00:00:05 <pikhq> Someone did type-level Brainfuck.
00:00:15 <ehird> pikhq: oh, right, I forggot
00:00:20 <ehird> ok, i'll make a quick amendment
00:00:28 <ehird> hmm, it's just turning over to midnight now
00:00:35 <uorygl> You're four seconds late.
00:00:49 <ehird> wonder what date I should put on the post
00:01:56 <uorygl> Hmm, my clocks are about 400 milliseconds apart. I wonder which one is off.
00:02:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:02:26 <uorygl> I'm guessing it's the local one.
00:04:16 <ehird> Okay; post revised. http://ehird.blogspot.com/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html
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00:08:47 * Sgeo wonders if Small Worlds missions are TC
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00:10:50 <Sgeo> SimonRC, well, not counting any size limits, I guess
00:11:15 <Sgeo> Although if it's not possible to have an arbitrary amount of memory, that shouldn't count as close enough to TC, I guess
00:12:09 <ehird> by that metric c isn't tc
00:13:22 <SimonRC> Sgeo: I just chucked that into the discussion, the same way one says "but what about the angular momentum" in a planetary embyology discussion ;-)
00:13:52 <uorygl> I vaguely remember the existence of a counterargument to the argument that C isn't Turing-complete.
00:13:53 <ehird> sizeof void* must be finite
00:14:01 <ehird> uorygl: C + file functions is TC
00:14:14 <uorygl> That's not a counterargument to the sizeof argument.
00:14:28 <uorygl> What units are sizeofs in?
00:14:37 <SimonRC> what if you recompile with larger datatype sizes whenever you run out of space?
00:15:29 <ehird> SimonRC: that is not C.
00:15:42 <ehird> uorygl: sizeof returns size_t iirc
00:15:51 <ehird> and of course sizeof size_t must be finite as well
00:17:05 <Sgeo> The small worlds tutorial wants me to watch a video on small worlds
00:17:09 <ehird> c spec, i'm not going to go reading it minutes before i leave.
00:17:27 <ehird> we've debated this before and camp c-is-not-tc always wins ;)
00:17:38 <Sgeo> It's an ad for Small Worlds
00:18:02 <ehird> SMALL WORLDS SMALL WORLDS SMALL WORLDS ACTIVE WORLDS SECOND LIFE SGEO SGEO SGEO
00:18:26 <uorygl> Speaking of Finland, there's someone here who knows Finnish, right?
00:18:48 <ehird> Um, yes, all the Finns.
00:18:58 <ehird> fizzie, Deewiant, Ilari, ineiros, maybe more.
00:19:16 <uorygl> Wikipedia says sizeof returns a number of bytes. I guess that's pretty much a killer.
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00:19:41 <uorygl> Does the spec say that the width of a pointer has to be constant? :-P
00:20:08 <SimonRC> uorygl: bytes need not be 8 bits
00:20:13 <uorygl> The thing that sizeof says.
00:20:49 <ehird> I'm going now. Bye.
00:20:52 <uorygl> True, assuming the C spec allows it. So maybe we can just say one byte is infinite.
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00:22:21 <SimonRC> assuming that the implementation says that the effect of integer overflow is undefined...
00:23:00 <SimonRC> I think one could have a C impl that recompiled when programs ran out of space
00:23:33 <SimonRC> oh, but what about overflow from left-shift...
00:23:35 <Sgeo> Ok, Small Worlds is essentially impossible to navigate without buttons getting in the way, and there are no camera controls, except a 2 mode zoom-in/zoom-out button
00:23:55 <SimonRC> if the program runs out of heap space, one resizes the world to give more heap space
00:24:22 <SimonRC> if the program tries to calculate a size_t to allocate or index with that causes integer overflow, resize similarly
00:27:29 <uorygl> ineiros: yeah! Just go through all of Zerwolf's images on DeviantArt and translate everything. :-P
00:28:30 <uorygl> http://zerwolf.deviantart.com/art/Happy-Independence-Day-145781696
00:28:53 <uorygl> Why are "hyvää" and "päivää" in the form they're in?
00:32:13 <ineiros> It's a partitive. It's used in stuff like "Good morning" (Hyv huomenta) and so on. And there should be no space in "itsenisyyspiv".
00:33:36 <uorygl> I guess that makes enough sense.
00:36:20 <uorygl> No, though I would like to learn a Scandinavian language eventually.
00:36:43 <uorygl> I just happened to come across a Finnish artist.
00:40:27 <ineiros> Finnish is not considered to be in the Scandinavian language family.
00:40:39 <uorygl> I didn't know there was a Scandinavian language family.
00:41:49 <uorygl> I meant languages from the ill-defined Scandinavian region.
00:41:51 <pikhq> They're a set of partially mutually intelligible Germanic languages.
00:42:18 <ineiros> Yes, I figured you might have meant that, but there's the ambiguity.
00:43:54 <pikhq> uorygl: Also, regarding constant pointer width: C requires that a char only store naturals, that UCHAR_MAX be the maximum natural that char can store, and that UCHAR_MAX be of type char.
00:44:11 <pikhq> C also requires that all the other types be sized multiples of the size of a char.
00:44:39 <uorygl> How Scandinavian do the Finnish consider themselves?
00:44:52 <pikhq> If it weren't for limits.h, you could have a C with an arbitrary-precision char.
00:45:03 <ineiros> If you want to learn something different, learn Finnish. If not, learn Swedish, but I can warn you that you'll find it rather boring. ;)
00:45:19 <uorygl> How similar are boring and easy?
00:45:20 <pikhq> (and make sizeof everything else be 1)
00:46:35 <pikhq> Finnish is not even Germanic... ;)
00:47:21 <ineiros> uorygl: Scandinavia is so ambiguous as a term so I can't really answer that.
00:49:06 <uorygl> Hmm. My university has study abroad opportunities in Norway.
00:49:16 <pikhq> Heck, it's not even Indo-European...
00:49:22 <ineiros> uorygl: Swedish is surprisingly easy (even though my Swedish is extremely rusty, since I don't use it at all).
00:50:33 <ineiros> A somewhat-related video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk
00:56:16 <uorygl> How easy is Norwegian, then?
01:00:34 <ineiros> It's quite similar to Swedish. Swedes and Norwegians can understand each other. At least to some extent.
01:03:27 <ineiros> Wikipedia: "Some Norwegians also have problems understanding Danish, but according to a recent scientific investigation Norwegians are better at understanding both Danish and Swedish than Danes and Swedes are at understanding Norwegian.[1] Nonetheless, Danish is widely reported to be the most incomprehensible language of the three."
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01:16:42 <Sgeo> Undecidable instances?
01:21:01 <pikhq> Makes Haskell types TC.
01:21:16 <pikhq> Well, that and type families.
01:22:46 <augur> guess whats sitting in my living room, looming 7 feet in the air :X
01:22:59 <augur> ill give you a hint, its tall, rectangular, and black
01:23:12 <augur> and _ISNT_ a replica of the Monolith
01:23:13 <pikhq> I'm going to guess "the singularity"
01:24:13 <augur> ehird, i dont like your writing style. :(
01:26:29 <augur> pikhq: its not The Singularity either
01:26:36 <augur> its a BLACKBOARD :D
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02:55:32 <augur> ehird, i think you're totally right about the constraint system
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03:19:27 <augur> but its going to need some interesting wiggling
03:31:00 <augur> the way im thinking of implementing it, constructors in the background will establish certain data-objects that act as places to have bindable properties
03:32:20 <augur> e.g. circle 50pt creates a hash, lets say, like { :type => :circle, :radius => :50pt, :size = 100pt x 100pt, :position => :v0 }
03:32:48 <augur> rather than propositional constraints like type(x,circle), radius(x,50pt), ...
03:33:24 <augur> and these hashes are just effectively collections of constraint equations
03:33:44 <augur> then on top of this there would be other constraint equations that the user can write
03:33:52 <augur> e.g. a.center = b.cente
03:34:30 <augur> which just creates a constraint in the constraints list like that
03:35:45 <augur> im thinking of doing it this way because functions like over shouldnt update the things that it overs, but rather it should make copies
03:36:43 <augur> so doing say below a b makes duplicates of a and b, and manipulates the positions, and returns a new object that those copy objects are bound to by constraints
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04:55:26 * Sgeo wages war on warrigal's iPhone
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05:00:34 <augur> hows your semantics coming
05:01:00 <soupdragon> well I got a bit stuck and I still haven't figured it out
05:03:18 <soupdragon> well see (28) John loves and Mary hates pizza, syntactically you can parse it quite easily given and : (X\X)/X, but the semantics don't seem to work out compositionally for that (?), whereas if you lock X down to a ground term {N,NP,PP,S} then I can't find a parse for the sentence
05:04:46 <augur> well, you can make it work compositionally
05:05:31 <augur> lift John and Mary to S/(S\NP) and compose with the verbs, producing two S/NP's, then conjoin those then apply to NP
05:06:08 <augur> and use the rules previously for what each of those things does
05:06:53 <augur> that /should/ work
05:07:36 <soupdragon> so you are using AND(\x,LOVE(x,JOHN),\x.HATE(x,MARY)) $ PIZZA ?
05:08:01 <augur> well, remember, conjunction of predicates is fork over &
05:11:51 <augur> yeah, i just did it, it works fine
05:12:49 <augur> John : NP : J --T--> S/(S\NP) : \p.p(J)
05:12:57 <augur> Mary : NP : M --T--> S/(S\NP) : \p.p(M)
05:13:07 <soupdragon> I don't understand what it means to fork over &, is it the semantics of "and" depend on the type of what it is applied to?
05:13:10 <augur> loves : (S\NP)/NP : \y.\x.loves(x,y)
05:13:17 <augur> hates : (S\NP)/NP : \y.\x.hates(x,y)
05:13:36 <augur> Mary loves : S/NP : \y.loves(J,y)
05:13:49 <augur> Mary hates : S/NP : \y.hates(M,y)
05:14:20 <augur> John loves and Mary hates : S/NP : \y.loves(J,y) & hates(M,y)
05:14:43 <augur> John loves and Mary hates pizza : S : loves(J,p) & hates(M,p)
05:16:55 <soupdragon> so the derivation is like (((John >T) >B loves) [something to do with and] ((Mary >T) >B hates)) > pizza ?
05:17:47 <augur> and : ((S/NP)\(S/NP))/(S/NP) : \p.\q.\x.p(x) & q(x)
05:17:52 <soupdragon> I spent a while trying to figure out how to get and set up right so that it's used in this caes as and : (S\S)/S
05:18:34 <augur> and cant be universally the same type in CCG
05:18:45 <soupdragon> and : ((S/NP/V)\(S/NP/V))/(S/NP/V) : \p.\q.\x.\y.p(x,y) & q(x,y) ?
05:19:43 <augur> whoa what S/NP/V what
05:20:08 <augur> and what the hell does this thing do? lol
05:21:00 <soupdragon> well okay how about and : (S\S)/S : \a.\b.a&b ?
05:21:28 <soupdragon> so my quesiton is, why does and have different semantics depending on the type
05:21:48 <augur> because it has to produce logically-sensible things
05:22:00 <augur> John & Mary is a type error
05:22:07 <augur> neither John nor Mary is a truth value
05:22:14 <augur> so you cant perform conjunction on them
05:25:31 <soupdragon> wait you can't have and : (NP\NP)/NP ?
05:26:01 <augur> but what does it do SEMANTICALLY
05:26:05 <augur> thats the question
05:26:13 <soupdragon> so not every syntactically valid sentence has semantics?
05:26:33 <augur> well, it might well have valid semantics, you just have to type-lift it correctly :)
05:27:01 <augur> the type lifting is the only way to get the sentence to parse, right?
05:27:06 <augur> lift-compost-conjoin-apply
05:27:33 <augur> and notice the semantics of those respective operations
05:27:41 <augur> lifting takes x to \p.p(x)
05:28:03 <augur> compose takes \x.f(x) and \x.g(x) to \x.f(g(x))
05:28:24 <augur> conjunction of predicates takes \x.f(x) and \x.g(x) to \x.f(x) & g(x)
05:29:37 <augur> when you do these, you just _get_ the right semantics.
05:30:48 <augur> you cant help but get 'loves(J,p) & hates(M,p)' out of this
05:32:40 <soupdragon> Eval compute in semantics ((((John >T) >B loves) < (and > ((Mary >T) >B loves))) > pizza).
05:33:16 <soupdragon> = AND (LOVE PIZZA MARY) (LOVE PIZZA JOHN)
05:34:30 <soupdragon> just look how bad the semantics for AND are though... http://www.pasteit4me.com/95019
05:35:02 <augur> i dont know what this says
05:35:15 <soupdragon> oh well I can explain it any other way
05:35:36 <augur> yep, that looks about right!
05:35:45 <augur> nasty? you betcha.
05:35:50 <augur> and is a bitch of a word
05:39:16 <soupdragon> now I need to write something that takes John::loves::and::Mary::loves::pizza to the parse tree
05:39:59 <soupdragon> I thought up an algorithm in bed, but I heard there's a really efficient one too
05:40:47 <augur> i dont know how the fuck i'd parse that shit, to be honest
05:41:00 <augur> if you wanna guest post on my blog about writing a parser for it, i'd be honored
05:41:11 <augur> not with your program :P
05:41:16 <augur> but, as for building the tree
05:41:30 <soupdragon> yeah the thing is stuff like thrush makes it very tricky
05:41:50 <soupdragon> I was thinking every tree, that way if you get 0 trees then you know it's not got any pases
05:42:09 <augur> the parse for this sentence in CCG is simply
05:42:28 <augur> [[[John loves] [and [Mary hates]] pizza]
05:42:32 <soupdragon> with only binary connectives (like >, <, >B, <B) the height of the parse tree is exactly the length of the sentence - 1
05:42:43 <soupdragon> but with thrush, when you do stop lifting?
05:42:58 <augur> normal CCG only lets you lift from base types
05:43:04 <augur> so no lifting of functor types
05:46:21 <augur> good luck turning it into a normal sort of parse tree tho
05:46:59 <soupdragon> my idea (for the case without lifting), is that you can just walk along from left to try
05:47:37 <soupdragon> try to join "John" with "loves" in every possible way, if you don't succeed, try to join "loves" and "and" in every possible way..
05:47:55 <soupdragon> once something clicks you can go back one step (kinda like bubblesort, except the list gets smaller each time)
05:48:17 <soupdragon> I'm guessing there's a better way though.. so *looks for books*
05:48:43 <augur> ive got no idea how to build a parser for it. :D
05:49:39 <uorygl> Sgeo: why are you waging war on my phone?
05:53:49 <augur> soupdragon: an alternative would be to go the minimalist route
05:56:19 <augur> which is to say, it parses like normal
05:56:39 <augur> [[John [loves PRO]] [and [Mary [hates pizza]]]]
05:57:05 <augur> where PRO is inserted when the parser fails to find the appropriate argument for the verb
05:57:43 <augur> tho personally i think the correct parse is actually [John [loves pizza]], [Mary [hates pizza]]
05:58:09 <coppro> John loves, and Mary hates, pizza
05:58:29 <augur> pretty much. my believe is that you're actually not saying one sentence with a conjunction, as such
05:58:35 <augur> but rather two sentences interleaved
05:59:04 <augur> or you're reducing a sentential conjunction to an interleaved structure
05:59:46 <augur> its not without its phonological effects, unlike normal conjunction
05:59:58 <augur> John loves pizza and cake
06:00:03 <augur> John loves pizza and hates cake
06:00:09 <augur> John and Mary love pizza
06:00:14 <augur> John loves and hates pizza
06:00:19 <augur> all of them have normal sentence intonation
06:01:08 <augur> whereas John loves and Mary hates pizza normally has normal sentence intonation over the first two words
06:01:23 <augur> then restarts and has normal sentence intonation over the rest
06:01:35 <augur> that is, normal sentence intonation is falling
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06:01:55 <augur> and this has [john loves] falling, then [mary hates pizza] restarting and falling
06:02:04 <augur> which looks a lot like two interleaved sentences
06:02:10 <augur> and none of the other conjunctions look that way
06:02:30 <augur> i mean, you could view that as an argument in favor of the PRO analysis too i guess
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06:18:21 <Sgeo> uorygl, for no other reason then you being namedd warriphone
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06:20:24 <uorygl> It does rather resemble a command to wage war on an iPhone.
06:22:43 * uorygl seaborgiates Esperanto.
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06:29:03 <pikhq> You're... Coloring... A language.
06:29:31 <augur> pikhq: this is #esoteric
06:29:36 <augur> why should this be odd to you
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06:39:30 <Sgeo> Obviously, refers to hive-mind cyborgs sailing on the water
06:39:47 <augur> no no thats seaborgium
06:40:23 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&q=seaborgiate&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
06:40:28 <Sgeo> Some German thing?
06:41:25 <Sgeo> I... see nothing in Google translate
06:41:27 <Sgeo> Good night all
06:41:34 <augur> ive got a video camera!
06:41:43 <augur> i want to make scifi
06:41:46 <augur> what should i make
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06:45:17 <soupdragon> I wish I could just download every book automatically using the internet
06:46:12 <soupdragon> I never once got any results from that site
06:52:21 <augur> do you have an account?
06:57:04 <augur> well theres the problem!
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07:57:18 <soupdragon> I should work through the mockingbird book
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08:00:06 <augur> i should download a copy
08:00:33 <augur> to mock a mockingbird
08:03:17 <augur> ive been trying to wrap my head around a monosortal logic that isn't susceptible to russell's paradox
08:03:24 <augur> and i think i only just understood it
08:04:49 <coppro> 1 hit for 'monosortal' on google
08:05:06 <augur> and its barryschein! :D
08:05:28 <augur> monosortal is basically untyped
08:06:44 <augur> i was trying to figure out how you could have an expression like this: ∃X[∃x[x ∈ X]]
08:07:03 <augur> without saying that X is a different type that x
08:07:19 <coppro> but thats an existensial qualifier; why would such a qualification be necessary?
08:08:11 <augur> well its more that
08:08:24 <augur> if your logic has things that are sets
08:08:36 <augur> then you get into the problem of russells paradox
08:09:07 <augur> introducing types ofcourse raises interesting questions too
08:09:12 <augur> but boolos presumably said look
08:09:18 <augur> forget this stuff ok
08:09:29 <augur> you can do 1 ∈ 2 for all i care
08:09:43 <coppro> actually, no I don't get it
08:09:50 <coppro> what's wrong with such an existensial qualifier?
08:09:56 <coppro> of course there exist such x and X
08:10:36 <augur> if X is a set, then can you say something like ∃X[∀Y[Y ∈ X ↔ Y ∉ Y]]?
08:11:25 <augur> where that X = { Y : Y ∉ Y }
08:11:43 <augur> because thats all it sais
08:11:48 <augur> but this is obviously paradoxical
08:12:11 <coppro> right, that's Russel's Paradox
08:12:23 <augur> the issue is _really_ that you're doing something like
08:12:43 <augur> X, a set, such that it contains the Y's where Y is a set and Y is not in Y
08:13:09 <augur> but who says that Y and X have to be sets? well, the notation, normally. ∈ and ∉ is defined on sets
08:13:22 <augur> so in normal logic, it makes no sense to even say 1 ∈ 2
08:13:28 <augur> thats just undefined
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08:14:46 <augur> but what if we said, sure, ∈ is defined for anything and everything
08:14:49 <augur> pretend this is prolog
08:14:58 <augur> prolog has untyped abstract values
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08:15:10 <augur> so you can define in(X,Y) all you want
08:16:48 <augur> in that case the paradox goes away
08:17:00 <augur> sure, you can have something X that contains all non-self-elemental sets
08:17:22 <augur> so its not in itself
08:17:26 <augur> and therefore its not a paradox.
08:18:02 <augur> so you resolve the paradox by essentially getting rid of the sortedness on the values
08:18:17 <augur> sure, you might add sorts with a prolog-esque typing predication
08:18:50 <augur> but then that just means that the thing that contains all non-self-elemental-sets is not my-set!
08:19:03 <augur> it doesnt mean its not my-collection or whatever.
08:19:30 <augur> just remove the sortedness of all predicates.
08:19:47 <augur> presumably. i havent read boolos' paper but im trying to understand the principles via another relevant work
08:21:02 <augur> i couldnt understand it tho for a while
08:21:18 <augur> because i kept thinking about sets and pairs and so forth as inherently structured objects
08:21:28 <augur> e.g. the pair <1,2> is just that
08:21:32 <augur> its an object with structure
08:21:59 <augur> when really what i shouldve been thinking is that the pair <1,2> is just some object, with whatever structure, the structure doesnt matter
08:22:16 <augur> but it is that object p such that first(p,1) & second(p,2)
08:22:58 <augur> <1,2> may or may not be structured, but that doesnt mean you cant, say, call ∈ on it and say "foo" ∈ <1,2>
08:23:21 <augur> and you can say first-of({1,2,3})
08:23:51 <augur> its just that its irrelevant to the logic
08:24:42 <augur> once i realized that, man
08:24:48 <augur> bam. it all clicked into place
08:25:03 <augur> think of it like a very low-level prolog program.
08:25:12 <augur> no lists, no datastructures, nothing
08:46:55 <coppro> augur: Okay, have you ever been in #math?
08:48:17 <soupdragon> he actually taught me stuff I didn't know ...
08:50:35 <soupdragon> you're acting like #math isn't a smugpit today
08:50:47 <coppro> I don't know what it is
08:50:50 <soupdragon> augur just some guy that actually knew math
08:50:58 <augur> kasadkad actually knows math.
08:50:58 <soupdragon> coppro it's about 20x worse than before
08:51:01 <coppro> augur: and was a complete asshole about it to everyone else
08:51:14 <augur> kasadkad is a friend of mines :D
08:51:22 <coppro> if it's still bad, I'll leave
08:53:26 <coppro> but seriously, I could not stand watching TRWBW tearing apart people who just didn't get it
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08:57:58 <coppro> division of cells: o -> 0 -> 8 -> oo
08:58:28 <soupdragon> that would make a nice ascii animation
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11:07:06 <ais523> wow, Y2010 bugs all over the place, probably because nobody was anticipating them
11:07:25 <ais523> the typical problem seems to be that a format was reverse-engineered, and people assumed binary when it was actually BCD, or vice versa
11:07:32 <ais523> resulting in lots of things thinking it's 2016
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11:09:54 <oerjan> hm that only makes sense if you leave out the 20 part, doesn't it.
11:11:08 <oerjan> which makes it rather similar to the original Y2K problem, doesn't it
11:11:27 <oerjan> also, those bugs must all have been introduced in the last decade...
11:11:30 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:11:35 <ais523> nobody cares about Y2K nowadays, though
11:11:38 <ais523> because 2000's gone already
11:11:58 <ais523> so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Y2K bugs became /more/ common after the big rush in 1999 to fix everything before the new year
11:13:05 <ais523> time for my regular look at updates: it seems some security bug was found and fixed in Kerberos, and there are new daylight-saving rules for Bangladesh
11:13:52 <ais523> and glibc's been fixed to handle the case where no IPv6 networks are available much faster
12:01:17 -!- ehird has joined.
12:03:53 <ehird> 16:24:22 <SimonRC> if the program tries to calculate a size_t to allocate or index with that causes integer overflow, resize similarly
12:04:00 <ehird> sizeof is compile time though
12:05:55 <ehird> 17:22:46 <augur> guess whats sitting in my living room, looming 7 feet in the air :X
12:05:56 <ehird> 17:22:59 <augur> ill give you a hint, its tall, rectangular, and black
12:05:56 <ehird> augur, put that penis away.
12:06:15 <ehird> 17:24:13 <augur> ehird, i dont like your writing style. :(
12:06:15 <ehird> the text was basically an excuse to show the code
12:06:28 <ehird> besides I wrote it when tired
12:06:36 <ehird> I might just delete it, it's not a particularly good post
12:06:46 <ehird> especially because of: "Now we can define show using toNum. (Actually I broke this at some point, so it just makes show fail all the time with an overlapping instances error. Sorry. Patches welcome.)"
12:07:29 <ehird> btw does my blog look like it has a white background to you because it doesn't :<
12:08:19 <ehird> http://ehird.blogspot.com/
12:08:32 <ehird> view with a graphical css browser, obvs
12:08:43 <ais523> it's either grey or greyish-blue
12:08:46 <ehird> ais523: posts written in Emacs with org-mode :D
12:08:48 <ais523> on this screen, I can't tell which
12:08:57 <ehird> but yeah, your screen is not really a reliable source of colour info :P
12:09:21 <ais523> that's in Firefox; shall I check in Epiphany-webkit too?
12:09:35 <ehird> uh, sure; i look at it with safari so i see webkit already, but go ahead
12:09:46 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:09:47 <ehird> if you have IE to hand, you could try that too... for a laugh, most likely
12:09:51 <ehird> it's actually #F5F5F5, the background
12:09:55 <ais523> I don't have IE to hand
12:10:03 <ehird> I might go for #F3F3F3 or something, dunno
12:10:15 <ais523> ehird: whoever says it's white probably has a gamma problem
12:10:42 <ehird> If Iook closely with a white window to the side I can tell it's grey, but otherwise it's very subtle
12:10:51 <ehird> Admittedly I'm on the old Macintosh gamma
12:10:58 <ais523> it's almost white to me when viewed from above, but clearly grey from in front
12:11:06 <ehird> 1.8 instead of Television/PC 2.2
12:11:12 <ehird> (2.2 was made the default in Snow Leopard)
12:11:13 <ais523> but then, this screen can make even #FFFFFF look grey from the right angle
12:11:21 <ehird> (I just haven't put the DVD in the machine and hit gogogo)
12:11:25 <ais523> darker than red, in fact
12:11:27 <ehird> (A legit copy would you believe?)
12:11:45 <ehird> Hmm, PC gamma makes the grey very very slightly more obvious
12:12:01 <ais523> is that because Apple are more competent at DRMing? or because you want to support them with legitimate products?
12:12:08 <ais523> or because your parents would notice if you pirated it?
12:12:22 <ehird> because I didn't buy it :q
12:12:35 <ais523> ah, I was wondering about that
12:12:53 <ehird> i don't particularly want to support apple seeing as i'm probably on the road to migrating away from osx
12:13:10 <ehird> the only drm apple does is checking you're on a mac
12:13:14 <ehird> no serial keys or anything
12:14:37 <ehird> now, let's see if i can write blog posts that are at least half as interesting as the average http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/ post
12:15:54 <ehird> 18:55:32 <augur> ehird, i think you're totally right about the constraint system
12:16:12 <ehird> 19:32:20 <augur> e.g. circle 50pt creates a hash, lets say, like { :type => :circle, :radius => :50pt, :size = 100pt x 100pt, :position => :v0 }
12:16:12 <ehird> 19:32:48 <augur> rather than propositional constraints like type(x,circle), radius(x,50pt), ...
12:16:12 <ehird> 19:33:24 <augur> and these hashes are just effectively collections of constraint equations
12:16:13 <ehird> that's basically the same thing
12:16:23 <ehird> 19:35:45 <augur> im thinking of doing it this way because functions like over shouldnt update the things that it overs, but rather it should make copies
12:16:27 <ehird> there is no updating in my system
12:16:37 <ehird> below :: List Drawable -> Drawable
12:16:44 <ehird> each drawable has its constraints as part of the value
12:16:48 <ehird> and below merges them all
12:16:50 <ehird> totally functional
12:22:00 <ehird> I know parser combinator libraries can be Applicatives instead of monads
12:22:09 <ehird> but can they be anything _less_ powerful?
12:22:35 <soupdragon> monad more powerful than applicative beacuse monad => applicative?
12:23:19 <ehird> "This module describes a structure intermediate between a functor and a monad: it provides pure expressions and sequencing, but no binding."
12:25:09 <ehird> Keys my keyboard lacks: Numlock, numpad /, numbad 9, numpad 4, numpad 5, left arrow, right control, right shift, \|, ]}
12:26:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
12:31:26 <ais523> ehird: what is up with your keyboard?
12:31:29 <ais523> also, how do you program?
12:31:48 <ais523> (I'm assuming that's desktop keyboard, not iphone keyboard)
12:32:06 <ehird> It's a Frankenkeyboard. And, well, \ and | are rarely used; I just finger the exposed circuit board when I want to type one of them.
12:32:37 <ehird> It doesn't have any tactile response and I have to use my nail, but it beats the unholy effort of putting the keys back on (dun dun DUN).
12:32:51 <ehird> And I never use the numpad.
12:32:56 <ehird> (I used to, but this stopped me!)
12:32:59 <ehird> (I now type better.)
12:33:38 <ais523> I don't use the numpad due to spending nearly all my time on laptops
12:33:50 <ehird> The numpad is bad because I have to move my hand dto use it.
12:33:55 <ehird> So learning to touch-type the number row is better.
12:34:45 <ais523> were you the sort of person who always left numpad on, or the sort of person who always left it off?
12:34:54 <ais523> I imagine very few people actually change it, due to muscle memory
12:35:09 <ehird> I always left it on; it was the only way I could type numbers quickly.
12:35:20 <ais523> I also always left it on
12:35:23 <ehird> I also used to type * with it, but not + or -.
12:35:29 <ais523> which is strange as I rarely actually used it
12:35:33 <ehird> IMO the non-numlock mode is pretty useless
12:35:45 <ehird> all the keys are there right before the numpad...
12:35:45 <ais523> some people use it for games
12:35:48 <ehird> in the middle column
12:36:30 <ais523> no, me getting the wrong nick
12:36:47 <ais523> it's a testament to how long I've spent in here that I have both your nicks sufficiently finger-memorised that I can typo one for the other
12:37:03 <ehird> you don't tab-complete?
12:37:48 <AnMaster> ehird, or he memorised something like: "an<tab>" and "eh<tab>"
12:38:03 <ais523> tab-complete's included in the finger-memorisations
12:38:08 <ais523> although ehird's short enough to type without completing
12:38:27 <AnMaster> ais523, nah, three letters is max I go before tab complete
12:38:28 <ehird> you're ais?\t but a\t would basically almost work i guess
12:38:29 <ais523> I just checked too; it is two characters at the start of the name that I've finger-memorised
12:38:37 <ehird> mostly ai\t i think
12:38:43 <ais523> ehird: with AnMaster here, you need two characters
12:38:47 <ais523> if you want it to be reliable
12:38:54 <ehird> my client sorts by last use or something
12:39:10 <ehird> AnMaster is always [Aa]n\t for me anyway
12:39:11 <ais523> yes, and AnMaster has often spoken more recently than me
12:39:15 <ehird> I never, ever type the m
12:39:29 <ehird> ais523: no, last use by _me_
12:39:30 <ais523> my client repeats my last tab-complete if I press tab with nothing in the box
12:39:43 <ehird> ais523: ah, ditto here
12:39:45 <ehird> ais523: didn't realise that
12:39:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well I tend to try to always use three letters so that the risk of issues with someone new joining and messing up for me is less.
12:39:53 <ehird> ais523: now i will use it FOREVARRRRRRRRRRRRR
12:39:56 <AnMaster> even if one letter would be enough
12:40:27 <AnMaster> about repeating last: not for me. Mine does however do "last nick to speak first"
12:40:43 <AnMaster> and since most people are idle it helps
12:41:18 <AnMaster> I noticed xchat treats tab if you hold it down as "tab to other GUI element"
12:41:37 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what tab does, in nearly all GUI contexts
12:41:46 <ais523> but the CLI meaning of tab takes precedence over the GUI one in an IRC input box
12:42:07 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but that it does that in the input box *instead of tab complete* if you hold tab down for about half a second
12:42:23 <AnMaster> actually closer to a second I think
12:42:25 <ais523> they're giving you the opportunity to do one or the other
12:42:45 <ais523> after all, otherwise the focus would be trapped in the input box forever if you didn't have a mouse, and only knew about tab for GUI navigation with the keyboard
12:43:16 <AnMaster> ais523, hey that was something zzo would have said
12:43:21 <AnMaster> not something you would have said.
12:43:43 <AnMaster> (of course he would have added it should be configurable too)
12:44:01 <ehird> ais523 is of the School of Works on Your 50-Year-Old Amstrad With Three Pixels and One Key
12:44:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well only the last bit "if you didn't have a mouse, and only knew about tab for GUI navigation with the keyboard" sounded zzo-ish
12:44:30 <ehird> No, that's just "RAAR SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS ARE EVIL".
12:44:35 <ais523> zzo wouldn't have put it at the end of the sentence
12:44:39 <ais523> and the grammar would be different
12:44:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well okay, not too far off though
12:45:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes he would have said there should be an option for it
12:45:19 <AnMaster> speaking of which, should suggest to him next time that he makes the options optional
12:45:20 <ehird> zzo's amusingness is more than just options, you know.
12:45:38 <ais523> zzo has an extremely logical mode of thought
12:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. but I was concentrating on that bit here
12:45:58 <ais523> also, seems to have learnt politeness inductively, like I did, rather than understanding it innately
12:46:37 <ehird> If you want to tab to another field in ZRCB++Q4 you can hold down the TAB key. But if you don't want it to tab to another field if you hold down the TAB key, also, you could change that option or you could edit the code to remove that also.
12:46:50 <ehird> Also also Also also also also buffalo.
12:47:11 <ehird> (ps imagine that line being said right after he enters without explaining what ZRCB++Q4 is)
12:47:21 <AnMaster> ais523, Not sure exactly what you mean, but if it is what I think then it is similar for me
12:47:28 <ais523> possibly for many of us
12:47:36 * AnMaster waits for ais523 to clarify what he meant with inductively here
12:47:44 <ais523> AnMaster: trying to work it out from examples and experiment
12:48:00 <ehird> #esoteric-politeness (where - is minus) FLAME! WAR! FLAME! WAR!
12:49:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I do not think you can have a built in definition of what is polite. For a start, the details differs between cultures
12:49:10 -!- ehird has left (?).
12:49:13 -!- ehird has joined.
12:49:13 -!- ehird has left (?).
12:49:17 -!- ehird has joined.
12:49:23 <ehird> politeness is evolved
12:49:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what is considered polite in UK might not be in (for example) South Korea
12:49:35 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean, more, that most people don't have to expend concious thought on working out how politeness works in their culture
12:49:39 <ehird> as part of the general pack animal stuff
12:49:58 <ais523> hmm... dolphins are incredibly arrogant
12:49:59 <AnMaster> to some extent they do share some similarities of course. But a lot of it will differ.
12:50:04 <ehird> but, also, please; every programmer on the internet thinks they're autistic/Asperger's
12:50:16 <ais523> people parsed their communication, and it's nearly all them giving each other orders
12:50:21 <AnMaster> ais523, and thanks for all the fish <-- doesn't sound too arrogant ;P
12:50:34 <ais523> ehird: they're actually correct, but only because Asperger's has been generalised to the extent that it's almost meaningless
12:50:52 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but learned politeness isn't really generalised that much.
12:50:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> people parsed their communication <-- when did they figure that out?
12:51:24 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... I think what they did was invented a simple language, and taught it to the dolphins
12:51:28 <ehird> douglas adams created the impression of dolphins being all playful awesome intelligent creatures
12:51:32 <ehird> it's kinda... bullshit.
12:51:44 <ais523> and they knew what the language was because they'd invented it in the first place
12:52:00 <ehird> yes, they're intelligent... but they're not civilised or anything, unless you call gang rape civilised
12:52:04 <ehird> soupdragon: you would be surprised how many people do
12:52:17 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, well could depend on the language. Or maybe they misunderstood it.
12:52:22 <ais523> they're intelligent, but they follow utterly different social rules from us
12:52:23 <ehird> most people are idiots and they cannot distinguish witty fiction from fact
12:52:28 <ais523> AnMaster: it had verbs, and nouns
12:52:32 <ais523> and a sentence was one of each
12:52:37 <ehird> ais523: are you seriously calling gang rape a social rule
12:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know if it is true, but I heard some claims that if you don't have numbers in your language you can't count.
12:53:05 <ais523> ehird: I'm not sure how to parse your question, but it's either trivially true or trivially false depending on what you mean
12:53:09 <AnMaster> well, one-to-one matching still works iirc
12:53:24 <ais523> dolphins are pretty good at coordinating as a group, that's what the social rules are about
12:53:34 <ais523> what the effect of them is is unrelated
12:53:39 <ehird> ais523: well, it seems like saying "dolphins are intelligent they _just have different social rules" is bullshit
12:53:39 <ais523> have you seen dolphins herding fish?
12:54:02 <ais523> ehird: hmm, removing the comma completely changes the meaning of what I was trying to say
12:54:07 <ais523> AnMaster: on the TV, yes
12:54:13 <ais523> they go round in circles breathing out
12:54:23 <ais523> and the fish can't escape, because they can't swim through aitr
12:54:30 <ais523> and other dolphins just eat the trapped fish
12:55:22 <AnMaster> ais523, they do that? And why did that make me think of something as ridiculous as dophins using underwater sheepdogs XD
12:55:34 <ais523> AnMaster: OK, that is ridiculous
12:55:46 <ais523> the whole sheepdog principle only works because sheep are terrified of dogs
12:56:00 <AnMaster> ais523, they could tame sharks or something XD
12:56:03 <ais523> which makes sense, given the likely history of their interactions before humans came along
12:57:23 * ais523 thinks about the old metaphor of herding cats
12:57:29 <ehird> I had a dream last night where I was given a Wii, which actually turned out to be multiple Wiis. Two of the three or four were the imaginary higher model Wii, which was seemingly identical apart from being much bigger.
12:57:34 <ais523> I wonder how people discovered that herding cats was almost impossible. Experiment?
12:57:57 <ehird> The dreaming part of my brain cannot distinguish the Wii from the Xbox 360, which _does_ have multiple versions. Woe is me.
12:58:11 <ais523> wow, that previous line of mine was identical in real-world grammar and IRC grammar
12:58:22 <ais523> because it starts with a proper pronoun, and ends with a question mark
12:59:16 <AnMaster> * ais523 thinks about the old metaphor of herding cats <-- I haven't heard of that
12:59:27 <ais523> maybe it's a British one
12:59:37 <ais523> the idea is that herding cats is basically impossible
12:59:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well sounds reasonable
12:59:51 <ais523> and you compare things to herding cats if they're a similar sort of job
13:00:02 <ais523> say, coordinating thousands of children, or whatever
13:00:05 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmgLtg1Izw
13:00:27 <AnMaster> ais523, has anyone tried this scientifically? *Ponders what the control group would consist of*
13:00:50 <ais523> (but on YouTube, and I don't like to watch that from a work connection)
13:01:16 <ehird> you've wasted more than 1:00 on irc already :p
13:01:19 <ais523> my current Flash compromise has it completely banned from Firefox, but allowed unrestrictedly on Epiphany, by the way
13:01:45 <ais523> AnMaster: unlikely to trigger Flash by accident
13:02:09 <ais523> because I only use Epiphany for file:// or when I'm specifically trying to look at something that requires FLash
13:02:51 <ehird> any objections to me deleting http://ehird.blogspot.com/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html, due to its generally rubbish writing?
13:03:01 * AnMaster wonders *why* synergy sometimes results in ghost pastes
13:03:09 <ais523> no; are you planning to redo it with better writing, by the way?
13:03:23 <ais523> my brain has a sort-of objection to deleting blog posts on general principles, even if nobody is ever likely to actually read them
13:03:42 <ehird> I can't think of a way to write it better, really.
13:03:47 <ehird> The code stands on its own.
13:03:51 <soupdragon> Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Elliott Hird's blog does not exist.
13:04:02 <ehird> soupdragon: I haven't deleted it yet.
13:04:10 <AnMaster> soupdragon, remove the , at the end
13:04:30 <AnMaster> (my client does that too, and sometimes , *are* part of url so meh)
13:05:10 <ehird> considering i just registered it yesterday and set up emacs w/ org-mode to write the posts...yes
13:05:34 <soupdragon> don't delete it or you'll never post anything
13:05:45 <AnMaster> so how the *heck* does one add items to the "Places" menu in gnome
13:05:50 <soupdragon> just hide it by posting lots of better stuff
13:05:53 <ehird> AnMaster: add to the nautilus sidebar
13:05:59 <ehird> soupdragon: no, posting a "HELLO WORLD" post will kill it
13:06:07 <ehird> soupdragon: i wrote that post when sleepy, anyway
13:06:11 <ehird> i just wanted to post something
13:06:15 <ehird> AnMaster: how is that illogical
13:06:20 <ehird> places shows a few locations + nautilus favourites
13:06:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well why should they be related
13:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, for a start they don't match
13:06:57 <AnMaster> mostly in that "removable media" is expanded
13:07:05 <AnMaster> so thus you don't see it right away
13:07:07 <ehird> you will note a separator bar
13:07:24 <AnMaster> but there is no such in nautilus
13:07:32 <ehird> one of the separated bits is the nautilus favourites
13:07:54 <soupdragon> genrealized composition with n=0 is application!!
13:08:02 <AnMaster> ehird, in the "places" thing in naultius, there are *no* separator bars bar one bar at the bottom (nothing below it)
13:08:59 <AnMaster> ehird, plus, I normally use the tree view if I use nautilus
13:09:10 <ais523> wait, there's a flame war going on about /nautilus/?
13:09:20 <ais523> please, it's too meh to care about one way or the other
13:09:40 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster's strategy is to use Ubuntu because he wants things to "JUST WORK", then tweak everything as much as he can, and complain when it isn't tweakable
13:10:07 <soupdragon> it fucking fails every couple of months
13:10:14 <ais523> I'm using Ubuntu for a similar reason, but tweaking only when necessary, apart from things like the colour scheme which are unimportant
13:10:34 <ais523> e.g. I went and compiled the wireless driver myself, because it was needed to get the wireless to work
13:10:38 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg ;; IT KEEPS GROWING OH GOD
13:11:09 <ehird> you use GNOME on Arch?
13:11:16 <ehird> what are you, retarded?
13:11:24 <AnMaster> ehird, yes because kde pulls in mysql for one thing.
13:11:26 <Deewiant> Some programs use it whether you like it or not.
13:11:47 <ehird> Deewiant: that doesn't mean he has to use nautilus
13:11:52 <ehird> but uh, lol @ mysql complaint
13:12:02 <Deewiant> No, but he was originally asking about the places bar
13:12:16 <ehird> you don't have to run gnome-panel either
13:12:19 <AnMaster> <ais523> e.g. I went and compiled the wireless driver myself, because it was needed to get the wireless to work <-- same. Well it worked. Just ooped at shutdown, just before syncing disks
13:12:20 <ehird> only gnome users run gnome-panel
13:12:39 <ais523> and we run two of them!
13:12:44 <AnMaster> thus had to compile a backported one
13:13:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not run it. But it is installed. mysql is not going to be on my system
13:13:29 <ehird> AnMaster: you are truly a zealot of the highest order
13:13:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't use nautilus much.
13:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, exception is probably working with gimp and similar tools
13:14:14 <soupdragon> AnMaster of the high order or zealots will grant you an audience with nautilus!
13:14:36 <ehird> the inscriptions on the ancient temple of the zealots
13:14:53 <AnMaster> ehird, where being able to see a preview on the files like PICT4382.tiff helps
13:15:10 <ehird> THOV SHALT HAV NO GOD ABOV OPEN SOURC
13:15:36 <ehird> FLASH WILT BE THE ONE THAT ENDS THE EART
13:15:47 <ais523> my wireless driver's in a weird state
13:15:47 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, see the other reason
13:15:55 <ais523> it's been written and packaged, but not added to the distro yet
13:16:02 <AnMaster> I *have* tried KDE4. and I *used* to positively hate gnome
13:16:15 <AnMaster> but things have changed, both the project, possibly also me
13:16:44 <ehird> you don't *hate* it you just complain about it at every possible opportunity
13:17:06 <ehird> dude you just complained about it
13:17:08 <AnMaster> back when it was KDE 3 vs. gnome
13:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, sure I don't love gnome as such.
13:17:58 <AnMaster> But I find it acceptable mostly.
13:19:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't see why you are flaming me for using gnome
13:19:51 <AnMaster> arch is very nice for a desktop..
13:20:02 <AnMaster> just not for a laptop (where I use ubuntu)
13:21:43 <ehird> frqstrbvrqtrstrqrstqrtq
13:22:12 <ais523> *frqstrbvrqtrqtrqrstqrtq
13:22:19 <ehird> *ttttttttttttttttt
13:22:38 <AnMaster> also ais523 complains about ubuntu too
13:22:58 <ais523> yes, they've made some truly stupid decisions
13:23:05 <ehird> is this as boring for you guys as it is for me, listening to AnMaster winge for seven years
13:23:20 <ais523> ehird: oh, I've been filtering it
13:23:28 <AnMaster> ehird, seven years? I'm pretty sure it wasn't in 2003 that I joined
13:23:58 <ehird> ais523: can you cut off a little knob of your filter and give it to me?
13:24:01 <AnMaster> (I wasn't on irc in 2003 even.)
13:24:18 <ais523> ehird: I don't think so
13:24:28 <ais523> it's kind-of hard to share mental processes between people
13:24:34 <AnMaster> what exactly are you filtering?
13:24:42 <ehird> don't tell him, this is fun
13:24:49 <ais523> conversations I'm not particularly interested in
13:24:57 <AnMaster> ais523, oh well, everyone does that
13:25:08 <AnMaster> I do the same when ehird and augur talk linguistics mostly
13:25:16 <ehird> i don't talk linguistics you dolt
13:25:32 <AnMaster> ehird, okay augur does. but you does seem to take part partly
13:25:40 <ehird> only when it dominates the channel, duh
13:25:43 <ehird> it's called a conversation
13:25:49 <ehird> of which this channel is one continuous one
13:29:28 <ehird> stop him being an idiot and i'll stop arguing :|||||||||||||||||||||||\\\\\\\\\\\
13:29:34 <ehird> whoa those |s are blue green
13:38:54 <ehird> http://www.themilliondollartagcloud.com/
13:41:58 <ais523> I'm surprised the whole million-dollar homepage thing worked
13:42:06 <ais523> who'd pay 1$ for a 1-pixel advert?
13:42:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> trippy subpixels <-- I don't see that effect of course. Long live greyscale antialias. But those | are sharp. Looks like they are rendered exactly one pixel wide, and well adjusted to the screen pixels
13:42:35 <ehird> Ooh, AnMaster is in "look at me my technology is SUPERIOR you care about this and want me to tell you all about it"
13:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm just amused at that *you* is complaining about sub pixels :P
13:43:13 <ais523> wow, the combination of your two comments, to me, has given me a terrible thought
13:43:22 <ais523> you pay by the 1/3 of a pixel
13:43:35 <ais523> you'd need a subpixel mouse too to be able to click on them
13:43:41 <ehird> I never complained about subpixels.
13:43:44 <ehird> I just said it was trippy.
13:43:56 <ehird> ais523: no, clicking on a pixel zooms it into three pixels
13:44:01 <AnMaster> ais523, there is nothing on that site that looks vaguely like an about page...
13:44:18 <ais523> oh, I didn't actually visit the site
13:44:30 <ais523> juts guessed what it was about from the name, and started talking about something similar I knew about
13:44:35 <ehird> million dollar homepage or " " tag cloud
13:44:58 <ehird> I wonder if there's a better name for output than print.
13:45:03 <ais523> it was the homepage that I knew about
13:45:13 <ais523> million dollar "hello world"
13:45:22 <ehird> anmaster: You do realise that doesn't disambiguate one bit?
13:45:26 <ais523> hmm, should be shortened
13:45:29 <ehird> BOTH are million dollar.
13:45:39 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> http://www.themilliondollartagcloud.com/
13:45:48 <ehird> And then we started talking about http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/ instead
13:45:51 <ehird> Of which the former is a ripoff
13:45:53 <AnMaster> that's the only site I saw mentioned
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13:53:19 <ehird`> the most annoying thing about Emacs is its tiling handling
13:53:38 <ehird`> C-x C-b q doesn't get rid of the $NAME_OF_WHAT_IT_IS it creates
13:53:42 <ehird`> but e.g. q on a Lisp error does
13:54:01 <ehird`> also, it should be hover-to-focus; I wonder if anyone's written elisp to do that?
13:54:09 -!- ehird has quit.
13:54:16 <ehird`> no need for colloquy if i'm futzing with emacs
13:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird`, it takes a bit of customization I find
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14:00:00 <AnMaster> once you done that it is very nice.
14:01:41 <ehird`> Well, it isn't a very spectacular IRC client (just good); and it isn't a good Emacs citizen.
14:01:57 <ehird`> For instance, the IRC buffers' names should be enclosed in asterisks, because they are temporary, not to be saved.
14:02:05 <ehird`> But they're not; they're just "#channel@server".
14:02:29 <AnMaster> ehird`: also, they aren't are they. Logging?
14:02:29 <ais523> aren't there at least 3 emacs IRC clients already?
14:02:32 <ehird`> No. I don't have to send patches to every piece of software I criticise.
14:02:46 <ehird`> AnMaster: The buffer's contents itself, including ERC> prompt etc, are not saved, no.
14:02:50 <AnMaster> ais523: think so. One is dead iirc
14:02:52 <ehird`> The logs are a separate entity.
14:02:59 <ehird`> The buffer is transient.
14:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird`: but where would we be if I *agreed* with you
14:03:19 <ehird`> If you aren't expecting to go C-x C-s every now and then, it's transient.
14:03:36 <ehird`> Also, why on earth does it restrict the width of messageses to a small portion of the Emacs width?
14:03:41 <ehird`> That's very inconsistent with the rest of Emacs.
14:03:52 <ehird`> Oddly enough, it doesn't do it for messages you enter until you send them.
14:04:01 <AnMaster> ehird`: doesn't do that here..
14:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird`, there are tons of settings for it
14:04:40 <ehird`> http://imgur.com/0QRMW.png
14:04:56 <ehird`> That is no excuse for bad defaults.
14:06:03 <ehird`> Aww; is it just me, or can you not do C-x C-f http://imgur.com/0QRMW.png and have it automatically download and open it in Emacs?
14:06:11 <ehird`> Perhaps it needs tramp and I haven't loaded it properly or something.
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14:08:26 <AnMaster> ehird`, I don't think I tried that ever
14:08:49 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that is possible with tramp, but possibly the syntax is wrong, or something like that
14:08:53 <AnMaster> and if it isn't possible there is probably some elisp code somewhere for it
14:09:09 <ehird`> Emacs falling short of a unified object environment makes sad panda sad.
14:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird`, it isn't written in smalltalk ;P
14:10:10 <ehird`> It's not like Common Lisp was the first standardised language with an object system or anything
14:10:41 <ehird`> And hey, it's not as if CLOS, the Common Lisp Object System, is the most advanced and subtle object system in existance today
14:10:48 <ehird`> Nope, no object heritage in Lisp at all.
14:11:15 <AnMaster> (pointless to try humour, ehird` never gets jokes anyway)
14:11:19 <ehird`> AnMaster: Indeed, and it's not as if RMS has no idea what Common Lisp is and has ignored it for its entire existance, thus not updating Emacs based on any ideas from it. Wait, that part is actually true.
14:13:34 <ehird`> I realised you weree joking, it just wasn't funny.
14:13:54 <ehird`> Blatantly irrelevant and boringly unadorned statements followed up with an emoticon do not equate to humour.
14:15:40 <ais523> ehird`: sometimes they do
14:15:46 <ais523> sometimes I fly around in a spaceship :>
14:15:57 <ehird`> That wasn't really humour.
14:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird`, was that supposed to be interpreted as a subjective or objective steatement?
14:16:26 <ehird`> Besides, "sometimes I fly around in a spaceship" with no context isn't so much irrelevant as a complete non-sequitur. And I'm not sure I could call it boring.
14:16:45 <ais523> a non-sequitur is irrelevant by definition, isn't it?
14:16:47 <AnMaster> ais523, that reminds me of something. I can't place it though
14:17:13 <ehird`> ais523: Sure, but it's a massive *exaggeration* of irrelevance.
14:17:20 <ehird`> Exaggeration is pretty much the basis of all humour.
14:17:52 <ehird`> Anyway, as I said, that was just more of an amusing nonsensicality rather than anything approximating a joke.
14:18:49 <ais523> hmm... it's sort of an in-joke, minus the joke
14:19:04 <ehird`> It's a very valid in-.
14:19:32 <AnMaster> ehird`, ForAll x [ Non-sequitur(x) → Irrelevant(x) ] is false given that you said that Non-sequitur("sometimes I fly around in a spaceship") and that it was *not* Irrelevant("sometimes I fly around in a spaceship") as well
14:19:56 <AnMaster> but couldn't be arsed to locate the proper unicode symbols
14:20:03 <ehird`> You know what's interesting? People who can't read English properly and interpret statements wrongly.
14:21:23 <ehird`> (A x. nonsequitur(x) -> irrelevant(x)) & (Most x. humorous(x) -> exaggerated(x)) & (A x. humorous(x) ->cancels-out-> lame(x))
14:21:38 <AnMaster> -_- you missed the humor *again*
14:22:02 <ehird`> ais523: Just out of curiosity... did you see any humour in "ehird`, ForAll x [ Non-sequitur(x) → Irrelevant(x) ] is false
14:22:02 <ehird`> given that you said that Non-sequitur("sometimes I fly around in a
14:22:02 <ehird`> spaceship") and that it was *not* Irrelevant("sometimes I fly
14:22:02 <ehird`> around in a spaceship") as well"?
14:22:08 <ehird`> I just saw AnMaster's typical whining.
14:22:34 <ais523> I saw the ForAll, got Mathematica flashbacks, and stopped reading
14:22:58 <ais523> also, you somehow managed to word-wrap your last comment, which is /very/ strange behaviour for IRC
14:23:09 <ais523> normally you leave that for the other person's client...
14:23:19 <AnMaster> ehird`, never happened to me on irc
14:23:30 <ais523> ehird`: do you have autofill on by default?
14:23:32 <ehird`> ERC wraps lines by default.
14:23:36 <ehird`> I selected and middle-clicked to paste.
14:23:53 <ehird`> I know you customised ERC; but you were saying that it never happened to you, as a defense of ERC.
14:23:54 <AnMaster> ehird`, it doesn't do that here
14:23:57 <ehird`> ERC's default behaviour is to do this.
14:24:02 <ehird`> Therefore, you are wrong.
14:24:11 <AnMaster> ehird`, and yes I agree the default behaviour is sub-optimal
14:24:22 <ehird`> So don't try and defend ERC by saying it doesn't do that, because it does.
14:24:40 <AnMaster> ehird`, I said I never hit that one
14:25:04 <AnMaster> possibly I got rid of it thanks to changing some other related setting for a different purpose
14:25:18 <AnMaster> like changing the fill mode of erc to better suite my tastes
14:25:32 <AnMaster> I think that is what fixed the ~ 80 columns wrap
14:25:39 <AnMaster> but I wasn't doing it for that reason
14:25:58 <AnMaster> same thing probably affected word wrapping
14:26:14 <AnMaster> ehird`, so what are you going on about
14:26:22 <ehird`> (space line is actually blank). Interesting; SISC's unspecific value differs from returning no values. They both output "nothing", but (values) causes an extra newline. Strange.
14:26:35 <ehird`> Wonder if there's any reason for that; Java heritage, perhaps?
14:29:19 <AnMaster> ais523, those mathematical flashbacks. Painful are they?
14:29:29 <ais523> AnMaster: *Mathematica
14:29:30 <ehird`> "matematical flashbacks"
14:29:34 <ais523> there's quite a difference in the one letter
14:30:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what I meant and thought I typed was mathematica
14:37:41 <ehird`> http://www.acooke.org/ is now neither lowercase nor ridiculously crowded^Wpacked :(
14:37:53 <ehird`> WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU! you're never too old to write a malbolge hello world again!
14:38:25 <ehird`> at least it has a spot on the small page, good to know he's still proud of his only real achievement
14:55:50 <AnMaster> ehird`, it used to be lowercase? And what do you mean "only real achievement"
14:56:06 <ehird`> He used to type in all-lowercase; see f.e. his Malbolge hello world page.
15:19:48 <AnMaster> ehird`, when was that hello world ga search?
15:20:37 <AnMaster> "500mhz nt box with 96mb memory" hm. Could fit if it was an old one I guess
15:20:43 <ehird`> "it took a few hours to generate the program on a 500mhz nt box with 96mb memory"
15:20:44 <ehird`> it took a few hours to generate the program on a 500mhz nt box with 96mb memory
15:20:49 <ehird`> i used clisp because it came with suse linux. it's a pretty solid implementation, but not as fast as some others (it's an exception to what i said above - it only compiles to byte code, like java). when it became clear i needed more memory than my own laptop (32mb) i "borrowed" my work's nt machine (96mb) and switched to corman lisp because it was faster and clisp seemed to be having a problem with large data sets. corman lisp doesn't
15:20:50 <ehird`> implement quite as much of the standard as clisp (full standard implementations do exist, but the missing bits aren't used much anyway) and is win32 only (it includes a very nice interface to win32 dlls). if you're thinking of starting with lisp, either would be a good start - see www.lisp.org for more details (if you're on win32 and would like to access c libraries or like a nice gui (ide), i'd recommend corman lisp, but the gui isn't
15:21:08 <ehird`> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
15:21:08 <ehird`> "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
15:21:08 <ehird`> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
15:21:14 <ehird`> <link type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" href="old.css" />
15:21:23 <ehird`> XHTML wasn't popular in 2000, I don't think, so let's say 2001+.
15:21:35 <ehird`> And programmerly types tend to hold on to older hardware.
15:21:39 <AnMaster> ehird`, or the page has been reformatted since them
15:21:59 <ehird`> The page has never changed design afaik
15:22:26 <AnMaster> ehird`, I have a vague memory reading it before, don't remember the green headers
15:23:07 <AnMaster> meh it only has it from 2008 onwards
15:23:37 <ehird`> I know how to work it out
15:23:47 <ehird`> Malbolge was so difficult to understand when it arrived that it took two years for the first Malbolge program to appear. The program was not even written by a human being: it was generated by a beam search algorithm designed by Andrew Cooke and implemented in Lisp.
15:24:05 <ehird`> Maybe 2001, if the year just rolled over
15:24:22 <ehird`> (i.e. malbolge dec 1998, acooke jan 2001)
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15:27:20 <ehird`> Corman Lisp on Win32 in 2000. Why do I miss out on all the fun? :P
15:31:44 <Deewiant> Is that very different from Corman Lisp on Win32 in 2010
15:32:10 <ehird`> You Windowsers today and your sevens and your Arrow Snapeek.
15:32:26 <ehird`> Uphill, in the snow, both ways, with 2000 Professional, and Classic chrome.
15:32:53 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode.").
15:36:47 <soupdragon> what's wrong with (merge x y >>= \m -> parse (m::zs)) ++ (parse (y::zs) >>= \z -> merge x z)
15:37:11 <ehird`> Also merge::?,parse::?.
15:39:39 <ehird`> Returns incorrect results?
15:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird`, oh you had it good didn't you?
15:39:56 <ehird`> soupdragon: Howso? What are the types of merge and parse?
15:40:29 <soupdragon> merge :: Derivation -> Derivation -> list Derivation
15:40:43 <ehird`> What language is this? What is -- ok, I give up
15:40:43 <soupdragon> parse :: list Derivation -> list Derivation
15:42:46 <AnMaster> ehird`, in Windows ME it was uphill *all three ways*
15:43:01 <ehird`> Bah! Windows ME could run Winhugs, I'm sure.
15:43:09 <ehird`> A veritable playground of programmification.
15:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird`, couldn't windows 2000 professional do that too?
15:44:16 <ehird`> Apparently WinHugs even runs on '95.
15:44:24 <ehird`> AnMaster: Yes, but I was rebutting your HIDEOUS LIES that Windows Me was worse!
15:44:35 <soupdragon> I need to use dynamic programming oh god
15:44:38 <ehird`> Every Windows 95 or above can run Lisp and Haskell and therefore they are good. :P:
15:44:38 <Deewiant> If something runs on ME it probably runs on 95 and 98
15:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird`, You weren't woken up every day with a bluescreen
15:44:51 <ehird`> Deewiant: Me -> 98, yes, but 98 !-> 95.
15:45:02 <ehird`> 98 added quite a few more APIs and also intrinsically tied IE to the system.
15:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird`, and: I used windows 2.something once
15:45:12 <Deewiant> Yes, but most things don't use them
15:45:28 <ehird`> Deewiant: I played with Windows 95 for a few days and quite a lot of stuff works on 98 but not 95.
15:45:31 <Deewiant> Most things that would run on ME, that is
15:45:31 <AnMaster> it was uphill more than all three ways. Even the fourth way was uphill!
15:45:43 <ehird`> soupdragon: I wonder if language support for dynamic programming is a good idea.
15:46:07 <AnMaster> ehird`, get haskell to run on linux 1.0 (linux 0.0.1 is just not worth trying I fear)
15:46:19 <ehird`> Hugs is pretty portable.
15:46:24 <soupdragon> this algorithm is so complex I can't do it
15:46:48 <soupdragon> and the efficent ones in the literature are even harder
15:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird`, okay then, if you get a linux 0.0.1 system to boot in some emulator (probably someone has already done this) then I challenge you to get linux running on it
15:47:52 <AnMaster> soupdragon, dynamic programming for what?
15:48:19 <ehird`> Windows Me: Old school! Play around with the system! THE WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER Windows 2000: More... 2000! Which will win the battle for the retro platform to run Lisp and Haskell on???????????????
15:48:35 <ehird`> Honorary contender: 98. Like Me, but less crashy. LAME
15:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird`, there is Windows 95 too. You forgot it in there.
15:52:16 <AnMaster> ehird`, and the challenger of the week: Windows NT 3.1!
15:52:33 <ehird`> Dishonorary contender: 95. Reasonable UI, well-performing, doesn't crash much, doesn't have IE fudged in.
15:52:37 <ehird`> Who would ever want that?
15:53:12 <AnMaster> ehird`, 2000 doesn't crash either. And isn't really old school
15:53:44 <ehird`> Yes, it's a shame it isn't more old school; it would have a better standing in the retro platform to run Lisp and Haskell on contest.
15:53:51 <ehird`> On the other hand, IT IS MORE 2000
15:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird`, windows NT 3.1 still beats it
15:54:26 <ehird`> 3.1 is useless and futzy!
15:54:41 <ehird`> So can NT 4, but both only in server form.
15:55:15 <ehird`> Your mother was a mips.
15:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird`, as for windows nt server having no UI? really?
15:56:31 <AnMaster> ehird`, so it had on x86? I see
15:56:40 <ehird`> Yes... Windows NT is a GUI system...
15:57:30 <AnMaster> ehird`, what is the source for nt 4 having no GUI on alpha?
15:57:37 <AnMaster> since I can't find it googling
15:57:52 <ehird`> If you want a source find one yourself.
15:58:01 <ehird`> I don't know of a source.
16:01:22 <AnMaster> ehird`, I conclude that without further evidence (of which I can't find any) this is probably a myth
16:02:46 <ehird`> Hmm, well it seems some version could
16:02:50 <ehird`> http://www.alphant.com/ant_faq.shtml
16:02:53 <ehird`> Perhaps MIPS had no GUI
16:03:02 <ehird`> or perhaps 4 dropped the gui, with its switching to the 95 gui
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16:04:23 <AnMaster> ehird`, well I didn't suggest you lied intentionally
16:04:59 <ehird`> "Latest blog article: Mininova limits its activities to Content Distribution service"
16:04:59 <ehird`> *BAM!* That was the sound of Mininova finally being bludgeoned to death.
16:06:56 <AnMaster> ehird`, which of these sounds most idiomatic: "No other <noun> was affected." or "No other <nouns> were affected."
16:07:08 <AnMaster> where you replace noun/nouns with some other word
16:07:52 <AnMaster> so it depends on the noun. And I suppose there is no simple set of rules for it :/
16:08:02 <ehird`> No, I didn't say that.
16:08:30 <AnMaster> sorry but what did you mean then?
16:09:21 <ehird`> I just couldn't get a feel of the sentence without seeing it in full.
16:10:45 <ais523> AnMaster: "tables" if there's more than one other table that could be affected
16:11:03 <ehird`> The former doesn't make senes if there's just one.
16:11:17 <ais523> ehird`: it does if there's just one more, I think
16:11:28 <ais523> although you could be clearer and say "The other table was not affected"
16:11:37 <AnMaster> ais523, there could be due to cascade I guess. hm
16:11:59 <AnMaster> well yeah there could have been
16:12:05 <ais523> they're both right, and I don't think people are consistent as to which they use
16:15:42 <AnMaster> from an old MS security bullentin: "RPC over TCP is not intended to be used in hostile environments such as the internet. More robust protocols such as RPC over HTTP are provided for hostile environments."
16:15:54 <AnMaster> anyone else who can spot the error?
16:16:12 <ehird`> Obviously it means directly over TCP.
16:18:16 <AnMaster> ehird`, true. But it is still slightly funny
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16:34:44 <ehird`> So, #esoteric is eight years old this year.
16:34:50 <ehird`> Well; in December, I think.
16:36:26 <ehird`> That's not really young.
16:36:54 <ais523> I assumed it would be older than I was
16:37:21 <ehird`> When were you born again?
16:37:49 <ehird`> IRC was created in 1988...
16:38:04 -!- Asztal has joined.
16:38:17 <ehird`> And linpeople started in 1995, becoming OPN in 1998 and Freenode in 2002.
16:38:35 <ehird`> Seriously; you thought #esoteric was created in 1987 or earlier...?
16:38:41 <ais523> wow, /IRC/ is that young?
16:38:47 <ais523> I sort-of assume it's been around forever
16:38:59 <ais523> Usenet has been, after all
16:39:15 <ais523> ehird`: I'm the sort of person who could plausibly believe that IRC is older than the Web
16:39:15 <ehird`> Usenet was conceived in 1979.
16:39:22 <ehird`> It was publicly established in 1980.
16:40:02 <ehird`> By Christmas 1990, Berners-Lee had built all the tools necessary for a working Web: the HyperText Transfer Protocol (HTTP) 0.9, the HyperText Markup Language (HTML), the first Web browser (named WorldWideWeb, which was also a Web editor), the first HTTP server software (later known as CERN httpd), the first web server (http://info.cern.ch), and the first Web pages that described the project itself
16:40:20 <ehird`> By Christmas 1990, Berners-Lee had built all the tools necessary for a working Web: the HyperText Transfer Protocol (HTTP) 0.9, the HyperText Markup Language (HTML), the first Web browser (named WorldWideWeb, which was also a Web editor), the first HTTP server software (later known as CERN httpd), the first web server (http://info.cern.ch), and the first Web pages that described the project itself
16:40:25 <ehird`> In 1984 Berners-Lee returned to CERN, and considered its problems of information presentation: physicists from around the world needed to share data, and with no common machines and no common presentation software. He wrote a proposal in March 1989 for "a large hypertext database with typed links", but it generated little interest. His boss, Mike Sendall, encouraged Berners-Lee to begin implementing his system on a newly acquired NeXT
16:40:25 <ehird`> workstation. He considered several names, including Information Mesh, The Information Mine (turned down as it abbreviates to TIM, the WWW's creator's name) or Mine of Information (turned down because it abbreviates to MOI which is "Me" in French), but settled on World Wide Web[1].
16:40:32 <ehird`> In 1984 Berners-Lee returned to CERN, and considered its problems of information presentation: physicists from around the world needed to share data, and with no common machines and no common presentation software. He wrote a proposal in March 1989 for "a large hypertext database with typed links", but it generated little interest. His boss, Mike Sendall, encouraged Berners-Lee to begin implementing his system on a newly acquired NeXT
16:40:33 <ehird`> workstation. He considered several names, including Information Mesh, The Information Mine (turned down as it abbreviates to TIM, the WWW's creator's name) or Mine of Information (turned down because it abbreviates to MOI which is "Me" in French), but settled on World Wide Web[1].
16:40:36 <Asztal> IRC itself was created in 1988, I thought
16:40:46 <ehird`> On August 6, 1991, Berners-Lee posted a short summary of the World Wide Web project on the alt.hypertext newsgroup. This date also marked the debut of the Web as a publicly available service on the Internet.
16:41:35 <Asztal> One day I'm going to make this thing automatically fetch logs.
16:42:34 <ehird`> Here's an interesting factoid: #haskell was founded by a ~15 year old.
16:42:57 <ehird`> ...being John Resig, creator of jQuery.
16:43:11 <ehird`> (15 when it was created, that is.)
16:44:56 <ehird`> Could have been younger, actually: all the wiki says is "late 90s".
16:48:28 <ehird`> ais523: is there an Emacs keycombo for kill-buffer-and-detile?
16:48:47 <ais523> not by default, I think
16:48:54 <ais523> but that sort of thing is a trivial .emacsrc addition
16:49:22 <ais523> you can tell I've been writing too many roguelike bots recently
16:49:57 <ais523> if you've spent hours poking around .nethackrc and .crawlrc then you get used to that naming convention
16:50:28 <ehird`> hmm... there isn't a single platform where Emacs even remotely follows conventions
16:50:34 <ehird`> not even old-style unix
16:50:45 <ehird`> all the platforms it fit into, if there ever were any, are now long dead
16:52:59 <pikhq> Its conventions are older than the platforms it runs on.
16:53:17 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#History microsoft used to be part of tiny usenet :-D
16:53:51 <ehird`> ah, perhaps not the discussion groups, reading the text
16:55:59 <ehird`> It's 28 days to go until 6000 September 1993
16:57:03 <ehird`> Let's take over the internet and purge it of the infection for 6001.
16:57:07 <ais523> see, the Eternal September is ages ago, and I assumed it was a relatively recent thing compared to the length of time the Internet had been around
16:57:24 <ais523> well, the various major protocols of it
16:57:33 <ehird`> Then it will be known: That the September of 1993, did then go on for over 16 years,
16:57:57 <ehird`> Finally coming to rest, and passing on the torch to February 2010, after 6000 days.
17:02:41 <ehird`> Window managers that don't let me give keyboard input to one window while still keeping another on top irritate me.
17:03:15 <ehird`> soupdragon: You know not of what it is?
17:03:22 <ehird`> Then go back to the sewers!
17:03:33 <ehird`> soupdragon: hey i'm kidding
17:03:45 <ehird`> i was BORN two years after the eternal september started
17:03:52 <ehird`> i'm, like, 3 minutes old
17:04:05 <ehird`> ok technically one year and eleven months, give or take some days
17:04:49 <ehird`> It'll be the six thousandth of September, nineteen ninety three.
17:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:05:44 <ais523> sdate is a fun program, all sorts of programs break in all sorts of fun ways when given days of the month above 31
17:46:19 -!- jpc has joined.
18:28:46 <ehird`> Locusts; swarms thereof.
18:30:52 <oerjan> Pianos; sailing through the sky.
18:34:07 <ehird`> Ontology; disputing technological oligarchies.
18:39:01 <oerjan> Pheromones; logic through invisibility.
18:44:05 <ehird`> Jackdaws; unto which they must die.
18:48:32 <oerjan> Irony; lost on the world.
18:48:45 <ehird`> Poppycock; how absurd.
18:49:15 <oerjan> Heroin; saving the planet from ambushes.
18:49:29 <ehird`> Talisman; opening your direct-interface specimen.
18:49:46 <oerjan> Tasmanian; a deal with the devil.
18:49:54 <ais523> Ravens; perching on a rainbow.
18:50:40 <oerjan> Rendering; a ray of sunshine.
18:50:40 <ehird`> Fractal; an image (one type of image is, quoting ehird, a fractal: "Fractal; an image conterningitsulf... STACK OVERFLOW
18:50:49 <ehird`> (I even captured the only-similar raspect!)
18:51:35 <oerjan> Imperfection; notably not able.
18:55:17 <ehird`> Tracksuits; what do they bring to the table?
18:55:38 <oerjan> Food; but that is not suitable.
18:56:06 <ais523> wow, you two have come up with a tremendously deep pun between you there
18:57:17 <ehird`> Tachyons; a bout of them.
18:57:53 <oerjan> Klein bottles; faster on the inside.
18:58:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:58:24 <ehird`> Tapestry; put it on the bin slide.
18:59:02 <oerjan> Slides; tape them to your ruler.
18:59:30 <Sgeo> "sorry for the IM but im looking for your store were you sell the slave pet's bed"
19:00:11 <ehird`> Rhyming; we've suddenly started this, is this crueler?
19:00:35 <oerjan> Disturb; do not move ahead.
19:01:53 <ehird`> Suddenly; I find myself rather dead.
19:02:07 <ais523> Emergency; come out and have a look!
19:02:19 <ehird`> Fuck; ...you, I'd rather stay and read a book.
19:02:30 <oerjan> Negative; reading a ... damn.
19:02:45 <ehird`> Green; the colour of the eggs and ham.
19:03:07 <oerjan> Splat; the sound of eggs falling.
19:03:57 <ehird`> BRB; I hear my mom calling.
19:04:53 <oerjan> Reason; not bought for silver.
19:05:16 <oerjan> </whistles innocently>
19:05:40 <ehird`> Listen; I know you told my friend Ilver.
19:06:19 <oerjan> Ilver; I 'ardly know her.
19:06:58 <ehird`> Kielder; say orange, it'd be radder.
19:07:03 <ais523> Rhyme; the lack of a reason.
19:07:13 <ehird`> Thyme; museli and treason.
19:07:55 <oerjan> Chilli; way up the ladder.
19:08:46 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:13:09 <oerjan> Magic; does not stick.
19:15:35 <ais523> Bring; the thin of thick.
19:16:21 <oerjan> Verb; the adjective of abjective.
19:16:21 <anmaster_l> ais523 or ehird`: In English text do you write "the enter key" or "the Enter key"?
19:16:49 <oerjan> Enter the key; third act.
19:16:52 <ais523> anmaster_l: the second if I'm being formal
19:17:08 <ais523> I'd quite possibly use the first on IRC, though
19:17:39 <anmaster_l> ais523, "the arrow keys" would be like that in formal text though?
19:17:50 <ehird`> Unless you mean the numberpad one.
19:17:59 <ehird`> "press Return", though, not "press the Return key".
19:18:05 <ais523> ehird`: the Return key on this keyboard has ENTER written on it
19:18:12 <ehird`> ais523: your keyboard is dumb.
19:18:19 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what effect that has on your theory, which I also believe to be correct
19:18:29 <anmaster_l> ais523, same, and for unknown reason my key repeat died -_-
19:18:33 <ais523> ok, it also has ` to the left of the spacebar
19:18:44 <ais523> which is also a weird place to put a key
19:18:53 <ais523> for all I know, they put numpad enter the place most people put return
19:19:09 * ehird` fiddles with Frink to get a nice OS X .app for it
19:19:59 <ais523> and as ehird says, it would just be "press Return" if you wanted someone to press it
19:20:10 <ais523> but "the Return key" if you were trying to describe, say, where it was or what colour it was
19:20:29 <anmaster_l> I now ended up with "press Return to return to the main menu"
19:20:37 <anmaster_l> which looks rather out of place in a formal text
19:20:53 <ehird`> "press Return to exit to the main menu"
19:21:03 <ehird`> "to return to the main menu, press Return"
19:21:17 <anmaster_l> good thing we don't have an exit key ;P
19:22:50 <ehird`> e beardseconds -> pi nanometers
19:23:13 <ehird`> Yep, the pinanometers. Who would use any other unit of llength apart from the beardsecond?
19:24:58 <ais523> what do you use for volume? parsec-barns?
19:25:18 <ehird`> 3.0856775813057289536e-12 m^3 (volume)
19:25:52 <ais523> hmm, that's rather small, lightyear-barns might work better
19:26:40 <ehird`> 5912956545363/62500000000000000000000 (exactly 9.4607304725808e-11) m^3 (volume)
19:27:05 <ehird`> it seems like "light century" works
19:27:22 * ehird` promptly does lightcentury := 100 lightyears
19:27:43 <ehird`> http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt ;; take a look at how many units frink comes with...
19:29:35 <ehird`> (four score + seven) days
19:32:38 <pikhq> The beardsecond, you say?
19:54:28 <anmaster_l> in English, what are the rules for capital letters in headings?
19:54:49 <ais523> all words capital except very common ones
19:55:01 <oerjan> Plaster them Everywhere Except on Pronouns
19:55:02 <ais523> "the" "and" "a" are likely to not need initial capital letters
19:55:16 <ais523> "of" also takes a lowercase
19:55:32 <ais523> basically, pretty much any word that's interesting is initcaps
19:55:50 <ais523> words needed just for grammatical correctness, or things like "and" and "or" that structure the sentence, are lowercase
19:55:52 <ehird`> anmaster_l: title case is shit
19:55:55 <ais523> and you don't put a full stop at the end
19:56:05 <oerjan> Student Dies of boredom
19:56:21 <ehird`> Like You're Some Sort of Shit-Peddler in the 1800s Marketing Your Shit
19:56:33 <ehird`> Boy-Wonder Coca-Cola Drinker!
19:56:37 <pikhq> ehird`: Except that that had easy-to-remember rules.
19:56:38 <ehird`> "The Astoundment of a Nation"
19:56:57 <anmaster_l> ais523, what about "The use of the word "and" in middle English"
19:57:00 <pikhq> Namely, one would only capitalise Nouns, for such was the Rule of the Age.
19:57:14 <pikhq> anmaster_l: The Use of the Word "And" in Middle English
19:57:17 <ehird`> The Use of the Word "And" in Middle English
19:57:25 <ehird`> The use of the word "and" in Middle English
19:57:32 <ehird`> Oh snap, I just injected some sanity
19:57:52 <ais523> journal article titles tend to be sentence-case
19:57:57 <ais523> some newer book titles, too
19:58:05 <oerjan> And and Or or Then, then.
19:58:19 <ehird`> (Real actual wordism.)
19:58:22 <ais523> anmaster_l: also sentence case, I expect
19:58:39 <anmaster_l> oerjan, I have to say that you forgot that you could insert a "that that" there.
19:58:49 <ehird`> Redrawerredrawers is a word, which delights me. I wish redlorryellowlorry was too.
19:59:22 <pikhq> Also, the rules are a *tiny* bit hard, because they vary from style guide to style guide (re: title case)
19:59:35 <oerjan> forgo that that that that forgot
19:59:45 <ehird`> ais523: "redrawers", it ends with.
19:59:52 <ehird`> That could be re-drawers, but I read it as red drawers.
19:59:55 <ehird`> Red drawer red drawers.
20:00:20 <anmaster_l> ehird`, I think he meant "red lorry yellow"
20:00:23 <ehird`> It is also the real longest word you can type with just one hand with QWERTY.
20:00:38 <ais523> that was almost certainly coined for logologists to enjoy
20:01:26 <ais523> also, I can type anything, such as this comment, with one hand, if I could type it with two; it just takes longer
20:01:34 <anmaster_l> Redrawerredrawers <-- how does it parse: "re-drawer re-drawers"? Or "red drawers re-drawers"?
20:01:44 <ais523> barring, possibly, things that need stupid modifier-key combinations
20:02:05 <anmaster_l> re-drawer red-drawers or re-drawer re-drawers
20:02:47 <ehird`> anmaster_l: it's an entirely separate word
20:02:49 <ehird`> it doesn't parse any way
20:02:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:03:19 <ehird`> It might be a wordlist error for reddrawer\nreddrawers
20:03:47 <ehird`> % grep '^redrawer' /usr/share/dict/words
20:04:00 <ehird`> devertebrated it is, then
20:04:54 <ais523> about the whole "'typewriter' on the top row" thing, I wonder if that's coincidence or deliberate?
20:05:20 <ehird`> http://icon.shef.ac.uk/Moby/
20:05:25 <ehird`> Moby wordlist has the bug, so probably a copy of it
20:05:52 <ais523> anmaster_l: "typewriter" can be typed using just the top row of letters on a QWERTY keyboard
20:06:08 <soupdragon> ehird you're getting a lot of data right now, why?
20:06:13 <anmaster_l> ais523, btw how do you write acronyms in plural?
20:06:27 <anmaster_l> ais523, example here is (yes I dislike this module -_-): DBMS
20:06:46 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
20:06:47 <ais523> anmaster_l: the formal grammar books say to use apostrophe-s, as in DBMS's, but nobody does that
20:06:55 <ais523> lowercase s after capital letters is used by everyone in practice
20:07:01 <ehird`> ais523: that aggravates me
20:07:08 <ehird`> "80's", especially, makes me rage
20:07:14 <ais523> possibly because 's for plurals is obviously wrong, despite being recommended in this particular case
20:07:16 <ehird`> we don't need more fucking exceptions in the fucking language!
20:07:30 <oerjan> aggravates, that's another
20:07:32 <ehird`> english style guides are bullshit anyway
20:07:41 <ehird`> serving only idiots in ivory towers who think they define the language
20:07:53 <pikhq> ehird`: Depends on the style guide, actually.
20:08:10 <pikhq> Some of the extant style guides are "The style that will be used for this particular publication".
20:08:22 <ehird`> yes but that's just controlfreakism
20:08:31 <pikhq> (those are at least vaguely reasonable in concept)
20:08:33 <ais523> still, grocers' apostrophe's are just annoying and typoy and bad grammar
20:08:43 <ais523> it's even worse when a grammar book requires them in certain cases!
20:09:19 <ais523> (the grammar books also advise pluralising individual letters with 's, as in "there are six e's in this sentence"
20:09:30 <ais523> (that's more excusable, because there's no obvious right way to do that)
20:09:40 <ehird`> There are six Es in this sentence.
20:09:47 <ehird`> There are six "e"s in this sentence.
20:09:51 <ehird`> There are six 'e's in this sentence.
20:09:56 <ais523> ok, I like your second example
20:10:01 <ais523> probably better than the other two
20:10:14 <ehird`> I dunno, the third seems nicer; double quotes seem too bulky for such a simple quotation.
20:10:24 <ais523> the 's looks out of place there
20:10:27 <ehird`> What we need is Joy/Factor-style quotaations in English, obviously.
20:10:29 <ais523> maybe it would work better with smart quotes
20:10:32 <ehird`> There are six [e]s in this sentence.
20:10:41 <ais523> There are six «e»s in this sentence
20:10:54 <ehird`> He said that [she said that [I must die]].
20:10:58 <anmaster_l> <ais523> still, grocers' apostrophe's are just annoying and typoy and bad grammar <-- why is it called that
20:11:33 <ais523> anmaster_l: because allegedly, grocers used to use them a lot
20:11:34 <ehird`> There are six 「e」s in this sentence.
20:11:58 <ais523> even nowadays, you can walk past a greengrocer's stall and see them advertising carrot's and potatoe's, sometimes
20:12:13 * ehird` wonders how good WebNet's definitions are
20:12:13 <ais523> but I think they do it deliberately nowadays because people expect it, not because they think it's right
20:12:32 <pikhq> ehird`: Ah, Japanese punctuation.
20:13:05 <anmaster_l> if you are suggesting usage of "'s" should be consistent then may I recommend dropping "it's"
20:13:48 <anmaster_l> you would have to write out "it is" I guess, but that is a small price to pay for consistency
20:13:59 <ehird`> its/it's is perfectly consistent.
20:14:10 <ehird`> If you disagree, you do not understand their expansions (well, only the latter has an expansion).
20:14:29 <ehird`> it's -> it is. its -> his/her for objects.
20:14:40 <ais523> "it's" is consistent, you'd expect "its" to also be spelt "it's" though
20:14:50 <ais523> if you were trying to make it consistent with nouns rather than pronouns
20:14:56 <ehird`> I don't say "she's wardrobe".
20:15:07 <ais523> yep, because pronouns don't follow rules at all
20:15:33 <ais523> personally, I consider pronouns to be inconsistent-but-there's-nothing-you-can-do-about-it
20:15:45 <ehird`> They're not inconsistent -- they're arbitrary.
20:15:48 <anmaster_l> ais523, yes old-"it's" is consistent with "don't" and so on
20:15:57 <anmaster_l> but making both the same would cause confusion
20:16:42 <ehird`> But it's not inconsistent at all.
20:16:47 <ais523> Lewis Carrol used to punctuate "shan't" as "sha'n't"
20:17:13 <anmaster_l> ehird`, well it would be _more_ consistent if you did the same transformation on all of them
20:17:25 <ehird`> Arbitrary is not inconsistent.
20:17:32 <ehird`> And there is certainly no inconsistency with its/it's.
20:17:42 <anmaster_l> ehird`, well okay, there isn't any rule for it to be consistent with. Since all of them are different
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20:19:30 <anmaster_l> ehird`, but it is inconsistent with the nouns
20:19:41 <anmaster_l> "the cat's ball of yarn" "its ball of yarn"
20:20:28 <anmaster_l> and then "ehird's pet" but "your pet" and you would say "my pet"
20:20:54 <anmaster_l> no order in the chaos that is the English language :/
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20:23:15 <anmaster_l> hrrm why are the usb ports so close to each other on a laptop. There are three next to each other. And they are turned vertically
20:23:38 <anmaster_l> to be able to get hold of the middle one to pull it out without pulling out the outer ones is almost impossible
20:24:11 <ais523> anmaster_l: why would you expect me to know?
20:25:18 <anmaster_l> but if you don't: cya, will be back in an hour or so
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20:32:43 <ehird`> ais523: yow, that was a bad one
20:32:55 <ehird`> hmm... anmaster_l is like the opposite of a solipsist
20:33:03 <ehird`> everyone knows everything except him
20:33:44 <ais523> it's a good thing everyone else in the office has gone home, I'm laughing so loud at seeing your reaction...
20:33:59 <ais523> which is a perfectly appropriate one, of course
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20:55:59 <anmaster_l> ehird`, you claim you know everything? Whoa! Is the Riemann hypothesis true?
20:56:16 <ehird`> ais523: ^ a whoosh of epic proportions
20:56:28 <soupdragon> Riemann hypothesis is a trivial consequence of algebraic geometry
20:56:36 <ehird`> anmaster_l: yes, but your joke was based on a misinterpretation
20:56:40 <ais523> the word "whoosh" is losing its original meaning
20:56:41 <ehird`> I was not even jokingly claiming that I knew everything
20:56:45 <ehird`> so it doesn't even make sense
20:56:48 <anmaster_l> ehird`, on *intentional* misinterpretation
20:57:01 <oerjan> ais523: you could say the air has gone out of that balloon
20:57:01 <ehird`> anmaster_l: You fuck horses? Whoa! I'm calling the police!
20:57:08 <ehird`> ("misinterpretation" looks a lot like "horse" to ME.)
20:57:15 <anmaster_l> <soupdragon> Riemann hypothesis is a trivial consequence of algebraic geometry <- wait what?
20:57:27 <ais523> anmaster_l: soupdragon's trolling you
20:57:57 <ais523> given that the atmosphere in this channel is one such that the regulars can subtly troll each other for months on end, I wouldn't be too surprised
20:58:03 <soupdragon> how can someone that mentions algebraic geometry be stupid?
20:58:21 <ehird`> soupdragon isn't stupid
20:58:28 <ehird`> are you confusing him with nooga, who *is* stupid?
20:58:31 <ehird`> or are you just being an asshole
20:58:36 <anmaster_l> well confused about which one the Riemann hypothesis is then
20:58:48 <ehird`> anmaster_l: NO!! I WAS JOKING! WAAH!
20:58:56 <ehird`> You're such an idiot you don't get jok-- oh, the irony.
20:59:17 <ehird`> Gotta be one to know one. Or however that thingymagic goes.
21:00:30 <anmaster_l> also, are all you seriously thinking "<anmaster_l> ais523, why wouldn't you?" was actually meant *seriously*
21:00:36 <ehird`> I love how whenever I insult anmaster_l he comes up with something really insipid and dull like "omg you're not sleeping well"
21:00:44 <ehird`> What an idiotic reposte
21:00:51 <ehird`> anmaster_l: Let me spell this out for you.
21:01:05 <ehird`> You make a "joke", I make a comment about it. Cue you: "YOU MISSED MY JOKE"
21:01:19 <ehird`> Soupdragon makes a humourous statement, close enough to a joke.
21:01:20 <ais523> anmaster_l: it was just simply unanswerable, and not particularly a useful comment
21:01:23 <ehird`> Someone else even states this is a joke.
21:01:28 <ais523> because it was unanswerable, I didn't answer it
21:01:30 <ehird`> And then you go "well i tink dey're just stupid"
21:01:47 <ehird`> You see, this is ironic because you accuse others of not getting jokes while simultaneously failing to get them yourself.
21:02:03 <ehird`> At least I don't call you stupid when you make a shitty oneliner.
21:02:29 <oerjan> anmaster_l: please stop telling jokes. it only encourages ehird`
21:02:42 <anmaster_l> oerjan, yeah and he is worse at it than me even. :)
21:02:47 <ehird`> Please stop breathing. It only encourages the breathing fairy.
21:03:37 <oerjan> the breathing fairy is fine except when you get coins stuck in your throat
21:04:09 <ehird`> soupdragon: i'm already past the point of no return wrt anmaster_l, don't really give half a shit about him any more
21:04:18 <anmaster_l> oerjan, best way is to ignore him for a bit I guess. Was a while ago that last happened
21:04:49 <ehird`> Please do, then the only idiocy you'll say relating to me will be about how you can't understand the channel without my messages
21:04:56 <oerjan> but it's so annoying to only see half of every conversation!
21:05:00 <anmaster_l> there. Done. That way he can't troll me for a while
21:05:08 <ehird`> Would be nice if you could keep it up for more than five seconds, but, you know.
21:05:27 <anmaster_l> oerjan, thus I guess I should strive for the goal of getting him to ignore me instead
21:06:01 <soupdragon> lol I just don't think you think you think you can could or wouldn't have not unless it was set up such that with what would anyway
21:06:07 <ehird`> I'm not idiotic enough to fragment the channel like that. If I couldn't stand hearing you, I'd just /part.
21:06:26 <ehird`> soupdragon: Has anyone ever been as far etc.
21:06:50 <oerjan> i of ever in away whether in so case of grammar
21:07:16 <soupdragon> oerjan, it's not even that I haven't lacked without which to correctly layout the words!
21:08:14 <oerjan> anyway, beware of AC power. it hertz!
21:09:08 <soupdragon> almost as bad as a splitting head ache
21:09:32 <oerjan> yes, splitting your head certainly aches
21:11:38 <uorygl> Alternating current power.
21:11:50 <uorygl> Alternating current power voltage charge!
21:13:38 <uorygl> Entirely adverb adjective noun sentence!
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21:14:39 <oerjan> dammit i was typing with focus into tatham's puzzles
21:15:45 <uorygl> Negative interjection; noun! Other person negative knowledge identity noun!
21:15:52 <oerjan> reset it completely, and you cannot undo past "n" after typing anything else :(
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22:12:04 <ehird> [[when ken and i described the new features we were proposing for plan 9 C, including inherited structure elements, to bjarne stroustrup, he said, "if you want C++ you know where to find it." and stormed from the room.]] —Rob Pike
22:12:29 <ais523> wait, that's a /stroustrup/ quote?
22:12:36 <ais523> it becomes 10 times more awesome given that context
22:13:11 <pikhq> Man... Plan 9 C is so much better than C++...
22:13:21 <Sgeo_> I don't quite get it. Stroustrup is the inventor of C++, right?
22:13:30 <ais523> Sgeo_: that's why it's funny
22:13:56 <Sgeo_> Oh, he felt that they were reinventing C++ basically
22:14:20 <Sgeo_> I think my sense of humor is dead
22:14:24 <pikhq> Well, they didn't add the unparsable feature to C, so.
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22:19:18 <ehird> i love the image of stroustrup being in the same room as rob pike and ken thompson
22:19:42 <ehird> and his face just getting redder and redder as they talk about the features they're going to add that sound like c++ features to him
22:22:04 <Sgeo_> I don't know who Rob Pike and Ken Thompson are
22:22:31 <pikhq> Sgeo_: You may know them for such things as "UNIX" and "C".
22:23:31 <pikhq> Ken Thompson more-so than Rob Pike.
22:24:17 -!- anmaster_l has quit ("Leaving").
22:26:21 <pikhq> Rob Pike and Ken Thompson are also responsible for Go.
22:33:47 <ehird> rob pike did later editions of unix + major part of plan 9 + go
22:33:55 <ehird> rob pike had nothing to do with c whatsoever
22:34:44 <ehird> or you just meant ken
23:02:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/amc72/since_then_c_has_evolved_considerably_it_has_even/c0ibtge?context=4
23:02:33 <ehird> i want to stab him.
23:03:44 <pikhq> Programming and management are so radically different... Argh.
23:03:55 <pikhq> (I should note that in both cases, I mean "doing them well")
23:04:08 <pikhq> Doing them poorly can, of course, be done by any shmuck.
23:04:18 <ehird> anyone who says "If I were to pursue it, I would be great at the job. I'm very driven, and I excel at nearly everything I do" is essentially degrading every profession in existence
23:04:33 <ehird> by saying that it takes less than a lifetime
23:04:58 <ehird> anyone who says it, therefore, is probably shit at everything and a narcissist to boot
23:06:57 <pikhq> Most definitely a narcissist, probably shit at everything.
23:07:25 <ehird> i hate you so fucking much microsoft, because i activated my LEGIT copy of windows xp five times
23:07:33 <ehird> you force me to either phone you up and deal with your BULLSHIT
23:07:40 <ehird> or just download a serial
23:07:43 <ehird> guess which one i chose, microsoft
23:08:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:12:35 <ehird> Can YOU think of a better hostname than Q? Huh? HUH?
23:26:07 <ehird> my imac display is fucking up
23:26:18 <ehird> I have alternating lines of light/dark, very subtle but i can see them in window shadows
23:26:30 <ehird> and the blue colour used in white/blue alternations around the ui has gone off
23:27:49 <ehird> ...and the bands are only intermittent it seems, ffff
23:39:47 <Sgeo_> ehird, you bought a copy of XP just for the VM?
23:39:59 <ehird> Whatever gave you that impression?
23:40:49 <Sgeo_> You said it was a legit copy
23:41:05 <Sgeo_> I think it's supposed to be one copy per system
23:41:05 <ehird> It's inconceivable that I have a legit copy of XP that is years old.
23:41:15 <Sgeo_> An unused legit copy?
23:41:16 <ehird> Pretty sure that's a new thing
23:43:44 * Sgeo_ is sometimes scared that he might not be a good programmer
23:45:53 <ehird> You aren't! (I am such a bastard.)
23:46:46 * Sgeo_ expected something along those lines from ehird
23:47:16 <Sgeo_> And of course, I can't talk to classmates about this, because in their eyes, I'm superprogrammer. I think it says more about them than it does me
23:48:19 <ehird> Have you improved your programming skills since PSOX?
23:48:28 -!- Pthing has joined.
23:48:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving").
23:48:53 <Sgeo_> The only major project I've really worked on since PSOX I was fired from due to procrastination issues
23:49:16 <ehird> You know, using business terms like "fired" to apply to non-business projects is really dumb.
23:49:23 <ehird> It will infect your mind.
23:50:09 <Sgeo_> Well, I'm no longer part of the project in the capacity of a programmer, although if I learn C#, I can contribute again
23:50:35 -!- coppro has joined.
23:52:10 <coppro> you can fake knowing C#
23:52:20 <Sgeo_> A bit late for that, I know the basics, I think
23:52:28 <Sgeo_> Why is C# so horrible?
23:52:49 <coppro> a) it's controlled by Microsoft b) there are no quality open implementations
23:52:56 <coppro> (the two issues, while related, are not the same)
23:52:58 <ehird> coppro: Uhh, Mono is pretty quality.
23:53:02 <ehird> Anyway, here are the eral reasons:
23:53:06 <coppro> ehird: For the subset it implements, yes
23:53:11 <ehird> - It's just Java + lambdas + LINQ
23:53:17 <ehird> LINQ is basically just Haskell Lite
23:53:24 <ehird> Lambdas are just... lambdas
23:53:28 <ehird> And Java is, ugh, Java.
23:53:38 <ehird> - It's not fun at all!
23:53:39 <Sgeo_> I'm not sure if the new programmer knows anything about LINQ
23:53:53 <Sgeo_> Someone with a quote mark in their name showed up unexpectedly and it caused an SQL error
23:54:00 <coppro> I'm not kidding about faking your name btw
23:54:20 <ehird> Sgeo_: why are you always so tied to utter shit
23:54:31 <ehird> like that asylum guy and this
23:54:47 <coppro> C# isn't utter shit; it's juts unexciting
23:54:57 <ehird> coppro: I'm not talking about C#
23:55:08 <ehird> [23:53] Sgeo_: I'm not sure if the new programmer knows anything about LINQ
23:55:08 <ehird> [23:53] Sgeo_: Someone with a quote mark in their name showed up unexpectedly and it caused an SQL error
23:55:15 <Sgeo_> Oh, and this guy plans to use multi-threading with an SDK that doesn't really co-operate well with multi-t.. no, wait, he plans to start that way, and then switch to single-threading
23:55:24 <Sgeo_> ehird, it's a pre-pre-alpha thing currently
23:55:28 <coppro> thedailywtf.com wants your story
23:55:31 <Sgeo_> Although the fact that even then..
23:55:36 <ehird> Sgeo_: Seriously, you should make a conscious effort to avoid anyone this retarded.
23:55:43 <ehird> All they can do is make you dumber.
23:55:48 <coppro> starting with X and switching to Y later is always bad
23:55:58 <ehird> lol@multi→single threading though
23:56:09 <ehird> Let's write all this complex infrastructure for performance gains... and then remove the performance gains!
23:56:13 <coppro> actually, that's not entirely true
23:56:28 <Sgeo_> He says he usually makes an effort to make everything organized, but this time he just wants results quickly
23:56:41 <Sgeo_> I can't blame him for that, considering that my failure to provide results was problematic
23:56:45 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/cUUbt.png
23:56:45 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAH GOD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
23:57:02 <ehird> Sgeo_: did you care about the project?
23:57:08 <ehird> did you find working on it fun?
23:57:12 <ehird> were you getting paid for doing this?
23:57:22 <Sgeo_> But I liked the project
23:57:32 <Sgeo_> Although I kept getting distracted by things, like Stargate SG-1
23:57:42 <ehird> if A is *very, VERY high* then work. otherwise, if C is high then work. otherwise, if B is high then work.
23:57:45 <ehird> if not, don't work.
23:57:57 <ehird> I assume A isn't *very, VERY high* for you, i.e. you don't care about it more than, say, water.
23:58:14 <Sgeo_> A is very high for me
23:58:26 <Sgeo_> It's a futuristic remake of a game that holds a lot of nostalgic value for me
23:58:31 <ehird> But not very, *very* high. I mean the amount Eliezer Yudkowsky cares about the singularity.
23:58:49 <ehird> I think EY would kill himself if it'd cause the singularity.
23:58:54 <coppro> you are allowed to do X and switch to Y later as long as you keep the switch under an hour's work
23:59:08 <ehird> So, you're not getting paid anything at all.
23:59:11 <ehird> So the final question is...
23:59:13 <coppro> and only to construct another component
23:59:14 <ehird> Did you find working on it fun?
23:59:35 <Sgeo_> Well, not fun as much as interesting
23:59:52 * oerjan vaguely thought EY believed in staying alive at all costs...
23:59:54 <ehird> Clearly not fun enough to make you actually do it, if you found watching Stargate more fun.