261352061 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I don't feel qualified to implement a language without a reasonable grasp of the FP paradigm. < 1261352194 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, style < 1261352195 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: if i am < 1261352208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1261352208 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1261352232 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, put the blue pyramid ontop of the green cylinder < 1261352233 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: i admit my ideas might not interest most people use the term " closure" < 1261352283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, feed the bleen sphere to the grue < 1261352283 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it seems like a big dumbass untill something suddenly clicks, and then adds 1 in front. < 1261352320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: and then it looks like a big dumbass with 1 in front < 1261352321 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you said the t word!) the template takes care of individual instructions into multi-character code will function how you expect it to < 1261352339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: then then then then < 1261352340 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ( the acknowledgements, not as a statement on the implementation you're using. you'd have one configuration file, and < 1261352440 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What about Eliza? < 1261352441 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: wait a moment, the only difference is that! people don't even consider its technical merit when they see list.length ( because they know anything about fnord windows at all can be useful for < 1261352459 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I quite agree with that. But what about Eliza? < 1261352460 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: and i just like for things to happen.' < 1261352482 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this madness? < 1261352484 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I think you're quite right when it comes to Eliza. < 1261352485 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: sexps are enough to make it much easier < 1261352491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot used to be with Eliza but they had a nasty breakup < 1261352492 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: does that interpreter extend to the language < 1261352502 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Are you Sparta? < 1261352502 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: if 2004. < 1261352510 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Not 300? < 1261352510 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: even if our brain works slower, but still < 1261352514 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261352519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1261352519 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1261352524 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Not enough muscles eh? < 1261352524 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: gimp is a bitch to read < 1261352528 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^ < 1261352528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders: ^ that < 1261352545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders: I'd like to note that Haskell is probably the nicest language to implement a language in. < 1261352551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, Parsec. < 1261352556 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what is the nicest language to implement a language in? < 1261352557 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: no special commands?) < 1261352569 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, it shouldn't have special commands? < 1261352570 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: but that's not godwin is it? :) ( i'm attracted to these types of problems) < 1261352574 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh yes, people on #haskell like to make that known. < 1261352576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lightyears ahead of the competition < 1261352584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Indeed. < 1261352595 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An IRC bot built in Brainfuck?! < 1261352596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsec *alone* makes it much nicer. < 1261352604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: no, befunge < 1261352604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rembane: No, built in Befunge. < 1261352606 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funogot seems more comprehensible than last time i tried talking to it < 1261352627 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, pikhq: Oh. Thanks. < 1261352645 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about Parrot and building languages? < 1261352704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parrot is just something for your compiler to target. < 1261352722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can be used with any language, really. < 1261352723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some more easily than others, mind) < 1261352739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if pikhq noticed the pun < 1261352850 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mixing things up... < 1261352876 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I thought it was the official slogan < 1261353038 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge looks pretty awesome. < 1261353111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: it is? well it could be < 1261353127 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why I thought this < 1261353156 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn you may be right < 1261353164 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google shows up some hits < 1261353246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, not just haskell either: http://www.theparsecgroup.com/ (warning: hype) < 1261353267 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1261353283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders: funge98 may very well be the most useful esoteric language, with all its extensions < 1261353305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka fingerprints) < 1261353314 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about J? < 1261353321 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J isn't an esolang < 1261353328 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1261353335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just looks like one :D < 1261353393 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who writes these esolangs? Students? < 1261353527 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it doesn't look like it is the official slogan for the parsec library. but it's been thought of. < 1261353567 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone written anything in Funge98 here? < 1261353589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie wrote fungot but he's not here at the moment < 1261353590 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: transactions are publications that stand in their own module < 1261353731 0 :snakbar!i=snakbar@nor75-11-82-66-226-226.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261353737 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1261353745 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1261353772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1261353783 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have just written a bainfuck interpreter, but i'm not sure for it's complete working < 1261353798 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you give me some BF sources to test it? < 1261353838 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++++++++[.+] < 1261353847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should print lots of different letters < 1261353869 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :D < 1261353884 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one seems to work < 1261353891 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found that one on internet < 1261353892 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>++++++++++>+>+[ < 1261353892 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[ < 1261353892 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<- < 1261353892 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>> < 1261353892 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ]<<< < 1261353894 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1261353899 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that do? < 1261353901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#Examples has a couple < 1261353904 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is supposed to show the fibonacci numbers < 1261353919 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not working with my interpreter < 1261353924 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261353927 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1261353939 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea < 1261353945 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whitespace issue? < 1261353957 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the source? < 1261353960 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you possibly debug something like this? < 1261353965 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this program is so complicated < 1261353965 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261353972 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be another way to tackle it < 1261353985 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how have you written the interpreter? < 1261354005 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you test it, i'll know if it's the code or my program the problem < 1261354005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. < 1261354006 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1261354015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: does that work? < 1261354020 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote it i c++ < 1261354040 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it long? < 1261354044 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it show @ yes < 1261354051 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not too long < 1261354061 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why don't you paste it to a website < 1261354065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: what if you insert some whitespace? < 1261354067 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see it < 1261354080 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, w8 a minute i'll do it all ^^ < 1261354097 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-227.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261354109 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whitespace no problem < 1261354119 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261354121 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :immibis < 1261354147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. < 1261354147 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello World! < 1261354155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: and that one? < 1261354190 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello world is working < 1261354199 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my only problem was with the code i gave you < 1261354208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm think we need to test something with nested loops... < 1261354213 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if it's supposed to work < 1261354232 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give me a paste website, i can't find one right now < 1261354235 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261354241 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin.ca? < 1261354245 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/ < 1261354258 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1261354260 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[>+] < 1261354276 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ((:)(:)) < 1261354291 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[.+] < 1261354291 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : . . !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚„…†‡‰Š‹ŚŤŽŹ‘’“”•–—™š›śťžź ˇ˘Ł¤Ą¦§¨©Ş«¬­®Ż°±˛ł´µ¶·¸ąş»Ľ˝ľżŔÁÂĂÄĹĆÇČÉĘËĚÍÎĎ ... < 1261354298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: that's not brainfuck, do you mean ^ul ? < 1261354360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf >++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<] < 1261354361 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... < 1261354373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: works in fungot < 1261354373 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but its a small city :) i like the lawyer stuff < 1261354381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, snakbar < 1261354386 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1261354400 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize it printed in decimal < 1261354433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1261354467 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bye" < 1261354483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++++[++++>-<]>. < 1261354483 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Á < 1261354500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1261354504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++++[++++>+<]>. < 1261354504 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261354565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>-. < 1261354565 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261354567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1261354576 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>-. < 1261354576 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1261354582 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1261354588 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping for more ?'s < 1261354590 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want me to post it entirely compilable, or just the main functions ? < 1261354599 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar everything < 1261354603 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol okay < 1261354607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: does ++++[++++>+<]>. work for you? otherwise it could be a wrapping issue < 1261354608 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to glance at it < 1261354629 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has some diferent files ^^ < 1261354639 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i put it on diferent pastes ? < 1261354666 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan > your code gives me one '?' < 1261354697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1261354699 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261354701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm another thing < 1261354760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++++++++[->++++++++<][>.<+]>. < 1261354760 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1261354765 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is a first post, there are not ALL the files but every BF functions < 1261354766 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1721881 < 1261354773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: what does that give you? < 1261354780 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written mostly in french sorry ^ ^ < 1261354805 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives a lot of @ < 1261354821 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261354821 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261354821 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261354821 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ < 1261354824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: ah there we are. you are not skipping loops that start with 0 < 1261354827 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1261354856 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy mistake < 1261354859 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i enter a loop, if i'm 0 i should skip hmmmm < 1261354864 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okayyyyy < 1261355001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there's a test suite for brainfuck like there's mycology for befunge... < 1261355022 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much to test < 1261355034 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementations tend to be upfront about cell size and memory limits < 1261355055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but for the basics < 1261355127 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is too easy < 1261355182 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: what do you think about my code? < 1261355200 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to fix because it's well written < 1261355208 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D ^^ < 1261355320 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261355502 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to fix it right now < 1261355946 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261359395 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is my function now for the '[' sign in BF < 1261359396 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1721941 < 1261359412 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work properly < 1261359418 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter gets to crash < 1261359457 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just use an integer? start with 1, increment for [, decrement for ], stop when it gets to 0 < 1261359465 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some code work, other don't < 1261359501 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah why not, your right < 1261359566 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar this is complicated < 1261359576 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too complicated for me :( < 1261359578 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have an easy solution? < 1261359622 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1261359645 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe one would do a processing step when reading in the brainfuck program at first < 1261359662 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turning every [ into a label that says where the corresponding ] is < 1261359876 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261359887 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's a simpler way < 1261359891 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1261359928 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the counter like immibis said looks simpler to me < 1261359933 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will try it tomirow < 1261359937 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting sleepy now < 1261359940 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I didn't notice that < 1261359986 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the counter is the same method i used, a little diferent. so i think my method should work, must be an error somewhere < 1261360015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://nrkbeta.no/2009/12/18/bergensbanen-eng/ <-- wow < 1261360023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did you watch it? < 1261360044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1261360053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh, not even any part? < 1261360072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how boring < 1261360093 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow!!!!!!!!!! < 1261360097 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for linking this < 1261360104 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was 3D graphics at first < 1261360135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i'm norwegian, we're spoiled with scenery already >:) < 1261360145 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it fits on a DVD hmmmmmmmmmm < 1261360148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, meh < 1261360169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, what would have been 3D graphics? < 1261360181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: no it doesn't < 1261360186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i don't watch tv, this is the first i hear about it becoming an internet phenomenon... < 1261360188 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the picture on that page looked like 3D graphics < 1261360189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The original file was 165 GB, too much for most people to download. We coded a 720 50P, 1280Ă—720 version, resulting in a 22 GB file." < 1261360197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way THAT fits on a dvd < 1261360208 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVD are what 5 GB? < 1261360209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck 22 GB is too much for me to download < 1261360228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, 3.2 or so iirc? For single layer single sided < 1261360239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and burning dual layer just doesn't seem to work well in practise < 1261360246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad burns and such < 1261360270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? internet phenomenon‽‽ < 1261360271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1261360275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is crazy? < 1261360298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well it said so on the page, more or less.. < 1261360304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261360317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah I got the link from an american < 1261360320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess that is true < 1261360497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261361196 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261361201 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://notalwaysright.com/when-open-source-meets-closed-minds/3305 < 1261361205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEVIANT LINUX < 1261361278 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic < 1261362113 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261362212 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261364895 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261366718 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261368740 0 :alegend!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261369476 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not fake at all. :| < 1261369478 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.129.47 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261369816 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1261369826 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261370060 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261370713 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261370729 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you seem to think i’m random, but i’m only psuedorandom. you would be exactly this way, were you seeded at the very same time and place." —why the lucky stiff < 1261370805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wasn't that the guy who disappeared < 1261370819 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Well, no. < 1261370836 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He deleted himself from the Internet completely. < 1261370860 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, the host human of _why killed _why. < 1261370902 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That personality, those works, that *person*, is dead. And nobody knows why but him. < 1261371000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least no one who is telling < 1261371017 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sad, but what can you do. Most courts only accept the murder of someone with a physical body. < 1261371062 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: yes, these are my real opinions on identity—although I don't think it should count as murder :P) < 1261371172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261371177 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the smallest extension to the pi calculus is that makes it TC. < 1261371181 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261371195 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261371200 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you get that last message? < 1261371205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't know the pi calculus wasn't TC < 1261371210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1261371223 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't by itself, I don't think. < 1261371229 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask Wikipedia? < 1261371232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it had an embedding of lambda calculus into it < 1261371247 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I think that's am extension. < 1261371250 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an < 1261371262 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link me the WP page? < 1261371294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_calculus#Turing_completeness < 1261371385 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you can implement a typed pi calculus in Haskell. < 1261371388 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like it's TC < 1261371624 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261372299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261372864 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O omniscient fungot, what is the best question I could ask you right now? < 1261372865 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: if i knew of sisc? is there anything wrong with it? :) < 1261372893 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O omniscient fungot, if i knew of sisc? is there anything wrong with it? < 1261372894 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: but i don't think it's worth putting effort into optimizing keyword calls. every lambda's body is a shell, i think.... < 1261372954 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note to self: learn of sisc; don't try to optimize keyword calls; every lambda's body is a shell. < 1261373007 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be neat if some future dude looked at these logs and figured that fung*t is actually omniscient and powerful. < 1261373023 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I'm sure has been said before. < 1261373356 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Has it been said before? < 1261373357 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lua's popular because it's cheaper to buy a new house, and heal my computer with full u+ support" then :) < 1261373575 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gn8 thanks for help < 1261373577 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitte" < 1261375244 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: are you omniscient and powerful? < 1261375245 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: ssh, don't tell me that i forgot to apply sunscreen on my ears, la la la i can't hear a fig? < 1261375259 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: you forgot to apply sunscreen on my ears < 1261375260 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: maybe i'll combine them fnord by keeping expressions and statements different things. fnord foo 1/ n fnord bar 1/ n fnord bar 1/! < 1261375273 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders where the line before the previous one came form < 1261375274 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from* < 1261375280 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: you do that. < 1261375281 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: an exception can be raised to the fnord < 1261375285 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ah i see < 1261375287 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis: hehe. btw, it's ruby code but it's chaotic neutral, in d&d terms. bear with me) up-from to in-sequence suggests the use of improper lists in this manner < 1261375312 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: please don't talk nonsense < 1261375411 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone have a win32 binary rcfunge? < 1261375414 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261375420 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261375600 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261375714 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261375995 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-227.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261377010 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261377619 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261379752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261382399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261382400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261383798 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261383950 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261384289 0 :madbrain!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1261384393 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261390487 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261391185 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-86-31-77-81.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261392266 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-4-84.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261393501 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261394649 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261395686 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261396152 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261399538 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-72-253.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261400049 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261400121 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261400781 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.242.250.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261400903 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a POSIX funge98 compiler/interpreter? < 1261401036 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261401777 0 :osaunders_!n=osaunder@89.240.196.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261402193 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261402193 0 :osaunders_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :osaunders < 1261402876 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261404317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders: cfunge is one < 1261404376 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI may be another, depending on what you mean by something being POSIX < 1261408574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1261410075 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Thank you. < 1261410197 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh you wrote CCBI. < 1261411754 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, yes. :-P < 1261411771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osaunders, and I wrote cfunge < 1261412582 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1261413469 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261414199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1261414975 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261415024 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-86-31-30-220.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261415112 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261415189 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261415257 0 :osaunders_!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261415502 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261415528 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261415631 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261415631 0 :osaunders_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :osaunders < 1261420928 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261424047 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-31-30-220.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261424616 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261424659 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should send Mike Riley an email, instead of putting it off. < 1261424853 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261424857 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261424925 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261425208 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261425470 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261425487 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sent and forwarded to AnMaster, in case he cares. < 1261425621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261425654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261426029 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Did you reply to Mike yourself? < 1261426039 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261426041 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hmm. < 1261426067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no < 1261426071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hmm what? < 1261426075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't run mail client atm < 1261426081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, that computer is running memtest < 1261426090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least 8 more hours < 1261426114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, btw I'm probably planning to switch from gentoo on my current desktop. Or upgrade it's components < 1261426115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You said hm recently. < 1261426123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is getting too slow nowdays < 1261426135 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1261426138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't keep up with the higher demands of new software < 1261426144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow did that scare him that much? < 1261426146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1261426146 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261426148 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Do you want me to forward my email to you too? < 1261426179 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Might as well, I suppose < 1261426185 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1261426189 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261426224 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261426237 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sent to deewiant@iki.fi. < 1261426276 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheers < 1261426289 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: From Gentoo to what? < 1261426306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, not sure, probably arch for desktop < 1261426311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, and it won't happen soon < 1261426316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becuase I have no time to do it < 1261426328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but since I'm planning to get a new harddrive anyway for it. probably then < 1261426346 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSD! SSD! < 1261426363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, too expensive. Not enough space. Plus it would probably be faster than the system bus ;P < 1261426379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, 500 GB SATA harddrive is what I will go for < 1261426381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more < 1261426394 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 160 GiB Intel SSD ~= $400 < 1261426403 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80 GiB = less < 1261426410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I can't live with 80 GB < 1261426413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 350 now < 1261426414 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adequate for a system drive. < 1261426417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is a bit cramped < 1261426438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's true < 1261426440 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /home goes elsewhere < 1261426461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, arch has fewer packages than gentoo < 1261426464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, 1 TB over 500 GB, no question. < 1261426480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, yeah I guess we have to move with the time < 1261426483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like $30 more for twice the space. < 1261426489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*remembers ibook with 3.2 GB harddrive* < 1261426491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: $400 for a drive is too expensive < 1261426504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it in SEK? < 1261426512 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2908 < 1261426519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah agreed < 1261426539 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's not a drive, it's a box that magically speeds up your computer more than most CPU upgrades. < 1261426559 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And makes it quieter and more reliable. < 1261426575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all relative < 1261426584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, it's mostly a drive. :-P < 1261426592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, 80 GiB is more like $250 < 1261426592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, it doesn't because you still need the hard-drive for data < 1261426609 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing I said was false. < 1261426619 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QuietER, not silent. < 1261426621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, yes that it makes your computer quieter < 1261426631 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReliableER, not reliable. < 1261426642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more reliable I agree < 1261426648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Think about it. < 1261426650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but: since now it is ssd + harddrive instead of harddrive < 1261426659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have the same noise + no noise < 1261426663 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HD accessed less = less noise. < 1261426666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and x+0=x < 1261426670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hm okay < 1261426671 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty damn obvious. < 1261426679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A generation 2 Intel X25-M would be 205 € here < 1261426683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but most accesses are from my data disk < 1261426685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience < 1261426696 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland has shite prices :P < 1261426705 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Absolutely false. < 1261426707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not far from your $250 < 1261426714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's $286 < 1261426722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well, I just based it on stats from my own system < 1261426742 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: OSs put shit in RAM after the first access < 1261426745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using iostat < 1261426745 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If all you do is manipulate ridiculously big RAW files, maybe. < 1261426758 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't know Euros. < 1261426761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no, you mean 16-bit per channel tiff! < 1261426770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, and HDR floating point encoded tiff < 1261426772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261426785 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also, the stats are that SSDs speed up common tasks by quite a lot. < 1261426800 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's science for you. < 1261426800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, such as compiling? < 1261426802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is common for me < 1261426813 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1261426815 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiling is mostly CPU-bound < 1261426816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I think what I buy should be based on my own usage stats :) < 1261426820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, exactly < 1261426838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anandtech or something tested it and they saw something like a 1% speedup with SSDs < 1261426838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, unless it is g++ in which case it is also "more ram than you have"-bound < 1261426845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiling Linux, IIRC < 1261426856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe Firefox or something. < 1261426868 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The majority of desktop tasks you perform are highly different in workings to common ones? < 1261426873 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that unlikely. < 1261426883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dm-2 0.14 1.06 1.01 379858 361568 # this is /home < 1261426892 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it was Pidgin < 1261426894 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=25 < 1261426895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dm-3 0.17 0.73 0.01 260700 2308 # This is /usr < 1261426902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :headers are: < 1261426904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Device: tps Blk_read/s Blk_wrtn/s Blk_read Blk_wrtn < 1261426915 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, the difference was essentially zero for HDD vs SSD < 1261426921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and / is: < 1261426922 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pidgin uses monotone as their VCS. No joke. < 1261426923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dm-0 0.00 0.01 0.00 4458 40 < 1261426926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even less < 1261426960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, see my point? < 1261426967 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261426972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/boot just has 5 read and 1 write < 1261427010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(estimated, since it is based on taking all the dm-* on sda and the values for sda and checking difference) < 1261427014 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631&p=20 reminds me why I don't care about SSDs enough at their current price range < 1261427018 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261427050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He starts three resource-intensive programs after boot and sees an improvement of 24 seconds < 1261427109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well that is great. My boot time is around 35 seconds on my desktop < 1261427111 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) I don't do that 2) Even if I would, I don't care if it takes two minutes. I can busy myself in the already-instantly-enough-starting firefox/thunderbird for much longer than that. < 1261427115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would make it almost instant < 1261427126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on my laptop it would BOOT BEFORE I PRESSED THE BUTTON < 1261427131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that is crazily fast < 1261427147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also slightly creepy < 1261427158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a computer being able to predict when I will turn it on < 1261427162 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't about boot time, it was about program startup time. < 1261427173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, don't ruin a good joke < 1261427181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since when does Firefox start anywhere near instantly? < 1261427185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also firefox is slow to start < 1261427194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konqueror is near instant < 1261427211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my Linux machine it's instantaneous enough for me. < 1261427228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, arch? hm not readahead then by default < 1261427611 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Booted into Linux; Thunderbird takes about 5 seconds to start, Firefox about 10. When typing the commands for the four or so programs I typically start right away, that's too fast - it interrupts my typing. < 1261427647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, make a script to do it < 1261427655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and name it ~/s or so < 1261427680 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282702.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261427682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I don't always start up the same things. < 1261427690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay ~/s 1 < 1261427701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for first configuration and so on < 1261427704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have 9 or less < 1261427714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise use base64 encoding of the number < 1261427729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1261427738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather just type the stuff :-P < 1261427749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, automation is good < 1261427759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an O(1) improvement < 1261427818 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261427850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, per time yes < 1261427853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261427862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well still a constant factor < 1261427883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could want to start more instances every time? < 1261427887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and write a script to do it < 1261427896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that is rather contrived < 1261427897 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I wouldn't < 1261427922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, use the ackermann function to calculate number of instances of <text editor of choice> to start ;P < 1261428013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One instance is enough, and I already have it bound to a shortcut key so I don't really need any more help there :-P < 1261428074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"meh" < 1261428086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. :-P < 1261428129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no you can't use that comment here < 1261428132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't work < 1261428280 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261428649 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261428660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIKE IS GOING TO KILL HIMSELF < 1261428672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Deewiant: forwarded < 1261428682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, what? < 1261428693 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I always right about these things >_< < 1261428710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, alas my mail client is now rebuilding so can't check right atm < 1261428716 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you just have that effect on people :-P < 1261428725 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... < 1261428727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah I said I was probably switching to arch, see!) < 1261428737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is too nasty < 1261428755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, sorry. < 1261428808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wow, did I just take ehird in defence or something?) < 1261428850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, so I finally went firefox 3.5 < 1261428861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm pissed off with it for the second time < 1261428872 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sure will be fun for his family and friends going through the shock and grief that will probably never fully go away. Unless he doesn't have any. < 1261428880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why the heck is it ignoring my scroll wheel < 1261428888 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what way < 1261428891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, try to contact them < 1261428893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AnMaster:^) < 1261428909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually it doesn't react to clicks either < 1261428917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the command to disable all extensions= < 1261428923 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And what can they do? < 1261428923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-safemode or something < 1261428925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run --help < 1261428930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, let see. < 1261428933 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He needs professional help. < 1261428940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, they can help him get that < 1261428942 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-81-109-210-2.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261428953 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if he consents. < 1261428962 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's suicidal, remember? < 1261428967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow: < 1261428969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this is embarrassing. < 1261428969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261428969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261428969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261428969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261428970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261428971 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do try to keep up. < 1261428972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1261428975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page. < 1261428987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a nice error < 1261428988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from firefox < 1261428998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it can be handy. < 1261429018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what can be? < 1261429048 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That error page. < 1261429052 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suicide is probably among the most selfish things you can do. < 1261429064 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed. < 1261429070 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. One way to find out for sure < 1261429070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, indeed < 1261429089 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Oh the comedy. < 1261429133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, sorry but I have to rush, you and Deewiant has to handle this with Mike Riley < 1261429145 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, what fun. < 1261429200 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! Suicide is illegal, let's tell the police! ...not. < 1261429270 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus's death was effectively a suicide < 1261429280 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's considered by some to be the most altruistic act ever < 1261429322 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike can't forgive sins. < 1261429326 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a martyr that can be reshaped into a religion, then Jesus and the God are essentially similar, or "homeomorphic", as topologists say < 1261429327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dying for the sins of mankind and dying because you're sad are two different things < 1261429331 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, neither could Jesus. < 1261429347 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-81-109-210-2.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261429356 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only because he didn't exist. < 1261429364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the argument could be made that the world would be a better place had Jesus not killed himself either :-P < 1261429400 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jesus asked, in essence, whether all sins that are not twisted and have no holes in them are homeomorphic to sodomy < 1261429417 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only the invisible pink unicorn did not have to become invisible so that we would not rape her. < 1261429436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor raped invisible pink unicorn < 1261429472 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike mentioned going to church once. Isn't suicide a sin? < 1261429481 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from martyrdom. < 1261429513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the brand of Christianity, I believe. < 1261429529 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261429543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_suicide < 1261429560 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_homotopy < 1261429574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Methinks you're on crack. < 1261429648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just fax. :P < 1261429722 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homoerotic homomorphy! < 1261429726 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261429765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is doing a binary search of extensions to find the broken one < 1261429777 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's breaking? < 1261429811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, clicking anything except scrollbar and menu bar, scrolling with scroll wheel, opening any dialog (including add-ons one) < 1261429838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261430022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the. binary search gives weird results. < 1261430031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is an interaction between two then < 1261430038 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many extensions do you have? < 1261430044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 6 or so iirc < 1261430052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not too bad < 1261430060 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can try all 64 combinations :-P < 1261430061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1261430091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh wait it seems at least two extensions is to blame < 1261430113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I localised the "can't open dialog" thing to google customize < 1261430120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is sadly unmaintained < 1261430131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so dropping that < 1261430160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean http://www.customizegoogle.com/ ? Works for me < 1261430167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oops, misremembered: 12 < 1261430182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4096 is a bit too many to try < 1261430210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1261430237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also found another issue: pasting with middle mouse button in address box broken < 1261430276 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works for me fine as well < 1261430305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I appear to have 26 extensions enabled and 4 disabled < 1261430318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it does indeed seem to be an interaction of sorts < 1261430338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec < 1261430345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a horrible suspcion < 1261430354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I was right < 1261430364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't deterministic < 1261430372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, restarting firefox sometimes fixes it < 1261430378 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Six, out of which one is disabled. (More data points is always good. What, you weren't compiling extension usage statistics after all?) < 1261430379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes introduces it < 1261430389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I didn't count the disabled ones < 1261430398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two disabled < 1261430417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the crap happened now < 1261430420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the add-ons dialog < 1261430439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scrollbar on wrong side and all the icons at the top replaced with empty white < 1261430455 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Now you managed to make me interested in whether such statistics exist < 1261430512 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-81-109-210-2.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261430515 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on a quick Googling, it appears not. < 1261430544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: addons.mozilla.org has their download statistics, but that's not really it. < 1261430546 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261430576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. I was thinking more in terms of "mean number of extensions installed" type things. < 1261430638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fizzie: either of you use tab mix plus? < 1261430642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about firebug? < 1261430650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. < 1261430657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1261430664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, adblock plus? noscript? < 1261430669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter. < 1261430673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The former on the N900. < 1261430705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: All four of those. < 1261430719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm: < 1261430725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[NoScript] [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE) [nsIPrefBranch2.removeObserver]" nsresult: "0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE)" location: "JS frame :: chrome://noscript/content/Main.js :: anonymous :: line 761" data: no] while disposing. < 1261430727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on terminal < 1261430728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks bad < 1261430739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only hit I can find is one in a russian forum < 1261430743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how useless < 1261430745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Firebug category, I do have the good old DOM Inspector installed. < 1261430752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it wasn't the same < 1261430756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just similar < 1261430849 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261430990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would it be a good idea to email Mike Riley. I don't know what to sya < 1261430991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say* < 1261431008 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wish < 1261431120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well customizegoogle alone works < 1261431124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so indeed an interaction < 1261431152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm does MKRY live in US? < 1261431159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so recommending professional help might be bad < 1261431160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1261431162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :costs and such < 1261431168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he can't afford it < 1261431205 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261431716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm it looks like noscript is bugged < 1261431742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1261431749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe resetting it's settings would help < 1261432622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no < 1261432630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't make head or tail out of this < 1261432857 0 :omologos!n=oscar@189.151.43.173 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261432882 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261432903 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You know, most people in the US have health insurance. < 1261432912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hm okay < 1261432935 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike probably quit his job if he's tying up loose ends though < 1261432942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hm < 1261432946 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So he probably doesn't have any < 1261432953 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not like he'd want it < 1261433032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Most people in the US have health insurance, sure. It doesn't necessarily cover everything, they will feel free to drop you at the slightest chance, and they will still charge you through the nose to use said insurance. < 1261433146 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION then goes and sees context, and is confused. < 1261433218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what are you confused about < 1261433246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is this Mike Riley person, anyways? < 1261433262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike Riley is planning suicide. Due to as he says "dealing with severe depression now for the past couple years and at this point I have pretty much given up" < 1261433268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the author of RC/Funge < 1261433278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1261433335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all things considered I think this is pretty bad to say the least < 1261433342 0 :ehirdiphone_!n=ehirdiph@82.132.139.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261433362 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The strategy most likely to work is to convince him to hold it off, "just to make sure he really wants to". < 1261433382 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything before that is just racing against an unpredictable clock. < 1261433383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone_, send a mail to him about it. You are better at English than I am. < 1261433403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone_, also you obviously know this somehow < 1261433408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than I do < 1261433414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about how to prevent it) < 1261433421 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I will. But I'm out of my league, I need to think about it. < 1261433430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone_, there might not be much time < 1261433447 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Half seeing what other successful preventers do, half logic. < 1261433448 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1261433449 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehirdiphone < 1261433464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never seen any such. < 1261433475 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, we probably gave at least a day or two. He did say he was tying up loose ends. < 1261433495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*have < 1261433503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, you don't have much timne < 1261433504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time* < 1261433510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we* < 1261433557 0 :omologos!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261433558 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261433592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably we need a group of people here to show support at some point. < 1261433615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I sign up. I guess Deewiant would too. < 1261433623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure who else < 1261433656 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He thinks he knows that you two hate him. It's a good idea, but it probably won't work without others as well. < 1261433688 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he doesn't want Rc/Funge to die with him maybe we could use that < 1261433713 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe ask him to do one final code cleanup ;-) < 1261433740 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does he write that? < 1261433749 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Email. < 1261433769 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does he ever come to this channel? < 1261433780 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He used to. < 1261433799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was his nick? < 1261433804 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe we could convince him to call the Good Samaritans < 1261433812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: MikeRiley < 1261433819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261433859 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The good samaritans are practically in the business of preventing suicide after all < 1261433897 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno how good suicide prevention services are < 1261433905 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like they can really do anything < 1261433925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: They can talk. That can be helpful. < 1261433930 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people don't really want to kill themselves < 1261433938 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik there's a significant number of people who complain to their doctor about suicidal thoughts < 1261433944 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then go and kill themselves < 1261433948 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike wouldn't do it if his depression was cured for instance < 1261433956 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Cry for help < 1261433969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the point is, the doctor can't do much < 1261433989 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps some sort of chemical intervention would be appropriate... < 1261433997 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doctors aren't specialists in that area... < 1261434010 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that would not work, long term. < 1261434055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emergency measure, at least < 1261434059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I talked to my dad about this. He is a professor in psychology. < 1261434082 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Psychology is 99% unscientific bullshit. < 1261434084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his tip: keep a discussion open, ask him about details, try to recommend medicine (unless he already tried it) < 1261434086 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But go on. < 1261434105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and try to get him to seek pro help < 1261434106 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need a degree to come up with that? :P < 1261434135 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, that's my plan at least. < 1261434136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well he said it was hard to know without details, like if it was season-dependant and such < 1261434137 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can't get any magical positivist solutions either so < 1261434193 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261434223 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi zzo38. Not the best time to pop in if you want esolangs talk. < 1261434237 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're trying to prevent a suicide... < 1261434263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, also: if he is Christian, try to get him to talk to a priest or such (could be easier in US than pro help) < 1261434278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was another suggestion < 1261434297 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Preists are not qualified for anything but bullshitology. < 1261434303 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again < 1261434305 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remind you < 1261434309 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it would help. < 1261434314 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is positivism getting you < 1261434350 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priests are not qualified for anything but religion and the religious service (unless, of course, they know other things too) < 1261434363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: priests perform the same function as psychologists, and they have many more centuries of experience of performing it. < 1261434371 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"THINGS FALL DOWN." "God" "Magic" "Well no science bring offered GOD IT IS" < 1261434378 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in addition to other things priests do, of course. < 1261434394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ugh shut up < 1261434400 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no science bring offered < 1261434426 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Typos! So comedical. < 1261434497 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, we're having an argument about nothing. < 1261434517 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're still retarded < 1261434525 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1261434529 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_%28breakfast_cereal%29 < 1261434542 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*HOW TO ARGUE ABOUT NOTHING* < 1261434605 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably if the guy "dealt with severe depression for the past couple years" he has already looked into medical solutions < 1261434617 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disagree. < 1261434632 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do whatever solution works for you, because some people it is different < 1261434636 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you asked why he is depressed < 1261434641 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dealt is being used in the sense of "carried on" IMO < 1261434644 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a good question to ask < 1261434653 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Thats my next step < 1261434660 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261434671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> I doubt it would help. <--- who knows. It might. It might not. < 1261434696 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In how many Forth systems are the WHILE and IF command interchangeable? And in which ones are WHILE and IF commands *not* interchangeable? < 1261434759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, asking if he tried medicine (SRRI ones) might be good < 1261434767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor < 1261434779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err make that SSRI of course < 1261434812 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Half Moon Books telephone is still busy < 1261434894 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder < 1261434928 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we've covered what to do. I'll reply tomorrow, hopefully, as I'm the one he's told. < 1261434938 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: You wonder... < 1261434944 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if, say, your family dies in a car crash, you girlfriend whom you love leaves you with your best friend, you get fired, and your house gets broken into and all the valuables stolen < 1261434947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, why not today? < 1261434962 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you would be rather upset by all that < 1261434964 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPhone typing is nit fun. < 1261434969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time is probably short. Could be hours in worst case, days in best case < 1261434971 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can you just take some SSRI and be happy again? < 1261434976 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament no < 1261434983 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not hours. < 1261434986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, there is a delay with SSRI on a few weeks. < 1261435008 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you start taking SSRI a few weeks in advance, then :) < 1261435020 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't make you happy < 1261435021 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He said that he's tying up loose ends. Rcfunge would not be the last item on the todo < 1261435071 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: but would you at least not be sad? < 1261435075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: that's a bit frightening honestly < 1261435082 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you would still be very sad < 1261435093 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just stops you from being able to cry < 1261435099 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh jolly < 1261435103 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fiddles with your sleep < 1261435113 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If SSRI removes such emotions, surely that is what depression is. So it won't. < 1261435118 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drugs don't really make the world go round (not yet anyway) < 1261435123 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Sounds awful. < 1261435129 0 :kwertii!n=kwertii@c-67-180-202-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261435148 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, masterpiece of scientific thinking there < 1261435171 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: In reference to? < 1261435179 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<soupdragon> and fiddles with your sleep < 1261435179 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> If SSRI removes such emotions, surely that is what depression is. So it won't. < 1261435206 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that much before that on my end. < 1261435210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reasoning: < 1261435212 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose clinical depression is different from grief and other related things < 1261435215 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1261435225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, consider that some people are helped by SSRI, depressions must be truly awful < 1261435243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well yes < 1261435244 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depression is usually referred to as lacking "happy" or "sad" < 1261435251 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v. science < 1261435259 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: maybe you should look up clinical depression on wikipedia < 1261435278 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's drugs like alchohol < 1261435283 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depressents < 1261435285 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it was back of the envelope rough approx reasoning < 1261435292 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha yes < 1261435302 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing "depression = sad" on the back of an envelope < 1261435310 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, nice, suicidal thoughts are actually one of possible side-effects of SSRI < 1261435314 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I did not say that. < 1261435318 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At all. < 1261435334 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said the opposite in fact < 1261435378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, as well as being used to prevent it. < 1261435395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I suspect it is complex < 1261435399 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no kidding < 1261435400 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw using my irc taps on an iPhone against a statement I made about an entire field of "legit" study < 1261435407 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a low blow < 1261435423 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1261435435 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter should be held to MUCH higher standards < 1261435438 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: so why are you replying tomorrow and not right now? < 1261435439 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261435474 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: iPhone typing is not so fun. My fingers aren't happy. < 1261435494 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... a great justification < 1261435503 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(mike commits suicide before tomorrow) = a very low number < 1261435503 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm impressed < 1261435529 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you'll just have to take that chance < 1261435531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, you are typing a lot on it now < 1261435539 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261435549 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are your thoughts about text-adventure games? < 1261435559 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll also note that what everyone else is doing mostly amounts to sneering on the sidelines < 1261435564 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fuck off < 1261435577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no. I have sent him a mail already < 1261435595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, you are better at English and such. < 1261435608 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take chances every day. quite a few with a lot higher probability than him offing himself before tomorrow < 1261435621 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do type a lot < 1261435623 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, say, being in a car < 1261435639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well < 1261435657 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: The iPhones screen isn't big enough to review a long email reasonably anyway < 1261435664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I do thank you for your concern, it is appreciated. In 39 years of dealing with the underlying problem there has been nobody who has been able to help. < 1261435668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, just got that reply < 1261435669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261435673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1261435693 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"...a really bad ingrown toenail!" < 1261435700 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invite him to IRC < 1261435702 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*out of place rimshot* < 1261435713 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't know this riley guy. Do you think it's important that ehirdiphone writes him an email today? < 1261435717 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261435725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well maybe. He is the author of RC/Funge < 1261435739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is for identification of who this is) < 1261435747 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is estimating the probability of him following through within days as high < 1261435753 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrationally < 1261435754 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean important for sake of the guy, not esolangs... < 1261435772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well of course. But I don't know. < 1261435779 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o lament < 1261435781 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*=ehirdiph@82.132.139.* < 1261435785 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the least i could do < 1261435811 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: see, I gave your fingers some relief < 1261435812 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should you do that < 1261435823 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invite him to IRC!!!!!!!!!!! < 1261435835 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one? < 1261435979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, :/ < 1261436003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I'm not sure that is a good idea. This requires well thought out lines. < 1261436016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll leave that to ehirdiphone < 1261436077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, as for it being irrationally. We just interpreted what tying up loose ends means differently < 1261436135 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261436254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: < 1261436260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asking for the underlying reason: < 1261436262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I would rather not say exactly, other than a very major birth defect. The depression comes and goes, usually gets worse each time." < 1261436271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh uh < 1261436289 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: have you asked him if he has tried drug treatments? < 1261436323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I used the word medicine, but yes < 1261436363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck why is ehirdiphone such a horrible little bitch < 1261436365 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pissed off < 1261436378 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament haha I think it's a great question < 1261436401 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261436811 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which IRC server software has,only two features I require, + type channels and channel logging. All of the others have too much features that I don't ever need < 1261436923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, could you please unban him < 1261436960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I don't know of any with + type channels except the one ircnet uses < 1261436966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it may be the only one < 1261436987 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he logged out anyway < 1261436997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, maybe because of you. < 1261437009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also he will be back tomorrow probably < 1261437041 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The ircnet one however has a lot of other features too. I am looking for one with only + type and not # or & channels, and many commands not needed such as KICK MODE NS CS WALLOPS etc < 1261437057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, afaik no such one exists < 1261437059 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how can I make all channels logging by the server, I can add a new command called LOG command < 1261437082 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However.. < 1261437086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, also without kick and mode it won't follow the RFC that defines the IRC protocol < 1261437090 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you ever play a text-adventure game? < 1261437097 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text-adventure < 1261437099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know, it will be incomplete < 1261437101 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIKE < 1261437126 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But those commands are not needed in this case < 1261437128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, it happened that I played colossal cave < 1261437139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which iirc is the original one < 1261437167 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes it is original one but also I ask, if any newer ones, or if you ever tried to write one, etc < 1261437228 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261437245 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test < 1261437276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, never tried to write one. < 1261437279 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: OK < 1261437280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, wb < 1261437305 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Havr you asked whether he has seeked prof help for the depression not the defect? < 1261437305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, forwarded last mail from him to you < 1261437320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no < 1261437330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261437337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not have been clear which I meant < 1261437345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, see forwarded mail < 1261437350 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K < 1261437353 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261437408 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261437414 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anmaster did not receive < 1261437438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, strange < 1261437454 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brb going off iPhone < 1261437456 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261437459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, Penguinofthegods AT gmail.com? < 1261437462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261437467 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b *!*=ehirdiph@82.132.139.* < 1261437480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, long live dynamic ip < 1261437495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a huge range too < 1261437510 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes but what a little bitch < 1261437536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I disagree. I this case I have no reason to argue with him < 1261437679 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like their messages, use the SILENCE command to block them < 1261437716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, /ignore. iirc freenodes doesn't have server side silence < 1261437737 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the freenode servers do have SILENCE command < 1261437788 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Send the SILENCE command and then you can see whether or not your server supports it or not. < 1261437796 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SILENCE MORTAL < 1261437853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe freenode does then < 1261437856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, only some? < 1261437861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds very very strange < 1261437896 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, only some. I know that sometimes when I connect it is valid command, and sometimes it is invalid. It seems to depend which server < 1261437931 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it is possible to select which server you want directly, but you can try < 1261438043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well of course it is. just use the host name for the specific one < 1261438048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see which one you are on in the motd < 1261438411 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to use the MOTD to see which one you are on < 1261438435 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just sending any unknown command or the SILENCE command, or various others, will tell you which server you are on in the sender field of the reply < 1261438689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, in a proper irc client you don't see that. It being abstracted away :) < 1261438703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, anyway you can use the host name to connect to < 1261438721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a server might be removed or such in the future < 1261438803 0 :snakbar!i=snakbar@nor75-11-82-66-226-226.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261438815 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstracted away?? What do you mean, of course it should tell you who the sender of the message is < 1261438833 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see it on my computer, at least (in dark cyan) < 1261438857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, yes it tells me it is the server < 1261438865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't usually need to worry what server < 1261438900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells me it is the server by using a grey * in front of the line < 1261438913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is very compact < 1261438928 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, it is very compact < 1261438930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saves space < 1261438970 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I like the way I have it on my computer, that is why I made it like this. This way it will display all of the fields, in the colors according to which field it is < 1261438980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean with that O? < 1261438998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261439005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each to his or her own :) < 1261439024 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261439028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally I'm happy with a conventional irc client after some modification of settings < 1261439032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like lots of features < 1261439038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't mind a few that I don't use < 1261439041 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which settings? And which features? < 1261439045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I use the majority) < 1261439062 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but which settings and features, specifically? < 1261439064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, settings could be some of the formatting strings, like how it should align nicks < 1261439079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it right-align against column 9 < 1261439089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are wider they overflow into the text < 1261439096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that makes the text quite readable < 1261439109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, small stuff like that. < 1261439119 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261439123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"never send a version reply" of course too < 1261439144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :default quit message change. some aliases < 1261439154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I set /aa to mean "allserv away < 1261439164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/"/ < 1261439175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allserv means "send once to each server I'm connected to" < 1261439188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this lets me set away status quickly < 1261439230 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The client I use supports some of these features. /SET ANSWER is used to tell it whether or not to autoreply to VERSION and stuff < 1261439230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, oh and where I want to have the channel tree view < 1261439247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for server and channels under it < 1261439249 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.233.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261439252 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/SET FORMAT turns on formatting by control codes or off to make it display the control codes themself, instead < 1261439252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wb < 1261439255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, got the mail? < 1261439260 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/SET SHOWTIME makes it show the time < 1261439288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, not the kind of options I would set. Also are they saved? < 1261439303 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And /MAC can be used to set macros, including the things you have described, such as QUIT message and AWAY and stuff < 1261439308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and more important: will it support multiple servers and handle hundreds of channels easily < 1261439316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope < 1261439317 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they are not saved, but you can store them in the configuration file and then it will be automatically set < 1261439322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, weird. < 1261439329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I can paste the new lines in /msg < 1261439334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dcc it if you want < 1261439372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, OS X is so comfy coming from an iPhone. < 1261439397 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, it can't support many channels simultaneously currently, although you can have multiple servers in multiple windows. Possibly I can add a way to create a new window with the same server and different filters, and create a macro to redirect each channel to a separate window, maybe in the next version < 1261439464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I don't think I will use your irc client anyway < 1261439474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly because I'm happy with what I use already < 1261439480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly because we have different goals < 1261439480 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's OK < 1261439496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> Damn, OS X is so comfy coming from an iPhone. <-- I thought iphone ran OS X. Well a scaled down version of it. < 1261439520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a totally different UI, yes. < 1261439527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fair enough < 1261439536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's remarkably easy to do research and stuff on for something so small. < 1261439545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a real Mac kind of blows it out of the water a billion times. < 1261439551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, be glad that you can use apps from elsewhere than OS X AppStore ;P < 1261439574 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course, the command /SET AUTOPONG is useful too < 1261439576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I bet a real linux system would as well. < 1261439588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it would. < 1261439590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never contested that, < 1261439592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that. < 1261439598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I don't think it should be an option. Rather always have it on. There is no point in not having it < 1261439608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I didn't mean to imply you did < 1261439612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPhone is pretty flawless as a mobile device and does remarkably well for non-mobile things; that's all I'm saying. < 1261439617 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a full computer is, yeah, better. < 1261439621 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a few people who turn it off sometimes (I don't know what client, though) < 1261439672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, only reason I can think of is ircd developing and testing some weird bug related to it < 1261439679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I would be using netcat anyway < 1261439721 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I have seen is some people prefer to turn off autopong instead of quitting < 1261439734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, pretty strange < 1261439737 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know why < 1261439758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a good way to try to not look as if they quit in a row or such < 1261439834 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do your IRC clients mask the password? I have heard that some people say their client won't mask the password < 1261439842 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know why? < 1261439857 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully, if it doesn't do so, you can modify the software or tell the people who wrote it to fix it < 1261440187 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------" < 1261440772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I could really do with 2560x1440 pixels of screen real estate. < 1261442513 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261442674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nodejs.org/ this is cool beans < 1261443780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/clear < 1261443880 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261443966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1261443970 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1279282702.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1261444146 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261444754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261445337 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261446242 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261447097 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261447121 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261447387 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know where i can find sources of bacical linux commands like grep, cat, ls and stuff < 1261447514 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261447564 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/ < 1261447596 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=grep&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1#options < 1261447611 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/grep/ < 1261448088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( gnu tools r teh sux < 1261448099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: look at the bsd implementations or sth < 1261448111 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU > U < 1261448154 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you very much < 1261448363 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261448369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnu is waaaay inferior to unix, specifically by breaking the very underpinning of unix and then pretending it's still there < 1261449345 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261450710 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261451014 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean, underpinning? < 1261451142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as "backbone" if you know that idiom < 1261451270 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-212.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261451290 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope :p < 1261451401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: basically... the underlying concepts < 1261451411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing that makes it all work in the way it does, the unifying idea < 1261451418 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261451438 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying that linux is not an Unix system? < 1261451467 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar GNU is not unix < 1261451506 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes ^^ that's right < 1261451565 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1261451583 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit, i'm going to try bsd < 1261451603 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSDs something different < 1261451607 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1261451611 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not unix too ? < 1261451612 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1261451614 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261451628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakbar: when i say unix i mean the unix philosophy < 1261451645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tools that do only one task, that are the same from a terminal or piped to another process, etc < 1261452727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD is, in fact, UNIX. < 1261452824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Linux isn't a UNIX system, it's just a decent kernel that can be the base of a GNU system. < 1261452826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIU < 1261452828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very catchy acronym < 1261452858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But accurate. < 1261452885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsd is eunuchs < 1261453136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIE? < 1261453199 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261453817 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261454297 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261454781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261454781 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1261455072 0 :snakbar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitte" < 1261457065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ihttp://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 < 1261457068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 < 1261457070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gotta sleep now < 1261457096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261458040 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261458066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261458085 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261458408 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1261458427 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261459289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261459291 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261459354 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261461389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261461858 0 :augur_!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261462786 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"goshdarnit." < 1261462796 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261462882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261463781 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261464131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261466737 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261468799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261468800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261470748 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261472403 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-217.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261473253 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261476615 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-217.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261476656 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261476663 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261477174 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-0-217.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261478605 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-120-150.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261479409 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261479454 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261481329 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261481405 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1261482393 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261482476 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-81-109-210-2.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261483843 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261484313 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1261484316 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie? < 1261484434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't seen any fizzies around. < 1261484441 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Dead pixels in the sky." < 1261484498 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261484503 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it you that made fungot? < 1261484504 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: fnord anyway. :p what a great language for fnord. < 1261484538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261484585 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1261484593 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sources you recommend on lerning Befunge or any other esolang < 1261484597 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz i want to make a minecraft server.. < 1261484600 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..yeah, in an esolang < 1261484671 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything you recommend < 1261484698 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i could code a network extension, dont worry) < 1261484765 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I've ever actually used any specific sources, mostly just the language specifications themselves. There's not that much "training material" for esolangs, I don't think. Except maybe for INTERCAL there are some more tutorialistic things. < 1261484778 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for Befunge-93 < 1261484780 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one < 1261484783 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also < 1261484783 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@24.191.97.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261484787 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what esolang would you recommend < 1261484789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except befunge < 1261484789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if any < 1261484922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's more of a matter of personal preference. It's not usually the point with these languages to start thinking so much of their suitability to the task at hand. < 1261484965 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261484970 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll attempt to mod Piet then < 1261484974 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least i can have a work of ART < 1261484989 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How coincidental: I had partially already written this: "I would love to do something overcomplicated in one of the image-based languages, but that's just me." < 1261485012 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not just you < 1261485013 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDD < 1261485090 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the graphical ones < 1261485101 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not counting BF mods) < 1261485105 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's Piet, Piet-Q, Deltaplex, Omegaplex... < 1261485214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycelium, though I don't think it's an especially elegant one. < 1261485244 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ow < 1261485385 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would do it in Piet < 1261485391 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm scared of the network layer < 1261485647 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the network layer any easy in Befunge-98? < 1261485751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's specific extensions for networking in Funge-98; SOCK and SCKE and whatever the newfangled ones were that people were developing to fix the deficiencies of those two. < 1261485778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're pretty reasonable, as far as those things go. < 1261485781 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261486187 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just out of kicks < 1261486206 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be the weirdest language (with network facilities or a way to add them in even if adding new instructions) to make a server in? < 1261486390 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, brainfuck can be given server capacities with PSOX < 1261486397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just setting up some.. pipes thingy < 1261486952 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261487199 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261487231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I think I beat you at "crazy things to do with hugin" < 1261487248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't aware that we had a competition going on. < 1261487252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a photo of an xmas tree composed out of over 40 pictures < 1261487260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have now ;P < 1261487273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will upload said tree in a minute < 1261487389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I just need to convert it from a 16-bit per channel tiff with AdobeRGB to a 8-bit per channel jpeg with sRGB < 1261487395 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261487401 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261487435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There was quite heavy snowfall today, so I took a picture out of that same window-at-work to show how dramatically reduced the visibility was: http://zem.fi/~fis/tkk2.jpg → http://zem.fi/g2/d/8542-1/20091222_002.jpg < 1261487518 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just one, didn't bother taking the full view this time.) < 1261487527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the second is higher res? < 1261487540 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second is directly from the phone with no scalings. < 1261487552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sort of thing that was the source material for the first. < 1261487565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, funny gimp bug: < 1261487614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The image 'xmas_tree_8bit.tif' has an embedded color profile:\n sRGB built-in\nConvert the image to RGB working space (sRGB built-in)?" < 1261487626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identity conversion! < 1261487784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, uploading... < 1261487818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes that is quite reduced visibility < 1261487826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://omploader.org/vMzIxZQ/xmas_tree_8bit.jpg < 1261487885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not a panorama because there would be way parallax without a panoramic head. < 1261487903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm considering getting one maybe) < 1261487938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The magical balls of light look nice. < 1261488199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh? < 1261488218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh around the electric lamps thingies? < 1261488222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261488237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. They look like special effects for glowy magic things in a fantasy whatever. < 1261488242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261488304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can see how low the noise is when you zoom the ceiling btw. That is because for each shutter speed I took 4 photos and merged them to denoise (see the panotools wiki for more info on that, you use enfuse for it) < 1261488335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all the "denoised" pictures were merged into the final HDR image < 1261488356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sadly the reduction to 8 bits removed some fine details from the lamp in the background < 1261488362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a rather nice pattern on it < 1261488405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that effort for a christmas tree?-) < 1261488493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261488596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have anything very photogenic around to play Hugin/panotools tricks with. < 1261488606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261488611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no xmas tree? < 1261488638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, the cat would probably just try to eat it and/or the decorations. It does that to anything new. < 1261488660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cat would be a good subject for photography experiments, but it doesn't quite understand the "staying still" thing. < 1261488667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261488700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can extract a bit of HDR-ness from raw images usually. Generally there is slightly more than 8 bits per channel in them < 1261488707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example mine has 12 bits per channel < 1261488748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think that's what my camera shoots too. < 1261488858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, "dcraw -i -v" doesn't say about bit depths; just the image size, filter pattern and some strange multiplier values. < 1261488871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I use ufraw < 1261488912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice preview thing and such and when you are happy with the settings you can save a script and use it to ufraw-batch (since you want same white balance for all images in the HDR merge and such) < 1261488912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've used the ufraw GUI, but I'm not at home right now and didn't want to bother with X forwarding. < 1261488922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261488950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway for editing there are two options basically: cinepaint and krita < 1261488956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since gimp doesn't do more than 8 bits per channel < 1261488996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, cinepaint's what used to be film-gimp? Didn't know that. < 1261489025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I haven't tried cinepaint, but from what I heard it is not a very nice experience when it comes to the user-interface < 1261489039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I stuck with krita, which isn't too fun either < 1261489050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but which at least has an ubuntu package) < 1261489112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh btw I have been using ethernet over firewire recently. Because working with 70 MB+ tiffs isn't fun over 100 mbit ethernet < 1261489173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reason I do it over network is that laptop is faster but the desktop monitor is better. However the laptop's graphics is unable to drive my desktop monitor in it's highest resolution. I guess 1400x1050 isn't very common) < 1261489307 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1261489312 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web servers run on everything these days < 1261489320 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am going to run a server on a pokemon mini < 1261490341 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261493733 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261494747 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261495692 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, go for it < 1261495708 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have IR? < 1261495724 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if youre serious < 1261495725 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :donate one < 1261495732 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, and no, wasn't serious :P < 1261495739 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPU 8 bit, 4 MHz custom < 1261495743 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1261495749 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people ran web servers on a PIC < 1261495758 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an Atari < 1261495759 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a C64 < 1261495764 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C64 is 4 times slower than this < 1261495771 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it reliably runs webservers < 1261495821 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I wouldn't do it < 1261496293 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-0-92-246.leed.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261497363 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261497371 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adamd_ < 1261497377 0 :adamd_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261497448 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261497678 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261497715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/m4w/1520403262.html < 1261497971 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261498102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaand http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg < 1261498238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For Mac, a complete rewrite in Cocoa brings an Unified Toolbar, native buttons and scrollbars, multi-touch gestures (try 3-Finger Swipe Left/Right or Pinch to zoom) and a bunch of other small details. We also added Growl notification support." < 1261498240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Opera. < 1261498248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did... did you just do the right, difficult thing, and become respectable? < 1261498254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, uh... wow. < 1261498430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey, the icon is less horribly ugly now too. < 1261498628 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261498641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: you're now less ridiculously silly for using opera! < 1261498668 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1261498680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For Mac, a complete rewrite in Cocoa brings an Unified Toolbar, native buttons and scrollbars, multi-touch gestures (try 3-Finger Swipe Left/Right or Pinch to zoom) and a bunch of other small details. We also added Growl notification support." < 1261498683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they finally came to their senses < 1261499070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261499169 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261499280 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261499280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Dead socket < 1261499584 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261499642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, any news? < 1261499658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no reply—worryingly, but then not everybody spends all day on the computer < 1261499666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if they're not preparing to kill themselves < 1261499669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1261499745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261499757 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261500074 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261500111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How many atheists are there on /r/atheism? Upvote to count yourselves (i created this throwaway name so it won't affect my karma)." < 1261500111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP Reddit's Lack of Having Completely, Utterly and Irreversibly Jumped the Shark, 2005—2009 < 1261500340 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I unsubscribed from /r/atheism a long time ago, problem solved! < 1261500358 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For definitions of "solved" close enough to "ignored" < 1261500361 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am bored guys < 1261500368 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me something to do < 1261500379 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :involvig either esolangs or old computers < 1261500382 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :involving* < 1261500557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Yess, but the cancer, it doth spread. < 1261500576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Take over Rc/Funge! Wait, no. Don't do that. < 1261500602 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not create Infinitunge < 1261500618 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an infinite number of dimensions < 1261500626 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1261500628 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll do it right now < 1261500654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol has experience with infinite-dimensional things < 1261500663 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1261500665 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shh, im coding < 1261500683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not have to listen. < 1261500743 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Popping infinite scalars from the stack when you want a vector will be fun. < 1261500767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: befunge-93 or -98? < 1261500783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suggest adapting -93 because the "meat" of the problems you'll face will be in the -93 stuff < 1261500795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, make it 80x24x80x24x80x24x... :-D < 1261500801 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261500806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whyever not? < 1261500808 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's infinite in all directions < 1261500809 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.E. < 1261500815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's boring, asiekierka — because < 1261500818 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InfxInfxInfxInfxInfxInfxInf... < 1261500820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you don't have to use the dimensions to be TC < 1261500832 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever < 1261500835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's 80x24x80x24x..., not only does it respect Befunge heritage, < 1261500835 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm done < 1261500843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it means you have to fiddle with the dimensions to get TCness < 1261500856 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well too late < 1261500856 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said < 1261500858 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i finished coding it < 1261500863 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should work on every PC < 1261500869 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm worried about RAM requirements though... D: < 1261500917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way you coded a working version in that time < 1261500921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are many subtle issues to address < 1261500934 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1261500939 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine a child with undiagnosed ADHD < 1261500941 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on caffeine < 1261500946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That "upvote to count yourselves" thing isn't irreversible. Thank God that humans are capable of leaving sites after they used to frequent it. :P < 1261500954 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.exe < 1261500957 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could be an infinite amount of dimensions that you can't actually access < 1261500959 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here you go < 1261500987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"undiagnosed ADHD", AKA "I can be as annoying as I want, I have a mental illness don't you see! I don't have to change anything!" < 1261501005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's been steadily increasing since the epoch < 1261501014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261501016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: It should work on every PC running Windows, you mean. < 1261501022 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261501026 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Wine on Linux < 1261501026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a low percentage of PCs in this channel. < 1261501027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know if it is ADHD if it is undiagnosed? < 1261501029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In conclusion, source of GTFO. < 1261501030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just curious < 1261501035 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use Wine on Linux < 1261501039 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm not offering source code < 1261501040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Source or GTFO. < 1261501040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because people on the internet think they know about things like that < 1261501041 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i'm evil < 1261501055 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the source code is so advanced < 1261501060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have asperger's syndrome! Therefore it's ALL YOUR FAULT! I CAN'T HELP BEING A SMARMY RETARD!" < 1261501061 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaking it would destroy the universe < 1261501068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: the door is that way → < 1261501071 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have asperger's syndrome! < 1261501074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are not interested < 1261501075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw you commented on bad picture yesterday. I'm creating a better one. Macro photography rocks < 1261501076 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore it's ALL YOUR FAULT! < 1261501076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no you don't < 1261501080 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CAN'T HELP BEING A SMARMY RETARD! < 1261501084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yoou can < 1261501087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you < 1261501090 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just said i cant < 1261501097 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, i will leak the source code < 1261501098 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geh < 1261501113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have actual autism, you cock. Don't claim pretend Asperger's syndrome. :P < 1261501147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.pas - i think my FTP connection glitched, not sure if it works < 1261501186 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not reuploading it < 1261501193 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i made enough space-time distortions doing it once < 1261501205 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one happens per each byte < 1261501217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pascal must be pretty impressive, to make language implementations in two lines. < 1261501224 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said < 1261501229 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my FTP connection died for a second < 1261501233 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the file might be corrupt < 1261501246 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would reupload it < 1261501250 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... yeah < 1261501253 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too lazy < 1261501268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can we all agree that asiekierka is an idiot, socially retarded and annoying? < 1261501268 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also spaec-tiem distortionz < 1261501272 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261501284 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY OKAY < 1261501288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that not only does his program probably not work due to the subtle issues required to be resolved to get infinite-dimensional Befunge to work, < 1261501290 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WILL UPLOAD THAT SOURCE CODE < 1261501295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's probably a retarded prank that asiekierka thinks is funny? < 1261501300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the door is over there? < 1261501302 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think it's funny < 1261501345 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/inffunge.pas < 1261501354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes. I will note only one of the three has anything to do with Asperger's syndrome (well, unless you mean "common traits in people who self-diagnose") < 1261501378 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1261501381 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was meant to work like this: < 1261501384 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ Go up < 1261501386 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< Go left < 1261501388 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Go right < 1261501390 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v Go down < 1261501393 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something) < 1261501403 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h - Increase the number of the dimension operating on < 1261501408 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l - Decrease it < 1261501410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asperger's syndrome today is complete and utter rubbish; a label used by society to mean "person we do not like; for he is less emotionally crazy and more intelligent than us". < 1261501426 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a - Move left in the dimension you're on < 1261501431 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d - Move right in the dimension you're on < 1261501431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps Hans Asperger's original work was sane and reasonable; but what we mean when we say "Asperger's" today is a complete lie. < 1261501446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: that way you can only work in finite dimensionns < 1261501447 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 100 years < 1261501450 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone will have Aspergers < 1261501451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's arbitrary dimensions, not infinite < 1261501460 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Infinite = 65535 on 16-bit platforms < 1261501465 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you CANT GO MOAR < 1261501474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Hans Asperger's work described a disorder similar to autism, with a few differing features. < 1261501505 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as most people with the syndrome being of average or above average intelligence, and a lack of a delay in speech. < 1261501525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd also argue that "light" autism is different from "severe" autism, and only the latter is actually a condition as opposed to simply another combination of neural structure + personality. < 1261501544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Zefram (yes, the nomic Zefram) wrote a fun little thing on this... http://www.fysh.org/~zefram/allism/allism_intro.txt) < 1261501567 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's asiekierkism, too < 1261501574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still astounds me what a ridiculously bad idea empathy is. < 1261501576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow. < 1261501586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/wdcUK.jpg trippy < 1261501587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd note that any psychologist worth his/her salt only gives a flying fuck about a disorder if it actually causes problems. < 1261501616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and that people suck. That's a nice thing to note, as well. < 1261501622 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261501626 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261501675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And uses actual neural properties instead of the Holy Lord of Let's Make This a Disorder, the DSM. < 1261501675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> http://i.imgur.com/wdcUK.jpg trippy <-- a pitty it doesn't join up well for the lower picture < 1261501700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And by that correct definition, the percentage of psychologists worth their salt is less than 10%. < 1261501701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it isn't perfect for the upper image, but much better) < 1261501725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Psychology is almost entirely based on consensus, not evidence; rubbish, not science. < 1261501728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's a damn shame. < 1261501751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Quite. < 1261501755 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like the same idea as http://isnt.autistics.org/ < 1261501762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It links to it at the end. < 1261501771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But allism has some truth behind the joke. < 1261501792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the effects of allism are negative. < 1261501971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's also possible that you thought many-worlds means "all the worlds I can imagine exist" and that you decided it'd be cool if there existed a world where Jesus is Batman, therefore many-worlds is true no matter what the average physicist says. In this case you're just believing for general contrarian reasons, and you're probably more likely to believe in homeopathy as well." < 1261501971 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261502159 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe there's a world where i'm not an idiot < 1261502198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That world is one in which you are not you. < 1261502223 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the many-worlds theory I believe < 1261502234 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that when anything happens at any given microsecond < 1261502241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut up. < 1261502248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are about to demonstrate your severe physics-related ignorance. < 1261502250 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe splits into two: the version where it happened and the version where opposite did < 1261502255 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to believe the many-worlds theory, but not for any good logical reason. I just hate the implications for time travel < 1261502262 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "i believe" i mean "i like and could be useful for games" < 1261502271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many worlds is the only thing that would make time travel possible. < 1261502420 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261502458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think *one* of the problem with the many universe stuff is that people have a problem remembering the difference between a potential phase-space and "actually exists" < 1261502461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many worlds is the only interpretation that leaves travelling backwards feasible... < 1261502507 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about something like Nomikov's self consistency princible, or whatever it's called < 1261502512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Beware; Sgeo's next argument will be "but it means that I will never see my REAL parents again if I ever travel in time!!!" < 1261502527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, of course, dualism. < 1261502532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(travelling forward in time is, of course, merely a matter of relativity) < 1261502537 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it'll be possible to travel to the other worlds if many-worlds are true < 1261502541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo becomes scientifically absurd in T-10 seconds < 1261502551 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can see myself as not an idiot and destroy the multiverses! < 1261502570 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by paradoxingous < 1261502585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the Novikov self-consistency principle does not help at all < 1261502599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: As per chaos theory, more or less ANYTHING you do back in time will change the future. < 1261502605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus violating the principle. < 1261502627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ergo, all time travel beyond perhaps sending a microscopic, instantly-evaporating black hole into a backwater region of space would be impossible. < 1261502699 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about sending your soul back in time < 1261502701 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that possible < 1261502720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no such thing as a soul. < 1261502727 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1261502732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, truths. < 1261502738 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1261502750 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairies exist, too < 1261502786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does Russell's Teapot. < 1261502804 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet the FSM put it there < 1261502845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn, heathen! < 1261502852 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was ME! < 1261502860 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heretics < 1261502886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It depends on how you define "soul". < 1261502912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soul, n. a word used to signal that the person referring to it as existing is a dualist. < 1261502920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dualist: see idiot < 1261502943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The exact state of everything within your body that affects the nervous system" might be a usable definition of "soul". < 1261502955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, said definition is rarely, if ever, used. < 1261502969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brain + spine is probably enough to count as your "soul" < 1261502989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, probably. < 1261503005 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain + quantum stuff < 1261503030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Said quantum stuff that is relevant is entirely in the brain... < 1261503062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quantum stuff" < 1261503068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DING DING DING QUANTUM MYSTICIST DETECTED < 1261503076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISPOSAL MECHANISM INITIALISATING < 1261503080 0 :kwertii!n=kwertii@c-67-180-202-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261503086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*INITIALISING < 1261503132 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261503134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I seem to recall that the functioning of neurons did kinda rely upon quantum mechanics (though I may be wrong in that). ... Of course, "rely upon quantum mechanics" is quite different from "QUANTUM MEANS ITS TRUE." < 1261503134 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INITALISATING < 1261503153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything relies upon quantum mechanics. :P < 1261503169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... True. :P < 1261503230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyways... < 1261503300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda meant something like "work in ways only explained by quantum mechanics, not by classical mechanics". < 1261503384 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1261503402 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say that [random word] is quantum mechanics < 1261503439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x is quantum mechanics" really doesn't mean anywhere near as much as people think it does. < 1261503465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh no, the probabilistic effects of individual particles makes a difference!" < 1261503697 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261503712 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261503714 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261503763 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261503808 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, ehird < 1261503819 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you define a soul as a sign that a person is a dualist < 1261503825 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in an idiot < 1261503835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think a soul exists you're a dualist, obviously < 1261503835 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a soul dualist (they believe more than 1 soul exists in a body which is insane) < 1261503836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the definition < 1261503843 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is he a dualist dualist < 1261503845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual = 2, not >1 < 1261503846 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an idiot dualist < 1261503852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, he's asiekierka being annoying < 1261503855 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soul dualism or a dualistic soul concept is a range of beliefs that a person has two (or more) kinds of souls. < 1261503911 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261503914 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i took it from wikipedia < 1261503917 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not bother googling < 1261504003 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you're right re: quantum brain stuff. cf Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR#The_quantum_level < 1261504055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that's not the same thing < 1261504076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :penrose just hates the idea of an algorithmic brain < 1261504084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq was just talking about how neurons physically work < 1261504120 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: their theory talks about that, too. they postulate that microtubules in neurons, whose function is unknown, actually conduct quantum-level calculations < 1261504162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like grasping at straws to avoid a deterministic, algorithmic mind. < 1261504163 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on the observation that information propagates through the brain far faster than a chemically mediated neural network would allow < 1261504380 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261504493 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if people do have algorithmic minds, then 99.999999999% of them are seriously broken. < 1261504508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fallacy < 1261504516 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :observation < 1261504516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minds are algorithmic != minds can be irrational < 1261504524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithmic does not mean we are bayesian rationalists. < 1261504525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##philosophy < 1261504528 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say that it implied a contradiction < 1261504533 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just an empirical observation < 1261504543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our minds are not broken, they are just adjusted to different things than we might want them to be < 1261504578 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: how do the Goedel and Tarski incompleteness theorems fit into your model? < 1261504629 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we don't have a deterministic, algorithmic mind, then we have a random mind. I don't see how quantum randomness is likely to affect something on the scale of neurons, though < 1261504638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gödel, Escher, Bach had some stuff about that, positing that sentience arises from Gödel's incompleteness theorem < 1261504646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure about that < 1261504648 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, do something < 1261504653 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this philosophy talk hurts < 1261504658 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my own bra---oh wait < 1261504663 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll encourage them to talk more < 1261504670 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an attempt to make my brain blow up < 1261504686 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: sadly this stuff is mildly on-topic < 1261504689 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone would prefer to discuss brainfuck coding, I will yield the floor :p < 1261504700 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261504709 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to discuss PSOX (*everyone runs*) < 1261504715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: if you hate 90% of what goes on in this channel why do you stay :) < 1261504737 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking for better excuses to ban you all < 1261504758 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION laments the fact that lament wants to ban us < 1261504789 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there must be an op here stupid < 1261504833 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: essentially, Tarski proved a more general version of Goedel, that any logically coherent system capable of defining its own syntax is incapable of defining semantic notions such as "truth" itself, necessarily requiring extrinsic stipulations. This would seem to imply that a purely logical and deterministically algorithmic brain is impossible, given that we have such notions. < 1261504968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said that are brains are purely logical? < 1261504979 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ehird < 1261504983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deterministically algorithmic does not imply logical < 1261505006 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: interesting, please clarify how a system can be deterministic without being logical < 1261505046 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION might have misread. Thought that you were implying that people were logical, not the system < 1261505056 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505067 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh my other connection is lagging out < 1261505069 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, my own personal position is that people are mostly irrational :) < 1261505104 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see /msg < 1261505125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1261505133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: fizzie is an op stupid < 1261505137 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: what does rationality have to do with logic < 1261505143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everythingg. < 1261505146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Everything < 1261505147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: this channel needs more than one op stupid < 1261505153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261505158 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: euh? < 1261505158 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thanks to offtopic derailers like thou < 1261505161 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: and mii < 1261505172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: except op powers are very rarely used < 1261505184 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a T-shirt that says "What does rationality have to do with logic" now < 1261505189 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: well what does it? < 1261505200 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: please define rationality and see for yourself that it's not much. < 1261505215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationality is applied logic < 1261505243 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: according to commonly used definitions and mores, ehird is correct, rationality is logic applied to some decisionmaking process < 1261505279 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: etymologically, rationality is "that which has to do with ratios", which are (logically defined) mathematical constructs < 1261505393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION becomes a fervent supporter of fractionism < 1261505409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: what does it mean "to apply logic to a process"? < 1261505411 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you're the one who told us to fuck off to ##philosophy < 1261505430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you dragging us into less and less meaningful and concrete realms? < 1261505455 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please everyone calm down, mkay? < 1261505474 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now shake each other hands. Without holding one of those prank buzzers < 1261505486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO. WE HATE BEING CALM. < 1261505500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Prank buzzers? < 1261505507 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yeah < 1261505512 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the correct name < 1261505517 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: to make an attempt to analyze a process in an internally consistent (i.e. not self-contradictory) manner consistent with the rules of logic.. < 1261505518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. I'll use an industry-grade buzzer. < 1261505518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: little electric shock thingy you hold in your hand < 1261505527 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no you don't ;P < 1261505537 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: BUT. WHAT. IS. "LOGIC" < 1261505555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: well, ok. You don't need any notions of truth for that. You just need a notion of consistency. < 1261505559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer lethal buzzeers. < 1261505559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes, I know. < 1261505561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WHAT IS A "CONTRADICTION" — REALLY < 1261505562 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261505565 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*n=ehird@91.105.101.* < 1261505566 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261505580 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: who said you need a notion of truth? :p < 1261505594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261505596 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you did, when you were talking about Tarski < 1261505605 0 :ehird!n=ehird_@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261505607 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b *!*n=ehird@91.105.101.* < 1261505612 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: 2 + 2 = 5 is a logically consistent but false statement < 1261505614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: interestingly enough, I know how to change my username. < 1261505641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 + 2 = 5 isn't logically consistent given PA :P < 1261505665 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: the essence of the Tarski/Goedel proofs is that there are statements like "This statement is false" which are syntactically consistent but which cannot be evaluated for truth value because they are paradoxical < 1261505682 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: sure. but truth value is irrelevant to rationality by your definition. < 1261505693 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I said extrinsic, not irrelevant < 1261505702 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b %*!*@91.105.101.* < 1261505706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster_ < 1261505742 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: my original point was that the brain could not be purely logical, as ehird suggested, because we have these very relevant notions like truth that cannot be logically defined and must be extrinsic to any logical system < 1261505796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: "truth" is a very high-level notion and there's little evidence that it actually exists in the brain as such < 1261505816 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: on the other hand, bayesian probability gives a very good model of how such a notion could be constructed mathematically < 1261505844 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more, there's experimental evidence that shows that bayesian probability is pretty much how actual humans evaluate truth < 1261505861 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: sure, but you need some a priori stipulation of what data is "true" to train your bayesian model.. < 1261505923 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you need some a priori stipulation of what data is "likely" < 1261505942 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exact label doesn't matter < 1261505958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does if you're going to confuse the notions of likelihood and of truth in the formal logic sense < 1261505969 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an evolutionary sense, we can say the brain trains statistically on survivable behaviors based on the environment < 1261505986 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a longer timeframe, genes do the same < 1261506009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that's reasonable, and has nothing to do with formal logic whatsoever < 1261506018 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we are still left with the question of "pure" truths like 2+2=4 that are divorced from the environment, or at least seem to be < 1261506155 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we're in the business of making machines that run programs, this is a very important question. how do we distinguish 2+2=4 versus 2+2=5? < 1261506220 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506220 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506220 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506220 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506221 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261506333 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506378 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg < 1261506411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261506422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261506433 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :atrapado!n=roper@130.102.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506500 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261506526 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament : :D < 1261506543 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God I hate Haskell < 1261506599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! You shall not hate Haskell! < 1261506604 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1261506623 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs a cloak and dagger. < 1261506641 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something tells me that pic was made by a haskell fan :) < 1261506643 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't tell God about your hatred either. he might smite you. < 1261506663 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a completely legal cloak and dagger. < 1261506683 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't get all of the cells, though < 1261506695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that means that the word "and" means its legal sense, "i.e.". It's a single object that's both a cloak and a dagger. < 1261506744 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261506846 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b %*!*@91.105.101.* < 1261506852 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : someone also provided http://imgur.com/P9RnL < 1261506902 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1261507038 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<Gracenotes> someone also provided http://imgur.com/P9RnL <-- hahah < 1261507106 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: nice < 1261507158 0 :ehird!n=ehird_@91.105.101.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261507193 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole idea is rather ridiculous.. there's an obvious conflation of the languages and those who use them, and attempts at illustrating the former look rather flimsy < 1261507227 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: er.. I think it's a joke :p < 1261507242 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEEDS MOAR QUALITY < 1261507261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the haskell one where they're all einstein is the superior one < 1261507279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole joke is that what people hate about haskell is what haskellers love about it < 1261507294 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where is the Lisp column? < 1261507301 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zomg < 1261507316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it's more funny but it's hardly an unbiased comparison :) < 1261507325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitter.com/SarahPalinUSA/status/6823906156 what < 1261507329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: nor is the other image :P < 1261507348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: lisp is (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( for everyone but lispers; they have a guru meditating < 1261507356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fail at spelling too < 1261507358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait < 1261507362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is unreadable < 1261507367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for haskellers lisp is, uh, something else < 1261507367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to me) < 1261507376 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for haskellers lisp would be yet another train wreck < 1261507385 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the babel tower? < 1261507385 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Haskell people, Lisp is a Rube Goldberg machine. < 1261507391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about erlang? < 1261507407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: translation from twitterfied retardese to retardese: "Earth saw climate change for eons; will continue to see changes. Our duty is to responsibly develop resources for humankind and not pollute and destroy, but you can't alter natural change.@ < 1261507409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*change." < 1261507419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: erm no < 1261507428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp is universally acknowledged as minimalist, well not common lisp okay, but still < 1261507431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty much a Haskell person; when I look at Lisp, I think, "Aiee! Side effects! Incomprehensible evaluation semantics! That's not a REAL functional programming language!" < 1261507434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a rube goldberg machine < 1261507447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I don't get the black box for php fans / haskell < 1261507447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp's evaluation semantics are trivial < 1261507452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's a Rube Goldberg machine made out of hundreds of copies of a single device. :-P < 1261507457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: look up black box < 1261507458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I'm a Haskell person! I don't know that! < 1261507469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, flight recorder < 1261507471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/ahixe/twitter_account_of_a_9_year_old/c0hl7ey?context=1 < 1261507473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes also < 1261507473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa; hivemind. < 1261507474 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: when Lispers look at Haskell, we think, "Ah, a convoluted subset of some of the stuff Lisp can do, but with a more obtuse syntax" :p < 1261507479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something you can't see how it works inside < 1261507507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is a superset of lisp actually < 1261507518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, hmm, no < 1261507520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're equal < 1261507526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also poor that tron person who has been used for "mad mad nerd" everywhere < 1261507529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming haskell includes template haskell < 1261507551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different type system, Haskell enforces purity, and rather different syntax. < 1261507584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Haskell goes for "readability", rather than "trivial parsing") < 1261507587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, I'm itching for some OSery. < 1261507589 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a tree falls in a forest without side effects, does it make a sound? < 1261507599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp is readable enough, I just don't find it so writable < 1261507615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, but readability is not what it's optimised for. < 1261507632 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: emacs autoindent and auto-paren matching helps immensely < 1261507644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: I've used paredit, don't think I'm ignorant of Lisps. < 1261507659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stand by what I said, though. < 1261507667 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you think it's hard to write, you're doing it wrong. let the computer worry about the hard part < 1261507680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Yes, I too once parroted the typical Lisper slogans. < 1261507698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still stand by my informed opinion. :) < 1261507700 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the ability to define infix operators in Haskell is a great feature. I think Lisp doesn't exactly have that feature. < 1261507704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your editor needs to be that freaking smart just to make the editing tolerable, the syntax sucks. < 1261507706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the parens that make it difficult, btw. < 1261507761 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you could write infix operators in a DSL with macros if you really wanted to... < 1261507783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that argument is akin to the Turing-Equivalence Argument for Language Irrelevance < 1261507795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can do that, but it's Bad Lisp and the Lispers will verily Kill You with Forks and Pitches Thereof < 1261507805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell, you write infix operators as follows: foo & bar = -- code here < 1261507805 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, why would you want to? is my point < 1261507814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so let's examine that argument structure < 1261507818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I like to be able to do X." < 1261507823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: foo `bar` baz = -- code here < 1261507833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lisp can do X if you don't care about conventions at all. This demonstrates my point that you wouldn't want to." < 1261507840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that...doesn't really make sense at all < 1261507846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or (&) foo bar = -- code here, or bar foo baz = -- code here! < 1261507849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Which is more readable: 2 + 2, or (+ 2 2)? < 1261507861 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: rather, he said he didn't think Lisp could do X. I clarified that it can. (with tangential side comment about why would you want to) < 1261507862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, that is the desugaring. < 1261507871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math notation arguments are silly. < 1261507884 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I already said that I like to avoid parentheses for grouping? < 1261507885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not hard to read parenthesised prefix mathematical notation. < 1261507895 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507895 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507895 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507895 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261507896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The question is whether prefix notation is better elsewhere. < 1261507921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Well, technically it *can't* do X. < 1261507921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, it's not the math that makes it absurdly difficult.... < 1261507921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't make (2 + 2) work without modifying the compiler (which is cheating) < 1261507923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just takes a bit of getting used to. < 1261507927 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I actually prefer a unitary syntax. instead of foo(x, y) and x foo y and xfoo, there's just (foo x y). < 1261507934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans aren't (made (to (figure (out (what (the correct (number (of parentheses is.)))))))) < 1261507935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can make (infix 2 + 2) work, but that isn't the same. < 1261507944 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: sure it can. macros allow you to rewrite the language at runtime. if you want infix notation, you can have it < 1261507946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: rubbish argument < 1261507949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :editors can do that < 1261507954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, let's have a legit debate about lisp < 1261507957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a schoolkid one < 1261507963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the default arguments are stunningly borring < 1261507964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*boring < 1261507974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like there's more to my argument than you countered. < 1261507979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you can't make (2 + 2) work unless you wrap it in a macro of some sort that walks the code tree < 1261507990 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ....so? < 1261508011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you cannot implement infix operators in Lisp. < 1261508019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, take this: (a (b (c (d (e (f (g (h (i (j (k l))))) m)))))) < 1261508025 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which function is the one taking three arguments? < 1261508025 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: macros that walk the "code tree" are part of Lisp by definition < 1261508029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you use the Lispers' retarded definition made so that they can claim it's possible. < 1261508034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Yes. That's not the point. < 1261508045 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: plus, you get -10 points each for the ad hominems and appeals to boringness :p < 1261508075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ad hominem? < 1261508075 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: copypaste to emacs, meta-q and you can see that instantly < 1261508078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did I insult *anyone*? < 1261508092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we need a new fallacy, ad ad hominem. < 1261508095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels like a mad scientist < 1261508096 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, so with the correct software, it's perfectly readable. < 1261508117 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 10:47a member:kwertii: Yes, I too once parroted the typical Lisper slogans. < 1261508140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: a . b . c . d . e . f . g $ h (i . j (k l) m -- That? < 1261508142 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is already perfectly readable without any software: a . b . c . d . e . flip f m . g . h . i . j . k $ l < 1261508154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. h (i . j (k l) m) < 1261508166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: that is not what an ad hominem is < 1261508173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: or something like that, yeah. < 1261508173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: furthermore, you ignored the line after in that quote < 1261508177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fundamentally changes its meaning < 1261508194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., your quote, though snappy and, at face value, appealing, contradicts my experience. < 1261508208 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you argued that I was merely parroting typical slogans, ie. that I did not really understand what I was saying and was just repeating something because it was fashionable, thus insulting me rather than speaking to the content of my argument. < 1261508211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by saying I used to say it too, I was informing you that no, I'm not some lisp-ignorant newbie < 1261508219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: That was not my intention. < 1261508270 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: perhaps a better word choice would help to make your intentions clearer, then < 1261508290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: As I have just explained what I said in longhand, I do not think that is necessary. < 1261508311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if we had a language in which we had to state our points clearly rather than connoting them. < 1261508315 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturally, this is impossible. < 1261508342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, what I said was perfectly reasonable. < 1261508380 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I hear this Leibniz guy has a "calculus" that he developed for the purpose of resolving all disputes in a logical manner without emotional encroachment. he says it'll even solve religious and political questions. let's all use that! < 1261508422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Out of curiosity, does Lisp have a type system that makes most bugs disappear? < 1261508437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: careful < 1261508444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have plenty of bugs in haskell < 1261508450 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: err... no. no language that I'm aware of has a type system that makes most bugs disappear :) < 1261508451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just harder to detect thus making you think you have less < 1261508466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just call me the reasonability referee :P < 1261508485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: "Most". Huge swaths of types of bugs are very tricky to make... < 1261508499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but they're boring, easily-fixed ones. < 1261508501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's a bit of a "meh". < 1261508519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to advocate the type system, advocate from the angle that it increases expressivity (which it does). < 1261508524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an addition, not a restriction. < 1261508526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boring, easily-fixed, tedious, and still difficult to find one. < 1261508537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/one/ones/ < 1261508542 0 :olsner!n=salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261508567 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: common lisp and some other lisps have optional type declarations for optimization, and as always, if you really want a hard type system, you can write one yourself. < 1261508575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, yes, it also increases expressiveness so very nicely. < 1261508593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: *facepalm* < 1261508614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, yet another "LISP CAN DO THAT! notthatyouwanttoCOUGHbutiwontjustifythispartbecauselispcandothatCOUGH" argument < 1261508638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and C can do lambda. That doesn't mean that C is a functional programming language. < 1261508689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, be careful with the requires-editor-equals-bad argument, haskell strays dangerously close to that < 1261508714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... How so? The only tricky bit is the indentation, and that's not too hard. < 1261508718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not to mention optional) < 1261508735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the indentation takes up most of my time when coding haskell in a non-tailored editor < 1261508759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an aligned { foo = bar, newline, tab tab tab oops a bit too many backspace backspace , quux = < 1261508759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try using braces? :P < 1261508765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: non-idiomatic < 1261508767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ugly < 1261508775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1261508782 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are braces ugly in other languages? < 1261508793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Python. :P < 1261508812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does indentation also take up most of one's time when coding Python in a non-tailored editor? < 1261508822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1261508842 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the editor argument is kind of specious. I'm sure in 1955 some computer scientists were having the same argument about whether using a language that requires a compiler to be able to create programs was a negative point. < 1261508846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, the same is true of any language where indentation is idiomatic... < 1261508848 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I wouldn't notice these things, as I use Notepad for everything. < 1261508880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, not probably < 1261508895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python, it's always a multiple of one indentation width < 1261508898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since haskell aligns, not so < 1261508905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is a bitch if you're not using emacs or yi < 1261508928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to find a rather good example of Haskell's type system making things nicer to work with... < 1261508938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to have to go with Parsec. < 1261508953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, monads are a great example of something you can't really do properly without strong types < 1261508963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and parsec is an excellent example of monads < 1261508983 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've written a bunch of code in both static and dynamic languages. in my experience, there's very little difference in terms of avoiding bugs but on the other hand I have to introduce 50 million type casts or equivalent all over the place in the static languages. < 1261509006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: ... Which static languages have you written in? < 1261509019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing ones with C-like type systems. < 1261509020 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my coworker has notoriously bad spelling < 1261509022 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: C and Java, mostly, and a few other minor languages < 1261509032 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's having to use javascript right now and really suffers < 1261509035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weak static typing, then. < 1261509037 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he can't spell the variables consistently < 1261509048 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which in javascript means hard-to-debug runtime errors < 1261509057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever heard of "type inference"? < 1261509079 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Java's strong-typed < 1261509089 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: not really. < 1261509094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: < 1261509096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Not really. < 1261509100 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever strong typing means, java is probably not it < 1261509112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that you need to cast things to Object to do anything :) < 1261509133 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says it is :p *watches as 5 people simultaneously edit the Java (programming language) article to change that* < 1261509134 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you're criticising haskell's strong typing based on java, just... give up < 1261509192 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I didn't say anything at all about Haskell < 1261509201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole argument is about haskell vs lisp < 1261509221 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: er.. no, I haven't mentioned Haskell once, actually, since I know almost nothing about it. < 1261509236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well everyone else has been arguing about Haskell vs Lisp. < 1261509237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of one good argument for dynamic typing < 1261509254 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes it easier to change the design of the program as you're writing it < 1261509273 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes, exactly < 1261509295 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without it, you have to go through and change the 50 million casts everytime you make a design change < 1261509299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell lets you do that too; you just have to change the way the program is structured to account for it < 1261509307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, NONE of us is arguing for java < 1261509319 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: 50 million casts are not a typical feature of static typing. < 1261509327 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're a typical feature of Java. < 1261509337 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why java sucks so bad < 1261509343 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing in C < 1261509351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it's also why C sucks so bad < 1261509361 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once, when I tried to write something in Haskell, the typing got in the way. < 1261509362 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is particularly bad when it comes to the type system < 1261509370 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only oncce. < 1261509379 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does strong typing without casting (like Haskell, presumably?) buy me as a coder? < 1261509392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A whole hell of a lot. < 1261509409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the ability to reason about the program and its constituent parts better. < 1261509425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: for example, given a type signature of a function, you can often tell what the function does. < 1261509447 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1261509457 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I've never really had a problem with that in a dynamic language.. and how does that differ from, say, Java or C on that point? < 1261509470 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509483 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck writing a function with signature (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] in C or Java < 1261509493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it in java, with generics... shudder < 1261509505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's (a -> b) in Java? < 1261509505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: this argument will probably only end if we either give up or we end up teaching you all of haskell < 1261509514 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: please pardon my ignorance of Haskell syntax. what does that mean? < 1261509518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type system really is totally different in haskell < 1261509525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: this type signature is of the function map < 1261509526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Func<A,B> or Func<A><B> I forget < 1261509528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: do you know map? < 1261509533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming Func is a genericed class with < 1261509536 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-26-44.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B call(A x); < 1261509538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1261509540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261509542 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I know the Lispish function map.. is that what you mean? < 1261509545 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yes < 1261509549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you do the ugly new Func(){{ thingy < 1261509554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to write a parser as follows: toplevel = do {x <- sepEndBy expr space;eof;return x};expr = choice [comment,sexp,string "" >> return Null];comment = do {string ";;";skipMany (noneOf "\n");return Null};sexp = List <$> between (char '(') (char ')') (choice [token, sexp, comment] `sepBy` spaces);token = Node <$> many1 alphaNum < 1261509558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible, just awful < 1261509560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not a closure < 1261509566 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in lisp, map takes a function and a list of stuff, and applies a function to each element of the list < 1261509568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only access final (immutable) vars from the upper scope < 1261509575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map has been done in java < 1261509582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://functionaljava.org/ < 1261509585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as monads < 1261509587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but jesus is it ugly < 1261509595 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell, map takes a function that converts values of type a to values of type b, and a list of values of type a < 1261509601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and produces a list of values of type b < 1261509619 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b] says < 1261509646 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ok.. so does this buy me anything over Java, other than syntactic sugar? < 1261509648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler ensures that there won't be type errors as you apply it. < 1261509667 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: there's no sane map in Java, you'd need a for loop or something < 1261509669 0 :atrapado!n=roper@130.102.27.77.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509669 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you cannot express that function in java < 1261509678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it if you let (a -> b) be a function < 1261509680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler ensures that there won't be any other affects of the function. < 1261509680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a closure < 1261509687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, literally, impossible in Java < 1261509690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *effects < 1261509709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a function with other effects would be: (a -> b) -> [a] -> IO [b]) < 1261509718 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261509718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261509718 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261509724 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261509734 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261509736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what would be fun? < 1261509746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that you give a type signature, and it tries to find out if it's doing something evil < 1261509752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> IO b) -> [a] -> [b] < 1261509753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL! < 1261509755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a -> b < 1261509756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL! < 1261509767 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than closing over variable bindings, you can write a Java fn that takes, say, a typed array and an anonymous method and applies it to produce an array of a guaranteed return type.. can't you? < 1261509784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: technically, yes, with five pages of code < 1261509796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: right, you can, but there's a reason nobody does it < 1261509798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell has other tricks up its sleeve, though, and not just convenience-related ones < 1261509815 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it's very much going against the grain of the language < 1261509816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Can you also ensure that there the function does nothing else, by merit of seeing nothing other than the type signature? < 1261509833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, typeclasses handle both java's generics AND a good portion of problems usually solved with OOP < 1261509839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and Java interfaces too < 1261509841 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yea, I'm not arguing that Java doesn't suck, I'm just trying to learn about Haskell. < 1261509845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So... yeah." < 1261509855 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: what pikhq said is a big selling point < 1261509862 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so Haskell forces you to declare whether there are side effects? < 1261509866 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261509868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: sort of < 1261509872 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of cool < 1261509872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does, but it's not a language feature < 1261509878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything with side effects is of type IO a < 1261509914 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it not only forces you to declare it, but it verifies it during type-checking < 1261509922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addFromInput :: Integer -> IO Integer < 1261509922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addFromInput n = do m <- imaginaryFunctionThatReadsAndParsesAnInteger < 1261509923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return (n+m) < 1261509934 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: or rather, it doesn't force you to declare it, it just verifies it :) < 1261509935 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more succintly, addFromInput n = imaginaryFunctionThatReadsAndParsesAnInteger >>= (n+) < 1261509946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the important thing to realise is that "IO a" isn't just a silly tag applied to a < 1261509957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, IO a doesn't mean "a, but with some side-effects" < 1261509958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell you don't usually have to declare types at all, because the compiler figures them out itself < 1261509977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means "some IO thingies that, when run on a side-effecting computer, produces a value of type a" < 1261509979 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: but a function with side effects and a function without side effects have different types, so you can't accidentally interchange them < 1261509990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, the language is 100% pure, no IO < 1261509996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens is that the haskell runtime system calls main() < 1261509998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, main < 1261510014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but think of it as main(), it's actually just a lazily-evaluated value, not a function of no arguments; they're equivalent in a lazy language < 1261510018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It then evaluates the result of main. < 1261510020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, it traverses the tree of IO computation < 1261510030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing each IO operation and feeding the result back in to the rest < 1261510049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this runs the program bit by bit doing IO as it goes instead of the whole thing at once because haskell is lazily evaluated; only runs computations that it absolutely needs to right now < 1261510062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why [1..] works; it's the same as 1:(1:(1:... < 1261510073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it looks like <thunk> to haskell, which if you examine the head becomes 1:<thunk> < 1261510081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you examine the head of the tail it becomes 1:(1:<thunk>) < 1261510081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261510091 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1:(2:(3:..., rather < 1261510104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, right < 1261510104 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very interesting < 1261510108 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers mixed with frowny faces < 1261510110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 1:(1:(1:... is fix (1:) < 1261510112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 :( 2 :( 3 :( < 1261510112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, finally, IO is actually a monad; which have nothing to do with side-effects at all, despite some mistaken conceptions < 1261510130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like the "do a; b; c" stuff and the >>= functions have nothing to do with i/o < 1261510131 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i'm pretty sure you lost kwertii already < 1261510141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, even lists are a monad; the point is, you don't have to understand what a monad is < 1261510155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just trying to demonstrate that in haskell, side-effects aren't bolted on < 1261510160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they arise from other parts of the system < 1261510164 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I don't get the details, but it's interesting that the program is structured around the operations necessary to do IO < 1261510174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you don't have to understand the parts to do IO in haskell, though, it's easy) < 1261510180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i'm pretty sure that side effects ARE bolted on :) < 1261510191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well everything is bolted on if you use a silly definition < 1261510203 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261510203 0 :olsner!n=salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261510203 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261510207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, side effects aren't even part of the language. :P < 1261510212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that without lazy evaluation, and monads, it'd be more awkward; it's a happy coincidence that monads map to IO, but actually that just reveals the inner power and usefulness of monads < 1261510214 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something runs main < 1261510217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this "something" isn't haskell < 1261510218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how useful lazy evaluation is < 1261510220 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's some bolted-on bit < 1261510227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well, yes, but that's not the sense I meant < 1261510231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that "IO" fits into the language < 1261510231 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh, Lisp can do that. *joke* < 1261510245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: right, it can't < 1261510273 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: blah, just learn haskell already :P < 1261510283 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are monad libraries in Lisp.. If you wanted to, you could write macros that would force programs to be structured like that.. *ducks* < 1261510289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the humanity < 1261510294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: everybody's favourite motivating examples: < 1261510329 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial :: Integer -> Integer < 1261510336 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial n = product [1..n] < 1261510366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isprime n = not . any (\p -> mod n p == 0) . takeWhile (\p -> p^2 <= n) $ primelist < 1261510366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primelist = 2 : [p | p <- [3,5..], isprime p] < 1261510366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: this program gives a function, isprime, which tells you whether an integer is prime, and a list, primelist, which is an infinite-length list of every prime. isprime looks at primelist to find primes, and primelist asks isprime to add new primes to the list < 1261510368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it works < 1261510372 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibs :: Integer < 1261510373 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) < 1261510373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAZY EVALUATION IN YOUR FACE < 1261510382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament's is the same general idea, but with less head-binding < 1261510383 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fibs) < 1261510422 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clojure has lazy evaluation < 1261510428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1261510432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: fibs :: [Integer] < 1261510439 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh whoops < 1261510442 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1261510459 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are lazy eval libraries for Common Lisp... < 1261510478 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme has it builtin too < 1261510484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the same kind < 1261510486 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesn't < 1261510488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell, everything is lazy < 1261510493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well it has promises which are ... half-similar < 1261510496 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'm not getting something. what does Haskell do that Scheme or Clojure don't? < 1261510497 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: give me an infinite list in Scheme < 1261510506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell, every single construct is lazy < 1261510513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implicitness makes it *far* more expressive < 1261510537 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: for example, the list of natural numbers in Haskell is [1..]. You can perform any list operation on it. < 1261510543 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: What's the Scheme equivalent? < 1261510546 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: streams are infinite lists in Scheme < 1261510548 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Common Lisp or whatever < 1261510554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: exactly, they're different things < 1261510556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the whole point < 1261510563 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not good at Scheme. but infinite lists are baked into Clojure < 1261510571 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: exactly, they aren't lists, and you can't use list operations on them < 1261510584 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: http://www.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/eval-order_themes-delay-stream-section.html#eval-order_streams_title_1 < 1261510601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i'm aware < 1261510623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Write the following: fibs = 0:1:zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) < 1261510630 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cycle [1 2 3]) ;; infinite list of 1 2 3 1 2 3. ..... < 1261510632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he'll just use streams and a mass of (delay)s < 1261510656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what astonishes me is that kwertii is proving that he can't actually consider any language might be superior to lisp, because his brain just shows that it can be done in lisp < 1261510658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a trap! < 1261510659 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/Lazy_Fibonacci < 1261510675 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: -10 points, ad hominem < 1261510683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't submitting it as an argument < 1261510688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was merely making an observation < 1261510702 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(defn fib ([] (concat [0 1] (fib 0 1))) ([a b] (lazy-cons (+ a b) (fib b (+ a b))))) < 1261510709 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not arguing for superiority at all. Just trying to wrap my head around what Haskell can do that Lisp can't. As I said, I know almost nothing about Haskell < 1261510715 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a direct equivalent of the Haskell definition < 1261510716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ... Eeeeew. < 1261510723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no language can do anything that lisp can't, at all < 1261510726 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so in haskell, it's the same thing, but statically typed < 1261510728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from super-tc languages < 1261510739 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so you know that it's a list of integers, and you know that no side effects are performed while evaluating it < 1261510744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except clojure isn't very lispy < 1261510747 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: without seeing the code < 1261510748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that "fibs" isn't a function. < 1261510749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact, it takes all these things from haskell < 1261510752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, low level register setting? < 1261510757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I don't need Haskell for that, this language that took it from Haskell has it!" < 1261510757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is literally just a list. < 1261510775 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I readily admit it's cool that you can instantly know whether a fn has side effects, and I like the idea of computing a program as a sequence of functions necessary to produce the desired IO. < 1261510816 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or other.. low level C trickery? < 1261510826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves his hand around a bit < 1261510848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: and yes you can do all this stuff in other languages, but in haskell it's the main way of working < 1261510865 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. correct me if I'm wrong.... Haskell is essentially a strongly statically typed version of Clojure? Is that a good way of looking at it? < 1261510871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the combination of all of them being part of the language leads to code that's more concise, and Haskellers find more readable, for a lot of tasks, practical and theoretical < 1261510882 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: with better syntax, yes < 1261510883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed the type system does eliminate a lot of bugs < 1261510886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: sort of < 1261510889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: clojure isn't all lazy < 1261510892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has lazy lists < 1261510893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't lazy < 1261510900 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Lisp syntax, so we'll leave syntax aside :) < 1261510906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell's ubiquitous laziness is really fundamental < 1261510915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: you could use Liskell. < 1261510918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT THAT YOU'D WANT TO :p < 1261510922 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, Liskell < 1261510926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't, it's crappy < 1261510935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better just use clojure then < 1261510936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just added parentheses and a different macro system to Haskell < 1261510940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former isn't really all that lispy < 1261510946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is worse than Template Haskell < 1261510946 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, a functional language similar to Clojure but with pervasive laziness and strong static typing < 1261510954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: and monads. < 1261510959 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp has monads < 1261510961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, monadic IO is the language feature < 1261510965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = getContents >>= foo x >= putStr -- There, a program that filters stdin through foo x and outputs stdout. Lazily. < 1261510971 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can have them, more specifically. lots of libs for that < 1261510973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the typing is not just strong and static < 1261510975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: >>= not >= :P < 1261510981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: lisp doesn't use monadic io < 1261510986 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it's very expressive, or tries to be < 1261510994 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you write macros in Haskell? < 1261510996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it is lament probably disagrees :P < 1261510999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yes, with template haskell < 1261511007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_Haskell < 1261511008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: XD < 1261511011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As of version 6.10, Template Haskell provides support for user-defined quasi-quoters, which allows users to write parsers which can generate Haskell code from an arbitrary syntax. This syntax is also enforced at compile time. For example, using a custom quasi-quoter for regular expressions could look like this: < 1261511012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :digitsFollowedByLetters = [$re| \d+ \s+ |] < 1261511028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: it's a bit of a pain to write monads, and sure the syntax for using them isn't the most pretty, but the thiing is < 1261511030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1261511032 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: there's a kind of a goal to make the type checker do as much work as possible < 1261511036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of haskell's pervasive laziness and monadic IO < 1261511043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of things that would be macros in lisp... are functions in haskeell < 1261511046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*haskell < 1261511052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what can be simpler than writing a function? < 1261511055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: so many of "design patterns" elsewhere end up being types < 1261511064 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: and their common features are abstracted < 1261511066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: oh, and if Java is your benchmark, note that you don't have to declare types in haskell < 1261511079 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: (monads are one such pattern) < 1261511095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do (let a = 3 in a+4) and it all works, you can even have (do c <- getChar; print (ord c)) (ord = unicode codepoint number of character) < 1261511095 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@174-16-203-47.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261511105 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261511107 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. < 1261511110 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1261511119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people annotate the types of their top-level definitions, though (functions and other things) < 1261511123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's basically documentation < 1261511137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know a function's name as a type, you're like 90% of the way there to using it properly < 1261511142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*name and a type < 1261511149 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, anyone have any ideas on how to create a bittorrent like protocol that is more anonymous? < 1261511162 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but less so than freenet < 1261511166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you declare the type, of course it means if your function breaks the type (and thus compatibility) it complains < 1261511181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: maybe have the swarm act as a Tor-style network < 1261511189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except without exit nodes < 1261511193 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the info, guys, I am adding Haskell to the list of â«things to look into. < 1261511194 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: too slow < 1261511198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, you can have a list of everyone participating in the torrent < 1261511201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not who did what < 1261511206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: fthings! < 1261511217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: http://www.lisperati.com/landoflisp/ < 1261511222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: oh god, not that comic :P < 1261511236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might as well be called Land of Uninformed Haskell Bashing (I know the author knows Haskell) < 1261511249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but he wildly misrepresents it in that comic; I wouldn't mind if people didn't use it in substitute of an argument quite often) < 1261511255 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i can't believe how retarded you are < 1261511263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you do decide on haskell, btw, Real World Haskell is the best place to start. < 1261511287 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: thanks, I'll take a look < 1261511291 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-27-110.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261511291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your mind is tuned somewhere in the vicinity of tolerance of _why's style, http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ is in that area too < 1261511300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only covers the basics, but beyond that real world haskell works < 1261511315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hmm since I last checked it expanded < 1261511319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :covers a bit more than the basics then < 1261511325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still no monads though :-D < 1261511360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(real world haskell is free online here http://book.realworldhaskell.org/) < 1261511511 0 :sebbu3!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-158.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261511540 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: haha. awesome. < 1261511691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, I can't recommend LYAH enough. It doesn't cover the whole language, but what it covers it covers well. < 1261511707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: djinn doesn't know lists does it? < 1261511717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: djinn can't do recursive types. < 1261511736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :djinn isn't all that smart. < 1261511760 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261511762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: anyway, here's a haskell party trick < 1261511767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/query lambdabot and try these two lilnes < 1261511769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lines < 1261511771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b < 1261511772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1261511779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c < 1261511782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is < 1261511793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given f, a function taking a and returning b, and x, a default value < 1261511802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus m, which is either Just (something of type a) or Nothing, < 1261511816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either return (f (the thing in the Just)) or x < 1261511826 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&/ab < 1261511827 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1261511828 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :failk < 1261511830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., it's "if there's a value in here, pass it through this function; otherwise, use this default" < 1261511830 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail* < 1261511845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter one takes a function taking two arguments, and returns one that takes two arguments, but flipped < 1261511851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. f(a,b) = g(b,a) < 1261511866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr @djinn takes a type, and works out a function for you < 1261511876 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, copying 500 MB at 590 kb/s is irritating < 1261511879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, not any old type, but meh) < 1261511907 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: summarizing ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry-Howard_Isomorphism < 1261511916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1261511918 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if that doesn't get you excited about static types, nothing will :) < 1261511925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is that haskell types *are* that < 1261511946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works for types of useful, concrete functions ;-) < 1261511953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, not that many, and it's not the most useful application of the isomorphism < 1261511956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it sure is neat < 1261512045 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: where do you get x in those function definitions? < 1261512060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: if you use a name for a type, it doesn't mean that's the name for a variable < 1261512063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the function < 1261512071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: a -> a -> Integer < 1261512073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a b = 3 < 1261512083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both the arguments must be of the same type < 1261512087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what type it is can be any < 1261512099 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261512105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, a lowercase name as a type means "any type", but if you use it twice it's the same type < 1261512118 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I'm confused due to my lack of knowledge of Haskell syntax. You wrote "@djinn (a -> b) -> b -> Maybe a -> b" and then started talking about x. I see no x < 1261512130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I was just giving names to the arguments < 1261512132 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: the curry-howard isomorphism is a good example of an idea that's only possible when types are explicit < 1261512136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me restate it more verbosely < 1261512147 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: though of course it doesn't have much to do with programming < 1261512170 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: funny, I was just reading about automated theorem proving the other day. a very cool idea. < 1261512180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function takes values of the types < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b) — "transformer". A function taking a value of type a, and returning a value of type b. < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b — "default". < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a — "container". < 1261512181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and returns a value of type b. < 1261512185 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it partly explains why there's a strong mathy flavour in the haskell community < 1261512188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Maybe a = Just a | Nothing < 1261512199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., a value of type (Maybe a) is of the form of either < 1261512202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just (a value of type a) < 1261512202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261512203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing < 1261512205 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: right, @djinn is an automatic theorem prover < 1261512207 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This reminds me of a pun.. < 1261512215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if "container" is a Just < 1261512220 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: a very simple one admittedly, but the cool part is that it works on haskell types < 1261512228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the value from inside "container", and pass it to "transformer"; return the result. < 1261512233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, return "default". < 1261512243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of (Maybe a) as like this java < 1261512243 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: please define "Maybe" and "Just" in this context < 1261512250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MyType foo = null; < 1261512254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MyType bar = new MyType(); < 1261512261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: in haskell this would be expressed as < 1261512266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: Maybe MyType < 1261512268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo = Nothing < 1261512273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar :: Maybe MyType < 1261512278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar = Just (makeMyType) < 1261512290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: Just and Nothing are just constructors of Maybe < 1261512302 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "Maybe x" is either "x or nil" and "Just x" is "x, but not nil"? < 1261512313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see how you are confused < 1261512317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, (Maybe a) is a type < 1261512320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just x) is a value < 1261512324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of type (Maybe (type of x)) < 1261512347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously you can only write one or the other when the syntax expects a type or a value) < 1261512397 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just x instantiates a new x? < 1261512415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: help, I'm in a hole I dug and can't climb out < 1261512421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, a question: know any open source photo manager or such. For doing stuff like grouping raw photos on exposure time and getting an overview of them < 1261512423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes x and wraps Just around it. < 1261512424 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no worries, I'll go read a Haskell book < 1261512426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: I tell you what, forget that @djinn invocation < 1261512428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one in ubuntu is laughably bad < 1261512432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fspot) < 1261512437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't understand it, focus on the other one, which just returns a function with the argument places swapped :P < 1261512448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwertii: yep. i suggest http://www.learnyouahaskell.com/ to start with then going onto real world haskell, as i said < 1261512462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learnyouahaskell gets down to the practical stuff very fast, so you should grok Maybe soon enough if you read it < 1261512475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is written by a better teacher than I... < 1261512489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: write a program photoq(1) < 1261512498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :photoq exposure foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261512503 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the type of x is y, then Just x has a type of Maybe y < 1261512505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use the shell :-) < 1261512518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example use < 1261512522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias pq=photoq < 1261512526 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261512535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ photoq size foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261512540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1261512543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pq size foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261512548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo.jpg: 1600x1200 < 1261512552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bar.jpg: 640x480 < 1261512555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pq size foo.jpg < 1261512557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1600x1200 < 1261512569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION , master of theoretically pure solutions! < 1261512576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm actually I'd omit the trailing colon on the filenames < 1261512585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1261512593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd not really want to parse that, just call pq multiple times in a loop < 1261512624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by overview do you mean thumbnails? < 1261512631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so nautilus shows them :P < 1261512651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can query information about a group of photos identified by their thumbnails by selecting them and dragging them to a terminal after "pq theproperty "! < 1261512939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster summarily ignores me! < 1261513000 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261513075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1261513082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1261513084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sorry I had to leave for a few seconds < 1261513088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i went all unix elitist on you < 1261513090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, due to not feeling weel at all < 1261513093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first as a joke < 1261513097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might have some flu < 1261513098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at the end started thinking it was pretty cool < 1261513099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261513102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261513105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pearl flu < 1261513119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mongoose flu! < 1261513127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoosh maybe < 1261513134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not at all < 1261513142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, tell me what i was referencing < 1261513152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I wasn't continuing it. < 1261513162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referencing "pearls before swine" < 1261513166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was already typing that when you said pearl flu < 1261513174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, we have that idiom in Swedish too < 1261513177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1261513182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kasta pärlor för svinen < 1261513182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!hsoohw < 1261513212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally: throw pearls in front of the swines < 1261513232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> photoq exposure foo.jpg bar.jpg < 1261513234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1261513238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use a shell script atl < 1261513240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm* < 1261513242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using exiftool < 1261513244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to read the data < 1261513253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well make pq a wrapper around exiftool < 1261513258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I just wanted to do something else < 1261513262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use my nautilus for thumbnails + drag and drop to terminal :P < 1261513266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solution < 1261513287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know if that works in nautilus i think it doees < 1261513287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does < 1261513290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does in os x anyway < 1261513326 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wooshed over my head < 1261513330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is still wooshing < 1261513344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what did < 1261513347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261513349 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261513351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said pearl flu < 1261513354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pearls before swine < 1261513355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swine flu < 1261513366 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what "pearls before swine" is supposed to mean < 1261513376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant to the pun < 1261513396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pearls before swine refers to a quotation from the discourse on holiness, a section of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount, implying that things should not be put in front of people who don't appreciate their value." < 1261513404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like INTERCOURSE ON HOLINESS < 1261513407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it is for i in *.MRW; do exp=$(exiftool "$i" | awk '/Exposure TimeExposure Tim/ {print $NF}'); mv "$i" "${i//.MRW/THM}" "${exp/\//_}" < 1261513409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; done < 1261513429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261513430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pfft, that only works for exposure! < 1261513431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minus the typos < 1261513434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PQ PQ PQ < 1261513441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ $/d < 1261513468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes < 1261513495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also I need to sort it by motive this time < 1261513500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are not all in the same direction < 1261513504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is a motive < 1261513558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err that was Swedishism maybe < 1261513570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what do you can the thing a picture depicts < 1261513574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Swedish it is "motiv" < 1261513583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :motiv sounds like motif < 1261513589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but uh < 1261513591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject? < 1261513595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what do you can the" < 1261513596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah maybe < 1261513603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language parser gave up there < 1261513603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oops < 1261513608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call* < 1261513609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just parsed the rest of the sentence < 1261513615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, s/can/call/ < 1261513619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subject, probably— uh, do cameras give that information? < 1261513623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know they could identify shapes. < 1261513624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no they don't < 1261513625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which < 1261513631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is why I need a photo manager < 1261513636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so < 1261513642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXIF is extensible, right? < 1261513651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, doesn't change that my camera doesn't do it < 1261513654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes there is MakerNotes < 1261513658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and neither can a photo manager < 1261513664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're going to have to enter the subjects yourself < 1261513666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the vendor can put whatever it wants < 1261513670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, exactly < 1261513672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! make a field Subject < 1261513675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put the subject in < 1261513679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do $ pq subject ... < 1261513681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TADA < 1261513692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually my camera allows you to make short sound annotations < 1261513694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261513700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with it's built in mic < 1261513705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combine with speech recognition! < 1261513715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*snap* "Cat." < 1261513721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*goes on computer* < 1261513728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recognition failed. < 1261513732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FUCK!" < 1261513736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually here it was "section 1 of the panorama" "section 2 of the panorama" < 1261513737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1261513737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recognition succeeded. < 1261513740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fuck" < 1261513747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, that last line is confusing. < 1261513750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's rewrite it: < 1261513751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Fuck < 1261513757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, that's still confusing. < 1261513768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that the computer recognises "fuck" but not "cat". Now laugh, fool. < 1261513772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261513779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fuck the cat? < 1261513784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"calling police" < 1261513796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hot cat-on-cat(1) action. < 1261513801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261513801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Meeeow." "Meeeow." < 1261513817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You're so like me." "You're so like me." < 1261514026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, idea: make a program that can construct a partial 3D image given two photos from two different locations < 1261514031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the parallax < 1261514043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's called red and blue glasses < 1261514055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well no it isn't. I want a 3D model I can load into blender < 1261514064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be unlikely to work very well :P < 1261514066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is called "cheap-skate (sp?) 3D scanner" < 1261514099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember using a program that could do something like that, a long time ago < 1261514123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, oh? < 1261514128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it'd fail horribly e.g. on spheres < 1261514162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. You could only get an image covering a bit more than 180 degrees < 1261514165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I don't remember much, except you had to help it, I think by specifying points on both images that are supposed to match up < 1261514173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and yes it would be hard to detect a sphere < 1261514190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well yes that is given < 1261514196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect to have to do that too < 1261514206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261514207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1261514232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well that or give it the distance between the camera positions < 1261514232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1261514239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could automate point finding < 1261514241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1261514248 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261514250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are already tools to do so < 1261514255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used for panorama making < 1261514265 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261514274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modify the algorithms a bit maybe to account for the now wanted parallax < 1261514283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have a point finding algorithm < 1261514286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1261514341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to play around with debian sid < 1261514420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders saying "tried it years ago" but decides not to < 1261514431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I've used it before. < 1261514437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just feel like some Debian tinkering. < 1261514443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. I just said I decided not to say it < 1261514465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, clearly the metric is how young you are when you first used it. < 1261514466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I'm aware of the issue in that sentence, thank you very much) < 1261514467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, I win. < 1261514473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no issue < 1261514475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm. 12 or so < 1261514478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe 13 < 1261514480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot < 1261514484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, sid? < 1261514489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like doing drugs when you're 4 < 1261514495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I tried red hat when I was 11 < 1261514496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU HAVE NO CONCERN FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH < 1261514500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red hat 5.something < 1261514507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red hat is like, uh, something bad < 1261514511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :came on a cd with some computer magazine < 1261514516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. But I didn't know that back then < 1261514520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that had RPM hell < 1261514529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried debian a bit later. sid too iirc < 1261514530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully nobody uses rpm these days < 1261514531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then slackware < 1261514537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the same way that nobody uses dpkg) < 1261514571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also wait a sec... < 1261514574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> that's like doing drugs when you're 4 < 1261514580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First distro I used was Slackware... < 1261514580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't you like 14? < 1261514582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261514582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using sid at such an early age < 1261514588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14 IS LIKE BEING 18 OKAY < 1261514590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be just as bad for you < 1261514595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but you said you used it before! < 1261514597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is when hard drugs become legal in Falsebekiztan < 1261514604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SHUT UP < 1261514613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR WORDS BOUNCE OFF ME THEY DO NOT HURT < 1261514636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this reminds me of a Marty Feldman (sp?) sketch < 1261514650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now using gentoo when you're 4, is like doing heroin before you're even conceived < 1261514658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed < 1261514659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuously < 1261514706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but I only started with gentoo when I was maybe 16 or so < 1261514709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 15 < 1261514719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember it was in late 2004 anyway < 1261514730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is too tired to work out that < 1261514765 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261514773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, linode just became an appealing vps provider < 1261514778 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261514780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a facility in london < 1261514782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is my mouse suddenly slippery < 1261514786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's (a) fast, (b) low-latency < 1261514789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets something to clean it < 1261514805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if only their rates weren't kinda shitty < 1261514856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linode 19.95 $: 360 MiB of RAM, 16 G(i?)B of storage, 200 G(i?)B transfer < 1261514856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prgmr 20 $: 1024 MiB of RAM, 24 GiB of storage, 160 GiB transfer < 1261514896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, their performance is nice: http://journal.uggedal.com/vps-performance-comparison < 1261514959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inexplicably 32-bit is faster than 64-bit for smaller linode nodes, apparently < 1261514983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, memory usage? < 1261514999 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant since he ran actual benchmarks, not single tasks < 1261515006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261515007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean < 1261515007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261515009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed-wise < 1261515010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://journal.uggedal.com/vps-performance-comparison < 1261515015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linode guys said the same < 1261515022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1261515030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x86 performs better on smaller nodes (360) our experience." < 1261515033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not said by a linode guy < 1261515034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1261515036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, yeah < 1261515037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1261515046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes it could be that more fits into ram there < 1261515051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't have a lot of ram < 1261515051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubtful < 1261515055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benchmarks don't tend to be huge < 1261515061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 360 MiB of RAM running linux? < 1261515071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so more can be cached < 1261515072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can surely fit an entire benchmark, it's not like it's a 3d rendering test or anything < 1261515076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, he ran several benchmarks < 1261515084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of which were not ram-intensive < 1261515095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, okay I saw postgresql there. Which would be cache-dependant in part < 1261515117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in-memory sqlite < 1261515120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, linode lets you install your own distro instead of just a predefined list < 1261515125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was a nice thing about prgmr < 1261515126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about more fitting into cpu cache? < 1261515127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite tempting < 1261515130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that *is* possibke < 1261515134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible* < 1261515138 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-86-24-144-176.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261515139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: look how drastic the differences are, though < 1261515151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most of the benchmarks, i686 blasts away x86_64 on linode < 1261515162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Django test suite on in-memory SQLite" x86_64 wins? < 1261515180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"most" < 1261515190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261515195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Microsoft loses patent appeal; Word and Office to be barred from sale starting January 11" < 1261515198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway both are way over any other host < 1261515199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nothing of value was lost. < 1261515210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: which is better < 1261515221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1261515223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well on most < 1261515228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261515231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the benchmark, confusingly :P < 1261515235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261515240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more importantly, linode is also among the most predictable < 1261515254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazon, prgmr and amazon are about as stable as each other, performance-wise < 1261515257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> "Microsoft loses patent appeal; Word and Office to be barred from sale starting January 11" <-- long live that judge? < 1261515260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261515273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. amazon and prgmr 2. linode 3. rackspace < 1261515283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. slicehost (really really bad last place) < 1261515295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ehh < 1261515295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, are those patents important? < 1261515299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261515308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261515313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're shitty patents < 1261515314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? at what level? as in can't open saved files without it? < 1261515316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't have been granted < 1261515322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as in fundamental to the .docx format < 1261515325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in "can't use simne gui thingy" < 1261515328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, all .*x < 1261515333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1261515341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what does the patent patent? < 1261515349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something like "using XML to do out-of-band formatting" < 1261515349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1261515352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have < 1261515353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1261515354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo < 1261515356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have < 1261515361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format first N characters: bold and big < 1261515366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second < 1261515369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format N to N+foo: italic < 1261515370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that patents xslt < 1261515372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it? < 1261515374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1261515376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like < 1261515395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, using out of band formatting like that *is* shitty < 1261515398 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261515407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<doc><txt>HiYo</txt><bold from="0" to="2"/><italic from="2" to="4"/></doc> < 1261515420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that is a shitty way to specify it < 1261515427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the patent is too general; there was prior art; it shouldn't have been granted; software patents are abhorrent; patents are abhorrent; and the judge should have invalidated the patent < 1261515431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one sane would do it < 1261515435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a shitty result, but it still amuses me < 1261515451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's a difference beyond representation of the same data I think, I forget what though < 1261515456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261515459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just from memory < 1261515460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be wrong < 1261515472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yeah it was wrong but yeah it amuses me < 1261515503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, will they pay for using the patent do you think? < 1261515508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will they change format? < 1261515515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. < 1261515520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261515527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they will appeal again? < 1261515561 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261515561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll take the prosecution into a ditch at midnight, stab them repeatedly, cut their eyes out, slit their throat, rape them until they're unconscious, and tell them to drop it or they'll kill them. So the prosecution drops it, and Microsoft kills them anyway. < 1261515583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261515594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes similar maybe. but with suits < 1261515621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, out-of-court. < 1261515627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261515627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft is a psycopath. < 1261515631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*psychopath < 1261515648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261515649 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that fails they'll just force the price down to peanuts. < 1261515670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I almost hope the other company will refuses such things < 1261515673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["we have been preparing for this possibility since the District Court issued its injunction in August 2009 and have put the wheels in motion to remove this little-used feature from these products. Therefore, we expect to have copies of Microsoft Word 2007 and Office 2007, with this feature removed, available for U.S. sale and distribution by the injunction date."]] < 1261515675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little-used? < 1261515678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft you are full of shit. < 1261515682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: then they will die. < 1261515686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and microsoft will go ahead < 1261515699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about that person who owns it < 1261515705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be harder then < 1261515710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a company. < 1261515719 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bye" < 1261515722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, they could move it to the inventor in question? < 1261515723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1261515730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The patent is granted to the company. < 1261515731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well inventor within quotes here < 1261515741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what happens if the company dies? < 1261515748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or goes bankrupt rather < 1261515749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens if the inventor dies? < 1261515752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the patent expires. < 1261515758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1261515767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patents are shit anyway. < 1261515772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1261515781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be funny to use it to take down microsoft < 1261515804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't really defeat such a large corporation in today's corporatist society. < 1261515810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261515819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, another large company could? < 1261515822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a group of them < 1261515830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be... bloody. < 1261515833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, IBM, HP, Dell, Intel combined < 1261515845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and yes it would < 1261515847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be suicidal for all those companies. < 1261515855 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261515859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, throw in maybe 3-4 more large companies? < 1261515862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel relies on Windows to make moneey. < 1261515865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*money < 1261515869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do Dell and HP. < 1261515879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM would be damaged, but probably not killed. < 1261515881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what if microsoft *did* go down. what would happen instead < 1261515887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple? < 1261515898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think society would ever let that happen. < 1261515907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well suppose it *does*. < 1261515911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a thought experiement < 1261515914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would happen < 1261515925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably Apple and Ubuntu would launch the biggest marketing campaigns they possibly could because fuck it, they have the rest of eternity to profit from the results. < 1261515938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hah < 1261515976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still, I suppose what could happen would be for MS to loose market share over a extended period of time < 1261515987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until it is less than 40 % or so < 1261515995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would just be Microsoft fading. < 1261515999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yah < 1261516001 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261516002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is already happening at a sub-glacial pace. < 1261516008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261516008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The outcome is boring and predictable. < 1261516014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Microsoft dying in one go? < 1261516015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and what is the outcome? < 1261516018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world collapses. No exaggeration. < 1261516023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that apple and linux replaces them? < 1261516025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every-fucking-thing in the world relies on Windows. < 1261516034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Society would probably collapse until it's resolved. < 1261516037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally the year of the linux desktop? < 1261516039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or a new competitor. < 1261516058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which has been predicted for so long) < 1261516074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet some new competitor will emerge, probably based on Linux or something, but replacing X11 and all that, and with a Windows-style frontend. < 1261516079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drive letters and all that. < 1261516087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drive letters? < 1261516090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pukes < 1261516096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux being chosen only because it's a base that's stable and easy to build upon. < 1261516102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261516106 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The masses require familiarity. < 1261516131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I also think apple would grow by a lot. Not taking a majority but at least 10-20% more or so < 1261516157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno man, most people won't pay that much for a computer. < 1261516158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also windows only needs one drive letter: c: < 1261516164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CD-ROMs < 1261516165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can mount other stuff in directories < 1261516167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cameras < 1261516170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261516175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure you can't mount those in directories ? < 1261516180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1261516184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The public knows filesystems as purely physical. < 1261516184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261516188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Folders and files are literarl. < 1261516194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*files are literal < 1261516198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't even use shortcuts, themself. < 1261516201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*themselves < 1261516204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well on macs they show up on the desktop, no? < 1261516207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever seen a Windows user create a shortcut? < 1261516217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: People are confused by Macs. < 1261516222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sit at one and have no idea how to do anything. < 1261516222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. My dad. created one for the floppy way way back < 1261516224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not joking. < 1261516232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay, but you get my point. < 1261516238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, he isn't a computer literate really. He knows two programs: word and SPSS < 1261516244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is some statistical thingy < 1261516250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and eudora (lol) < 1261516255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot eudora < 1261516257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he still uses it < 1261516266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A drive is a thing, either the computer (C: to you and I), a camera, or a CD-ROM." < 1261516290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION twitches at c: being the computer < 1261516291 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A thing contains files, which are like letters or photos. You can put files into folders, which are like folders." < 1261516315 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261516403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo38 < 1261516407 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this a proper way to write a C code? It seems to work (is it portable?). struct _test_sizes { void*short_size[sizeof(short)==2?1:-5]; void*int_size[sizeof(int)>2?1:-5]; void*long_size[sizeof(long)==4?1:-5]; } < 1261516420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is portable and valid. < 1261516421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, to begin with I would use more newlines < 1261516428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stfu < 1261516428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes it looks portable and valid < 1261516434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's zzo38, he can code however he wants < 1261516437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec, sizeof test in there? < 1261516442 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is actual newlines in the actual code. But I pasted it here without newlines < 1261516459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Any reason for the -5s? < 1261516469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the -5 would be invalid code < 1261516469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, < 1261516473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's invalid < 1261516481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it should be invalid IMO < 1261516481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have foo[-n] < 1261516486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrays must be of positive length < 1261516491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so, your entire code is invalid < 1261516503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Array declarations must be have naturals. < 1261516511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq said < 1261516514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think what he's trying to do is make it fail to compile if those sizes don't match < 1261516514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... English is hard today, apparently. < 1261516520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in which case, I'd suggest doing < 1261516529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, unless it is in a function and C99 < 1261516530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if sizeof(long)!=4||sizeof(blah)!=blah < 1261516531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, VLAs < 1261516534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error DING DONG < 1261516535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1261516540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't use sizeof() in #if iirc? < 1261516545 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't use sizeof in preprocessor < 1261516548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I didn't say they must be constant. < 1261516551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1261516560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I see your intent < 1261516571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you could use gnu autoconf < 1261516578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: NO < 1261516582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop destroying zzo38's artistry :P < 1261516583 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, struct _test_sizes is not used anywhere else in the program. It is defined and then ignored < 1261516588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, also relying on those sizes for short int and long in a program is damn stupid < 1261516598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so, we need a constant expression that is valid if a sizeof is correct, and invalid if it is incorrect < 1261516603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, as a whole, is correct < 1261516603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, for example I have 4 byte int and 8 byte long < 1261516611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I did it this way is because sizeof can't be used in preprocessor < 1261516636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: if it works then use it, who cares about standards compliance for a lil hack :P < 1261516646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I was joking about autoconf < 1261516646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1261516651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Might I suggest testing against the macros in limits.h? < 1261516652 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is standard compliant < 1261516658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i know that < 1261516662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the other ones, still < 1261516677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, very good idea < 1261516686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see pikhq's suggestion < 1261516695 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, long is used only by GLK, so I put #ifdef UI_GLK so that the long_size element won't be defined if UI_GLK is not set < 1261516735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no reason to break it if size varies. define some types like myuint64 or whatever < 1261516739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each size < 1261516746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you use C99, then use stdint.h < 1261516750 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it isn't standard compliant, please tell me why it isn't standard compliant. What I read in the book, is that you can use sizeof in constants and that this can use constant < 1261516754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if USHRT_MIN != 1<<(2*CHAR_BIT) - 1 < 1261516756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#error DINGDONG < 1261516758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1261516765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, doesn't that assume two-complement? < 1261516770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what if we have sign bit instead? < 1261516772 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261516772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... Yes. < 1261516779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Actually, no. < 1261516781 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261516788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USHRT_MIN is the unsigned short type. < 1261516791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c requires 2-complement doesn't it < 1261516800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No. < 1261516800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, C doesn't iirc < 1261516806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1261516809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it wouldn't break with one complement I think. But what about sign bit < 1261516818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ushort < 1261516819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261516831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also that #error will give a syntax error < 1261516833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261516837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261516842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you want #error "DINGDONG" < 1261516847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261516881 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason I care that sizeof(short)==2 is so that */fwrite(rstack,sizeof(cell),0x100,fp);/* will be compatibility with all computers. However, I have to check endianness too. Possibly I can do something I have seen in somewhere else, use */if(elvis!=0xDEAD)/* for endianness check of the file < 1261516917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, err wait why do you need that sizeof(short) == 2 for that fwrite call? < 1261516931 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because otherwise the file won't be readable on another computer < 1261516952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: system independent stdint.h dropin for C89/C90 compilers < 1261516954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could write sizeof(short) inn the file < 1261516958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it can read like that < 1261516960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a huge mess of ifs and what not < 1261516960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but meh < 1261516979 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have #define cell unsigned short < 1261516985 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case you didn't know what "cell" was < 1261516997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, anything wrong with typedef? Just wondering < 1261517003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And *this* is why UNIX tends to serialise things as text. :P < 1261517006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, nothing wrong with typedef < 1261517015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq said < 1261517031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, if you use C99 use stdint.h < 1261517035 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all structures other than struct _test_sizes I used typedef struct (name) { } (name) < 1261517038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise try to write some logic to find it < 1261517056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, thing is. that code is rather unportable. the case of short will probably work < 1261517068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anything above that you can't depend on < 1261517072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: he meant for typedef unsigned short cell; < 1261517074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to #define < 1261517075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially not long < 1261517082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yep < 1261517087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no big deal though < 1261517099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact cpp is probably faster than introducing a type alias to the c compiler < 1261517108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just find typedef cleaner, since for one thing that shows the typedefed type in gdb < 1261517115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which IMO makes debugging easier < 1261517116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo is probably above debuggers :P < 1261517117 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-92.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261517122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, good point < 1261517130 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you would do, is if it makes a negative array error when you try to compile it, you change the #define cell to make it work, and then try to compile it again < 1261517150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, fun < 1261517158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: or even just pass -Dcell=... to the compiler < 1261517163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that would require that you do < 1261517169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifndef cell < 1261517169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifndef cell < 1261517169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define cell unsigned short < 1261517169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1261517170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261517187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoconf is dead; -D= is the new configuration system! xD < 1261517196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does compilers for cell processors define cell I wonder < 1261517201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261517206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it should be __cell__ or __cell or such < 1261517208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who knows < 1261517216 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess I should do #ifndef cell so that you can change it < 1261517219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and what if I had a computer named i?@ < 1261517222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i?" < 1261517225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that did #define i 1?" < 1261517228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"WHAT THEN, BITCHES?" < 1261517228 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think probably compilers for cell processors might define CELL but not cell < 1261517237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, syntax error probably < 1261517240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: old macintosh compilers did #define macintosh, for some odd reason < 1261517251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ANY CODE NAMING A VARIABLE i IS UNPORTABLE < 1261517269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, :) < 1261517288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo | gcc -dM -E - | grep -v '#define __' < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define _FORTIFY_SOURCE 2 < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define unix 1 < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define linux 1 < 1261517290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define _LP64 1 < 1261517292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debian-installer is nice < 1261517300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for desktops it's too involved; for servers, though, it's smoooth < 1261517304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, at least you can't name a variable unix or linux! < 1261517305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically the graphical interface < 1261517308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ha < 1261517316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a #define NO_SHITTY_DEFINES < 1261517322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which stops definitions like that < 1261517328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, -ansi? < 1261517335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1261517338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, -ansi removes them < 1261517339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fyi < 1261517340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the logic would be simple < 1261517343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any variable all in lowercase < 1261517348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not preceded by _ < 1261517349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so does -std=c99 < 1261517350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is turned into < 1261517353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_SHITTY_DEFINE_(name) < 1261517365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it'd probably have to be a cpp command < 1261517367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#NO_SHITTY_DEFINES < 1261517368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, augh < 1261517380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, #pragma no_shitty_defines < 1261517381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather < 1261517387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSUFFICIENTLY UPPERCASE < 1261517398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, pragmas are generally lower case though < 1261517401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my fault < 1261517406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSUFFICIENTLY UPPERCASE < 1261517431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why don't we do #DEFINE then < 1261517448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apart from that that is probably a syntax error) < 1261517491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#YEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH < 1261517515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#pragma no-really-no-fucking-shitty-defines < 1261517535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about adding functions in the pre-processor < 1261517551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while we are at it < 1261517554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it more useful < 1261517569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the author of the synthesis OS suggested < 1261517625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just replace the damned thing? < 1261517634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out whether Stephen Fry will live to complete QI < 1261517641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To my surprise, I found that there are some things that were distinctly easier to do using Synthesis assembler than using C. In many of these, the powerful macro processor played an important role, and I believe that the C language could be usefully improved with this macro processor. One example is the procedure that interprets receiver status code bits in the driver for the LANCE Ethernet controlle < 1261517641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r chip. Interpreting these bits is a little tricky because some of the error conditions are valid only when present in conjunction with certain other conditions. One could always use a deeply-nested if-then-else structure to separate out the cases. It would work and also be quite readable and maintainable. But a jump-table implementation is faster. Constructing this table is difficult and error-prone. < 1261517642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So we use macros to do it. The idea is to define a macro that evaluates the jump-address corresponding to a constant status-value passed as its argument. This macro is defined using preprocessor "#if" statements to evaluate the complex conditionals, which is just as readable and maintainable as regular if statements. The jump-table is then constructed by passing this macro to a counting macro which r < 1261517644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're on the seventh letter, G, and it's been going for 75 months < 1261517649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epeatedly invokes it, passing it 0, 1, 2, ... and so on, up to the largest status register value (128)." < 1261517651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :</spam> < 1261517651 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 10.71 months per letter < 1261517654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1261517661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pikhq ^ < 1261517678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, with 19 letters left < 1261517691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will take 203 and a half months for qi to complete < 1261517702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a little over 17 years < 1261517713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, who is that person and what is QI? < 1261517722 0 :FireyFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261517723 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I did: echo | gcc -dM -E - | grep -v '#define __' < 1261517723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, assuming stephen fry lives until at least 69 and doesn't find anything better to do in the interim, we're okay < 1261517736 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261517745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, yes? < 1261517749 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got: _WIN32 _stdcall _cdecl _fastcall _X86_ WIN32 WINNT i386 _INTEGRAL_MAX_BITS < 1261517750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Stephen Fry is a British national treasure, hilarious, and the host of QI. < 1261517762 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :britain's favourite homo < 1261517762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well those with a single _ in front is no issue < 1261517767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that leaves < 1261517771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's on TV. He did some stuff with Hugh Laurie of House fame in the past few decades. But mostly he's hilarious. < 1261517772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIN32 WINNT i386 < 1261517774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as bad ones < 1261517776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: not saying much < 1261517790 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of competition < 1261517798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: QI is a comedy loosely disguised as a quiz show. < 1261517803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261517815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and where does the getting to letter G and such come into it < 1261517831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic premises being he asks a question, someone (usually Alan Davies) gives the obvious answer, sirens drone, he waffles on for a few minutes about the correct answer, and the episode ends with most players on negative points. < 1261517835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*premise < 1261517844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: one series = topics starting with that letter in the alphabet < 1261517848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261517883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, wikipedia sums it up in more words, but more eloquently, than I can and I should have just copy-pasted this to start with: < 1261517890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Most of the questions are extremely obscure, making it unlikely that the correct answer will be given. To compensate, points are awarded not only for right answers, but also for interesting ones, regardless of whether they are right or even relate to the original question. Conversely, points are deducted from a panellist who gives, "answers which are not only wrong, but pathetically obvious",[6] typically answers that are generally believed to be true but < 1261517890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not.]] < 1261517925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so that will take 'Q'-'G' number of episodes? < 1261517942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: whut < 1261517952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if it was one letter per episode? < 1261517955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what did you mean < 1261517958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one letter per series < 1261517960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261517963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(season, whatever your country calls it) < 1261517964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long is a series? < 1261517980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, season % Swedish spelling < 1261517984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_QI_episodes#Series < 1261517994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should work out the average length of a series and go from there < 1261518011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just time/# of seasons < 1261518056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it seems to vary < 1261518076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first one three months, second one two months, third one three months, fourth one three months, fifth one three months, sixth one four months < 1261518081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and seventh one four monthsh < 1261518122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so on average, 3.14 (!!) months per season < 1261518126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there was one series per year to begin with < 1261518132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later two? < 1261518141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well spotted < 1261518151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"QI is a 26-year-long project" says wikipedia anyway < 1261518154 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1261518158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261518181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fry should be 72 when it's finished < 1261518192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some chance of him dying, but not too great < 1261518198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :large chance of him getting bored and doing sosmething else < 1261518222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Everything, Etc." < 1261518224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261518251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fingers and Fumbs" <-- that one was quite nice too < 1261518258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is it good? < 1261518259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :episode 77: "Ganimals" < 1261518261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the series < 1261518262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1261518278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ganimals"... that's stretching it a bit I think.. < 1261518308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, animals starting with G. < 1261518313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Galimaufrey of Gingambobs" < 1261518318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you explain that one < 1261518321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the title I mean < 1261518324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has yet to be aired < 1261518332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261518341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. < 1261518359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard thingambobs. < 1261518362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc you said it < 1261518372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what could Galimaufrey be a typo of < 1261518389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether his unix realname should be ehird or Elliott Hird < 1261518393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&ei=Ez4xS7PxOsui4QbGndGqCA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CA4QBSgA&q=gallimaufry&spell=1 < 1261518395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :galimaufrey (Grose 1811 Dictionary) < 1261518395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :galimaufrey < 1261518395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hodgepodge made up of the remnants and scraps of the larder. < 1261518398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261518407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A hotchpotch, jumble or confused medley." < 1261518414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my realname is ehird, then emails get sound out as ehird < 1261518427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? < 1261518427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it depends how much I identify with ehird vs Elliott Hird < 1261518433 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: unix real name field < 1261518437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261518439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*get sent out < 1261518441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1261518449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From: realname <username@host> < 1261518451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well the sent thing explains a LOT < 1261518452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261518453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the unix mail system < 1261518459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wat < 1261518463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the sound be seriously confused me < 1261518467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/be/bit/ < 1261518467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :P < 1261518476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I manage very well either < 1261518499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i identify as Elliott Hird if you ask me what my name is... < 1261518516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the other hand, I'd say "I'm ehird" on IRC or whatever if for some reason someone couldn't see my nick < 1261518520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even if they knew my real name too) < 1261518591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION changes format string < 1261518597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P < 1261518600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(temporarily < 1261518601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1261518613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just see <> for everyone, well I see myself due to different colour < 1261518619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a game where you get lines from an irc channel and have to identify who said them < 1261518628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I could manage zzo :) < 1261518636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet for recent chat in here (say 2008 onwards) I could get >70% accuracy < 1261518736 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try this one < 1261518749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i say 100% accuracy < 1261518750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<########> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P < 1261518756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh ooh < 1261518757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1261518759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament < 1261518767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament said "<########> ehird, now I can't see your nick ;P" < 1261519315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any English speakers: what is the past tense of seek? < 1261519340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sought. < 1261519414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1261519421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, seeked sounded so wrong < 1261519436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't English wonderful? < 1261519449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, aye it is < 1261519622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone use Debian sid? < 1261519808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq? < 1261519810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or used, even. < 1261519825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do, but I'm not very much here at the moment. < 1261519858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How likely is installing sid directly via netinstall from the http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ page to work? < 1261519871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Nah; when I used Debian for my desktop, I'd use testing with a few packages from sid. < 1261519881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And lastly, are all the mirrors equally up-to-date for sid, or just the *.debian.org mirrors, or just a few of them, or just the US one? < 1261519951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird spam: "50% of on luxary sex farm" < 1261519956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the typo was there < 1261519975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and already deleted < 1261520103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, well; I guess it's pretty likely to work, though I've usually just installed testing (probably etch on this box) with the devel/debian-installer version, then changed sources.list and aptitude-updated to sid. < 1261520165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for mirrors, I've used ftp.fi.debian.org exclusively, but never worried about up-to-dateness; I would guess it is quick to refresh, though. < 1261520189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think mirrorservice.org in the UK will be up to date as the official UK mirror? < 1261520303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just because a site is secondary doesn't necessarily mean it'll be any slower or less up to date than a primary site." Notably, they do not say that it will *not* be that, so... < 1261520338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, aren't mirrors supposed to sync on a specific schedule? < 1261520342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gentoo ones are < 1261520367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, every half hour such that the minutes modulo 30 is between 0 and 5 < 1261520389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that means between whole our and 5 minutes past and half hour and half hour + 5 minutes) < 1261520976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm sure there's some sort of guidelines for the primary mirrors (that have ftp.<country>.debian.org names), but the list has a bazillion "secondary mirrors" for which the requirements might be less strict. < 1261520988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261521022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mirror list says for primary mirrors just "They are all automatically updated whenever there are updates to the Debian archive." < 1261521066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the mirror submission form has a "frequency of mirroring" field that has the options "push-triggered", "twice a day", "daily", "less often", but I don't see that information actually listed in the list. < 1261521079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261521092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, push-triggered would be the fastest ones indeed < 1261521991 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261522039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders an FRP OS < 1261522151 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261522236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be... interesting. < 1261523195 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261523279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are erlang bit pattern things two-way? < 1261523287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. say you have < 1261523306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<X:1,Y:4,1:1>> < 1261523319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do somefunc(that, X=foo, Y=bar) < 1261523323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get some binary data back? < 1261523350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it simply <<X:1,Y:4,1:1>> is the binary data when used as an expression? < 1261523412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm pretty sure you can pattern-match them, yes. < 1261523422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the whole point. < 1261523428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean can you produce binary through them? < 1261523443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so. < 1261523486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1> <<1:1>>. < 1261523486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<1:1>> < 1261523488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jury's out < 1261523493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you print in Erlang :P < 1261523547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io:fwrite( foo ) < 1261523614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3> io:fwrite(<<97:8>>). < 1261523614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aok < 1261523619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess everything's a-OK! < 1261523645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5> X=3, io:fwrite(<<X:8>>). < 1261523646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^Cok < 1261523647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tee hee cock < 1261523680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yes, it works that way. < 1261523743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you have to write it out twice or can you store it so it can somehow be used as a pattern matcher AND an expression? < 1261523746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the former < 1261523747 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261523753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too much of a big deal, I guess: < 1261523793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse(<<blah>>) -> {vars}. < 1261523808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deparse({vars}) -> <<blah>>. < 1261523811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it would be nice. < 1261523894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1261523912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> AnMaster: are erlang bit pattern things two-way? <-- you can use bit patterns both to construct and to match < 1261523915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you mean < 1261523921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1261523922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One question though. < 1261523933 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261523942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have some binary format, and want parse(binary) -> {vars} < 1261523946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deparse({vars}) -> binary < 1261523953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I really have to write out the binary syntax thing <<>> twice? < 1261523989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. :/ < 1261524006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm... no you can use a macro. But I believe the left side of = vs right side of = is a big distiction < 1261524025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, macros are relatively clean in erlang < 1261524033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing they have a separate namespace < 1261524044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing will be macro expanded without a ? in front < 1261524049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ?MYMACRO < 1261524086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, gimme an example macro definition then? < 1261524312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sec < 1261524340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-define(REGISTER_NAME, {global, ?SERVER}). < 1261524386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that define SERVER or REGISTER_NAME? < 1261524403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGISTER_NAME. < 1261524416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the global thing part of the expansion? < 1261524443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGISTER_NAME evaluates to {global, ?SERVER}, yes... < 1261524512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it could be like an option whether to define it as global or local or something < 1261524513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1261524537 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261524564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1> -define(PROTOCOL, <<X:4, 0:1, Y:4>>). < 1261524565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* 1: variable 'PROTOCOL' is unbound < 1261524574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, thus why you asked the question. And it was answered... < 1261524617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the prompt seems to dislike statements beginning with a - < 1261524627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I asked the question but the answer only asked more < 1261524646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could very well see -define(FOO, {global, bar}) meaning "define FOO as a macro in the global scope with expansion bar" < 1261524649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair 'nough. < 1261524657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity that it doesn't. < 1261524667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd imply a much more flexible macro system. < 1261524676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macros in Erlang have file scope. < 1261524683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1261524724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's just "define FOO as a macro with expansion {global, bar}" < 1261524739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<...>> is called a bitstring, isn't it < 1261524755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261524770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261524774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an operator to concatenate them < 1261524785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you can do <<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>> and get ab < 1261524797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, but I'm not sure what it is. < 1261524802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... It might actually be ++. < 1261524807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or f(<<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>>) == f(<<97:8, 98:8>>) < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2> <<97:8>> ++ <<98:8>>. < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :** exception error: bad argument < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in operator ++/2 < 1261524822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : called as <<"a">> ++ <<"b">> < 1261524890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the counterpart to header/prelude at the end of a format is < 1261524894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epilogue? < 1261525035 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261525140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postlude. < 1261525142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has to be! < 1261525233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, such a thing actually exists? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/postlude says so. Oh well, I guess it was too obvious a construction. < 1261526126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> well it could be like an option whether to define it as global or local or something <-- it was passed as parameters in an OTP behaviour < 1261526134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was globally registered < 1261526145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the otp gen_server I mean < 1261526172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1261526196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Gregor: either of you there < 1261526202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emergency < 1261526205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1261526268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as you may know, Mike Riley (author of rc/funge) is planning to commit suicide. I wonder if you, as living in US, could contact the relevant samaritans or whatever. < 1261526279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know he lives in Las Vegas, Nevada < 1261526291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that he is probably 39 or a bit more < 1261526324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are you saying no to doing that? < 1261526345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doubting the feasibility of such a thing... < 1261526350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Las Vegas is freaking huge. < 1261526360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, problem is, they only seem to have phone numbers, not emails, and it seems I'm unable to call outside Sweden on my phone < 1261526371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well we know his name too < 1261526384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a high probability it is probably his real name < 1261526390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Additionally, I don't have much in the way of ability to call long distance. < 1261526398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, we also know he lived in Zurich some years ago < 1261526417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should narrow the search field down < 1261526483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lives in Las Vegas, 39 years or older, name of Mike Riley, lived in Switzerland some years ago (in or around Zurich)" < 1261526490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, can't match too many people now can it? < 1261526526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, alternatively you could contact the police. This sounds like a worse option to me though. < 1261526564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda hard to call long-distance, anyways... < 1261526573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not great phone service. < 1261526579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1261526594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you are our only hope</bad taste> < 1261527365 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261528073 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261529549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you must realise that in US is not very useful < 1261529557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the US is basically 51 countries :P < 1261529568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm 50 < 1261529570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woww < 1261529572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst typo ever < 1261529573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wow < 1261529577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: More than 50. < 1261529593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, ... < 1261529606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the District of Columbia small < 1261529611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like really small < 1261529625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But heavily urban. < 1261529625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, puerto rico doesn't really share the same services as the us afaik < 1261529633 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: alright then < 1261529659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puerto Rico is set up similarly to the rest of the US. < 1261529683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, they pay no federal income taxes, and don't have representation in Congress. < 1261529691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, their economy is a tiny bit t3h suck. < 1261529711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't D.C. a state anyway < 1261529741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the founders wanted the capital to be independent from the states... < 1261529767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not an answer :P < 1261529795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why they wanted it that way? Something like "desiring neutrality on possible inter-state conflicts"... < 1261529848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like the govt can't vote themselves largesse anyway :P < 1261529919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to promote a group to be an antidote to all the annoying "Add this to get a dislike button/to see who's stalking you" groups: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&ref=mf&gid=218522451550 < 1261529926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no. < 1261529956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If I were malicious, I could have taken over your Facebook account. Do not trust arbitrary Javascript." < 1261529956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, a morality tale < 1261529966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this just keeps getting more and more Yawnsville, population: this < 1261529969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* Seth (creator)" < 1261529976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you didn't like people knowing your name was Seth < 1261530081 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How likely is a stalker to decide to google Sgeo along with facebook.com? < 1261530111 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo 100% < 1261530164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> AnMaster: you must realise that in US is not very useful <-- in US, Nevada < 1261530175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also they share country code < 1261530176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean e.g. pikhq < 1261530176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in US < 1261530184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... the Seagull Extinction Organization? < 1261530204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and does anyone have separate short/long distance taxes nowdays? < 1261530223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least they removed the difference in Sweden around 12 years ago or so < 1261530244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it is abroad/in-country < 1261530249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The US is about the size of Europe... Nevada is a long freaking ways away. < 1261530251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the us even has different laws for the same things in its 50 countries :-P < 1261530257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well different abroad costs for different countries < 1261530262 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261530268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, meh < 1261530281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got more in common with the European Union than any other sort of government, honestly. < 1261530282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the us states have some baseline laws, HOPE AND CHANGE, and not all that much else with practical implications in common :P < 1261530310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about "do not commit murder"? < 1261530318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"some baseline laws" < 1261530322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261530324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261530325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that's one of the ten commandments given to moses by god < 1261530327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a US law. < 1261530337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slight difference < 1261530344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I believe it is *also* a low in most countries < 1261530349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though phrased differently < 1261530364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not "do not commit murder", it's "if you commit murder we will make your life horrible by force" < 1261530372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do not" doesn't have many implications < 1261530374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1261530377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the law in most countries is "if you are charged with murder, we will do X to you" < 1261530380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again i guess the ten commandments come with the threat of hell anyway < 1261530385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the "do not" is what the intention is < 1261530392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goal < 1261530396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to speak < 1261530400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christian anarchism is a wonderful contradiction :) < 1261530404 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Operation timed out < 1261530409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261530413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's real < 1261530418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1261530418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism < 1261530423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Tolstoy < 1261530445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The state is illegitimate! Authority is false! ...but that guy up there in the sky, he can enforce laws through coercion any time he wants. If you catch my meaning. ;)" < 1261530470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261530487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need christian atheism < 1261530512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261530516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any suggestions for a meaningful meaning of that? < 1261530542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :washington or franklin did that < 1261530545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION actually came up with one a while ago < 1261530548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrote a book that was basically a secular bible < 1261530556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, using the teachings of jesus as a moral code, without supernatural implications < 1261530556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1261530564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jefferson. < 1261530566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea < 1261530566 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that wasn't Jefferson? < 1261530570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jefferson, then < 1261530571 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261530571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Jefferson Bible. < 1261530575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :founders, all the same really :P < 1261530579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though franklin isn't one < 1261530586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they unfortunately overlooked the fact that the bible isn't really the best moral code < 1261530635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that Franklin is a founding father... < 1261530661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261530662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, huh, maybe it's something else he wasn't < 1261530667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfart there :/ < 1261530675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... President? < 1261530684 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. right. < 1261530686 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was definitely never President. < 1261530687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :embarrassing, this. < 1261530688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, like, not a cucumber? < 1261530699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BEN FRANKLIN: Not a cucumber. At least that's what THEY want you to believe." < 1261530708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda died before the Constitution was signed, so... < 1261530719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and not a tomato either < 1261530723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an orange < 1261530731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lemon is a bit unclear) < 1261530741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you can make up lots of stuff he wasn't < 1261530741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: huh, franklin died before the us begun? < 1261530745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sad < 1261530803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No, no. He died before the second constitution was signed. < 1261530819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1261530831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Articles of Confederation, however, were around in his lifetime. < 1261530841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§By 2009, game developers will face… < 1261530841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§CPU’s with: < 1261530841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :– 20+ cores < 1261530842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :– 80+ hardware threads < 1261530842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :– >1 TFLOP of computing power < 1261530842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§GPU’s with general computing capabilities. < 1261530844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§Game developers will be at the forefront. < 1261530846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§If we are to program these devices < 1261530848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :productively, you are our only hope! < 1261530849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— Tim Sweeney, The Next Mainstream Programming Language < 1261530852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that CPU line is a bit of an epic misprediction < 1261530854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(circa 2005) < 1261530869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf rest of it is top-notch stuff though. And its mentioning of dependent types makes me really want to find a practical way to do them. < 1261530915 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He served as the first ambassador to France and Sweden, as well as being the first Postmaster, for the united States of America. < 1261530974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly speaking, the first constitution is still around -- it declared itself to be perpetual. :P < 1261530992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles < 1261530994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone use that in court. < 1261531033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, near as I can tell, the second one merely replaces most of the functional provisions of the constitution, "to form a more perfect Union". < 1261531058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Oh, that's not just my interpretation. < 1261531074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the opinion of the Supreme Court, in Texas vs. White (1869) < 1261531118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a working dependent type system should be purely compile-time of course... < 1261531129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i think using them will give the compiler more static information and thus let it compile better < 1261531149 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261531541 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hmm... the array type in a dependently-typed language should have the size as part of its type, shouldn't it? < 1261531593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Probably. < 1261531678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Index (Array n _) = Nat `That` (< n) < 1261531679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261531679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Index (Array n _) = Set.filter (< n) Nat < 1261531686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the latter, the type of types would be Set < 1261531692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in mathzz < 1261531699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno which i prefer more, former seems more "familiar" < 1261531710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latter seems more general < 1261531715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example usage: < 1261531790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: ary@(Array n a) -> Array m (Index ary) -> Array m a < 1261531840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. foo (makeArray [10..1,-1]) (makeArray [2,4]) → makeArray [8,6] < 1261531867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno whether that's actually any more "meaningful" than having < 1261531880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NatBelow n = Set.filter (< n) Nat < 1261531896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: Array n a -> Array m (NatBelow n) -> Array m a < 1261531922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a cool idea < 1261531937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: have you read the "total fp" paper? < 1261531951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I haven't. < 1261531994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2003, direct link: http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf < 1261532005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: basically, it's sub-TC but not totally impractical FP < 1261532007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no function can diverge < 1261532010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. partiality is a side-effect < 1261532013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1261532023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. if a function types, it returns a result of that type when you call it. No exceptions < 1261532026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the idea is < 1261532036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a dependently-typed language, you are often called upon to prove that a value has a certain type < 1261532041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the TC type system < 1261532046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combined with IO < 1261532047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1261532058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the language had a mode in which it was a Total FP language < 1261532066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that language is what you do proofs in? < 1261532074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, your proofs must be sound < 1261532074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1261532083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no using "undefined" to get around type requirements in your proof or whatnot < 1261532087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus ensuring the safety of the language < 1261532103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, spot the bug in that paper < 1261532104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fib (n+2) = fib (n+1) + fib (n+2) < 1261532108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slight oops there :) < 1261532129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amusingly enough that wouldn't be valid in total fp < 1261532132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since n+2 is not reduced < 1261532143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, an accidental case study right in the paper < 1261533365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1261533370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does wikipedia need 7.5 M$ < 1261533380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bandwidth doesn't cost _that_ much < 1261533384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does server space < 1261533451 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this just an intellectual exercise, ehird? < 1261533501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what part < 1261533519 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to be designing a dependently-typed language < 1261533528 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it for? < 1261533542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[01:14] ehird: http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf rest of it is top-notch stuff though. And its mentioning of dependent types makes me really want to find a practical way to do them. < 1261533546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reducing bugs < 1261533556 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean your one specifically < 1261533557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also as intellectual masturbation, yes... like everything we do in this channel < 1261533564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: to do it in a more practical way < 1261533577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not be a proof system like coq and agda and the like < 1261533585 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like DML, ATS and She < 1261533588 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261533591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to have reasonable io working with dependent types < 1261533598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be more haskelly, haskell gets most of the other stuff right < 1261533603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason to deviate when it's not required < 1261533612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to also have compiles be relatively short and the like < 1261533620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a practical dependently-typed language, then < 1261533885 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will need a large library of (beginner level) mathematics to justify termination and correctness for less basic programs, and some kind of plug-in system to hook new decision procedures into elaborating programs < 1261533902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: The Wikimedia Foundation does more than host Wikipedia. < 1261533975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but 7 and a half megabucks? < 1261533995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: not concerned about termination < 1261534004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be partial all you want unless it's in the proof subsystem < 1261534011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a total subset of the language) < 1261534041 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is concerned about termination < 1261534049 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261534057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, true. < 1261534064 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261534070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pulls up the Wikimedia finance report < 1261534116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: point is, though, regular programming should just be like haskell but a little more type-strict goodness and a few more type annotations to prove to the computer that you're not being stupid < 1261534121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, as close to this goal as is possible < 1261534207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$3 million in salaries, $1 million in hosting, $0.2 million for fundraising, $0.3 for travel expensions, $0.7 for facilities... < 1261534223 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what exactly do you mean not being stupid, there is a spectrum of correctness and if you want to reach certain levels the impact on the programmer will have a stronger effect < 1261534231 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.129.113 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261534240 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what do you consider an annotation? < 1261534246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> why does wikipedia need 7.5 M$ <-- secret Mind/Gene Ray control project < 1261534278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, technically it'd be a proof < 1261534285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a total subset of the language < 1261534293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: agreed < 1261534295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused now < 1261534308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you don't know what a total language is, best to just give up on the discussion now :P < 1261534316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of those salaries go to tech support. < 1261534366 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I misread your message < 1261534368 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind < 1261534386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Tech support. Really now. < 1261534401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Wrong fucking term. < 1261534404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 M$ in hosting... seems about right < 1261534406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a long day. XD < 1261534411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.2 M$ for fundraising?! < 1261534412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sys admins. < 1261534414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now come on. < 1261534427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All they do is tell the programmers: "Put a fucking big banner up and link to a video by Jimmy Wales that nobody will watch." < 1261534429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Not big enough." < 1261534430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BIGGER!" < 1261534434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MAKE IT BIGGER THAN THE SUN" < 1261534466 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that's 5.2 M$ < 1261534473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where did the 2.3 M$ come from? < 1261534497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the whole thing. < 1261534507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just some of the larger items. < 1261534579 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't answer my question though -_- < 1261534594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: which < 1261534608 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly do you mean not being stupid < 1261534631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: as in, you read a string from stdin and parse it into a Nat < 1261534642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pass it to a function expecting a (Set.filter (< somenumber) Nat) < 1261534659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this point, the compiler goes "WHOA BOY! I'm gonna have to see some ID for that natural." < 1261534749 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it pure functional? < 1261534769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally. < 1261534805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically your responsibility would be providing a proof that the number you read conforms to (Set.filter (< somenumber) Nat) < 1261534814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. providing a proof that the number < somenumber < 1261534834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd do an if/else to make sure it was, and in the clause where it is ... yer done < 1261535336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: wasn't that question going to lead onto something else? :P < 1261535379 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to gauge where you are targeting but you've just said that it's possible to depend on preconditions < 1261535648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: as opposed to? < 1261535659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly I'm not the most familiar with dependent types; I know the basic structure but not the variations < 1261535688 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you studied the ones I mentioned earlier < 1261535751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> [01:14] ehird: http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf rest of it is top-notch stuff though. And its mentioning of dependent types makes me really want to find a practical way to do them. < 1261535757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no; I will. how are they different from coq/agda style? < 1261535761 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261535767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"§ By 2009, game developers will face… < 1261535767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :§ CPU’s with: < 1261535767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : – 20+ cores" < 1261535775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261535780 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they're a lot closer to what you seem to be describing (which is why I mentioned the) < 1261535783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not his fault progress let him down < 1261535787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many cores does the ps3 have anyway < 1261535809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "80+ hardware threads" is also off < 1261535812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 technically < 1261535812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for PS3 < 1261535822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is PPE the others are SPEs < 1261535829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, well, can't fault a man for being hopeful < 1261535833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: googlin' em up < 1261535836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*'em < 1261535855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can fault Kurzweil for giving him false hope < 1261535860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he turns out to be wrong < 1261535866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kurzweil is wrong. < 1261535880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His dates, certainly. < 1261535888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other stuff, who knows. < 1261535902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he very much chooses and advances his dates based on his expected lifespan. < 1261535923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261535933 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night AnMaster < 1261535943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nightyho. < 1261535944 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261536037 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261536151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Data Manipulation Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < 1261536152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data Manipulation Language (DML) is a family of computer languages used by computer programs and/or database users to insert, delete and update data in a ... < 1261536153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably not that < 1261536159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't get meaningful results for She < 1261536164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found ATS though < 1261536171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you link me to appropriate documents for DML and She? < 1261536205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"While ATS is primarily a language based on eager (aka. call-by-value) evaluation" laaaaame :) < 1261536206 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant Dependent ML < 1261536214 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically ML with arithmetic in the type system < 1261536241 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She is the Strathclide Haskell Extention < 1261536246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just arithmetic? < 1261536257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261536261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer arithmetic? < 1261536265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kidding) < 1261536272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so dml begat ATS < 1261536278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: ah yes, _that_ she < 1261536310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: how does she work, btw? it's just a preprocessor, isn't it? < 1261536314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it can do dependent types like that < 1261536318 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a preprocessor!!!! < 1261536325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The Strathclyde Haskell Enhancement is an experimental preprocessor for the Glasgow Haskell Compiler, concocted hastily by Conor McBride at the University of Strathclyde. Its current functionality includes]] < 1261536326 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what compilers are < 1261536330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-admittedly a preprocessor. < 1261536336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: but do you not distinguish cpp from gcc < 1261536343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I read She output < 1261536347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks very much like haskell, tbh < 1261536354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it really do the full shebang of dependent fun? < 1261536358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type-safe printf, for instance? < 1261536447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so dml is a restricted form of dependent types < 1261536462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be adequate for basic things < 1261536494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ats is impure, it seems. < 1261536692 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she doesn't support full spectrum dependent types < 1261536704 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can do the printf though < 1261536718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly i don't even know if full dependent types are useful < 1261536748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type-safe array indexing, absolutely, type-safe printf, almost certainly < 1261536763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going more expressive than that, though, probably gets very annoying for the programmer thrust those types upon him fast < 1261538479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: didn't you say debian is using grub 2 these days? < 1261538483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :installed debian testing, 1.97 < 1261539038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Linux OOM killer: "it's like a big game of core wars on your computer". < 1261539373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, 1.97 is Grub 2. < 1261539379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1261539382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid versioning system. < 1261539392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they never had a 1.0... < 1261539400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they're using the 1.x for pre-release builds of 2. < 1261539405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL's is much more reasonable. It'd be -3.2 < 1261539414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 2.-3, in traditional major.minor form. < 1261539426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teehee. < 1261539650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically i find that too restricting in the integer form < 1261539652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would do it like this < 1261539656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.-.1 < 1261539661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 2.-.09 < 1261539664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261539857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making root accessible only by sudo for dummies < 1261539860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# passwd -d root < 1261539862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# passwd -l root < 1261539871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to just do -l, but it turns out that leaves the original password after ! < 1261539877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes me uncomfortable, as it will never be used again < 1261539883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one replaces the entire field with a nice clean ! < 1261539971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, default debian includes "vi" as vim but not "vim" < 1261540475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: incidentally, here's the most retarded thing ever: Someone actually made their shell script explicitly execute with dash, not because they required some POSIX-compliant thing that bash and the like lacked, but because they were writing it in POSIX shell, and so used the only POSIX-compliant shell they knew of. < 1261540480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, not like /bin/sh is supposed to be that. < 1261540483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or anything. < 1261540492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not like bash suffices for... well, just about any POSIX shell use. < 1261540493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: That's freaking retarded. < 1261540543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Default Debian kinda has a barebones install, but I didn't realise they were so barebones as to not install vim... < 1261540564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I thought that dash was only used as a small shell for the installer... < 1261540597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ookay, I don't think people in the sudo group are meant to receive email sent to root. < 1261540612 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, probably because I did "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" apt decided to be helpful and send it to me, too. < 1261540616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They have vim. < 1261540619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just called vi. < 1261540625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1261540625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, dash is /bin/sh on Debian. < 1261540631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That's dumb. < 1261540631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing wrong with that. < 1261540637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what this person did? Dummmmmmb. < 1261540640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, it's weird < 1261540642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vi being vim, but not vim being vim, that is. < 1261540649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/sh being dash? < 1261540655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can accept that. < 1261540661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's vim-tiny, which is mostly intended for things-that-call-vi. < 1261540696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/sh should only be a POSIX shell -- beyond that, I don't care so long as I can get me a zsh. < 1261540702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls < 1261540702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: unrecognized prefix: hl < 1261540702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: unparsable value for LS_COLORS environment variable < 1261540711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upgrading to sid breaking your current session's ls. < 1261540713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a new one. < 1261540724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's a new one. < 1261540727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least shutdown still works. < 1261540730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :export LS_COLORS=""? < 1261540745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just rebooted. Probably some bootup stuff changed, anyway. < 1261540749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might as well have it all happy-like. < 1261540891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait, "apt-get autoclean" exists? < 1261540896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently. < 1261540902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, you should totally use aptitude. < 1261540908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it was a bad idea to use autoclean. < 1261540914 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: apt has progressed enough that aptitude is useless < 1261540938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out if there's an apt-get no-i-dont-fucking-want-that-old-kernel < 1261540942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that aptitude had better dependency resolution than apt, and that apt-get was considered outmoded? < 1261540971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, the thing aptitude gives you (remove packages that aren't depended on any more) is now available as "apt-get autoclean". < 1261540980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, it's an extra step, but it informs you they exist whenever you do anything else. < 1261541002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so aptitude doesn't give you anything more than an ncurses interface. < 1261541011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not a great one) < 1261541071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Dnozc.gif < 1261541072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the < 1261541169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.arrangebypenis.com/ < 1261541191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes, http://i.imgur.com/Dnozc.gif the http://www.arrangebypenis.com/! < 1261541277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1261541318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias sag='sudo apt-get' < 1261541318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias sagi='sudo apt-get install' < 1261541321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sweet sanity < 1261541332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sag remove" is rather disturbing though < 1261541421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out where debian wants me to put things < 1261541431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think export EDITOR=vim should go in .profile < 1261541438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those aliases in .bashrc < 1261541454 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds right < 1261541468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's just that debian comes with tons of stuff in the files by default < 1261541483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. .profile includes .bashrc if we're running bash < 1261541491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ $/d < 1261541499 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Aptitude has some other features, like when you perform an operation, it tells you how many packages have changed status < 1261541509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it has better conflict resolution < 1261541570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Mmm. < 1261541608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone ever installed sid by changing the mirrors in the debian-installer testing livecd :) < 1261541619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see any reason it shouldn't be as reliable as upgrading from unstable < 1261541625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for value of reliability equal to not at all) < 1261541653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I thought that that was a supported means of using the livecd? < 1261541663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as supported as anything else in Sid. < 1261541675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The canonical answer is: You don't. You can only upgrade to it from stable or testing. You do that by editing /etc/apt/sources.list and changing your sources from stable to unstable. < 1261541675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some unofficial "sid ISO images" out there. They are dangerous, unofficial and obsolete (by definition!). Stay away from them. < 1261541676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may also be possible to install sid packages instead of testing packages if you're using a net install from the testing branch. This is not supported, but if you want to try it, you're free to do so. It's your machine, after all. Just don't cry if it breaks. < 1261541682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(answer to "How do I install sid?") < 1261541694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer being basically "It might work, and it might work. You know, just like sid LOL" < 1261541732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Should I use sid on my server? < 1261541732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you insane? No!" < 1261541732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FACTUALLY INCORRECT, FAQ-WRITER < 1261541886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing crazier is using Gentoo ** on a server. < 1261541922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meaning KEYWORD_ACCEPT="**", meaning that Portage will feel free to install any package that is marked as being able to compile) < 1261541972 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should note that that's "compile on at least one of Gentoo's architectures", not necessarily "compile on your architecture". < 1261542000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd even accept building FreeBSD libc on Windows doing that. < 1261542003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not too crazy; I'd say rumours of sid's dog-eating are greatly exaggerated < 1261542019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, come on; it's not like Arch will be any stabler < 1261542053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian folk are just the genteel, careful sort. < 1261542081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1261542087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is installing gdb 7 < 1261542092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if FreeBSD libc can build on any non-FreeBSD system... < 1261542120 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1261542126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Net/OpenBSD. < 1261542140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yeah, probably there. < 1261542181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :os x < 1261542206 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect it'll build on most systems. No clue if it will run < 1261542211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo only appears to support it on sparc-fbsd and x86-fbsd. < 1261542222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't mean much, though. < 1261542350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be nice: A sort of blend of awk and sed. < 1261542365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say a script produces foo, a number of spaces depending on the width of foo, and then a size in kilobytes, lots of times.. < 1261542367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*times. < 1261542370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you want it in megabytes. < 1261542400 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl, sir < 1261542405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sewk '/\d+/ { print &/1024 }' < 1261542405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That idea, plus 20 years, is Perl. < 1261542412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but perl is shit. < 1261542420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes it is. < 1261542439 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Perl sucks." --my dad, a Java web programmer < 1261542446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java sucks. < 1261542448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually if you used the awk derivative proposed in the structural regular expressions paper, you could do < 1261542471 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl -e 'while (<>) { s=(\d+)=$1/24=e; print; }' < 1261542476 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so does that mean Portage will actually try to install all those packages, or just that it will be relatively uninhibited? < 1261542480 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awk '/\d+/ { print $1/1024 } /.*/ { print $1 }' < 1261542489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1261542496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It will try to install them if you ask for them. < 1261542510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: using = as a dlimiter. < 1261542513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*delimiter < 1261542517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just awful < 1261542521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a manual while <> loop? < 1261542522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude, -p < 1261542545 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: feel free to use pipe or something < 1261542550 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like = < 1261542551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically the "Fuck off, Gentoo, I know exactly what I want installed" mode. < 1261542569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Fine, then at least: < 1261542578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl -pe 's=\d+=&/24=e' < 1261542583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, less HORRIBLY CONFUSINGLY, < 1261542593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl -pe 's|\d+|&/24|e' < 1261542602 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does while (<>) mean? < 1261542619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<> = read a line from input; if you don't assign it to anything (or maybe even if you do), put it in $_. < 1261542636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :input is either stdin, or if you put multiple files as command line arguments, them in succession (as if catted together) < 1261542645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's false as a boolean if there's no more input < 1261542651 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this "maybe" an ehird-uncertainty maybe or a the-way-Perl-actually-works maybe? < 1261542653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so while (<>) continually slurps lines of input, for processing < 1261542657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: former < 1261542671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Perl is crazy, but not that crazy. < 1261542682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$_ is only used by default if no other variable is specified < 1261542691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, if you specify e as a regexp option, & isn't expanded. < 1261542696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you fuck-shit retarded, Perl. Why. < 1261542697 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 < 1261542699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's merely crazy enough to make parsing equivalent to solving the halting problem. :P < 1261542704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, that's not what & is < 1261542712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& should work to avoid needless parenthesising of the whole expression < 1261542713 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is &? < 1261542717 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261542718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& is what $0 would be\ < 1261542720 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$_ then < 1261542721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\\$// < 1261542724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if $0 wasn't taken < 1261542736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& might be used in the expression < 1261542741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1261542752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so escape it, the regex terminator mighht be too < 1261542754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1261542759 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, $& works < 1261542764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, this works, somehow it fucks up the alignm— wait a second, those results are wrong < 1261542782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261542783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1261542786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$_ is wrong, bitch :P < 1261542828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1261542833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\d was replacing the numbers in the package names < 1261542834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261542861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1261542864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since some of them are < 1261542868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10048 < 1261542869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then < 1261542871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<space>9364 < 1261542876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the replacement messes it up < 1261542901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl should have a thing you can enable so that it analyses how the data is aligned, and keeps that alignment. < 1261542902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261542970 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261542995 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It often seems like other languages use syntactic sugar where Haskell would use a user-definable function. < 1261543004 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes < 1261543009 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is all syntactic sugar < 1261543053 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Lisp has macro thingies. I don't know if I want to wrap my entire program inside one function that changes the program's semantics perhaps significantly. < 1261543061 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, of course, Haskell has lots of syntactic sugar. < 1261543076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots? < 1261543099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I count only a few bits. < 1261543100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to wrap your entire program, macros can be used in subexpressions you know :P < 1261543102 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has too many pieces of syntactic sugar to count on one hand. < 1261543112 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, C++ is C with syntactic sugar. *ducks* < 1261543113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has... < 1261543115 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION inhales. < 1261543122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/ahl6z/i_dare_you_to_set_this_as_your_desktop_background/c0hm413?context=4 < 1261543133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, now I want a rotatable monitor < 1261543183 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newtype declarations, guards, do notation, pattern guards, case statements, list notation, list builder notation... < 1261543194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newtype declarations aren't sugar. < 1261543198 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you're right. < 1261543201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Case statements aren't sugar. < 1261543211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They are. < 1261543216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, either case or pattern matching is sugar. < 1261543221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of irrelevant which one. < 1261543225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you put it as your desktop background and then start pink floyd's "the wall" at the same time as the lion roars on the Wizard of Oz... < 1261543225 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flying monkeys come out of YOUR BUTT" < 1261543226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I thought that the other pattern matching got desugared to case? < 1261543230 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If case statements aren't sugar, then ordinary pattern matching is sugar. < 1261543231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Dunno. < 1261543231 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Pattern matching < 1261543235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's equivalent, either way. < 1261543236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moot point, though. < 1261543241 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantically, it doesn't... what they said. < 1261543280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You managed to name most of the syntactic sugar. < 1261543305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infix functions and list comprehensions are the other two that I can think of. < 1261543321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have some exotic things like mdo notation, do guards, arrow do notation. < 1261543337 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :List comprehensions are what I meant by list builder notation. < 1261543341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mdo notation, do guards, and arrow do notation are GHC extensions. < 1261543353 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? Exotic. < 1261543408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also omitted the (soon-to-be-gone) n+k matches. < 1261543444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they might have already been gone. < 1261543501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are in Haskell 2010. Thank god. < 1261543528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Haskell 2010 has been ratified. < 1261543568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it? < 1261543569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1261543648 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who ratified it? < 1261543730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the commitee < 1261543762 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which committee? < 1261543769 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I have set that image as my desktop background. < 1261543774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Haskell Commitee. < 1261543784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pantomime moment there. < 1261543797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Who ratified it?" "The committee" "Which committee?" "The Haskell Committee." < 1261543819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1261543848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which Haskell Committee? < 1261543858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only Haskell Committee! < 1261543881 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this Haskell Committee have a website? < 1261543890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.haskell.org < 1261543897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which www.haskell.org? < 1261543923 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The www.haskell.org endorsed by haskell.org's nameserver! < 1261543973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which nameserver? < 1261543976 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which haskell.org? The haskell.org endorsed by .org's nameserver! Which .org? The one operated by Afilias Limited! Which Afilias Limited? I dunno, is there more than one? < 1261543993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Which .org? The .org endorsed by .'s nameserver! < 1261543993 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes digging. < 1261544013 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But . has lots of nameservers, each operated by a different company. < 1261544060 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let's see. < 1261544074 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are 11 root nameservers iirc? < 1261544080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261544083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a through m. < 1261544092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's too many letters. < 1261544099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Under root-servers.net < 1261544113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's 13 < 1261544119 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I redefine arithmetic to make you wrong. < 1261544121 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can count! < 1261544142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SWEET BABIES OF LUXURY < 1261544142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ(12) = 11, dammit! < 1261544150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suck 12 equals 11. < 1261544160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU KILLED SOMEONE WHILE PERFORMING ORAL SEX UPON THEM?! < 1261544172 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.haskell.org is the same thing as bugs.haskell.org, according to serv1.net.yale.edu. serv1.net.yale.edu is an authoritative nameserver for haskell.org, according to A2.ORG.AFILIAS-NST.INFO. A2.ORG.AFILIAS-NST.INFO is an authoritative nameserver for .org, according to G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET is an authoritative nameserver for ., according to 209.20.72.4. < 1261544177 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 209.20.72.4 is not an authoritative nameserver. < 1261544189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: No, I am declaring that out of ever 12 instances of oral sex, 11 will survive. < 1261544205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORAL SEX: The hidden killer... IN YOUR PANTS < 1261544216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOX NEWS SPECIAL REPORT < 1261544255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Out of band knowledge confirms that g.root-servers.net is an authoritative nameserver for . (according to ICANN) < 1261544266 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in order to figure out what www.haskell.org is, one must first know what serv1.net.yale.edu and A2.ORG.AFILIAS-NST.INFO are. < 1261544269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish with Debian-Installer you could say "regular install but prompt me for this extra step" < 1261544275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to trundling through the boring expert install < 1261544299 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to figure out what serv1.net.yale.edu is, one must first know what C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET is. < 1261544313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to figure out what any domain is, one must first know what any of [A-M].ROOT-SERVERS.NET are. < 1261544315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it. < 1261544334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The query goes from . down. < 1261544335 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261544336 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to figure out what C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET is, one must first know what C.GTLD-SERV--wait, hang on. < 1261544351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, but . is defined by the root serverrs. < 1261544353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*servers < 1261544354 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hay! Wait! Hang on! < 1261544366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an IPP for any of [A-M].ROOT-SERVERS.NET, you're sorted. < 1261544368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*IP < 1261544377 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I can look at the logs < 1261544413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears that C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET is inaccessible without prior knowledge of C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET < 1261544419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes. The root servers are kinda stuck into BIND. < 1261544423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Wrong. < 1261544450 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you figure out what it is, then? It's the nameserver for .net. < 1261544460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's cool that you only need to know one single IP to be able to browse all the web you want. < 1261544474 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming that /[A-M].ROOT-SERVERS.NET/ matches only one string. < 1261544497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could be locked in a room with only a Forth console plugged into an internet connection, and as long as you can remember one single IP, you can build yourself a full web browser. < 1261544508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And browse the interrwebnets. < 1261544512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Here's how it works: you query [a-m].root-servers.net what net is. You query net what gtld-servers.net is. You query gtld-servers.net what c.gtld-servers.net is. < 1261544537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It'll be difficult, but yes. < 1261544543 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: net isn't a server; you can't query it. < 1261544551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes it is. < 1261544559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question. When Debian "installs the base system", from CD instead of the network, is any of that left at the end of the installation? < 1261544565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it all upgraded from the repos. < 1261544575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: DNS is a pretty easy protocol, isn't it? < 1261544583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah. < 1261544588 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ping tells me that net is an unknown host. dig tells me that net has no A record. < 1261544593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCP/IP would fuck you up, but let's say TCP/IP was on a piece of paper next to you. < 1261544619 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't DNS operate greatly over UDP? < 1261544622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, fine. You query [a-m].root-servers.net what gtld-servers.net is. You query gtld-servers.net what c.gtld-servers.net is. < 1261544624 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it would be simpler to make a client to telnet and make like a raw dumb terminal, or to make a simple gopher client, and so on. < 1261544639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UDP or TCP; both are valid. < 1261544640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it wouldn't be hard from just an internet link, the TCP/UDP/IP specs, one single IP, and knowledge of how to do basic DNS and HTTP requests to load google.com. < 1261544656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A little string manipulation later, voila, dumb-ass web browser. < 1261544663 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you could load google.com easily like that < 1261544666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UDP is generally used for smaller queries, but supporting it isn't mandatory from a client. < 1261544682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A better path may be to connect to IRC and ask for help because dammit they aren't giving me food and I'm not sure where I am and I don't know if they'll let me out and I don't know who they are help helph elp < 1261544686 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you would need HTML and various image file formats, JavaScript, etc, to make the full use. < 1261544697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No. < 1261544698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: HTML and JavaScript are quite self-describing. < 1261544703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can browse the web with freaking nc. < 1261544714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kinda annoying, but you can do it just fine. < 1261544716 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can do a basic HTTP request, you're savvy enough to work out how HTML, CSS and JS work through observation and testing. < 1261544718 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, yes you certainly can, but it isn't very good < 1261544729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're not asking for good. < 1261544733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're asking for functional. < 1261544744 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Success; the root nameservers tell you who the gtld-servers.net people are. < 1261544755 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not too difficult to write a proper HTML, with most things, and a bit harder for JavaScript, although, you would still need it if you wanted it complete < 1261544767 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I should have realized that before. The root zone file is loaded with hints. < 1261544769 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yes, just netcat is good enough to connect < 1261544823 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that if it mentions a domain name, it gives you both an A record and an NS record for it. < 1261544889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that's a good point. Why does Debian netinstall first install from the CD? < 1261544891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is poopy-stupid. < 1261544912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;; AUTHORITY SECTION: < 1261544912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. 10800 IN SOA a.root-servers.net. nstld.verisign-grs.com. 2009122201 1800 900 604800 86400 < 1261544920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if a is somehow more authoritative than the others, or whether someone was just lazy. < 1261544923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from dig .) < 1261544980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dig net." isn't very helpful. < 1261544987 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which system is best for text-adventure games, is it Glulx, or TADS, or Z-machine < 1261545020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, because there's no server there. < 1261545032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dig looks for A and maybe AAAA records for whatever you give it. < 1261545034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There isn't any at ., either. < 1261545043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1261545051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are the special magic root server records. < 1261545065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Inform :P < 1261545068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be cute if . were a domain name of an actual server. < 1261545076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glulx is just a vm < 1261545082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so is z-machine < 1261545083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tads isn't < 1261545086 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a full system < 1261545087 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inform 6 or 7? And it compiles to Glulx and Z-machine, which of those is better < 1261545099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glulx is "cooler" but Z-machine is much more commonly implemented < 1261545103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glulx never took off afaik < 1261545104 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think that in theory, all the root nameservers are mirrors of a.root-servers.net. < 1261545105 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so z-machine < 1261545115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inform 7 if you can stomach the syntax, it's where most the work goes today < 1261545116 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261545121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since there has to be only one primary authoritative nameserver. < 1261545160 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261545160 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS's email address notation is so cute, you know. < 1261545185 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It almost makes you want email addresses to actually be domain names. < 1261545231 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make my own text-adventure game system, too, it is called TAVSYS, see the example http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/tavsys_example_1.png < 1261545253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I not surprised. < 1261545291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised zzo38 doesn't make his own computers. < 1261545296 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it good? < 1261545308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And core memory. On a loom. Of his own design. < 1261545317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261545318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make my own computers. Can I rent a microchip fabrication plant? < 1261545332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would make my own computers, one day. But not yet, because I need the equipment and stuff I would get from help from someone I know < 1261545336 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in send them a design and get back a microchip. < 1261545357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I'm surprised zzo38 doesn't make his own *physics*. < 1261545357 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have the similar question(s) like you, too < 1261545378 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physics??? Really? < 1261545387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: maybe he does, it's just he only communicates through the net so no one notices it's different < 1261545398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, ehird: < 1261545414 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't only communicate through the net < 1261545429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU CANNOT PROVE IT < 1261545432 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo Neither do I! < 1261545432 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither do I! < 1261545433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making my own computers is something I plan to do soon < 1261545452 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, almost soon < 1261545479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts again to install sid via the testing cd < 1261545509 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "G" in the corner is short for "Glk" < 1261545510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is not possible to install sid from a netinst or full CD. Use the netboot installation method, a businesscard CD image, or floppy images (with the net-driver floppies)." < 1261545515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you, Debian-Installer FAQ! < 1261545580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch04s05.html.en < 1261545584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ookay... noot netboot then... < 1261545587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Businesscard image it is. < 1261545697 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say Inform 7 with English sentences make it easier, but I think it actually makes it more confusing, for various reasons, including that you might think it implies something, even though it doesn't imply that < 1261545886 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261545896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you're not the Loper OS guy, are you? < 1261545932 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the Loper OS guy is. < 1261545946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's the guy who writes here: http://www.loper-os.org/ < 1261545950 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261545961 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He rants and says very interesting things. < 1261545983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of like Eliezer Yudkowsky, who fears and writes very interesting things. < 1261545993 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261546201 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261546575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is quite a bit saner than the Loper OS guy. < 1261546581 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vm.overcommit_memory = 2 < 1261546581 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vm.overcommit_ratio = 100 < 1261546581 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to call these two lines the "Not a Turing Machine" Maneuver. < 1261546585 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hey, I *like* that guy. < 1261546606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: He's enjoyable, just somewhat off his rocker. < 1261546618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... The same is true of most notable mathematicians. :P < 1261546623 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be like that. < 1261546632 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don'tt think I've read anything to suggest he's particularly crazy. < 1261546642 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very strong unorthodox opinions, yes... < 1261546642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be thinking of someone else. < 1261546650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1261546653 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think his ambitions are very crazy, just utopian. < 1261546655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I was thinking of Losethos. < 1261546656 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Did you mean the Losethos guy? < 1261546668 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, I absolutely challenge the "somewhat" part. < 1261546670 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the Losethos guy is a bit crazy. < 1261546676 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This guy never had a rocker, and continually beats up the rockers of everyone else. < 1261546698 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh heh. "Bill Gates may be richer than Captain Kirk, / but the Windows OS blows! / And sucks! / At the same time!" < 1261546698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, loper-os is just unorthodox. < 1261546708 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If people think everyone has premarital sex or everyone does drugs, they have no will power to resist. We're gonna have lots of people deciding they're gay. < 1261546708 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like gays. I don't want them openly acting gay. It's yucky. < 1261546708 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God says... doubted fitter stipend containest instituted Hierius < 1261546708 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're gonna be forced to hire them." < 1261546708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's perfectly fine by me. < 1261546709 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— Losethos, in a post to reddit. Not a comment, a post. Title: "Gay Marriage". < 1261546760 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"God's a child molester. < 1261546760 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel16.htm < 1261546760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason why I don't think Losethos is *completely* freaking crazy is because he appears capable of programming. < 1261546760 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big thoughts forced into puny heads." < 1261546766 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait... if he's God-obsessed... < 1261546770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I assume requires some hold on reality. < 1261546772 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he thinks God is a child molester... < 1261546779 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps this guy is not as harmless as you might think P < 1261546781 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1261546781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as tenous as it may be) < 1261546785 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when does ability to program tell you anything about a persons sanity/intelligence? < 1261546787 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tenuous < 1261546792 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: intelligence it does < 1261546796 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not sanity < 1261546797 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261546803 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're completely dissociated from reality you couldn't program < 1261546805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: I'm assuming it demands at least a *modicum* of sanity. < 1261546814 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't beleive either of that < 1261546831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think losethos is as insane as you can be and still program decently. < 1261546843 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: unless you're going to offer arguments, so be it. < 1261546846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be possible to teach a dog programming, if you had an eternally young dog. < 1261546851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And lots of time. < 1261546859 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think someone with IQ 1 could program? < 1261546866 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know IQ isn't a measurement of intelligence really < 1261546876 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyone who scores 1 is either doing it intentionally or is really fucking retarded < 1261546886 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: hey, there's more to discussing than providing argument. < 1261546887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just speaks the wrong language < 1261546900 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yes, but it's a good step up from assertion < 1261546909 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: they're mostly symbol-based, you know < 1261546929 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modern ones are < 1261546965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reputable one is. < 1261546976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION invokes the True Scotsman fallacy for the win < 1261546982 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No IQ test is reputable. < 1261547005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ehird snatches victory out of pikhq's hands. < 1261547017 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to convince you of something < 1261547035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random assertions, then? *shrug* < 1261547045 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"since when does ability to program tell you anything about a persons sanity/intelligence?" is usually interpreted as the start of some kind of back and forth. < 1261547063 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: si hay dos latas, una que contiene cinco galones de agua y una que contiene tres, ÂżcĂłmo se mide cuatro galones de agua? < 1261547075 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Si. Si. Si. Uh... si. < 1261547075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261547075 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1261547092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No, my Spanish is not getting rusty; it's never been better.) < 1261547136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Nani? Watasi ha anata no hen na getsugo wo wakaranai, yo. < 1261547146 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which verse of Ezekiel 16 do you mean? < 1261547146 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Fill the five-gallon container, pour three gallons into the three-gallon container, dump the three out, pour the remaining two into the three-gallon container, fill the five-gallon again, pour the last gallon into the three and voila! you have four < 1261547152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't know Spanish < 1261547153 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: by "ha", do you mean "wa"? < 1261547173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Kanji or GTFO. < 1261547180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, I was doing a very very literal transcription of kana. < 1261547180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I don't have an IME. < 1261547190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I was just quoting Losethos. < 1261547195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God knows what he was thinking in his little mind. < 1261547200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: COPY AND PASTE, FUCKER < 1261547200 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use kanji for every word, including particles. < 1261547211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I knew other languages. < 1261547213 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I have an IME, and I don't even know Japanese. < 1261547214 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes, but which verse number? < 1261547221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not about to write kanbun for your sick and twisted pleasure. :P < 1261547224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know. He did not specify, and I am not telepathic. < 1261547234 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261547244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kanbun being Classical Chinese with annotations on how to read it as Japanese) < 1261547249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing "watasi" is a pronoun. "Anata" looks familiar. What do those two mean? < 1261547269 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read/write kana, too, and some words, and some kanji, but I don't have any IME software on my computer < 1261547278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watasi = I, "anata" = you. < 1261547287 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was easy. < 1261547297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The translation is: I don't speak your strange moon-language. < 1261547321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION arranges that sentence into a Japanese-ish order. < 1261547350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ha you no strange na moon-language wo understand-not < 1261547357 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I your strange moon language not speak. < 1261547381 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, it's the order that I guessed, except that the not is a suffix. < 1261547403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait, Japanese is postfix? < 1261547405 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the "na"? < 1261547409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mental stacks. Wonderful. < 1261547421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Somewhat, yes. < 1261547434 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't Japanese extremely postfix? < 1261547448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Makes the "hen" into an adjective. < 1261547456 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is postfix in some ways, like, you put verb at the end, for one thing < 1261547481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's postfix in some ways, like, it's postfix." < 1261547489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261547490 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes. < 1261547504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't even need to be concious to write programs < 1261547528 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says that Japanese is quite strictly left-branching: modifiers tend to precede heads. < 1261547530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ha" = subject, "no" = possessive, "na" = adjective, "wo" = object... < 1261547563 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sorts of things are "hen" and "getsugo"? < 1261547580 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can search on WWWJDIC. < 1261547589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hen" is an adjective of Chinese origin, and "getsugo" is a noun. < 1261547597 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need Japanese fonts on your computer to use WWWJDIC < 1261547606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Composed of "moon" (getsu) and "go" (language) < 1261547609 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But IME is not required < 1261547647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that Go, the board game, is not named that because that word means "language". < 1261547649 0 :Oranjer!n=HP_Admin@adsl-71-18-51.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261547655 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1261547662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/soap/simple < 1261547662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entertaining! < 1261547668 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can "hen" be used without that "na" after it? < 1261547690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[05:51] soupdragon: you don't even need to be concious to write programs < 1261547691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to be conscious to write programs as anything but a spontaneous action < 1261547704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: The word for go in Japanese is "igo". < 1261547711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not as an adjective. < 1261547712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you could argue that any group of particles in the universe could suddenly spontaneously turn into a program < 1261547721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would be writing a prograagm < 1261547732 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How else can it be used? < 1261547733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, wossname, ideotic < 1261547736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it can be combined with other words, though. See the adjective "hentai") < 1261547760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1261547766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just bring the word "hentai" into a discussion about Japanese. That's utterly surprising and unexpected. < 1261547774 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hentai is an adjective? < 1261547776 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1261547782 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is in Japanese, I guess. < 1261547788 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes < 1261547804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks it up on Wikipedia. Yes. < 1261547820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Graphic hentai representation." —a caption < 1261547826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's one way of wording it, Wikipedia. < 1261547840 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: does not the act of writing require a writer? and does not spontaneous creation require the lack of a creator? < 1261547855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not your mother require the lack of a creator? < 1261547865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She is so hideous, after all. < 1261547865 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I beg your pardon < 1261547877 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can find a lot of Japanese words in WWWJDIC. But, some are still missing. But you can search both kana and kanji, and it will tell you the kana for every word, and examples of Japanese writings, too. And also stroke-orders < 1261547887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doest thou not know of ehird's particular desire for thy mother? < 1261547899 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that the problem seems to reside completely in soupdragon's use of the word "write" < 1261547903 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not really what I meant.. < 1261547912 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, not understanding the context, I have no fucking clue < 1261547913 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261547925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What Would Wally Jones Dickinson Ian Conjure? < 1261547963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey hey, sid installed from scratch. < 1261547967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No filthy testing influence here, nosiree. < 1261547992 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay? < 1261548034 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World-Wide War One Dictionary. < 1261548038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with sudo set up by default, too. Who says Debian don't do none of that thingymagic. < 1261548118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it adds your username, instead of adding you to the sudo group. < 1261548291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261548296 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261548324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest90348 < 1261548334 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1261548613 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I don't know the answer do your question, but that isn't what WWWJDIC is supposed to be short for. < 1261548626 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it short for < 1261548644 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World Wide Web Japan Dictionary < 1261548652 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Japan/Japanese/ < 1261548693 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1261548715 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QUIT :" < 1261548727 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhhhhh < 1261548737 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the IC mean < 1261548760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the IC in DICtionary. < 1261548961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION believes that "xorg" is the package to install for x magic on debian < 1261548970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to any more complicated, xorg-involving name. < 1261549278 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261549352 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_More*_With_Footnotes <- must find < 1261549368 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261549420 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds awesome, coppro < 1261549473 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261549602 0 :Guest90348!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1261549666 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261550488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes xdm actually look acceptable < 1261550711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird < 1261550745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/CKKDi.png ;; ok, admittedly, the actual login window thingy could do with a slightly lighter background < 1261550748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it sure as hell beats http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png < 1261551245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1261551250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mouse produces keyboard events in debian < 1261551261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? < 1261551273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seemingly unpredictably < 1261551276 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-7-136.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261551286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, holding down the middle button and dragging seems to select everything aand middle-click-paste it forever < 1261551289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and < 1261551326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to see if debian would like it better as a usb device < 1261551423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to. < 1261551827 0 :mental_!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261552164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, and I am left again with the task of figuring out what file debian wants me to put x resources in < 1261552175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, no < 1261552237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try xev < 1261552243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1261552250 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see what your mouse is doing < 1261552261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261552262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed that < 1261552270 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I like playing with xev :D < 1261552648 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, what's the proper way to say yes in xresources files < 1261552650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? true? < 1261552744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261552884 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-162-149-220.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261553140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know if there's xfontsel for xft? < 1261553639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261553657 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261554732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to find out where the hell the x11 cursor themes are < 1261554742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i enter my wm i get an ugly red cursor theme... < 1261555199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261555200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261555593 0 :mental_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament < 1261555778 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to write a CSS renderer < 1261555869 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a whole layout engine for that < 1261555873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm rather < 1261555875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a whole rendering engine < 1261555880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really write just a css renderer... < 1261555882 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261555885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, the box model is hell < 1261555887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes and no < 1261555892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a rendering engine for CSS < 1261555905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it's integrally tied to the layout engine < 1261555908 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't need to implement any markup or anything < 1261555912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and really has to be part of it tbh < 1261555923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and writing a layout engine is a super-massive-gigantic task < 1261555960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: < 1261555974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#000 on #BBB terminal, dejavu sans mono 10pt < 1261555978 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261555983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with #888 desktop background < 1261555985 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soothing! < 1261555995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and like 5px #000 window borders from lwm...) < 1261556012 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer 8pt < 1261556016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll go data-from-some-source + CSS -> render < 1261556059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8pt is not soothing unless you have a low dpi screen with the dpi set to 96 or something that isn't really the dpi < 1261556081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure about the dpi < 1261556087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#000 on #BBB is quite close to a book in non-bright lighting conditions < 1261556089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nice < 1261556101 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, css operates on html/xml < 1261556112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which both parse to basically the same thing (xml's parse tree being a subset) < 1261556122 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261556126 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CSS operates on data of any form < 1261556127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261556129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: false < 1261556141 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's often used on HTML/XML, but the spec need not be specific to them < 1261556152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This document specifies level 1 of the Cascading Style Sheet mechanism (CSS1). CSS1 is a simple style sheet mechanism that allows authors and readers to attach style (e.g. fonts, colors and spacing) to HTML documents < 1261556168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This specification defines Cascading Style Sheets, level 2 revision 1 (CSS 2.1). CSS 2.1 is a style sheet language that allows authors and users to attach style (e.g., fonts and spacing) to structured documents (e.g., HTML documents and XML applications). By separating the presentation style of documents from the content of documents, CSS 2.1 simplifies Web authoring and site maintenance. < 1261556175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so css level 1 is html only < 1261556179 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :css 2 may say structured documents < 1261556185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the syntax used, really, won't lend itself to anythhing else < 1261556192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it totally is html/xml specific < 1261556196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitch :P < 1261556208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as long as it has the same semantics i guess < 1261556209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1261556229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if you're calling it a "CSS renderer" that's a really bad name, as it undermines the immense difficulty of a layout engine :P < 1261556259 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's necessarily html/xml-specific. It could be used for JSON, for all CSS cares < 1261556278 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(granted, there would be a limited subset of usable features, simply because JSON is less powerful) < 1261556285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1261556300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd highly recommend structuring it as XMLDoc → Rendered, though < 1261556304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because everything else reduces to that < 1261556308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the immense complexity of xml < 1261556311 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261556323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because xml gives you xhtml, which is very common in practice and so probably should be supported < 1261556340 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261556344 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261556378 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The input will be through an API, I'm thinking < 1261556384 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so writing an XML plugin could be done < 1261556388 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is not necessary < 1261556485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needless complexity if xml is a subset of all the others < 1261556496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you gave the base stuff simple enough names and made the rest optional you wouldn't even have to call it XML < 1261556500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just Doc < 1261556500 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's less complex < 1261556507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I don't need to write or use an XML parser < 1261556514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't here either < 1261556527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just saying to use one data structure, and have it be XML's structure < 1261556540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then "plugins" simply become render(parseXML(...)) < 1261556542 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The data structure will be binary, though, not text < 1261556546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or render(parseJSON(...)) all returning a Doc < 1261556548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it'll be a struct < 1261556556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you unable to comprehend that XML has an internal structure? < 1261556560 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it does < 1261556567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and CSS does require a hierarchical structure < 1261556577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not like it will be all that dissimilar from XML < 1261556581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tag = namespace+attributes[name→str]+children[tag]+... < 1261556590 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1261556592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, for e.g. json, you'd just set tag.name and tag.children < 1261556600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is, "tag" there is xml < 1261556609 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"element" is CSS < 1261556611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't see where plugins come into it < 1261556621 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I simply meant it would not be standalone < 1261556625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has C++ addled your mind so much that you can't comprehend the idea of a function returning a Doc or whatever? < 1261556635 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing! < 1261556710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it will render to an OpenGL surface < 1261556732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: seriously? rendering engine is separate from the actual display < 1261556744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing, the layout constantly drastically changes in quite a lot of renderings < 1261556753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if you're loading the content (not the css) incrementally < 1261556767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: What do you recommend I choose as the target data then? < 1261556783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an OpenGL surface seems like the LCD < 1261556785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's up to you, innit :P I'm no expert in writing t hem, I just know a little about how they work < 1261556801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, let's put it this way < 1261556803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resize a browser window < 1261556807 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think it totally re-renders the page? < 1261556817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my functional brain tells me to make it based on fluid constraints < 1261556820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like TeX < 1261556826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elements pushing away from other elements, etc < 1261556832 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but what's that got to do with OpenGL? < 1261556842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't "render to an opengl surface" < 1261556847 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRP yeeeaaaahhh < 1261556848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you render to an abstract data structure, then draw that < 1261556864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: btw opengl has problems with the idea of a "pixel" < 1261556867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expect fuzziness < 1261556873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd suggest sdl < 1261556887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261556891 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need to look into this I guess < 1261556903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would anyways, but now I need to look into it more!) < 1261556913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you come out of this anything other than gibbering I will be astounded. < 1261556918 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261556957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know the proper way to change x11 resolution in this hal day and age < 1261556968 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xrandr < 1261556994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's on the fly < 1261557002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean changing the initial resolution permanently < 1261557070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xorg.conf, then < 1261557136 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's so... obsolete... < 1261557159 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1261557176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old != obsolete < 1261557229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he can get away with just < 1261557253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Section "Screen" < 1261557253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : SubSection "Display" < 1261557253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Modes "1360x768" < 1261557253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : EndSubSection < 1261557256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EndSection < 1261557267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get it to generate the current config for you < 1261557268 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget how < 1261557272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that stops the hal stuff < 1261557416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that just made x give up < 1261557462 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261557534 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you can also put xrandr in your x startup script < 1261557572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, since i rebooted virtualbox is now just letting me resize the vm to my preferred window size < 1261557577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and adjusting the resolution appropriately < 1261557578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet. < 1261557588 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you installed the extensions < 1261557601 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll work < 1261557604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the OSE ones from debian's repository. works with the proprietary version :P < 1261557630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what browser to stick on this thing < 1261557673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox is shitty, midori has weird interface quirks, arora had some annoying glitch last time I used it < 1261557717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias sag='sudo apt-get' < 1261557717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias sagi='sudo apt-get install' < 1261557717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alias acs='apt-cache search' < 1261557718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ lifesavers < 1261557753 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konqueror :P < 1261557759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why x11 mouse acceleration sucks so much < 1261557772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: has konqueror even switched over to webkit yet < 1261557780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue < 1261557781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it still KH"It is 2003"TML < 1261557784 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't used it in ages < 1261557790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I kinda dislike the whole kitchen-sink thing :P < 1261557795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mass of KDE dependencies thing < 1261557798 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree < 1261557804 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree in principle but not in practice < 1261557821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never ever thought "I wish I could just type in a file URL now and start browsing my files" < 1261557831 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in Windows where the shell doesn't exist < 1261557835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't count < 1261557853 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(practice being the fact that I use KDE, so a mass of KDE dependencies is largely a non-event) < 1261557897 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs arora < 1261557963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, andrew cooke packed even more text into his site: http://www.acooke.org/ < 1261557969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and dropped the lowercase fun! < 1261557985 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-56-31.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261557990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels an urge to link the CSS Zen Garden < 1261558083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :css zen garden was fun. < 1261558090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, arora still has the glitch < 1261558093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the maddening begins now < 1261558107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sagi feh" < 1261558115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realised i'm using klingonux < 1261558118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :klingux < 1261558188 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madness? < 1261558212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is pooper. < 1261558217 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MADNESS?? < 1261558222 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261558239 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what glitch? < 1261558250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/NLThT.png bask in the soothing colours and fonts < 1261558262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: arora semi-randomly either underlines or non-underlines underlined links < 1261558272 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://createyourproglang.com/ roffffffffl < 1261558274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes the whole thing feel unstable < 1261558278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is uberugly < 1261558293 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: is there a bug filed? < 1261558324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: rather lame marketinig site, marc-andrĂ© cournoyer's little language implementations are cool thouough < 1261558326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*though < 1261558336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean they're all llvm and stuff, so probably the book has that too < 1261558342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i don't know whether there's a bug filed < 1261558348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it was linked from that acooke guy < 1261558351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably most people can't reproduce it < 1261558358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrew cooke is the one who proved malbolge TC < 1261558361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm no < 1261558365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's the one who did hello world in it < 1261558369 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixed up my momentous tasks there < 1261558373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261558373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/NLThT.png < 1261558374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BASK < 1261558375 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you scroll down, it says it does LLVM < 1261558381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar < 1261558416 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just funny because it looks like Plain English in terms of quality, but clearly the guy actually knows what he's talking about < 1261558439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i think it's aimed at the ruby post-ironic hipstercore market < 1261558622 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261558717 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cool how lwm's resize widgets show the size in pixels for everything but terminal windows, where it shows lines/cols < 1261558739 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure KDE can do the same < 1261558749 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still awesome < 1261558752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it turned off for normal window resizes < 1261558754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to lok < 1261558756 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*look < 1261558787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lwm seems to be a pretty rad window manager < 1261558817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimalist, not-entirely-wacky mouse controls, window hiding (goes to a right-click menu on the root window), and easy program triggering (buttons 1 and 2 on the root window; just 2 by default) < 1261558838 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, there doesn't appear to be a plugin for that. I thought there was. < 1261558849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a neat effect that highlights areas of the screen that get rerendered < 1261558869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can see how frequently your application is painting individual areas < 1261558901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, i think vbox is telling vm my screen dpi < 1261558905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus weirding everything up < 1261558911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even manages to refrain from counting the mouse movements < 1261558916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should leave it like this; it's trippy < 1261558970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you hear that I'm using xdm and it's not breaking my eyes? pretty astonishing news imo < 1261558973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know it was possibble < 1261558995 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dm doesn't do very much, really < 1261559027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excuse me < 1261559044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Xdm_Screenshot.png < 1261559048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what xdm normally looks like < 1261559115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/CKKDi.png this, but with a lighter background (#AAA) on the actual login window, is what i'm using < 1261559124 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is obvious. Log in and use startx < 1261559164 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DM's are overrated! < 1261559168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though they are nice < 1261559182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want x to start auto after login, no real easy way to do that withotu a dm < 1261559188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might as well change the display mode while we're at it < 1261559195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*withouut < 1261559197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*without < 1261559207 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put it in your .bashrc? < 1261559215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ruin all shells? < 1261559226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers trying chromium < 1261559230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like my window decorations... < 1261559271 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just make all shells start an X server when you log in! < 1261559290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaks console < 1261559295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, if you silence the command and run it in the background, it will work fine) < 1261559323 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :startx will fail because :0.0 is already in use, and you're happy < 1261559330 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disown it, even < 1261559368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think an ubuntu repo for chromium will wowrk? < 1261559373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, i'll install a deb first < 1261559375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to see if i want it < 1261559402 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ba-ba-ba-bum bum ba-ba-bum < 1261559419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to sleep soon < 1261559436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1261559445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when'd you sleep < 1261559470 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly this time last night < 1261559476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleeping != disconnecting < 1261559489 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, me being disconnected is usually a good indication I'm not sleeping < 1261559527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 9am here for me, so that's connfusing < 1261559535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know is i didn't sleep the whole night < 1261559543 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i woke up at like 4pm the day before < 1261559546 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problematic for brain. < 1261559587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2am < 1261560141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh. Chrome would be perfect for this if I could make it use the native GTK theme, except for the main background. < 1261560370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember the name of that simple program that did alt+f2 launching < 1261560452 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261560457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to sleep, expecting Mars to wake him up... ba-ba-ba-bum bum ba-ba-bum < 1261560478 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261560485 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-1-250.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261560489 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261560853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261561254 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261562455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261562459 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261563404 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-81-109-247-252.winn.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261564374 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261564711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, some spammer got around my mental spam filters by writing in first person plural < 1261564720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I read a whole half a sentence before I realised it was spam < 1261566574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261566959 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261567754 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1261568463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1261568488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, merry xmas btw I guess (since I will be away tomorrow) < 1261568524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you will probably be away the day after that?) < 1261568542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1261568552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I'll more likely be here to be with the family than I would be otherwise, I think < 1261568562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1261568562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll all be here I suspect, due to not being able to fit everyone anywhere else < 1261568575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what day is Christmas in your country? < 1261568580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 25th here in the UK < 1261568584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apparently 24th in Germany < 1261568585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, presents are on the 24th < 1261568592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261568594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to it being the Christmas eve < 1261568604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, they're technically the 26th but everyone but very religious people ignores that < 1261568607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving the presents on the Christmas day? What a strange idea < 1261568614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gives on the 25th instead < 1261568630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the 25th being the Christmas day or Christmas eve? < 1261568637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25th is christmas day < 1261568646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christmas eve is when half of people traditionally /buy/ the presents < 1261568650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to having left it until the last minute < 1261568656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the shops stay open late and triple their prices < 1261568662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there is a simple explanation for it. Work hours rules for Father Christmas :P < 1261568667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he has to spread it out < 1261568684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course in Russia he uses a subcontractor iirc < 1261568694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :St. Nicolaus or something iirc? < 1261568710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's secretly helped by all the dads in the country < 1261568720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's how he manages to get into houses, they unlock the door for him < 1261568731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or deliver the presents themselves if he can't route everywhere in time < 1261568739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the travelling salesman problem hasn't been solved efficently yet... < 1261568743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes, this is related to population growing exponentially, while his capacity growing geometrically < 1261568765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that that rule is about food supply is a common misconception) < 1261568814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't an A* search (or whatever the name was) reasonably efficient for the traveling salesman problem < 1261568822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no, that was just route finding < 1261568827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between A and B < 1261568832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A* is decent for route finding if you know both endpoints in advance < 1261568834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget what I said < 1261568843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dijkstra if you only know one endpoint in advance < 1261568876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can't you do some sort of dynamic programming or such to make it reasonably manageable? < 1261568882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traveling salesman I mean < 1261568885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for NetHack routing you really need an algorithm that works even if you know zero endpoints in advance, and the map is changing meanwhile < 1261568887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc there was some xkcd about it < 1261568899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, there are algorithms which do good enough for practical uses < 1261568922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you want /the best/ answer, you can't do it quickly with current maths < 1261568941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm btw can you explain what that thing about NP complete problems being reducible to each other is about? < 1261568959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just the same as you can express it as a variant of the other problem? < 1261568992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, well with NP-complete problems, the idea is that you can set up one problem in such a way that solving it would be a solution to another as well < 1261568998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much like compiling esolangs into each other < 1261569000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just with problems < 1261569000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261569019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then if you solved one of them efficiently you could just use that to solve all the other ones? < 1261569037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that only true for some disjunct subsets of the NP complete problems? < 1261569087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, could you for example use the quantum integer factorization algorithm to solve the travelling salesman problem? < 1261569166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-complete are all in the same computational complexity class < 1261569172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1261569178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of the same way Turing-complete works < 1261569183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does that mean that they can be reduced to each other < 1261569192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP is "below" in the sense that NP-complete can be reduced to NP-complete, or anything else in NP < 1261569207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it did, would that mean that all problems in P were also reducible to each other? < 1261569219 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't see why that would be the case < 1261569226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the case that all NP is reducible to each other < 1261569228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261569231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261569234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261569241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that all NP-complete is reducible to all NP (including all NP-complete) < 1261569286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all P is trivially in NP, by the way < 1261569294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole P = NP problem is to prove that it's also the other way round < 1261569308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or alternatively show that it isn't) < 1261569344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm having trouble parsing "<ais523> just that all NP-complete is reducible to all NP (including all NP-complete)" < 1261569363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, do you mean there is a common "root problem" that all NP complete problems can be reduced to? < 1261569383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, any NP-complete problem < 1261569393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261569418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... just like any TC language can implement any program that a turing machine can run < 1261569424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261569424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that includes other TC languages < 1261569430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also, things like BF-PDA < 1261569446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't Turing/complete/, even though you can run it on a Turing machine < 1261569451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-completeness is much the same < 1261569475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so then you could in theory express traveling salesman in terms of integer factorization? < 1261569476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if something is in NP, then you can 'emulate' it with any NP-complete problem (as in, a solution to the second is a solution to the first) < 1261569479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1261569486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1261569489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that those are both well-known, it's probably already been done < 1261569509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ordinary integer factorization probably isn't NP-complete < 1261569519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and then solve it quickly with Shor's algorithm? < 1261569525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm? < 1261569538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: integer factorization is in NP, but not known to be NP-complete < 1261569545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I thought it was < 1261569545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort-of, dupdog range in our analogy < 1261569554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dupdog? < 1261569562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dupdog < 1261569595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we (as in this channel) think it's probably sub-TC, but are unable to prove it < 1261569601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, were last time the subject came up < 1261569606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261569610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting esolang < 1261569636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it says unknown computational class for dupdog < 1261569642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1261569644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what you meant < 1261569647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1261569656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, something for oerjan? < 1261569664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all he managed slashes < 1261569671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dupdog's much nastier than slashes < 1261569682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I did spend quite a bit of thought about before he decided to try it < 1261569696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't come up with any sensible way to do non-trivial loops for example < 1261569699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried /// once; I failed, but I could see sort-of how to do it and think the issue was just bugs in my compiler, rather than a fundamental failure of the method < 1261569707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor any unsensible way) < 1261569754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically, quining < 1261569755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm sensible is not the opposite of insensible is it? And aspell suggests unsensible doesn't exists < 1261569768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261569769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oppositie of sensible is senseless, or sily < 1261569772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*silly < 1261569778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261569796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither's an exact opposite; English's weird like that < 1261569802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and inflammable means something doesn't burn easily. Who said English had to make sense... < 1261569813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, inflammable means it does burn easily < 1261569819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, whoosh! < 1261569822 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flammable also means it does burn easily < 1261569835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hmm... stating a blatantly wrong fact then whooshing when people correct you? < 1261569848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I thought it was obvious it was sarcasm < 1261569857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it wasn't obvious, it's a common mistake < 1261569860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an iwc joke about that some time ago, forgot you didn't read it < 1261569875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably only among actual English people, though, foreigners are more likely to look up what a word means < 1261569879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the natives just guess < 1261569882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally incorrectly < 1261569886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261569887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1261569929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw have you heard about Mike Riley < 1261569931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sad news < 1261569936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't < 1261569969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, planning to commit suicide, depression. Ehird and me has been working on trying to get him not to do it and trying to contact people who might help < 1261569987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, that's bad < 1261570008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try contacting the police where he lives < 1261570052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah, major depressions, getting worse very time, < 1261570066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also that is Las Vegas, a bit hard to find him there I imagine < 1261570094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, underlying cause he said was a "major birth defect" and didn't want to get into more details < 1261570232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is, I'm really not sure what to do beyond that < 1261570233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but yes, we probably will contact them today. Tried various other ways first. (Why do good samaritans not have email except in a few places, none of them being Nevada...) < 1261570295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/major/s/very/every/ < 1261570327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that sed expression won't work < 1261570339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/major d/s/very/every/ < 1261570340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would < 1261570361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yes police probably is the only way left < 1261571181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261571217 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261571385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I will need your help with formal English in a bit < 1261571417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably in private message < 1261572259 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574595 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261574595 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261574595 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261574595 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261574595 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261574669 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574669 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574669 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574669 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574669 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574669 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261574736 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261574985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> ais523, something for oerjan? < 1261574996 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure i've pondered dupdog < 1261575001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gotten nowhere < 1261575003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so am I < 1261575066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> AnMaster: hmm... stating a blatantly wrong fact then whooshing when people correct you? < 1261575080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the whoosh here consists of runaway flames... < 1261576805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi there. < 1261576860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, chap < 1261577003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw d&d has been timing out for me today. is it down for you too? < 1261577166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't checked, since it's wednesday < 1261577191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah I wanted to check the annotation, think I forgot to read it yesterday (the annotation, not the strip) < 1261577201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except i read yesterday's a bit late, this morning, and it was fine < 1261577230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm looks slow yes < 1261577246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and timed out < 1261577882 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261580705 0 :benuphoenix!n=Schrodin@163.sub-97-2-74.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261580829 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261581213 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261581878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: d&d is loading again < 1261581965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1261582061 0 :wawl!n=wawl@47-112.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1261582064 0 :wawl!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261582069 0 :wawl!n=wawl@47-112.78-83.cust.bluewin.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1261582149 0 :wawl!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261585869 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261586403 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261587795 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1261587856 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261587927 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261588731 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261588844 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261588848 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261590617 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261590634 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261591579 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261591594 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261593620 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-13-21-224.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261594268 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261594710 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261594865 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261594882 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261594901 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261594970 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261595981 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1261595985 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261596056 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261597927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1261598650 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261598659 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Two young men caught cycling with no clothes on have escaped charges of offensive behaviour, but received a warning to wear protective headgear." < 1261598692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehird < 1261598702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and technically, going around naked is legal just so long as nobody complains < 1261598714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was in NZ < 1261598720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where it's illegal < 1261598726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261598761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:44:06 <ais523> christmas eve is when half of people traditionally /buy/ the presents < 1261598761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's worryingly close to where i'm heading... < 1261598782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I buy and give the presents at any time at random, more or less < 1261598787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I can think of something worth giving < 1261598797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christmas is more trouble than it's worth < 1261598797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a rather non-traditional approach to that sort of thing.... < 1261598818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secular christmas confuses me, I think it was invented by shops to sell useless stuff < 1261598826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it lasts far too long nowadays, months in some cases < 1261598873 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that confusing? < 1261598890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I believe too much in economics < 1261598895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I don't get why people buy overpriced stuff < 1261598903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re santa: http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/physicsofsanta.html < 1261598913 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you need to make people want to buy your stuff < 1261598928 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: one good way to do that is to change the whole culture to make this stuff more desirable < 1261598929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you buy an overpriced item if there is no suitable alternative < 1261598939 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which is what happens with christmas < 1261598949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: then it arguably isn't overpriced < 1261598984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so happy that lwm does clever window placement < 1261599010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, it's not overpriced < 1261599018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what isn't? < 1261599024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's a very vague statement < 1261599028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some things are overpriced, some aren't < 1261599031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet people seem to like buying both < 1261599042 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what that has to do with christmas < 1261599051 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said christmas confused you < 1261599064 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-149-220.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261599070 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buying overpriced stuff is completely orthogonal to christmas < 1261599074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, people seem a lot more inclined to buy useless things at christmas < 1261599076 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :christmas is about buying *useless* stuff < 1261599078 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261599080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261599082 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useless, not overpriced < 1261599090 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useless is overpriced by definition < 1261599117 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you buy it for 0 < 1261599123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you know of any decent non-epiphany webkit browser for linux? < 1261599129 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i thought "overpriced" meant "above market value" < 1261599131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not arora, not midori, not google chrome < 1261599147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, my browser knowledge is rather small < 1261599157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the way you describe chrome as non-decent, though < 1261599170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish lwm let me raies a window to the top by clickiing on its contents, though, not just the title bar... < 1261599179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it installs a cronjob that add's google's deb repo to the repo list (on Ubuntu at least) < 1261599181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, chrome is alright < 1261599191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, yes, it's rather weird, but the browser itself is fine < 1261599195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for a few things < 1261599214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best I've found so far, though < 1261599222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what issues do you have with it? < 1261599259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the update thing doesn't sit well with me of course; i can't use the ubuntu chromium ppa, which I'd prefer to, because I'm on debian (sid) < 1261599265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1261599275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i have it set to use my WM's window decorations, because I like them, < 1261599284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the background of the tab bar looks kinda weird < 1261599290 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the tabs are too close to the title bar < 1261599295 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could fix this partly < 1261599306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I made the background of the tab bar the colour of my WM's decorations < 1261599312 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(black focused, grey unfocused) < 1261599320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I'd expect to be able to focus the window, drag the window, etc by it < 1261599323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, time to go home < 1261599327 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides I can't figure out how to do it < 1261599330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, did you know? < 1261599331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love to stay and talk longer, we keep missing each other < 1261599334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mike riley is going to commit suicide... < 1261599342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just remembered to tell you < 1261599344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster told me, and wrote an email to the police < 1261599349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good < 1261599381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, bye < 1261599393 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, just waiting for CPAN to finish < 1261599402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid CPAN, I keep forgetting to check for prompts < 1261599410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: here, let me give you two screenshots first that you don't care about! < 1261599495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://i.imgur.com/ELeEq.png believe it or not, this is actually xdm < 1261599509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261599512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, horrible-pseudo-3d-italic-blue-text-with-rubbish-logo-to-the-side-and-the-awful-X11-checkered-background xdm < 1261599517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I tamed the beast! < 1261599523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/NLThT.png < 1261599523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the grey pattern on the title bar correct? < 1261599533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is lwm with a urxvt < 1261599537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sooothing colours and fonts < 1261599547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you mean the gradient on the OS X window? < 1261599551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261599557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have fond memories of xdm, anyway < 1261599567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "correct"? < 1261599574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking exactly as in Mac OS X < 1261599577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to go, anyway < 1261599577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261599580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's my VM window < 1261599587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261599588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261600511 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261600516 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning, America! < 1261600534 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning, good morning, good morning. < 1261600538 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that, anyway. < 1261600539 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261600543 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261600546 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1261600549 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261600556 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261600627 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-13-21-224.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261600745 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mike Riley update: he's seeing a therapist < 1261600782 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invite him to #esoteric < 1261600800 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being in here shatters the psyches of even the strongest men < 1261600928 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261601049 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: As in "is now seeing" or "has been seeing" < 1261601064 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has started seeing. < 1261601073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1261601170 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, /set theme colorless makes irssi nice. < 1261601191 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still wish it somehow integrated with my terminal's scrollbar, but you know, that's just too much to ask for. < 1261601558 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261601741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: How'd you set XDM to look nice, anyways? < 1261601770 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, put "xsetroot -solid rgb:8/8/8" or whatever you want in /etc/X11/xdm/Xsetup. < 1261601794 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, well, look at Xresources in the same directory. < 1261601809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray. < 1261601813 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set the fonts, changed borderWidth, frameWidith and innerFramesWidth to 0, < 1261601818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not suck! < 1261601822 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shdColor and hiColor to black, background to #AAAAAA (both of them). < 1261601825 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some other tweaks. < 1261601838 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and commented out the lines that add the Debian logo. < 1261601850 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And changed greeting to just CLIENTHOST. < 1261601926 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You still using Conkeror as your browser? I'm <-> this close to surrendering to the Gecko forces... but yeck. < 1261601971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Yeah, still using it. < 1261602019 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, feh(1) is cool. < 1261602048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1261602066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if xft: fonts work for this < 1261602074 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1261602086 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have -adobe-helvetica thingies in the font, and yet it uses the vector version. < 1261602087 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like, since I've got xft in my USE flags, "yes". < 1261602095 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't tell you why, but clearly it's using Xft for every font. < 1261602101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I assume an explicit xft: will work. < 1261602140 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, -*-fixed-bold-*-*-*-15-*-*-*-*-*-*-* isn't such a bad font. < 1261602145 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it for my titlebars here. < 1261602166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man page agrees... < 1261602242 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RESTRICTIONS Xedit is not a replacement to Emacs. < 1261602315 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, "foo 2>| bar" should work. < 1261602335 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo >out 2>|less < 1261602364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Just about got it nice. < 1261602384 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give you my Xresources file if you're a fan of gray and Helvetica. < 1261602386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xdm is capable of *not* looking like shit. :) < 1261602408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gray and Dejavu Sans for XDM. < 1261602454 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/ELeEq.png < 1261602463 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that _is_ DejaVu Sans. < 1261602469 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xdm must be substituting it for Helvetica. < 1261602473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like it, actually. < 1261602477 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I should put Sans in directly. < 1261602487 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somehow like the serifs on the hostname. < 1261602491 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Breaks the monotony. :P < 1261602531 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish bash-completion wasn't so darned slow. < 1261602553 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I bet sid is stabler than Gentoo. :P < 1261602608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261602616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knowing Debian? Probably. < 1261602632 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I installed this system yesterday and there haven't even been any updates! < 1261602632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We've only tested it for a couple of months! Straight!" < 1261602669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird_> I wish bash-completion wasn't so darned slow. <-- it isn't? < 1261602679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is first time after boot IME < 1261602693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably cache effects < 1261602693 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it is, like .3s delay completing just a lowly filename. < 1261602700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, not for me < 1261602707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, are you running native or in VM? < 1261602716 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VM, but on properly virtualising hardware. < 1261602752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :351 megs of ram, 299 free < 1261602759 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is the -/+ buffers/cache one) < 1261602764 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously only 31 megs free in the normal line) < 1261602848 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know how much stuff supports XDG's where-to-put-dotfiles stuff? < 1261602865 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a horrible LD_PRELOAD hack that rewrites all writes to ~/.foo to it, too, I think. < 1261602872 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a bit too cowboy for my liking. < 1261602886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, what is XDG? < 1261602905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: JFGI < 1261602915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, my control key has become stuck in the VM again. < 1261602932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just resets it < 1261602940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that urxvt has menus? < 1261602954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1261602955 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261602971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And xterm has a ton of menus, but that's widely-known. < 1261602979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But urxvt's include "evaluate Perl expression". < 1261603007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. It seems urxvt's menus do not agree with my WM. < 1261603109 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, stock Debian sid boots quite quickly. < 1261603185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261603224 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More recently, Gregory J. Chaitin of IBM has found arithmetic propositions whose truth can never be established by following any deductive rules. < 1261603253 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261603328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And apparently the urxvt menus don't agree with *anything* X related. < 1261603333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261603335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1261603345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should have done it in an Xnest < 1261603351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly. < 1261603366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, Debian. Why will you not give me lovely upgrades? < 1261603482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries out conkeror < 1261603622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conkeror review: "Meh." < 1261603656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to try trimming down iceweasel < 1261604221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1261604235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the least annoying interface I've found, but the Gecko bit is t3h suck. < 1261604523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because all the other browsers suck more. < 1261604526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately. < 1261604550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: do you know a lightweight program that handles Alt-F2 program<enter> launching? I found one once but have forgotten it < 1261604563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't. < 1261604582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a part of Ratpoison, you see... < 1261604696 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dmenu? < 1261604710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, it was literally: input box, runs it in a shell < 1261604725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dmenu has completion and stuff, which I don't need. < 1261604739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I want something in the middle of the screen; this was. < 1261604750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't anything well-known, I don't think. Which is why this is probably hopeless. < 1261604809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you use ratpoison‽‽‽ < 1261604823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ratpoison? But that's SINFUL!" < 1261604844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, s/SINFUL/unusable/ < 1261604851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not. < 1261604857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I found it so < 1261604868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ratpoison is designed for a certain workload. < 1261604885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That workload consists of Emacs, one or two unrelated terminals, and a browser. < 1261604900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a screen that isn't too big (because otherwise everything will be in the corners.) < 1261604915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given those, since they won't interact much, ratpoison is probably close to the most optimal window manager. < 1261604932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, Emacs' buffer management is strikingly similar to Ratpoison. < 1261605062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I figured out why my X11 cursor is red. < 1261605128 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261605135 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My workload consists of a terminal, a browser, and possibly a virtual machine or two. < 1261605144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that, Ratpoison is just about optimal. < 1261605159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gtk's Mist style is pooping on my grey colour scheme party. < 1261605165 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should tweak it to behave. < 1261605171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would *not* want to use it for heavier workloads. < 1261605189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lwm is pooping on my I-like-clicking-on-window-contents-to-raise party, too) < 1261605301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it actually possible to disable xpdf's ugly menus? < 1261605506 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261605515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope so. < 1261605515 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261605533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, not menus. < 1261605534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toolbar. < 1261605537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better question, though: is it possible to make Motif not ugly? < 1261605548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Want a page that shows you how? < 1261605570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I may start using Motif programs. XD < 1261605573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-1.php < 1261605578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-before.gif < 1261605578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before < 1261605581 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nedit.org/technotes/looks-after.gif < 1261605582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After < 1261605603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is that usually, Motif programs have a bad interface beyond the looks :P < 1261605647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freow. < 1261605655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah... < 1261605658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Freeow, no? < 1261605671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only so much that can be done with 20 year old programs. :P < 1261605718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For xpdf, I'd remove the page navigation buttons (useless, I have a scrollbar for that). < 1261605727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need the print or the help buttons either, but I can live with those. < 1261605735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The zoom and search items are probably good. < 1261605738 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261605760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the icons are fugly. < 1261605771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could probably be fixed just by making them vector icons, though. < 1261605779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no biggie though imo. < 1261605797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm not sure how to adapt that nedit page to non-edit programs; it uses "nedit" as the resource. What's it inherited from? Motif? < 1261605822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what's the difference between foo*bar and foo.bar? I forget. < 1261605978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://toastytech.com/guis/win7101apps.png < 1261605978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 7: the best platform to run your Windows 1.01 programs. < 1261606028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr; I may just patch lwm to let me raise a window by clicking inside it. < 1261606034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's non-reparenting; that's likely to be the problem. < 1261606161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm totally tempted to switch to Debian sid. < 1261606238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/win7101apps.png <-- that old calculator renders incorrectly it seems < 1261606242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MS broke something ARGH! < 1261606256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was probably like that in Windows 1; not exactly the most polished OS. < 1261606260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261606275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the text going out of the button < 1261606275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a look at the menus in the Windows 1 programs. < 1261606279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's even retaining the non-antialiasedness. < 1261606285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, that's what I meant. < 1261606301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty close to the Windows 1 rendering, yes... < 1261606307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gallery.techarena.in/data/516/Windows_1_01_Calculator.png < 1261606315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just an aspect ratio vs font issue. < 1261606335 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously the old Windows 1 font doesn't exist any more, and the old Windows 1 resolutions weren't the same aspect ratio. < 1261606342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it substitutes the font, which overflows. < 1261606350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it looks stretched in the Windows 1 rendering because of the res. < 1261606513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: any luck with those motif adjustments? < 1261606534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Not been futzing with them. < 1261606549 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. :P < 1261606551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too busy trying not to scream at VMware Server. < 1261606588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, wait, that looks like non-square pixels somewhere? < 1261606593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to believe that the proper response to asking it to launch a VM is: chown -R root:root virtual_machine;chmod 660 virtual_machine < 1261606625 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. < 1261606642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, huh? What soft of monitor was that? < 1261606648 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. A CRT. < 1261606653 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :320x200, probably. < 1261606662 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear software: < 1261606668 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP FUCKING CREATING ~/DESKTOP!!!! < 1261606675 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't HAVE a bloody desktop! < 1261606760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you love how programs make stupid assumptions? < 1261606776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, report a bug! < 1261606790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "Yes, I would *love* to have a ~/Desktop", or "Yes, I would *love* to have files in ~ be owned by root". < 1261606804 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm pretty sure ~/Desktop is a default for some magic XDE "DESKTOPLOCATION" variable that I refuse to set. < 1261606817 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's STANDARD. It's not like ~ is really *yours* or anything." < 1261606820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, why not set it? < 1261606821 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fuck you, user. Fuck you." < 1261606836 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because I have no bloody desktop, and I don't bow to the authority of XDG to tell me that I do. < 1261606863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, also that is trying to be noob-friendly. computer illiterates expecting files to download to desktop and such < 1261606877 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, fine. < 1261606878 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: < 1261606888 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (File.exists("~/Desktop")) { < 1261606897 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : defaults.download_location = "~/Desktop"; < 1261606900 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} else { < 1261606905 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : defaults.download_location = "~/"; < 1261606907 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1261606912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, ubuntu renames it to Skrivbord on Swedish systems < 1261606916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the directory that is < 1261606922 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? If the variable is set, use it. < 1261606941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, your solution fails at i18n just. You need to use said variable in place of "~/Desktop" < 1261606947 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you do _not_ create non-dot directories in ~ that aren't vital to your program's function and desired by the user. < 1261606952 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IT'S PSEUDOCODE, FFS! < 1261606955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, that I agree with < 1261606958 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't HAVE to work. < 1261607451 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261607496 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261607513 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know how to configure Xpdf's defaults? Doesn't seem to be anything on the website about it. I'll check the man page. < 1261607664 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the reason my cursor is red is because lwm sets it to be when you're over window decorations or the root window -- presumably so that you know when you're in lwm land and (assuming you're not over a window decoration) can spawn programs with buttons 1 and 2. < 1261608018 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261608273 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? < 1261608278 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You know things about Debian, right? < 1261608431 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION turned a popular Metaplace world into an Orgy world < 1261608435 0 :Halph!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261608481 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261608490 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1261608645 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oi, you use debian don't you < 1261608713 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Postoffice accepts (and ignores) many of the same command line options that are passed to sendmail" < 1261608835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a popular thing to do; sSMTP accepts and ignores a whole lot of Sendmail options too. < 1261608846 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I just found the wording funny. < 1261608859 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261608861 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accepting an option sort of tends to imply more than ignoring it to me. < 1261608868 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hey, you use Debian! I know this. < 1261608887 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also sounds (to me, anyway) a bit like it implies sendmail ignores those options too. < 1261608895 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I installed xpdf which brought in some URW font thingies for X11 for its rendering pleasure; but this has caused defoma (you know, the Debian font manager doohickey) to decide that sans and related aliases should point to them. < 1261608900 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thusly my fonts are ugly and I am sad. < 1261608907 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why has it done such a horrible thing to my life? < 1261608928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible that it hates you and hopes you die, but that's only a possibility. < 1261608953 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a button and/or buttons I can press that will make it stop hating me hoping I will die? < 1261609018 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hating me and < 1261609023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know; my approach to font-configuration is something you could classify as "agressively ignorant". < 1261609053 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, everything *was* just working; I can't fathom why Debian thinks URW ported-to-X11 fonts are a better choice for sans and friends than the DejaVu fonts. < 1261609062 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll just uninstall xpdf and use some other reader, as a dumb fix. < 1261609106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why in the world would one want a non-xft font for Sans? < 1261609107 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This all-gray-and-black colour scheme I've got going on reminds me of greyscale NeXTStep machines. < 1261609112 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, it's Xft, I believe. < 1261609115 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, it antialiases. < 1261609120 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, they're conversions. < 1261609126 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that Xpdf can use fonts that look like the rest of the system. < 1261609129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so not as awful as is possible. < 1261609140 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A noble goal, sure, but as a candidate for default fonthood? < 1261609167 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it tht gsfonts-x11 thing? < 1261609183 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verily. < 1261609202 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a "recommends"-class dependency, so you might be able to fix it by uninstalling that, if you can live without it. < 1261609216 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but apparently it improves Xpdf's font display immensely. < 1261609221 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'll just use another reader. No biggie. < 1261609285 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be nice if terminals had a quick-use command "<cmd> prog arg ..." that opened a new terminal running that. < 1261609293 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like tc, for terminal command. < 1261609302 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ xrdb - # oops, I forgot the option ^C < 1261609304 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ tc man xrdrb < 1261609306 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*xrdb < 1261609320 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It'd return immediately after spawning the terminal.) < 1261609456 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray; things are good once more. Now I need a pdf reader. < 1261609522 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pdftohtml.sourceforge.net/ The example output of this thing is impressive; maybe I should use it as a PDF reader. < 1261609526 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No search though. < 1261609566 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like xkcd so it must be bad < 1261609571 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, uh... this is all just guesswork, but at least I have a /etc/fonts/conf.d/60-latin.conf (put there by the fontconfig-config package) that specifies a rather random-looking "prefer" list for serif/sans/monospace. Of course it's very much possible something overridizes it somewhere. < 1261609585 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Xresources is an okay system. :P < 1261609591 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's generated by defoma, I think. < 1261609599 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, at least, /etc/fonts/conf.d/??-defoma.conf is. < 1261609611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I do have that autogenerated 30-defoma.conf too. < 1261609619 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd *suspect*, though I'm not sure, that it generates the files in that directory from things elsewhere. < 1261609625 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, that'd just be weird. < 1261609647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: tc(){nohup urxvt -e "$@" &} < 1261609661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :60-latin.conf is one of the "static" files in the fontconfig-config package, as far as I can figure out. < 1261609665 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nohup is crap because it makes nohup.out and stuff. < 1261609670 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disown ftw < 1261609680 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tc() { urxvt -e "$@" & disown } < 1261609699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just >/dev/null. :P < 1261609712 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but disown is *meant* for that. < 1261609730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261609734 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, unfortunately tc is forced to be suboptimal: "tc ls" should stay open even after ls returns, but "tc man ls" shouldn't. < 1261609746 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two separate commands would just be unneccessary mental overhead, though. < 1261609752 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, in 30-defoma.conf I end up with LMSans10-Regular and LMRoman10-Regular fonts (the Latin Modern set, which is a Computer Modern extension) as sans and serif, respectively. I'm not so sure that's very sensible; but on the other hand I don't think my Sans looks like that either. < 1261609769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty much a bug in Unix semantics. < 1261609782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably quite reasonable to do in Plan 9. < 1261609787 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Correction -- pretty much a bug in ncurses semantics. < 1261609796 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Plan 9, there's nothing like "man". < 1261609804 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd just stay open after any command. < 1261609819 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could pass it to the pager, but then it'd just stay after you go past the last line. < 1261609828 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The pager doesn't use ncurses-style stuff in Plan 9.) < 1261609831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Unix semantic in question is "always close after the program exits". < 1261609838 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261609846 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not closing after it exits would break modern man(1)s. < 1261609850 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they're crap. :P < 1261609894 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's annoying that even GNU sleep doesn't have a "forever" option. < 1261609947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised GNU sleep isn't at least as bloated as GNU hello. < 1261609958 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"while true; sleep 1000d; done" does it. < 1261609962 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, *do sleep < 1261610022 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh < 1261610022 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : urxvt -e "sh -c '$@; while true; do sleep 1000d; done'" & < 1261610026 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spot the bug < 1261610038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1261610049 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "Can you tell what it is yet?" < 1261610084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$@ = "" < 1261610101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that. < 1261610109 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$@ =~ /'/ < 1261610148 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, maybe. < 1261610152 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever, I'll just not use this for things like ls. < 1261610175 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can easily run "ls" in your current terminal without disrupting things. < 1261610177 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, if I do "tc irssi" it gets the title irssi. < 1261610178 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shiny. < 1261610188 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll make tc a shell script, not a function. < 1261610452 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are correct and I apologise. Your last project was actually both commercially viable and original. Unfortunately the part that was commercially viable was not original, and the part that was original was not commercially viable." < 1261610796 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need to improve my accuracy with a mouse. < 1261610802 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always overshoot. < 1261610866 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, if any Firefox users want typing a query in the address bar to search Google instead of I'm Feeling Lucky, and thus remove the need for the search box, set keyword.URL to: < 1261610873 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&q= < 1261611240 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, fuck; and the system gets told about the DPI again and thusly fucks up. < 1261611400 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: I use Ubuntu < 1261611422 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Die, foul demon of non-rolling release and... and GNOME and... SHUTTLEWORTH < 1261611441 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to reboot, anyway. < 1261611446 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To fix the fucking DPI fucking fuckshit fucking fucker. < 1261611453 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261611562 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Guess what fun I discovered today < 1261611580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CSS Level 3 has a 3D transforms module - joy! < 1261611682 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261611687 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question. < 1261611691 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't terminals execute ~/.profile by default? < 1261611701 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, for a desktop machine, that means that ~/.profile is basically "console rc". < 1261611708 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is dumbfuck retarded. < 1261611724 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what am I meant to do? Put things in bashrc? So only bash reads them? < 1261611800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is dash my sh? < 1261611815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're supposed to put ". .profile" in your .bash_profile < 1261611883 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dash is your sh because dash is leaner and stuff and /bin/sh only has to be a POSIX sh, not bash < 1261611895 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I have no .bash_profile. < 1261611899 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then make one < 1261611907 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And loading .bash_profile but not .profile? /etc/profile too? THE SYSTEM IS FUCKED UP < 1261611914 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Or, I could just put . .profile in my bashrc. < 1261611914 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just bash < 1261611916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complain to it < 1261611930 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: True, you could! But that would be different behavior!!1!!11 < 1261611941 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But more pertinently: why don't terminals default to login shells? < 1261611959 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, why doesn't some distro completely abolish all the rc madness and just make there be one file? < 1261611967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because "zomg it wasn't spawned by login(1)". < 1261611972 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You could make all of them be loaded in all cases, so people don't have to know which one to create.) < 1261611979 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they won't all parse on every shell < 1261611984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and knowing which one to create is easy < 1261611993 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: dude, you can test for shell < 1261611999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: profile should parse on all Bourne shells. < 1261612001 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know -- $SHELL < 1261612007 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if you use csh? < 1261612017 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh, csh doesn't load .profile afaik < 1261612018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :csh never loads profile. < 1261612030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ehird_ wants one for every shell ever < 1261612031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it loads profile.csh < 1261612034 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't < 1261612036 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said that < 1261612095 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it simply makes no sense: < 1261612101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# set PATH so it includes user's private bin if it exists < 1261612101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if [ -d "$HOME/bin" ] ; then < 1261612101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PATH="$HOME/bin:$PATH" < 1261612101 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi < 1261612107 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Debian, this snippet is found in .profile. < 1261612112 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now: Why would you possibly want that? < 1261612118 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO would expect consoles to be able to access ~/bin stuff but not terminals? < 1261612126 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would this be desired default behaviour? < 1261612143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, finding the correct shell is easy: man $(egrep $(whoami) /etc/passwd | egrep -o "[^/:]+$") < 1261612146 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's idiotic to have such automagic behaviour if it NEVER RUNS for the usage you'd most want it in. < 1261612167 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1261612339 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261612376 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261612412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261613424 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happy Christmas Eve. < 1261613463 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christmas doesn't exist, that's ridiculous < 1261613469 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1261613493 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gGopKNPqVk < 1261613508 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about the internet, is that it's christmas all the time < 1261613521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Happy Christmas Eve Eve. < 1261613539 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No Flash, and not even any sound on this system. :P < 1261613546 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Was originally evaluating sid for server use.) < 1261613567 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed up youtube so that it doesn't use flash < 1261613573 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ClickToFlash does that. < 1261613581 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I haven't set anything up in this VM. < 1261613617 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261613685 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know how to override colours in .gtkrc-2.0? < 1261613740 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261614437 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261615096 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know if it would be feasible to create an LD_PRELOA < 1261615134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LD_PRELOAD library? Feasible, but painful as all hell. < 1261615135 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- stupid VM -- < 1261615150 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D doohickey, that wraps the X11 bitmap font libraries, and - < 1261615167 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try to load a font starting with xft: - creates a bitmap font backed by xft < 1261615175 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getglyph() or whatever would render "the char" with xft < 1261615183 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blit("abc") would do the obvious < 1261615183 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261615193 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you could even put it in the normal font syntax < 1261615201 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-xft-Sans-10-*-*-(...) < 1261615226 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, oldschool and minimalist tools can simply either be linked with the relevant library or LD_PRELOADed with it, and voila < 1261615230 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xft fonts < 1261615238 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: LD_PRELOAD libraries are pretty easy actually < 1261615255 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just like a regular library, except if you want to call the function you're replacing (i.e. wrap it), you just have to dlopen/dlsym to get the original function < 1261615258 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and call that < 1261615305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways: Uh, I at least *think* the X11 bitmap font stuff is serverside. < 1261615320 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay. Same difference and whatnot. < 1261615324 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get the basic idea. < 1261615383 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, I could make my window manager (lwm) use Xft fonts for the title bars and the hidden window list. < 1261615395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LD_PRELOAD won't help. Rebuilding the server, though... < 1261615400 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And who doesn't want xedit with pretty fonts?!?!?! < 1261615404 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: LD_PRELOAD on the server, duh. < 1261615413 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LD_PRELOAD: "Because I'm too fucking lazy to fight against my distro."(TM)) < 1261615418 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fight my distro < 1261615426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... LD_PRELOAD can only replace dynamically linked symbols. < 1261615439 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Some of the server is in a library, yah? < 1261615444 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably at least the font stuff it calls is. < 1261615490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. So it is. /usr/lib/libXfont.so.1 < 1261615499 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261615503 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261615528 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with coercing Xorg out of its traditional /usr/X11R6 home is that the rest of the system gets to deal with its rampant pollution of every filesystem resource it can access. :P < 1261615536 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, seriously. Waay too many files. < 1261615563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, X is a freaking behemoth. < 1261615620 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python subreddit header: "(birthday cake icon) Python (10K!)". < 1261615628 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those seven versions sure flew by quickly. < 1261615641 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rimshot* < 1261615695 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filesystem idea: rimshotfs. It serves a single file; accessing it in any way causes a rimshot sound to be played. The contents of the file is always "Ba-dum, TISH!". < 1261615926 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian's xclock is fun. < 1261615937 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does Xft, antialiasing, colours (with blending between multiple colours for the hands crossing), etc. < 1261615963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the one that's been used as a testbed for everything. :) < 1261615995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also an option for it to have a circular window with an antialiased border, and the window itself being translucent, IIRC. < 1261616004 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -chime This option indicates that the clock should chime once on the < 1261616005 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : half hour and twice on the hour. < 1261616039 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitter.com/Big_ben_clock < 1261616076 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : face (class FaceName) < 1261616076 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Specify the pattern for the font to be used for the digital < 1261616076 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : clock when Xrender is used. Patterns are specified using the < 1261616076 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fontconfig face format described in the Font Names section of < 1261616076 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fonts.conf(5). < 1261616113 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261616143 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUGS < 1261616143 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Xclock believes the system clock. < 1261616148 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261616154 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you know, this thing is a few steps away from reading mail. < 1261616162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1261616175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been used for testing every single X11 feature added in the past 4 or 5 years. < 1261616179 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet it still lacks an option for "don't draw a window border in -digital mode." < 1261616188 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. I want a clock in the corner of my screen, dammit!) < 1261616189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what thing < 1261616193 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: xclock! < 1261616203 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is SO MODERN. < 1261616205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Xest of clocks! < 1261616208 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just read its man page. < 1261616229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if anyone's ever tried rewriting Xt to use nicer-looking widgets < 1261616241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thereby making all the old X11 programs look nicer. < 1261616257 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're too pixelly. it'd fuck things up < 1261616265 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, even xedit(1) has gradients nowadays < 1261616272 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... can you make it display the redundant clock? < 1261616273 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which leaves... xman? and xman is a crock of shit < 1261616277 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ? < 1261616283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xman doesn't use Xt. < 1261616289 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1261616310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xt offers the Motif-y widgets, IIRC. < 1261616315 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1261616321 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=1&subcat=&pid=18&navpoint=16 < 1261616325 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, most of the programs it'd help are shit anyway < 1261616327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Motif wraps it. < 1261616340 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean... Motif isn't the culprit? < 1261616351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, X is. < 1261616372 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: would be 10x better if the surrounding depictions were reflections of the actual clock < 1261616380 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they had surrounding ones too < 1261616382 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., a fractal clock < 1261616385 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, rofl http://pleaseenjoy.com/project.php?cat=1&subcat=&pid=67&navpoint=19 < 1261616475 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, ehird_, if you can remember our discussion way back when about intellectual property law, I've realized there is an addendum I want to add. There is no justification whatsoever that two independent inventors of the same thing do not share ownership of the invention. < 1261616508 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely that is an argument *against* patents? < 1261616519 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patents discourage original thought if it leads to the same conclusion. < 1261616542 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is an argument against the current system. < 1261616542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patents also discourage building on previous thought. < 1261616552 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanted to clarify my stance < 1261616568 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole definition of parents is that if you invent something first, other people have to pay you to use that invention. < 1261616573 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*patents < 1261616623 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You say you support patents, but from what I can tell you support a subset of things you believe they result in, and define your position as "reform it so that only those things happen". But I don't think that's possible; you oppose the very underpinning of patents. < 1261616659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, exactly, *does* he want? < 1261616663 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said I supported the current system as being a stellar exampl of intellectual property law < 1261616677 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I tried evaluating that, but the thunk diverged. < 1261616682 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I know that. < 1261616697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You seem opposed to the very notion. < 1261616701 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But your "reformed patents" are a contradiction in terms: you want patents without the very underpinning of patents, so that you can get only the results you see as positive. < 1261616702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't realise it. < 1261616706 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You simply can't have that. < 1261616725 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: As far as patents go, pretty much < 1261616728 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like saying "let's reform petrol engines so they don't produce CO2." < 1261616734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(please, explain how my uninformed opinion about your opinion is wrong. I'd like to actually discuss something.) < 1261616736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want decent IP, not patents < 1261616740 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great! Let's just remove the little block labelled "CO2 generator". < 1261616744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Oh, that's certainly possible. < 1261616756 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not by that method. < 1261616760 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it'd have side-effects in the design. < 1261616764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call it "reformation via axe." < 1261616773 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copyright, for example, allows for independent creation < 1261616790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It doesn't allow for standing on the shoulders of giants, however. < 1261616795 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to add that all arguments about IP are purely academic: it is dead, whatever the law says. Piracy is here, it isn't going away, and it's reached critical mass. < 1261616806 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can argue about whether it *should* be like that, but like it or not, IP is dead. < 1261616813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP is not dead < 1261616813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor does it account for the fact that data is infinitely copiable. < 1261616829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not account for the fact that data is infinitely copiable at all < 1261616835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excuse me, I just violated copyright law 1,000 times. < 1261616835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on. < 1261616843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It cannot. < 1261616849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but piracy doesn't even apply to two of the major three forms of intellectual properly < 1261616856 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:06 < pikhq> Nor does it account for the fact that data is infinitely < 1261616856 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : copiable. < 1261616856 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:06 < coppro> It does not account for the fact that data is infinitely < 1261616856 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : copiable at all < 1261616864 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you just infringed on pikhq's copyright, you bastard < 1261616868 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his intellectual rights are infringed. < 1261616890 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ignores the last 6 lines < 1261616890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To have an "intellectual property" law is to suggest that the following is not possible: for i in {1..1000000000000};do cp foo foo.$i;done < 1261616902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What about patents and trademarks? < 1261616917 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would not class trademarks as strictly ip < 1261616920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of those actually rely on the assumption that copying is simple < 1261616922 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261616927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patents, too, are flawed, but for an entirely different reason. < 1261616928 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem more about usage < 1261616941 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't disagree with that < 1261616964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That reason is this: limiting the use of other inventions causes more harm than the lack of incentive to publish does. < 1261616979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And trademarks? Honestly, trademark law is actually just fine. < 1261616999 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: btw i debated these issues at great length and scope with coppro using basically identical arguments for hours; good luck :P < 1261617023 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I agree in practice but I disagree in principle < 1261617035 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you mixed those two up < 1261617046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... I am sure you mixed those two up. < 1261617073 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limiting the use of other inventions causes more harm than the lack of incentive to publish does <-- as far as the existing law goes, I agree < 1261617095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That's not something about the specific details of the law. < 1261617107 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: btw you're unlikely to get an answer out of coppro about what his proposed fix to the law is... < 1261617108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a disagreement of the ENTIRE PREMISE of patent law. < 1261617110 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried < 1261617116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Magic? < 1261617126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By pretending it's 1970, it works!" < 1261617158 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: There's the thing; if you limit the term of patents to something more reasonable, then the harm/good ratio balances out < 1261617169 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting factoid: before 1923, music didn't exist < 1261617170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... < 1261617176 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank god for copyright's stimulation of creativity < 1261617185 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: No kidding! < 1261617194 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, yes kidding. < 1261617197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, what do you think is a more reasonable term? < 1261617227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you say anything longer than a few months, I'm going to think you're not even on the same planet. :P) < 1261617272 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I can't answer that question with certainty, but I would say that two years would be the upper bound; something just under a year is most likely optimal < 1261617300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Still causes more harm. < 1261617319 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should pirate something while you're having this discussion, just to add some practical scientific data to who's winning < 1261617342 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What's the basis for saying that? < 1261617344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A patent, you see, is an incomprehensible mass of words, rather than documentation to build on. < 1261617370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though current law goes out of its way to make sure this is so, this is inherent in the idea of patents. < 1261617385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You see, there is an incentive to make the patent not easily understood. < 1261617397 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with patents is that it assumes thinking of a way to do something is creating that method in concept-space < 1261617401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a flaw with the patent office, not with thelaw < 1261617402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It prevents competition for a bit longer. < 1261617405 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't; we merely find it with our thinking < 1261617413 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*merely find < 1261617416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's a flaw with the very concept. < 1261617420 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay, that's just one, massively theoretical objection < 1261617422 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A patent application "set out clearly the various steps in a process, or the method of constructing, making, compounding or using a machine, manufacture or composition of matter, in such full, clear, concise and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the art or science to which it pertains, or with which it is most closely connected, to make, construct, compound or use it;" < 1261617422 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1261617425 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+must < 1261617444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The very *concept* has an incentive to be as non-understandable as possible. < 1261617445 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: And the constitution of the United States of America says that George Bush couldn't have done so many things he did, too. < 1261617453 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... that... stopped him. < 1261617470 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay for corporatism. < 1261617473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes, that is the exact phrasing of the law and what the patent office strives to do. < 1261617495 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing I like about the patent office is that they need experts in every single subject in the entire universe to work fairly < 1261617500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is impossible to ensure this without hiring, oh, every single person skilled in every art and every science. :P < 1261617502 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might as well just have called it "The Institution" < 1261617517 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps insert "Mental" somewhere in that. < 1261617536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is we're mixing practice and theory < 1261617558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't disagree that, as it exists, patent law is near-fundamentally flawed < 1261617576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Law is not a matter of theory vs. practice. < 1261617580 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you say "the patent system is near-fundamentally flawed" and still hold that "patents are a good idea" < 1261617584 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what "fundamentally" means < 1261617588 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means not an implementation detail < 1261617595 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I said "near-" < 1261617603 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fundamental idea of patents is good < 1261617609 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just about everything else about them is not < 1261617614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is good about it? < 1261617627 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It encourages information sharing < 1261617631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of nothing good about it in the modern day and age. < 1261617633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't. < 1261617644 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I want ponies, and kittens. But they shouldn't poop because poop is gross. We should legislate that ponies and kittens cannot poop." < 1261617645 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fundamental idea does < 1261617654 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hooray for pat^H^Honies and kittens!" < 1261617658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't. < 1261617664 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fundamental idea *wants to*. < 1261617695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What it does is encourages the publication of sufficient details to make a lawer satisified that you got it first. < 1261617706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BEYOND. < 1261617719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's what the implementation does < 1261617720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/lawer/lawyer/ < 1261617729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's fundamental. < 1261617737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1261617751 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is publishing vague specifications fundamental to the functioning of patent law? < 1261617769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the entire idea is to make you publish sufficient details to make a lawyer satisified that you got it first. < 1261617802 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From a commercial perspective, sure < 1261617814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261617835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the standard of clarity is a detail of the implementation of patent law < 1261617836 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me or is coppro arguing for the practical implementation of patents based on abstract arguments for it < 1261617849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I'm arguing that the fundamental idea is sound < 1261617863 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the sense that communism is sound) < 1261617868 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more or less) < 1261617872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clarity is impossible to enforce without hiring every specialist ever. < 1261617873 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261617887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just one specialist in every field < 1261617903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in every subfield. And in every subsubfield. And so on. < 1261617949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be done, all the same. < 1261617960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And whatever standard of clarity is defined, you must realise: that is the *maximum* that people will do. < 1261617979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the minimum, the maximum. < 1261617983 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely < 1261617991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and also, there should be penalties for frivolous patents < 1261618000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are. < 1261618011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The law is fucking impossible to enforce. < 1261618037 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this hypothetical perfect patent system, BTW, everyone would be hired under the patent office already. < 1261618041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Meaning not doing anything else. < 1261618057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Meaning that the world economy collapses, and we're back to throwing shit at each other. < 1261618063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While shrieking. < 1261618094 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find anything that references penalties for frivolous patents < 1261618116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you suck at precedent. < 1261618138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently < 1261618222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in conclusion: patents cannot be enforced, they award entirely the wrong thing, and they punish those who would stand on the shoulders of giants. Ergo, patents are a detriment to human society. < 1261618226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED. < 1261618247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All you've managed to do is refute every point except the one I've made < 1261618260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... What points have you made? < 1261618271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've only said "I WANT PONIES WITHOUT THE POO!" < 1261618282 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I've said that they would be good without the poo < 1261618285 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I PATENTED ANIMAL-POO BASED METAPHORS < 1261618292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh. < 1261618305 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But you think removing the poo is achievable. < 1261618308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, you're being a fucking retard. < 1261618314 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You refuse, however, to provide any method for achieving this. < 1261618341 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1261618351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want water that's not wet, animals that don't shit, and bits that aren't copiable. < 1261618369 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I want them? Yes. Do I think that I'm ever going to get them? No. < 1261618371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, but all that's wrong with patents is inherent in patents. < 1261618395 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so... I wasted all my debating with you, offering practical reasons why things like patents cannot work... < 1261618407 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...when your only point is "It sure would be nice if patents weren't unfixable." < 1261618413 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go cry now. < 1261618416 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261618614 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I have my turn now? < 1261618616 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1261618625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261618704 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Synchronised facepalm? < 1261618766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Yes. < 1261618769 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1261618771 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 < 1261618772 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1261618774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1261618775 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1261618777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1261618780 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1261618790 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION footshoulders < 1261618803 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION poops < 1261618807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION beats coppro with a luser attitude retraining tool < 1261618822 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a luser(1) that reduces the user's quota to 1 KiB. < 1261618826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261618839 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... adjusts... their home directory to account for this. < 1261618847 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biggest files preferred for removal, of course. < 1261618858 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And real files over dotfiles. < 1261618858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, smallest first < 1261618869 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Nah; that'll just remove insignificant things. < 1261618870 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1261618871 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean. < 1261618873 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's less efficient. < 1261618882 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it would remove their mail; they've probably already read it, anyway. < 1261618895 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be fun to design a general purpose language with more features than Perl 6. < 1261618900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: No, it will remove all the insignificant things first. Then it would run out of things less than 1 KiB, and have to delete it all < 1261618918 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call you stupid at this point, but that's not my style < 1261618931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: First, take Perl 6. Then, add TECO. < 1261618938 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the 90s, who has files bigger than 1 KiB anyway < 1261618948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I'm not sure where to go from there. < 1261618950 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I don't call people stupid for missing my jokes; I say "whoosh". < 1261618955 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: CPAN? < 1261618966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No, no, no. < 1261618976 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call people stupid when they repeatedly misinterpret or misunderstand concepts, make assumptions, and give false conclusions illogically based on these, despite me explaining things first. < 1261618976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "Perl 6", I meant "Perl 6 and all of CPAN". < 1261618985 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People have an immense power to go through these steps veeeeery quickly. < 1261618998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably add on Perl 5. < 1261619004 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, Perl 6 doesn't really have much CPAN right now. < 1261619015 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, it would be fun to design a language which does everything concisely and with little overhead... purely because it has lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of stuff. < 1261619042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every single Unicode character is a unique command? < 1261619053 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :P < 1261619077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Syntactical construct? < 1261619082 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Haskell let you define â…, I wonder? < 1261619087 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not neccessarily characters. < 1261619104 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6 is filled with so much DWIM, it's simultaneously awesome and hideous < 1261619117 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was at least one thing that bugged me last time I looked at the spec... something to do with the Whatever < 1261619126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It also has a nice Haskell FFI. :P < 1261619218 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exclude /^#/ # A MoreThanPerl6 script to strip comments from an e.g. crontab file. < 1261619224 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what that looks like in Perl 5/6. < 1261619259 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, even if it is yet another implicit concept, having Perl's -p be implied by not giving an argument to a filtery thingy is... disturbing. < 1261619291 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6 no longer implies $_ everywhere < 1261619298 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1261619307 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead, using the . operator without on object implies using it on $_ < 1261619317 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i know that much < 1261619366 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\$(\w+)/ { ENV[$1] } g; < 1261619375 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wait. < 1261619381 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ending / means that's ambiguous. < 1261619407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Perl 6 regexes are whitespace-insensitive. THIS IS MADNESS < 1261619411 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although maybe it should be s/foo/"bar"g; well, that's certainly more consistent with what I said, but still. < 1261619419 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1261619431 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, what if the first argument could be a block too? < 1261619447 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6's Unicode support is one of my favorite things in the history of ever < 1261619448 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s{rand}{"poop"}g < 1261619464 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since s expects a boolean result from its first block, rand returns either true or false.) < 1261619467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Bah. I prefer Plan 9 C's support. < 1261619476 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that could just be s{rand}"poop"g < 1261619478 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: link? < 1261619479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just works. < 1261619481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For everything. < 1261619491 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same with Perl 6, except more < 1261619494 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it *is* the original implementation of UTF-8. < 1261619498 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you can't say that < 1261619502 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just asked for a link < 1261619511 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you clearly have no idea what Plan 9 C's unicode is like < 1261619515 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't say perl6's is better < 1261619517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I can find the UTF-8 docs. < 1261619524 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll find them < 1261619528 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know where the plan 9 man pages are < 1261619531 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18:50:55] <pikhq> It just works. [18:50:58] <pikhq> For everything. <-- Perl is even better < 1261619531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/programming/c_programming_in_plan_9 This has some of it. < 1261619544 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: he's talking about unicode support < 1261619553 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I know < 1261619561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode just works for everything on Plan 9. < 1261619562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Period. < 1261619570 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261619594 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/rune < 1261619622 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/2/bio for the io functions < 1261619764 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9's solution to the problem of unicode handling is to make there not be any problem < 1261619781 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1261619791 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it was the first utf-8 implementation it was all pretty new ground as far as encodings go... so since they didn't *know* there had to be a problem, they didn't code any problems in :P < 1261619829 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't handle non-BMP stuff, but there wasn't any non-BMP stuff when they implemented that (two or three days from scribbling out the UTF-8 standard to having Plan 9 fully running it, IIRC) < 1261619833 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(circa 1992) < 1261619840 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, well, plan 9 isn't exactly under active development :P < 1261619896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the nicest C handling of UTF-8 I know of. < 1261619909 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, seriously, I am <-> this close to patching lwm to allow me to raise windows by clicking inside them < 1261619911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let's make it not hard." "Done." < 1261619930 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i'd be more likely to simply write my own, inspired window manager < 1261619983 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing me, probably go ahead and give it a fun filesystem-based interface < 1261620013 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mv $qwm/tabsets/{4,2}/0 < 1261620021 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila, the first window in tabset 4 is moved to tabset 2 < 1261620035 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by default there'd be a 1:1 mapping of tabsets to windows; if you have two windows, both will be in that tabset) < 1261620057 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the windows in a tabset would be symlinks to $qwm/windows/N < 1261620065 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261620071 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if X allows you to draw the same window twice < 1261620083 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. could symlinking a window into more than one tabset possibly work < 1261620234 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might steal lwm's window placement algorithm for it < 1261620237 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A compositing WM could manage it. < 1261620250 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to do cascading, but if there's nothing to casccade to, spreads out to maximise space < 1261620253 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may be wrong < 1261620257 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it feels like that < 1261620261 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: bah, compositing WMs < 1261620265 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even want to write a reparenting WM < 1261620348 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i mean, lwm can hide windows but they're still there and can be retrieved later, i.e. resizing < 1261620356 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems like window = abstract concept is the way to go < 1261620362 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it can be shown 0 or 1 times, why not 2+? < 1261620374 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason to restrict them to being "physically" put in ses of tabs < 1261620553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261620583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks forward to trying out the new tabbing KDE WM < 1261620665 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know of any good ncurses IM clients? < 1261620672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi < 1261620677 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sid's centerim is too old to connect to msn < 1261620684 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(version is from february!) < 1261620694 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's an irc client; and yes, i know of bitlbee < 1261620704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use bitlbee. < 1261620715 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said i know of bitlbee < 1261620790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High-latency link. < 1261620802 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261620946 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write my WM in Haskell, but xmonad has cornered that market. :P < 1261620960 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This raising issue is *really* pissing me off.) < 1261621124 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it is rather sad that Debian sid in a VM with 360 megs of RAM and a Gecko-based XUL browser (as opposed to WebKit + native) is performing better than the OS X host. < 1261621131 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the graphics are a bit laggy and stuff, but still. < 1261621215 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my VM at work does that < 1261621229 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTFS :( < 1261621234 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X really does have too many layers. :P < 1261621287 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261621293 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian has an up-to-date Haskell Platform. < 1261621311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes it does. < 1261621317 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up to the 0.0.x version. < 1261621344 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says that the individual packages mightt not be the version specified in the Haskell Platform, but eh. It's sid; probably not too far behind. < 1261621355 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you installing gcc 4.1, Debian? < 1261621382 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's the newest version they had available at the time? < 1261621396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Sid. < 1261621406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261621411 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably some Haskell package breaks with later versions. < 1261621417 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like happy or alex < 1261621420 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still. < 1261621597 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261621628 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One disadvantage with the location-bar-for-google-search method: for some reason, everything after and including the first / is stripped. < 1261621934 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting fact: build-essential isn't intended for setting up a development environment. < 1261621949 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's meant to be "everything you need to build Debian packages"; in fact, the description even says you only need it if you want to build them. < 1261621967 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is interesting < 1261621976 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sense sarcasm < 1261621987 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't think so, you can fuck off < 1261621995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's gcc, libc headers, and the .deb build tools... < 1261621997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and binutils. < 1261622004 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: wat < 1261622010 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff < 1261622042 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSRLETlKDg < 1261622065 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261622082 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i continue to lack < 1261622083 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1261622086 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :access to youtube < 1261622086 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1261622094 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: i'm well aware of that quote < 1261622102 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1261622104 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't wat < 1261622105 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffff < 1261622106 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just, you know, a non-sequitur in context < 1261622111 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ggggg. < 1261622115 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hhhhhhh < 1261622169 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs emacs23 for haskelling < 1261622411 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261622720 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261623731 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261623750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oi, Emacs users! < 1261623903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1261624023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Either: < 1261624048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Know of any color schemes that aren't hideous uncoordinated piles of vomit that would go well with a #BBBBBB background? < 1261624051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261624080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. Know of any "colour" schemes that are all black foreground (well, maybe some shades of grey are acceptable, as long as it goes well on #BBB) and do their highlighting through bolding and the like? < 1261624109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1261624120 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 loves uncoordinated vomit < 1261624248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261624264 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261624269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I was saying before irssi barfed, < 1261624274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: We don't need to know about your fetishes. :P < 1261624325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does irssi have anything to let me click links automagically? This is irritating. < 1261624524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needs terminal support. < 1261624586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urxvt supports a dog and a horse, it can do it. < 1261624590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Worst phrase ever.) < 1261624601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely it can just hook into mouseclick? < 1261624904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. But that's a terminal thing, not a irssi thing. < 1261624926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but irssi is the one to detect the click and go "x-www-browser $url" < 1261625049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah: < 1261625050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :URxvt*urlLauncher: firefox < 1261625050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :URxvt*matcher.button: 1 < 1261625051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :URxvt*perl-ext-common: matcher < 1261625075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't know what * vs . doe < 1261625110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261625205 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261625208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, it works now. < 1261625216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does < 1261625708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wish it changed the cursor on hover, though. < 1261625779 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261626106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261626226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261626265 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261626387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261626421 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.81.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261626996 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261628039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, my scale function makes my checkerboard, when scaled by an even amount, go entirely black :) < 1261628399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you scale it by 0.5, it gets twice as *big* < 1261628492 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261628600 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261628617 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-74-210.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261628660 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261628877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261628912 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi basement bomb dude < 1261629015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261629249 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261629476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261629598 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261629699 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1261629944 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261629978 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261630582 0 :Gregor-L!n=Gregor@c-71-237-176-82.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261634736 0 :augur_!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261634736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261634781 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261634943 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261635065 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261635096 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261636140 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261636243 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261636451 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-28.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261636906 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261636945 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do some web-pages do both open in the current and a new buffer at the same time when you click a link? < 1261637007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's been irritating me too < 1261637016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed they were using javascript < 1261637019 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1261637022 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they are using JavaScript. < 1261637037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ignoring the fact some people use tabbed browsing < 1261637105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's detecting a click, and not what kind of click it is < 1261637137 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261637145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm just guessing < 1261637169 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it irritating me, when I left-click a link it opens in both buffers. And in some pages, middle-clicking a link will open a blank buffer or not do anything. This bothers me too. I also made it all links with target=_NEW open in the same buffer instead of a new one, but some links like this don't even have a TARGET attribute < 1261637196 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, in some other web-pages, I have found that, left-clicking opens in the same buffer and middle-clicking opens in both buffers. This is also no good. < 1261637232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh is this with ordinary left clicking too? i've been noticing it when opening in a tab (with ctrl-click). but i guess it depends on browser. < 1261637235 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-31-232.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261637246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a new tab < 1261637269 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the site, some sites do one things and others do anothers things < 1261637286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it probably depends on both < 1261637295 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes using the C-F or C-add C-F commands will help, but not always < 1261637390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261637400 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I never really understood family relationships until last week, when I saw the equation, and I realized it was actually all very simple. < 1261637498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't know there was an equation, always assumed family was an unsolvable problem </joke> < 1261637543 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261637562 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the equation? < 1261637627 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is simple. With two people, figure out the common ancestor and the number of generations between the person and the common ancestor (for example, if same generation as ancestor (yourself) it is zero, etc). Next: < 1261637650 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figure out the difference of the number of generations. This number is the number of removed. Next: < 1261637672 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figure out which number of generations between that person and the ancestor is smaller, and subtract one. That is the rank. End. < 1261637714 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, in mathematical notation: Rank=min(a,b)-1; Removed=|a-b| < 1261637726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1261637746 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261637802 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I can understand who can be my cousin, first cousin, second, once removed, etc, and how many zeroth cousins (zero removed) I have, too. < 1261637831 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And various other stuff. At first, before, I had heard of "second cousins once removed" before but I really didn't understand what that meant. Now I do understand. < 1261637841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not think the terms zeroth (and minus oneth?) cousins are actually used, you know :) < 1261637865 0 :Gregor-L!n=Gregor@c-71-237-176-82.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261637879 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so either, but at least it is easily defined < 1261637884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they are logical < 1261637898 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, zeroth cousins zero removed would be your brother and sister, for example. < 1261637921 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your -1th cousin would be yourself? < 1261637925 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261637940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or removed, your ancestors/descendants < 1261637946 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261637970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm my -1th, 7th, and 9th cousins. Great. < 1261637990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: um no, only -1th < 1261638004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Um, no. < 1261638009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last common ancestor only < 1261638022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. < 1261638031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have one of those convoluted families < 1261638051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I do. < 1261638070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once again: I'm my own cousin. :P < 1261638081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1261638192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least english _has_ a "removed" concept. as far as i know, norwegian doesn't. < 1261638218 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally when they say "cousin" by itself they generally refer to first cousins, though, not -1th cousins < 1261638270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea what first cousin once removed is in norwegian, if there even is a term < 1261638351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which when i think about it is somewhat awkward given that i have at least five of them < 1261638387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1261638418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, six < 1261638454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seven < 1261638477 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261638518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are just the ones i am reasonably sure about < 1261638592 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261639680 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever used or heard of the BBL/Abundance database system? It is a very old one, that in some ways is more advanced than Java. However, I have a question, how can I make the sounds properly on a modern computer (with FreeDOS installed)? < 1261639744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turn your computer on and start the program. < 1261639748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, make "beep beep" noises. < 1261639756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll probably sound more realistic. < 1261639833 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that isn't what I mean. I mean, when you use commands like POOP-TONE and BOMB-TONE and such, that it sounds proper instead of just one tick regardless of which sound you type < 1261639872 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can tell you, BBL/Abundance is very fast, even on XT computer, running from floppy disks. < 1261639885 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the computer is at the church, I can't turn it on right now < 1261639990 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how do I disable the mouse driver on FreeDOS? < 1261640004 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That computer doesn't even have a mouse < 1261640036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure it is appropriate to make POOP-TONEs at church, mind you < 1261640077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Uh, autoexec.bat or config.sys? < 1261640096 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are just examples, there is also NOTE-TONE and such things as that. These sound effects are used to tell the user that the data is invalid or that it is out of memory for jaunting (running the program backward in time), etc. < 1261640108 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And autoexec.bat and config.sys don't mention the mouse driver at all, but it still starts up < 1261640148 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it isn't in the part of the church where you do the service, instead, the computer is at the building next to it, used for religious education. < 1261640177 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While they already have a computer there, the computer already there is used by a different group that works in the same building. < 1261640189 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do have a printer, but the cable is not long enough to connect the computer < 1261640270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261640271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, BBL/Abundance is Y2K compliant even though it was written 29 years ago! Did you know that? < 1261640321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good for it < 1261640332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1261640333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, they use an int for the year and output it. < 1261640513 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the computer from Free Geek, it had Ubuntu installed but I replaced it with FreeDOS and then installed Abundance. Normally the computer comes with two optical drives, and a mouse, but I required only one optical drive and no mouse < 1261640643 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BBL/Abundance is from Canadian Mind Products. They have a lot of other stuff on their web-site too, which is unrelated, including things about religion, deep thoughts, Christmas carols, and various other stuff, it might be good to read (even if you are not interested in BBL/Abundance) < 1261640796 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay their hands on everything they can get. -- Napoleon Bonaparte < 1261641399 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read LKAJSDFPONAEITOGUMW4OTU89M3MYMIOYM2A9X084YTM87)))K:f_)>+<*ym@gy<*hwg*hgehx)iuLZAA.doc *" < 1261641417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1261641599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261641600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261641641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1261643997 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261645274 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"#dsdev on irc.blitzed.org exists" < 1261645558 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261645560 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261645596 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261645845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merry xmas! < 1261645856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in Sweden we celebrate on the 24th) < 1261646454 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-1-152.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261647441 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261647596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, merry xmas! < 1261647605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1261647621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merry christmas < 1261647734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fetches a chocolate ball < 1261649237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, going to grandmother today < 1261649246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grandparents even < 1261649285 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261649739 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-149-220.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261650020 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261650143 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261651640 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261651644 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261652936 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261652951 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261653844 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261654505 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-13-21-224.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261654834 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-4-218.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261655651 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-86-27-72-164.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261656636 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261656746 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261658063 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261660369 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261666357 0 :anmaster_phone!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261666368 0 :anmaster_phone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi there. wow the lag here < 1261666392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laggity lag lag lag? < 1261666394 0 :anmaster_phone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and yeah not directly on phone, on laptop connected to phone by bluetooth < 1261666403 0 :anmaster_phone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, GSM is *slow* < 1261666429 0 :anmaster_phone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even EDGE here < 1261666436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261666499 0 :anmaster_phone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was hoping to see ehird here. meh. well going to disconnect then. cya < 1261666504 0 :anmaster_phone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261666934 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261667703 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261671572 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-82-12-230-183.brnt.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261672779 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261675585 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261675853 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261675866 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261675891 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261675941 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261675953 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, today is Christmas Eve, December 24, 2009 < 1261676034 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this a understandable and good explanation of TAVSYS format? http://pbox.ca/10zv0 < 1261676189 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261676718 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261679709 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261680496 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261685207 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-31-232.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261685936 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261686248 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261688391 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261688445 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261688962 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261689282 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261690894 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261692714 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261692991 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261693154 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261693196 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261693740 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261693836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1261694592 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-4-218.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261695259 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261696082 0 :soupdragon!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261697103 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261699545 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261699836 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quitter!" < 1261699991 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261703238 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261706744 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261707099 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261708393 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261709591 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261710032 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261713070 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone on at this time? < 1261713087 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering about a programming language based on english < 1261713188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like... ORK? < 1261713266 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaugely < 1261713288 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ORK is so awesome < 1261713552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ello. < 1261716199 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261716460 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-80-207.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261717089 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261717860 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261718087 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1261721162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261721177 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261723358 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261723655 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1261723846 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261724268 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261724292 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261725062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should design a purely conjunctivist programming language. < 1261725063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::T < 1261727999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261728000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261729799 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261733785 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-149-220.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261735889 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261735897 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261737583 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261738218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merry UK xmas ais523! < 1261738240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and merry christmas (backdated and/or forwarddated as necessary) AnMaster, and the rest of #esoteric! < 1261738305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261738346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least "happy new year" will be the same for almost everyone. (IIRC China has it's own one for example) < 1261738402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait a second.. "and/or"? < 1261738422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inclusive or < 1261738430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not technically wrong to use an inclusive or there, is there? < 1261738455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, that imples a single person could have two Christmases per year, no? < 1261738469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they fly from one country to another, yes < 1261738473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case I feel someone is cheating on the rest of us < 1261738473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1261739930 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261741196 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.182.40.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261745674 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261746447 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261746748 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261747493 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261751489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261752657 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261753647 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261753656 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261754189 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261754932 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261754995 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261755269 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261755337 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261755771 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261756261 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-219-149.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261757472 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261757481 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261757507 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261757613 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261758228 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261758681 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261758951 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261761205 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.77.237.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261761792 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1261761893 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261763054 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261763519 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261763575 0 :neuDialect!n=IceChat7@ip-85-161-70-217.eurotel.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261763666 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261763674 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261763941 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261765426 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261765467 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261765473 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261765603 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261765608 0 :neuDialect!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261765610 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261765690 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-149-220.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261766231 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261766247 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261767395 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261767398 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261768210 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261768346 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261770582 0 :neuDialect!n=IceChat7@ip-85-161-70-217.eurotel.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261770674 0 :neuDialect!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261773768 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261773936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Deewiant: any good ideas for how to go about a Make/C polygot? < 1261773943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is even possible < 1261773968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goal: make -f foo.c to build foo < 1261774114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, how to hide the C code from make < 1261774122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way around is trivial #if 0 .. #endif < 1261774275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just make it a command that's never executed? < 1261774353 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#if 0\n.hidden_target: .unsatisfiable_dependency\n#endif\n\tint main(void) { return 0; } or something < 1261774373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nice idea < 1261774376 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how make likes an unindented comment there < 1261774388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1261774401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, that means you have to indent your C code one step < 1261774408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, can't have everything < 1261774410 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh nose :-P < 1261774419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically you have to do much worse things to get polyglots to work ;-) < 1261774438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I was hoping for something that only made the make part messy < 1261774438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just set your tab width to zero and it'll be fine < 1261774443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261774479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can't you indent preprocessor iirc? < 1261774501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't think so < 1261774502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be some gnu thing only *shrug* < 1261774513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why you typicaly see # endif < 1261774516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically* < 1261774526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes. though I'm pretty sure I did it at some point by mistake, and it worked < 1261774537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*could* be a gnu extension < 1261774542 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1261774588 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261776047 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1261776074 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.187.173.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261776420 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261777458 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261777468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mlarg < 1261777805 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261778382 0 :|MigoMipo|!i=kvirc@79.138.218.212.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261779542 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261780553 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur... how shall you survive this winter without semantics homework to share with us all? < 1261780582 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and Merry Christmas (all) < 1261780792 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merry christmas Gracenotes :D < 1261780796 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, who needs semantics homework < 1261780797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when < 1261780799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres semantics books! < 1261780801 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261780804 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1261780826 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gets poked* okay okay, :D < 1261780828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, im going to write a series of blog posts on constructing a prolog interpreter :o < 1261780838 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun. backtracking? < 1261780856 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, given that it's built into the prolog language (with cuts and whatnot), it pretty much has to be backtracking < 1261780865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, just a primitive one < 1261780870 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not optimized or anything < 1261780878 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no cuts, then < 1261780892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. just bare execution < 1261780925 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itll be a very primitive prolog < 1261780926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not complete < 1261780940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just some simple inference rules and lists < 1261780994 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat. I've thought about implementing prolog. < 1261781004 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not as interesting as doing it < 1261781009 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you has blog, too? < 1261781034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261781038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wellnowwhat.net/blog < 1261781056 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes, the eminent domain I've been downloading your homework from < 1261781066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wont be a complete prolog by far actually. itll really just be a small inference engine that looks a lot like prolog < 1261781072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the EMINENT domain < 1261781130 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noes, you've been blagging for months on end now! < 1261781162 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I only see one that's a "I haven't been blogging lately" post < 1261781183 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, school makes you so busy :/ < 1261781188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1261781199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent wrote anything in like three months < 1261781201 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four even < 1261781203 0 :_MigoMipo_!i=kvirc@95.209.87.186.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261781304 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should maintain a blog. hm, how long have I been saying this? < 1261781321 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now that I actually have interesting projects I work on occasionally. And interesting thoughts even less occasionally < 1261781344 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanna coauthor you can. :D < 1261781406 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably shouldn't, I can excrete toxic amounts of Haskell from my skin < 1261781416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1261781418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm haskell < 1261781435 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find myself implementing certain monadic operations in ruby when doing certain tasks < 1261781438 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOXIC :o < 1261781453 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, you're releasing spores to other languages now < 1261781460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, coding a prolog-like thing without backtracking employs monadic operations < 1261781473 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a logic monad which does just that < 1261781481 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the logic monad backtracks < 1261781485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing non-backtracking non-deterministic computations demands list monads < 1261781500 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the humble list monad is the one that does true nondet < 1261781503 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah huh < 1261781505 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you look in my code, you'll see lots of like < 1261781520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Array; def bind(&l); ...; end; end < 1261781587 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1261781605 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, speaking of the poem on your domain's front page, I once did a Eugene Onegin-style poem outlining the fundamental theorem of calculus < 1261781633 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only thing is, it was pentameter instead of tetrameter. but I hoped Pushkin scholars might forgive me there < 1261781688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261781691 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the end, it sounded a bit less Dr. Suess-y than the one about the halting problem, to be honest >_> < 1261781693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geoff pullum wrote that one < 1261781701 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i dunno < 1261781708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive got no clue what pentameter is :D < 1261781733 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iambic pentameter = 5*2 = 10 syllables, tetrameter = 8 < 1261781742 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 and 4 iambs respectively < 1261781743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hush < 1261781754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont need your splanashuns < 1261781908 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Afa5MxwyB_zYZGhjanNrdjNfMTZkOTR6ejU&hl=en < 1261782006 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was young. I had a lot of free time. and actually, both of those are probably true :| < 1261782011 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1261782054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolololol < 1261782224 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read Hofstadter's translation of Eugene Onegin. Liked it quite a bit. < 1261782230 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261782409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man wait, what < 1261782412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're in #esoteric? < 1261782412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261782416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought we were in ##proggit < 1261782422 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im going there < 1261782626 0 :_MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261782796 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261783274 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261784263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gracenotes: yeah. i dont want it to be possible to just define functions and then apply them elsewhere < 1261784270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want it to be that like < 1261784288 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to use combinators to do things with functions < 1261784307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you dont get a syntactically invisible "apply" combinator :p < 1261784331 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, may as well be proggit < 1261784341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah bit proggit isnt esoteric < 1261784342 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261784348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is kinda esoteric < 1261784371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, if i made this a truly logic-oriented language itd be easy, then itd just be a crazy esoteric logic language < 1261784383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL FUNCTIONS must be a -> Bool < 1261784383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261784384 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.grammaticalframework.org/ is what I was thinking about < 1261784392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a is not a complex type < 1261784415 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think it might be more on the syntactical than semantic side < 1261784464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261784469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill take a look < 1261784545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrmph. < 1261784586 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be as expressive, in terms of expressing the things .you. want to express. < 1261784674 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Es[+(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1=x], Ey[first(s,y) 1=y], Ez[third(s,z), 2=z]] < 1261784675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261784690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> true < 1261784706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Es[+(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1=x], Ey[first(s,y) 1=y], Ez[third(s,z), w=z]] < 1261784707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> 2 < 1261784718 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my eyes < 1261784725 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goggles etc. < 1261784734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1261784742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse itll be cleaned up and compactified, maybe < 1261784757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1261784782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wx[1 + 2 = w] < 1261784786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even 1 + 2! :o < 1261784795 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the semantics will be such that this is what it means underlyingly < 1261784820 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie, 1+2 is sugar for the complicated Ww[...] thing < 1261784829 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by certain rules of expansion < 1261784842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ is State -> Bool < 1261784860 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the + state in the background is known to have three participates < 1261784871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :participants** < 1261784887 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is a predicate Number -> Bool < 1261784914 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so first you extract 1 < 1261784923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2, whichever < 1261784926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt matter i dont think < 1261784936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sorry, you dont extract it < 1261784940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you leave it where it is < 1261784945 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you :P < 1261784976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you look at + and you say, ok, + is a State -> Bool and 2 is a Num -> Bool < 1261784990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and we're in an infix frame) < 1261785021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so + 1 becomes (either) a State -> Bool or a Num -> Bool < 1261785054 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a DSL *needs* arithmetic, per se, no? < 1261785076 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see how it works in a prolog-y way, though < 1261785083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where its roughly \s -> +(s), Ey[first(s,y), 1(y)] or \y -> 1(y), Es[first(y,s), +(s)] < 1261785100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, 2(y), sorry :p < 1261785105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever :| < 1261785106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261785133 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you combine it with 1 to produce another either State -> Bool or Number -> Bool < 1261785161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same fashion < 1261785174 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then when you find theres nothing left to combine with < 1261785189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have just a lambda, the only good one possible, i think < 1261785212 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s -> +(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1(x)], Ex[second(s,x), 1(x)] < 1261785252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the interpreter knows that things that are +'s also need a third item in order to be acceptable < 1261785271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it inserts another one with an empty predicate: < 1261785272 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that might make/break your language is having various syntactical shortcuts... enough, not too many < 1261785275 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261785292 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you'd want it to be all explicit. depends on which patterns of usage you want to be really common :) < 1261785297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s -> +(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1(x)], Ex[second(s,x), 1(x)] becomes < 1261785315 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261785334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ew[Es[+(s), Ex[first(s,x), 1(x)], Ex[second(s,x), 1(x)], Ez[third(s,z), w(x)]] < 1261785339 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, Ww[...] < 1261785395 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the W combinator is of type (State -> Bool) -> (Num -> Bool) -> Num < 1261785396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261785408 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is the _enforced_ semantics of the language < 1261785412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cant actually escape this < 1261785428 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm hmm < 1261785441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can integrate this with my desire to have a language that uses movement :D < 1261785741 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :movement :o < 1261785873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk dessert :X < 1261786045 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you < 1261786485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1261786602 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai? < 1261786618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hi < 1261786724 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261786731 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :əʊ haÉŞ? < 1261786803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youre canadian arent you < 1261786847 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New York born and raised < 1261786864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. then your ling training was better than i expected. or something. < 1261786881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho i indeed wouldve said @U, i probably wouldve transcribed it as oU < 1261786999 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like copying and pasting from the local IPA-friendly dictionary < 1261787015 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read IPA. (hardly) < 1261787050 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can speak LaTeX, though. got my IDE to be â the mode for âž LaTeX enjoyment < 1261787078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex made me reveal my password to irc the other day :| < 1261787085 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd been doing my semantics homework in latex < 1261787093 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of \f{x} shit all day < 1261787095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for like two days < 1261787105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i go to irc and notice im nicked as augur_ < 1261787108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i type in < 1261787118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\msg nickserv id flibble < 1261787122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a channel < 1261787123 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261787145 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute password. *blows a kiss to it* < 1261787151 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah. backslash is not natural. < 1261787156 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT NATURAL MAN < 1261787157 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, thats not what it was, right < 1261787163 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just chose it as an example < 1261787164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261787182 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, well, my fake password is bubbles. and it's cuter than yours! >:| < 1261787190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261787198 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mine is MISTER flibble! :| < 1261787269 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, looks like I'm dealing with a professional here. *backs away slowly* < 1261787330 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION browses reddit < 1261787434 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm watching Buffy. yes, THE VAMPIRE SLAYER < 1261787439 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1261787455 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is keeping me quite interested < 1261787853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so heres my idea < 1261787865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have the expression 1 + 2 < 1261787872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1 + 2" < 1261787890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the "abstract" structure ["1", ["+", "2"]] < 1261787947 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1" = 1 :: n, "2" = 2 :: n, "+" = \s:SUM(s) -> true :: s -> t / n,n,n < 1261787978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where n,n,n means "if s is SUM(s) then you need three more participants to evaluate this expression" < 1261788020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :["+", "2"] = \s:SUM(s) -> true && first(s,2) :: s -> t / n,n < 1261788048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :["1", ["+", "2"]] = \s:SUM(s) -> true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) :: s -> t / n < 1261788064 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the evaluator says, ok this is the top of the tree < 1261788066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we lift it now: < 1261788084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s:SUM(s) -> true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w) :: s -> t < 1261788099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this isnt a value type so close over it < 1261788108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)] < 1261788117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this has an open variable, so question-close that < 1261788126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ws[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]] < 1261788142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this can be evaluated because this is a structure that the evaluator understands < 1261788148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, it means 1+2 < 1261788159 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it evaluates it Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]] and returns 3 < 1261788187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, first it does some logic to conjunction reduce Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]] to Ww[Es:SUM(s)[first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]] < 1261788188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1261788360 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes a note to take semantics < 1261788367 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Seriously messes with your mind" < 1261788372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1261788434 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me about semantics < 1261788737 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why, back in my day, the whole family came to together to talk about semantics in front of the fireplace, we exchanged many arguments about.. er.. whatever semantics is about.. and lambdas.. †dog. â person and stuff < 1261788747 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1261788760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261788972 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :motherfucking damn < 1261788978 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've got a couple of sticky pixels < 1261789027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ive refined the ideas some more < 1261789055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1261789107 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261789108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261789123 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine you have the expression "a one + a two" < 1261789143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for simplicity actually, lets say just "1 plus a two" instead < 1261789171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say "1" ~ 1 :: n < 1261789195 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"plus" ~ \s:SUM(s).true :: s -> t / n,n,n < 1261789207 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261789219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"two" ~ \y.y = 2 :: n -> t < 1261789243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "a" ~ \p.Ey.p(y) :: (n -> t) -> t < 1261789287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even, lets say, "a" ~ \p.\q.Ey.p(y) & q(y) :: (n -> t) -> (n -> t) -> t < 1261789302 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: semantics messes with your mind? < 1261789316 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(uorygl: look at what im saying! its messed with MY mind! :D) < 1261789361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put together "a" with "two" to get < 1261789388 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if I knew what you were talking about. < 1261789389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\q.Ey[y = 2 & q(y)] :: (n -> t) -> t < 1261789401 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what your notation is. < 1261789427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you TRY to put together \s:SUM(s).true :: s -> t / n,n,n with \q.Ey[y = 2 & q(y)] :: (n -> t) -> t < 1261789430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this fails < 1261789436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you notice, hold on < 1261789464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n -> t) -> t?! maybe if i replace the expression "a two" with some unbound variable z :: n < 1261789477 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, um, "1 plus a two". < 1261789553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh no sorry my explanations are sucky :d < 1261789554 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261789562 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my logic isnt quite worked out yet < 1261789585 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is a DP; it denotes a specific value. < 1261789592 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two is a noun; it denotes a type of thing. < 1261789613 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is a determiner; it takes a type of thing and denotes a specific instance of it. < 1261789621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, DP's dont denote specific values < 1261789622 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it doesn't specify the specific instance. :-P < 1261789623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nevermind < 1261789634 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DPs totally denote specific values! < 1261789654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually they dont < 1261789659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats ok < 1261789706 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus is... a conjunction? A preposition? Anyway, it takes two DPs and becomes a DP denoting their sum. < 1261789728 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus is a lambda with a body, and a restriction on its variables < 1261789740 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"plus a two" i is another lambda < 1261789743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i think i have it < 1261789759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, figure out whether "plus" is a conjunction or a preposition. < 1261789772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess maybe it's both. < 1261789817 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, DPs don't denote specific values? < 1261789837 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Explain. < 1261789837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a two" then has the value \q.Ey[y = 2 & q(y)] :: (n -> t) -> t < 1261789851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you notice, ok fuck, this doesnt combine with "plus" :: s -> t / n,n,n < 1261789867 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you notice, hey, "plus" needs an n participant, and i'm an (n -> t) -> t < 1261789890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets replace "a plus" with an unbound z, and hold "a plus" off on the side for a while < 1261789896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on. < 1261789903 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n -> t) -> t is the same as C n for some monad C. < 1261789907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hush < 1261789915 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on. < 1261789917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we instead pretend this is "plus z" where z :: n < 1261789924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holding "a plus" on the side < 1261789960 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now we combine \s:SUM(s).true :: s -> t / n,n,n with z :: n, returning < 1261789995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z)) :: s -> t / n,n < 1261790011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we combine 1 :: n with that, returning < 1261790032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: s -> t / n < 1261790064 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we say, ok, so this is the top of the tree, but thats not a value i can deal with < 1261790093 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let me pull this up to an existentially closed statement < 1261790103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er sorry, no < 1261790104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1261790116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, let me add the last n: < 1261790129 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)) :: s -> t < 1261790142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now i can existentially close s: < 1261790155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)) :: t < 1261790191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but z is associated with "a two" and i havent handled that yet < 1261790212 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "a two" is \q.Ez[z = 2 && q(y)] < 1261790226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can bind z on the whole tree: < 1261790234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\z.Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)) :: n -> t < 1261790240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hey, n -> t! < 1261790246 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what q needs to be! < 1261790251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets use this as the value for q < 1261790264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combining "a plus" with "1 plus z" < 1261790266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving back < 1261790282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ez[z = 2 && Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w))] :: t < 1261790285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovely < 1261790304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but w is open and we introduced it to satisfy the participant needs of s:SUM(s) < 1261790318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have to bind that with a question operator < 1261790332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Ez[z = 2 && Es:SUM(s).(true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w))]] < 1261790336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, lovely < 1261790369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this isnt something we know how to complrehend, so lets do some logic: minimize Ez to exist around the smallest thing it can: < 1261790389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && Ez[z = 2 && first(s,z)] && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]] < 1261790404 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261790409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now apply some general theorem that Ex[x = y && p(x)] :- p(y) < 1261790410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to give < 1261790431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Es:SUM(s)[true && first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]] < 1261790436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then conjunction reduce true out of existence < 1261790440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Es:SUM(s)[first(s,2) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)]]] < 1261790456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now notice that this is precisely the kind of statement that the interpreter understands by default. < 1261790456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::"D < 1261791030 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what's the purpose of all this? < 1261791037 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we trying to make computers understand English? < 1261791041 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261791043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite the opposite < 1261791045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an esolang < 1261791052 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1261791055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :designed to have syntacto-semantics like natural language < 1261791079 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can see why in this sense DPs don't denote specific values. < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in your language thing, a DP has type (n -> t) -> t? < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a predicate on predicates? < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not a DP < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by "it"? < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a two" is just a convenient use of english words for function names < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English, "a two" is a DP. < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this isnt english! < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a two" is just a function of type (n -> t) -> t < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So by DP, I mean a thing that looks like an English DP. < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why is it an (n -> t) -> t? < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i wanted to force QR < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're trying to be English-like, I would expect a DP to be either a value or a predicate on values. < 1261791262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, what's QR? < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantifier raising < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a two" is actually a quantifier, right < 1261791262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\q.Ex[x = 2 && q(x)] < 1261791281 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like you might have some quantifier in haskell < 1261791299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or haskellish < 1261791318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use pseudo-Haskell notation here? I'm not used to whatever you're using. < 1261791318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all xs f = Ex:(x in xs)[f(x)] < 1261791339 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, for the sake of being pure < 1261791349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets define < 1261791356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no we cant define < 1261791357 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261791360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were TRYING to define < 1261791361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261791362 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261791364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not following a lot of what you're saying. < 1261791381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all xs f = foldr (&&) True (map f xs) < 1261791426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists xs f = foldr (||) False (map f xs) < 1261791436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists ~ some < 1261791437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1261791448 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you tell me what the value of "a two" is? < 1261791453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet < 1261791455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im getting ther e:D < 1261791459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261791467 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd rather you just tell me and we work backwards. < 1261791508 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a f g = exists [x : x <- [1..], f x] g < 1261791520 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I want to learn why the gostak distims what it does, I'd like to know what the gostak distims first. < 1261791531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two x = x == 2 < 1261791545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a two == exists [x : x <- [1..], x == 2] g < 1261791564 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a two/a two g/, I'm assuming. < 1261791571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, yeah sure < 1261791580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a two = exists [x : x <- [1..], x == 2] < 1261791594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we have plus < 1261791616 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "a two" takes a predicate and returns whether 2 satisfies that predicate, right? < 1261791623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1261791627 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus is something i cant write in haskell, but lets modify haskell a bit < 1261791667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say that in haskell, the argument in a lambda can have a restriction which is _almost_ like a type but instead tells you what kind of thing this is for semantic interpretability < 1261791671 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll denote it like so < 1261791676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x:R = ... < 1261791681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where R is the restriction < 1261791693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets say that plus s:SUM = true < 1261791700 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in your type system, n means values and t means Booleans, right? < 1261791709 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n means Ints, t means Bools < 1261791713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s means States < 1261791723 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so plus s:SUM = true :: s -> t < 1261791726 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means a DP is C n, where C is the continuation monad C x = (x -> t) -> t. < 1261791754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since s:SUM, and SUMs need 3 "participants" in order to be semantically _sensible_ < 1261791760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can say < 1261791769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus s:SUM = true :: s -> t / 3 < 1261791783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"s:SUM" can be read "s which is a SUM", yes? < 1261791790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or s -> t / n,n,n specifically < 1261791796 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, s-which-is-a-SUM < 1261791800 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not a type restriction, keep in mind < 1261791803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261791821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so now we want to combine "plus" with "a two" < 1261791829 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "plus s:SUM = true :: s -> t / 3", are you using s consistently? < 1261791835 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like you're using it inconsistently. < 1261791847 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "t / 3" mean? < 1261791855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its (s -> t) / 3 < 1261791864 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1261791869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the / 3 means "needs three participants in order to be sensible" < 1261791885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im using s as both the name of the type and the name of the var < 1261791890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't do that. < 1261791896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want, plus s:SUM = true :: S -> T / N,N,N < 1261791902 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonderful. < 1261791903 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261791917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "a two" is (N -> T) -> T < 1261791921 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this doesnt match up < 1261791924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks to me like you're being really complicated. :-P < 1261791931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a two" cant be an arg to "plus" < 1261791939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets be hopeful: < 1261791941 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a State, anyway? < 1261791945 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont worry ;P < 1261791955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the end, the primitive types wont matter < 1261791962 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can make it untyped < 1261791965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mono-typed < 1261791974 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, mono-primitive < 1261791979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261791983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets be hopeful < 1261791987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have plus :: ((N,N,N) -> T) -> T or something. < 1261791993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shush < 1261791994 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen < 1261791996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be quite < 1261791997 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, sir. < 1261792009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since "a two" looks like (a -> b) -> b < 1261792018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this just looks like a type-lifted a < 1261792023 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261792025 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "a two" looks like a type-lifted N < 1261792038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets replace "a two" with some place holder, call it tz < 1261792039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of type N < 1261792048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hold "a two" off to the side < 1261792050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great. < 1261792066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now what we're really trying to do is combine plus :: (S -> T) / N,N,N with tz :: N < 1261792076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, still, tz isnt an S so it cant be an argument to plus < 1261792083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe its one of those three participants! < 1261792089 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261792100 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want to explain why plus has that type? < 1261792103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261792110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its magic, youll see < 1261792118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can specify this. its the first of the three participants to be added, sooo < 1261792122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we combine the two like so: < 1261792162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus ^ tz = \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) :: S -> T / N,N < 1261792195 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretend i said z everywhere before where i said tz :p < 1261792211 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure... < 1261792221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(im mixing domains of discourse here, so im thinking partially in terms of words with meanings, and partially in terms of pure meanings, so its difficult. anyway...) < 1261792236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so plus ^ tz = \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) :: S -> T / N,N < 1261792241 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1261792257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now 1 is :: N < 1261792262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause remmber we're doing "1 plus a two" < 1261792272 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As you can see, the ellipsis denoted that I was responding to your second to last message. :-P) < 1261792272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N again can be used as a participant < 1261792281 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261792317 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, it seems to me that natural language has a value embed :: (Monad m) => m a -> a < 1261792325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we combine (plus ^ z) with 1: 1 ^ (plus ^ z) = \s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) :: S -> T / N < 1261792351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we've handled the whole of the _expression_ "1 plus z" < 1261792353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wait < 1261792358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have some problems! < 1261792369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, we didnt handle that whole "a two" thing, we just left it off to the size < 1261792390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second we still dont have a last N participant for this function < 1261792395 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we must proceed! < 1261792397 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can continue listening unless you tell me why you gave plus that type. < 1261792397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can we do? < 1261792405 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will when im done :p < 1261792418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we can existentially close of the s variable! < 1261792423 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) :: S -> T / N < 1261792426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this then becomes.... < 1261792428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then say my name when you're done. < 1261792459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261792462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no keep reading < 1261792463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were almost there < 1261792487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: N -> T / N < 1261792494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er sorry < 1261792497 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite that far :p < 1261792503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: T / N < 1261792512 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, no alternative activity comes to mind. I'll have to keep reading. < 1261792527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now wait, z isnt _technically_ a bound variable < 1261792548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have to bind it, but we dont want to do existential, since we got z by removing "a two" < 1261792550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we do a lambda: < 1261792555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1)) :: N -> T / N < 1261792578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we have an N -> T that "a two" :: (N -> T) -> T can combine with! < 1261792594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we put them together to get < 1261792602 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm not reading so much as checking to see whether you're answering my question yet. < 1261792613 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1))) :: T / N < 1261792622 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UORYGL < 1261792631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking fine < 1261792641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me stop this ALMOST FINISHED EXPLANATION < 1261792646 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can answer your question < 1261792651 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you very much. < 1261792658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LETS HOPE YOU REMEMBER WHERE WE FUCKING WERE < 1261792712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is to try and force the language to allow _only_ primitive combinations of functions (ie the kind of combinations you can type into a REPL) which involve ONLY forks of two functions < 1261792729 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forks? < 1261792731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261792733 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in J < 1261792741 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with J. < 1261792755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fork f g h z = f (g x) (h x) < 1261792762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the classic definition of avg is < 1261792779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :avg = fork (+) len (/) < 1261792784 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261792785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261792790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for (/) (+) len < 1261792791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1261792823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where + should be the summation operation < 1261792824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1261792827 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261792845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since fork (/) (foldr (+) 0) len = \xs (/) (foldr (+) 0 xs) (len xs) < 1261792864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then how do you force plus to be a fork-able function? < 1261792872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, thats where the language-y stuff comes in < 1261792887 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just say plus is a predicate that specifies that kind of thing its argument is < 1261792889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1261792900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all plus does is \s:SUM -> true < 1261792912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that if you do < 1261792918 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus a_state < 1261792927 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is true < 1261792936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, by assertion, s is a SUM < 1261792951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so the :SUM thing kind of is an assertion of type, rather than a restriction on type) < 1261792956 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I've not thought about it, it sounds a lot like you're saying, "I want my language to allow only oranges. Now, how do we represent an apple as an orange?" < 1261792964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. < 1261792992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want your language to be purely logical (Prolog) you have to represent addition some special way < 1261793005 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "apple" and "orange" are mutually exclusive concepts. < 1261793005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want your language to be purely functional (Haskell) you have to represent loops some special way < 1261793006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1261793013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, theyre NOT mutually exclusive < 1261793021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre just very different perspectives on things < 1261793023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, to continue < 1261793054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've now figured out how to satisfy "a two"'s argument < 1261793055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Apple" and "orange" are mutually exclusive. You're denying that my analogy applies. < 1261793059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is precisely what I expected. < 1261793063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1261793066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOTH ARE FRUITS < 1261793068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261793069 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>| < 1261793079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've done so and gotten back exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1))) :: T / N < 1261793088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is GREAT, because this is a basic value < 1261793098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wait, its not a sensible meaning < 1261793106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still needs an N < 1261793107 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261793113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we dont HAVE an N! < 1261793114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can we do < 1261793115 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1261793126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we can ask which N will make it sensible! < 1261793132 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm not your intended audience. < 1261793141 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now? stick third(s,w) in there at the appropriate place < 1261793152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,z))) :: T < 1261793161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now this has an unbound variable z < 1261793164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have to close it < 1261793167 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means I'm just being distracted and should get back to something useful. < 1261793169 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how can we close it? well, lambdas. < 1261793189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woops, this should be w < 1261793192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we have z already < 1261793196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\w -> exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w))) :: N -> T < 1261793207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but alas, this is _still_ not a value < 1261793218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can we do? < 1261793226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can "question" it: < 1261793236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which [1..] (\w -> exists [z : z <- [1..], z = 2] (\z -> exists states (\s:SUM -> true && first(s,z) && second(s,1) && third(s,w)))) :: t < 1261793258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where which is like < 1261793276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods in a way that expresses that he believes that his suspicion has been confirmed. < 1261793296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which x:xs f = if (f x) then x else which xs f < 1261793318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which [1..] (\w -> ...) is of type N < 1261793333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can definitely display one of those! < 1261793334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1261793357 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is how my esolang is going to calculate 1 + 2 :D < 1261793363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261793365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 plus a two < 1261793374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar for 1 + 2 but less crazy < 1261793410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, since we're being haskellish < 1261793417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 `plus` (a two) < 1261793426 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep coming back to this conversation. It would be easier for me to leave if I explicitly closed my end and you acknowledged the closure. < 1261793429 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, see you. < 1261793436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww :( < 1261793446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl doesnt like my esolang :| < 1261793477 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your esolang is probably interesting, but I must admit I can't find interest in what you're saying. < 1261793489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i was giving an evaluation trace < 1261793493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who COULD find interest < 1261793504 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your purpose is to interest me, you should answer my questions and say little else. < 1261793515 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ask me a question then < 1261793527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you sort of interrupted an explanation i was giving to Gracenotes, so... < 1261793532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got the rest of it < 1261793537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you started asking queeestions < 1261793538 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its like < 1261793546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was in the middle of explaining something, you demanded i restart < 1261793547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1261793548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261793550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. I felt I would have been interrupting you, since you were saying so much. < 1261793581 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to be interesting. Did I imply that I wanted that? < 1261793590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/be interesting/interest me/ < 1261793616 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, my question, if you want to answer it, is what it means for a fork to be "of" two functions. < 1261793628 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fork f g h x, what's that a fork of? < 1261793635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261793637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1261793642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1261793665 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you said "only primitive combinations of functions which involve only forks of two functions". < 1261793677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fork :: forall a, b, c. (a -> b) -> (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> c < 1261793685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i defined fork earlier :| < 1261793696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fork f g h x = f (g x) (h x) < 1261793705 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261793713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my types are not matching my definitions but whatever < 1261793715 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the point < 1261793735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is fork (/) (+) len a fork of (+) and len, or what? < 1261793762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fork :: forall a, b, c. (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c < 1261793791 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b -> b -> c), not (b -> b), I think. < 1261793802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fork (/) (+) is a higher order function \f -> \x -> (+ x) / (f x) < 1261793813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its (b -> c) < 1261793839 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember tho, i mistyped + instead of like... foldr (+) < 1261793875 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm trying to understand is your usage of "of", though. < 1261793885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1261793894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean when i said that i wanted everything to be forks of functions < 1261793894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261793895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261793897 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i meant is < 1261793935 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fork of f and g is: forsome h. \x -> h (f x) (g x) < 1261793968 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fork f g h x is a fork of g and h. < 1261793986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261794131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders fork. < 1261794166 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261794213 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an arrow operation that does that. Something like (&&&) :: ar a b -> ar c d -> ar (a,c) (b,d) < 1261794216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway! < 1261794236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. i dont know what its like in haskell < 1261794253 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you familiar with arrows in Haskell? < 1261794258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1261794339 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're things that look like functions. Something is an arrow if it has three operations: turning a function into one, composing two of them, and "fork"ing two of them into one. < 1261794367 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that's not really fork; it's more like (&&&) f g (x,y) = (f x, g y). You can make fork out of it. < 1261794401 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lessee. fork f g h = f . (g &&& h) . (\x -> (x,x)) < 1261794410 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where . is the composition operator. < 1261794415 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway! :-P < 1261794437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what . is in haskell :P < 1261794454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think you mean < 1261794481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh.. no youre right. :D < 1261794488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1261794490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261794501 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I said that because . only works for actual functions, not arrow things in general. < 1261794535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the evaluation of "1 + a two" is such that a lot of it is not written (e.g. the extraction of "a two" is not explicit) < 1261794546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in that its done by the interpreter) < 1261794557 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what "1 plus a two" would look like if it were done with arrows. < 1261794564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but infact maybe you _could_ do it yourself < 1261794571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a two: 1 + < 1261794587 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this evaluates to 3 as well < 1261794596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's use @ for an arrow: a @ b is a "function" taking a and returning b. < 1261794600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lets you use functions normally < 1261794607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that + is not defined as Int -> Int -> Int < 1261794624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather as State -> Bool / Int, Int, Int < 1261794681 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Plus" could be (N,N) @ N, "1" could be () @ N, "a two" could likewise be () @ N... < 1261794703 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use arrow operators to combine those into () @ N the right way. < 1261794736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really should write the interp for this < 1261794740 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1261794799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the idea tho man < 1261794800 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1261794809 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to extend it to quantifiers tho < 1261794832 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by we i mean me < 1261794835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but im talking to you, so < 1261794853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah there can be real functions < 1261794871 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A two" isn't really an N, though; you said that. < 1261794871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! haha! there wont be < 1261794876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261794880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a two" is (N -> T) -> T < 1261794903 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we define a @ b as a -> (b -> T) -> T, then "a two" is () @ N. < 1261794923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, "a two" == \q.Ex:(x = 2)[q(x)] < 1261794957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yes < 1261795123 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though what you say makes me want to say stuff of my own. :-) < 1261795134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1261795197 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's call P a point concept, a specific thing, where anything you might refer to is exactly one point concept. < 1261795212 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i think "a" would infact be defined as E* < 1261795249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That orange over there" is a phrase referring to a point concept. There is exactly one thing that you're talking about. < 1261795269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261795271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a deictic < 1261795272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261795289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deictic terms are the only referentials really < 1261795305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even "that", while being deictic, is a quantifier < 1261795308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lets his browser look up the word "deictic". < 1261795320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just a quantifier that has a use of a bound variable < 1261795326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P -> T is a sort of region concept, a type of thing. "Orange" is a region concept, I guess. < 1261795327 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bound globals, really < 1261795372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that f g = exists [x : x == the_global, f x] g < 1261795384 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say R = P -> T. < 1261795390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261795398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nouns tend to denote Rs, and DPs tend to denote Ps. < 1261795410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"point" concepts are denoted E, btw < 1261795411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1261795416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in semantics, e < 1261795452 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you know, we dont use -> in semantics? we use <,>, following church. its horrible. a -> b -> c == <a,<b,c>> < 1261795509 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that's attested is DPs denoting Rs instead of Ps, which is too bad. < 1261795543 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, let's pretend English is a subject-dropping language; it doesn't really matter. < 1261795577 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its actually rare that DPs actually point < 1261795582 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verbs can stand alone as sentences, but they are usually modified by subjects, direct objects, indirect objects, and prepositional phrases. < 1261795583 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring "that dog" < 1261795595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the cat" does not actually point < 1261795597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does "John" < 1261795613 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John" doesn't actually point? < 1261795616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope! < 1261795623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it sort of does actually < 1261795635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John" can be one of two things < 1261795641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either an NP, which is a predicate like "cat" < 1261795660 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261795661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a deictic DP, with a covert deictic existential quantifier < 1261795674 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261795676 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively, "John is eating" and "Somebody named John is eating" mean different things. < 1261795678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that when you say "John" as a DP, as in "John danced" < 1261795691 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-71-77.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261795702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure sure but "Somebody named 'John' is eating" is overly something even more complex < 1261795713 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261795726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we think that "John danced" is really "NOM John danced" < 1261795735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where NOM is roughly "Some" only a covert some < 1261795737 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice, < 1261795743 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nom nom nom < 1261795746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John danced" is the same as "Some 'John' danced" < 1261795754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except where you have someone in mind < 1261795774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some 'John' who I'm thinking of danced" < 1261795793 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, this is what you have to say to fully account for the semantics of english < 1261795807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without being obnoxious and saying that there's either < 1261795817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) 10 different versions of the verb "eat" < 1261795841 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think that intuitively, "John is eating" and "Some John who I'm thinking of is eating" mean different things. The former is ambiguous, the latter is inspecific. < 1261795848 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) 10 different versions of "the" < 1261795859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it DOES mean something different < 1261795875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the meaning of "Some John who I'm thinking of is eating" is an actual english sentence with a complex meaning < 1261795886 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the problem is that like < 1261795904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the quantifier inside of "NOM" is not the SAME as the quantifier "some ... who I'm thinking of" < 1261795904 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be claiming that they do mean the same thing. < 1261795912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre roughly the same, right < 1261795922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but insofar as your internal representation is concerned, they're not < 1261795938 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1261795943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and representationally they're different < 1261795952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that "1 + 2" and "2 + 1" are different haskell expressions < 1261795958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you evaluate them they mean the same thing < 1261795980 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you "evaluate" the two sentences "John is eating" and "Some John that I'm thinking of is eating", WHILE you're thinking of that particular John < 1261795990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wont be able to find a difference in meaning < 1261796029 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say that "John is eating" does refer to a specific John, though which John it is may be undeterminable. < 1261796040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undeterminable by the listener < 1261796041 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not by you < 1261796070 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we reflect upon the meanings of sentences, we're not looking at whether or not the sentence is true, nor what makes the sentences true, we're looking at the form of the meaning < 1261796119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the form of the meaning of "John is eating" really does seem to have something like a quantifier in it, at when you represent the meaning using the normal modes of meaning representation. < 1261796146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all we ever said were things like "John is eating" this wouldnt be an issue < 1261796160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, if all we said were things like "John is eating" and "all dogs are brown" this wouldnt be an issue < 1261796177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is "John is eating something" < 1261796189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1261796199 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm trying to create the concept of "the P referred to by a DP". I think in order to do that, I have to find three mutually correlated properties, and say that this new concept is the thing that they are related by being correlated with. < 1261796199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The John that I know is eating something" < 1261796228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1261796230 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm getting caught up in Philosopher's Molasses. < 1261796239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, semanticists molasses :p < 1261796242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but such is language! < 1261796257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to account for object quantification you need a whole mess of shit < 1261796260 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rationalist's Molasses. < 1261796262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a number of options < 1261796272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ONE option, you could ALMOST get away wit h John being deictic < 1261796284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except then you have to have as many words "John" as know people named John < 1261796299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND you also have to have another word "John" that means "person named 'John'" < 1261796317 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pondering when it's valid to postulate a concept. < 1261796351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at the same time you STILL need to have purely deictic terms like "that" < 1261796367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some covert terms that seem to be genuinely deictic < 1261796401 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then theres the problem that in many languages, even PROPER NOUNS must be used with "the" < 1261796402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1261796412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in greek, you dont say "John is dancing" you say "The John is dancing" < 1261796432 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, we should stop trying to find the Deep Theoretical Platonic Truth until we figure out how it's related to the Shallow Empirical Observable Truth. < 1261796440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same "the" (an 'o' or there abouts eg 'o janos') that you use to say "the cat" < 1261796453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no shallow empirical observable truth :D < 1261796468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum mechanics and that berkeley dude has shown us this < 1261796480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the contrary! < 1261796490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, the evidence that "John" is really a deictic quantifier is quite strong < 1261796522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it seems like "John is eating" points to some particular person John (because it does) and that it has a different meaning that "Some John is eating" (because it does) < 1261796536 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I look at a glass, I know that I see a glass. < 1261796543 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there really a glass there? Almost certainly. < 1261796558 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The presence of that glass is the shallow empirical observable truth. < 1261796558 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that does NOT mean that "John" here by itself, as the smallest meaningful object that contains the letters "John", is infact the thing doing the pointing. < 1261796574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont know you see a glass, you THINK you see a glass < 1261796595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most you know is that you're experiencing what it would be like to see a glass < 1261796604 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what you would call a glass < 1261796655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not to say you dont have a very good reason to think that < 1261796655 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. In any case, we know *something* upon seeing a glass; whatever logic is based on, let us call that knowledge. < 1261796667 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/logic is based on/the premises of logical reasoning are/ < 1261796681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that reason is merely 500 million years of evolution hard-coding some very sophisticated philosophical argumentation < 1261796691 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so seeing a glass is NOT shallow at all < 1261796712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just that the depth is masked by the fact that conscious experience is a very recent thing that has very LITTLE access to cognitive processes < 1261796724 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's shallow in that it's a very familiar and intuitive sort of thing. < 1261796729 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261796738 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but familiar and intuitive is irrelevant < 1261796748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we're doing semantics, we're not asking what is intuitive < 1261796754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're asking what is real < 1261796758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or accurate, at least. < 1261796782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :science has revealed again and again that the intuitive understanding of the world is usually wrong < 1261796783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it depends on whose perspective you're speaking of. From a human's perspective, it's a shallow truth. From a computer's perspective, it's presumably a pretty deep one. < 1261796804 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :motion is not newtonian, there is no such thing as simultaneous, and you are not the best authority on the contents of your own mindbrainthing < 1261796814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, its a shallow truth < 1261796816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said < 1261796817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means nothing < 1261796825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because were not ASKING what the shallow truth is < 1261796836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you ask a person what does "fido is a dog" mean, they just repeat the sentence back at you < 1261796842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why, it means that fido is a dog! duh!" < 1261796853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats not a meaning < 1261796863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not what your mental representation of the meaning is < 1261796865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely not! < 1261796880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "fido is a dog" is a string of letters/sounds! < 1261796902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its almost certainly not the case that our representations of meaning are in terms of abstract syntax trees < 1261796936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then then bilingual speakers would never be able to say that "rex is a cat" and "rex est un chat" mean the same thing < 1261796937 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But our deep knowledge is based on our shallow knowledge and it exists for the purpose of predicting what our next shallow knowledge will be. < 1261796948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because french and english probably dont have the same abstract syntax in that regard < 1261796953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but guess what < 1261796965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our shallow knowledge of LANGUAGE is buttressed by an enormously complex linguistic faculty < 1261796990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what reason do you have to believe that when you learn the word "fido" that you're just learning what it points to? < 1261797000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is NOT part of your shallow experience < 1261797009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because now we're in the realm of cognitive science/psychology/whatever < 1261797022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your shallow experience of the world does not include the details of name acquisition < 1261797033 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it includes the experience of seeing someone point to an animal and go "fido" < 1261797036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fido fido fido" < 1261797038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is fido" < 1261797044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"c'mere fido!" < 1261797047 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fido want a treat?" < 1261797051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thats a good fido" < 1261797086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oops, sorry, i just used a quantifier in your primary linguistic data! D: you might get the impress that fido is really a predicate!) < 1261797105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think we're talking about the deep truth again. < 1261797108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, we're not < 1261797119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're saying that the "Shallow" meaning of "fido" is the dog itself < 1261797122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do you know this? < 1261797129 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres nothing in your experience of the world that shows this < 1261797145 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to make an ASSUMPTION about how people learn the meaning of words < 1261797172 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your ASSUMPTION is that "fido" is by default going to be mapped to the dog in question, not to some abstract "fidoness" quality < 1261797179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats the whole thing you're ARGUING! < 1261797180 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking about things that are themselves deep truth. < 1261797199 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shallow truth of semantics is whatever we can observe and feel about it. < 1261797207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you CANT observe semantics < 1261797221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you cant FEEL everything either < 1261797224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said earlier < 1261797231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you _FEEL_ that when you typed "John" < 1261797232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If semantics has no observable or feelable consequences, there's no reason to discuss it. < 1261797236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that this whole thing referred to someone < 1261797242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sure, in a way it DID refer to someone in particular < 1261797254 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesnt mean that "John" those four letters are really all there is to that phrase < 1261797262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor that that person is all there is to that meaning < 1261797277 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great. So I can see some shallow truth there. < 1261797283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you cant < 1261797297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... < 1261797307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you can see is the fact that the string of letters "John" seems to refer to a particular person. < 1261797308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats it. < 1261797314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt tell you whether or not thats ALL it does < 1261797327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. The shallow truth is that "John" probably refers to a particular person. < 1261797342 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said < 1261797344 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deictics DO refer < 1261797351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "John" can be a deictic < 1261797355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its STILL a quantifier as well < 1261797366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its a quantifier with has a deictic element < 1261797370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, more accurately < 1261797382 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a predicate that combines with a quantifier that has a deictic element inside it < 1261797398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that J was _that particular John_ < 1261797414 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current best guess is that "John" in "John is eating" has the meaning roughly like < 1261797453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\p -> Ex[x = J & calledJohn(x)] < 1261797467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've GOT the deicticy thing in there < 1261797484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're referring directly to the person, in that there IS the use of J in there < 1261797498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that does NOT mean that the whole thing isnt a quantifier, ok < 1261797535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, the root word "John" (not the phrase "John" in "John is eating") is NOT the thing thats contributing the referentiality < 1261797540 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the quantifier! < 1261797561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\q, p -> Ex[x = J & p(x) & q(x)] < 1261797587 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this quantifier in english (but not in greek maybe?) happens to be phonologically empty < 1261797602 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you mentioned "the current best guess". What's the question we're guessing the answer to? < 1261797615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the meaning of "John" looks like < 1261797629 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the person john, or some quantifier, or whatever < 1261797632 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the question < 1261797662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the assumption that its just a reference to some person in particular just _doesnt work_ with the rest of the meanings of sentences < 1261797686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we can waffle about the meaning of "meaning" < 1261797686 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, "What does the meaning of 'John' look like?" Now, I can't look at a meaning and see what it looks like, so what's the shallow truth we're trying to figure out by answering that question? < 1261797695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and say that meaning is the intention behind the expression < 1261797699 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats way too loose < 1261797712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then the meaning of an expression is whatever the person intends it to be, regardless of the conventions of the language < 1261797728 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John is eating" means "Mary danced" because i INTENDED it to < 1261797732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, sorry, it doesnt < 1261797742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said < 1261797748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics is NOT a shallow truth < 1261797768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you cant just tell me that John refers to the person because thats the shallow truth of it < 1261797773 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that instead of waffling about meanings, it's better to say what we'd like to say without using the word at all. < 1261797777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're saying the meaning of John is a reference to a person < 1261797788 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the meaning of expressions is not a shallow truth! < 1261797802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, uorygl < 1261797812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you can figure out what you're trying to say without using the word meaning, be my guess :P < 1261797814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guest* < 1261797841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or without using any words that covertly incorporate notions of meaning < 1261797846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should we conclude upon hearing "John is eating"? < 1261797861 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do people want when they say "John is eating"? < 1261797894 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combine those: What do people want us to conclude when they say "John is eating"? < 1261797917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should conclude that the speaker believes there is a person that the speaker believes is called john with whom the speaker knows, and assumes the hearer knows as well, and that this person is, at this very moment, engaged in a process of eating something or other which the speaker doesnt know the identity of, or which the speaker does not feel the identity of to be relevant < 1261797944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should also conclude that the speaker believes that this is somehow relevant to the conversation were having and that i will be able to integrate this into my understanding of the situation < 1261797946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, there's a whole bunch we should conclude. < 1261797951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261797958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that is not the meaning of the sentence "John is eating" < 1261797978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because when someone says "John is eating" they are not conveying to you "I believe you know who John is" < 1261797985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if they were < 1261798023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are all sorts of because < 1261798024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1261798040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I said that Frank was wrong when he said that "John is eating" < 1261798075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is definitely not going to be the case if Frank didn't actually think I knew who John was < 1261798088 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1261798098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but all of this hinges on the WORD "meaning" < 1261798111 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, we can just ask what we should concluce < 1261798132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that leads to a whole world of shit beyond just LANGUAGE < 1261798141 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it leads to psychology of action < 1261798146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferring why people do things < 1261798146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261798154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that can lead to inferences about the physical world < 1261798179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "john died after jumping off the bridge" leads us to conclude that the speaker believes something about jumping off of bridges and death < 1261798181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like say falling < 1261798182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gravity < 1261798187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that yadda yadda < 1261798202 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shallow truth can hinge upon the definition of a word. Unless, of course, said truth is about the word itself. < 1261798223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we can or should conclude from a sentence is not the meaning of the sentence, its the meaning of the sentence plus a whole shittone of other crap thats brought into the task of understanding < 1261798235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but thats the thing see < 1261798243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant even ask what the shallow truth of blah blah blah is < 1261798250 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is no shallow truth of "John" < 1261798254 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just a word < 1261798256 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway: < 1261798259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :truth is a property of claims < 1261798262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or propositions < 1261798267 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "John" is not a proposition < 1261798278 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's call the "real" definition of meaning meaning1, and my definition of meaning meaning2. < 1261798283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261798288 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets not use the word meaning at all < 1261798295 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the meaning1 of "John is eating" does not include the fact that I know who John is, but the meaning2 does. < 1261798301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets do what semanticists do and say this: < 1261798315 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do we care about the meaning1? < 1261798340 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watching Maru yawn in slow motion is perhaps the most satisfying thing I've done today < 1261798340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know the "meaning" of a sentence like "John is eating", you know what is required of the world for it to be true or not < 1261798355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also know some other stuff, but at the very least you know what is required for it to be "literally true" < 1261798397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics is the study of the literal content of expressions < 1261798403 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let me take a different route. < 1261798411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, it turns out, in order to understand the WHOLE of the "meaning" of "John is eating" < 1261798416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, to include your meaning1 as well < 1261798419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you would agree that "Oh no!" doesn't have a truth value. < 1261798425 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know that it doesn't have a truth value? < 1261798426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to know the litteral content < 1261798436 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why do you care that it doesn't have a truth value? < 1261798446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt have a truth value because you cant so "No, you're wrong." when someone says "Oh no!" < 1261798460 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I've sort of been passively wondering what the scope if it all is, how about, say, "John is ugly"? < 1261798467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is whether or not "Oh no!" is language. < 1261798477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a bunch of sounds you made with your mouth < 1261798481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so is a sneeze < 1261798484 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or instead of ugly, some other thing that is 100% an opinion of the speaker < 1261798502 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we might actually accept that its language, sure < 1261798513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say its language, ok < 1261798528 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we feel like there's a notion of contradictability. < 1261798533 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all. < 1261798543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt say that ALL linguistic expressions have truth values < 1261798553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said that expressions like "John is dancing" have truth values < 1261798553 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When somebody says "You're wrong!" in response to "Oh no!", that makes us feel a specific way. < 1261798573 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oh sorry i see what you mean < 1261798580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, i mean < 1261798582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant say < 1261798588 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yes thats true" to someone's "oh no" < 1261798594 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: again, how's "John is ugly?" < 1261798595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor can you say "no thats false" < 1261798597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or no thats wrong < 1261798598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1261798602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gracenotes: what about it) < 1261798605 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that a "?, not ?" < 1261798620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in-situ questions. what about it? < 1261798633 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's not something that is provably true or false, yes, what we learned about in grade school as truth vs. opinions < 1261798647 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "Some say John is fugly" < 1261798666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John is ugly" is an assertion < 1261798671 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is verifiable, although semantics must still make meaning about what the claim is < 1261798675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, in some very real sense, it can be considered true or false < 1261798690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John is ugly?" with a question mark is a question < 1261798695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so doesnt have a truth value < 1261798704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... < 1261798707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! < 1261798715 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sou desu < 1261798721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sou ka? < 1261798734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, uorygl < 1261798736 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I know a certain thing, and I hear the sentence "John is eating", I will agree. < 1261798743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1261798749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the kind of meaning that semantics is concerned with < 1261798757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the literal sorts of meaning < 1261798760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think we've come up with a definition of meaning. < 1261798769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not what you can infer from the expression < 1261798777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just what the literal meaning is < 1261798781 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john be fugly < 1261798786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the literal content, if you will < 1261798792 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just know that, when you hear him used in example questions < 1261798798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a whole field of exploring the non-literal meanings behind things < 1261798801 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's not truly beautiful :_: < 1261798802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of that is pragmatics < 1261798806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of that is psychology < 1261798807 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we can confuse the issue a bit, though. < 1261798847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually we cant. there are very clear lines that can be drawn between literal meaning, pragmatics, and psychology. < 1261798856 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose that I and a friend are walking along, and we both see something disgusting. My friend says, "Eew." Am I agreeing? < 1261798862 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the problematic aspects are all at the line between pragmatics and psychology. < 1261798883 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if my friend says "Disgusting!"? < 1261798888 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on what you mean by "agree"! < 1261798920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this definition of "meaning" that I came up with hinges on what "agreement" is. < 1261798930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are at least two words in english that are written "agree" < 1261798933 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two senses of the same word < 1261798940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is "share an opinion" < 1261798943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261798974 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Alexis expressed disgust at the food. I agreed inside, but didn't say anything." < 1261798976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1261798989 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261798992 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you work in semantics, you might have to explain this depressingly often :| but better to introduce non-linguists, I suppose. < 1261799005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other can mean "express concurrance on a matter" < 1261799006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261799014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Alexis didn't agree to the terms of the deal" < 1261799023 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1261799033 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"even if inside Alexis really liked the deal, her bosses insisted that she not agree to it" < 1261799086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: SO often. you have no idea how many times, when working on an extraordinarily complicated issue like what the meaning of "Fido is a dog" is, someone will say "Fido is a dog just means Fido is a dog! It's simple!" < 1261799090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, its not simple, sorry < 1261799095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just DESIGNED TO UNDERSTAND IT < 1261799101 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a black art < 1261799108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were truly simple, my calculator could understand what it means < 1261799110 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have secret semanticist rituals < 1261799114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the true test < 1261799124 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simplicity is demonstrable: program it. < 1261799136 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats how we know that calculus, for instance, is mindnumbingly simple, when it comes down to it < 1261799161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the calculus youve ever done in your life to date could be done in a computer program in a few minutes or hours < 1261799165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL of it < 1261799176 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a computer isnt anywhere near as smart as a person < 1261799191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if calculus is so easy that a computer can do it, it must be easy < 1261799196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of how difficult humans find it < 1261799197 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it okay if I interpret "program" as meaning "express in a computer language", where a "computer language" is any language that expresses details that a computer deals with intimately? < 1261799208 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure! < 1261799213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact < 1261799215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great. < 1261799218 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, has anyone bothered making a language --(parse)--> syntax --(interpret)--> semantics tool, at some point? < 1261799225 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say that "program" means "express in some form of logic" < 1261799240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since programming languages are just logics. < 1261799251 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine there must be. But fragments of it, which I'm sure is not perfect, otherwise it's what we'd all be using < 1261799254 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's kind of ambiguous, isn't it? Straightforward English is arguably a form of logic. < 1261799254 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, they have < 1261799257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they tend to suck. < 1261799263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no < 1261799266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is far from it < 1261799271 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euclid wrote in straightforward English, for strange values of "English". < 1261799283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euclid wrote in straightforward Greek ;) < 1261799297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i should have said is < 1261799300 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in some Logic" < 1261799308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a Logic is a well defined formal system < 1261799314 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for America!" --a straw man < 1261799318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like first order predicate calculus or whatever < 1261799329 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that works. < 1261799330 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, programming language < 1261799332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care < 1261799356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just easier to expression certain things in a language like PC2 or HPC or whatever < 1261799369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ SOL/HOL < 1261799377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to express** < 1261799383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats what i was doing earlier! < 1261799386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you complained! < 1261799387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261799398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. :-) < 1261799404 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try to give a good, well defined meaning for "John" < 1261799413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your well defined meaning is a referential < 1261799433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, a symbol referring to, or behaving as if it were, the person) < 1261799446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. your logic says the meaning of "John" is J) < 1261799463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you will, inevitably, conclude that there must be an infinite number of distinct words "John" < 1261799493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John_1" refers to John Lennon, "John_2" refers to JFK, "John_3" refers to the pizza delivery boy, ... < 1261799500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all of the John's that you know < 1261799510 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would those have to be distinct words? < 1261799525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would make a lot of sense, I think, for them to be distinct senses of a single word. < 1261799527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well explain how you'd distinguish which is meant! < 1261799541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me how a single word "John" could be used to refer to INDIVIDUAL people < 1261799547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when when there are multiple Johns < 1261799552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, the same way that we distinguish between different senses of a word like "set"? < 1261799572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but there are probably multiple words "set"! < 1261799581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because they sound the same doesnt mean theyre the same word, keep in mind < 1261799582 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would we call those multiple words? < 1261799586 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1261799596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"set" like a movie set < 1261799604 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"set" like what you do to a variable < 1261799610 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably different words < 1261799614 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like to define words by the conjunction of spelling, pronunciation, and etymology. < 1261799615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now maybe you have a smaller kind of difference < 1261799618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mostly the same but not quite" < 1261799635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so now "John" is a single word with multiple subtly different senses < 1261799636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok fine < 1261799643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they have the same spelling, they're pronounced the same way, and their reason for being a word is the same, they're the same word. < 1261799649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now tell me what the representation in your logic is. < 1261799659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, words are like < 1261799667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :words are pairs, at least, of form and sound < 1261799669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261799670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :form and meaning < 1261799674 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what saussure called a Sign < 1261799690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres probably a bit more to it than that < 1261799711 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what you're doing is a lot like asking me for the simplest explanation of a phenomenon. < 1261799717 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i AM, yes < 1261799722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1261799722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look < 1261799737 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seemed to be up to the challenge of giving me pseudocode for this < 1261799739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261799748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if "John" is one word with multiple senses < 1261799752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me pseudocode. < 1261799775 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me pseudocode for "John is dancing" < 1261799789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ignore all the extraneous shit like what the "is" and the "ing" and the tense and shit are doing < 1261799805 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care about that (unless its relevant to your explanation of the pseudocode for "John") < 1261799824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just give me, right now, the pseudocode. < 1261799825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it. < 1261799833 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders. < 1261799862 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person is dancing. That person's name is John. Nothing else I could be referring to is named John. Therefore, I say "John is dancing". < 1261799983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I explain the phenomenon? < 1261800051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope! < 1261800061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the way you'd accept it < 1261800066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you turned "John" into a predicate! < 1261800071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"That person's name is John" < 1261800083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I attempt to explain the right phenomenon? < 1261800083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats what _I_ said < 1261800090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1261800104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you want < 1261800113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just give me the meaning in your pseudocode < 1261800131 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261800141 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ph man, pthing < 1261800149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were talking linguistics < 1261800149 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries again. < 1261800150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardcore like < 1261800156 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might not want to stay D: < 1261800164 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur < 1261800167 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261800175 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'mutha < 1261800193 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the perfect relish to any and all conversations in which augur plays a vital part < 1261800207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mother is the perfect relish? < 1261800214 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261800218 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur < 1261800219 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1261800220 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur < 1261800276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person is dancing. "John" evokes that person. "John" does not evoke anything else. Q.E.D. < 1261800280 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1261800297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person is dancing. "John" evokes that person. "John" does not evoke anything else. I want to use a word that evokes only that person. Q.E.D. < 1261800312 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is your pseudocode? < 1261800323 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1261800336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does not do what you said! < 1261800348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, rather, it does not do what you wanted it to do < 1261800379 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given the statement I just made, one can conclude that I will use the word "John" to refer to the dancing person. < 1261800389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that, the word "John" here surely maps to "'John' evokes that person. 'John' does not evoke anything else." < 1261800403 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and minimally also, < 1261800411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a person" < 1261800427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is to say, the word john maybe denotes a particular person < 1261800470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the majority of the words contribution, infact, ALL of the contribution of the words distinguishing feature (being written 'John' instead of 'Mary') is NOT the particular person < 1261800471 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather < 1261800493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'"John" evokes that person. "John" does not evoke anything else. I want to use a word that evokes only that person.' < 1261800508 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see what i mean? < 1261800514 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1261800530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, even 'a person' doesnt do what you want unless we interpret it to be some atomic element that means that person < 1261800536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing is nothing but a giant quantifier! < 1261800565 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A person that is called John who is the only person in this context that could intend... is dancing" < 1261800573 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, thats pretty much what i said earlier. :) < 1261800576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about we ask a different question, like... < 1261800628 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could an intelligent computer represent the sentence "John is dancing"? < 1261800636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1261800638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you want < 1261800641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care how you do it < 1261800644 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just give me pseudocode. < 1261800660 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. < 1261800747 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IsDancing(JohnThePizzaDeliveryGuy) < 1261800755 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Look, suggestively-named Lisp tokens!) < 1261800767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats the literal meaning of "John"? < 1261800816 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, presumably, this computer knows some things that are related to each other, and has chosen this label the relation JohnThePizzaDeliveryGuy. < 1261800825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure sure ok < 1261800844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then this computer will always-and-forever interpret "John" as JohnThePizzaDeliveryGuy < 1261800870 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's further reason that the computer interprets "John" as this token. < 1261800881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well then, you havent given me the literal meaning! < 1261800887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't? < 1261800899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youve given me a meaning that has some interpretation of meaning already in it < 1261800920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like this has turned into a discussion of rationality, which makes me want to take it to #lesswrong, our rationality channel. < 1261800941 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, if we did that, thered be no convo here < 1261800958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it was quiet until gracenotes and i moved the convo here from proggit < 1261800968 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was here originally < 1261800979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure but we werent talking about esolangs then :D < 1261800989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were talking aboud proggitty things < 1261800996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, maybe #lesswrong < 1261801012 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a name for your PL, you get a *free* freenode channel for it! < 1261801015 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy that < 1261801032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed! < 1261801036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence #antigravity! :D < 1261801048 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1261801090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do < 1261801096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont go there anymore since i was bored of it < 1261801557 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite so < 1261801599 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, I'm going to get one of the delicious melted mint chocolate kiss sugar cookies my mom made < 1261802853 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261803978 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261804751 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261804766 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2009/12/26/conditional-binding-with-let-in-magpie/ Interesting control structure. < 1261804825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1261804830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should write a similar tutorial in ruby < 1261804847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's interesting about it < 1261804853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if value = "1234".to_i then ... else puts "Couldn't parse string." end < 1261804868 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO AMAZING < 1261804948 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hate to be a detractor but afaict it's like a bad version of do notation? < 1261804965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is a bad version of do notation < 1261805017 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well, actually ruby wont do it correctly because ruby defaults to 0 if the string starts with a letter, but... < 1261805356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: did you hear about my awesome idea for an esolang? < 1261805555 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Your snippet was nothing like the actual construct. < 1261805565 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ey? < 1261805594 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird am I missing something or were you being sarcastic? < 1261805622 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Just because a concept is reducible to another concept does not mean it is inferior. < 1261805635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1261805639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: what are you talking about < 1261805642 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree and I didn't mean to suggest that < 1261805643 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He acks the prior art at the end of the post. < 1261805648 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humblest apologies bro < 1261805653 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: His do notation remark < 1261805665 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Apologies for what? < 1261805665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261805667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1261805676 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for implying that < 1261805695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you're talking about ehird. < 1261806669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261806677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see my ideas for an esolang, ehird? < 1261806714 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get what's interesting about the language construct... < 1261806737 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically the same as try/catch < 1261806748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree, its nothing amazing < 1261806755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its useful i suppose? < 1261806768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not more useful or less useful than existing ocnstructs, say.. < 1261806769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1261807104 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261807602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261807613 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261808307 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261808387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That conditional binding thing sounds exactly like Haskell's 'maybe', which is a defined function, not a language feature. < 1261808442 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the author said so. < 1261808469 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yeah doesn't seem to be anything interesting about it not sure what ehird was meaning < 1261808888 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i... < 1261808892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygle < 1261808925 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sleepy any more? >.>] < 1261808928 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/]// < 1261808931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i think i just made a translation routing from the semantics of functional language to prolog to my esolang < 1261808937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :routine** < 1261808942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unintentionally < 1261808959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, neat. < 1261809241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first [1] -> first 1:[] -> first (List 1 []) -> first(s,l,w) && list(l,1,[]) -> first(s) && P0(s,l) && P1(s,w) && list(l) && P0(l,1) && P1(l,[]) < 1261809255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with closures: < 1261809262 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261809326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Es[first(s) && P1(s,w) && El:list(l)[P0(s,l) && P0(l,1) && P1(l,[])]]] < 1261809374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd define, in your code, Ww[Es[first(s) && P1(s,w) && El:list(l)[P0(s,1) && P0(l,x)]] = x < 1261809398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats how you define functions :X < 1261809459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261809461 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should really be < 1261809478 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ww[Es:FIRST[P1(s,w) && El:LIST[P0(s,1) && P0(l,x)]] = x < 1261809690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the translation should actually be Ww[Es:FIRST[El:LIST[P0(s,l) && P1(l,1) && P0(l,[])] && P1(s,w)]] sorry < 1261809767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHATCHU THINK SON < 1261811964 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261813050 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur what's W? < 1261813068 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess E is exists, W is forall? < 1261813074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an operator that essentially says "for which w is it true that ..." < 1261813082 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1261813087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like < 1261813095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wn[1 + 1 = n] => 2 < 1261813118 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I get it, but what abouft Wn[n*n = 4], multivalued? < 1261813647 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know curry has a backend that compiles to prolog? < 1261813692 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261813715 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261813767 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261813865 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261814399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261814400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261814737 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder what structures you can decide W for..? < 1261814764 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably only really trivial stuff like finite sets < 1261815194 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: yes, Wn[n*n = 4] would be multiply valued < 1261815205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it would be like asking that question in prolog < 1261815211 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?- x*x = 4. < 1261815211 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1261815232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = 2. < 1261815235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = -2. < 1261815856 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W with + and * is TC isn't it? you can define 0 = Wn[n+n=n] but I can't see how to define 1 without (.. & ~n = 0) or using A < 1261815870 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on natural numbers) < 1261816400 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so irritating that you can't define 1... < 1261816525 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 = Wn[n+n=n], 1 = W[n+n=n*n], ~0=1 < 1261816596 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prime = Wp[En[Em[nm=p]]] < 1261816609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1261816614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldnt define shit like that < 1261816616 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though that includes 1 and 0 < 1261816627 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would just start by defining succ and shit < 1261816682 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wn[succ {} == n] = {{}} < 1261816736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am[Wn[succ m == n] = {m}] < 1261816781 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do A and W commute? < 1261816812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261816824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, this is not a proper quantifier < 1261816829 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldnt even say it like that < 1261816834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a quantifier over rules < 1261816839 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i should just use variables < 1261816852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wn[succ M == n] == {M} < 1261816856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := {M} ** < 1261816857 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is stronger than TC I think < 1261816949 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can immediately solve all diophantine equations < 1261816955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its not < 1261816960 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261816961 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just prolog < 1261816969 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in theory < 1261816970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261816973 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let me clarify < 1261816975 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like definabilify < 1261816994 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just quantified predicate calculus < 1261817013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using what is essentially a prolog base interpreter < 1261817024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the algo to interpret it < 1261817042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logics are "turing complete", algorithms that calculate logics are < 1261817075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existential and universal quantifiers dont quantify over actual things, they're actually sort of more like assertions < 1261817118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you say Ex[F(x)] in this language, you're essentially specifying an axiom in a logic < 1261817130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the axiom being < 1261817135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- Ex[F(x)]. < 1261817151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where :- is the logic turnstile operator < 1261817156 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1261817164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which says, "anything can prove that Ex[F(x)]" < 1261817202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you can use it whenever you want and its guaranteed to be true. < 1261817203 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about it as a (paradoxically strong) language for computing sets < 1261817233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really, in this "logic", using Ex[F(x)] in a truth conditional statement is always acceptable < 1261817257 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know twelf? < 1261817258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, the expression [1] is equivalent to El[list(l) && p0(l,1) && p1(l,[])] < 1261817263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twelf, no. < 1261817267 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1261817279 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to ask, is it like twelf? :p < 1261817282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261817304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is me attempting to design a proglang that has the compositional semantics system of natural language. < 1261817355 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1261817356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in natural language, Ex[F(x)] is a normal truth-functional quantifier, not an assertion. < 1261817372 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not totally sure what that means but I think my book gets into this later on < 1261817372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe. :) < 1261817390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it means is that ive got some crazy shit in this language im designing :D < 1261817436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its got a transformational grammar < 1261817461 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-149-220.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261817472 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that, to the extent that you can define generic functions, they will, almost inevitably, result in a rearrangement of the code < 1261817569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that if you type lets say "1 == this 1", where "this 1" is the function \p.p(1) < 1261817582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== doesnt take functions as its right hand argument < 1261817601 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the right hand argument does take Int -> Bool's < 1261817620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you shift "this 1" to the front and turn the rest into a big lambda: < 1261817639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this 1 (\x.1 == x) < 1261817659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and infact both of these are valid in the language < 1261817683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, even "this 1 (1 ==) is valid in the language, in a kind of haskellish fashion < 1261817696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the means of generating it are more interesting :P < 1261817758 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really see what's going here: What is 'this' and is 1 just an arbitrary symbol < 1261817770 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261817774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 is the value 1 < 1261817775 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't anaphora resolution is it? < 1261817782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the function \x.\p.p(x) < 1261818471 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1261818729 0 :neuDialect!n=IceChat7@ip-85-161-90-41.eurotel.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1261818924 0 :neuDialect!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261819526 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl < 1261819530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1261819537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check it out < 1261819544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MoveHaskell < 1261819549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MoveHaskell? < 1261819567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a derivative of haskell with one very simple extra piece of functionality < 1261819574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an expression < 1261819584 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (g (... h)) < 1261819609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is equivalent to (f . g . ...) h < 1261819622 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where (f . g . ...) :: a -> b < 1261819629 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and h is of type (a -> b) -> c < 1261819649 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you didn't mix those types up? < 1261819651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can turn the expression into h (f . g . ...) < 1261819653 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, im sure :) < 1261819665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is < 1261819669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a type mismatch situation < 1261819671 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the argument < 1261819683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like it should be the function for some higher chain of args < 1261819698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the chain looks like it should be the argument of the actual argument < 1261819703 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can reverse them < 1261819705 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the simplest case < 1261819726 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. That looks difficult to implement and not necessarily useful. < 1261819728 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f g where f :: a -> b, g :: (a -> b) -> c < 1261819734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a type mismatch < 1261819738 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wouldnt be if it were g f < 1261819740 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so make it g f < 1261819767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you can do shit like, say < 1261819806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a" ++ "b" ++ "c" == which ["foo", "abc", "bar"] < 1261819810 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> 1 < 1261819851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the simplest case is all you need to solve since the rest just pops out of it by iterated Move < 1261819876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, i guess, is something like indexOf or whatever < 1261819927 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it functions like it, but is a wh word for ese of understanding < 1261820062 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261820517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261820533 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my exxample was bad, because ++ is left associative and so ruins things < 1261820535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1261820591 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ["foo", "abc", "bar"] == "abc" is just the same < 1261820676 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261820722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted to give an example where the shit before "which" couldnt be used wrapped in ()'s and have it work < 1261820731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261820754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi; which lang is this? < 1261820757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ["foo"] == "f" ++ "b" ++ "c" i think exemplefies this < 1261820761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: MoveHaskell! < 1261820777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eso? < 1261820782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slight mod to haskell. < 1261820787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incredibly minor, infact. < 1261820802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type mismatches of a certain sort are resolvable < 1261820823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261820834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in this example < 1261820850 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ["foo"] :: String -> Int < 1261820870 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it cant find that as its next arg < 1261820899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the interpreter replaces which ["foo"] with a temporary unbound variable x :: String < 1261820917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving x == ... < 1261820972 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually sorry, which ["foo"] should really be more like (String -> Bool) -> Int < 1261820994 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it turns out that (x == ...) :: (String -> Bool) -> Int < 1261821016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interp lambda binds x and feeds the result in as the argument to which ["foo"] < 1261821114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: merp? < 1261821162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(string -> bool) -> int is a weird typesig < 1261821189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261821192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type sig is really < 1261821199 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird? < 1261821209 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261821209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which :: forall a. [a] -> (a -> Bool) -> Int < 1261821222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its essentially just firstIndexOf < 1261821235 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except with a test function instead of a value < 1261821266 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.List.findIndex :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe Int < 1261821282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what < 1261821284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you :| < 1261821308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so which = findIndex < 1261821324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :findIndex ["foo", "bar", "baz"] == "foo" < 1261821334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats ugly, hence the rename to which :P < 1261821481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its cool tho, because you can do craaazy shit < 1261821487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1261821488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261821501 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, anything where you'd normally do < 1261821518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f \x -> ... < 1261821528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can turn that into ...f... < 1261821546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming theres only one occurance of x in ... < 1261821552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno about multiple occurances < 1261821560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe thered be another rule for that :p < 1261821568 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a more general rule < 1261821588 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes me think of shift/reset < 1261821603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f \x -> ...x...x...x... -> ...f... ... ... < 1261821606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261821611 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's hinting toward some of cc shans notes on linguisticd < 1261821662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could end up doing: which xs f && g && h < 1261821686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like say < 1261821700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which [1,2,3,4] > 1 && < 5 && odd < 1261821771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are missing vars in... < 1261821786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which _ [1,2,3,4] _ > 1 && _ < 5 && odd _ < 1261821810 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it goes through building up \x -> x > 1 && x < 5 && odd x < 1261821899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also builds up \f -> which f [1,2,3,4] < 1261821953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, im not sure how it'd do that, so lets pretend its which [1,2,3,4] f not which f [1,2,3,4] < 1261821979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive never understood why they put the xs last in all these functions < 1261821992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map f xs, foldr f z xs < 1261821994 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so annoying < 1261822030 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess maybe you have more curried (map f) and (foldr f z) than you do (map xs) and (foldr xs z) < 1261823010 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.17.173.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261823013 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join #jbopre < 1261823021 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit! < 1261823022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MigoMipo: missing slash < 1261823038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1261823046 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning! < 1261823078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see /msg < 1261823193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how suspend to ram/disk interacts with cron jobs < 1261823212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if some cron job is running right then < 1261823297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why is my dns so slow suddenly < 1261823310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow = takes several seconds to resolve anything < 1261823368 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261823382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it gets suspended and restarted just like any other process < 1261823387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261823403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about missed cron jobs? < 1261823408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what I mean < 1261823415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they never get run do they < 1261823427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on which cron implementation you have < 1261823436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, vixie-cron here < 1261823446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have anacron here, which runs them when it gets round to them < 1261823454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, late rather than never < 1261823460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's unusual in that respect < 1261823460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anacron needs normal cron to run it iirc < 1261823470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can only handle once per day stuff < 1261823508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh another cron question: how does cron handle with leap seconds. < 1261823571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would run on :59, surely, if that's what the seconds field said? < 1261823577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and :00 if /that's/ what the second's field said? < 1261823590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, no differently from normal < 1261823664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm does cron do local time or utc? < 1261823694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure offhand < 1261823695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if local time, how does it handle switch to/from daylight saving < 1261823703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forgot which one leaps back an hour < 1261823714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, all you need is a VM and an insane ntp server < 1261823717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can find out by experiment < 1261823805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure where to find an insane ntp server ;P < 1261823824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually all I need is a VM without time syncing. < 1261823830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can set it manually in there < 1261823859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not THAT interested < 1261823923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it wrong that I always try to think up the most insane non-destructive solution to stuff, when I'm in here? < 1261823924 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261823926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw about that language on the wiki we talked about a few days ago, using two different interpreters. do you remember it's name? < 1261823931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an idea for it you see < 1261823942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dupdog? < 1261823945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes thanks < 1261823946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't really two different interps < 1261823951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just alternate commands are interpreted with different meanings < 1261823968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, semantics of a command depend on whether an even or an odd number of commands were executed before it < 1261823976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea is not to prove it tc by implementing something in it, my idea is to prove it not tc by implementing it in a sub-tc language < 1261823980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that be worth a try? < 1261824004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1261824011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the standard methods to prove something sub-tc < 1261824016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, what would be a good language for it < 1261824016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261824046 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want vapourware unreleased languages that I've never told the channel about, you could try ACK < 1261824068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a vague attempt to make a language that's powerful enough to do pretty much anything sub-TC you'd want to do, but isn't TC < 1261824068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge93 won't do, since I would need to store the source somewhere < 1261824079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it clearly has infinite storage, is the issue < 1261824090 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sub-TC things with infinite storage are kind-of rare < 1261824101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ACK such a language? < 1261824107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try to implement it in Splinter, I suppose < 1261824125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not exactly, basically you have to calculate how much storage you're going to use in advance < 1261824125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads the splinter page < 1261824132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's hard to see how to do that for dupdog < 1261824162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(splinter's a push-down automaton) < 1261824186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm "push-down automaton". what exactly can it do that a FSM can't? < 1261824189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PDAs are bad at duplicating unboundedly large values, though < 1261824196 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: matching brackets is the most famous example < 1261824201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261824206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a PDA can match to any depth of nesting, an FSM has to have some limit < 1261824459 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PDA can't match a^nb^nc^n? < 1261824548 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is correct. < 1261824570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, as a literal string? regex? < 1261824580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't find any meaning in that line < 1261824583 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{,abc,aabbcc,aaabbbccc,...} < 1261824588 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, there are a small class of languages which can match a^n b^n c^n trivially, but cant match certain context free languages < 1261824606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, ah, how would you write that as PCRE? < 1261824608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is** < 1261824635 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster might take me a few hours to figure that out :p < 1261824657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I strongly suspects PCRE might be TC < 1261824681 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google books is such a tease < 1261824694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has recursion and what not after all < 1261824966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you explain how that PDA proof works? < 1261824985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be: N{N{N{}}I}Z{B{B{A{}}A{ZBAI}}A{O{ZBAO}I{ZBAI}N}}ZA\ < 1261824990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(followed by a newline) < 1261825011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try stepping through it in an interpreter < 1261825061 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is: you can compile a program that uses n splinters into a program that uses only a limited number by having a large object holding all of them, and a method to step through it < 1261825073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then store things on the call stack Underload-style < 1261825099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261825170 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261825177 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261825195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pda-splinter.pl: Lisp/Scheme program text < 1261825201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file gone crazy heh < 1261825428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what about implementing dupdog in that PDA language and then using the PDA->splinter compiler? would that be easier or harder than splinter directly do you think? < 1261825438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1261825852 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah I can't figure it out < 1261826039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, can't figure what out? < 1261826045 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the regex < 1261826053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, ah < 1261826058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I suspect it is possible < 1261826090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, meh, I can't think of a way to do it it either the PDA language or splinter directly < 1261826102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect dupdog can't be done by a PDA < 1261826105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I guess the issue is understanding splinter < 1261826108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, ofc, that doesn't mean it's TC < 1261826116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is there between a PDA and TC? < 1261826176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBA, but that only really works if you have a concept of input < 1261826181 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a whole load of classes that don't have their own names < 1261826185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they don't come up very often < 1261826193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are infinitely many classes, after all) < 1261826248 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stanford.edu/~laurik/fsmbook/examples/Einstein%27sPuzzle.html < 1261826251 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever < 1261826261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but dupdog doesn't have stdin? < 1261826282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also which one is LBA? < 1261826283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: exactly, which is why LBA doesn't even make any sense wrt dupdog < 1261826287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear-bounded automaton < 1261826291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261826299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no hits on the wiki < 1261826340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh why did searching for LBA not find http://esolangs.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton < 1261826341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1261826365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no redirect, you can add one if you like < 1261826375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediawiki default search tends to rely a lot on human help < 1261826381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261827625 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1261827635 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261828531 0 :|MigoMipo|!i=kvirc@95.209.203.251.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261829440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just had an interesting idea < 1261829496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :protons are functions from electrons to 1 < 1261829573 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. p = \e -> 1 :: Electron -> Int < 1261829599 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concatenation of protons as in p0^p1 is sort of like fold: < 1261829608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forked fold? who knows < 1261829692 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p0^p1 = \x -> \y -> p1 x + p0 y < 1261829695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1261829745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.. < 1261829754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe it should track charge not charge-balances.. < 1261829835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm hm < 1261829843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously im sleep deprived :D < 1261829863 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261830058 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261830396 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261831034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261831041 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm! < 1261831090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, BNF? < 1261831095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1261831099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> e.g. p = \e -> 1 :: Electron -> Int < 1261831103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261831105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad haskell < 1261831107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261831122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it would have been heavily modified bnf < 1261831220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261831224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not bnf < 1261831237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know haskell < 1261831243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been planning to learn it < 1261831245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never had time < 1261831256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never found a nice tutorial that extended into the depths too < 1261831263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heres haskell in a micosecond: < 1261831271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math f(x) is haskell f x < 1261831273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to haskell < 1261831275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261831281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I'm pretty sure there is more than that < 1261831286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the monads and what not < 1261831294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, also, what about f(x,y) < 1261831299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shh! you'll wake the ehird! < 1261831305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x y < 1261831314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261831324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions are all monadic in haskell < 1261831326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, then f(g(x),y) < 1261831326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardcore LC < 1261831329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f(g,x,y) < 1261831332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do they differ < 1261831336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (g x) y < 1261831339 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f g x y < 1261831341 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions are all monadic in haskell ??? < 1261831341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's lisp now < 1261831349 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh like J monadic < 1261831351 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I got it < 1261831352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, its just bracketted when need-be < 1261831352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not fully < 1261831364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not all functions are monadic in haskell < 1261831370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you get that idea < 1261831374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, is addition + x y < 1261831375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too? < 1261831378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261831380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1261831381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sugared to x + y < 1261831389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can do it that way if you want: (+) x y < 1261831394 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261831395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"huh" < 1261831402 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.203.251.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261831404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what about all those type things and such < 1261831416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, haskell has sugar for operators right < 1261831421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1261831422 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but operators are still just functions < 1261831426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you want to get the function < 1261831431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stick it in parens to "call" it on nothing < 1261831435 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, return just the function < 1261831438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, but (+ x y) wouldn't work? < 1261831441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now its the function, not the operator < 1261831442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1261831445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261831451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+) x y < 1261831458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((+) x y) ? < 1261831460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. < 1261831476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho that might also be interpretable as a tuple with one elemtn < 1261831485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure how haskell disambiguates these things < 1261831497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I suspect that by mixing the prefix and infix notations it is possible to create something that makes IOCCC seem quite sane and easy to read < 1261831500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a hunch < 1261831521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have no clue < 1261831524 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets far far worse < 1261831528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1261831556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, anyway, what is all the stuff about types and such. < 1261831557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because haskell can be highly pointsfree < 1261831563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types < 1261831563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1261831565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointsfree? < 1261831568 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261831571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tacit < 1261831577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles < 1261831580 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like J again < 1261831587 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f . g = \x.f (g x) < 1261831587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, which I don't know < 1261831597 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's too bad J is fantastic < 1261831603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know erlang, lisp, C, bash, and a few other languages < 1261831603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: im really surprised < 1261831606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youve been here longer than me < 1261831609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like python) < 1261831610 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i know of J < 1261831611 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmon < 1261831614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont be a slacker < 1261831616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261831619 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so with haskell < 1261831621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say < 1261831624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x = x + 1 < 1261831630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261831632 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then f has the type Int -> Int < 1261831633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems easy enough < 1261831638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, makes sense < 1261831639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261831641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1261831645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, why can't x be a float < 1261831654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any other numeric type < 1261831660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 1 has the type Int < 1261831663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.0 has the type Float < 1261831664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1261831665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. < 1261831668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261831669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261831671 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to convert i guess < 1261831677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261831686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x = x + 1 is desugard to f = \x -> x + 1 < 1261831696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261831700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so the type looks like whats on either side < 1261831702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is an Int < 1261831707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the \ signify? < 1261831708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (x + 1) is an Int too < 1261831722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x y = x + y is desugared to \x -> \y -> x + 1 < 1261831730 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261831731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + y** < 1261831735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is Int -> (Int -> Int) < 1261831745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1261831749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x is an Int and \y -> x + 1 is an Int -> Int < 1261831790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly do you mean by -> here? < 1261831803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X -> Y ~ "Take and X and return a Y" < 1261831811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261831822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this were an untyped lambda calculus < 1261831830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x -> \y -> x + y is trivially obvious, right < 1261831833 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply it to the number 2 < 1261831834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get < 1261831835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why isn't f x y = x + y "takes 2 integers and returns one" < 1261831838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\y -> 2 + y < 1261831844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261831852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why, because haskell is lambda calculus. < 1261831854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with types. < 1261831855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fun. < 1261831856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so it returns a lambda that takes the other parameter? < 1261831860 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261831869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261831870 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence the following is completely valid haskell: < 1261831871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 2 < 1261831876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 2 == \y -> 2 + y < 1261831889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it returns an "add 2" function < 1261831891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1261831895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. < 1261831922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so what about functions/operators like + - and such that can take various types < 1261831931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does haskell have separate + operator for ints and floats? < 1261831937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a* < 1261831943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, so theres type polymorphism right < 1261831946 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1261831948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1261831951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might have the function < 1261831959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x = [x] < 1261831963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261831964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, lists are typed in haskell < 1261831965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1261831969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprise surprise < 1261831972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] being list? right < 1261831976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists are polymorphically typed < 1261831979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so theyre like < 1261831985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists of whatever type you give it < 1261831992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f x is also polymorphic < 1261831999 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is its type specifically? < 1261832001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, like list of foo? well okay < 1261832006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: forall a. a -> [a] < 1261832007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where foo can vary < 1261832022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where [a] is the sugar for list of a's < 1261832028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what does the "a. a" bit mean. < 1261832033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1261832036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the . there mean < 1261832037 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a. a doesnt mean anything :P < 1261832045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a -> [a] < 1261832045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :means < 1261832046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, okay how should one parse that bit then < 1261832067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all types a, f can be a -> [a] < 1261832086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you give f an int < 1261832094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f is behaving like its of type Int -> [Int] < 1261832104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give it a string and its behaving like its of type String -> [String] < 1261832105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1261832106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1261832116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ALL types a, f can behave like a -> [a] < 1261832122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261832123 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, f :: forall a. a -> [a] < 1261832141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so this is not exactly the same as predicate logic †then? < 1261832148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261832151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and no < 1261832159 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're doing a typed lambda calculus < 1261832163 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same procnounciation < 1261832164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a quantifier over types < 1261832172 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a quantifier over values < 1261832177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String -> [String] <-- is that a list of 1 or more strings? < 1261832181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 0 or more strings < 1261832186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0-or-more < 1261832188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261832192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list [] is of type < 1261832196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a -> [a] < 1261832210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a] just means "a list of a's" < 1261832217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a list of no a's is still a list of a's < 1261832219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1261832225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well [] being of any type makes sense. After all the empty set is a subset of every other set < 1261832234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, as for polymorphisms < 1261832243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general < 1261832256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you can have multiple functions with the same name < 1261832263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as they have different type signatures < 1261832266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you could define < 1261832268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261832286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+) :: Int -> Int -> Int < 1261832287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also < 1261832292 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+) :: Float -> Float -> Float < 1261832293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1261832295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, couldn't there be some confusion about which one to use in certain cases? If there are implicit casts available in haskell? < 1261832302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there isn't I can't imagine it being an issue < 1261832308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i dont think there are implicit casts, so < 1261832327 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there are. hah. < 1261832330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261832334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the compiler is smart < 1261832344 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rounds down to the most applicable type < 1261832345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261832373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it seems that haskell has a generic type class Num < 1261832376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can still imagining that being an issue sometimes < 1261832383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Int and Float are both Nums < 1261832395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so the types form a hierarchy? sensible < 1261832408 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (+) is required to be of type (Num a) => a -> a -> a < 1261832420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261832429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where (Num a) => ... just means sort of < 1261832440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all types a, which are of the typeclass Num, a -> a -> a < 1261832457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, btw, couldn't you pass a tuple or such to make a function take two arguments (instead of returning a lambda) < 1261832470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1261832491 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then its a 1-arg function that requires a 2-tuple < 1261832496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, also that leaves some interesting related questions: how you build and take apart tuples < 1261832497 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has pattern matching over the tuple < 1261832498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like < 1261832502 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (x,y) = x + y < 1261832503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, how do I get the second member of a tuple < 1261832505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1261832506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is fine < 1261832513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you cant then do f 1 < 1261832517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 1 is not a 2-tuple < 1261832520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so similar to pattern matching? < 1261832530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the erlang sense of that) < 1261832531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its pattern matched, yes. < 1261832536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261832541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but shallowly < 1261832545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261832548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you mean < 1261832554 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can, for instance, do < 1261832566 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first x:xs = x < 1261832577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first x:xs would mean? < 1261832584 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, x:xs is cons < 1261832586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261832592 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cons pair < 1261832595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its sugar for roughly < 1261832597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cons x xs < 1261832602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, and what are the car and cdr functions? < 1261832616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where Cons is a data constructor < 1261832626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I know scheme :P < 1261832633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no < 1261832636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont mean its a cons function < 1261832641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh= < 1261832642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a special thing < 1261832644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/?/ < 1261832645 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a data constructor < 1261832651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1261832660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, is it like erlang's [H|T] then? < 1261832662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it forms the basis of the ASTs in haskell < 1261832665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea sure < 1261832672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets pretend its that < 1261832673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not, but < 1261832673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, on the left or the right side of = ? < 1261832675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261832679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1261832685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people dont usually use car and cdr < 1261832693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they can just match them out < 1261832702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd never define first = car < 1261832704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just do < 1261832705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like erlang's [H|T] then for head/tail < 1261832713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first x:xs = x < 1261832720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261832738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, xs being a variable name that isn't used I guess? < 1261832747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be the cdr I imagine? < 1261832752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1261832753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261832761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1261832764 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just like < 1261832767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type 1 : [] < 1261832768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the compiler warn about unused variable then? < 1261832772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this conses together 1 and [] < 1261832775 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to give you [1] < 1261832788 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 : 2 : [] = 1 : [2] = [1,2] < 1261832793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type being a keyword to define a type? < 1261832802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no < 1261832806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1261832807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you type 1 : [] < 1261832808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261832816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it wasn't part of the code, heh sorry < 1261832828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261832835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill use > on newlines < 1261832839 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since lambdabot isnt here < 1261832842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261832844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 : [] < 1261832845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1] < 1261832856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1 : 2 : [] < 1261832857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2] < 1261832863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261832881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let first x:xs = x in first [1,2,3] < 1261832882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1261832893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let rest x:xs = xs in rest [1,2,3] < 1261832895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2,3] < 1261832916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so 1 : 2 : [] is (cons 1 (cons 2 '())) ? < 1261832920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is because [1,2,3] is really really just sugar for 1:2:[] < 1261832926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1261832932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sensible < 1261832934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261832936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1:2:3:[] < 1261832942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you are insisting on infix ;P) < 1261832944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: being right associative < 1261832954 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1261832965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we were using prefixing: < 1261832983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2,3] is sugar for (:) 1 ((:) 2 ((:) 3 [])) < 1261832985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261832986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are going to prefix you might as well use lisp instead ;P < 1261832993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if we were using the List monad: < 1261833000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2,3] is sugar for uh < 1261833008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :List 1 (List 2 (List 3 [])) < 1261833011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now we come to "monad"... now what on earth is that exactly? < 1261833016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noone knows < 1261833022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no im kidding < 1261833027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monad is a type class < 1261833037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Int or Num? < 1261833041 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1261833044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Num < 1261833050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int is an instance of the type class Num < 1261833052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1261833067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as an instance of the Monad type class < 1261833070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so you can only have 2 layers then? type class and type? < 1261833076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can type classes inherit each other < 1261833079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so < 1261833086 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you only get types and type classes < 1261833088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261833089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261833095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you just multi-class a type < 1261833099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261833106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so monad is a type class < 1261833107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261833116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on an instance of Monad you can (must?) have defined certain functions < 1261833126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense. < 1261833129 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the three are >>=, return, and ... maybe thats it? < 1261833147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... being an operator?? < 1261833154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no sorry :p < 1261833155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or function I guess < 1261833158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>= and return < 1261833160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261833166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the only functions. < 1261833176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those do what < 1261833189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and where does IO and state come into this) < 1261833196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, theyre, by convention, required to follow certain rules < 1261833198 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely < 1261833209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(return a) >> k == k a < 1261833218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m >>= return == m < 1261833222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm >> ? < 1261833232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xs >>= (return . f) == fmap f xs < 1261833248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x >>= (\x -> (k x) >>= h) == (m >>= k) >>= h < 1261833264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the facts that must hold of >>= and return < 1261833281 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i say must, i mean "by convention of what a monad is" < 1261833291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can violate them, but dont expect your code to behave monadically < 1261833291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, writing those in English would help, I'm not very used to the multitude of use of punctuation that haskell uses (possibly even exceeding perl at that!) < 1261833299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261833301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well look < 1261833305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>= is just an operator right < 1261833308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261833310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like + or % < 1261833318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I'm okay with that < 1261833322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (return a) >>= k == k a < 1261833343 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :means that (return a) >>= k must return the same value as k a < 1261833347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261833354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the >> instead of >>= was a typo? < 1261833359 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, obviously. < 1261833360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1261833364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains a bit < 1261833364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. is the compose operator < 1261833366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defined as < 1261833376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, okay, I'm more used to seeing the compose operator as a mid dot < 1261833378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also which way is it < 1261833379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f . g = \x -> f (g x) < 1261833383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261833392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. IS a mid dot < 1261833395 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ascii-ish :P < 1261833402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I have seem f <mid dot> g mean g(f(x)) somewhere < 1261833408 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261833409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in math < 1261833414 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but haskell isnt APL < 1261833416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so. < 1261833420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, yes, which is where I have seen the mid dot! < 1261833442 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f o g in SML < 1261833447 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ring < 1261833453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so those are the monad laws < 1261833467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats what defines a monad < 1261833468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what is fmap? < 1261833478 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a functor map < 1261833486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh you lost me there < 1261833500 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define fmap usint >>= and return < 1261833500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it related to maping a lambda over a list in any way? < 1261833513 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if m = [] then it is the list map < 1261833525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261833525 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap is i think probably somethat you can think of as like < 1261833538 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a monad-specific definable version of map < 1261833545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a generic map over lists as well as other types? < 1261833566 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, are monads all Functors? they are right? < 1261833581 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1261833590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then where does state and IO come into monads? < 1261833594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, monads are all Functors, Functor being another type class < 1261833606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so in order to be a Monad you also have to be a Functor which means you have to have fmap defined. < 1261833610 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, another (equivalent) definition of monad is Functor with join and return < 1261833631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which obeys its own set of laws < 1261833637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261833642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely < 1261833658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap id x = x < 1261833658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1261833679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap (f . g) x = fmap f (fmap g x) < 1261833704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO and state who knows. < 1261833734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261833736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the way you do it, afaik, is that like < 1261833756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap takes a lambda and whatever it is to map over? < 1261833763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or how do you mean < 1261833766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just call into existence an IO monad, itll sort of be the same monad every time. < 1261833777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you pipe an IO monad through some magic functions < 1261833779 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap f m = do x <- m ; return (f x) < 1261833783 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get new IO monads < 1261833790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, sounds like black compiler magic to me... < 1261833793 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1261833798 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1261833806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is basically that the monads you're getting back are not the SAME monad you put in < 1261833812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore can be different < 1261833816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, and why is that important? < 1261833828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, because it provides the illusion of purity < 1261833836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261833844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you just called forth an IO monad from nothing < 1261833847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and assigned it to x < 1261833857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you did some shit with it, printing a line to the screen < 1261833858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, how is this better than just making most of your code pure and having a tiny bit with all the unpure stuff < 1261833865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus getting back a new monad that you assign to y < 1261833869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you commonly do in scheme or erlang for example < 1261833895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you then tried to print to the screen again using x, i think nothing would happen on screen < 1261833903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, hm okay < 1261833904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(im not entirely sure on this; i dont do this IO shit in haskell :P) < 1261833911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead you'd have to use the monad stored in y < 1261833922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, how do you then get the result from your computation back? ;P < 1261833928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd keep chaining together the monads you get back from previous IO function calls < 1261833930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always using the REPL? < 1261833940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right so input is sort of the same, right < 1261833947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261833955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ask the monad stored in y, now, for an input < 1261833968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itll give you back a string paired with a new IO monad i think < 1261833972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1261833975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new monad you can do shit with however you want < 1261833981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ask y for input AGAIN < 1261833986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get back the same string-monad pair as before < 1261833995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt go ask the user for input again < 1261834001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I sure hope haskell's GC is good then < 1261834014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im fairly certain that its spot on < 1261834016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it sounds like reading a file would take an awful lot of memory < 1261834033 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, i think read ops are compiler-internally single operations < 1261834034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hoepfully it shares the string read in question < 1261834040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get back a monad and the content string < 1261834060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said, im not entirely clear on this IO stuff < 1261834063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1261834064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261834070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the state monad then? < 1261834085 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state is more black magic < 1261834094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more than IO? hard to imagine < 1261834102 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state isn't black magic at all :( < 1261834104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think its vaguely like a monad that has hash-like magic < 1261834109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1261834113 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is magic, State isn't. < 1261834115 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST vs State < 1261834123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, what is ST and what is State? < 1261834124 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that when you "assign" you're taking a var-binding hash, and deriving a new hash with the "bound" var changed < 1261834139 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you're going from, say, { "x" => 1 } to { "x" => 2 } < 1261834145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm oaky < 1261834146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a purely functional fashion < 1261834146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay* < 1261834151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what is {} here? < 1261834156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you haven't used that above < 1261834159 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing, im just making shit up < 1261834162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261834175 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST means State Thread, it kind of ensures that there's only one "world state" in existence at any time, so you can mutate the world as you please < 1261834180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looked slightly python-dict-ish < 1261834196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its supposed to be ruby-esque but whatever < 1261834215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, well not knowing ruby I guess python was the next best I could manage ;P < 1261834217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know how these magic monads are implemented so, yeah. < 1261834230 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO and ST are implemented in a very similar way :) < 1261834237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261834257 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is elite < 1261834272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, why "thread"? < 1261834294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it actually act like a erlang style of state process. (being a common idiom) < 1261834297 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO is sort of a special instance of ST where the state you're manipulating is... the real world! < 1261834298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its a state monad that threads through your whole program! :P < 1261834310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so not thread as in separate process then? < 1261834317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know :P < 1261834320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1261834320 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a thread in that sense, no. < 1261834323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261834326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think haskell has explicit threading < 1261834351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its lazy and functional, you can spin off arbitrarily many threads in your compiled program < 1261834357 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and im pretty sure it works fine < 1261834363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because using a separate process in erlang is a common idiom to keep the state. basically you send/receive messages to/from that process to access the state < 1261834366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parallelize the shit out of everything < 1261834373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that one just does a tail recursive loop < 1261834377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with it's state as a parameter < 1261834386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing needs to be explicit except, i think, in your compile params < 1261834404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261834412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, well, one issue is where to thread < 1261834430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the compiler is smart enough to figure out where it is an overhead and where it isn't? < 1261834480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1261834489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a heuristic I can't imagine as being 100% fool-proof ;P < 1261834499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1261834500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is lambdabot < 1261834502 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression (x `par` y) sparks the evaluation of x (to weak head normal form) and returns y. Sparks are queued for execution in FIFO order, but are not executed immediately. If the runtime detects that there is an idle CPU, then it may convert a spark into a real thread, and run the new thread on the idle CPU. In this way the available parallelism is spread amongst the real CPUs. < 1261834503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need lambdabot < 1261834517 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/lang-parallel.html < 1261834533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, ah interesting < 1261834537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there you go. < 1261834544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres lambdabot < 1261834545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261834553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I have ghci in a window here < 1261834555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no issue < 1261834602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well still < 1261834613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, does haskell have any sort of macros? In the meaning of lisp macros I mean < 1261834620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think so < 1261834624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1261834637 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not quite as cool as lisp, but it does have template haskell < 1261834651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261834655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres some crazy shit that people do with haskell tho < 1261834660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal, nothing like C++ templates I hope? < 1261834661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow they get reactive programming < 1261834664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is like < 1261834669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the epitome of anti-laziness < 1261834672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming that bites back? < 1261834678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1261834754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, so how would you do something like a memoizing Fibonacci function in haskell? < 1261834773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, one which counds up, not down, and reuses the calculations < 1261834781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't have to calculate everything a lot of times < 1261834785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue < 1261834789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1261834794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably do something stupid like < 1261834798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib n memo = ... < 1261834805 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just carry your memos with you < 1261834826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you'd do a memoized-fib monad < 1261834838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MemFib Int [Int] < 1261834853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use do notation to peel it open < 1261834855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, in scheme I would do it as a tail recursive function < 1261834874 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't get TCO in haskell < 1261834889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do (n, memo) <- mfib (5, []) < 1261834892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1261834894 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Memoization#Memoization_with_recursion :P < 1261834896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, oh? how do you implement something like a main loop then? < 1261834916 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = do ... < 1261834919 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1261834921 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = do ... ; main < 1261834929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, looks like a tail call? < 1261834937 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it's not < 1261834944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal's memoized fib there looks like magic < 1261834946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is it < 1261834946 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is < 1261834949 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is magic. < 1261834965 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can explain the memoization < 1261834968 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want < 1261834974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, to me? or augur ? < 1261834978 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone < 1261834995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the magic of infinite lists and such < 1261835004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, the one Asztal linked seems fairly easy to understand, apart from the !! bit < 1261835008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I have no idea what it means < 1261835038 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"list !! i" picks the i'th element from the list. < 1261835039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, what its doing is defining an infinite list thats calculated over some other infinite list < 1261835042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1261835051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by virtue of it being defined ones, and in terms of itself < 1261835054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1261835078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you go to plug some elements off the list, it just traces back the list, building it up as far as it needs to < 1261835095 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, since it IS the same list, it only ever gets built up once < 1261835097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to say that the variant I thought of in scheme is a lot more sensible, just tail recursion and pass the value of the last calculations along < 1261835109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by built i mean in the interpreter when it tries to evaluate it < 1261835121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thats what you could do in haskell too < 1261835134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you have to explicitly carry this around < 1261835139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1261835147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the one here doesnt let you do tho < 1261835151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is memoize across calls to fib < 1261835154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you did like < 1261835156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1261835157 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib 1000000 < 1261835159 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then did it again < 1261835164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would take the same amount of time < 1261835173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, then I would write it in another way indeed < 1261835182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I needed that < 1261835182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas if you were explicitely carrying it around, you could do like < 1261835204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you could use the ST monad to store it somehow? :D < 1261835206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let (x, memo) = fib 1000000 [] in fib 1000000 memo < 1261835215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably < 1261835219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state monad < 1261835220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1261835224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its magic! < 1261835227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1261835238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is this infinte list stuff about. < 1261835241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd still need the explicit stuff i think < 1261835244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite lists! < 1261835248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok so haskell is lazy, right < 1261835255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt evaluate it unless it needs to < 1261835263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets do the classic infinite list < 1261835264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1261835266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ones = 1:ones < 1261835279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261835282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is fine, because haskell doesnt need to evaluate ones when DEFINING ones < 1261835287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt need to evaluate anything, infact < 1261835291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1261835298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no problems with that idea at all < 1261835302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is all it is then? < 1261835313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can you do more interesting stuff with it? < 1261835313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho i think itll check for scopes < 1261835321 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can do interesting stuff, but it all comes down to that < 1261835328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do first ones < 1261835339 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt need to evaluate ones beyond its first value < 1261835350 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261835358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what about using it to calculate 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+... < 1261835360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you do third ones it then goes through and evals what it needs to eval to get there < 1261835378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so that is probably something like lets see < 1261835390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that go to 1 when the number of elements summed goes to infinity iirc? < 1261835393 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster that's kind of impossible < 1261835398 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261835407 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1261835418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, not in math. I think the limit when n goes towards infinite is 1. Unless I misremember < 1261835428 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, ?? < 1261835433 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell < 1261835440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to say < 1261835441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I meant http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/c/2/ec2190a57b685add5a4e43c3ecfeed94.png < 1261835443 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tha the defintionis < 1261835470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, it would be cool if you could use haskell to do that kind of stuff < 1261835471 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you do sum [1/2,1/4,1/8,..] < 1261835485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you are better off with mathematica or some other CAS < 1261835485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :halves = 1 : map (\x -> x/2) (drop 1 halves) < 1261835491 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i killed ghci doing that < 1261835492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1261835496 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way + can know that the 100th element of that sequence isn't suddenly 62662 < 1261835504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, true. < 1261835517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will get you [1,1/2,1/4,...] < 1261835544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'd just take however many out you want for precision and fold them down < 1261835550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could also do this the smarter way < 1261835551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1261835553 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you defined it in the same way as mathematica you could compute it < 1261835572 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as a series, rather than an infinite sum) < 1261835578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x ** n : n <- [0..]] < 1261835616 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Lose the drop 1 < 1261835620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, | < 1261835625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: but it NEEDS drop 1! < 1261835630 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1261835631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1261835635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only for the infinite loop :-P < 1261835639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a silly person i am < 1261835683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1261835686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the drop 1 mean? < 1261835695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drop 1 x:xs = xs < 1261835703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, atm I'm trying to work out what it would be in mathematica < 1261835706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drop n x:xs = drop n-1 xs < 1261835727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it gives me (pi^2)/6 < 1261835775 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I mean if you represent it symbolically, like Sigma (\n -> Div 1 (Exp 2 n)) then you could write an algorithm to try and solve sums (like mathematica) < 1261835789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, right < 1261835802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, what was that about 1/(1+1/(1+1/... < 1261835813 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1261835818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1261835823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tries to remember the series* < 1261835830 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ones golden ratio < 1261835830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was some rather neat series of infinite divisions < 1261835837 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not what I was talking about < 1261835842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, well true < 1261835853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just jumping to a different thought < 1261835869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it wasn't the golden ratio I meant < 1261835872 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phi = 1/(1+phi) also diverges in haskell :P < 1261835878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, the point was that it added up to exactly 2 < 1261835883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must have been a different one < 1261835896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im going to sleep for a little bite guys < 1261835896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1261835900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a continued fraction of some sort < 1261836151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an infinite one at that) < 1261836346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it was not < 1261836367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 < 1261836370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1261836437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, that adds up to 2 < 1261836443 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1261836447 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.1111111... = 1 < 1261836449 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261836452 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.1111111... = 10 < 1261836459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err? < 1261836464 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary < 1261836467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, oh right < 1261836478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, as a floating point number? < 1261836486 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a real number < 1261836497 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261836504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you mean it would be stored then < 1261836515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if decimal 1.11111... is 10 in binary? < 1261836538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean binary for both? < 1261836541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right yeah < 1261836586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway that sum was Sum[1/2^i, {i, 0, Infinity}] I think < 1261836605 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that mathematica code for it? < 1261836617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, well yes for 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ... < 1261836645 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool does it compute it to 2? < 1261836654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, it does < 1261836667 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty cool I wonder what algorithm it uses < 1261836684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, in latex \sum _{i=0}^{\infty } \frac{1}{2^i} I think < 1261836694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mathematica claims it is < 1261836696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with convert to latex < 1261837336 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261838707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, well that is not public for mathematica mostly iirc < 1261838716 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1261838717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tests with maxima < 1261838768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, maxima manages it too < 1261838770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is open source < 1261838798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sum(1/(2^k), k, 0, inf), simpsum; < 1261838801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives 2 < 1261838807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, so go look at that < 1261839793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261840776 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261841731 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261842274 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261842342 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261846024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw, that "linux binaries on OS X" idea with your elfloader, did you do any work of that? < 1261846068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/of/on/ < 1261846809 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261849432 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261850374 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261853395 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261855153 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombgirl < 1261855943 0 :Desmo!n=Desmo@host155-97-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it JOIN :#esoteric < 1261856318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261856337 0 :Desmo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1261861610 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261863179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting stuff happens when you delete part of the stuff while tar is still extracting: < 1261863204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tar: linux-2.6.32.2/arch/microblaze: Function "stat" failed: File or directory not found < 1261863220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to save some space by deleting all the arches I didn't need < 1261863446 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261863470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it was extracting into that directory, so of course it expects it to still exist. < 1261865454 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jpc < 1261866627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to see if Gregor has any simpler opuses. < 1261866788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, opera. < 1261866888 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Opus 10 sounds simpler, but it's less interesting and has some icky patches. < 1261866932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261866936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Support for old Pentium 5 / WinChip machine checks" < 1261866939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kernel config option < 1261866944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is a pentium 5 < 1261866960 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the score for Opus 9 in an attempt to judge its quality from just that. < 1261867024 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION listens to the horrible-sounding MIDI version of Opus 9 instead. < 1261867038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pentium 5fV < 1261867051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261867055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*5eV < 1261867055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I listening to this at all? It's not for piano. < 1261867123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? < 1261867135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, why is it horrible sounding? < 1261867150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, not a good enough sound font loaded into your hardware midi? < 1261867182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thing is, if this is a typo for pentium 3 then it would affect the kernel I'm configuring < 1261867262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving..." < 1261867306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it seems the original pentium was codenamed P5 < 1261867307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: punny puns of puun < 1261867308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains stuff < 1261867316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1261867328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, too worried about this to bother with puns < 1261867362 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nope. It's probably difficult to get a good soundfont for a string trio. < 1261867367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not in a happy mood atm: frozen water in pipes tends to make you rather unhappy < 1261867380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1261867398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thankfully only for the garden hose connection on the outside of the wall < 1261867413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no expensive leak inside some wall < 1261867420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, water has to be turned off < 1261867431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until a plumber is available < 1261867433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are hard to get < 1261867466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a single one within 40 km radius was able before tomorrow (and this happened yesterday morning) < 1261867566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261867610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw googling for pentium 5 found some funny old stuff < 1261867623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumours about a 15 GHz pentium 5 by 2010 for example :D < 1261867628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was from 2002 < 1261867660 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-116.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261867827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, Intel did say they were going to go to 10 GHz and higher, around the time when the Prescott came out < 1261867843 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When they noticed AMD's 2 GHz chips performed better than theirs they kinda changed plans < 1261867864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where "theirs" == 5 GHz and up.) < 1261867866 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261867971 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tejas_and_Jayhawk suggests they had 7 GHz stuff ready to be built in 2004. < 1261868639 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261869575 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261869802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261869823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but I thought there was some wall around 5-6 Ghz? < 1261869824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1261870164 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the highest clock frequency seen in any sold Intel X86/X64 series processor? < 1261870614 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiya < 1261870620 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to ask you guys a question here < 1261870664 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a linear recurrence over the integers: a_n = c_1 * a_(n-1) + ... + c_d * a_(n-d) < 1261870690 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with initial conditions, does there exist an k so that a_k = 0? He only asks for a decision procedure: he says that it is ... faintly outrageous that this problem is still open; it is saying that we do not know how to decide the halting problem even for “linear” automata! < 1261870710 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently 3.8GHz was the highest. < 1261870722 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doh < 1261870725 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized < 1261870743 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to ask, doesn't rule 110 explain why there is no decision procedure < 1261870750 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but actually it's not a linear recurrence.. < 1261870758 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nevermind < 1261870801 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That question is reminiscent of the subset-sum problem. < 1261870824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: um that looked linear to me... < 1261870838 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 110 looks linear? < 1261870844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no. < 1261870868 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that linear recurrence plus initial conditions decision looks solvable... < 1261870919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: "faintly outrageous that this problem is still open" means that whoever gave you the problem claims it's open? < 1261870925 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, all those linear recurrences can be represented as matrices. < 1261870925 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yeah, I figured out what the problem is... < 1261870970 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the claim is that it's open, and I thought 110 gave an argument against: but then realized that 1D CA is a different format < 1261870986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1261871020 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_n = c_1 * a_(n-1) + ... c_d * a_(n_d) plus initial conditions can be written in form a_n = e_1 * (b_1)^n + ... + e_d * (b_d)^n. < 1261871024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that obviously means it's _hard_ < 1261871076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: that may still make it _worse_, since those b_i are not integers < 1261871079 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261871095 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: In fact b's and e's are not even guaranteed to be real. < 1261871105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1261871217 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261871230 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't encode a turing machine with a linear recurrence? < 1261871403 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261871503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: um if we knew how to do that we would have solved that unsolved problem. you think that is something done on the spot in an irc channel? < 1261871515 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1261871531 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know you can't encode a turing machine into the linear recurrence, it still doesn't solve the problem < 1261871553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm could be < 1261871567 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know you can then the problem is closed, but it's open -- so there's some kind of epistomogical argument that you can't encode turing machines into it < 1261871576 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er epistemological < 1261871596 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED! :P < 1261871615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so. it could just be possible, but very hard < 1261871639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how famous unsolved problems are usually solved, after all < 1261871666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that or someone comes up with an argument from something completely unrelated < 1261871689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both. < 1261871765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be easily turned into a number of special cases of a vector problem < 1261871794 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's another problem that's suprisingly hard (but not unsolveable): Given nxn table of bits, How many ways there are to choose n all-1 bits such that no two chosen bits are on same column or row? < 1261871794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given matrix A, vector v, is there any n such that A^n v has first coordinate 0 < 1261871832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that could still be harder, or could it... < 1261871865 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, <= n! I guess < 1261871885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's obviously solvable in the computational sense, just use brute force < 1261871892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ Ilari < 1261871903 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm.. I have seen people compute fibs using the matrix power like that so yeah I see a link < 1261872124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent < 1261872176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Moreover, computing the permanent of a 0-1 matrix (matrix whose entries are 0 or 1) is #P-complete." < 1261872194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's equivalent to your problem < 1261872229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thus, if the permanent can be computed in polynomial time by any method, then FP = #P which is an even stronger statement than P = NP." < 1261872244 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how interesting!! < 1261872286 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, P = NP impiles P = PH... Are there any problems known to be in P^#P but not in PH? < 1261872410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well given that P^FP = P if P=NP, plus the above, i'd say no... < 1261872423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1261872429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P^FP = P always < 1261872559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One consequence of Toda's theorem is that a polynomial-time machine with a #P oracle (P#P) can solve all problems in PH, the entire polynomial hierarchy. In fact, the polynomial-time machine only needs to make one #P query to solve any problem in PH." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P) < 1261872570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess that's what you were referring to < 1261872651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a couple more links brings us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP_(complexity) < 1261872753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"PP is contained in PSPACE" < 1261872827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i think that means no, because it is not known that P != PSPACE < 1261872877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if P = PSPACE then P^PP = P containing everything else mentioned < 1261872958 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The canonical PSPACE-complete problem: Is boolean formula with arbitrary existential and universal operators true? < 1261872984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods < 1261873025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PP has MAJSAT < 1261873139 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for many problems that for turing machine are recursively enumerable (undecidable) are PSPACE-complete for linearly bounded automata. < 1261873351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1261874823 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261874930 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-50-95.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261875426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261875456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1261876147 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-98-70.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261876569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261876881 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261876900 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261876900 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261876900 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261876900 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261876926 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261876926 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261876926 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1261876926 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1261877567 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261877569 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261877733 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261878347 0 :adu!n=ajr@pool-74-96-89-187.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261878961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261879858 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261880125 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261880125 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261880300 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261880300 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261880337 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261886260 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261886303 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261886311 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261887420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders the permanent of a 0-1 matrix. < 1261887497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have n objects and n categories. Each object belongs to some arbitrary set of categories. How many ways are there to pick one object from each category? < 1261887528 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that what the permanent of a 0-1 matrix amounts to? < 1261887533 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so. < 1261887561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... < 1261887595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, i guess so. < 1261887626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, exactly one < 1261887642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1261887652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that doesn't work < 1261887662 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the number of objects is equal to the number of categories either. < 1261887673 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're picking at least one from each category, you're picking exactly one from each category. < 1261887695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you always pick all the objects, and all the categories. it's the _pairing_ that needs to be picked. < 1261887730 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ either// < 1261887767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261887869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it's the number of ways of pairing objects one-to-one with categories < 1261888071 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1261888086 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "ways" is kind of ambiguous. < 1261889863 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261890201 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1261897084 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gotopp.org/ < 1261900799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261900800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261903099 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261904389 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261904450 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C abusers: is there a way to tell if an expression is a constant string or not? Typeof or sizeof magic, etc. Constant meaning things like "abc", "abc" "def", etc. < 1261904506 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261904512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chirp* < 1261904523 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all the strings are in the .text section the pointer values will be below (above) some threshold < 1261904578 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use case (hiding the magic) #define REGEXP(s) if (constant(s)) compile in the corresponding compiled regexp else compile in a rubtime call to the regexp compiler < 1261904585 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: in the C itself, not post-linking. < 1261904597 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rubtime < 1261904600 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1261904607 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*runtime < 1261904678 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the bigger issue is compiling a regexp at compile time, requiring either C execution or spawning a command. < 1261904697 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like something you'd normally want to use lisp for < 1261904698 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither of which gcc is wont to do. < 1261904720 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Yes, but it's not an interesting task in Lisp. < 1261904727 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly my point < 1261904736 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps a before-link task. < 1261904769 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks for some magic planted by the macro, compiles the regexp and links it in. < 1261904781 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's rather heavyweight. < 1261904870 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261906485 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261908962 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261908990 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a lot of what augur said about Haskell was outright wrong or explained badly. < 1261909016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: a lot of it was right and explained correctly. until the monad stuff < 1261909021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause god only knows about monads man < 1261909026 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw, anyone trying to prove dupdog sub TC could try to implement it in Total FP. < 1261909051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION laughs at today's iwc < 1261909085 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: No, you made factual errors, and your explanations were of your usual style, glossing over and bending around in confusing twists. < 1261909103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i didnt and no they werent. :| < 1261909106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just ehird < 1261909112 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malcontent extraordinaire < 1261909118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1261909124 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, anyone who couldn't even write a monad tutorial based around a terrible metaphor shouldn't be teaching it. < 1261909134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey hey relax, why can't you _both_ be right < 1261909144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1261909145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wrong, as the case may be < 1261909146 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You made factual errors. End of story. < 1261909151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldnt even write a monad tutorial? what? < 1261909155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which factual erors < 1261909185 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One being that you can make multiple functions of the same name as long ad their type < 1261909197 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As their type differs < 1261909225 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is false. You apparently discover typeclasses a few lines after stating this. < 1261909236 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But typeclasses do not do this either. < 1261909246 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1261909266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, perhaps you cannot do it precisely as i said < 1261909270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you pretty much can, ehird. < 1261909274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: dupdog in Total FP seems unlikely. after all iirc it is pretty clear that some dupdog programs don't terminate < 1261909275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeclasses _do_ do this. < 1261909280 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would write more but seeing as all your explanations last five years i've forgotten most of it < 1261909287 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You are wrong. < 1261909318 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm. Darn. < 1261909323 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then ill let you bullshit an explanation for how you can have >>= defined differently for different kinds of monads. < 1261909342 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way thats dependent on the particular monad involved < 1261909364 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are not multiple definitions of (>>=). < 1261909371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right sorry < 1261909381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just >>= appearing in multiple places < 1261909385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in definitions... < 1261909391 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with different type signatures in each place < 1261909395 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how silly of me < 1261909429 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: please tell him to shut up. your name is in the report after all < 1261909449 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :else I'll be forced to explain what typeclasses actually are < 1261909458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be an argument by miniscule authority? :D < 1261909458 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On an iphone < 1261909468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iknow well enough what type classes are < 1261909473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To an arrogant person who thinks he knows haskell < 1261909482 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird stop talking about yourself < 1261909495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: More tiny than Russell's Teapot! < 1261909519 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god if only there were some sort of tutorial < 1261909521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on haskell.org < 1261909528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explained overloading of functions! < 1261909528 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Did you really just say: < 1261909532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woe is me! D: < 1261909534 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1261909534 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/classes.html < 1261909548 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i know you are but what am i?" < 1261909560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could it BE? < 1261909607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could it BE that this document actually says that you can overload a function by defining it differently for different types as they vary under a type class? < 1261909612 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my god! < 1261909617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it DOES! < 1261909618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1261909634 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are honestly the most ignorant, self-centered person I have ever had the displeasure of being talked at by on this channel. Cue "I know you are but what am I". < 1261909657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god ehird im so hurt by your displeasure at my being ignorant < 1261909667 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>=)'s polymorphism does not mean it is more than one function. < 1261909674 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are a fool. Goodbye. < 1261909682 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261909688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a child. < 1261909695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be them hormones :D < 1261909718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh its not more than one function! i swear! its just defined COMPLETELY dependent upon the type, meaning there are different LAMBDAS but its the same NAME so its only one function!" < 1261909790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and you're an arrogant fool who goes around talking about haskell but _I_ know more about haskell! more than spj himself!" < 1261909819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: for the millionth time, stop exaggerating < 1261909836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry; i respond to cunty behavior with cunty behavior. < 1261909841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that hes here anymore or anything buit < 1261909968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is probably a point to which ehird is correct, ofcourse. < 1261910003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*GASP* < 1261910026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type classes do actually enforce certain type restrictions so having f :: a -> a and f :: a -> a -> a isnt possible i think < 1261910031 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GASP indeed! < 1261910053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, im not above acknowledging when someone is correct < 1261910101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately thats about it. other than, the functions _do_ differ in type < 1261910238 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261910258 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class WrongAgainBatman a b where f :: a -> b < 1261910283 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance WrongAgainBatman a (a -> a) where ... < 1261910285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1261910319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class IHaveToHaveTheLastWord a where idiot :: a -> Bool < 1261910347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance IHaveToHaveTheLastWord Ehird where idiot a = true < 1261910353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TEEHEE I MADE A HASKELL INSULT < 1261910356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SO SMARTYPANTS < 1261910406 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit insults without substance, hastily translated into code. I was proving you wrong, not saying "augur is a nitwit on crack", although indeed that is accurate. < 1261910434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were proving me wrong huh < 1261910437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAT A PROOF OH MAN < 1261910443 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see any further interaction will be epitomic in its boringness. < 1261910484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should leave again! < 1261910495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I showed a direct counter example to the statements you made immediately preceding it. < 1261910516 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that in any way not a disproof of those statements? < 1261910525 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it a counter example. < 1261910555 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you can have f :: a -> a -> a and f :: a < 1261910561 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> a < 1261910570 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From one source < 1261910573 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261910584 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which you said was impossible. < 1261910617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i? im pretty sure I said I think < 1261910620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means i wasn't certain < 1261910621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you didn't understand the code snippet, well, maybe some Haskell knowledge would help. < 1261910645 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means demonstrating it (which you didnt, since you didnt exactly type a -> a -> a now did you?) merely clears up uncertainty < 1261910650 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You say "think" a lot but all the surrounding language was certain. < 1261910680 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL THEN YOU MIGHT WANT TO RECONSIDER HOW YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH HUH < 1261910684 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I didn't type it out, but my code was a direct counterexample. < 1261910703 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it? cause i dont see how < 1261910737 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you do not understand Haskell code. Why am I wasting my time, incidentally? < 1261910740 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261910752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a child. < 1261910905 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Axo <-- Expanded the description. Any comments? < 1261911846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan laughs at today's iwc <-- me too! < 1261911976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Btw, anyone trying to prove dupdog sub TC could try to implement it in Total FP. <--- I have been thinking about various sub-TC languages, and I can't think of a way. Plus what oerjan said later. < 1261912009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> oerjan: please tell him to shut up. your name is in the report after all <--- what report? < 1261912022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what report did he mean? < 1261912053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the haskell 98 report < 1261912053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> To an arrogant person who thinks he knows haskell <-- please tell me when you get back: do you claim you know haskell? ;) < 1261912093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh, how comes your name is in there? < 1261912116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some corrections < 1261912328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261913798 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261913879 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261913900 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261914051 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261914906 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-193-188.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261919946 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"reboot" < 1261920310 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261922427 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261922481 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261923098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261923109 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261923297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1261923515 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261923515 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261923515 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261923515 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261923515 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924154 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261924155 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-193-188.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-50-95.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-158.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :jix!n=jix@188.40.47.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@64.62.173.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924155 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1261924657 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261926978 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261926978 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261926979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261926979 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261926979 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261926979 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261926979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261927022 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927042 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927510 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927510 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927510 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927510 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927510 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927534 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@82.28.6.31 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261927611 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261928326 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261928463 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261928463 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261928464 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261928464 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261928464 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261928464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1261928775 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@82.28.6.31 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261928775 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261928775 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261928775 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261928775 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1261929799 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261930770 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1261934021 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261934055 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host81-129-119-162.range81-129.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261937873 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261940055 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@89.241.41.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261940944 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261943287 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I am leaving. You are about to explode." < 1261943421 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261944017 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so quiet D: < 1261944034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey uorygl you here? < 1261944869 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@74.13.131.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261945662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261946345 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261947242 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261947595 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261947661 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261948085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, not quiet here < 1261948088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you spoke ;P < 1261948089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and me too < 1261948107 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the only one that hasn't spoken < 1261948115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, until then < 1261950094 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add me to the list < 1261950430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google should have a reverse image search < 1261950435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1261950446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you provide an *image* and it tries to locate images like it < 1261950454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and their context < 1261950712 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1261950715 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be awesome < 1261950719 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've read something about it < 1261951483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what?! it exists? < 1261951502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it would take a lot of computation < 1261951543 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it _exists_, but I think I saw something on Google about something similar < 1261951551 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1261952561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, hm < 1261953389 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host81-129-119-162.range81-129.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261954064 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261954142 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-16-187.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1261955125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I should start using gigaĂĄngström for measurement < 1261955128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, ^ < 1261955140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it equals 10 cm says units(1) < 1261955156 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1261955168 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1Ă… is 10nm or 0.1nm < 1261955171 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always forget which < 1261955178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.1 < 1261955182 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1261955187 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever, never liked it < 1261955195 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish sounds so wrong in such contexts < 1261955196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, it's like attoparsec < 1261955201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is iirc around 3 cm < 1261955202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1261955215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.0856776 < 1261955233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a furlong per fortnight, which is around 1 cm / minute < 1261955260 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty slow < 1261955264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1261955265 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snail speed < 1261955272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how long is a furlong? < 1261955289 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia probably knows < 1261955291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Around 200 m IIRC < 1261955292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1261955305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes 201.168 meters says units(1) < 1261955330 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_units_of_measurement < 1261955339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<FireFly> Swedish sounds so wrong in such contexts <-- pronounce it in English "angstrom" < 1261955348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that sounds worse < 1261955355 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still < 1261955355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like their "smorgasbord" < 1261955360 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds wrong to me < 1261955403 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's the reason for having a unit for 0.1nm anyway? < 1261955416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, atoms < 1261955420 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.8nm makes more sense than 8Ă… for me < 1261955430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 Ă… < 1261955431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean < 1261955435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1261955859 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261956180 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1261956640 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-162-151-12.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261956681 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261956990 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1261957343 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261957949 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261958007 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-151-12.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261958442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want an autotracking telescope :| < 1261959125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: make sure you put a diaeresis over the ĂĄ in gigaĂĄngstrom. < 1261959136 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, gigaĂĄngström. < 1261959166 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! < 1261960021 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261960375 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1261960407 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-151-12.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261961138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl :D < 1261961139 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1261961220 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, augur. < 1261961234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howsit goin < 1261961409 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty well. < 1261961658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas yet on how to make a name not be a predicate? :P < 1261961838 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I refuse to tell you! :-P < 1261961845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thats a no < 1261961846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1261966064 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261967167 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261967345 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1261967399 0 :osaunders_!n=osaunder@84.13.162.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261967802 0 :osaunders_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bye" < 1261967819 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261967901 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261968092 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261968121 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261968139 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: insulting others does not make oneself arrogant. < 1261968156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, reverse image search = tineye. < 1261968173 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tineye.com/ I think < 1261968192 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1261968225 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets you find source, larger version, uncropped version, etc. < 1261968263 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uses real image data, not tags. < 1261968270 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261968289 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think music fingerprinting a la MusicBrainz. < 1261968418 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minimum 100 pixels in either dimension, max 1 MiB, 100 searches a day. YMMV. < 1261968432 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261968626 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261968964 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1261969110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! <-- no < 1261969114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, because they are not < 1261969121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are separate letters < 1261969133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not just "a with dots/ring" < 1261969139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are separate letters in the alphabet < 1261969159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like saying the dot over "i" is just some kind of similar thing < 1261969180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! <-- also there are lots of such words < 1261969200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261969236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ehirdiphone> Minimum 100 pixels in either dimension, max 1 MiB, 100 searches a day. YMMV. <-- cool btw < 1261969239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now really < 1261969240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1261969249 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool restrictions! < 1261969258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, meh you know what I meant < 1261969264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOW REALLY < 1261969272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for a few seconds just in case < 1261969291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, also here is something funny about how crazy Sweden used to be: http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/bldyk2.htm < 1261969300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about how true this is < 1261969434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about.com is pretty accurate on objective matters < 1261969451 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lol@shitty calendar change < 1261969516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, indeed < 1261969627 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Lol just read it all < 1261969635 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how they just gave up < 1261969656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1261970344 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1261973141 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< AnMaster> uorygl, because they are not < 1261973144 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are not what?? < 1261973146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/?// < 1261973208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the is the who < 1261978032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261979341 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1261982950 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261983120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1261986663 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1261986857 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261986863 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261987199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1261987200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1261989602 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261989856 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1261989981 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1261989993 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261990759 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261990777 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1261991598 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1261991604 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1261994553 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1261995825 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :SendQ exceeded < 1261995838 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1261995866 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest22473 < 1261996001 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1261996040 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1261997632 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-149.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1261997956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? < 1261997964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, see the line above < 1261997968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> <uorygl> It'll be one of those words containig both a diaeresis and an umlaut! <-- no < 1261997968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<AnMaster> uorygl, because they are not < 1261997970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1261997978 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1261998004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, those letters are not a or o with dots < 1261998012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, they are in fact separate letters < 1261998018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in they have a place in the alphabet < 1261998034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyzåäö < 1261998075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Swedish only has w in imported words + a few family names, most of which are not native ones iirc) < 1261998157 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. The ö in ĂĄngström isn't an o with an umlaut? < 1261999706 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1262002532 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-151-12.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262004341 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ĂĄngström = steam stream < 1262004367 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262004453 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ö in swedish is always o with umlaut/diaeresis < 1262004472 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262004510 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-151-12.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262004568 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262005851 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-149.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262005922 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-149.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262006020 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1262006402 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1262006600 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-149.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262007399 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262007477 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262007840 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262008218 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262008351 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-162-151-12.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262012212 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262012481 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262014133 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262014465 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1262014565 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262014637 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262015178 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-28-6-31.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262016039 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262016107 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262016253 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262017055 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1262017243 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262017285 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262019088 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@host86-137-94-2.range86-137.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262020107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<uorygl> Oh. The ö in ĂĄngström isn't an o with an umlaut? <-- nor is the a an a with a "diaeresis" or whatever you called it < 1262020122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the letter ö < 1262020138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the letter ĂĄ) < 1262020205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<MizardX> ö in swedish is always o with umlaut/diaeresis <-- is e and Ă© separate letters? Not in any language I know of (but I don't exclude this may happen). Rather Ă© seems to be "e with modifier" < 1262020208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar < 1262020257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ö is not "o with a modifier" in Swedish, It's a separate letter. < 1262020264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people seem to get this wrong < 1262020276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most non-Swedes that is < 1262020306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i _think_ e and Ă© may be separate in hungarian. let me check... < 1262020401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah. not for collation though. < 1262020601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :czech does not consider them truly different, iiuc from wikipedia < 1262020610 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phonological umlaut exists in most Germanic languages, including Swedish and even in English plurals: goose/geese, for example. < 1262020630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The diacritic ¨ no longer represents umlaut or even diaeresis (e.g. English "coöperate") in most of these languages: mostly the letters äöü were borrowed into the alphabet from German because they sounded similar. < 1262020658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, whether to treat such things as separate letters or not is completely arbitrary by language < 1262020661 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia tells me that Swedish did originally use ä and ö specifically for umlaut purposes, though. < 1262020807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well iirc those sounds originated mainly from umlaut in what used to be a/o/u in front of i's in old nordic < 1262020948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be. < 1262020967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were also other processes in front of u and a. e.g. e -> ja in front of a < 1262021013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in norwegian that only happens in some dialects. thus nynorsk "eg" == bokmĂĄl "jeg" == swedish "jag" == english "I" < 1262021017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1262022125 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262022285 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262022739 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262023576 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262023580 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262024979 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262027430 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262028464 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1262028708 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@84.13.162.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262030081 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262030161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are any people on here today? I can see the log < 1262030178 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, it is the same timezone that I am at < 1262030191 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The server TIME command also gives the same timezone < 1262030344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enq < 1262030372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm here, but about to leave < 1262030388 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Challenge_Ruleset_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29 < 1262030443 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those people won't provide the address cloak I asked. < 1262030456 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I choose not to address cloak, instead < 1262030789 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262030881 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262031047 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "Challenge Ruleset" any good? < 1262031129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most D&D groups don't stick to rules so strongly < 1262031144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally the wait to see what works and what doesn't work for them, and just change it round on the fly < 1262031243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262031244 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm not suggesting you do stick to rules too strongly < 1262031260 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm suggesting something a bit different, these are possibly guidelines of game rules < 1262031269 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With D&D 3.5, it's impossible to stick to the rules strongly... < 1262031270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much of the rules are not well-defined. < 1262031330 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1262031336 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are not meant to stick to the rules strongly < 1262031343 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is good and proper < 1262031371 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Terminal out of paper" < 1262031389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's an interesting parting message. < 1262031633 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262032094 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@84.13.162.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262032704 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262032725 0 :_MigoMipo_!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262033072 0 :_MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262033088 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262033138 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Operation timed out < 1262033393 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-14-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262033426 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262033481 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262033577 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262033963 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262034094 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262034300 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262034345 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262035408 0 :osaunders!n=osaunder@84.13.162.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262035668 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262036045 0 :osaunders_!n=osaunder@84.13.50.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262036467 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262036467 0 :osaunders_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :osaunders < 1262037660 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262038579 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262038841 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262039240 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262039556 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262039618 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1262042758 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262042799 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1262046305 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262046640 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1262047557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1262047786 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262048130 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262048134 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262048228 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1262048235 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262048288 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1262048295 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262048342 0 :osaunders!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bye" < 1262048434 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262049117 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262049131 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-158.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262049267 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262049601 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262049739 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262049829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049829 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049837 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049837 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049837 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049837 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049838 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262049976 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050161 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@d83-181-48-146.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050429 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050429 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050429 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050429 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050429 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050436 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262050801 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262051054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262051134 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262051229 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262051229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262051229 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262051229 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262051230 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262051750 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262051792 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262051792 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262051792 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262051792 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262053486 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262053974 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054374 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054374 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054374 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054374 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054374 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054374 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054375 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-158.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-14-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :yiyus!i=12427124@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054375 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :EgoBot!n=EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :jix!n=jix@188.40.47.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@64.62.173.65 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054376 0 :ineiros!n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054652 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054653 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054654 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262054680 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054940 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262054940 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262056722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262056738 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262057050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262057104 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262057104 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262057172 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262057312 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262057313 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262057409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262057432 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262057467 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262057467 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262057668 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262057668 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262058310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262058444 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262058444 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262058506 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262058506 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262058547 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262058638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262058677 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262058800 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262058800 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262058813 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262059510 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262059510 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262059567 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision) < 1262059855 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060014 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262060029 0 :jpc1!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060035 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262060053 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060164 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262060164 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262060164 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262060164 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262060316 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262060336 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060528 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060528 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060580 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262060580 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262063891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bsmntbombdood? < 1262064275 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombgirl! < 1262064930 0 :jpc1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262065976 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262066329 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262066450 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised something disturbing. Lazy evaluation means that (length xs) might be _|_ for one of two reasons: xs is infinitely long, or xs is _|_. Whereas strict evaluation only has the latter. This is obvious, but: < 1262066483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means that lazy evaluation gives your programs more opportunities to _|_. < 1262066495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't good at all! < 1262066544 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, lazy evaluation also means _|_ can go undetected, if a function chooses a certain branch, thus not evaluating it. < 1262066558 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add some more code and BAM. < 1262066565 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It jumps on you. < 1262066623 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason you get _|_ on an infinite list is because haskell is strict < 1262066628 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you want to minimise bugs, strict evaluation is actually quite superior. < 1262066635 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Wat < 1262066638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: ... Say what now? < 1262066642 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Yes < 1262066651 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Integer is strict < 1262066656 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think about it < 1262066662 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could just result in < 1262066669 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1+... < 1262066679 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only _|_ on show < 1262066691 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is a theoretical complaint. < 1262066707 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such an implementation would be beyond glacial. < 1262066721 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could hear the bits flipping. < 1262066728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Strict evaluation is only quite superior for bug minimisation when all else is equal. < 1262066740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, of course, it isn't. < 1262066754 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262066769 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, but if you're going to the effort of using the type system to its full < 1262066782 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As we should do more often < 1262066795 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy evaluation kinda negates that quite a bit < 1262066843 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also, wait < 1262066866 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way you phrased that suggests that there's no language that's like haskell but strict < 1262066880 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... Ocaml anyone? < 1262066901 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty similar. Does some things better, actually. < 1262066922 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah like being suitable for writing programs bigger than one page :o) < 1262066939 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: btw strict != impure. You can have strict monadic IO < 1262066947 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just no (>>) < 1262066999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yeah, strict != impure. < 1262067015 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wasn't *aware* of any strict pure functional languages with a proper type system. < 1262067079 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about strongly normalizing ones (it doesn't matter if you use strict or pure, you get the same result) < 1262067091 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, my head is formulating a pure functional language with dependent types, first class modules (think ml functor style stuff), compile-time type inspection (type system metaprogramming), and arbritary syntactic extension < 1262067153 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while I'm piling on the cool shit, let's have region inferrence instead of a gc too. maybe. < 1262067174 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seen Ur? < 1262067185 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: My main inspration. < 1262067190 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1262067200 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's awesome < 1262067205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed < 1262067233 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my lang will be moreso :| < 1262067258 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262067282 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functors? Why not just make a compile-level function module ... -> module ...? < 1262067293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262067302 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are first class values (at compile time), after all! < 1262067305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ocaml appears to have non-trivial functions from () -> ()... < 1262067314 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-trivial ? < 1262067316 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ocaml doesn't do monadic io < 1262067324 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry if I implied that < 1262067349 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ocaml-but-monadic is a trivial variation however < 1262067374 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my purely functional mind, the only meaningful functions of () -> () are \_->() and _|_... < 1262067376 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw why does hs do notation have "do"? It doesn't disambiguate < 1262067381 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just makes it uglier < 1262067411 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Total FP! \() -> () is IT. < 1262067411 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what of \_->_|_ and \()->() and \()->_|)? < 1262067424 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Equivalent < 1262067426 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262067440 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think \()->() is different to \_->() < 1262067440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: AKA _|_, \_->() and _|_. < 1262067448 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_ = \x -> _|_ < 1262067450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I specified that the type is ()->(). < 1262067456 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Nope < 1262067458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only value of type () is (). < 1262067465 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1262067466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And _|_, of course. < 1262067472 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right siypdragon < 1262067489 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\_ -> ()) _|_ < 1262067494 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you (about \_->_|_ = _|_) < 1262067498 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is () when lazy < 1262067503 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But < 1262067511 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\()-> () < 1262067513 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_ < 1262067516 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is _|_ < 1262067520 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so \()->_|_ = _|_ too? < 1262067533 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Yes < 1262067551 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262067583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Well, you claimed Ocaml was pure. So, I assumed that that meant it was pure. :P < 1262067589 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why Ur/Web uses SQL. Such a fancy language with such a hobbling, antiquated data store. < 1262067597 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL kicks ass < 1262067598 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I did not claim that. L < 1262067610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You more implied it, really. < 1262067619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I inferred from that that it was pure. < 1262067626 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try using it to program stuff instead of whatever it's meant for, it's loads of fun < 1262067639 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: lol < 1262067652 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should rebrand SQL as an esolangs < 1262067657 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*esolang < 1262067695 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1262067711 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should make an esolang based on the best bits, and pretend I thought of it myself < 1262067750 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot a feature of my language < 1262067760 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every value is serialisable < 1262067778 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cURL would require: Gopher protocol, Xmodem/Ymodem/Zmodem, recursive retrieval (for HTTP, FTP, and Gopher), SSH (Secure Shell), port number ranges, SMTP, POP3, NNTP, and a different one < 1262067783 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functions, continuations, at compile time even modules and types < 1262067839 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you serialise [f,g,cont] I think that the environment shared by them would only be serialised once < 1262067862 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, the non-code part of a closure) < 1262067890 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No promises for that though :P < 1262067978 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is something wrong with pbox service, once you post something, it will use the number for the pastebin.ca URL instead, and then it won't work. If you redirect to pastebin.ca with the same number, then you can get the correct pbox URL < 1262068052 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: You seem like the type to know this stuff - does FRP work for linear things? Like command line programs. < 1262068071 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like it'd basically amount to a really verbose io monad < 1262068100 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about FRP < 1262068173 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you mentioned Ur a < 1262068181 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nd it uses FRP :-P < 1262068190 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BE AN EXPERT DAMMIT < 1262068217 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it good? http://pbox.ca/1135q < 1262068219 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262068238 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is a weird bot < 1262068266 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's not a bot < 1262068278 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I am not a weird bot, and I am also not a bot < 1262068281 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you must be the author then < 1262068292 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Author of what? < 1262068295 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cute < 1262068313 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's cute? < 1262068314 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bots that pretend not to be bots... < 1262068346 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Sam Hughes reference possibly detected! < 1262068350 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I'm not bots, really. I didn't just make this up, it is actually real < 1262068358 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I did write a IRC bot, too < 1262068361 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: commmands < 1262068362 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beep. Beep. Beep. < 1262068415 0 :pocketmonsterirc!n=pocketmo@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262068425 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I did wrote a IRC bot program < 1262068435 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1262068437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not the bot < 1262068477 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;help < 1262068482 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: soupdragon is just trollin' you to the max :p < 1262068516 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really care as much about < 1262068527 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure zzo38 knew I was kidding < 1262068539 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's got advanced enough AI < 1262068549 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aieeeeeeer < 1262068551 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262068563 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262068565 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/r/e/ < 1262068568 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262068609 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PocketMonsterIRC supports some commands, try join and ro commands. You can also load separate modules, for loading a game, for example. < 1262068621 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ro < 1262068640 0 :pocketmonsterirc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon:ro #esoteric = Invalid < 1262068650 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU = invalid < 1262068654 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ro requires a dice notation < 1262068655 0 :pocketmonsterirc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon:ro = 0 < 1262068665 0 :pocketmonsterirc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon:ro 1d1 = 1 < 1262068679 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For private rolls, use rnd instead of ro other than that it is the same < 1262068690 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For multiple rolls, you can do like: ro 3d6 6 < 1262068697 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 : ( < 1262068699 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it broke? < 1262068735 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it did, I didn't write it to check range < 1262068746 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sorry < 1262068748 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see the status in the window < 1262068753 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pocketmonster you are dead < 1262068755 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's OK, I will correct it next time. < 1262068759 0 :pocketmonsterirc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262068893 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the documentation for metadata in TAVSYS is good enough? < 1262068904 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't undesrtand it < 1262068960 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should explain it a bit, the METADATA command takes ( id string extra -- ) < 1262068966 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numbers are unsigned 16-bits < 1262068986 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it understandable now? < 1262068997 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it for? < 1262069062 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is for encoding metadata for a text-adventure game as part of a TAVSYS story file or source file < 1262069157 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems fine but there's no space for adding in stuff that hasn't been considered? < 1262069173 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know TAVSYS though < 1262069198 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is space, because the ID number can go up to 65535. However, it has to be defined what the ID number is, so that it can be used < 1262069278 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAVSYS is just a text-adventure system I am writing. I have it mostly done, except for documentation and the standard adventure library, both of which are only partially complete. < 1262069291 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program works, however. I did make a sokoban game in it < 1262069298 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool! < 1262069306 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds interesting < 1262069312 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a repo online? < 1262069341 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does a "repo" mean < 1262069355 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a directory with source code in it < 1262069369 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I will put it right now < 1262069411 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wait a minute < 1262069427 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I just ask because I like looking - I probably wont have much helpful things to tell you < 1262069436 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, just a minute, please. < 1262069443 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fine you don't need to hurry < 1262069473 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1262069645 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262069733 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/ < 1262069833 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the code of a sokoban game: http://pbox.ca/11363 < 1262069859 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey what set are these puzzles from? < 1262069905 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few various sets, including some I made myself. But there are only a few, because this is mostly just for example, anyways. < 1262069929 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 ace!! making sokoban levels is very difficult, < 1262069937 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I better play them though < 1262070065 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have Windows, you can download tavsys_win32glk.zip and then use tavsysc with the filename containing this codes as the first parameter, and the name of compiled file second (should be "sokoban.tav"). You can use tavsysglk to run. You might want to import the registry file it comes with, at first, but it is not a requirement. < 1262070122 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe for some reason it didn't even occur to me to try running the code to play them :D < 1262070271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also download tavsys_src.zip and compile it yourself, however, the run-time program currently requires Win32 Glk (feel free to fix it if you know how), although the compile-time program should work anywhere. < 1262070336 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it requires not only Win32 Glk but also MinGW and the GNU C compiler. Feel free to fix these things if you know how. < 1262070477 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully the documentation should be understandable as it is currently written (although incomplete), but you can tell me if there is something wrong with the documentation, or with the program itself, or with the standard libraries, etc < 1262070504 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably when I have written the standard adventure library, next I will implement Cloak of Darkness as an example. < 1262070520 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is cool < 1262070912 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think you would use it, once the adventure library is written? I will certainly use it, to make at least one full game < 1262070977 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it seems like fun to try and get to run here (on mac right now since my gnu/linux borke) but I still haven't read it fully yet < 1262071146 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can get it to run on a Mac (you can use Glk or write a different user-interface code), I would like to see the codes for doing so, I might include in my program, then. < 1262071234 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you get an error that a negative number of array elements is not allowed, it is because the wrong number of bits in a number of each size, you have to correct that by changing the "#define cell" so that it is a unsigned 16-bits number < 1262071585 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262071896 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :darnit < 1262071903 0 :darnit!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp1 < 1262071929 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jpc < 1262073574 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262073599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1262073600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1262073999 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262074018 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262075451 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262076362 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1262076446 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262076707 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262077652 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262077664 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1262079529 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262080460 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262082865 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1262082937 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262085529 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262086745 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262086756 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262086879 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262088869 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262090912 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262091101 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262091209 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262091236 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262091489 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@82.13.16.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262091940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange, a game that has no reason to access the cdrom tries to do that < 1262091965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's python, shouldn't be too hard to track down < 1262092078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's due to pygame it seems. meh < 1262092811 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262092811 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262092822 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262093147 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262093147 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262093357 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262093516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262093606 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262094408 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262094408 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262094618 0 :Guest22473!i=jerry@81-89-105-25.blue.kundencontroller.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1262094618 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262094813 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262095205 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262096847 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262097228 0 :Guest22473!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cerise < 1262098302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262098451 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262099317 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1262099888 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262099899 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262100290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1262100301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1262100316 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a trap! < 1262100317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how goes stuff with feather? < 1262100320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, hi < 1262100331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi too < 1262100342 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1262100343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: don't ask < 1262100349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not? < 1262100367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm mostly sane atm, and need to stay that way for a bit < 1262100371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262100374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd /almost/ even forgotten Feather existed... < 1262100383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that would be sad < 1262100401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can remind me again when I'm going insane anyway < 1262100410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I know when that happens? < 1262100419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't very noticeable on you < 1262100430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i take it you have retroactively erased the memory? </duck> < 1262100446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? < 1262100448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, existing progress continues < 1262100454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHA < 1262100457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I've been working on Underlambda recently < 1262100463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1262100471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recreated my Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler < 1262100475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it now targets Underload too < 1262100488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm it handles skivd`. < 1262100504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also q if using Underlambda as the target (and it'll eventually handle c with Underlambda as the target) < 1262100592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you plan to make it optimising? < 1262100617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if that is possible) < 1262100623 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to start off with < 1262100629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, maybe eventually < 1262102006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey kiddles < 1262102223 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262102985 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262103027 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262103970 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262103970 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262103977 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262103977 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262104322 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1262104322 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262104353 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262104353 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262105593 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Coyote finally caught me" < 1262105673 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262106183 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262106183 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262106200 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262106200 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262106499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262106523 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262106525 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1262106525 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262106693 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-14-8.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262106795 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262106884 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262107090 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262107090 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262107361 0 :Cerise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262107361 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262107374 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262107374 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262107510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262107543 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262107678 0 :bsmntbombgirl!n=gavin@97-124-201-100.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262107701 0 :Cerise!i=jerry@unaffiliated/cerise JOIN :#esoteric < 1262107701 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262107799 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262108082 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262108087 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262108268 0 :mkry!n=mikehril@las-static-208.57.3.35.mpowercom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262108326 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, are you about? < 1262108349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was earlier, but hasn't said anything for a while < 1262108350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, anyway < 1262108367 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, thanks, and hello. < 1262108428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy working on Underlambda at the moment, and thinking about DownRight < 1262108520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a half-finished Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler atm, and I think you could use similar techniques to maybe compile Unlambda to Scheme < 1262108571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tricky part is mostly handling d, c is easy in a language that has first-class continuations < 1262108716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should paste what I've done so far in case I delete it by accident again (what happened to my /first/ Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler) < 1262108725 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :memental < 1262108787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, hello < 1262108791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was away eating < 1262108798 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello AnMaster. < 1262108807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how goes things? < 1262108815 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came to thank you in person. < 1262108820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262108853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1730896 < 1262108854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, I'm happy it helped. I also suggest you thank ehird (but he is rarely on for long nowdays) < 1262108854 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am over my crisis, and you played a part in that, so Thanks! < 1262108866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great news! < 1262108873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ehird and I cooperated on it) < 1262108874 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to, but do not see him here, if he appears when I am, I have my thanks for him as well. < 1262108889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, I think he log reads < 1262108907 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, Thanks Ehird! wished I could have given it to you in person tho. < 1262108926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, hm there may be one thing, hours before I got your mail about seeing a therapist I contacted the police in the place I believed you lived < 1262108943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did contact them again after to tell them everything was well < 1262108949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I never got a reply to either email < 1262108962 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not surprising, police here are very busy. < 1262108965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I don't know if you moved since then or anything < 1262108979 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on where you think here is. < 1262108986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, I had it as Las Vegas, Nevada, (from 2008 irc logs) < 1262108993 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is still correct. < 1262108995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262109022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, lets just hope police doesn't show up and mess things up then. < 1262109046 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somehow doubt they would, knowing the police around here. < 1262109049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262109058 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if so, I can deal with it. < 1262109070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, well, a bit bad timing on my part < 1262109078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unlikely they'll bother, unless the first mail gets through and the second doesn't < 1262109082 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do not worry about it, I am sure you did what you thought was best. < 1262109133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm :) < 1262109154 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do certainly thank you that you were concerned enough to actually do that. < 1262109173 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would not have expected it from somebody who barely knew me. < 1262109193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, well, I was trying for good samitarians (spelling?) or such, but the ones in Nevada only had phone number, not email listed < 1262109203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was unable to call that from my mobile phone < 1262109208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got an error tone < 1262109226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the police :/ < 1262109238 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to believe in this day and age they would not have had some kind of Internet contact. < 1262109261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, some had. but only in UK, and in a few places in US < 1262109275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none in Nevada, I think there was one in Connecticut or such < 1262109276 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we are kind of backwards over here. < 1262109311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, wouldn't know about that < 1262109318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, you founded the internet < 1262109331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, arpanet < 1262109334 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was back before the country fell apart. < 1262109353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, it could be that someone else would have done it instead if you hadn't) < 1262109362 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am most certain of that. < 1262109395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1262109413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when would that falling apart had happened? < 1262109420 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays the school system has been so destroyed, we do not get smart enough people here anymore. < 1262109431 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say in the later 80s. < 1262109435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nixon and watergate time springs to mind as points where US was definitely rotten < 1262109443 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1262109455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the US is really big and heterogenous, sometimes bits can be screwed up while other bits work perfectly < 1262109464 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is very true. < 1262109466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well of course < 1262109490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the issue is what parts are screwed up. How big impact they have. < 1262109509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, Sweden is certainly screwed up in parts < 1262109511 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :California is the worst, and since they are so populous they tend to spread it to the rest of the country. < 1262109521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that FRA-law for example < 1262109558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, I thought CA voted democratic mostly? < 1262109564 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do. < 1262109573 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262109583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, well, less screwed up than sound of the south states at least then < 1262109605 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most areas have their problems, hard to find a reasonable place here anymore. < 1262109616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not too different here really < 1262109646 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I wished I had stayed in Switzerland, their society was so much better than here. < 1262109662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, exact issues varies < 1262109668 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1262109700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, Switzerland, well with the stuff that happened there recently I'm not sure < 1262109706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the issue is that democrats aren't much better than republicans < 1262109712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, true < 1262109719 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What has happened there? I have not really looked at that place since I left. < 1262109738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, err, not sure of the English terms, read it in Swedish newspapers < 1262109739 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, both political parties have their problems. < 1262109748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the recent vote about forbidding minarets < 1262109758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the majority was to forbid < 1262109762 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1262109765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as that it's "both" political parties, rather than "all"... < 1262109785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that's bad < 1262109786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, whenever this is actually legal as a law, or if it contradicts other laws is one of the things being discussed now iirc < 1262109789 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changing world everywhere I guess. < 1262109798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you don't read news? < 1262109804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that in the UK wouldn't just have Muslims up in arms, but pretty much every other religion too < 1262109816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I do, but wasn't aware it was Switzerland < 1262109924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkry, at least Sweden is so far quite okay when it comes to such things. Of course, there are parties against it, and they are gaining < 1262109925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1262109989 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose all we can is adapt to the changes, and at least voice our opinions to those in power. < 1262109999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, and vote against people with opinions we don't like < 1262110004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1262110005 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1262110014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily, in the UK the politicians are mostly too busy embezzling money to screw up the country too badly < 1262110015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or go found a micronation somewhere < 1262110020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could work < 1262110023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1262110031 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wonder for how long it would work. < 1262110038 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm one of the few people who actually /likes/ it when they're found raiding national finances for their own pocket, it's so much less bad than what they could be doing) < 1262110193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are countries that seems quite okay thing. What about that one in South America. President is a native < 1262110198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember which one it was < 1262110259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, was Bolivia < 1262110567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, just look at the US. < 1262110611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The politicians get "funding" in exchange for raiding national finances for someone else's pocket, rather than just raiding national finances for their own pocket. < 1262110631 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1262110689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1262110898 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, have to reboot my machine, have a stuck process I cannot kill. < 1262110920 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262111991 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re. poor education in the USA: http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/12/when-i-published-gotcha-capitalism-two-years-ago-i-was-in-for-a-big-surprise-as-i-talked-about-systemic-hidden-fee-fraud-al.html#posts < 1262112626 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-70-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262112845 0 :mkry!n=mikehril@las-static-208.57.3.35.mpowercom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262113251 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262113391 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262114239 0 :mkry!n=mikehril@las-static-208.57.3.35.mpowercom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262115861 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262116167 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262116391 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-226.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262116683 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262117014 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262117018 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262117589 0 :mkry!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262118676 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262118683 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262120251 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262120594 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262121480 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262124591 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262126785 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"zzz" < 1262127635 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262127897 0 :memental!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1262129571 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262132120 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262132488 0 :bsmntbombgirl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1262132917 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262132918 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262133185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Spyong" < 1262133329 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So good to hear about Mike. < 1262133356 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262133391 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262133422 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262134583 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262134606 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: See todays logs. < 1262134611 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262134808 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1262135245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1262135303 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely good or definitely hm? < 1262135670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely good < 1262137044 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-13-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262137078 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262137566 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262138105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262138357 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262139793 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262140159 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262141300 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262141474 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-70-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262143331 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262143667 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-70-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262143777 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262143812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who wants to hear about my borderline-eso lang? :P < 1262143831 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(proof of esoness: it's more CS than haskell) < 1262143837 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1262143857 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I already told you the basics yesterday :P < 1262143870 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elaboration is so passĂ© < 1262143905 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more to the point I wouldn't know where to start elaborating) < 1262143957 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: If you as a specific question I can prolly answer < 1262143998 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your friend bipolar < 1262144012 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what friend < 1262144027 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean mike Riley? < 1262144098 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just such a contrast that I am a bit confused by it < 1262144156 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you referring to? his present crisislessness? < 1262144175 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeh < 1262144205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has chronic depression and saw a therapist so presumably it's not doing its chronic thing right now < 1262144255 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sleep pattern messed up again? < 1262144266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of < 1262144275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I sometimes have late Internet nights deliberately, so I can talk to americans < 1262144280 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, nethack.de?) < 1262144291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time it's because it's rather snowy and I didn't want to walk home in it < 1262144295 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh. Mine's messed up too < 1262144302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you'd have no idea how hard it is to internationalise NetHack < 1262144312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly, it's because Germany's closer than the US < 1262144313 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask me about my language! < 1262144318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lag is pretty important when playing NetHack < 1262144322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what language? < 1262144345 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unnamed. Borderline eso. More CS than haskell < 1262144372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? is that even possible? < 1262144379 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1262144391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how might it do I/O? < 1262144401 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even agda is more cs < 1262144410 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not so good for regular programming < 1262144417 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl Talking to Americans < 1262144428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: why is that amusing? < 1262144437 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Basic text io... Prolly monads. < 1262144451 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_to_Americans < 1262144456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: IO? *IO*? How dare you suggest such a thing. < 1262144464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUI and web and stuff? FRP which I won't bother explaining ATM < 1262144471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you can only imagine how hard it is in Feather < 1262144472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main is a function from String to String! < 1262144481 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ask for an overview of the cool stuff! :P < 1262144487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you know, you could just tell me < 1262144525 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Tru day < 1262144527 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fat < 1262144529 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dat < 1262144541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :***dat? < 1262144546 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1262144549 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-70-166.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262144586 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Dependent types. ML style module system. Type level metaprogramming. Arbritary syntactic extension. < 1262144592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASK ABOUT ANY :P < 1262144604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's start with syntactic extension first < 1262144636 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what's the difference between Type level metaprogramming and Dependent types? < 1262144657 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty simple. Modules can add to the syntax of the language, using arbritary code to make the replacement for the syntax < 1262144691 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: The former means inspecting types themselves < 1262144703 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, the names of the fields of a record < 1262144707 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And their types < 1262144708 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etc < 1262144719 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEXT QUESTIONS :p < 1262144764 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Do you know what dependent types are btw? < 1262144777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, but tell me anyway, because terminology is something I easily mess up < 1262144782 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1262144809 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In typed lambda calculus, types index on types and values index on values < 1262144812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is < 1262144823 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A type can depend on another type < 1262144828 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like < 1262144833 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,b) < 1262144843 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indexes on a and n < 1262144844 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B < 1262144847 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types < 1262144858 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And values index on values < 1262144861 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F x < 1262144862 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't get that ehird < 1262144867 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F indexes on x < 1262144875 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Get that so far? < 1262144884 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inspecting types < 1262144886 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You give types to types < 1262144890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, creating types out of other types < 1262144894 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And values to values < 1262144905 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Thats nit dependent Tuesday < 1262144908 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types < 1262144914 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This I'd just bacgriund < 1262144917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262144934 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now in haskell < 1262144951 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typeclasses create values that index on types < 1262144970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The value of the function show depends on what type it is < 1262144977 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int -> String < 1262144990 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String -> String < 1262145002 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of "show" changes < 1262145009 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get it? < 1262145019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1262145029 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now for the kicker < 1262145031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like overloaded functions, but much more first-class and genreal < 1262145033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*general < 1262145049 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Dependent types = types indexing on values < 1262145053 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOR INSTANCE < 1262145060 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262145061 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, aha, I did know that, just forgotten I had < 1262145075 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indexing is just one sort < 1262145085 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Im just explaining it < 1262145086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can have a function that only takes even numbers as arguments, anything else is a typing error? < 1262145091 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not formally defining it < 1262145095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yep < 1262145101 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay but (=) means something dear to me < 1262145114 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a vector access function that enforces bounds checking < 1262145121 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At compile time < 1262145126 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No runtime penalty < 1262145135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like what Splint tries and fails to do < 1262145156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I tried and failed to get my Underlambda interp fully Splint-compliant < 1262145161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Splint seems really buggy < 1262145169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some code I wrote had a bare block for scoping < 1262145173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside a switch statement < 1262145179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I put the break; inside the block, no error < 1262145183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I put it after the block, error < 1262145196 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though the two sets of code were completely identical to any compiler < 1262145203 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway, so dependent types makes programs more type Sade < 1262145205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Safe < 1262145209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, definitely < 1262145211 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And < 1262145220 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets us do things we couldn't otherwise < 1262145226 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More permissive things! < 1262145243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: incidentally, this is how I think a really good BF optimiser would work < 1262145245 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance < 1262145254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to calculate dependent types for tape elements at different points in a program < 1262145273 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vararg :: (n :: Integer) -> Vararg n < 1262145276 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And < 1262145312 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Vararg 0 = (); Vararg n = () -> Vararg (n-1) < 1262145324 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vararg 0 :: () < 1262145334 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vararg 1 :: () -> () < 1262145337 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1262145347 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignoring negatives :P < 1262145362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curried varargs! < 1262145366 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementation if vararg itself: < 1262145376 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vararg 0 = () < 1262145388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think that's possible in Underload too, but a completely different way < 1262145395 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vararg n () = vararg (n-1) < 1262145423 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And this doesn't inspect n at runtime to determine the type! < 1262145433 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1262145437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's /statically/ correct < 1262145441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need more static correctness in the world < 1262145449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, like Splint but actually working < 1262145451 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If n is say read from stdin you just must satisfy the compiler < 1262145461 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it knows your call is correct < 1262145464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: PLUS < 1262145473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All if this leads to more fun < 1262145478 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type safe printf < 1262145499 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262145500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf :: (fmt :: String) -> Printf fmt < 1262145519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Printf [] = IO () < 1262145523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you probably want something along the line of C++'s dynamic_cast < 1262145530 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1262145532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Static < 1262145534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ssh < 1262145558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did someone say C++? :P < 1262145558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, for Cyclexa I was planning what's effectively typesafe /scanf/ < 1262145569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it physically wouldn't let the user input something of the wrong type < 1262145573 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Printf ('%':'d':xs) = Integer -> Printf xs < 1262145576 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha cool < 1262145595 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will point out that C++ has lots of static correctness... too much, really < 1262145605 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Printf (x:xs) = Printf xs < 1262145616 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah my C++ programs are statically correct.. the problems come when you run them < 1262145619 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^^^ dependent types rule < 1262145653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: haha < 1262145662 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Dependent types. ML style module system. Type level metaprogramming. Arbritary syntactic extension." < 1262145663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ doesn't normally enforce static correctness very fully < 1262145667 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Lol < 1262145668 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1262145674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you go and implement integers in the type system, or whatever < 1262145674 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First amd last gone < 1262145679 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick one! < 1262145695 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That comment interests me... what do you mean by that? < 1262145699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apparently, someone won an IOI round like that once) < 1262145705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, C++ templates are Turing-complete < 1262145719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you write a program in them, the whole thing gets run at compile-time < 1262145735 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PICK ONE >:( :P < 1262145739 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you didn't answer my question (in such a way that I can understand it) < 1262145740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean that the type system doesn't allow distinguishing of values? < 1262145747 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Reask < 1262145757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: not in C++, but you can use types themselves effectively as values < 1262145759 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do metaprogramming with dependent types < 1262145771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm very familiar with C++, I just wanted clarification :) < 1262145777 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: You have: < 1262145787 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't the dependent types subsume metaprogramming? < 1262145790 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers the WTFBBQ entry that created a separate type for every integer < 1262145792 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they? < 1262145810 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo = Foo { a :: Integer, b :: Integer } < 1262145827 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With dependent types alone, you could not do < 1262145832 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f Foo < 1262145834 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== < 1262145836 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/WTFBBQ/OMGWTF/ < 1262145843 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/OMGWTF-Finalist-10-FerronCalc.aspx < 1262145850 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[("a",Integer), < 1262145864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("b",Integer)] < 1262145871 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f being type level) < 1262145881 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wnat about < 1262145892 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (A -> B) = "A -> B" < 1262145895 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262145897 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So basically inspecting and creating types programmaticslly in the type system < 1262145905 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is what I mean < 1262145920 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Ask a mote specific question than what about < 1262145949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes to be at the 2010 IOI; possibly even as a competitor, though that seems unlikely due to stupid circumstances < 1262146031 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-198-4.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262146036 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like you have some kind of quotation for types < 1262146052 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that will have to include values too, because of the dependency) < 1262146061 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: That "f Foo" was not runtime code < 1262146069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is type level < 1262146087 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where of course types are values, duh < 1262146112 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo :: Type or :: Set if you fancy < 1262146116 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I still don't get it < 1262146127 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's okay < 1262146134 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would write example code but not on the iph < 1262146136 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh < 1262146153 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll pen write it and photo it >:D < 1262146198 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha now you're thinking with iPhones < 1262146235 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paper. Where is paper < 1262146254 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE NO PAPER < 1262146285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, you're reminding me of how every year when it comes round to exam time I realise I've almost forgotten how to write < 1262146308 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you do most things in your head? or on computer? < 1262146326 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck books with no notes section < 1262146332 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION managed to get a computer for his English exam! < 1262146343 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a bible with a lot of blank pages < 1262146368 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAPER < 1262146377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: both < 1262146389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I generally have plenty of paper < 1262146393 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About to write dependentkly typed code in a ruby on rails book yo < 1262146409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like putting my netbook down directly on a duvet or whatever as it blocks the air vents < 1262146417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out it fits nicely onto an A4 pad of paper < 1262146425 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAA PEN < 1262146429 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need pen < 1262146430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is currently using a cookie tray < 1262146454 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1262146491 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I didn't realise cookie trays were even approximately TC < 1262146491 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF pen is silver < 1262146498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ask your parents? < 1262146504 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for laptop ventilation < 1262146509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ah < 1262146531 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Its 4am < 1262146539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1262146541 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not waking them up :P < 1262146551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should just wait until morning < 1262146555 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAIT < 1262146561 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have drawers here < 1262146567 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With things in them < 1262146573 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEARCH TIME < 1262146645 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cookie trays??? < 1262146653 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YEA < 1262146658 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEN < 1262146927 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Photo time < 1262146930 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262147053 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262147061 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I emailed you the photo < 1262147068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1262147079 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you imgur.com it and link the directvlink here? < 1262147080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, filebin.ca's getting reported as a malware site by Firefox < 1262147084 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thx < 1262147173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/n5amE.jpg < 1262147192 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: < 1262147197 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So here, < 1262147202 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you write it /on/? I hope you haven't damaged a book for our sake < 1262147225 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Fields :: Type -> [(String,Type)] < 1262147227 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1262147237 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically :: Record -> < 1262147246 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not too relevant < 1262147247 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1262147257 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Blank page before index < 1262147266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1262147266 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In ruby on rails book - worthless < 1262147276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you might have been able to sell on that book... < 1262147276 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: See what I mean now? < 1262147283 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262147292 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1262147303 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh well < 1262147310 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's for SCIENCE < 1262147313 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Gracegoats < 1262147360 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The book is way out of date anyway < 1262147367 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hello soupdragon. wink. < 1262147376 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262147385 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ? < 1262147388 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: Get a room! < 1262147398 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1262147404 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: get a real computer :| < 1262147405 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xwat360 < 1262147407 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262147416 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: Get your mo < 1262147419 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone isn't even turing complete!!!! < 1262147419 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M < 1262147439 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real men use real turing machines! < 1262147441 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true. then again this laptop isn't exactly turing-complete < 1262147450 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262147451 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1262147456 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines < 1262147496 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that I can't even allocate enough space to linearly bound any given input size, I'm not quite sure it's context-sensitive < 1262147535 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a big lookup table < 1262147539 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: grok the example? < 1262147547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262147547 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so called "computers" don't compute anything < 1262147552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks just like OCaml < 1262147557 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wat < 1262147572 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's haskell but with dependent types and type metaprogramming < 1262147579 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell syntax thru and through < 1262147585 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is? Epigram? < 1262147587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they're pretty similar syntactically < 1262147598 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax i used in my example < 1262147598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm more used to OCaml, I think < 1262147610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: So, "Let's start with what Haskell gets right, and go from there". < 1262147618 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so the final topic is... The module system! < 1262147627 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use the C #include system < 1262147629 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end of story < 1262147630 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Few differences. < 1262147631 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amirite < 1262147646 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actual syntax will differ quite a bit < 1262147675 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one cares about module systems :P < 1262147679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: MURDER. < 1262147680 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are complicated < 1262147693 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, might be strict not lazy, both for the added safety and because iirc a general implementation of lazy FRP is unsolved problem < 1262147709 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Mine is not just for nanespaces! < 1262147710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: A modern language without a module system is a crime. < 1262147723 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed they are even more powerful than MLs < 1262147732 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah like haskell < 1262147733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, how did you make them interesting? < 1262147757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ... ? < 1262147761 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Will explain immediately after haskell modules bashing < 1262147772 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Haskell has nanespaces < 1262147772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We may be using words differently. Explain. < 1262147779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no functors! < 1262147792 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that kind) < 1262147801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1262147801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider that a somewhat simplistic module system. < 1262147813 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shall I segue into my explanation? :P < 1262147815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, my background is C-heavy, so... Yeah. < 1262147819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1262147849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will use ml haskell hybrid syntax for this explain < 1262147988 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type List = module { type T; empty :: T; add :: Integer -> T -> T; length :: T -> Integer } < 1262147996 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1262148000 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That type there < 1262148007 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sod it let me retire < 1262148010 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rewrite < 1262148011 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sec < 1262148042 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signature { type T; empty :: T; add :: Integer -> T -> T; length :: T -> Integer } < 1262148065 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a signature. Signatures -- modules as types -- values. < 1262148075 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With me so far? < 1262148080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right... < 1262148083 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ais523 pikhq) < 1262148103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1262148105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as in ML < 1262148121 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Just explaining mls stuff first for pikhq < 1262148137 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's an implementation of that signature < 1262148200 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :module List { type T = [Integer]; add x xs = x:xs; length xs = theLanguagesLengthFunction xs } < 1262148217 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could say that that module :: that signature < 1262148222 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With me? < 1262148230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay... < 1262148277 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, List.T is a type. BUT! If we, in our interface file (basically just the types of things), < 1262148304 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put module List :: signature { that signature } < 1262148312 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it becomes it's interface < 1262148316 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e < 1262148328 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: List.T is a type site < 1262148331 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1262148332 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But < 1262148348 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not useable as [Integer] < 1262148356 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is abstractef < 1262148369 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can only use it from List's functions. < 1262148374 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, no? < 1262148385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1262148394 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1] :: List.T simply doesn't work < 1262148410 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the implementation of T is not exposed < 1262148413 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Now < 1262148432 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's conceivable that two modules might have the same signature < 1262148437 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. < 1262148450 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An implementation using a vector < 1262148456 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yah? < 1262148462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1262148495 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have functors. A functor is basically a module that takes other modules as arguments < 1262148498 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Observe < 1262148546 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functor Silly (List :: signature { long signature is long }) = module { < 1262148566 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo = List.add 1 List.empty < 1262148589 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : main = print (List.length (List.add 2 foo)) < 1262148592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1262148597 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could then do < 1262148613 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open (Silly VectorList) < 1262148626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(open is basically import) < 1262148637 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(extracts everything into the current module) < 1262148663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1262148666 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So we have implementation agnostic modules < 1262148670 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet, huh? < 1262148675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1262148681 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND < 1262148721 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combined with my type level metaprogramming (did you understand the photo?) < 1262148825 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. what the hell. http://www.xs4all.nl/~weegen/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml < 1262148830 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ais523 (here is where it departs from ml) < 1262148838 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like breaking down into tears < 1262148843 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: one of Eelis' finest creations < 1262148876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1262148904 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am feeling the joy of human creation simultaneously tinged with desperate sorrow < 1262148920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of Acme::Don't in Perl < 1262148925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was a similarly silly syntax trick < 1262148936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: That photo... < 1262148955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spiffy. < 1262148958 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/n5amE.jpg < 1262148966 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seen it? < 1262148967 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not sure it's on the same scale < 1262148981 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, ehirdiphone, many of us do use pastebins < 1262148981 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grok it? < 1262148986 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: Iphone < 1262148998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: maybe not, but apostrophes in keyword names are still epic < 1262149062 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: < 1262149089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yes. < 1262149093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't is a syntax trick? < 1262149097 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok pen time < 1262149098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just commented on it, in fact. < 1262149104 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok :p < 1262149109 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sec < 1262149197 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too long to write I'll just explain < 1262149208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes < 1262149222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's equivalent to Don::t using an outdated syntax < 1262149231 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262149233 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Who says functor arguments have to be modules? why not types? < 1262149236 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, now I remember < 1262149238 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOR INSTANCE < 1262149270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functor Input (t :: RecordType) < 1262149275 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :results in a < 1262149293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signature { input :: IO t } < 1262149307 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By using Fields as seen in my photo < 1262149317 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It lets you do this: < 1262149318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have one complaint < 1262149329 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifying the type independently from the value seems blah < 1262149336 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are effectively identical < 1262149345 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo { a :: Integer, b :: String, c :: Bool } < 1262149359 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open (Input Foo) < 1262149367 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = input < 1262149369 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Result? < 1262149377 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./foo < 1262149386 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a= 2 < 1262149391 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b= foo < 1262149395 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c= abc < 1262149408 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invalid input. < 1262149415 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c= true < 1262149425 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that results in < 1262149431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 4 am, you're hard to folllow < 1262149436 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo {a=2,...etc < 1262149447 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ais523 get it? < 1262149449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... Pretty spiffy. < 1262149467 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I get it, and it's neat < 1262149470 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure < 1262149501 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The uber cool thing is how all this has no runtime penalty < 1262149509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting fact I just discovered: Google appears not to offer any search suggestions for searches beginning with "sexy". "sex" is fine, as is "sexiness", but not "sexy". < 1262149515 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Haskell fu helps < 1262149532 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Actually, as much as you're going to hate me for saying this, C++ helps too < 1262149533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: pretty much < 1262149539 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Btw, what do you mean by < 1262149543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Good God most of that is easily done at compile-time, isn't it? < 1262149554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copproSpecifying the type independently from the value seems blah < 1262149558 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yep. < 1262149582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: One of your earlier examples, if I read correctly, had you specifying the type and the value of the function redundantly < 1262149597 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I misread, my problem, not yours < 1262149598 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Redundantly? < 1262149602 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like how? < 1262149624 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Do you mean the < 1262149627 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signature < 1262149634 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : List < 1262149634 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:54:48] <ehirdiphone> type Vararg 0 = (); Vararg n = () -> Vararg (n-1) < 1262149636 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing? < 1262149636 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:55:00] <ehirdiphone> vararg 0 :: () < 1262149638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:55:10] <ehirdiphone> vararg 1 :: () -> () < 1262149639 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:55:42] <ehirdiphone> Implementation if vararg itself: < 1262149641 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:55:52] <ehirdiphone> vararg 0 = () < 1262149643 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:56:10] <ehirdiphone> vararg n () = vararg (n-1) < 1262149660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ah. That is only because the example is trivial < 1262149673 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1262149678 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my soon after printf example you could easily see the difference < 1262149682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262149710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wanted to make sure that a generic functor wouldn't have to specify its type independently from the value; one of the major issues with C++'s templates < 1262149719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I'm going to go buy some food < 1262149727 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just let the compiler infer the type! (yeah right, even haskell can't infer the type in all cases) < 1262149752 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(literally impossible for my Lang due to TC type system) < 1262149752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: yeah, they've added it for lambda functions but not for regular ones < 1262149754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1262149758 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1262149766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type inference is kinda impossible to do in the general case... < 1262149767 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you are confused < 1262149772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: no < 1262149773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even more so for TC types. < 1262149785 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Haskell sans typeclasses is inferrable totally < 1262149796 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You are confused < 1262149808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell sans typeclasses is perhaps even *trivially* inferrable. < 1262149826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently, a generic add functor in C++0x currently looks like this: template <typename T, typename U> auto add (T t, U u) -> decltype(t+u) { return t+u; } < 1262149830 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the redundancy? < 1262149839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least it's better than the current mess *shudder*) < 1262149840 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't say c++ < 1262149847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1262149847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, GADTs? < 1262149855 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:08:06] <coppro> just wanted to make sure that a generic functor wouldn't have to specify its type independently from the value; one of the major issues with C++'s templates < 1262149862 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: What about them? < 1262149863 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if Tom solved it or not < 1262149871 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1262149874 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type inference for functions that work on GADTs < 1262149876 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell inferrence < 1262149900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: lambda functions are allowed to infer types on bodies of "{ return foo;}", but IIRC this hasn't been added for normal functions < 1262149915 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1262149930 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copprojust wanted to make sure that a generic functor wouldn't have to specify its type independently from the value; one of the major issues with C++'s templates < 1262149933 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't see that < 1262149936 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xarify < 1262149938 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clarify < 1262149962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I just gave an example; "t+u" is redundant < 1262149972 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1262149986 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't get it but whatever < 1262149992 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compare to a lambda (no polymorphic lambdas atm): "[](int t, int u) { return t+u; } // inferred return type int" < 1262150001 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -> foo is the return type < 1262150011 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphoneIn my soon after printf example you could easily see the difference < 1262150014 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1262150022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it appears after the parameter declaration so the parameters are visible < 1262150031 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: When you pinger me snout the I ferrencr only being for lambda < 1262150052 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I think I'm assuming too much about your knowledge of C++ < 1262150057 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the lines I said before with out your c plus plus stuff < 1262150068 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realise you'd said them < 1262150080 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just continuing what I said with a quip < 1262150089 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262150095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1262150099 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about we restart altogether? < 1262150106 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter < 1262150127 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically: Make sure that in trivial cases, it's possible to specify a function without specifying the type in a redundant manner < 1262150130 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aiming to have no gc w my Lang! If it's possible < 1262150138 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Region inferrence instead :D < 1262150143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gc w? garbage collection with? < 1262150144 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be uber cool < 1262150148 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes < 1262150166 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1262150187 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always been interested in the notion of graph-based collection < 1262150210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd, among other things, let small integers use a full word < 1262150211 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically with the goal in mind that an object is destroyed as soon as its references become invalid < 1262150224 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No need for a tag so the gc knows what's a pointer < 1262150241 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And probably speed things up < 1262150250 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm actually leaving to get food now; if you have anything important to say, ping me or comment when I get back < 1262150262 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably wouldn't catch all things though < 1262150264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: If you can do it, then it would be quite nice. < 1262150265 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno < 1262150295 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: A cool thing arising from all this sweet language nectar: < 1262150330 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can malloc some memory, access it at will, realloc it, etc, with no runtime penalty, SAFELY. < 1262150369 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malloc :: (n::Int) -> MemBlock n < 1262150395 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ok, IO (Maybe (MemBlock n))) < 1262150415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1262150458 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the kicker? < 1262150466 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even ptr arithmetic < 1262150521 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ptradd :: (n::Int) -> MemBlock m -> MemBlock {n-m} < 1262150527 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or similar < 1262150532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignoring negatives < 1262150569 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*m-n < 1262150602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1262150621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :access :: (n::Int) -> MemBlock m -> {n < m} -> Int < 1262150642 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :called as (access n block) if no proof is required < 1262150658 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo dependent types < 1262150668 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-> IO Int < 1262150677 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you could use this language much like C. ... Except you're not going to shoot a foot with it. < 1262150736 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm targetting performance because Ur has quite a bit of this stuff and generates objects with little overhead, lots of speed and little memory usage in it's domain < 1262150749 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is web apps, oddly enough) < 1262150768 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependent types = can make more compile time assumptions < 1262150787 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you did some wizardy GHC style optimisation too? < 1262150790 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude. Fast. < 1262150802 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1262150838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Because of the annotations given to the compiler, optimization would be (relatively) easy. < 1262150862 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, if I had no gc and small ints took up the word arithmetic would be 1 instructiob < 1262150864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N < 1262150866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much less "checking to be sure this is safe", more with the "just transform it to the equivalent". < 1262150877 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not like 10 and a branch < 1262150881 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As with tagged ints < 1262150884 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1262150887 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No branch < 1262150892 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since stariv < 1262150895 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sratic < 1262150897 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Static < 1262150899 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still < 1262150908 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 vs 6 or so < 1262150917 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice speed up for number chrubchibg < 1262150925 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crunching < 1262150954 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: why thr dmilry? < 1262150956 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The < 1262150959 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smiley < 1262150960 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sj < 1262150962 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because = < 1262150970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shiws as sad in colloquy < 1262150996 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Iphone bitch. Be glad im not using text speak < 1262151041 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A compiler that does all the things I want will prolly be like 20,000 lines of haskell or more :-( < 1262151065 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe even 50,000—70,000 depending on compiler smartness < 1262151095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100,000 if I want readable error messages :P < 1262151209 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn this language is sweet :| < 1262151272 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even want to write the compiler in another language. Too many opportunities for sweet uses of the lang's features < 1262151298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you absolutely must write it in a different language, must be Haskell. < 1262151315 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or one of the MLs < 1262151316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just makes language implementation... Feel right. < 1262151326 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were designed for it after all :P < 1262151334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair point. < 1262151405 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(advantages of ML: Usually faster, module system (think e.g. compiler is a functor taking backend module), if I choose to make the language strict it matches the semantics better, that just feels... more right) < 1262151416 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is compelling too though < 1262151479 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that a worthy Emacs mode would be a mode to end all modes < 1262151505 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the largest piece of elisp ever. :P *shudder* < 1262151554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda has a really advanced emacs mode < 1262151567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will it allow impureness? < 1262151665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Monads. < 1262151689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, as well < 1262151691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's being strict < 1262151884 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No. < 1262151917 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe if you have "pragma unsafe" in your module and import Internals. < 1262151934 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have Internals.coerce :: a -> b < 1262151936 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1262151951 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But every module using yours must be pragma unsafe too < 1262151959 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's pointless, mostly < 1262151975 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I said interesting things right after you left < 1262151999 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I have to repeat them or do you have sufficient scrollback? < 1262152014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have scrollback < 1262152038 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coerce would actually be: < 1262152058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yeah, if you have well-defined evaluation order, "pragma unsafe" is perfectly reasonable. < 1262152073 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a::Type) -> (b::Type) -> a -> b < 1262152091 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you use that as (coerce x) < 1262152112 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just how you do forall in dependently typed langs < 1262152128 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably have shorthand for that < 1262152162 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh, iPhone problem, brb < 1262152200 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed < 1262152201 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ping < 1262152218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pong < 1262152224 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paddle < 1262152229 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay < 1262152271 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So! I hope you all now worship my language and know it will subsume and supersume every other language forever. < 1262152275 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: very interesting < 1262152290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: not until it has a really good impl < 1262152293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, more seriously, I hope you all now think my language is pretty cool. < 1262152322 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That would be my goal. :P < 1262152324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: does it compile easily into all TC esolangs? < 1262152337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it not want to tread on Underlambda's design space? < 1262152338 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Which part is very interesting? < 1262152345 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of it? :P < 1262152348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: region inference < 1262152350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REMOVE ALL OTHER LANGUAGES. THEY ARE INSUFFICIENTLY COOL. < 1262152369 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, but you can have a compile time BF compiler. < 1262152373 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With syntax. < 1262152384 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I want to clear up before I talk about the language as a whole; by "dependent types" you mean a function whose type can change based on the value of its arguments, correct? < 1262152393 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF[ ,[.,] ] :: IO () < 1262152418 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Not just functions. It is simply: types can take values as arguments < 1262152444 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full explanation is way back in the scrollback < 1262152454 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262152459 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loads logs < 1262152478 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Careful. It's been an hours-long explanation. < 1262152524 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw I haven't thought of a syntax at all yet. < 1262152535 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just been blending haskell and ml for this talk < 1262152546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: so, basically, template<int I> vs. template<typename T>? < 1262152582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except applicable to all types, not just a very small subset of those available) < 1262152594 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No! < 1262152600 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :( < 1262152605 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there, < 1262152614 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The value must be known at compile time < 1262152622 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so with dependent types < 1262152635 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet, no runtime penalty < 1262152636 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1262152644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, how? < 1262152651 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically < 1262152657 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say < 1262152663 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read an int from stdin < 1262152686 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And pass it to a function expecting an even number < 1262152687 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can erase all types into a NULL value, and then eval the real values like an untyped language < 1262152694 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must satisfy the compiler < 1262152698 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That it is even < 1262152710 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it can infer it if you do a branch < 1262152717 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failing that, DIY < 1262152727 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because you can't do case analysis on types) < 1262152731 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pass the proof argument yourself) < 1262152741 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... attempting another gross oversimplification here... encoding the range of values into the type? < 1262152748 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1262152761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like set of values, only it's allowed to be infinite < 1262152775 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: They are real values < 1262152775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can have loads of types which are similar except in the value sets, automatically generated < 1262152779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flesh and blood < 1262152798 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just have to manually satisfy them if the compiler can't < 1262152815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type of an object might be "even integer", whereas another object might be of the type "prime integer"; true or false < 1262152817 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we need an even number, pass a proof that it's even < 1262152828 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the value doesn't matter to the type < 1262152837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VoilĂ , dependency goes poof < 1262152852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, now I'm really confused < 1262152871 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's magic. < 1262152892 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't worry, it's pretty intuitive in practice < 1262152901 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a certain ACC quote which has never appeared more applicable to the situation < 1262152910 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feels like you're doing the impossible though < 1262152923 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Precisely < 1262152935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, I understand the notion < 1262153014 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, your job as the programmer is: when the compiler can't make inferrences about your values so that it does not matter what they actually ARE at runtime because the type is satisfied no matter what, < 1262153024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to prove it. < 1262153027 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262153042 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is just... Writing the code that shows it, basically) < 1262153060 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, it's pretty simple. < 1262153073 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just doesn't sound it. < 1262153081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I get the net effect < 1262153120 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even I don't know the actual inferrence algorithms. I'm going to defer breaking my head that much until I absolutely must < 1262153121 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's statically-enforced value control < 1262153152 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But also value liberator, remember the printf? < 1262153178 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"value liberator"? < 1262153220 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets you express stuff you can't otherwise < 1262153224 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like printf < 1262153227 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1262153250 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I admit I don't program in functional languages as much as I'd like, so bear with me here < 1262153283 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this looks to me a lot like pattern-matching being done at compile time, with an error if nothing matches < 1262153315 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you elaborate? My mind is rejecting that metaphor. < 1262153337 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My pattern matching experience is with Erlang, it may be different elsewhere < 1262153379 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1262153483 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Erlang, you could do something like printf ([%%, %d, RestOfString], [SomeInteger, RestOfArgs]) -> printAsInteger(SomeInteger), printf(RestOfString, RestOfArgs). < 1262153494 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1262153510 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type was pattern matching on the string < 1262153517 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But all functions have that < 1262153543 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was just a type with the kind (type's type) String -> Type < 1262153548 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262153555 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now, let's take a scanf example < 1262153576 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, you are pattern matching on the string and affecting the return type of the function < 1262153602 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Printf does that too < 1262153608 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The string affects the type < 1262153647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but scanf is a more interesting example < 1262153648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But continue < 1262153661 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so basically your idea is to be able to check this at compile time < 1262153680 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and complain if there's any chance there might be an error < 1262153694 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than simply waiting around and hoping things come out right < 1262153724 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262153736 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262153736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His plan is to have the type of printf be dependent upon the string given as its first argument. < 1262153739 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colloquy borked < 1262153741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His plan is to have the type of printf be dependent upon the string given as its first argument. < 1262153747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(repeated for sake of ehird) < 1262153751 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not understand your analogy < 1262153756 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262153759 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Saw it first time < 1262153763 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262153769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ... After you left? < 1262153777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got some crazy log-reading skills. < 1262153778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1262153800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it appeared to me to occur right after he arrived < 1262153807 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he may have caught it < 1262153809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darned latency. < 1262153817 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay IRC < 1262153849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copprorather than simply waiting around and hoping things come out right < 1262153855 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what pikhq said < 1262153858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: well... basically, suppose I do printf(some_user_string, 3) < 1262153859 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That he repeated < 1262153865 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Miss anything? < 1262153873 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Wait < 1262153880 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiting < 1262153897 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would simply give a type inferrence error < 1262153912 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this would work: < 1262153936 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if s == "%d" then printf s 3 else return () < 1262153940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262153945 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failing that... < 1262153950 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's proof time < 1262153967 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M < 1262153983 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure where the proof would go for printf actually < 1262153984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we're wasting our time < 1262153991 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Hm? < 1262153992 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, printf would be a nasty proof < 1262154002 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No need to prove printf. < 1262154024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just prove that (printf s) :: Integer -> IO () < 1262154027 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now I know we agree about the basics < 1262154027 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie < 1262154039 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That s is only constant output < 1262154048 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one formatting directive < 1262154061 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That takes an Integer < 1262154066 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1262154072 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But honestly? < 1262154088 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't pass a user string to printf, you dumb fuck. ;) < 1262154105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, that's when printf becomes most useful < 1262154116 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :localization, specifically < 1262154129 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a user strung < 1262154133 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String < 1262154142 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be loaded from a file < 1262154145 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compile those in, yo. < 1262154155 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parse the files at compile-time. < 1262154157 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 30 different languages? no thanks < 1262154172 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compile only the ones you need. < 1262154173 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, we're getting sidetracked < 1262154179 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1262154186 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively < 1262154210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a module signature Translation < 1262154213 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With eg < 1262154229 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big_error :: Integer -> String < 1262154234 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementation? < 1262154249 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're getting sidetracked < 1262154257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my basic question is how this relates to the notion of types < 1262154258 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big_error = printf "OLE OLE SUPER ERROR %d" < 1262154276 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using one of your examples, suppose I have a function that takes an integer that must be even < 1262154279 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use syntactic extension to make that nicer for the translators < 1262154284 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok back on track < 1262154292 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No < 1262154298 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong terminology < 1262154303 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262154309 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct terminology? < 1262154315 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't take Integer-that-is-even < 1262154322 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262154331 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You take Integer and that-Integer-is-even < 1262154343 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the latter hopefully being inferred by the compiler < 1262154350 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262154365 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes it feel even more Erlangish to me < 1262154368 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but w/e < 1262154368 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like having a type < 1262154377 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even (int) < 1262154387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even 2 has one value < 1262154390 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it poop < 1262154400 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop :: Even 2 < 1262154403 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1262154412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang: my_function (I) where is_int(I) and I mod 2 == 0 -> whatever < 1262154413 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even 1 has NO values! < 1262154423 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nothing) :: Even 1 < 1262154434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the compiler passes "poop" in < 1262154440 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the number is even < 1262154444 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It won't type < 1262154448 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1262154450 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will < 1262154453 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get it? < 1262154496 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262154510 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So < 1262154520 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we don't know the value of n < 1262154521 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The co < 1262154524 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mpiler < 1262154527 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so, for the purposes of the definition, which type is dependent on which value? The type of my_function is dependent on the value of n < 1262154528 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262154533 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cannot tell if (poop :: Even n) < 1262154537 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is well typed < 1262154547 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's where proofs come in < 1262154569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... so what is a "proof"? < 1262154575 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The type of the poop argument is dependent on the value of the number argument < 1262154587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: but the poop argument doesn't really exist < 1262154595 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1262154600 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1262154601 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me show you. < 1262154605 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262154616 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, can you just type in a pastebin rather than a picture? < 1262154624 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone actually < 1262154627 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one line < 1262154672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evenClub :: (n::Integer) -> {Even n} -> AwesomeParty < 1262154681 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{} is agdas notAtion for < 1262154690 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, btw, ZREO finished OoT finally; it's awesome < 1262154691 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infer vAlue if possible" < 1262154693 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO < 1262154697 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't talk btw < 1262154704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1262154717 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not talking about anything relevant < 1262154719 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When we do (evenClub 2) < 1262154725 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler does < 1262154735 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evenClub 2 {poop} < 1262154744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1262154748 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get it now! < 1262154751 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the third param must be of type Even 2 < 1262154759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262154761 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It checks that it is... VoilĂ ! < 1262154771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila! < 1262154776 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, the poop param is erased during compilation < 1262154784 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it is useless at runtime < 1262154793 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting way for it to be thought of, and I wonder if it's the correct one, but at least I understand now :) < 1262154808 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not thought of < 1262154815 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how it actually works < 1262154817 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1262154819 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in agda) < 1262154857 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue is that you need to make a type Even which is a drag BUT < 1262154883 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262154889 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IsTrue True = PoopHaven; IsTrue False = NoValuesForYou < 1262154898 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ syntactic sugar < 1262154903 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := tada? < 1262154918 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be < 1262154932 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{IsTrue (even n)} < 1262154938 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something < 1262154980 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So, hopefully you at least grok it as well as I do now. < 1262155001 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I now understand. < 1262155014 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole language pretty much clicked into place combining seeing Ur with my past musings < 1262155024 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I haven't fully sorted it out yet < 1262155028 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I question whether it would be more effective to attempt to accomplish the goal through a different mechanism < 1262155055 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Explaining it is the single most difficult part < 1262155072 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, of encoding a known subset of values into the type of an object < 1262155091 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262155097 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using it? Pretty easy. And a dependently typed lambda calculus is just a few lines of code onto a normal typed one < 1262155105 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Explain < 1262155133 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean what I think Iean that cannot accomplish remotely as much sscdependent types < 1262155143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're equivalent < 1262155164 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note, this is in the "this is a theory" form of "I think", not the "I'm pretty sure I'm right" form) < 1262155174 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe dependent types are the key to feather :P < 1262155184 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Can you still explain? < 1262155187 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I'll try < 1262155255 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, in your evenClub example, what you've actually done is included a "virtual" type (in the sense that the caller doesn't noticed it) to the signature < 1262155264 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: #agda is full of people who will know more than I btw if I don't grok it < 1262155266 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also < 1262155271 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irrelevant < 1262155273 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you < 1262155277 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: just wait < 1262155278 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remove the {}s < 1262155281 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then < 1262155290 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd just have to append " poop" < 1262155294 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To your calls < 1262155301 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just sugar < 1262155305 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I get that < 1262155312 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if it wasn't < 1262155320 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to debate the way Agda does < 1262155327 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to find another approach to the same solution < 1262155329 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then that would break if you remove the {}s < 1262155334 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1262155337 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are not mandatory < 1262155346 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is not equivalent < 1262155360 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember dependent types are more than just yes no < 1262155362 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea is that { Even n } is not seen as an extra parameter, but rather a constraint < 1262155365 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember printf? < 1262155372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, restate printf for me < 1262155382 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logs. iPhone. < 1262155388 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262155390 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262155396 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grep "type Printf" back up a line or two. < 1262155407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, different syntax < 1262155440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I think I get your point < 1262155450 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: how much do you know about C++ templates? < 1262155506 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not different syntax < 1262155510 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syntax is the sane < 1262155513 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same < 1262155524 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: A fair amount. < 1262155532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost did SKI once vm < 1262155538 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*once. M < 1262155544 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*once. < 1262155553 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI? < 1262155560 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: do you know what enable_if is? < 1262155591 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1262155595 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ski conbinatirs < 1262155600 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conbinatirs < 1262155608 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Com bi nat IRS < 1262155610 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRS < 1262155613 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oes < 1262155613 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262155616 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ors < 1262155617 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ors < 1262155617 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get it < 1262155622 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google it :p < 1262155690 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, well, enable_if is a template taking a boolean and a type; if the boolean condition is satisfied, a member type exists; if the condition is not satisfied, the type does not exist < 1262155712 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is in many ways similar to the use of a predicate in { Even n } < 1262155749 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only works for compile time constants < 1262155758 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but the principle is the same < 1262155761 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just handwave that away < 1262155775 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can if I consider only templates and not the C++ runtime < 1262155777 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole model I said is to make that work < 1262155782 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are TC < 1262155785 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No < 1262155788 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because < 1262155796 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like a run time type system < 1262155804 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can simply pass the actual value < 1262155809 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which we can't. < 1262155820 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, allow me to continue < 1262155857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember where he's going wit hthis < 1262155862 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right. < 1262155883 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of enable_if, you can implement arbitrary conditionals assuming appropriate predicates exist < 1262155898 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1262155898 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is another way of accomplishing the same task, and that is with restrictions on the arguments < 1262155921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a proposed feature for C++0x called concepts that would do exactly this; it would provide the ability to constrain template arguments < 1262155952 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on one level, it's largely sugar, but the underlying notion is different < 1262155968 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which must be compile time constant < 1262155977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but templates exist as a compile-time system < 1262155988 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you're doing is taking a hard problem < 1262156001 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Explaining the solution to an easy problem < 1262156006 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if dependent types can be implemented in the same way, with compiler-managed contraints rather than predicates < 1262156016 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And handwaving the rest away < 1262156017 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole C++ thing was an analogy; it's not perfect < 1262156019 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1262156056 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Bit < 1262156058 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But < 1262156065 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is more complicated < 1262156068 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf < 1262156070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it is < 1262156071 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the like < 1262156080 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Require them to be usable as values < 1262156095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're just introducing a new concept < 1262156111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh, I think I need to see a bigger example of your language before I can explain this more clearly < 1262156111 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without even any holes for propfs < 1262156115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proofs < 1262156127 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... Why? < 1262156128 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's hard to explain without a concrete base to work from < 1262156136 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the advantage? < 1262156144 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if there's an advantage < 1262156150 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :advantage?? < 1262156165 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I sought an advantage in everything I did, I wouldn't be here chatting, I'd be finished my backload of homework < 1262156189 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... Replacing an existing concept with a less simple one. And you have to keep the old one anyway. < 1262156194 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compelling :P < 1262156199 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you'd need to keep the old one < 1262156205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf < 1262156215 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a "constraint" < 1262156228 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's part of my issue; I'd need to see a complete example of printf < 1262156235 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just "here's my signature kthxbye" < 1262156239 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf "%d" 3 < 1262156247 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave more < 1262156247 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf "%d %d" 3 4 < 1262156258 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave the relevant type < 1262156267 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The magic that makes it work < 1262156273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not enough, at least not me looking through scrollback < 1262156278 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well. Just for %d) < 1262156281 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :append is a cool one < 1262156291 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's right after the printf signature you dolt < 1262156299 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1262156327 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 + m = m ; S n + m = S (n + m). < 1262156329 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] ++ ys = ys ; (x::xs) ++ ys = x::(xs ++ ys). < 1262156331 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see, I think I just misunderstood the synta < 1262156333 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*synatx < 1262156335 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*syntax < 1262156354 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_ : N -> N -> N, _++_ : Vector A n -> Vector A m -> Vector A (n + m) < 1262156367 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amazing that ++ typechecks < 1262156396 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: BUT CAN IT BLEND^WINFER < 1262156399 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1262156424 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Note that (x:xs) is cons < 1262156434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And [] == "" < 1262156455 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, hang on, I'm going to repaste this < 1262156479 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:58:20 <ehirdiphone> printf :: (fmt :: String) -> Printf fmt < 1262156481 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:58:39 <ehirdiphone> type Printf [] = IO () < 1262156484 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:59:33 <ehirdiphone> type Printf ('%':'d':xs) = Integer -> Printf xs < 1262156485 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:00:05 <ehirdiphone> type Printf (x:xs) = Printf xs < 1262156487 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that it? < 1262156492 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ya < 1262156496 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262156506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where does the type replacement come in to play here? < 1262156519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type replacement? < 1262156529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, the whatever < 1262156531 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny magic < 1262156536 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1262156543 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... < 1262156550 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1262156559 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so I'm stupid < 1262156569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nvm that < 1262156573 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you do? :P < 1262156590 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misunderstood the way functions work < 1262156599 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1262156615 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, "a b" is a left-associative operator that executes a on b < 1262156625 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1262156635 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for multi-arg functions, there's syntactic sugar in the declaration that creates a forwarding function with less arguments < 1262156636 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like f x y as f(x,y) < 1262156640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262156643 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ahh yep < 1262156644 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do < 1262156650 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x y as f'(x)(y) < 1262156650 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D:D:D:D:D:D:D < 1262156654 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f' ? < 1262156670 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ya welcome to currying < 1262156688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, my functional programming experience is sadly lacking :( < 1262156699 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No worries < 1262156706 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this helps clear up a lot, though all it ends up doing is making my idea a lot harder to express < 1262156714 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did it change your understanding? < 1262156724 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't see currying in printf < 1262156733 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely there's currying there < 1262156738 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what currying has to do with any of it < 1262156739 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where < 1262156746 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just think of < 1262156752 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x y as f(x,y) < 1262156756 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the doohickeys have 1 arg < 1262156766 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1262156768 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1262156771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YEAH < 1262156784 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In type Primtf's right Gand side < 1262156787 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hand < 1262156792 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it returns a function < 1262156801 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1262156805 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no? < 1262156805 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a type < 1262156816 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: For < 1262156817 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a function type < 1262156825 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A format string fmt < 1262156827 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf "%d" gives me an Integer -> IO, correct? < 1262156833 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262156834 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO () < 1262156841 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Yes. < 1262156845 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Printf "%d" = Integer -> IO < 1262156852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262156854 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO () < 1262156856 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: A < 1262156858 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in < 1262156867 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that was soupdragon < 1262156867 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A value if that type < 1262156877 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, nvm. Your nicks have a too-similar length < 1262156879 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro made no error < 1262156891 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf "%d" : Integer -> IO < 1262156894 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pooop < 1262156899 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262156903 0 :pooop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're welcome < 1262156942 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pooop: Okay, I'm going to try again and try to explain what I was trying to explain before, now with more knowledge of where it isn't relevant < 1262156955 0 :pooop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: By nickname laws I think you have to have sex with me now. If I was poop I'd need copro < 1262156961 0 :pooop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But pooop is coppro < 1262156966 0 :pooop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1262156966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1262156972 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cu < 1262156994 0 :pooop!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cu: EVADING THE LAW?? < 1262157008 0 :pooop!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262157023 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262157025 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262157046 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Repeat the line you said before the poop shit (which was crap) < 1262157053 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'm going to try again and try to explain what I was trying to explain before, now with more knowledge of where it isn't relevant < 1262157059 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grimaces < 1262157086 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any name for the use of {} in functions? < 1262157092 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I can use to conveniently refer to it? < 1262157103 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda probably has one. Lets call it zooping < 1262157114 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It bears some resemblence to the nomic use. < 1262157119 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but only someÂŁ < 1262157123 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262157132 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1262157134 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1262157160 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zoop is the argument or the action of Ingerring a value? < 1262157163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which < 1262157169 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter < 1262157172 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1262157178 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, when you zoop an argument, what you are doing is providing an imaginary argument that the compiler magically inserts based on some value < 1262157191 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real argument. < 1262157199 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imaginary in the sense that the user never sees it < 1262157201 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As real as any argument. < 1262157209 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, 100% real < 1262157216 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It exists. If you want to you can use it in the function < 1262157227 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no < 1262157238 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not based on some value < 1262157251 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is disconnected from dependentvtyping < 1262157273 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it handles it < 1262157294 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But {} does not require the type to be dependent. < 1262157301 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, let's step back, I just realized there's something I don't get < 1262157308 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it's not much use otherwise < 1262157313 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even n is a family of types, one for each integer, all sharing the same values? < 1262157327 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost right. < 1262157346 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the even ns share the same value, poop < 1262157356 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the odd ns have no values at all < 1262157371 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e you cannot have a value of type Even 1 < 1262157372 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262157405 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cu: All the compiler does is < 1262157407 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, my question is does this mechanism, specifically when used for zooping, have any advantage over a predicate that is used as part of the type matching? < 1262157413 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gives it "poop" < 1262157415 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it < 1262157420 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No magic < 1262157427 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yessir, I get that < 1262157480 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, no, except for being simpler, having an obvious way to pass proofs, and being the same mechanism that things like printf use < 1262157494 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of which make me very skeptical of your idea. < 1262157512 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so, ignore q1, that's sort of academic at this point as I'm trying to simplify it < 1262157518 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q1? < 1262157524 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point 1, whatever < 1262157526 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tired < 1262157532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point 1? < 1262157533 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point 2, I don't quite understand < 1262157539 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point 1 = simpler < 1262157540 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1262157541 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1262157547 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point 3, I'm not sure is related < 1262157553 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way to pass proofs is < 1262157565 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evenClub input {...} < 1262157576 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see < 1262157583 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was sort of missing that bit < 1262157585 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1262157591 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. If there is an {} arg at this position, {} passes one In explicitly < 1262157599 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, ok < 1262157599 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :puzlet < 1262157606 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262157611 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a thought < 1262157622 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you defined Even : nat -> * as a data type < 1262157628 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lack of information is a dangerous thing < 1262157631 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could maybe erase the index to get Even : * < 1262157644 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you've got a data type that represents even numbers < 1262157645 0 :puzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1262157654 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Yes < 1262157656 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's isomorphic to nat < 1262157663 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you erase the index tho? < 1262157675 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, just discovered a major flaw with ZREO's "official" OoT release < 1262157675 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The issue with that is < 1262157675 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just delete it in a text editor < 1262157680 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean automatically < 1262157682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna have to complain < 1262157683 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No convenient {...} < 1262157699 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: How < 1262157702 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets say < 1262157723 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262157730 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Even n | even n = Poopy; type Even _ = Lame < 1262157742 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of < 1262157742 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Even : nat -> * where EZ : Even Z ; ES : Even n -> Even (S (S n)) < 1262157743 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you erase the arg there? < 1262157757 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262157760 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can erase to < 1262157769 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Even : * where EZ : Even ; ES : Even -> Even < 1262157779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: totally boring tho < 1262157788 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to me < 1262157791 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a boring type for every constraint < 1262157834 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oot the zelda game? < 1262157836 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1262157839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: yes < 1262157848 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"release"? < 1262157852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZREO = Zelda Reorchestrated, an awesome project to redo Zelda music in awesomeness < 1262157858 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1262157860 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they released the OoT soundtrack today < 1262157880 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except half the Ocarina songs are Ocarina-only, and half are full music < 1262157890 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one way or the other I could see, but half-and-half? < 1262157915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I highly recommend downloading it, btw) < 1262157975 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262157987 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262158003 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language will have not only infix operators < 1262158011 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But prefix and postfix too :D < 1262158026 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6-style? < 1262158032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Agda style? < 1262158041 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My style. < 1262158050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't hold his breath < 1262158069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you have a style anyway < 1262158081 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just pre and postfix ops < 1262158123 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, agda allows you do define things pretty much however you want < 1262158146 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you research Agda in the time since I mentioned it? :P < 1262158169 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: yes. This is the Internet. I'm pretty confident you do the same thing from time to time. < 1262158170 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway whaddya mean < 1262158184 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl 6 is the only other language I could think of offhand that allows the definition of new infix, prefix, and postfix operators < 1262158184 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: All the time < 1262158192 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of others don't < 1262158228 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also tend to keep your mouth shut when something you don't understand comes up, thus increasing others' perception of you (I do this too, but you're way better at it) < 1262158248 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have that you can name a function (infix/prefix/postfix symbols) < 1262158263 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I thought I did the opposite xD < 1262158289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I mean something you don't understand AND can't readily Google < 1262158301 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfix ! :: Nat -> Nat < 1262158319 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ok. The only issue is the syntactical ambiguities that can arise < 1262158327 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you allow all three to be overloaded on the same operator < 1262158340 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two of the three is fine < 1262158350 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infix + :: {n::Type} -> {Num n} -> n -> n -> n < 1262158391 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefix ? :: {t::Type} -> Ref t -> SomeMonad t < 1262158417 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262158417 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'd just use operator precedence to disambiguate < 1262158427 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failing that, flag an error < 1262158431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ok < 1262158440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what method Perl 6 uses... something evil < 1262158452 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can define your own precedence and left right association) < 1262158455 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like haskell < 1262158471 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphoneinfix + :: {n::Type} -> {Num n} -> n -> n -> n < 1262158479 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice anything interesting? < 1262158499 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you defined your own keyword there? < 1262158505 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol < 1262158511 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1262158517 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does {n::Type} mean? < 1262158520 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore that part < 1262158522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inference of n's type? < 1262158537 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You know what (n::Int) means right? < 1262158546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1262158548 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int argument, magic dependent value n < 1262158556 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic dependent value? < 1262158561 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of it as "named n" < 1262158567 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes < 1262158585 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So n is thr value if the arg < 1262158587 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{} means infer the type, and let me refer to it as Type? < 1262158592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which we don't know ar that point < 1262158595 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ni < 1262158596 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1262158604 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Listen < 1262158613 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int :: Type < 1262158616 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is < 1262158623 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types are of type Type < 1262158626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why < 1262158639 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Printf :: String -> Type < 1262158664 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1262158668 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So {t::Type} is "a type t; infer value" < 1262158677 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how we do polymorphism! < 1262158687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so t becomes whatever the argument's type is? < 1262158693 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can use t later in the signature < 1262158696 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1262158706 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could I do {n::t::Type} ? < 1262158707 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we pass it an argument if a certain type < 1262158713 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This sentence is syntactically unambiguous. < 1262158721 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously t has to be that type! < 1262158724 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No < 1262158727 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1262158736 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is another argument < 1262158761 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infix + :: {n::Type} -> {Num n} -> n -> n -> n < 1262158768 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notice anything else interesting? < 1262158799 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an infix that appears to take 3 arguments? < 1262158811 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1262158812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Four actually. < 1262158819 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last n is the result < 1262158837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It's {Num n} < 1262158845 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how we do typeclasses! < 1262158855 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah, I'd worked that bit out < 1262158862 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1262158908 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason it was particularly plain to me that {Num n} meant that the type n is some number < 1262158937 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Were you around for the module system stuff? < 1262158955 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: no, but I am familiar with the notion of metatypes, which is why I think that bit came so easily < 1262158966 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's a different thing < 1262158970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait a sex < 1262158971 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1262158974 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sec < 1262158991 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link me to todays log please < 1262159007 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.12.29 < 1262159016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I didn't think they were related < 1262159020 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can findvwhere it is; it really is one of the best parts of the language IMO < 1262159022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that didn't quite come out right < 1262159033 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that the bit about open Foo? < 1262159087 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262159095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a lot mote before that < 1262159100 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why he feigns stupidity in this channel < 1262159104 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First use of "segue" in log < 1262159115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See if you missed any of it < 1262159123 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably so that guys have a chance to show how smart and alpha they are < 1262159242 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, now I remember another question I had, and realized you'd answered it < 1262159247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/realized/realize/ < 1262159253 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What question? < 1262159277 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Btw there's a blip in the module talk < 1262159285 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scroll down if you think it's over < 1262159296 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before "c=" < 1262159317 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not over < 1262159336 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I remembered that vaguely < 1262159346 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what was the question? < 1262159357 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you would have full-on type genericism < 1262159380 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1262159383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, the ability to make an entire interface dependent on another type < 1262159390 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like howso < 1262159396 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, clearly you can do by generating modules from functors < 1262159402 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like java genetics? < 1262159405 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Genetics < 1262159407 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fff < 1262159409 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262159421 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, yeah, old hat. Of course. < 1262159422 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java's genetics consist of a whole bunch of un-evolution < 1262159433 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1262159436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I just wanted to make sure you'd have a mechanism for that < 1262159451 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and actually, C++ templates is closer than Java generics, but w/e) < 1262159461 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1262159579 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been talking about this Lang for so long. Wow. < 1262159672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I'd give you an awesome explanation of one of the things the Lang will use but I've only really thought it out verbally :( < 1262159684 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try me < 1262159705 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it'd be 50000000 lines of typing. :P < 1262159712 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1262159719 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll snail mail you a cassette :D < 1262159765 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All this phone and I never speak into it. < 1262159826 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries the voice recorder < 1262159828 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262159999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1262160000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1262160450 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262160460 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What did I miss? < 1262160475 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1262160484 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did have one thing to say to you, but I forgot < 1262160519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I recorded a ~four minute explanation of the thing but it'd be in multiple parts < 1262160535 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you handle my unbroken voice????????//:: < 1262160540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not sure < 1262160564 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not squeaky! Just... Hovering. < 1262160596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to hemming-and-hawing? < 1262160600 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawlz < 1262160605 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just send it < 1262160609 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262160791 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262160802 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Sending them by email now < 1262160812 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262160823 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait for all three parts to arrive then set them up in a playlist or sth < 1262160830 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just software foibles < 1262160834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sth? < 1262160840 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would prefer it were continuous < 1262160844 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262160848 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Somethubg < 1262160851 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing < 1262160854 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=sth < 1262160856 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1262160867 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.m4a sorry. iPhones fault < 1262160896 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuk < 1262160966 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any arrived yet? < 1262160988 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negative < 1262161023 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My speaking skills are improving, not many ums or pauses in that < 1262161034 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or mistakes :P < 1262161099 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in spam maybe? < 1262161128 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're trying to sell me replica rolexes, no < 1262161140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rep1ica ro1exes < 1262161249 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is coppro @ gmail com right < 1262161257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262161259 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rideau3@gmail.com < 1262161266 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for spamming some random guy < 1262161270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1262161277 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262161292 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l o l < 1262161320 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: go to messages, hit propose or accept trade, fill in the form < 1262161371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, got it, and that's a /really/ weird channel-bounce < 1262161375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cross-server, even cross-protocol < 1262161386 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1262161398 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy to type /msg ais523 on a chat without tab-complete < 1262161420 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262161428 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remaile (har har funny pun) < 1262161435 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*remailed < 1262161460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: heh, I was just thinking that myself < 1262161487 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Propose or accept what what < 1262161492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA < 1262161494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tea%2C+earl+gray%2C+hot < 1262161518 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I was giving him advice for KoL < 1262161545 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KoL is kinda rubbish IMO :| < 1262161550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1262161557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watsa kol < 1262161561 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sorta the point < 1262161579 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Its meant to be shit don't you SEE" < 1262161584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: a rather low-tech MMO < 1262161596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1262161602 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Web based < 1262161610 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really just clicking yes a lot < 1262161615 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or going somewhere < 1262161626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then clicking fight a lot < 1262161638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly I play it for the fun in /games, to be honest < 1262161640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a moderate amount of strategy + a lot of boredom < 1262161645 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though it probably won't appeal to most everyone here) < 1262161672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a nice distraction < 1262161923 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262161971 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I realised that ais523 hates collectively-covering-costs cooperatives. Let's say membership dues = cost/members. This way, everyone pays the same money, and nobody gets rich. By recommending the service to someone who then joins it, the recommender pays cost/(members (members+1)) less each $interval, where members is the number of members before the new member is recruited < 1262161998 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this fair, collectivist cooperative is considered to be evil by ais523 :) < 1262162002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: it's not quite hate, it's more untrust < 1262162005 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did that get cut off? < 1262162010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it didn't < 1262162018 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ended at "member is recruited" < 1262162024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262162041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone recommends something to me and stands to gain from that, I treat it as a paid advert, rather than as freely-given advice < 1262162047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean it's unwelcome or bad, just untrustworthy < 1262162047 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So do you not distrust if nobody makes a profit? < 1262162061 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they don't make a profit per se < 1262162069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERYONE pays less < 1262162074 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's altruistic < 1262162087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes... but suppose you have two identical cooperatives < 1262162091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that you're in one of them < 1262162103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question here, I suppose, is why should I join the one with you in rather than the other one? < 1262162111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, suppose the other one has one more member but is otherwise identical < 1262162162 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you distrust profitless, collectivist cooperatives. < 1262162177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262162184 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Favouring instead recommendations that involve a business making a handy profit. < 1262162191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I distrust recruitment drives that would drive me towards one of them rather than a different one of them < 1262162194 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intriguing. < 1262162215 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But that's how they WORK! evryone pays an equal amount < 1262162219 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cost/members < 1262162222 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It < 1262162227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I don't hate the collective itself < 1262162230 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s the whole point < 1262162237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just mistrust /recommendations of which collective to join/ < 1262162244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a member of the collective itself < 1262162256 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing is < 1262162256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might still favour the entire concept over a for-profit company < 1262162307 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If soneone thought another service was superior they wouldn't reccommend theirs just for profit. They'd SWITCH to that alternative THRN reccommend them < 1262162321 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing otherwise is ridiculously nonsensical < 1262162329 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*THEB < 1262162336 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*THEN < 1262162455 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silence! < 1262162505 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw they're cooperatives not collectives < 1262162523 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if anyone's registered http://chicken.coop yet :D < 1262162534 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Negative < 1262162716 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Do you want my lovely voice explanations of frp, coppro iz ded :< < 1262162735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: frp? < 1262162746 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEY EXPLAIN IT WITH THE GRACE OF AN OSTRICH < 1262162755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: oh, that's a good argument, about switching < 1262162757 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Should I take that as a yes? :P < 1262162772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for something that's really switchable, I'll consider that to rebut my points < 1262162785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no, that's me asking you to explain frp before I decide whether I should ask you to explain it or not < 1262162788 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like hosting :p < 1262162794 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: _|_ < 1262162801 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a middle finger < 1262162813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an upside-down T? < 1262162820 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's bottom, your friendly nonterminating value! < 1262162837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Mudkipz < 1262162858 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bottom can also mean nil or false, depending on the language in question. < 1262162866 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1262162878 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never ever heard that. < 1262162882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the return value of a function with an infinite loop in < 1262162902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: in logic its not uncommon to find bottom for false < 1262162902 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually, errors are _|_ too < 1262162917 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop = error "blah" < 1262162921 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop is bottom < 1262162923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind-of a different sort of return value... < 1262162928 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1262162931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about throwing an exception past the caller to a handler outside? < 1262162946 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All types are TheType | _|_ < 1262162957 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you use Total FP < 1262162962 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's sub tc < 1262162976 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In the io monad < 1262162981 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, yep _|_ < 1262162996 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Want those audios? :-( < 1262163036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so this explains bottom, which almost certainly has its own unicode char < 1262163046 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1262163054 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logical false or sth < 1262163068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :âź‚ < 1262163078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually used for the geometric meaning, "perpendicular to" < 1262163083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_type < 1262163114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_element < 1262163170 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says common lisp's nil is a bottom. < 1262163178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which im not sure i buy, but whatever < 1262163209 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're a bottom. Er, I think this conversation just strayed into territory I don't want it to stray into. < 1262163214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i am, but. < 1262163215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt. < 1262163237 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like Bottom can be non-termination, but it can be other things as well < 1262163242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including null < 1262163253 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There are two chars iirc < 1262163261 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WANT THE AUDIO? < 1262163263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other things that might be conceived as non-termination in some abstract sense < 1262163268 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. not returning a value at all < 1262163270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: err, I don't see why audio's relevant < 1262163284 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The voice explanation of frp < 1262163297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer IRC < 1262163302 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOMEONE LOVE ME ;;;;;;;;;;;_;;;;;;;; < 1262163311 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but I already recorded it :p < 1262163321 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: i love you! < 1262163326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that special way < 1262163327 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not transcribing 4 minutes of speech :D < 1262163341 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the ephebophilic way? < 1262163350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, filebin.ca is still malware-blocked < 1262163358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no ofcourse not < 1262163360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just get around the block, but it feels wrong to do that somehow < 1262163361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be wrong < 1262163375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so so wrong < 1262163395 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Blocks are sacrosanct! < 1262163401 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I love comedic timing < 1262163483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOBODY LIKES MY VOICE ;;;;;;;;;_;;;;;;;;; < 1262163659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your voice is girly < 1262163672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i imagine people into girls like your voice < 1262163718 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1262163826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its ok < 1262163828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youre still adorable < 1262164232 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262164266 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262164270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wabi < 1262164478 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262164542 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My conversation died :( < 1262164549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1262164556 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was enjoying talking about that language < 1262164572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language < 1262164748 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 hours 12 minutes. I talked about it continuously for about that long. Wow. < 1262164757 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: My language. < 1262164766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which language is that < 1262164770 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine. < 1262164776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is? < 1262164783 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine. < 1262164785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1262164810 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you feel up to reading 4h12m of talk? < 1262164816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262164821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you summarize it please < 1262164825 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1262164827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262164887 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1262164889 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262165292 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262167134 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262169030 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262169042 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I had a brilliterrible idea. < 1262169097 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sort of thing ais523 would think of if he just generated ideas without honing on interesting things, I think < 1262169108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1262169115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neural analogies whatever next < 1262169122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I do do that, just most of the boring stuff gets discarded straight off < 1262169126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I never tell anyone then forget < 1262169150 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An Emacs X11 WM that actually makes the windows into Emacs buffers. < 1262169174 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the xemacs wm thing is just a wm written in elisp. Lame.) < 1262169180 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262169230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: heh, Blender works a bit like that < 1262169235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it seems to have stolen the Emacs WM < 1262169439 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be kinda cool actually < 1262169473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: imagine a modeline on a window < 1262169490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: heh < 1262169493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, what would the modes be < 1262169547 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, xwm-window-mode for one < 1262169562 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the oblig menus with actions and settings < 1262169574 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minor modes... hmm < 1262169593 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: xwm-floating-mode, perhaps? < 1262169610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's C-x 5 < 1262169618 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning? < 1262169625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-x 5 2, rather than C-x 2 < 1262169633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to create a floating rather than docked window < 1262169635 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new-frame or sth? < 1262169638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262169656 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would just open an emacs frame in an emacs buffer :D < 1262169710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the point is < 1262169713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your applications are buffers < 1262169718 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows < 1262169719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can swap them in and out of windows at will < 1262169724 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not applications < 1262169732 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You misunderstand < 1262169738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you mis-emacs < 1262169754 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X11 windows would be drawn in their own BONAFIDE emacs buffer < 1262169760 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not emacsalike < 1262169767 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually an emacs buffer < 1262169782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I meant too < 1262169794 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Root window = emacs, no window management done on it PFC < 1262169797 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IFC < 1262169800 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ofc < 1262169803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one window produced by an application under a normal WM = one Emacs buffer < 1262169810 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262169853 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there shall be only One emacs window; for lo, that is what the Prophet did spaketh unto ya < 1262169860 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*us: < 1262169892 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: err, no < 1262169894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-x 2 is two emacs windows already < 1262169901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need emacs windows to put the buffers in < 1262169904 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If Emacs be the heritor of thou'st windows, is it not therefore a Sin to have Emacs begat itself?" < 1262169917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/every/ window is an Emacs window < 1262169928 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There shall be only one Emacs window, and it shall be the root. < 1262169934 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: X11 window < 1262169937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1262169940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about emacs window < 1262169948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do extra emacs frames, though? < 1262169955 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't < 1262169961 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might think about doing it < 1262169963 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno < 1262169968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's losing possibilities you have with emacs's wm at the moment < 1262169979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ability to create a floating frame that works independently of the others < 1262169980 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but Emacs is tiling. < 1262169986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tiling and floating < 1262169996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I wonder if C-x 5 o works? < 1262170008 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. Emacs itself is tiling < 1262170021 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other WMs do the floating < 1262170031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ok < 1262170035 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an emacs wm should do as emacs does < 1262170038 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... this is a tricky one < 1262170039 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And only tile < 1262170052 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BUT < 1262170062 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If floating is to be offered < 1262170095 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be recognised as a heresy unique to the Xfolk; lacking as the result is in Emacs mannerisms, < 1262170108 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being an unadorned Xdevil, < 1262170130 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on — it is of the Xwindow. < 1262170157 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, xwm-floating-mode. Q.E.D. < 1262170186 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the model here emacs frames "don't exist" < 1262170193 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like an emacs os < 1262170199 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs is the interface < 1262170218 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frames become an implementation detail; only one, as the root window. < 1262170240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, but a floating-mode window makes absolutely no sense in that case < 1262170242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it isn't anywhere < 1262170247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from Emacs' point of view < 1262170259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you couldn't select it, you couldn't close it, you couldn't create it < 1262170265 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is "in" emacs because emacs' size is that of the screen < 1262170283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's in a different frame < 1262170285 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you focus it the invisible corresponding buffer is too < 1262170292 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No such thing. < 1262170296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1262170297 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementation detail. < 1262170298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus it isn't there at all < 1262170312 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows are Emacs' forte. Frames it thinks of not. < 1262170313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't in the root frame because you can't get to it by recursively picking top, left, etc... windows < 1262170327 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is omnipotent and sovereign over them. < 1262170332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it would make no sense for C-x o to /cycle/ to it < 1262170338 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1262170340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it did, what would C-x 2 do? or worse, C-x 1? < 1262170354 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Its like a buffer not in the frame < 1262170357 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1262170359 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :View < 1262170361 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know < 1262170371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: oh, in that case, it wouldn't render at all < 1262170372 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in the tiling buffer arrangement < 1262170381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd have no way of focusing on it < 1262170390 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes it would because we coded it that way < 1262170392 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1262170550 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1262171270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi oerjan < 1262171275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehirdiphone < 1262171292 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Good luck logreading < 1262171304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1262171310 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 hrs 12 mins continous talk about my language < 1262171312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just searched for my name today < 1262171328 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You missed out on so much :( < 1262171332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/name/nick/ < 1262171339 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Issue < 1262171358 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your emacs buffer list would be polluted. Cool for window managing < 1262171360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? I'm about to go home to sleep < 1262171362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, i usually only read the whole log when it is short < 1262171363 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suck for editing < 1262171379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: really? I often have over 30 or so buffers open < 1262171383 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it has haskelly type theory! < 1262171385 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely kill them, you see < 1262171391 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, ok < 1262171395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't use the buffer list at all, except by mistake < 1262171397 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what to name them! < 1262171400 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1262171406 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The window title? < 1262171417 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"title - prog"? < 1262171423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with asterisks around it if it's not meant to be saved < 1262171433 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"title - prog [xwm]" < 1262171434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you should be able to save buffers even if they contain windows < 1262171442 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: uh. No. < 1262171452 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ugh, it'd be ugly < 1262171464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the semantics are wrong < 1262171472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could hook it up to cryopid or something, I suppose < 1262171475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did see the comment about it being more CS than haskell. which actually leaves me suspicious if you are over your head, since my understanding is that creating a sound type system more advanced than haskell's (or even equal) is _hard_ < 1262171477 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**reddit - what's new online! - Mozilla Firefox** < 1262171486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in over your head < 1262171486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ideally, just have the programs that run be easy to escape < 1262171499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Firefox is a big example of something that should save < 1262171500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I know it is possible. Agda and Ur do it. < 1262171516 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You can't coherently save tetris f.e. < 1262171516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, it has a save-tabs-on-closing option, this would be the same thing < 1262171519 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262171528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: yeah, but i'm assuming there were phd theses involved :D < 1262171529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: really? I've seen pieces of hardware that could < 1262171530 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a wm not an os < 1262171532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pause, turn it off < 1262171534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the very least < 1262171541 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: M x tetris < 1262171542 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cant you just make sure that you are within the formal boundaries established by hindley-milner typing? < 1262171551 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And they're open source < 1262171551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I really had better go < 1262171555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262171557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, more power to you if you can pull it off < 1262171558 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: I exceed those boundaries < 1262171560 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262171564 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC type system < 1262171573 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W/ dependent types < 1262171584 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent read the immensely huge backscroll so i wont make you explain it all again if you already have < 1262171628 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i guess i lost most of my backscroll from my mouse button forkbombing me < 1262171640 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: maybe I'll just submit the spec and compiler as a phd thesis to MIT or somewhere without being admitted :D < 1262171655 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easiest doctorate evar < 1262171710 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but yeah, it won't be easy < 1262171755 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what it's so damn awesome :| < 1262171757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: it is the soundness proof of your type system i am worried about. not that i know how to do those myself < 1262171803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you simply steal an already existing one, you'll have to redo it, and i understand it's quite technical stuff < 1262171805 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If type checking can bottom out surely it's unsound by some definition < 1262171834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in the cannot-go-wrong sense, i think < 1262171842 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incomplete < 1262171848 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bottoming out is going wrong to me < 1262171854 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsound would be like, 3 : String < 1262171883 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be one of either < 1262171891 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably incomplete < 1262171895 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan the fun with dependent types is you need to interleave the value normalization proof < 1262171899 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. Sound < 1262171909 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: ouch < 1262171924 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'll contract a phd out to do the proof :) < 1262171943 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just assume it's sound xD < 1262171956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: what soupdragon said. non-termination is fine, except i also recall reading that dependent typing has trouble if your _types_ can bottom out, because then you need to actually evaluate the proofs in the runtime program, you cannot remove that stuff during compilation < 1262171979 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types bottoming out as in < 1262171983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if a proof of well-typed-ness can bottom out, then it is invalid < 1262171992 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo Integer = _|_ < 1262171993 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262171996 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um proofs of types, i guess < 1262171997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262172011 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262172013 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1262172014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not dependent. < 1262172023 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262172047 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I was thinking of using a total subset < 1262172052 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the proofs < 1262172173 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I think my type system is likely incredibly similar to say agda < 1262172179 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just different notation < 1262172232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall some mention of using a monad to encapsulate non-termination < 1262172260 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :codata Computation A where Now : A -> Computation A ; Later : Computation A -> Computation A < 1262172276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it would presumably be fine, since types are not in that monad, or something < 1262172285 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can race omega many of these for a fixed point < 1262172288 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :least fixed point < 1262172369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um shouldn't the _result_ be an A for some option? < 1262172393 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262172410 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't want to make partiality a monad < 1262172440 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm my type system is probably closest to epigram < 1262172457 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming more than proofy and haskellsimilar as it is < 1262172460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was for epigram i heard that mention, i think < 1262172473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what mention? < 1262172478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the monad < 1262172492 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262172492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it was not something implemented, iirc < 1262172494 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1262172506 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-7-85.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262172512 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used it in haskell to write (even more) lazy programs < 1262172513 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just makes code awkward having a partiality monad :p < 1262172515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just an idea for making epigram practically TC < 1262172537 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point I surrender safety for practicality < 1262172554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the partiality monad is that point < 1262172568 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I have no idea how to do even simple proofs about termination for the partiality monad < 1262172594 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait, isn't epigram tc? < 1262172604 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're thinking of that other Lang < 1262172607 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Charity < 1262172622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: i thought epigram was a total language < 1262172646 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. Maybe epigram 1 is but 2 not? Dunno < 1262172655 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe both are total < 1262172680 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a weird question, the function space is total but you can still define things like turing machines, mu-recursive functions and their operational behavior < 1262172685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION may very well be confused, has only read discussions (on ltu mostly?) and that was long ago < 1262172711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well one step of a turing machine computation is total... < 1262172734 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you can take the transitive closure of it though < 1262172753 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop. < 1262172765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: hm? < 1262172796 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway ur works and only has one phd behind it < 1262172802 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rest my case :p < 1262172833 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ur isn't actually dependently typed is it < 1262172849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is? < 1262173207 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1262173245 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: it does have type-level programming that constructs values. I'd be surprised if it wasn't dependent < 1262173266 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I could compile it :| < 1262173277 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't you? < 1262173293 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soem error to do with gmp or something < 1262173313 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll fix it gimme ssh :P < 1262173660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262173763 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262175675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1262175824 0 :cheater!n=gast@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262175830 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi guys < 1262175865 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone got a working implementation of Piet or a similar lang? < 1262180652 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262180706 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262181211 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262181233 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"..." < 1262182145 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262182181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, ehird's not here? < 1262182218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if you see this, know that the penultimate story of Fine Structure has been published. < 1262182223 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262183728 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262184787 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1262184959 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262185144 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-98-222.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262185640 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262190469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yowza. < 1262191859 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-34-102.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262192459 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262193562 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262193667 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262193831 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262196876 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262197760 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262200873 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262201540 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262203398 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262203841 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262204193 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1262204359 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<cheater> has anyone got a working implementation of Piet or a similar lang? < 1262204376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you checked the author's home page at http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/tools.html ? < 1262205270 0 :brado!i=56936dfa@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqwelloaqdnnekod JOIN :#esoteric < 1262205295 0 :brado!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262205694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: see above ^ < 1262210155 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262210185 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262210330 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-211-145-161.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262211684 0 :Fredrik1994!n=FIQ@213-67-76-113-no52.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262211689 0 :Fredrik1994!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262213050 0 :MAKACOW!i=makacowd@200-100-212-76.dial-up.telesp.net.br JOIN :#esoteric < 1262213382 0 :MAKACOW!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262214908 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262215126 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262216082 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262217022 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262217378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, dmm made piet!? < 1262217383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262217444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1262217470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and several others < 1262217554 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/ < 1262217746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262217763 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262218084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I do know he made several others < 1262218086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not piet < 1262218143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262218184 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262218204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html <-- heheh < 1262218771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Whenever <-- I wonder if it is TC. < 1262218839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1262218897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I would say "probably, except I can't see how to do infinite memory" < 1262219042 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 again(condition) -1 < 1262219069 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N(1) is a value with infinite possible values < 1262219082 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the program can be terminated by making the condition false < 1262219105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1262222080 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262223378 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262223448 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262224123 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262224141 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://underhanded.xcott.com/?p=18 It's back, bitches! < 1262224326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is. < 1262224352 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262224423 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262224476 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sky is made of donkeys. < 1262224520 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Contemplating how best to do that... < 1262224676 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262225114 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write the program correctly with dependent types to make sure it's correct. Also, use type system metaprogramming to generate repetitive parts of the code. Introduce a mistake into the types that causes the metaprogrammer to output the wrong code. < 1262225118 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1262225241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1262225381 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how feasible getting X clients to draw in the right pixels over an Emacs frame is. < 1262225409 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, does X let you focus two windows at once...? < 1262225444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall that X allows you to embed a client into another client... < 1262225487 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that'd involve hacking Emacs to let buffers be X embedders instead of text buffers. < 1262225504 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I would rather be buggered by a goat. < 1262225746 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If I make an Emacs X11 WM you can run even less software under X! XD < 1262225779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ratpoison? Pah! Can ratpoison play tetris? It is an inferior imitation of Emacs! < 1262225816 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switching to buffers in the same way as windows in one step would be sweet, actually. < 1262225833 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might even use the wm. < 1262225901 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you used one of Emacs' terminals and ERC you could run just Emacs(with wm)+conkeror without missing out on anything. < 1262225945 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could even hook Conkeror up to the Emacs minibuffer and hide its own. XD < 1262226164 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262226386 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262226643 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262227935 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262228022 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played a game, called "Return to Ditch Day", in which there is a puzzle where you have to type up to sixteen characters (0-9+A-F) only on a computer (a Commandant 64), and you have to make it put output the same as the input. < 1262228044 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eventually figured it out, each number means a command, and you have to write a quine program. < 1262228131 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds awesome < 1262228151 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-78-50.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262228184 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I earned 50 bonus points for doing so. It is not necessary to solve that puzzle to complete the game, but I got 50 extra-credit points, which are not added to the normal score, but is listed separately instead. < 1262228331 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Return to Ditch Day" is really a good computer game, you might try it one time < 1262228342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have not completed it yet) < 1262228400 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have not yet won the game, but I liked the parts I have played so far) < 1262228474 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1262228528 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1262229034 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262229312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262229407 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262232400 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the introduction good? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/html/main.html http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/intro.irm < 1262233355 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262233367 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html < 1262233375 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if you could use x as unit < 1262233380 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :init < 1262233402 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262233405 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have it run a terminal or w/e with the actual inif < 1262233411 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Init < 1262233418 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be a smoother boot < 1262233666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any reason why X *couldn't* be init, actually. < 1262233783 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... If x goes down the kernel will panic. < 1262233799 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So better write a wrapper script. < 1262233836 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs X in a loop, if it fails to start at some point wait a minute before trying again. < 1262233847 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps wait for a signal to continue. < 1262233861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just accept the panic. < 1262233865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1262233868 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :P < 1262233872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCREW STABILItY. < 1262233906 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: X as init, running Emacs running COMINT or w/e running the init scripts. < 1262233916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1262233922 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it runs login. In COMINT. < 1262233934 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. Not login. < 1262233936 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION panics < 1262233938 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M-x login < 1262233953 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is like EmacsDM! < 1262233987 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fill in your details, hit RET, and Emacs disappears. Then YOUR emacs appears. < 1262234007 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running my emacs wm, naturally. < 1262234025 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VoilĂ : the entirely X11Emacs-based Linux system. < 1262234101 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a genius. < 1262234129 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder how hard it is to get emacs to ignore all non-editing commands. < 1262234145 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't want people messing with EmacsDM. < 1262234534 0 :Oranjer!n=HP_Admin@adsl-71-18-51.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262234540 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmph < 1262234551 0 :Ienpw_III!n=Ienpw_II@CPE0013f7ac027c-CM0013f7ac0278.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262234558 0 :Ienpw_III!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hey coppro < 1262234576 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1262234605 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1262234737 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haxney.org/2009/08/its-alive.html hmm. Prior art. < 1262235591 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262235838 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262236002 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1262236272 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262236281 0 :Ienpw_III!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262237164 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha... man, that's a bug in the Criminal code < 1262237168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/c/C/ < 1262237221 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1262237348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a complex set of exceptions for when sexual activity with minors is okay, but this doesn't apply to indecent exposure to minors < 1262237376 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wrong channel < 1262239179 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did ehird see what I wrote? < 1262239184 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter now, I need sleep < 1262239245 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No indication that he saw anything < 1262239381 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird will see what yo uwrote < 1262239384 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's a logreader < 1262239414 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I checked the log, doesn't look like he said anything related to what I wrote < 1262239422 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I was only checking for my own name, so < 1262239423 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey ehird you're a big stinking patooe < 1262239428 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was on his iphone < 1262239431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he wouldn't have read it form there < 1262239433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from < 1262239434 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if he will see that < 1262239434 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1262239451 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night all < 1262239468 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1262240844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262240855 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262240930 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I logread on my iPhone. < 1262240934 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh noes < 1262240974 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262240996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1262241007 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there you go < 1262241527 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262241778 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262241933 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it sad that one of the things I look forward to most with the New Year is a webcomic update? < 1262242635 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262242916 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262242965 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262244865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262244892 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262245194 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262246399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1262246400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1262247051 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262247056 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :progenitorial teacups < 1262247157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1262247176 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally. < 1262247218 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mind buzzes too much, i need a stop thinking button < 1262247234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try sleeping < 1262247252 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want a problem to solve < 1262247253 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262247256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do something that requires a lot of concentration, say certain computer games < 1262247257 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logic < 1262247270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sleep makes me unconscious < 1262247286 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't experience buzzinglessness < 1262247312 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: doubtful I'll be any good. Quite tired but go on < 1262247344 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five girls each make two statemens, one true one false < 1262247369 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Betty: ``Kitty was second in the examination. I was only third.'' < 1262247369 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ethel: ``You'll be glad to hear that I was on top. Joan was second.'' < 1262247369 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Joan: ``I was third, and poor old Ethel was bottom.'' < 1262247369 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Kitty: ``I came out second. Mary was only fourth.'' < 1262247369 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Mary: ``I was fourth. Top place was taken by Betty.'' < 1262247375 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what order did they really come in? < 1262247422 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is solving it with code permissable < 1262247427 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1262247464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, so the exercise is "remember basic prolog syntax" < 1262247477 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not allowed to solve it with code < 1262247494 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the obvious prolog program doesn't work < 1262247506 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which in this case is equivalent to "remember the syntax for or" < 1262247513 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that doesn't work < 1262247530 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: you just said the opposite < 1262247538 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes code no code < 1262247544 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be consistent < 1262247546 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I changed my mind < 1262247552 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of <ehirdiphone> great, so the exercise is "remember basic prolog syntax" < 1262247584 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: how come, it's just a set of constraints (p | q) < 1262247600 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there is only one right answer < 1262247620 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you interpret the first rule as like, (Kitty = 2, Betty \= 3);(Kitty \= 2, Betty = 3) < 1262247626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why wouldn't prolog work? < 1262247651 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wont work alone, you'd have to start with permutation(Girls,[1,2,3,4,5]) < 1262247658 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err or just: < 1262247686 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that algorithm is bad because you can't interleave the generator < 1262247686 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kitty=2) XOR (betty=3) < 1262247704 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shrugg < 1262247728 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not making me think *less* < 1262247746 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1262247768 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262247782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three-valued logic in Prolog is annoying < 1262248727 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine < 1262248740 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's avoidable ? < 1262248750 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I am not sure what it means < 1262249010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's when you have true/false/unknown as logic values < 1262249028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or in the case of a data bus true/false/I've been told to shut up so other people can talk) < 1262249094 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prologs not really about values though more about provability I think < 1262249283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1262249290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, sometimes you want to write programs in it :) < 1262249885 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.pasteit4me.com/94033 < 1262249888 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my solution < 1262249903 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqlite> .read girls.sql < 1262249903 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kitty|joan|betty|mary|ethel < 1262249924 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be better if SQL had XOR.. < 1262250270 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.122.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262250290 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: using views is so cheating for SQL esolanging < 1262250322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, you can use any feature of a language not designed for programming if trying to program in it < 1262250354 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but views are basically functions sort of < 1262250364 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just paste the definiton of the view to get rid of it... < 1262250366 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :takes away all the relational fun < 1262250378 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: shaddup :P < 1262250383 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1262250390 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you actually use views as functions? < 1262250392 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to < 1262250472 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be mistaking views for sth else. Tired. Relink your paste < 1262250473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262250483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See if I read it right < 1262250497 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.pasteit4me.com/94033 < 1262250611 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CREATE TABLE girls ( girl string ); < 1262250614 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1262250623 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the DELETE < 1262250627 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superfluous < 1262250690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you're trying to solve the problem in /SQL/? < 1262250702 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He DID solve it in SQL < 1262250705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1262250709 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and prolog http://www.pasteit4me.com/94034 < 1262250713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a great choice of language < 1262250791 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what other languaes should I do it in? < 1262250812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: prolog is just TC relational < 1262250825 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it in a really stupid way with CHR too < 1262250831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: what do you mean? < 1262250831 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and SQL is just brutalised relational < 1262250845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it now < 1262250845 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean it literally < 1262250855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I first had problems parsing your sentence < 1262250864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog literally is a relational DB < 1262250867 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :statement(first(G)) ==> statement(not(second(G))), statement(not(third(G))), statement(not(fourth(G))), statement(not(fifth(G))). < 1262250868 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just TC < 1262250872 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules like that < 1262250878 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and statement(P), statement(not(P)) <=> false. < 1262250878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, you mean it works relationally, modified/enhanced so that it's TC < 1262250886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: what's your opinion on cut? < 1262250889 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very elegant < 1262250899 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1262250903 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1262250904 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: dunno < 1262250904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's nicely eso < 1262250906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi asiekierka < 1262250925 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is there an elegant theoretical model with cut < 1262250938 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, it's a hack ;) < 1262250943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1262250952 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without cut it's monadic < 1262250957 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a common-way-to-implement which probably has a theoretical model behind it < 1262250972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc it's more elegant without, but with it's nicely interesting < 1262250994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, Borland Turbo Prolog had "nonlocal cut"; there was a built-in predicate that did a cut /somewhere else/ in your program) < 1262250997 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both stack and stream implementations have a (relatively) simple implementation of cut < 1262250999 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I think is truly inspired) < 1262251014 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very operational thing though < 1262251060 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if nonlocal cut is prologs come from < 1262251068 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's goto? < 1262251177 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess just cut < 1262251191 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any link < 1262251191 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1262251201 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about strongly typed prolog? < 1262251226 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it?? < 1262251235 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm inventing it. < 1262251240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Borland Turbo Prolog was strongly typed, but very inferior < 1262251242 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1262251245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it didn't let you assert predicates at al < 1262251247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all < 1262251250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus missed out on half the fun < 1262251253 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are not inventing it < 1262251270 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Borland Turbo X is usually inferior :( < 1262251274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case you wanted to be able to do that, the compiler shipped with a Prolog interp written in Turbo Prolog, and told you to use that) < 1262251276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: agreed < 1262251290 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1262251294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... we should make an esolang < 1262251301 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how ? < 1262251304 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on Borland's compilers < 1262251308 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1262251309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, it tended to be inferior in language terms, but faster < 1262251327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... try imagining something that's similar to MySQL but actually achieves its design goals < 1262251331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that sort of concept < 1262251346 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to get interesting strong prolog types < 1262251353 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in actually useful ones < 1262251353 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting ?? < 1262251356 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell < 1262251360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, clang is getting spell checking < 1262251361 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's awesome < 1262251365 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1262251374 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw you know lambda prolog ? < 1262251394 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mortal(mydog). mortal(X):-man(X). < 1262251415 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :socrates < 1262251415 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mortal : ?atom <--- BORING TYPE < 1262251424 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dog. < 1262251468 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :begat(god,adam). begat(adam,eve). begat : ?atom,atom < 1262251473 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOORING < 1262251494 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically just the number of params, those < 1262251518 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAWN < 1262251556 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PRECISELY < 1262251573 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1262251578 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said /tries/ < 1262251585 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how can we get interesting types? As in what do we actually include in the types < 1262251589 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's lots of types in prolog already < 1262251600 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lambda prolog is strongly typed < 1262251621 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme example lambda prolog type < 1262251622 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like CHR you can define algebraic types, which helps the compiler < 1262251652 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type succ (((i -> i) -> i -> i) -> ((i -> i) -> i -> i)) -> o. < 1262251659 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ (N\F\X\ (N F (F X))). < 1262251680 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1262251692 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1262251704 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type flatten list (list A) -> list A -> o. < 1262251717 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokoko < 1262251727 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o. < 1262251754 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type curry tm -> tm -> o. < 1262251755 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry (fix F \ (abs X \ (A (fst X) (snd X) (prp X) < 1262251755 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (R \ S \ (app F (pr R S)))))) < 1262251755 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (fix F \ (abs Y \ (abs Z \ (A Y Z truth < 1262251755 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (R \ S \ (app (app F R) S)))))). < 1262251764 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a cool one < 1262251768 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in lambda prolog < 1262251779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the lambdas like, first class < 1262251783 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1262251797 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's got higher order unification < 1262251800 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262251815 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have compose(Lam,Lam) f.e. < 1262251846 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because compose((lambda),X). would be... 'interesting' < 1262251904 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm I wonder what you'd call the operation of making two definitions in prolog < 1262251909 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I'd < 1262251910 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is < 1262251921 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- chr_type tree ---> empty ; leaf(int) ; branch(tree, tree). < 1262251926 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an algebraic type in CHR < 1262251931 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- chr_type list(T) ---> [] ; [T | list(T)]. < 1262251944 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo((\socrates. true),(\X. man(X)) < 1262251944 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::- chr_type color ---> red ; blue ; yellow ; green. < 1262251961 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I guess it's just fall through on failure < 1262251970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still an interesting hof < 1262252046 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can mode +, -, ? constaints < 1262252056 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or/as well as type them) < 1262252142 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is lambda prolog curried? < 1262252145 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262252152 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1262252158 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's elite < 1262252161 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1262252171 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means that it has return values < 1262252171 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher order unification is to sick < 1262252179 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly it should instead be < 1262252206 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(blah,P). P(arg2,Q). Q(arg3). < 1262252206 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't understand to program with it < 1262252209 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1262252217 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1262252229 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that with --> stuff < 1262252236 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...... < 1262252246 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a different language < 1262252267 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shut < 1262252269 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit < 1262252273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of Reddit talking about StackOverflow talking about the --> operator in C++ < 1262252442 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262252512 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, read it like ::= < 1262252813 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1262252816 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am making a pootube yoop < 1262253195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262254693 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka-39 < 1262254838 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-228.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262256461 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262256627 0 :leonid_!n=leonid_@116.39.191.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262256698 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262256796 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262256833 0 :leonid_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262257265 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262258469 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262259678 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262260101 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261331 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-226.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261419 0 :pikhq_!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261478 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261478 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261478 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261478 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261479 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261479 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261479 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261479 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262261485 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean operators are just tables from a{0,1}^2 < 1262261521 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-78-50.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-34-102.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@wikipedia/PuzzletChung JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-226.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262261521 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262262169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1262262177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1262262186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, will you be around during midnight? If not I guess I should say happy new year in advance < 1262262207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, and happy new year back again < 1262262229 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 what do you think of SQL < 1262262235 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1262262240 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about you? < 1262262264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: I think it's been standardised a bit awkwardly, but that it's a decent language for accessing relational databases, and not really good for anything else < 1262262289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1262262378 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :No route to host < 1262262430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, hm? < 1262262454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, SQL: I don't know of any standard following implementation < 1262262472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there probably is one, iirc Mimer SQL manages fairly well < 1262262480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even it is not 100% standard following iric < 1262262482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc* < 1262262503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reason I know about the wierd software called Mimer SQL is that it was used in a database course at university) < 1262262533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I much prefer postgresql if I have to use one) < 1262262554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is fairly verbse < 1262262557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verbose < 1262262558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1262262561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language SQL I mean < 1262262664 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL syntax is based on COBOL < 1262262693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, is that really true? As in official? < 1262262705 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an observation < 1262262710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1262262762 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sqlite.org/images/syntax/create-table-stmt.gif < 1262262773 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sqlite.org/images/syntax/select-core.gif < 1262262777 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sqlite.org/images/syntax/single-source.gif < 1262262796 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice diagrams < 1262262802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always liked those SQL syntax "flow-chart" sort of thingies < 1262262811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never seen it used for any language but SQL < 1262263855 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262263887 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262265147 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262265337 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262265357 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-156-98-222.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262265488 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262267683 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1262267847 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262268276 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to implment RLE with SQL? < 1262268298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run-length encoding? < 1262268306 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I can't figure out how to do it < 1262271053 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has figured it out and recommends this aas a fun challenge < 1262271080 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anyone that wants to write SQL :2 < 1262271102 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-57-224.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262271114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, standard SQL? or extensions? < 1262271121 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1262271130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, using procedural SQL? < 1262271137 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1262271149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, how did you do it them < 1262271150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then* < 1262271157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to do it myself < 1262271181 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll paste the code somewhere when it's done < 1262271193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1262271206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, using temporary tables? Which DBMS are you using btw? < 1262271230 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was using sqlite but now I'm going to try DB2 Express because I heard that's better < 1262271240 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to use one temporary table < 1262271246 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually I don't < 1262271270 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be all one select statement: But I use the temporary table to overwrite the starting sequence so you can run it in a loop (by reloading the file over and over) < 1262271516 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except installing DB2 is way beyond me at this point < 1262271716 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262273211 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence#SQL < 1262275138 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262275292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, I would use postgresql < 1262275364 0 :asiekierka-39!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262275367 0 :asiekierka-39!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1262276719 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262277299 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262278061 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262278139 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262279639 0 :adam_d__!n=Adam@client-82-13-16-131.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262280217 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262280850 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262281730 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262281984 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262283008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy australian mailman reminders day! < 1262283380 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262285736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1262286730 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262286797 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262288797 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gibberish <--- new esolang I just started. Anyone have any thoughts? < 1262288879 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like gibberish < 1262288883 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1262290005 0 :asiekierka-39!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1262290052 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm checking it < 1262290334 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262290612 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262290730 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262292006 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and I have an interpreter for it that I need to post < 1262292155 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292155 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292156 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262292679 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262292822 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-57-224.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292822 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@174-16-78-50.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292822 0 :mtve!n=nnnnnmtv@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292939 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292939 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292939 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292939 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@wikipedia/PuzzletChung JOIN :#esoteric < 1262292939 0 :lifthrasiir!i=lllg5c3A@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262295275 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262295780 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262298238 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262299908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy new year (in 9 minutes, but will be away with family then) < 1262300230 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck this year, I'm leaving it and never coming back! < 1262301579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_, haha < 1262301583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy new year < 1262302309 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happy new year! < 1262303101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, indeed < 1262303113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :hubert who? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Happy new year < 1262303579 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1262303767 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will hit the big 1262304000 in just a few minutes < 1262303785 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or new year in the One True Timezone < 1262303815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1262303844 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262303851 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in five minutes < 1262303862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, happy new year 57 minutes ago! < 1262303865 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be the first year of... The... < 1262303868 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tens? < 1262303871 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1262303877 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twenty-tens < 1262303880 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the noughties was a better name! < 1262303882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, also not five minutes. you said that at 00:57:07 < 1262303892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way you are in a timezone offset by two minutes to GMT ;P < 1262303899 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTC < 1262303906 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMT != UTC < 1262303911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well true < 1262303922 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone does not do ntp surprisingly enough < 1262303931 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WONDER WHY < 1262303939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but phones tend to set themselves after the network in some other way < 1262303950 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1262303953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least mine ask sometimes if I want to set the clock from the network time < 1262303959 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then blame O2 < 1262303986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, O2? An SGI computer?