< 1262563701 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262564032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net" < 1262565521 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262566947 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262567148 0 :bsmntbombgrrl!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1262567590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: a Rush Hour clone. < 1262567602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? < 1262567638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1262567775 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no links, but there are many for the iPhone. < 1262567791 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) I have no iPhone b) I want a game I can play now < 1262567840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what type of game did you say? < 1262567869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16:11:42] anyone have a good logic game I can play quickly (like *gasp* Flash?) < 1262567875 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just looking for a time-killer < 1262567881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, logic came. Like minesweeper? < 1262567892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, except ideally one I haven't played before < 1262567895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, or sudoko? < 1262567898 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1262567900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelling? < 1262567905 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was hoping for something more complex < 1262567909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to fix this shitty dict
< 1262567913 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sudoku. < 1262567914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, nethack? < 1262567926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too complex < 1262567940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yeah it had no suggestions. And it knows "I recompile" but not "he recompiles" < 1262567950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in adding an s marks it as unknown < 1262567953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelling dict fail < 1262567957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, meh! < 1262567965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hm... < 1262567970 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, think Rubicon < 1262567976 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good example of the sort of thing I'm after < 1262567976 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is a game known as Nethack--, then that. < 1262567983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh ubunut? < 1262567985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubuntu* < 1262567989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get install kiki < 1262567991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1262568007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wait no < 1262568010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Rubicon? < 1262568010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wrong one < 1262568012 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :( < 1262568028 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262568030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, apt-get install kiki-the-nano-bot < 1262568032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1262568032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. yeah, pretty sure I don't want a free environment for regular expression testing < 1262568039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, it is a 3D puzzle/logic game < 1262568050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you steer a small nanobot < 1262568059 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, thanks < 1262568075 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, I wonder if Enigma would work on an iPhone. < 1262568076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, it is fun but confusing. Hint: direction of gravity depends on your view point. Nothing else < 1262568086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can climb on walls and such < 1262568098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, which leads to some interesting puzzles < 1262568111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1262568139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ehird played it for a bit but got frustrated and gave up. I got much farther of course than he did < 1262568154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc fizzie or someone else was testing it at the same time < 1262568154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how do you jump? < 1262568168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, sec < 1262568180 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it's on the manpage < 1262568182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, depends on keyboard setup :P < 1262568184 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy crap, useful X manpage < 1262568193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc I changed it < 1262568194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hm? < 1262568215 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most x programs have useless manpages in my experience < 1262568232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, the xorg.conf and xorg modules/drivers man pages tend to be ok < 1262568243 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not an x program < 1262568247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1262568254 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, any way to get it not to mess with the gamma < 1262568256 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262568292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, unknown, but it switches back when you change window < 1262568297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, iirc there is a setting for it < 1262568305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try "settings" < 1262568320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, but I found it works better in the gamma it wants to use < 1262568345 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's hideous with my default gamma < 1262568358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, there you go then ;P < 1262568365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, it will clean up after itself < 1262568408 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already confused :( < 1262568432 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need to hit this switch < 1262568504 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, found the help < 1262568508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, good < 1262568521 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how again < 1262568534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, esc , and enter? < 1262568542 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1262568547 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all my assumptions are correct < 1262568549 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but something here is wrong < 1262568572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, got it < 1262568574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever < 1262568832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, btw I haven't solved it further than halfway or so < 1262569167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh solved another one < 1262569167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1262569841 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-225.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262570551 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262570839 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262574253 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262574374 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1262574578 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1262574768 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262575097 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262575103 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1262575115 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-225.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262576720 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do freaking anything for a new router." < 1262576771 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262577613 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262577718 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262577901 0 :Aszstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262578343 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262578659 0 :|MigoMipo|!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-225.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262578691 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262579484 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, I understand the unexpected hanging paradox. < 1262579567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand it... < 1262579567 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262579606 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, two of us understand the unexpected hanging paradox. < 1262579621 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that hard to understand < 1262579674 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, I understand the Monty Hall problem. < 1262579683 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1262579792 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262580074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1262580621 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION puts uorygl into Monty Hell
< 1262580805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me how the Monty Hell problem goes. < 1262580840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot offhand. Something about dollar bills passing into and out of your hand < 1262580867 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there is no Monty Hell problem, only a Monty Hall problem, a Monty Fall problem, a Monty Crawl problem, and a Monty Maul problem. < 1262580877 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262580894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Monty+Hell disagrees < 1262581511 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that Monty Hell problem isn't a very monty problem. < 1262586090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd monty your problem < 1262586091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o ;o ;o < 1262586772 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme more sci fi < 1262586781 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION creaks
< 1262586816 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird any more novellas < 1262586816 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262587882 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1262588105 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-49-75.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1262588773 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262588809 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect < 1262588820 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(spelling?) < 1262588826 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have read it a couple days ago! it is very good < 1262588836 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am thinking maybe I will get some asimov books now < 1262589246 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262591589 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262591613 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262591999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1262592000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1262593857 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262593979 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: I recommend it < 1262594003 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: read the Empire series; they're quite good and yet generally unknown < 1262594014 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1262594017 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheers < 1262594043 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, those are Pebble in the Sky, something, and The Currents of Space < 1262594063 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Stars, Like Dust < 1262594079 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, also Nightfall < 1262594093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nightfall is fantastic < 1262596174 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262596608 0 :anmaster_l!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262597283 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1262598748 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: outer join < 1262598997 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1262599205 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor < 1262599286 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1262599294 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is im just xoring booleans, not sets < 1262599318 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the end it makes sense to just write out an xor table < 1262599433 0 :treesapsatchel!n=Daniel@bb-66-63-78-127.suscom-maine.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262599439 0 :treesapsatchel!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262599732 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262599888 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a < 1262600878 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-6-79.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262600980 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262601863 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262602134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ host dragon < 1262602134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dragon.lan has address 192.168.0.72 < 1262602134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Host dragon.lan not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) < 1262602136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that was weird < 1262603407 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1262603550 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262603567 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: re scifi I hear good things about the Culture books < 1262603642 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262603687 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: but if you haven't read them yet I suggest reading the Ed stories (on qntm.org) < 1262603708 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't speak for how good Fine Structure is < 1262603750 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qntm.org/?robot1 < 1262604294 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1262604579 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262605082 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262605947 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262605992 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262606168 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: a xor < 1262606194 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: also, a xor b <=> (a or b) and not (a and b) < 1262606230 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an xor < 1262606305 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to be pronounced "zor" < 1262606315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A xorn. < 1262606457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say that a xorn knows of no obstacles when pursuing you. < 1262606514 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zor < 1262606517 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zorn lemma < 1262606521 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zorro < 1262606525 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zorba < 1262606695 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zork < 1262606818 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a yagon < 1262606998 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262608788 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a zorgonzola < 1262609810 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262611218 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: so you don't need a truth table for xor < 1262611356 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262611358 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you don't. < 1262611367 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's NANDs all the way down. < 1262613515 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that XOR has special implementation in CMOS that's simpler than via the basic gates. < 1262614255 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262614742 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. NAND and NOR are universal. What other ops? < 1262614781 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not NXOR; that's just equality and (p==q)==(p==q) is (p==q). < 1262614804 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. (p==(p==q) < 1262614813 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1262614837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Result for p q(y or n): < 1262614878 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n n. n < 1262614896 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y n. n < 1262614912 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n y. y < 1262614918 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y y. y < 1262614951 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too lazy to work out what op that is. < 1262615029 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: f _ q = q < 1262615037 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262615037 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1262615046 0 :Ilari!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262615047 0 :comex!i=comex@98.210.192.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262615071 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Doh >_< < 1262615089 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, NXOR isn't universal. < 1262615106 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Btw, you could have also just answered "q" :P < 1262615126 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as if the parameters ever change. < 1262615232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I figured that that wouldn't be as easily understood. < 1262615390 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p&!q is very boring as a CA and only has one truth value, so I doubt it's universal. < 1262615426 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly certain that only NOR and NAND are. < 1262615447 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only a limited amount of operators, if there were others we'd know about them. < 1262615477 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there is two kinds of "unversality": Unversality without having constant logic values and "unversality" with constant logic values. < 1262615727 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness?wasRedirected=true < 1262615733 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guessed as much < 1262615758 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favourite set of functionally completerners is {->, _|_}. < 1262615776 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially since haskells type system implements it. < 1262615801 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> being -> and _|_ being (forall a. a) < 1262615815 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~p = p -> _|_ < 1262615839 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, which of ^ V is and? < 1262615846 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget the order... < 1262615876 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1262615901 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :V is like U for Union < 1262615945 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p ^ q = (p -> q -> r) -> r < 1262615974 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p V q = (p -> r) -> (q -> r) -> r < 1262615990 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1262616037 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell. < 1262616071 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((a -> forall b. b) -> forall c. c) -> a < 1262616152 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There all ~~p is really saying is "(p is unprovable) is unprovable" < 1262616171 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't the same as "p is provable". < 1262616202 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am rambling. < 1262616803 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1262616895 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262616924 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262616928 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262617064 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not p is unprovable < 1262617076 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p implies false < 1262617177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell. < 1262617180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1262617186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Although (~~p -> p) is, I think, unprovable. It certainly is in Haskell. < 1262617191 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know it always makes me sick to think of haskell as a proof system < 1262617217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's equivalent to the excluded middle, which does not hold in intuitionistic logic < 1262617347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can get it if your programming language has continuations < 1262617448 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never really got that, can it be phrased in terms of delimited continuations? < 1262617479 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got cwcc : peirce and pretty simple to prove P \/ ~P from it but I hardly understand it < 1262617484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well _I_ never really got delimited continuations :D < 1262617518 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like they are simpler than cwcc < 1262617529 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1262617564 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main thing that makes me think this is the interaction with monads < 1262617576 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like AMB in scheme is basically the list monad < 1262617599 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can do this direct style notation for monads thanks to delimited continuations in a really methodical way < 1262617675 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe there is something to do with a double negation monad < 1262617680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm but i recall that actually making a monad for delimited continuations was rather awkward, while it's easy with just ordinary continuations... < 1262617681 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding CPS < 1262617699 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean writing something like < 1262617727 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than add x y = a <- x ; b <- y ; return (a + b) < 1262617730 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"reboot" < 1262617747 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do (define (add x y) (+ (x) (y))) < 1262617749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*= do < 1262617792 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's just strict evaluation... < 1262617895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(awkward above means something like: it needed oleg kiselyov to do it) < 1262617921 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it (just strict evaluation) < 1262617926 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1262617935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok maybe not entirely < 1262618052 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think there's a link with classical logic because of double negation monad being something to do with reifed continuations < 1262618081 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to try and make sense of that < 1262618102 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negation corresponds to continuation, yeah < 1262618134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and double negating everything in intuitionistic logic turns it into classical < 1262618162 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¬¬-Monad = record < 1262618162 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { return = contradiction < 1262618162 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ; _>>=_ = λ x f → ¬¬-drop (¬¬-map f x) < 1262618162 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1262618166 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just found that < 1262618192 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't understand this code < 1262618200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then we are two < 1262618267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose the monad type would have to be something like M a = M ((a -> Void) -> Void) < 1262618270 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how irritating, what the hell is going on in this file < 1262618285 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262618328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh of course that _is_ Cont < 1262618335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or Cont Void) < 1262618346 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright so Cont Void ~ double negation < 1262618382 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can prove things like LEM inside that monad (because the double negation of any classical tautology is intuitionisticaly provable) < 1262618397 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the computational meaning for these things < 1262618412 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something to do with CPS? < 1262618442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262618490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance Monad (Cont r) where return a = Cont ($ a) m >>= k = Cont $ \c -> runCont m $ \a -> runCont (k a) c < 1262618506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn _now_ it joined the lines < 1262618544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put a semicolon before m >>= k < 1262618620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't seem to resemble that thing you pasted above much < 1262618653 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mines based on map/join < 1262618663 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're probably the same if you unfold the definitions < 1262618713 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I can read ~~ proofs computationally < 1262618717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right there's those ¬¬-drop and ¬¬-map things < 1262618751 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if we rewrite the monadic proofs into direct style (using continuations) then they can be read < 1262618804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what >>= does is simply continuation passing, really < 1262618828 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is < 1262618837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPS? < 1262618877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you pass to every computation a function that it will call with the final result when finished < 1262618896 0 :ais523!n=ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262618903 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1262618960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leaves that computation free do do something _other_ than call it at the end, which allows for non-local exits < 1262619148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true weirdness appears when you allow for using a continuation after escaping the code that created it, and you can then even call it more than once... this is necessary for such AMB stuff, i think < 1262619239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(any continuation becomes a non-local exit/return when you use it at any point other than at the end of the computation that first received it) < 1262619332 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262619332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually for that weirdness add /reentering to that... < 1262619333 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duck halitosis < 1262619348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: is there a pun in that? < 1262619388 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aorta, a cloud of fury. < 1262619410 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262619422 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ten pin bowling's pluralistic mother < 1262619454 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time travel as tachyon socialism < 1262619477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuations are easier to implement in some languages than others < 1262619500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :temperature syzygy < 1262619522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the word syzygy < 1262619526 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the computational interpretation of classical proofs < 1262619529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's won me huge numbers of Hangman games < 1262619538 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there opaque to me it is irritating < 1262619555 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talcum powder, a ritualistic automotive agent < 1262619563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly because the other person gives up in despair when they have -y-y-y with five guesses left) < 1262619634 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evil evil twin, with two goatees: cannot birth the regular twin in intuitionistic goateeism < 1262619672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tasers' wet wind < 1262619697 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\mu \beta.u)v \; \triangleright_c \; \mu \beta.u \left [ [\beta](w v)/[\beta] w \right ] < 1262619703 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that means < 1262619716 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traction fire and company < 1262619753 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talisman inferiority < 1262619756 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262619815 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262619847 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runCont : ~~p -> p < 1262620117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less < 1262620216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait no < 1262620230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really runCont : ~~p -> ~~p < 1262620247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nothing more than a type wrapper < 1262620254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unwrapper < 1262620301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262620319 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1262620329 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runCont : ~~p -> p is ridiculous < 1262620352 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine trying to run ~~Integer -> Integer < 1262620354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the meaning of ~ varies. for Cont a it's really (-> a) < 1262620376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(recall Cont takes two type args) < 1262620424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while you could use Void, that would not allow you do get _any_ result out of the monad < 1262620520 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is worth just ignoring the computational interpretation of classical proofs? < 1262620545 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if p proves ~~P then you might as well just replace p with a placeholder * < 1262620566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1262620654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p -> ~~p holds intuitionistically < 1262620721 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p proves ~~P meaning p : ~~P < 1262620730 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might as well write * : ~~P < 1262620738 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since looking at p doesn't tell you anything < 1262620764 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262620766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some difference between p and P here? < 1262620771 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1262620785 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262620926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what? because saying that p : ~~q implies anything : ~~q is patently false < 1262621041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~q is a function that takes a ~q. ~q is a function that takes a q. and if you don't have a q to start with, you cannot pass anything to that ~q, so you cannot construct a ~~q to satisfy it. < 1262621263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is ~ here? ¬? < 1262621275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1262621292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and the : ? < 1262621300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it → for implies < 1262621303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what < 1262621351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um almost, but at a different logical level. i think it may be called judgement, but i'm not quite sure < 1262621372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make grammatical sense < 1262621379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1262621381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p : ~~q as a whole is a judgement < 1262621403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and what does it mean < 1262621406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait is that only for expression : type < 1262621416 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(type judgement) < 1262621417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is the truth value table for it < 1262621434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this is _intuitionistic_ logic, no truth table < 1262621449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i said it is at a higher level < 1262621451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh right, explains why the stuff above made no sense < 1262621478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but wouldn't two ¬ cancel each other out? < 1262621484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in your ~~q above < 1262621495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not in intuitionistic logic. that's the major difference, in fact < 1262621514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is "not not" supposed to mean in that case < 1262621548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ = not provable that, is one way of thinking of it < 1262621559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1262621563 0 :somebody_!n=somebody@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1262621570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, does it have a classical not as well? < 1262621574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1262621582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm lying < 1262621591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1262621606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lucky for you, it is *after* xmas < 1262621607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1262621616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~p = you can prove a contradiction from p < 1262621633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1262621719 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1262621721 0 :somebody_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1262621735 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262621768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less than a year until next christmas, I wouldn't be so blase about lying. < 1262621799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it was an accident. i swear! oh wait swearing is wrong too. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 1262622718 0 :somebody__!n=somebody@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1262622724 0 :somebody__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262622754 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262622756 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262622775 0 :somebody__!n=somebody@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1262622776 0 :somebody__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262622793 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262622794 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/al84e/all_in_all_there_are_43_quotes_from_lord_of_the/ < 1262622800 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1262622803 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One language to rule them all, < 1262622813 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one language to find them. < 1262622815 0 :soupdragon!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1262622821 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One language to bring them all, < 1262622831 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the darkness evaluate them. < 1262622846 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. Bind would have worked better, heh. < 1262622868 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeing as perl is the lovechild oh so many languages. < 1262623555 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262624332 0 :jpc!n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262625282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262626215 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262626441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that is gold does not glitter? < 1262626450 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt that the opposite of the saying? < 1262626464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true < 1262626465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, of what saying? < 1262626466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or equally false < 1262626474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "all that glitters is not gold" < 1262626477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that glitters is not gold < 1262626478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just wrong, ofc < 1262626479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262626480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1262626484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not wrong < 1262626492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"not all that glitters is gold" is probably what they /meant/ to say < 1262626496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 err < 1262626498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what they DID say < 1262626498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was changed to be a) more poetic, and b) wrong < 1262626505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I read the one he wrote as that < 1262626505 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just have negation scoping higher than quantification < 1262626509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is entirely possible, ais523 < 1262626511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of what he actually wrote < 1262626512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1262626515 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and happens all the time in natural speech < 1262626524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no, scope doesn't matter here < 1262626527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1262626531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "all that glitters is not gold" < 1262626533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no, it's the contrapositive, and therefore is equally true <-- how is it equally true? < 1262626539 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is, ais523 < 1262626543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if one is true the other doesn't have to be < 1262626545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negation scopes higher than quantification < 1262626553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though < 1262626557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]" < 1262626561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 < 1262626564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just said it can < 1262626567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you blind < 1262626570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, English doesn't work like that < 1262626574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1262626577 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some speakers < 1262626583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am not hungry" does not mean "something other than me is hungry" < 1262626584 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262626589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see what you two mean < 1262626593 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you're reading it wrong, ais < 1262626598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the negation isnt negating "all" < 1262626601 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its negating the whole sentence < 1262626607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my reply to this: < 1262626607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it is not the case that [all that glitters is gold]" < 1262626612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is not a precise language < 1262626623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted that, use predicate loging or something < 1262626623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is precise, its just ambiguous. < 1262626648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I think I meant precise in a different meaning here ;P < 1262626652 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whether YOU can get the reading or not is irrelevant (i cant get it either) < 1262626671 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negation scoping higher than quantification is a well established phenomena of certain dialects of english < 1262626674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : augur: it can't scope backwards in the sentence, though <-- postfix notation? < 1262626690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: more like infix notation for unary operators, is the interpretation that augur's trying to come up with < 1262626698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not TRYING to come up with anything < 1262626703 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a valid reading < 1262626704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ais523, for the record < 1262626712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, XD < 1262626714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm not hungry" can mean "someone other than me is hungry" with appropriate stress < 1262626724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, intercal should have unary infix operators < 1262626726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No dude, _I_'m not hungry" < 1262626728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't already < 1262626735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which implies quite clearly, "HE's hungry" < 1262626742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it does already < 1262626748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which one(s)? < 1262626753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them < 1262626764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are they infix? < 1262626767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, INTERCAL-72 allowed no positions other than infix for unary operators < 1262626776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're infix in that they have to be written one character after the start of what they modify < 1262626781 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. .1 is a onespot variable < 1262626787 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.?1 is the xor of a onespot variable < 1262626790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262626791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1262626792 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you want me to try to find some papers on the topic for you i will < 1262626794 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@95.209.77.74.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262626881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negation scope is notoriously wonky in english < 1262626898 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, can't you use prefix if the value to deal with is "" and '' like ?!?1' and stuff like that < 1262626920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Negation is all wrong in English, that is why it is never clearly < 1262626936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: recent versions of INTERCAL allow prefix operators too < 1262626943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to one infix, and any number of prefix, unary operators < 1262626947 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: negation isnt _wrong_ in english, its just that the words can do lots of different things < 1262626954 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its fairly well behaved, however < 1262626961 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just not well behaved like most people think it is < 1262626963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are precedence rules to determine whether an operator counts as infix or prefix in expressions like '?.3~.4' < 1262627000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(infix in that case, I think) < 1262627004 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought one of the goals of INTERCAL was to have no precedence < 1262627010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no operator precedence < 1262627021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't operator precedence, though, as it works the same way regardless of which operator you use < 1262627028 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1262627030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's positional precedence < 1262627044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you want me to find you some papers? < 1262627057 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not particularly < 1262627060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1262627079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then trust me on this, negation can scope higher than the negation in some dialects of english. < 1262627098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1262627101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher than quantification* < 1262627109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher than subject quantification, specifically. < 1262627114 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262627126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, assuming ehird's been reading logs, this could be fun < 1262627131 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's clearly here to settle arguments < 1262627136 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :200m.fi fucking Finns are getting 200Mb/s web < 1262627140 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: About? < 1262627152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: "all that glitters is not gold" < 1262627159 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not web, Internet < 1262627160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: whether or not some dialects of english can have sentential negation scoping higher than subject quantification < 1262627177 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even gold can glitter? < 1262627177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: more to the point is whether the scoping can stretch backwards < 1262627179 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What about it? < 1262627181 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a precedence issue < 1262627184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: how to parse it < 1262627193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur's trying to parse it as "not (all that glitters is gold)" < 1262627198 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, im not < 1262627202 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are < 1262627204 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all that glitters is gold < 1262627204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im saying that SOME people can < 1262627208 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was easy < 1262627220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I agree with your sentence, but claim it's different from the original sentence < 1262627222 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean "not all that glitters is gold", then that is what you should write. < 1262627252 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I hereby slander you a prescriptivist. < 1262627258 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a commie! < 1262627261 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 just doesnt accept the fact that SOME people can say "its not the case that everything that glitters is gold" as "all that glitters is not gold" < 1262627276 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Poetic license. This is Tolkein < 1262627281 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... isn't "I hereby slander" a contradiction in of itself? < 1262627283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would you like me to provide for you a completely coherent compositional semantics for this sentence IN HASKELL-ISH? < 1262627285 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He can write however he damn likes < 1262627287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in lambda-calculus < 1262627290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that a slander is only slander if it's false? < 1262627295 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I guess if you want to write poetry, you can write it however you want < 1262627315 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: its not that its poetry < 1262627317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for fucks sake < 1262627319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you listening < 1262627326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its common in many dialects of english < 1262627347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and poetry is not a dialect of english < 1262627355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean dialects real people speak in their everyday lives < 1262627359 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Stop being an asshole < 1262627363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think I prefer Latin < 1262627367 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're wildly overreacting < 1262627373 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it isn't poetry, you should probably write what you meant. I mean, there can be dialect but sometimes it is unclear, that is what I mean < 1262627377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latin has its issues as well, ais523 < 1262627381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you could pretty much anagram a sentence, and have it mean the same thing, if it wasn't full of subordinate clauses or something like that < 1262627381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: they did write what they meant! < 1262627384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does have issues too < 1262627399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in latin, word order isnt as free as you think < 1262627413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are constraints on pronominal binding as well as on focus < 1262627423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I treat the focus as being an anticonstraint < 1262627433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :focus changes meaning < 1262627433 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I do a nonsequitur and somehow make an argument based on the fact that Tolkein was a racist? < 1262627434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, focus-last is a rule that can exist precisely /because/ you can reorder the sentence < 1262627435 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, implied meaning < 1262627454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, this is true, ais523 < 1262627466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but reordering _requires_ focus changes < 1262627470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I agree about the pronoun thing, although it doesn't come up very often; but that only happens in more complex sentences < 1262627480 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if you write "This is not a real sentence" and "Real this not is sentence a" then you might understand a bit, even though it is messy, but sometimes it becomes less clearly because it becomes wrongly < 1262627499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: whats your point < 1262627500 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, of course, "Real this not is sentence a" is not even as sensible as most things < 1262627506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, in latin it works better because each word is tagged with where in the sentence it belongs < 1262627509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not a grammatical sentence of any dialect of english < 1262627525 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas "all that glitters is not gold" _is_ a grammatical sentence of almost every dialect of english < 1262627535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question here is not grammaticality but meaning < 1262627544 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is, but that is not entirely my point < 1262627546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not really, it's sort-of a polyglot < 1262627547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for YOU, the "not" cannot be higher than "all that glitters" < 1262627559 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for a large number of people it CAN < 1262627565 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they speak a different dialect of english < 1262627566 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like you can treat "this is nt a sentence" as either misspelt english or gramattically correct brainfuck < 1262627571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*grammatically < 1262627582 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polyglot, I guess that is a bit of sensible, a bit... < 1262627583 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If everyone parses English a certain way it is correct. < 1262627594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ok, I agree with that < 1262627610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure if that's relevant here, given that there's obviously a disagreement, though < 1262627617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, zzo38, would you like me to give you a completely compositional derivation for the odd reading? < 1262627620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in LAMBDA CALCULUs < 1262627625 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only you seem to disagree with the padding of it; even then you understood it. Your objection was entirely prescriptivist in nature. < 1262627627 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course your misspelt English sentence has no effect or meaning in brainfuck even though it is gramatically correct (it doesn't have mismatched []) < 1262627628 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prove to you that its theoretically possible at least < 1262627635 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsing not padding < 1262627644 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Therefore, you're wrong. M < 1262627646 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: its not even a matter of parsing < 1262627648 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: not really; I know what the idiom is meant to mean < 1262627650 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ M/d < 1262627657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :structurally speaking the "not" is BELOW the subject of the sentence < 1262627658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it disagrees with the normal parsing rules for every other sentence < 1262627674 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sentence structure is not sentence meaning < 1262627676 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;`( < 1262627676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think that what it actually means is different from what it traditionally means < 1262627683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inverse scopes are ABOUND in STANDARD english < 1262627689 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English, not being neat and exceptionless? < 1262627698 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD MY WORLD IS SHAKEN < 1262627703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an exception for /one sentence/? < 1262627709 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: its not ONE SENTENCE < 1262627710 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that is not shaken is not my world. < 1262627712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could anyone know it existed without being taught? < 1262627715 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not an EXCEPTION < 1262627717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English language is full of exceptions and stuff like that, for letters, words, sounds, sentences, paragraphics, etc < 1262627733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it is an exception < 1262627735 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its completely well behaved IN THE DIALECTS WHERE ITS ACCEPTED < 1262627737 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think it is exception < 1262627738 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its NOT < 1262627745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just a DIFFERENT DIALECT < 1262627755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IN THAT DIALECT its completely standard for ALL negation to behave this way < 1262627769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, there are dialects where (for all x. !f(x)) is inexpressible? < 1262627772 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then, it a different dialect. That means, you have to understand what dialect you mean < 1262627797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what < 1262627805 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you are consistent, which it isn't. < 1262627813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what < 1262627848 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, why dont i just give you a fucking compositional semantics for this sentence ok? itll demonstrate that theres nothing crazy going on here < 1262627850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if "all that glitters is not gold" in some dialect means "not all that glitters is gold" in ais523ese, how do you express the ais523ese "all that glitters is not a black hole" in that dialect? < 1262627851 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if augur wasn't an asshole he would be so cool < 1262627852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its completely trivial < 1262627860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you're trying to answer a different argument from the one I'm making < 1262627865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: same way, its just ambiguous. < 1262627880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is such a great answer < 1262627889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats THE answer < 1262627896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the FACT of the matter < 1262627902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language is ambiguous, get used to it < 1262627902 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you understand how to fix this template, I fixed it already but it is still broken, I don't know all of the wrong things http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Template:3.5e_Feat < 1262627919 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SAW THE MAN ON THE HILL WITH A TELESCOPE < 1262627928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRANK HIT THE DOG WITH A STICK < 1262627944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG THESE SENTENCES ARE AMBIGUOUS HELP ME LANGUAGE IS CONFUSING AHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH < 1262627947 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: augur just assumes (a) he is never wrong, (b) everyone understands and is interested in the details of linguistics, (c) using caps makes more people listen to him < 1262627973 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(d) making mocking strawmen of his opponents helps (thanks for reminding me just now augur) < 1262627983 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone it just makes me wince when people I can't stand study the same stuff im into < 1262627984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I actually had to look up and read his sentences after you said that < 1262627987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no ehird, i just assume that ais523 would make more of an argument than NO ITS BAD ENGLISH IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE < 1262627989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain filtered out the lines in allcaps < 1262627997 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least these sentences are generally less confusing than some other ambiguous sentences, they are also less confusing when used in contents, isn't it? < 1262628003 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ditto < 1262628008 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/contents/contexts/ < 1262628012 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone it's like being allergic to chocolate or something :( < 1262628049 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Become a masochist! < 1262628056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: i offered him numerous times to find papers on the very topic of inverse negation scope < 1262628062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm intolerant (like allergic, but with slightly different symptoms and less fatal if I eat them by mistake) to all sorts of food that people recommend < 1262628064 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then chocolate will be TWICE as enjoyable! < 1262628066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not chocolate < 1262628074 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: You know he can't read those papers < 1262628081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also offered numerous times to show how its not illogical, nor does it require WEIRD parsing < 1262628087 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know he doesn't give a shit about Reading them < 1262628089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using lambda calculus < 1262628100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus! < 1262628105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: translating english to lambda calculus generally requires reordering the sentence anyway < 1262628110 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just always want an opportunity to say < 1262628115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so therefore you wouldn't actually be making a point at all < 1262628119 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at me. I know linguistics < 1262628126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: listen to me ok < 1262628127 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have NOTATION for things < 1262628135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grammatical structure of a sentence is not the same as the meaning of a sentence < 1262628141 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow me to explain it to you! < 1262628149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :words can be in places that dont correspond to their meanings < 1262628163 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationally, I know it's /my/ problem - but it really seems like other people are causing it < 1262628176 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_all_ language is like this < 1262628179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: gah, took me a few sentences to parse what you meant, I didn't realize immediately you'd elided quote marks < 1262628184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and got the use/mention mixed up < 1262628205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""""""" < 1262628212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, I think that's better, possibly < 1262628214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sentence with two quantifiers is going to have these issues, ais523 < 1262628217 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope this is a sufficient amount of quote marks. L < 1262628222 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ L/d < 1262628224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are some sentences where you cannot avoid using inverse scope < 1262628233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you just deleted your entire line < 1262628243 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not in Sam. < 1262628250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, assumed it was a sed script < 1262628258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language is not logic < 1262628267 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. Sam's language is ed-derived. < 1262628287 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we still understand what was meant by / L/d even if it is incorrect, I guess, even like English languages and stuff too, but sometimes it can be unclear and/or confusing < 1262628289 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is based on arbitrary regions, not lines. < 1262628312 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the sentence in question IS correct tho < 1262628314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I try not to make assumptions in this channel, it's often a bad idea < 1262628319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not in our dialects < 1262628339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not beyond the realm of possibility that ehird might want to delete an entire line of his own < 1262628356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm also vaguely wondering how that typo happened, it isn't a very plausible one...) < 1262628363 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am secretly a 40 year old horse pedophile. < 1262628366 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d d d d d < 1262628369 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D!!!! < 1262628374 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not any more < 1262628386 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we all know you like shetland ponis < 1262628386 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Iphone keyboard. Send is in bottom right < 1262628394 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So m and l are above it < 1262628401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: aha, and is it otherwise qwertyish? < 1262628403 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1262628407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would explain a lot < 1262628407 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augut: Well, it must be a different dialect then, like you said at first, maybe < 1262628410 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M is above send < 1262628416 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L is above backspace. < 1262628423 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space space inputs ". " < 1262628433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But just because something is a different dialect, sometimes it can still be confusing, sometimes it is less confused < 1262628434 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I try to remove the last space < 1262628442 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But miss and send < 1262628453 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's qwerty for the letters < 1262628468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it IS confusing zzo38, im not saying its not < 1262628476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its confusing because its not OUR dialect < 1262628484 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes. < 1262628502 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never thought I'd be considering using Slackware... < 1262628505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dialect is part of it, anyways < 1262628519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so... unehirdesque. < 1262628522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: why are you considering using Slackware? < 1262628534 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-160-121-207.range86-160.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262628539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're one of the few people I have put down in my brain as "opinions impossible to guess" < 1262628545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably a good thing < 1262628548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm genuinely curious < 1262628583 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a bit jelous of that < 1262628607 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Why not? Slackware seems to meet some criteria I'm searching Linuxspace for: simple, lightweight, unobtrusive. Longterm my own distro is of course preferable. < 1262628630 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arch and Debian sid are the other main contenders. < 1262628642 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, my opinions are unpredictable? Huh. < 1262628649 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often changing, yes. < 1262628659 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But unpredictable in general? < 1262628671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm just not very good at predicting < 1262628689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, I know quite a bit about which fonts you like and dislike, but don't know, say, whether you'd like Deja Vu Sans mono or not < 1262628692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sans Mono < 1262628705 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a bad font. < 1262628733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I actually guessed correctly < 1262628740 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best of the DejaVu family, probably. Serif is ugly because it's thin and fat. < 1262628747 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird sorry to interrupt you < 1262628748 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sans is just really meh. < 1262628754 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the hell are you IRCing from a phone?? < 1262628763 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: Why not? < 1262628770 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that must suck ? < 1262628795 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to a normal computer < 1262628804 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a good enough keyboard, a nice screen, nick autocompletion and an alright browser. < 1262628812 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fairly ok. < 1262628815 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1262628828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :major issue is that you can't use IRC and the browser at the same time, presumably? < 1262628835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, in fact, IRCing from a phone too. < 1262628837 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correcting my typing errors is the main annoying part. < 1262628864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Colloquy has an uberhack: it embeds its own WebKit shell < 1262628874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what do you call a computer that was clearly originally intended to be a netbook, but then given 3GB of memory so it could run windows 7? < 1262628879 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a mini safari < 1262628879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: heh < 1262628885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I have < 1262628886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Not surprising that you like Slackware... < 1262628894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Mostly because I'm a bit sickly at the moment and am trying to rest in bed.) < 1262628899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: 3GB probably isn't actually enough, the one on display in the shop was showing out-of-memory errors) < 1262628910 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: £300 at PC Worldbook? < 1262628918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :£400 < 1262628920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is one of the few distros that tries to do as little as is sane. < 1262628923 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ripoff < 1262628934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they were gouging everyone as it was christmas and a new version of windows was out < 1262628941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but everyone else was doing the same, for the same reason < 1262628949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the adverts were hilarious: "windows 7 is out, time for a new PC" < 1262628952 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: My main misgiving is the, ahem, minimal package manager. < 1262628966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was actually literally that, except for the comma which was replaced by a line break, and the capitalisation < 1262628971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yeah, that is pretty much *the* problem with it. < 1262628981 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1262629012 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Does it actually *have* an uninstall program? < 1262629032 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, I'm getting CPAN flashbacks < 1262629068 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Slackware doesn't chase dependencies for you. Now THAT would make CPAN hell. < 1262629105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "chase dependencies"? < 1262629114 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1262629125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPAN effectively runs itself recursively to install dependencies, just with lots of yes/no prompts < 1262629134 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an unsatisfied dependency, Slackware just barfs. < 1262629152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that cause dependency hell, just manually? < 1262629153 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to download and install dependencies one by one. < 1262629200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was the definition of dependency hel < 1262629205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hell < 1262629209 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amusingly if you use static linking, most packages have basically no dependencies. < 1262629234 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/share sorta dependencies, sure. Commands they call too. < 1262629240 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not a single library. < 1262629277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick on some cc? < 1262629287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yes. < 1262629300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it doesn't use debian-style nethack-common, nethack-tty, nethack-x11 packaging then < 1262629332 0 :ehirdiphone_!n=ehirdiph@82.132.139.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262629332 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262629335 0 :ehirdiphone_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehirdiphone < 1262629350 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Slackware isn't atarically linked < 1262629353 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Atarically < 1262629354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Slackware tends to just do ./configure&&make&&make PREFIX=dir install&&tar -cf package.tar dir < 1262629356 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ffg < 1262629364 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just mentioning < 1262629379 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yhere is SOME pkg metadata.,. < 1262629380 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patch only for bugs. < 1262629382 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1262629385 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There < 1262629388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yes, it's a file in the tarball. < 1262629391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is ataric linking? < 1262629398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Static. < 1262629415 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They use .txz nowadays < 1262629422 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the latest release < 1262629426 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not tgzs < 1262629430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Right. < 1262629437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same format, different compression. < 1262629590 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need fixed < 1262629648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, you CAN uninstall with Slackware < 1262629650 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And < 1262629656 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As of Slackware 12.2, slackpkg has been added as the official remote package manager." < 1262629676 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it seems to just do download+install and search < 1262629685 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No dependency chasing < 1262629697 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: You need... Fixed? < 1262629710 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1262629718 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1262629893 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I can't stand augur because he's so fucking nasty to me < 1262629913 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but logically, the best thing would be to just forget about that and not care < 1262629958 0 :zzo38_!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262629960 0 :zzo38_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :zzo38 < 1262630184 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: well sure a perfectly rational agent would have no emotions < 1262630205 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but purely rational agents also never have different opinions, long term < 1262630214 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty boring really < 1262630246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Slackware package building method is kinda nice. It's called "shell script". < 1262630250 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it's impossible to totally let anything just bounce off you, emotionally < 1262630255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: hes just mistaken. ive never even spoken to him < 1262630279 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Im sure you've spoken to fax/quantum_ed. < 1262630284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who < 1262630304 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"In Soviet Russia, sentence says YOU!!!" < 1262630305 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon. < 1262630315 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure! < 1262630323 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont really talk in here much < 1262630323 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway he never said anything about you talking to him. < 1262630332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said i was nasty to him! :| < 1262630337 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1262630346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1262630348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1262630349 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He said that to him, you are nasty. < 1262630362 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least that is how I parsed it. < 1262630368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1262630372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN YOU AMBIGUITY < 1262630391 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you watch Qi? < 1262630398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, sorry, buzzcocks rather < 1262630420 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those British comedy quizzes. All alike! < 1262630432 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its just that i spend all of yesterday watching both < 1262630442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason i bring buzzcocks up is david tennant < 1262630447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was also in a recent ep of Qi < 1262630487 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I aw typing upside down. < 1262630493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partially! < 1262630554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking W < 1262630555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i dont really talk in here much <-- really? you seemed pretty active recently < 1262630561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recently! < 1262630564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, last few days. < 1262630586 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fhaitstieyisjgjwtijgwgjgktssgksgkssooye < 1262630636 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One dislikeable thing about Slackware is the lack of netinstall. < 1262630656 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead it's a DVD or 73.458063 CDs. < 1262630657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, was that Fhait... a cry of desperation? < 1262630672 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guisitoywitwtihcugrsypfypftid, Hoyle. Godgoto. < 1262630673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you could create a netinstall. < 1262630683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, btw what is your general opinon on "compile your own kernel" thing < 1262630684 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And a pony. < 1262630687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get slackpkg and dependencies. < 1262630691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION imagines ehirdiphone would hate that
< 1262630694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Install stuff. < 1262630718 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Usually pointless. < 1262630770 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people do it to lengthen their epenis by three inches and bask in the 5ms a day they save vs the 5 years they put into it in total. < 1262630781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, well in my case.. two things: 1) cut startup time from 35 seconds to 17.2 seconds. Mostly due to no longer needing initramfs and less modules needed to be modprobed. 2) I needed to patch to work around a regression for my hardware < 1262630790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly upstream is not very interested in fixing that bug it seems < 1262630794 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, omg, it's 3KiB smaller!!!! < 1262630806 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17.2 seconds. Hah. < 1262630821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, that is from init to login prompt < 1262630829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, measured with bootchart < 1262630832 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahahah. < 1262630842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, for an old sempron it isn't too bad < 1262630842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1262630884 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm relatively confident my distro will go from just after bootloader to X login in 7 seconds with disk. 13, absolute max. < 1262630890 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5, minimum. < 1262630910 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With SSD, 3-7 seconds. Probably 4-5. < 1262630910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, good luck, since 8 of those seconds are taken up for me with waiting for dhcp reply < 1262630924 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Parallel init. < 1262630943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, mine is parallel, but i need network up early on < 1262630960 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll be typing your password, and your WM starting, while DHCP goes. < 1262630964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, and sure if i started everything after mounting file systems in background I could do 5 seconds < 1262630969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, wm? sorry? < 1262630973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what has it got to do with things < 1262630974 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Everything else will be finished.) < 1262630987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses startx manually due to often not starting X at all
< 1262631062 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talking to you is infuriating. A constant battle where the only weapon of your opponent is pretending to not understand so they can flount how elite and minimalist and hardcore hacker they are. < 1262631077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, didn't intend tha < 1262631080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that* < 1262631090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pointing out my measure is to the text login < 1262631096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to kdm or gdm or such < 1262631099 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you do it all the time unintentionally? < 1262631112 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My sincere condolences for your ailment. < 1262631126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, all time is an unfounded generalisation < 1262631131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about this convo < 1262631160 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Au contrarie it's perfectly founded to me < 1262631163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow < 1262631172 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is boring < 1262631174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway arch linux init system is crude. < 1262631180 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who boots up anyway < 1262631201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parralell in part, but rather limited in what you can do < 1262631208 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an irrelevant stat. Anyone who isn't anmaster just uses suspend. < 1262631213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't do dependency stuff for once. It's up to the user < 1262631215 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, maybe ais523 too. < 1262631226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I just leave the system on. < 1262631228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I boot < 1262631243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, my system is generally on 24/7 for my desktop < 1262631261 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why? Slow suspend times? < 1262631271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but interesting thing is that suspend takes way longer than shut down on my laptop. Which isn't a good thing when you are in a hurry to leave < 1262631278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resume is faster than boot though < 1262631288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Nah, just don't bother suspending. < 1262631295 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably include TuxOnIce in my distro for fast suspend/wake. < 1262631312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, what does it do differently from "stock" kernel < 1262631316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when suspending I mena < 1262631317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mean* < 1262631331 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything. It's an entire replacement suspension system. < 1262631345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why hasn't it gone upstream? < 1262631355 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1262631376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been shutting the desktop down nowadays; saving the planet, you know. I don't want them to come jail me for melting the ice caps, after all. < 1262631381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tuxonice.net/ <-- this looks so 1999 or so < 1262631387 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BFS should be upstream too but it isn't < 1262631394 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link < 1262631394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the "flash blocked" bit < 1262631397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the design < 1262631399 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Suspend to ram uses like 1W < 1262631416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an unreadablely drark shadow < 1262631419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and* < 1262631439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, BFS? < 1262631468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't get it you are meant to be able to download Vernor Vinge - Rainbows End but I can't fucking find the fucking link <-- is that an esolang? < 1262631468 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler. < 1262631481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I don't believe you < 1262631482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yes, and fails to wake up on approximately every twelth time on my system, requiring a hard reset; haven't been interested enough to try finding a fix. < 1262631484 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a book :( < 1262631490 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End < 1262631490 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use. < 1262631491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system? < 1262631494 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im trying to downloard this < 1262631497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh scheduler < 1262631504 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the blog links to another blog which doesn't have the god damn link < 1262631508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, CFS seems quite good to me < 1262631511 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't believe me? What? < 1262631512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never had any issues with it < 1262631519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, what? < 1262631523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a copy of that book < 1262631536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :havent read it tho < 1262631540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, who don't belive who about what? < 1262631541 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you < 1262631552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler. < 1262631552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehirdiphone, I don't believe you < 1262631555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon, check gigapedia.com < 1262631556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain fuck scheduler ;P < 1262631556 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said you don't believe me < 1262631559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for bfs < 1262631561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1262631566 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that afterwards < 1262631574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, also: " AnMasterehirdiphone, I don't believe you" <-- copy failure! < 1262631586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no? < 1262631592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, what are you talking about < 1262631597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehirdiphone, BFS? < 1262631599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler. < 1262631602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehirdiphone, I don't believe you < 1262631607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehirdiphone, I assume it is a file system? < 1262631609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Fair, guaranteed low latency scheduler for desktop use. < 1262631612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh scheduler < 1262631620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[cut out lines related to other discussions] < 1262631625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, I fail to see any issues there < 1262631692 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, BFS has guaranteed low latency, soft realtime scheduling not restricted to root, and has near optimal CPU usage on a desktop: -j(cores) is the optimal strategy. It turns out higher numbers performing better is because other schedulers are inefficient for desktop (not high spec clusters etc) machines. < 1262631703 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a parody of something from the book http://www.seekrainbowsend.com/ < 1262631708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, sounds nice. < 1262631729 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262631732 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download" < 1262631742 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good for him but what's the URL?? < 1262631745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can you make sense of that " I said that afterwards" < 1262631752 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262631754 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I miss after "sounds nice"? < 1262631766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok guys, im off. ill be back in an hour maybe < 1262631767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ehirdiphone has quit ("Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info") < 1262631767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Vernor Vinge has put the entire text of his magnificent, prescient, mind-alteringly good novel Rainbows End online as a free download" < 1262631767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : good for him but what's the URL?? < 1262631767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie, can you make sense of that " I said that afterwards" < 1262631771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ehirdiphone (n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74) has joined #esoteric < 1262631775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, that < 1262631796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no "are you sure you want to quit" dialog I guess ;P < 1262631800 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just misread the logs STFU about "said afterwards" >_< < 1262631813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, oh right. That explains it :) < 1262631838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together. < 1262631856 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The quantum foam of nightmares. < 1262631870 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow me to quote you. < 1262631872 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzieAnMasterehirdiphone, some sort of merged super-creature composed of AnMaster, ehird, and an iPhone linking them together. < 1262631875 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD < 1262631886 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... It's GROWING! < 1262631920 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/28/vinges-brilliant-rai.html < 1262631925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like that... that ball thing that collects crap it runs over of. < 1262631927 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone able to figure this out? < 1262631928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, it seems like quite a bug in that software to not insert any delimiter there < 1262631932 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: did you read the ed stories < 1262631935 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see the big red button < 1262631942 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone a couple of chapters < 1262631948 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's only on copy paste < 1262631957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, cat nightmare? < 1262631962 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: It gets much, much better < 1262631995 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soupdragon: around Be Here Now. After that the entire rest is one big plotline < 1262631999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hm, iirc xchat defaults to inserting <> in copied strings if they are not displayed. You edit a format string or something iirc < 1262632007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't used xchat for a while now
< 1262632008 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okayy < 1262632014 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you have to have read all of them to understand it though) < 1262632017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here we go, *starts it* < 1262632035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm okay I had format strings set to display <> always < 1262632063 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Something called Katamari, I believe. Some sort of a game. < 1262632091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Katamari Damacy. Brilliant game. < 1262632092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, It was a pun on it. I heard of the game < 1262632103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I thought you knew enough Swedish to figure out the pun < 1262632115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask oerjan otherwise < 1262632122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was a *bad* pun though) < 1262632127 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAAAA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA KATAMARI DAMACY < 1262632137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION never played it
< 1262632145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it 2D or 3D? < 1262632152 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d < 1262632158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what platform? < 1262632163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :various < 1262632164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to imagine 2D katamari damacy
< 1262632170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it /could/ work, just wouldn't be as good < 1262632173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would miss half the point < 1262632174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, anything like n64 for emulator I meant < 1262632178 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Easiest game ever < 1262632181 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just hold right < 1262632186 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: More recent < 1262632190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, meh < 1262632197 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gamecube emulation is food nowadays < 1262632198 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good < 1262632205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the typo < 1262632207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about 4D? < 1262632207 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wad katamari released on GC? < 1262632214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, garbage collector? < 1262632217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Adanaxis is bad enough < 1262632221 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gamecube. < 1262632227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that the 4D space game thingy? < 1262632232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I had it working for a while (the graphics card on this netbook doesn't like it...) < 1262632234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1262632248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should probably try out the Maemo port of XChat some day; xterm+irssi is not bad, but still. < 1262632249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... that was unexpected *stares at firefox* < 1262632251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I got decent at it, even if I can't visualise what's going on that doesn't stop me playing it < 1262632257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you know in firefox, the google box? < 1262632261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says google in grey in it < 1262632269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, it's a search engine box < 1262632270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeees... < 1262632271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when you click in it, it becomes empty < 1262632272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1262632274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm it's set to Cuil for me < 1262632274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1262632279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so says Cuil in grey < 1262632281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to paste Adanaxis there < 1262632284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it said: < 1262632287 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: O_O < 1262632287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GoogleAdanaxis < 1262632289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in grey < 1262632292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: what? < 1262632293 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Why on earth? < 1262632295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't reproduce it < 1262632299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but strange bug anyway < 1262632307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Katamari's been on the PS2, PS3, and the 360. < 1262632309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ever since Google started personalising searches for everyone < 1262632337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two noteworthy ones are for the PS2. < 1262632337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everyone's going to get different Google results, it's going to be pretty much impossible to tell people to just google something < 1262632337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after that, there was much less acid involved) < 1262632337 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: clearly you should use bing < 1262632339 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least bing is a useable search engine < 1262632343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually trust any of the search engines < 1262632346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, no, yahoo! < 1262632353 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yahoo is bing < 1262632353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or altavista :D < 1262632357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, oh damn < 1262632357 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember? < 1262632358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I'm used to not getting useful results from them, Cuil doesn't massively hurt < 1262632363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, what about altavista < 1262632366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened to it < 1262632371 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1262632372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I actually used to use it well after Google became popular < 1262632379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it did a lot more of a literal search than Google did < 1262632383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which one? altavista? < 1262632386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1262632388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1262632394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they tried to improve their results, and just became like Google but worse < 1262632398 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I'm getting sick of google too < 1262632400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, so it is just a almost unused website? < 1262632412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a perfectly literal search engine, I'd find rather useful < 1262632427 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt < 1262632429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's trivial to manipulate the results, but people are going to be asking different sorts of questions < 1262632431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes. Sometimes I find the suggestions useful, not most of the time < 1262632467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm considering writing a google proxy like scroogle.org but without the bug of Daniel Brandt <-- I know nothing about this. So who is that person? < 1262632487 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google/Wikipedia Watch madman. < 1262632505 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, AltaVista's results for INTERCAL > Google's results for INTERCAL < 1262632506 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've probably come across google watch. < 1262632534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 relevant results > 6 relevant results < 1262632538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the first page < 1262632563 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scroogle is also quite slow especially via https and doesn't do image search < 1262632565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wikia Search, while it was still up, managed hundreds of relevant results on the first page, as it kept showing more results as you scrolled, but that's kind-of cheating) < 1262632575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: doesn't it also violate Google's terms of service? < 1262632577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You've probably come across google watch. <-- no < 1262632590 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Who cares (yes, you) < 1262632598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, me < 1262632613 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess who doesn't care that you care < 1262632615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if it ever became popular, Google would just either technologically-block, or sue them < 1262632628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe both < 1262632658 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anmaster: he hates google because his site wasn't popular on it < 1262632679 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He hates wikipedia because they wouldn't delete his page < 1262632693 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From these come google-watch.org < 1262632699 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the same for wikipedia < 1262632703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1262632706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1262632726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those sites are actually in my "wouldn't visit except via TOR" category, he's that sort of a madman < 1262632727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, both sites *does* have faults, but I guess he doesn't stay at those only < 1262632750 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is very crazy. He ran a secret logbot in #wikipedia and evaded them banning it < 1262632758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1262632769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus breaking Freenode's TOS too < 1262632778 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then he sieves through the logs and goes batshit over people calling him crazy in then < 1262632780 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Them < 1262632798 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself < 1262632800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, he could just park an idle client in there with logging turned on. Nothing ilegal in idling < 1262632814 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody else here cannot separate law from morality < 1262632820 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1262632828 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: He publishes the logs. < 1262632844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: please, keep your uber legalisticness to yourself <-- quoting you about zzo: stop destroying his differences < 1262632845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I can; I think it's sometimes moral to break the law, and there are definitely things that are immoral but legal < 1262632859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not exact-wording < 1262632865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/-/ / < 1262632881 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: zzo is fun, this is just disturbingly obedient < 1262632882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it's pretty rare that you get a situation where breaking the law is morally correct < 1262632890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hm < 1262632895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it happens, there's probably something wrong with the law < 1262632918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also private logging isn't forbidden anywhere < 1262632926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public logging are in some channels < 1262632930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: true or false opinion: ideally, the law should be designed in such a way that it's never morally correct to break it < 1262632944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I agree that this is hopelessly idealistic, but if it were possible?) < 1262632944 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1262632965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: all Freenode channels that don't explicitly warn of public logging, public logging is banned < 1262632969 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false < 1262632973 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think definitely false < 1262632975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1262632991 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." - Demonax < 1262632995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: interesting; what's your reasoning? (not attacking, just curious) < 1262633006 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my reasoning is anti-hubristic < 1262633021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: a good quote; I think it fails to take corporations into account, but is largely correct wrt individuals < 1262633041 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :law is a more rigid instrument than morality < 1262633055 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, you clearly do not fall under good per it, so are you bad? < 1262633066 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no point trying to make law identical to morality < 1262633070 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I'm not sure < 1262633079 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we already have morality, in all its inconstancy for that < 1262633090 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found contradictions in my own opinions more than once, and have been unable to resolve them < 1262633093 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: My morals are consistent. < 1262633102 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Utilitarianism) < 1262633107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: oh no please no < 1262633115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom. < 1262633122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strong utilitarianism is about the worst moral system you could imagine < 1262633127 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, yeah sure whatever < 1262633130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from one that's actively bad < 1262633135 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just be a christian if you're going to play identity games like that < 1262633145 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You are wrong. < 1262633145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it tries to sum incommensurable values < 1262633151 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have meetings about how great utilitarianism is and sing songs about it < 1262633160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: how can you compare the happiness of one person to the happiness of another? < 1262633167 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: By using names I am religious? < 1262633173 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You don't. < 1262633178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: do you know what utilitarianism /is/? < 1262633180 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You compare utility. < 1262633183 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes >:| < 1262633187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: well, yes < 1262633191 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Utilons, etc. < 1262633198 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is ehirdiphone being all about "my morals" < 1262633199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think people have a scale of utils you can just go and measure < 1262633210 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, in practice you must make estimates and judgement. < 1262633219 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if you could, you have feedback-loop issues < 1262633224 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Utilitarianism is the measuring stick. < 1262633231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that many people get upset by what they think is immoral behaviour < 1262633234 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other reason < 1262633237 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why i think it is false < 1262633239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need to take that into account in your calculations too < 1262633242 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is because this is false idealism < 1262633248 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that exists in this case is practice < 1262633255 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like it's mathematics or anything < 1262633263 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often it is fairly clear cut. < 1262633264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: if enough people were upset by the thought that some people used utilitarian morals, would you stop being a utilitarian? < 1262633308 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :steady on < 1262633314 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I would go for an alternative: hide my utilitarianism, attempt to remove this upset, etc. < 1262633316 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't go *that* far down the identity game < 1262633323 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just said his *morals* were utilitarian < 1262633324 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not him < 1262633326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: heh < 1262633329 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is another level of terrible < 1262633336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: err, I'm not sure if there can semantically be a difference < 1262633346 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do! < 1262633363 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person whose moral system is utilitarianism is a utilitarian. < 1262633369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it seems to be an antitautology to have someone who has utilitarian morals but isn't a utilitarian < 1262633385 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they were unaware of their own morals, I suppose < 1262633388 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1262633391 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is basically it i guess < 1262633401 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being A Utilitarian is an identity thing < 1262633411 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not. < 1262633415 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is! < 1262633421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it < 1262633423 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe in wanker philosopher groups. < 1262633430 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a wanker philosophy term < 1262633435 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not belong to those groups. < 1262633437 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is wanking philosophy < 1262633464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talking to Pthing continues to further the notion that talking to him is fruitless. < 1262633487 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where philosophy is involved, mostly! < 1262633503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :utilitarianism is, to me, an attempt to apply economic principles to morals < 1262633509 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a utilitarian. I call myself that because it is what I am. < 1262633524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's going to fail at least to the extent that the models economists use are inapplicable to the real world, so it's impossible to work out how to apply it < 1262633525 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is precisely what it means to be an identity thing :| < 1262633530 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am x" < 1262633532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ugh, this is getting to the old logic argument about someone who believes they believe something, but doesn't believe they believe it <-- huh? aren't those equivilent? < 1262633532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, i find any deontological system unacceptable. < 1262633545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, I've forgotten what deontological systems are < 1262633548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, they aren't < 1262633548 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: As it can lead to truly horrible results. < 1262633551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes they are < 1262633558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, typo? < 1262633559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I really screwed up that sentence < 1262633561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, typo < 1262633563 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actions can be immoral no matter what their results. < 1262633566 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you say things like that, you are linking yourself with various kinds of philosophical wankery floating out there in platonic heaven < 1262633570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what should it have been? < 1262633592 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So murdering one person to save a billion could be morally unacceptable. < 1262633598 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: This is abhorrent. < 1262633602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: get rid of one of the repeats of "believe", then adjust the sentence to be grammatically correct < 1262633626 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what deontological moral systems are. < 1262633627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I'd say with the definition of "action" you're using, you're pretty obviously correct < 1262633641 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I disagree with it < 1262633648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just defining it for you < 1262633655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: no, I mean you're correct in that it's abhorrent < 1262633660 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR ELSE < 1262633661 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1262633668 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not with the wankery, it is a *social* thing < 1262633672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which "believe"? < 1262633676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also possible to define an action as including all relevant context < 1262633680 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so you are linking yourself to other people who claim the same identity < 1262633680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are three to select from + one "believes" < 1262633684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: any, the sentence means the same thing whichever one you remove < 1262633706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not quite < 1262633712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it makes the point equally well whichever you remove < 1262633713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION drops the first one
< 1262633726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the messed up grammar
< 1262633756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. < 1262633760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1262633762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually dropping "believe they" makes much more sense < 1262633772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... is that esr, or just quoted by him? < 1262633783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1262633792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. <-- is he contradicting himself there? < 1262633794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : INTERCAL is not even vaguely modular and nothing I can say would persuade you that it was. < 1262633803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Garrett < 1262633819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's not a self-contradiction < 1262633831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1262633832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's of the form "a, and I couldn't convince you of not a" < 1262633832 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ducks < 1262633846 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not a and couldn't a < 1262633850 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. < 1262633861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: equivalent, just redefine a < 1262633861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well not formally logical contraction. But a bit confusing in normal language < 1262633871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're using intuistic logic or something like that < 1262633881 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey I wonder if http://catseye.tc/ had any new fancy stuff < 1262633885 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're using intuistic logic or something perverted like that < 1262633886 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know. < 1262633905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, seems so < 1262633907 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh baby, infer my Haskell types. < 1262633925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latest news: 2009.1229: Our last language of the aughts: ZOWIE. Read more on our news page, or subscribe to our RSS feed. < 1262633940 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/zowie/doc/zowie.html < 1262633940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, never heard of Etcha < 1262633948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aughts? < 1262633951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is etcha? < 1262633960 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00's < 1262633978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: according to Cat's Eye, BitChanger adapted to turtle graphics < 1262633980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh thought it was naughts < 1262633985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I see < 1262634033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1262634047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kdebase on arch linux pulls in mysql < 1262634049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1262634111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably because it depends on Qt, and they built Qt with MySQL support, for the sake of Amarok (which needs *a* SQL engine in Qt) < 1262634127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, QT has an optional dep on mysql < 1262634131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is not optional < 1262634134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: WTH. < 1262634154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah it seems to be akonadi < 1262634156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is < 1262634162 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The secondary design goal of ZOWIE was to strike the perfect balance between It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World and The Party. It is generally considered a morbid failure in that regard, what with not being a madcap 60's movie and all." < 1262634168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1262634180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which I surely have no use of for krita or similar < 1262634215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but why the mysql server < 1262634221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just the client library < 1262634259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also: Nothing will make me install mysql ever < 1262634274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and krita on ubuntu doesn't need it < 1262634311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, "huh" < 1262634489 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Also, I can now say I've worked on a language project for every letter of the Roman alphabet. I'm so happy." < 1262634519 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. Chris Pressey sez that zzo's name is Aaron. < 1262634575 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pixley is also (depending on how you count them) my 50th programming language (that I'll admit to!) This puts me squarely in the ballpark of Wouter and Aaron, and suggests that I plan to be personally responsible for a significant fraction of the next 700 programming languages." < 1262634591 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Links to User:Zzo38 on our wiki < 1262634676 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1262634862 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just picked a lock for real. < 1262634886 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was admittedly a really shitty thing on a floppy disk box < 1262634914 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I actually opened it by just wigging a pin around and twisting < 1262634957 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wiggling < 1262635185 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, I suppose, knowing a little about how locks work < 1262635246 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1262635253 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if you stick a pin in them and wiggle, sometimes they open" < 1262635449 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, I was trying to push a certain bit if the lock < 1262635453 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much more than that < 1262636269 0 :atrapado!n=nnn@95.169.231.240 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262636411 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262636453 0 :ehirdiphone!n=ehirdiph@91.105.68.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1262637122 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262637632 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262639057 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1262640065 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info" < 1262641139 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262641179 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know some things about copyright law? Icosahedral RPG has its own license but someone else says it has to be the OGL, I don't know everything about the OGL < 1262641433 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your question? < 1262641528 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My question is why it is or is not has to be the OGL or not. < 1262641542 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would it have to be the OGL? < 1262641567 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not using OGL material, yet someone said I have to license my work under the OGL anyways because it is "similar". Yet, even other similar things are not by OGL < 1262641614 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is the Icosahedral RPG license, for reference: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/icoruma/license.irm And the OGL, for reference: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/OGLv1.0a.rtf < 1262641627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's similar to what? < 1262641699 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something is released under multiple licenses, you can pick whichever one you like the best. < 1262641707 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar to D&D. But D&D has been written by many times ago, and there are many other similar things, such as ADOM and various other games, including RPGs and others. < 1262641717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about multiple license. < 1262641743 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing D&D is released under OGL. < 1262641745 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that apparently my work is similar enough that it needs to be under the OGL, but actually my work is written independently, although there are a few similarities < 1262641757 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not using text from the D&D rule books < 1262641761 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm pretty sure that game mechanics are not covered by copyright. < 1262641774 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Artwork and text and code and stuff are. Game mechanics would have to be covered by patent. < 1262641854 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the game mechanics are not even the same. They are just have a few similarities. And I'm not using their text or their art. Even if I do have art, the included art will not use the Icosahedral RPG license (or the OGL). It doesn't use code either, but there are a few simple equations which are isomorphic to the D&D ones < 1262641872 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even though D&D rules does not even explicitly have any equations) < 1262641898 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Game mechanics are not even copyrightable. < 1262641904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the specific writing of them. < 1262641925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and there are bits like trademarks and such... < 1262641926 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what similarities are there? < 1262641986 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only a few vague similarities in the way the rules work, but the rules are actually different. < 1262642004 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it uses a few similar terminologies, but not the ones that are trademarked < 1262642017 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can't copyright a vague similarity. < 1262642070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're using something that's patented, you're good. < 1262642082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no D&D mechanics are patented, FWIW) < 1262642087 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that, but when asking for help about the introduction text (intro.irm) someone said that it has to be OGL, possibly because they don't understand copyright? < 1262642103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're bloody well clueless. < 1262642115 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told them about ADOM and stuff, they say ADOM is irrelevant because it was made before the OGL, for one thing. < 1262642136 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I will write the Icosahedral Role Playing Game Rulebook anyways, and then we can see, right? < 1262642165 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is the license I used is it workable? < 1262642228 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1262642232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a moment. < 1262642307 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a particular reason for not using an existing license? < 1262642367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Poorly worded, but workable. < 1262642395 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can it be worded better? How should I word it better? < 1262642416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be very exact. < 1262642418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it uses the phrase "restricted by this license". Licenses don't restrict; they allow. < 1262642518 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The default state is that people can do very little with your work, and a license lists some additional things that people are allowed to do. < 1262642551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally, you say "you have a conditional licence to do X, provided that:" < 1262642586 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what you are refering to, part 7, about creations which incorporate it indirectly. < 1262642598 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should it be worded more proper? < 1262642872 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262642895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could say that those things "may be used and distributed by their creators in any way with no restrictions whatsoever". < 1262642928 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intention is that if someone creates a new spell for Icosahedral RPG, and it has a trademarked name, they still have to allow other people to copy that spell to their own work even if they have to rename it. It should be clear what you have to rename it to, so that it can be used by other people clearly what you refer to. < 1262642948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: generally you should ask a lawyer about this sort of thing < 1262642962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to make a licence watertight < 1262643049 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, new spell is just one example, it would also apply to new feats, classes, game rules, creature stat blocks, etc. But that if someone adds flavor text, or art, etc, they can do so however they want to. < 1262643072 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best way may be to take an existing license and modify it so that it matches what you want. < 1262643105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What problems do you have with the GNU GPL, or the BSD license, or the other GNU licenses, or the Creative Commons licenses? < 1262643171 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GNU GPL is best for software and doesn't do what I have specified. However, I do intend that it is allowed to be relicense under the GNU GPL, in case you want to write software or whatever < 1262643213 0 :augur!n=augur@c-71-196-120-234.hsd1.fl.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1262643219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest using something similar to the OGL? < 1262643221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that was a bit longer than i expected < 1262643222 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The BSD license is not restrictive enough; I never use it for my own works. If I want a program to be unrestricted by copyright I make it public domain. < 1262643255 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The OGL also has a few problems. For one thing, it isn't quite how I specified, also see the FAQ for a few other problems with OGL: http://www.earth1066.com/D20FAQ.htm < 1262643264 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See C.09) < 1262643283 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically I want it to be copyleft for rules but not for flavor text and art. < 1262643315 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flavor text and art can be whatever the author of the flavor text and art wants it to be. < 1262643357 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll be more specific. What would a Creative Commons license allow that you don't want to allow, or not allow that you do want to allow? < 1262643375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Similar" includes "like it, but without the problems"... < 1262643411 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but how would I do it? < 1262643443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... With a text editor? < 1262643445 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Creative Commons license does not differentiate between rules and non-rules, for one thing. That's because they aren't designed for RPGs < 1262643459 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't what I meant by "how would I do it" < 1262643465 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So release the rules under one license and the non-rules under another? < 1262643473 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you know, modify them. < 1262643482 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't actually answered my question. < 1262643495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262643533 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no... Any non-rules that are part of the Icosahedral RPG reference documenation still is my this license, but any non-rules which are written by third parties are not required to be copyleft, is what I mean. Rules written by third parties are still under the copyleft of the license < 1262643580 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you understand what I mean? < 1262643647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the rules are available under this license, but people can create derivative works of non-rules and release them under any license? < 1262643713 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, as long as any rules that are part of their work have to be available under the same license as the core rules. < 1262643832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, it sounds like you could just release the rules under a copyleft license and the non-rules into the public domain. < 1262643865 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I understand. < 1262643882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl! < 1262643893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think YOU havent actually answered MY question >O < 1262643910 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you asked a question? < 1262643922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you decided how to have names not be predicates < 1262643931 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But: My intention is that non-rules can be combined with rules in a single work, in a way which the non-rules are exempt from the copyleft while the rules are still forced by the copyleft. < 1262643968 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the real only difference from what you have specified. < 1262644013 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no, I haven't. < 1262644081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep trying :p < 1262644088 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: isn't that a consequence of what I said? If someone includes non-rules in their own work, others will still be able to redistribute the non-rules. < 1262644119 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you want to include a clause in the rules license stating that people must mention the public-domain-ness of the non-rules if they distribute them in conjunction. < 1262644220 0 :olsner!n=salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262644236 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I mean, they can distribute non-rules using whatever license the author wants. They are not forced to be public domain. However, if you add rules, the rules are still copyleft, but any non-rules can be under full copyright and can deny other people the right to copy any non-rules added, but they can't deny rights having to do with the rules < 1262644286 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1262644296 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1262644314 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1262644783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Here's the Creative Commons ShareAlike clause: If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license. < 1262644868 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just change that to something like "If you alter . . . compatible license, except that you may distribute the parts of the resulting work that are not game rules under whatever license you wish." < 1262644940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that's not the actual clause, that's a summary of the clause. < 1262644979 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, here's a better idea. < 1262644980 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, thanks, that makes sense < 1262645055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These rules are available under the Whatever License. In addition, if from these rules you create a derivative work, you may release the parts of this derivative work that are not game rules under whatever license you wish." < 1262645117 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1262645130 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, you don't have the strangeness that occurs when you change a license by specifying a change to the summary of the license. < 1262645169 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1262645271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will I have to copy in the text of the CC-BY-SA (or whatever)? And if I also want to allow relicensing under the GNU GPL, will the text of the GNU GPL have to be included? What if I want to add a clause to optionally change to new versions (where I will specify the new version, which might have additional permissions/restrictions, and new version of CC-BY-SA, and new version of GNU GPL, and so on) < 1262645333 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just saying "CC-BY-SA" and linking to it would be enough. Likewise for the GPL. < 1262645356 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the GPL bit seems redundant, unless you consider software to be game rules. < 1262645433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I simply want to allow relicensing under the GNU GPL so that the rule text can be added to any software with the GNU GPL < 1262645439 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for changing to new versions, perhaps it would be best simply to start releasing new versions of your work under a different license if you want to. < 1262645449 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I know usually it is just linked, but the idea is that if it is printed out as an actual book, that might not do? < 1262645495 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is that it can be printed as an actual book as well as being a web-page, wiki, or any other format. (This is one of the things that Icoruma does) < 1262645505 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I would guess that the GPL would allow you to release the software, alongside documentation and including a documentation browser, without having to release the documentation under the GPL. < 1262645528 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1262645549 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it can do without mentioning the GPL, then. < 1262645601 0 :MigoMipo!i=kvirc@79.138.206.147.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1262646800 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1262648297 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"co'o rodo" < 1262648439 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1262648810 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1262648885 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1262649402 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1262649426 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX