00:00:05 Someone did type-level Brainfuck. 00:00:15 pikhq: oh, right, I forggot 00:00:16 forgot 00:00:20 ok, i'll make a quick amendment 00:00:28 hmm, it's just turning over to midnight now 00:00:35 You're four seconds late. 00:00:49 wonder what date I should put on the post 00:01:56 Hmm, my clocks are about 400 milliseconds apart. I wonder which one is off. 00:02:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:02:26 I'm guessing it's the local one. 00:04:16 Okay; post revised. http://ehird.blogspot.com/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html 00:07:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:08:47 * Sgeo wonders if Small Worlds missions are TC 00:09:24 size limit? 00:09:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:10:50 SimonRC, well, not counting any size limits, I guess 00:11:03 ehird: Nice. 00:11:15 Although if it's not possible to have an arbitrary amount of memory, that shouldn't count as close enough to TC, I guess 00:12:09 by that metric c isn't tc 00:13:22 Sgeo: I just chucked that into the discussion, the same way one says "but what about the angular momentum" in a planetary embyology discussion ;-) 00:13:39 ehird: ooh, dunno 00:13:46 c isn't tc 00:13:52 I vaguely remember the existence of a counterargument to the argument that C isn't Turing-complete. 00:13:53 sizeof void* must be finite 00:14:01 uorygl: C + file functions is TC 00:14:04 but pure C is not 00:14:14 That's not a counterargument to the sizeof argument. 00:14:28 What units are sizeofs in? 00:14:37 what if you recompile with larger datatype sizes whenever you run out of space? 00:15:29 SimonRC: that is not C. 00:15:42 uorygl: sizeof returns size_t iirc 00:15:51 and of course sizeof size_t must be finite as well 00:16:55 ehird: what forbids it? 00:17:05 The small worlds tutorial wants me to watch a video on small worlds 00:17:09 c spec, i'm not going to go reading it minutes before i leave. 00:17:27 we've debated this before and camp c-is-not-tc always wins ;) 00:17:38 It's an ad for Small Worlds 00:17:41 * Sgeo mindboggles 00:18:02 SMALL WORLDS SMALL WORLDS SMALL WORLDS ACTIVE WORLDS SECOND LIFE SGEO SGEO SGEO 00:18:02 ↑ what i see 00:18:26 Speaking of Finland, there's someone here who knows Finnish, right? 00:18:48 Um, yes, all the Finns. 00:18:58 fizzie, Deewiant, Ilari, ineiros, maybe more. 00:19:06 Wow. That's many. 00:19:16 Wikipedia says sizeof returns a number of bytes. I guess that's pretty much a killer. 00:19:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:19:41 Does the spec say that the width of a pointer has to be constant? :-P 00:19:50 Define width. 00:20:08 uorygl: bytes need not be 8 bits 00:20:13 The thing that sizeof says. 00:20:49 I'm going now. Bye. 00:20:52 True, assuming the C spec allows it. So maybe we can just say one byte is infinite. 00:20:55 See you. 00:20:58 No, you can't. 00:20:58 bye 00:21:00 I'd explain but → 00:21:07 -!- ehird has quit. 00:21:15 Aww. 00:22:21 assuming that the implementation says that the effect of integer overflow is undefined... 00:23:00 I think one could have a C impl that recompiled when programs ran out of space 00:23:33 oh, but what about overflow from left-shift... 00:23:35 Ok, Small Worlds is essentially impossible to navigate without buttons getting in the way, and there are no camera controls, except a 2 mode zoom-in/zoom-out button 00:23:55 if the program runs out of heap space, one resizes the world to give more heap space 00:24:22 if the program tries to calculate a size_t to allocate or index with that causes integer overflow, resize similarly 00:26:45 uorygl: Need a Finn? 00:27:29 ineiros: yeah! Just go through all of Zerwolf's images on DeviantArt and translate everything. :-P 00:27:39 Here, let me find it. 00:28:30 http://zerwolf.deviantart.com/art/Happy-Independence-Day-145781696 00:28:53 Why are "hyvää" and "päivää" in the form they're in? 00:32:13 It's a partitive. It's used in stuff like "Good morning" (Hyv huomenta) and so on. And there should be no space in "itsenisyyspiv". 00:33:36 I guess that makes enough sense. 00:34:13 Are you studying Finnish? 00:36:20 No, though I would like to learn a Scandinavian language eventually. 00:36:43 I just happened to come across a Finnish artist. 00:40:27 Finnish is not considered to be in the Scandinavian language family. 00:40:39 I didn't know there was a Scandinavian language family. 00:41:49 I meant languages from the ill-defined Scandinavian region. 00:41:51 They're a set of partially mutually intelligible Germanic languages. 00:42:18 Yes, I figured you might have meant that, but there's the ambiguity. 00:43:45 * uorygl nods. 00:43:54 uorygl: Also, regarding constant pointer width: C requires that a char only store naturals, that UCHAR_MAX be the maximum natural that char can store, and that UCHAR_MAX be of type char. 00:44:11 C also requires that all the other types be sized multiples of the size of a char. 00:44:39 How Scandinavian do the Finnish consider themselves? 00:44:52 If it weren't for limits.h, you could have a C with an arbitrary-precision char. 00:45:03 If you want to learn something different, learn Finnish. If not, learn Swedish, but I can warn you that you'll find it rather boring. ;) 00:45:19 How similar are boring and easy? 00:45:20 (and make sizeof everything else be 1) 00:46:35 Finnish is not even Germanic... ;) 00:47:07 Quite true, that. 00:47:21 uorygl: Scandinavia is so ambiguous as a term so I can't really answer that. 00:48:17 * uorygl nods. 00:49:06 Hmm. My university has study abroad opportunities in Norway. 00:49:16 Heck, it's not even Indo-European... 00:49:22 uorygl: Swedish is surprisingly easy (even though my Swedish is extremely rusty, since I don't use it at all). 00:50:33 A somewhat-related video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk 00:56:16 How easy is Norwegian, then? 01:00:34 It's quite similar to Swedish. Swedes and Norwegians can understand each other. At least to some extent. 01:02:15 * uorygl nods. 01:03:27 Wikipedia: "Some Norwegians also have problems understanding Danish, but according to a recent scientific investigation Norwegians are better at understanding both Danish and Swedish than Danes and Swedes are at understanding Norwegian.[1] Nonetheless, Danish is widely reported to be the most incomprehensible language of the three." 01:07:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 01:16:42 Undecidable instances? 01:21:01 Makes Haskell types TC. 01:21:16 Well, that and type families. 01:22:20 bwahahaha 01:22:38 augur: Quod? 01:22:46 guess whats sitting in my living room, looming 7 feet in the air :X 01:22:59 ill give you a hint, its tall, rectangular, and black 01:23:12 and _ISNT_ a replica of the Monolith 01:23:13 I'm going to guess "the singularity" 01:24:13 ehird, i dont like your writing style. :( 01:26:29 pikhq: its not The Singularity either 01:26:36 its a BLACKBOARD :D 02:28:28 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:29:03 -!- jpc has joined. 02:55:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:55:32 ehird, i think you're totally right about the constraint system 03:06:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:19:27 but its going to need some interesting wiggling 03:31:00 the way im thinking of implementing it, constructors in the background will establish certain data-objects that act as places to have bindable properties 03:32:20 e.g. circle 50pt creates a hash, lets say, like { :type => :circle, :radius => :50pt, :size = 100pt x 100pt, :position => :v0 } 03:32:48 rather than propositional constraints like type(x,circle), radius(x,50pt), ... 03:33:24 and these hashes are just effectively collections of constraint equations 03:33:44 then on top of this there would be other constraint equations that the user can write 03:33:52 e.g. a.center = b.cente 03:34:30 which just creates a constraint in the constraints list like that 03:35:45 im thinking of doing it this way because functions like over shouldnt update the things that it overs, but rather it should make copies 03:36:43 so doing say below a b makes duplicates of a and b, and manipulates the positions, and returns a new object that those copy objects are bound to by constraints 03:51:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:51:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving"). 03:54:14 -!- coppro has joined. 04:15:46 -!- coppro has changed nick to IHATENINTENDO. 04:15:56 -!- IHATENINTENDO has changed nick to coppro. 04:45:13 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:52:47 -!- Warriphone has joined. 04:53:51 ehird 04:55:26 * Sgeo wages war on warrigal's iPhone 04:56:20 -!- soupdragon has joined. 04:59:19 soupdragon! :D 04:59:28 hey augur 05:00:34 hows your semantics coming 05:01:00 well I got a bit stuck and I still haven't figured it out 05:01:07 whereat 05:03:18 well see (28) John loves and Mary hates pizza, syntactically you can parse it quite easily given and : (X\X)/X, but the semantics don't seem to work out compositionally for that (?), whereas if you lock X down to a ground term {N,NP,PP,S} then I can't find a parse for the sentence 05:04:46 well, you can make it work compositionally 05:05:31 lift John and Mary to S/(S\NP) and compose with the verbs, producing two S/NP's, then conjoin those then apply to NP 05:05:34 pizza 05:06:08 and use the rules previously for what each of those things does 05:06:53 that /should/ work 05:07:36 so you are using AND(\x,LOVE(x,JOHN),\x.HATE(x,MARY)) $ PIZZA ? 05:08:01 well, remember, conjunction of predicates is fork over & 05:11:51 yeah, i just did it, it works fine 05:12:49 John : NP : J --T--> S/(S\NP) : \p.p(J) 05:12:57 Mary : NP : M --T--> S/(S\NP) : \p.p(M) 05:13:07 I don't understand what it means to fork over &, is it the semantics of "and" depend on the type of what it is applied to? 05:13:10 loves : (S\NP)/NP : \y.\x.loves(x,y) 05:13:17 hates : (S\NP)/NP : \y.\x.hates(x,y) 05:13:36 Mary loves : S/NP : \y.loves(J,y) 05:13:41 er, John loves* 05:13:49 Mary hates : S/NP : \y.hates(M,y) 05:14:20 John loves and Mary hates : S/NP : \y.loves(J,y) & hates(M,y) 05:14:43 John loves and Mary hates pizza : S : loves(J,p) & hates(M,p) 05:16:55 so the derivation is like (((John >T) >B loves) [something to do with and] ((Mary >T) >B hates)) > pizza ? 05:17:08 yes 05:17:47 and : ((S/NP)\(S/NP))/(S/NP) : \p.\q.\x.p(x) & q(x) 05:17:52 I spent a while trying to figure out how to get and set up right so that it's used in this caes as and : (S\S)/S 05:18:20 hmm 05:18:34 and cant be universally the same type in CCG 05:18:45 and : ((S/NP/V)\(S/NP/V))/(S/NP/V) : \p.\q.\x.\y.p(x,y) & q(x,y) ? 05:19:43 whoa what S/NP/V what 05:20:00 well (S/NP)/V 05:20:08 and what the hell does this thing do? lol 05:21:00 well okay how about and : (S\S)/S : \a.\b.a&b ? 05:21:15 yes 05:21:28 so my quesiton is, why does and have different semantics depending on the type 05:21:33 er category 05:21:48 because it has to produce logically-sensible things 05:22:00 John & Mary is a type error 05:22:07 neither John nor Mary is a truth value 05:22:14 so you cant perform conjunction on them 05:25:31 wait you can't have and : (NP\NP)/NP ? 05:25:50 well you can 05:25:54 SYNTACTICALLY 05:26:01 but what does it do SEMANTICALLY 05:26:05 thats the question 05:26:13 so not every syntactically valid sentence has semantics? 05:26:33 well, it might well have valid semantics, you just have to type-lift it correctly :) 05:26:51 ;_; 05:26:56 this is too hard for me 05:27:01 the type lifting is the only way to get the sentence to parse, right? 05:27:06 lift-compost-conjoin-apply 05:27:21 well yes 05:27:33 and notice the semantics of those respective operations 05:27:41 lifting takes x to \p.p(x) 05:28:03 compose takes \x.f(x) and \x.g(x) to \x.f(g(x)) 05:28:24 conjunction of predicates takes \x.f(x) and \x.g(x) to \x.f(x) & g(x) 05:29:37 when you do these, you just _get_ the right semantics. 05:30:48 you cant help but get 'loves(J,p) & hates(M,p)' out of this 05:30:58 yeah that makes sense 05:32:37 augur, I got my program to do this 05:32:40 Eval compute in semantics ((((John >T) >B loves) < (and > ((Mary >T) >B loves))) > pizza). 05:33:16 = AND (LOVE PIZZA MARY) (LOVE PIZZA JOHN) 05:33:32 good boy 05:33:37 >:| 05:34:30 just look how bad the semantics for AND are though... http://www.pasteit4me.com/95019 05:34:57 line 41 is basically /undefined/ 05:35:02 i dont know what this says 05:35:15 oh well I can explain it any other way 05:35:22 oh i think i see 05:35:36 yep, that looks about right! 05:35:43 oh really?? 05:35:45 nasty? you betcha. 05:35:50 and is a bitch of a word 05:39:16 now I need to write something that takes John::loves::and::Mary::loves::pizza to the parse tree 05:39:32 oh thats easy 05:39:33 er 05:39:35 ::nil 05:39:59 I thought up an algorithm in bed, but I heard there's a really efficient one too 05:40:47 i dont know how the fuck i'd parse that shit, to be honest 05:41:00 if you wanna guest post on my blog about writing a parser for it, i'd be honored 05:41:01 you said it was easy!! 05:41:05 PARSING 05:41:07 with your HEAD 05:41:10 hehee 05:41:11 not with your program :P 05:41:16 but, as for building the tree 05:41:22 which tree 05:41:30 yeah the thing is stuff like thrush makes it very tricky 05:41:49 why 05:41:50 I was thinking every tree, that way if you get 0 trees then you know it's not got any pases 05:41:54 parses* 05:42:09 the parse for this sentence in CCG is simply 05:42:28 [[[John loves] [and [Mary hates]] pizza] 05:42:32 with only binary connectives (like >, <, >B, but with thrush, when you do stop lifting? 05:42:58 normal CCG only lets you lift from base types 05:43:04 so no lifting of functor types 05:43:08 ooh that makes it easier 05:46:21 good luck turning it into a normal sort of parse tree tho 05:46:59 my idea (for the case without lifting), is that you can just walk along from left to try 05:47:37 try to join "John" with "loves" in every possible way, if you don't succeed, try to join "loves" and "and" in every possible way.. 05:47:55 once something clicks you can go back one step (kinda like bubblesort, except the list gets smaller each time) 05:48:13 what 05:48:17 I'm guessing there's a better way though.. so *looks for books* 05:48:43 ive got no idea how to build a parser for it. :D 05:49:39 Sgeo: why are you waging war on my phone? 05:53:49 soupdragon: an alternative would be to go the minimalist route 05:53:51 or thereabouts 05:56:19 which is to say, it parses like normal 05:56:39 [[John [loves PRO]] [and [Mary [hates pizza]]]] 05:57:05 where PRO is inserted when the parser fails to find the appropriate argument for the verb 05:57:43 tho personally i think the correct parse is actually [John [loves pizza]], [Mary [hates pizza]] 05:58:09 John loves, and Mary hates, pizza 05:58:29 pretty much. my believe is that you're actually not saying one sentence with a conjunction, as such 05:58:35 but rather two sentences interleaved 05:59:04 or you're reducing a sentential conjunction to an interleaved structure 05:59:46 its not without its phonological effects, unlike normal conjunction 05:59:58 John loves pizza and cake 06:00:03 John loves pizza and hates cake 06:00:09 John and Mary love pizza 06:00:10 interesting 06:00:14 John loves and hates pizza 06:00:19 all of them have normal sentence intonation 06:01:08 whereas John loves and Mary hates pizza normally has normal sentence intonation over the first two words 06:01:23 then restarts and has normal sentence intonation over the rest 06:01:35 that is, normal sentence intonation is falling 06:01:41 -!- jpc has quit ("I will do freaking anything for a new router."). 06:01:55 and this has [john loves] falling, then [mary hates pizza] restarting and falling 06:01:58 like a sawtooth 06:02:04 which looks a lot like two interleaved sentences 06:02:10 and none of the other conjunctions look that way 06:02:30 i mean, you could view that as an argument in favor of the PRO analysis too i guess 06:06:08 -!- adam_d has joined. 06:10:34 -!- jpc has joined. 06:18:21 uorygl, for no other reason then you being namedd warriphone 06:19:24 -!- jpc has quit ("I will do freaking anything for a new router."). 06:20:09 Ah. 06:20:24 It does rather resemble a command to wage war on an iPhone. 06:22:43 * uorygl seaborgiates Esperanto. 06:27:41 -!- jpc has joined. 06:28:31 ? 06:29:03 You're... Coloring... A language. 06:29:16 fuck yeah 06:29:31 pikhq: this is #esoteric 06:29:36 why should this be odd to you 06:35:56 -!- lament has joined. 06:37:13 what??? 06:37:26 hey 06:37:27 sup 06:37:29 I don't know this word seaborgiates 06:39:30 Obviously, refers to hive-mind cyborgs sailing on the water 06:39:47 no no thats seaborgium 06:40:23 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHNR_enUS321US321&q=seaborgiate&aq=f&oq=&aqi= 06:40:28 Some German thing? 06:41:25 I... see nothing in Google translate 06:41:27 Good night all 06:41:31 guys! 06:41:34 ive got a video camera! 06:41:43 i want to make scifi 06:41:46 what should i make 06:41:53 scifi gay porn 06:42:00 nh 06:42:23 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:45:17 I wish I could just download every book automatically using the internet 06:45:30 gigapedia.com 06:45:39 that site has no book 06:45:58 what 06:46:12 I never once got any results from that site 06:52:14 :| 06:52:21 do you have an account? 06:56:51 -_- 06:56:58 I didn't know there was one 06:57:04 well theres the problem! 06:57:06 augur / keroppi 06:59:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:13:40 oh man 07:57:18 I should work through the mockingbird book 07:58:52 indeed 07:59:06 I got stuck about 1/2 way last time 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:06 i should download a copy 08:00:21 tkam? 08:00:24 or what? 08:00:33 to mock a mockingbird 08:01:06 oh 08:02:21 man 08:03:17 ive been trying to wrap my head around a monosortal logic that isn't susceptible to russell's paradox 08:03:24 and i think i only just understood it 08:04:39 hmm.... 1/2, not bad 08:04:44 okay, scratch that 08:04:49 1 hit for 'monosortal' on google 08:05:06 and its barryschein! :D 08:05:28 monosortal is basically untyped 08:05:28 ish 08:05:36 oh 08:06:44 i was trying to figure out how you could have an expression like this: ∃X[∃x[x ∈ X]] 08:07:03 without saying that X is a different type that x 08:07:19 but thats an existensial qualifier; why would such a qualification be necessary? 08:08:11 well its more that 08:08:24 if your logic has things that are sets 08:08:36 then you get into the problem of russells paradox 08:09:07 introducing types ofcourse raises interesting questions too 08:09:12 but boolos presumably said look 08:09:18 forget this stuff ok 08:09:28 ah 08:09:29 you can do 1 ∈ 2 for all i care 08:09:33 :P 08:09:43 actually, no I don't get it 08:09:43 its just false 08:09:50 what's wrong with such an existensial qualifier? 08:09:56 of course there exist such x and X 08:10:36 if X is a set, then can you say something like ∃X[∀Y[Y ∈ X ↔ Y ∉ Y]]? 08:11:25 where that X = { Y : Y ∉ Y } 08:11:43 because thats all it sais 08:11:48 but this is obviously paradoxical 08:12:11 right, that's Russel's Paradox 08:12:15 right 08:12:23 the issue is _really_ that you're doing something like 08:12:43 X, a set, such that it contains the Y's where Y is a set and Y is not in Y 08:13:09 but who says that Y and X have to be sets? well, the notation, normally. ∈ and ∉ is defined on sets 08:13:11 not on numbers 08:13:19 ok, with you so far 08:13:22 so in normal logic, it makes no sense to even say 1 ∈ 2 08:13:28 thats just undefined 08:14:39 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:14:46 but what if we said, sure, ∈ is defined for anything and everything 08:14:49 pretend this is prolog 08:14:58 prolog has untyped abstract values 08:14:59 -!- Warriphone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:15:10 so you can define in(X,Y) all you want 08:16:48 in that case the paradox goes away 08:17:00 sure, you can have something X that contains all non-self-elemental sets 08:17:10 but X isnt a set. 08:17:22 so its not in itself 08:17:26 and therefore its not a paradox. 08:18:02 so you resolve the paradox by essentially getting rid of the sortedness on the values 08:18:17 sure, you might add sorts with a prolog-esque typing predication 08:18:24 set(my-set). 08:18:50 but then that just means that the thing that contains all non-self-elemental-sets is not my-set! 08:19:03 it doesnt mean its not my-collection or whatever. 08:19:27 intersting 08:19:30 just remove the sortedness of all predicates. 08:19:47 presumably. i havent read boolos' paper but im trying to understand the principles via another relevant work 08:21:02 i couldnt understand it tho for a while 08:21:18 because i kept thinking about sets and pairs and so forth as inherently structured objects 08:21:28 e.g. the pair <1,2> is just that 08:21:32 its an object with structure 08:21:59 when really what i shouldve been thinking is that the pair <1,2> is just some object, with whatever structure, the structure doesnt matter 08:22:16 but it is that object p such that first(p,1) & second(p,2) 08:22:23 ah 08:22:58 <1,2> may or may not be structured, but that doesnt mean you cant, say, call ∈ on it and say "foo" ∈ <1,2> 08:23:21 and you can say first-of({1,2,3}) 08:23:51 its just that its irrelevant to the logic 08:24:42 once i realized that, man 08:24:48 bam. it all clicked into place 08:25:03 think of it like a very low-level prolog program. 08:25:12 no lists, no datastructures, nothing 08:46:55 augur: Okay, have you ever been in #math? 08:47:13 no why 08:47:30 ok nvm then 08:47:41 what 08:47:41 why 08:47:45 did something go down in #math? 08:48:07 TRWBW was the best guy :( 08:48:17 he actually taught me stuff I didn't know ... 08:49:15 http://qdb.us/301117 08:50:22 shut up coppro TRWBW was the best 08:50:32 no. no he was not 08:50:35 who was TRWBW 08:50:35 you're acting like #math isn't a smugpit today 08:50:47 I don't know what it is 08:50:50 augur just some guy that actually knew math 08:50:58 kasadkad actually knows math. 08:50:58 coppro it's about 20x worse than before 08:51:01 augur: and was a complete asshole about it to everyone else 08:51:06 augur, sure he wasn't the only guy 08:51:14 kasadkad is a friend of mines :D 08:51:22 if it's still bad, I'll leave 08:51:36 well don't take my word for it 08:53:26 but seriously, I could not stand watching TRWBW tearing apart people who just didn't get it 08:53:39 -!- anmaster_l has joined. 08:57:47 ahah, <3 qdb 08:57:58 division of cells: o -> 0 -> 8 -> oo 08:58:28 that would make a nice ascii animation 09:30:31 -!- lament has quit. 09:31:12 -!- Pthing has joined. 09:53:44 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 10:06:42 -!- jpc has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:31:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:00:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:07:06 wow, Y2010 bugs all over the place, probably because nobody was anticipating them 11:07:18 O_o 11:07:25 the typical problem seems to be that a format was reverse-engineered, and people assumed binary when it was actually BCD, or vice versa 11:07:32 resulting in lots of things thinking it's 2016 11:07:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:09:54 hm that only makes sense if you leave out the 20 part, doesn't it. 11:10:32 I think so 11:11:08 which makes it rather similar to the original Y2K problem, doesn't it 11:11:20 yes 11:11:27 also, those bugs must all have been introduced in the last decade... 11:11:30 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:11:35 nobody cares about Y2K nowadays, though 11:11:38 because 2000's gone already 11:11:58 so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Y2K bugs became /more/ common after the big rush in 1999 to fix everything before the new year 11:12:16 hm 11:13:05 time for my regular look at updates: it seems some security bug was found and fixed in Kerberos, and there are new daylight-saving rules for Bangladesh 11:13:52 and glibc's been fixed to handle the case where no IPv6 networks are available much faster 11:23:39 Beware of Y2K38!!1 12:01:17 -!- ehird has joined. 12:03:06 jew bonanza 12:03:53 16:24:22 if the program tries to calculate a size_t to allocate or index with that causes integer overflow, resize similarly 12:04:00 sizeof is compile time though 12:05:55 17:22:46 guess whats sitting in my living room, looming 7 feet in the air :X 12:05:56 17:22:59 ill give you a hint, its tall, rectangular, and black 12:05:56 augur, put that penis away. 12:06:15 17:24:13 ehird, i dont like your writing style. :( 12:06:15 the text was basically an excuse to show the code 12:06:28 besides I wrote it when tired 12:06:36 I might just delete it, it's not a particularly good post 12:06:46 especially because of: "Now we can define show using toNum. (Actually I broke this at some point, so it just makes show fail all the time with an overlapping instances error. Sorry. Patches welcome.)" 12:07:29 btw does my blog look like it has a white background to you because it doesn't :< 12:08:12 ehird: URL? 12:08:19 http://ehird.blogspot.com/ 12:08:32 view with a graphical css browser, obvs 12:08:43 it's either grey or greyish-blue 12:08:46 ais523: posts written in Emacs with org-mode :D 12:08:48 on this screen, I can't tell which 12:08:49 it's grey 12:08:57 but yeah, your screen is not really a reliable source of colour info :P 12:09:21 that's in Firefox; shall I check in Epiphany-webkit too? 12:09:35 uh, sure; i look at it with safari so i see webkit already, but go ahead 12:09:46 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:09:47 if you have IE to hand, you could try that too... for a laugh, most likely 12:09:51 it's actually #F5F5F5, the background 12:09:52 yep, same 12:09:55 I don't have IE to hand 12:09:57 #EEE was too dark 12:10:03 I might go for #F3F3F3 or something, dunno 12:10:15 ehird: whoever says it's white probably has a gamma problem 12:10:42 If Iook closely with a white window to the side I can tell it's grey, but otherwise it's very subtle 12:10:51 Admittedly I'm on the old Macintosh gamma 12:10:58 it's almost white to me when viewed from above, but clearly grey from in front 12:11:06 1.8 instead of Television/PC 2.2 12:11:12 (2.2 was made the default in Snow Leopard) 12:11:13 but then, this screen can make even #FFFFFF look grey from the right angle 12:11:21 (I just haven't put the DVD in the machine and hit gogogo) 12:11:25 darker than red, in fact 12:11:27 (A legit copy would you believe?) 12:11:45 Hmm, PC gamma makes the grey very very slightly more obvious 12:12:01 is that because Apple are more competent at DRMing? or because you want to support them with legitimate products? 12:12:08 or because your parents would notice if you pirated it? 12:12:11 or some other reason? 12:12:22 because I didn't buy it :q 12:12:35 ah, I was wondering about that 12:12:53 i don't particularly want to support apple seeing as i'm probably on the road to migrating away from osx 12:13:10 the only drm apple does is checking you're on a mac 12:13:14 no serial keys or anything 12:14:37 now, let's see if i can write blog posts that are at least half as interesting as the average http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/ post 12:14:45 probably not! 12:15:54 18:55:32 ehird, i think you're totally right about the constraint system 12:15:54 am I ever wrong 12:16:12 19:32:20 e.g. circle 50pt creates a hash, lets say, like { :type => :circle, :radius => :50pt, :size = 100pt x 100pt, :position => :v0 } 12:16:12 19:32:48 rather than propositional constraints like type(x,circle), radius(x,50pt), ... 12:16:12 19:33:24 and these hashes are just effectively collections of constraint equations 12:16:13 that's basically the same thing 12:16:23 19:35:45 im thinking of doing it this way because functions like over shouldnt update the things that it overs, but rather it should make copies 12:16:23 ohohoh 12:16:27 there is no updating in my system 12:16:37 below :: List Drawable -> Drawable 12:16:44 each drawable has its constraints as part of the value 12:16:48 and below merges them all 12:16:50 totally functional 12:21:50 hmm 12:22:00 I know parser combinator libraries can be Applicatives instead of monads 12:22:09 but can they be anything _less_ powerful? 12:22:35 monad more powerful than applicative beacuse monad => applicative? 12:23:19 "This module describes a structure intermediate between a functor and a monad: it provides pure expressions and sequencing, but no binding." 12:25:09 Keys my keyboard lacks: Numlock, numpad /, numbad 9, numpad 4, numpad 5, left arrow, right control, right shift, \|, ]} 12:25:38 How'd you manage that 12:25:44 With great effort 12:25:49 Obviously 12:26:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:31:03 span {BCSI} = span {SK}\K 12:31:26 ehird: what is up with your keyboard? 12:31:29 also, how do you program? 12:31:48 (I'm assuming that's desktop keyboard, not iphone keyboard) 12:32:06 It's a Frankenkeyboard. And, well, \ and | are rarely used; I just finger the exposed circuit board when I want to type one of them. 12:32:12 Ditto for ]}. 12:32:37 It doesn't have any tactile response and I have to use my nail, but it beats the unholy effort of putting the keys back on (dun dun DUN). 12:32:51 And I never use the numpad. 12:32:56 (I used to, but this stopped me!) 12:32:59 (I now type better.) 12:33:38 I don't use the numpad due to spending nearly all my time on laptops 12:33:50 The numpad is bad because I have to move my hand dto use it. 12:33:55 So learning to touch-type the number row is better. 12:34:45 were you the sort of person who always left numpad on, or the sort of person who always left it off? 12:34:54 I imagine very few people actually change it, due to muscle memory 12:35:09 I always left it on; it was the only way I could type numbers quickly. 12:35:20 I also always left it on 12:35:23 I also used to type * with it, but not + or -. 12:35:26 Go figure. 12:35:29 which is strange as I rarely actually used it 12:35:33 IMO the non-numlock mode is pretty useless 12:35:43 "Results 1 - 10 of about 9" 12:35:45 all the keys are there right before the numpad... 12:35:45 haha 12:35:45 some people use it for games 12:35:48 in the middle column 12:35:51 ais523, ^ 12:35:55 hi btw 12:35:56 ehird: hmm 12:35:58 and hi 12:36:01 *AnMaster: hmm 12:36:15 that was a fun typo 12:36:24 google's "typo"? 12:36:30 no, me getting the wrong nick 12:36:32 ah 12:36:47 it's a testament to how long I've spent in here that I have both your nicks sufficiently finger-memorised that I can typo one for the other 12:37:03 you don't tab-complete? 12:37:48 ehird, or he memorised something like: "an" and "eh" 12:37:55 yep 12:38:03 tab-complete's included in the finger-memorisations 12:38:06 yeah, i guessed 12:38:08 just checking 12:38:08 although ehird's short enough to type without completing 12:38:27 ais523, nah, three letters is max I go before tab complete 12:38:28 you're ais?\t but a\t would basically almost work i guess 12:38:29 I just checked too; it is two characters at the start of the name that I've finger-memorised 12:38:37 mostly ai\t i think 12:38:43 ehird: with AnMaster here, you need two characters 12:38:44 I normally use two I think 12:38:47 if you want it to be reliable 12:38:47 ais523: nope 12:38:54 my client sorts by last use or something 12:38:57 AnMaster: test 12:38:59 AnMaster: test 12:39:00 yeah 12:39:05 ehird, tesing what? 12:39:07 testing* 12:39:10 AnMaster is always [Aa]n\t for me anyway 12:39:11 yes, and AnMaster has often spoken more recently than me 12:39:12 ah 12:39:15 I never, ever type the m 12:39:29 ais523: no, last use by _me_ 12:39:30 my client repeats my last tab-complete if I press tab with nothing in the box 12:39:32 ehird: ah 12:39:43 ais523: ah, ditto here 12:39:45 ais523: didn't realise that 12:39:48 ehird, well I tend to try to always use three letters so that the risk of issues with someone new joining and messing up for me is less. 12:39:53 ais523: now i will use it FOREVARRRRRRRRRRRRR 12:39:56 even if one letter would be enough 12:40:27 about repeating last: not for me. Mine does however do "last nick to speak first" 12:40:37 ehird: I never use it 12:40:43 and since most people are idle it helps 12:41:18 I noticed xchat treats tab if you hold it down as "tab to other GUI element" 12:41:24 which is rather strange 12:41:37 AnMaster: that's what tab does, in nearly all GUI contexts 12:41:46 but the CLI meaning of tab takes precedence over the GUI one in an IRC input box 12:42:07 ais523, yes but that it does that in the input box *instead of tab complete* if you hold tab down for about half a second 12:42:19 that makes sense 12:42:23 actually closer to a second I think 12:42:25 they're giving you the opportunity to do one or the other 12:42:45 after all, otherwise the focus would be trapped in the input box forever if you didn't have a mouse, and only knew about tab for GUI navigation with the keyboard 12:43:16 ais523, hey that was something zzo would have said 12:43:21 not something you would have said. 12:43:36 no it doesn'y 12:43:38 *doesn't 12:43:43 (of course he would have added it should be configurable too) 12:44:01 ais523 is of the School of Works on Your 50-Year-Old Amstrad With Three Pixels and One Key 12:44:16 ehird, well only the last bit "if you didn't have a mouse, and only knew about tab for GUI navigation with the keyboard" sounded zzo-ish 12:44:30 No, that's just "RAAR SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS ARE EVIL". 12:44:35 zzo wouldn't have put it at the end of the sentence 12:44:39 and the grammar would be different 12:44:50 ais523, well okay, not too far off though 12:45:00 ais523, and yes he would have said there should be an option for it 12:45:19 speaking of which, should suggest to him next time that he makes the options optional 12:45:20 zzo's amusingness is more than just options, you know. 12:45:38 zzo has an extremely logical mode of thought 12:45:44 ehird, well yes. but I was concentrating on that bit here 12:45:58 also, seems to have learnt politeness inductively, like I did, rather than understanding it innately 12:46:27 explain 12:46:37 If you want to tab to another field in ZRCB++Q4 you can hold down the TAB key. But if you don't want it to tab to another field if you hold down the TAB key, also, you could change that option or you could edit the code to remove that also. 12:46:50 Also also Also also also also buffalo. 12:47:11 (ps imagine that line being said right after he enters without explaining what ZRCB++Q4 is) 12:47:21 ais523, Not sure exactly what you mean, but if it is what I think then it is similar for me 12:47:28 possibly for many of us 12:47:36 * AnMaster waits for ais523 to clarify what he meant with inductively here 12:47:44 AnMaster: trying to work it out from examples and experiment 12:48:00 #esoteric-politeness (where - is minus) FLAME! WAR! FLAME! WAR! 12:49:01 ais523, I do not think you can have a built in definition of what is polite. For a start, the details differs between cultures 12:49:10 -!- ehird has left (?). 12:49:13 -!- ehird has joined. 12:49:13 -!- ehird has left (?). 12:49:17 -!- ehird has joined. 12:49:23 politeness is evolved 12:49:26 ais523, what is considered polite in UK might not be in (for example) South Korea 12:49:35 AnMaster: I mean, more, that most people don't have to expend concious thought on working out how politeness works in their culture 12:49:39 as part of the general pack animal stuff 12:49:58 hmm... dolphins are incredibly arrogant 12:49:59 to some extent they do share some similarities of course. But a lot of it will differ. 12:50:04 but, also, please; every programmer on the internet thinks they're autistic/Asperger's 12:50:13 haha 12:50:16 people parsed their communication, and it's nearly all them giving each other orders 12:50:21 ais523, and thanks for all the fish <-- doesn't sound too arrogant ;P 12:50:34 ehird: they're actually correct, but only because Asperger's has been generalised to the extent that it's almost meaningless 12:50:52 ais523: Yes, but learned politeness isn't really generalised that much. 12:50:58 people parsed their communication <-- when did they figure that out? 12:51:24 AnMaster: hmm... I think what they did was invented a simple language, and taught it to the dolphins 12:51:28 douglas adams created the impression of dolphins being all playful awesome intelligent creatures 12:51:32 it's kinda... bullshit. 12:51:44 and they knew what the language was because they'd invented it in the first place 12:51:56 it's science fiction ehird :P 12:52:00 yes, they're intelligent... but they're not civilised or anything, unless you call gang rape civilised 12:52:01 you're not meant to read it as true 12:52:04 soupdragon: you would be surprised how many people do 12:52:13 I am! 12:52:17 ais523, ah, well could depend on the language. Or maybe they misunderstood it. 12:52:22 they're intelligent, but they follow utterly different social rules from us 12:52:23 most people are idiots and they cannot distinguish witty fiction from fact 12:52:28 AnMaster: it had verbs, and nouns 12:52:32 and a sentence was one of each 12:52:37 ais523: are you seriously calling gang rape a social rule 12:52:53 ais523, I don't know if it is true, but I heard some claims that if you don't have numbers in your language you can't count. 12:53:05 ehird: I'm not sure how to parse your question, but it's either trivially true or trivially false depending on what you mean 12:53:09 well, one-to-one matching still works iirc 12:53:24 dolphins are pretty good at coordinating as a group, that's what the social rules are about 12:53:34 what the effect of them is is unrelated 12:53:39 ais523: well, it seems like saying "dolphins are intelligent they _just have different social rules" is bullshit 12:53:39 have you seen dolphins herding fish? 12:54:02 ais523, have you? 12:54:02 ehird: hmm, removing the comma completely changes the meaning of what I was trying to say 12:54:07 AnMaster: on the TV, yes 12:54:13 they go round in circles breathing out 12:54:23 and the fish can't escape, because they can't swim through aitr 12:54:25 *air 12:54:30 and other dolphins just eat the trapped fish 12:55:22 ais523, they do that? And why did that make me think of something as ridiculous as dophins using underwater sheepdogs XD 12:55:34 AnMaster: OK, that is ridiculous 12:55:35 dolphins* 12:55:46 the whole sheepdog principle only works because sheep are terrified of dogs 12:56:00 ais523, they could tame sharks or something XD 12:56:03 which makes sense, given the likely history of their interactions before humans came along 12:57:23 * ais523 thinks about the old metaphor of herding cats 12:57:29 I had a dream last night where I was given a Wii, which actually turned out to be multiple Wiis. Two of the three or four were the imaginary higher model Wii, which was seemingly identical apart from being much bigger. 12:57:34 I wonder how people discovered that herding cats was almost impossible. Experiment? 12:57:57 The dreaming part of my brain cannot distinguish the Wii from the Xbox 360, which _does_ have multiple versions. Woe is me. 12:58:11 wow, that previous line of mine was identical in real-world grammar and IRC grammar 12:58:22 because it starts with a proper pronoun, and ends with a question mark 12:59:16 * ais523 thinks about the old metaphor of herding cats <-- I haven't heard of that 12:59:27 maybe it's a British one 12:59:35 sounds folkloreish? 12:59:37 the idea is that herding cats is basically impossible 12:59:43 ais523, well sounds reasonable 12:59:47 well,* 12:59:51 and you compare things to herding cats if they're a similar sort of job 13:00:00 ah 13:00:02 say, coordinating thousands of children, or whatever 13:00:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmgLtg1Izw 13:00:27 ais523, has anyone tried this scientifically? *Ponders what the control group would consist of* 13:00:31 (relevant) 13:00:50 (but on YouTube, and I don't like to watch that from a work connection) 13:01:16 you've wasted more than 1:00 on irc already :p 13:01:19 my current Flash compromise has it completely banned from Firefox, but allowed unrestrictedly on Epiphany, by the way 13:01:31 ais523, logic behind that? 13:01:45 AnMaster: unlikely to trigger Flash by accident 13:02:09 because I only use Epiphany for file:// or when I'm specifically trying to look at something that requires FLash 13:02:51 any objections to me deleting http://ehird.blogspot.com/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html, due to its generally rubbish writing? 13:03:01 * AnMaster wonders *why* synergy sometimes results in ghost pastes 13:03:09 no; are you planning to redo it with better writing, by the way? 13:03:23 my brain has a sort-of objection to deleting blog posts on general principles, even if nobody is ever likely to actually read them 13:03:28 ehird, why not rewrite it? 13:03:42 I can't think of a way to write it better, really. 13:03:47 The code stands on its own. 13:03:51 Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Elliott Hird's blog does not exist. 13:03:53 >:| 13:04:02 soupdragon: I haven't deleted it yet. 13:04:05 What did you do? 13:04:10 soupdragon, remove the , at the end 13:04:13 it is not pat of the url 13:04:14 Ah. 13:04:30 (my client does that too, and sometimes , *are* part of url so meh) 13:04:46 ehird you only have one post???? 13:05:10 considering i just registered it yesterday and set up emacs w/ org-mode to write the posts...yes 13:05:34 don't delete it or you'll never post anything 13:05:45 so how the *heck* does one add items to the "Places" menu in gnome 13:05:50 just hide it by posting lots of better stuff 13:05:53 AnMaster: add to the nautilus sidebar 13:05:59 soupdragon: no, posting a "HELLO WORLD" post will kill it 13:06:06 ehird, how illogical :D 13:06:07 soupdragon: i wrote that post when sleepy, anyway 13:06:11 i just wanted to post something 13:06:15 AnMaster: how is that illogical 13:06:20 places shows a few locations + nautilus favourites 13:06:31 ehird, well why should they be related 13:06:43 ehird, for a start they don't match 13:06:50 yes, they do 13:06:57 mostly in that "removable media" is expanded 13:07:05 so thus you don't see it right away 13:07:07 you will note a separator bar 13:07:16 ehird, not in nautilus 13:07:19 in the menu yes 13:07:24 but there is no such in nautilus 13:07:32 one of the separated bits is the nautilus favourites 13:07:43 oooooh 13:07:54 genrealized composition with n=0 is application!! 13:08:02 ehird, in the "places" thing in naultius, there are *no* separator bars bar one bar at the bottom (nothing below it) 13:08:59 ehird, plus, I normally use the tree view if I use nautilus 13:09:10 wait, there's a flame war going on about /nautilus/? 13:09:20 please, it's too meh to care about one way or the other 13:09:26 ? 13:09:40 ais523: AnMaster's strategy is to use Ubuntu because he wants things to "JUST WORK", then tweak everything as much as he can, and complain when it isn't tweakable 13:09:52 I know 13:09:56 dude I want everything to work 13:10:00 ubuntu doesn't ... 13:10:07 it fucking fails every couple of months 13:10:14 I'm using Ubuntu for a similar reason, but tweaking only when necessary, apart from things like the colour scheme which are unimportant 13:10:34 e.g. I went and compiled the wireless driver myself, because it was needed to get the wireless to work 13:10:38 http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg ;; IT KEEPS GROWING OH GOD 13:10:55 ehird, that was on arch 13:10:57 not on ubuntu 13:11:09 ehird, -_- 13:11:09 you use GNOME on Arch? 13:11:16 what are you, retarded? 13:11:24 ehird, yes because kde pulls in mysql for one thing. 13:11:26 Some programs use it whether you like it or not. 13:11:29 and also kde 4 sucks IMO 13:11:47 Deewiant: that doesn't mean he has to use nautilus 13:11:52 but uh, lol @ mysql complaint 13:12:02 No, but he was originally asking about the places bar 13:12:16 you don't have to run gnome-panel either 13:12:19 e.g. I went and compiled the wireless driver myself, because it was needed to get the wireless to work <-- same. Well it worked. Just ooped at shutdown, just before syncing disks 13:12:20 only gnome users run gnome-panel 13:12:39 and we run two of them! 13:12:44 thus had to compile a backported one 13:13:09 ehird, not run it. But it is installed. mysql is not going to be on my system 13:13:29 AnMaster: you are truly a zealot of the highest order 13:13:32 ehird, and I don't use nautilus much. 13:13:47 as in, hardly ever 13:14:05 ehird, exception is probably working with gimp and similar tools 13:14:08 for image editing 13:14:14 AnMaster of the high order or zealots will grant you an audience with nautilus! 13:14:36 the inscriptions on the ancient temple of the zealots 13:14:40 FVCK MVSQL 13:14:53 ehird, where being able to see a preview on the files like PICT4382.tiff helps 13:15:10 THOV SHALT HAV NO GOD ABOV OPEN SOURC 13:15:12 :D 13:15:36 FLASH WILT BE THE ONE THAT ENDS THE EART 13:15:47 my wireless driver's in a weird state 13:15:47 ehird, anyway, see the other reason 13:15:55 it's been written and packaged, but not added to the distro yet 13:16:02 I *have* tried KDE4. and I *used* to positively hate gnome 13:16:15 but things have changed, both the project, possibly also me 13:16:36 (meh at that grammar) 13:16:44 you don't *hate* it you just complain about it at every possible opportunity 13:16:52 ehird, I said *used* to 13:17:02 as in, a year or two ago 13:17:06 dude you just complained about it 13:17:08 back when it was KDE 3 vs. gnome 13:17:25 ehird, sure I don't love gnome as such. 13:17:58 But I find it acceptable mostly. 13:18:06 quite nice even in many parts 13:19:36 ehird, and I don't see why you are flaming me for using gnome 13:19:51 arch is very nice for a desktop.. 13:20:02 just not for a laptop (where I use ubuntu) 13:21:43 frqstrbvrqtrstrqrstqrtq 13:21:52 ehird, ? 13:22:12 *frqstrbvrqtrqtrqrstqrtq 13:22:19 *ttttttttttttttttt 13:22:26 make sense -_- 13:22:38 also ais523 complains about ubuntu too 13:22:58 yes, they've made some truly stupid decisions 13:23:04 ehird, see ^ 13:23:05 is this as boring for you guys as it is for me, listening to AnMaster winge for seven years 13:23:20 ehird: oh, I've been filtering it 13:23:22 mentally 13:23:28 ehird, seven years? I'm pretty sure it wasn't in 2003 that I joined 13:23:58 ais523: can you cut off a little knob of your filter and give it to me? 13:24:00 mine's defective 13:24:01 (I wasn't on irc in 2003 even.) 13:24:18 ehird: I don't think so 13:24:28 it's kind-of hard to share mental processes between people 13:24:34 what exactly are you filtering? 13:24:42 don't tell him, this is fun 13:24:43 "fun" 13:24:49 conversations I'm not particularly interested in 13:24:57 ais523, oh well, everyone does that 13:25:08 I do the same when ehird and augur talk linguistics mostly 13:25:09 whoosh 13:25:16 i don't talk linguistics you dolt 13:25:32 ehird, okay augur does. but you does seem to take part partly 13:25:38 in the discussion 13:25:40 only when it dominates the channel, duh 13:25:43 it's called a conversation 13:25:49 of which this channel is one continuous one 13:27:32 :( 13:28:00 soupdragon: wat 13:29:11 I just hate it when you two argue!!! 13:29:28 stop him being an idiot and i'll stop arguing :|||||||||||||||||||||||\\\\\\\\\\\ 13:29:34 whoa those |s are blue green 13:29:36 trippy subpixels 13:38:54 http://www.themilliondollartagcloud.com/ 13:38:54 O_O 13:38:54 >_< 13:38:55 -_- 13:41:09 ehird, what is it? 13:41:58 I'm surprised the whole million-dollar homepage thing worked 13:42:06 who'd pay 1$ for a 1-pixel advert? 13:42:11 Idiots 13:42:15 trippy subpixels <-- I don't see that effect of course. Long live greyscale antialias. But those | are sharp. Looks like they are rendered exactly one pixel wide, and well adjusted to the screen pixels 13:42:35 Ooh, AnMaster is in "look at me my technology is SUPERIOR you care about this and want me to tell you all about it" 13:42:37 mode 13:43:12 ehird, no I'm just amused at that *you* is complaining about sub pixels :P 13:43:13 wow, the combination of your two comments, to me, has given me a terrible thought 13:43:20 subpixel adverts 13:43:22 you pay by the 1/3 of a pixel 13:43:26 heh 13:43:35 you'd need a subpixel mouse too to be able to click on them 13:43:41 I never complained about subpixels. 13:43:44 I just said it was trippy. 13:43:56 ais523: no, clicking on a pixel zooms it into three pixels 13:43:57 clearly 13:44:01 ais523, there is nothing on that site that looks vaguely like an about page... 13:44:18 oh, I didn't actually visit the site 13:44:30 juts guessed what it was about from the name, and started talking about something similar I knew about 13:44:30 which site 13:44:35 million dollar homepage or " " tag cloud 13:44:58 I wonder if there's a better name for output than print. 13:45:03 it was the homepage that I knew about 13:45:04 ehird, million dollar 13:45:09 AnMaster: ... 13:45:13 million dollar "hello world" 13:45:22 anmaster: You do realise that doesn't disambiguate one bit? 13:45:22 ehird, ? 13:45:26 hmm, should be shortened 13:45:29 BOTH are million dollar. 13:45:29 M$ "hello world" 13:45:39 ehird, http://www.themilliondollartagcloud.com/ 13:45:41 THAT 13:45:48 And then we started talking about http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/ instead 13:45:51 Of which the former is a ripoff 13:45:53 that's the only site I saw mentioned 13:45:59 You were wrong 13:46:14 ehird, as an url at least 13:52:31 -!- ehird` has joined. 13:52:39 good morning from ERC 13:53:19 the most annoying thing about Emacs is its tiling handling 13:53:38 C-x C-b q doesn't get rid of the $NAME_OF_WHAT_IT_IS it creates 13:53:42 but e.g. q on a Lisp error does 13:54:01 also, it should be hover-to-focus; I wonder if anyone's written elisp to do that? 13:54:09 -!- ehird has quit. 13:54:16 no need for colloquy if i'm futzing with emacs 13:54:23 heh 13:58:34 ehird`, it takes a bit of customization I find 13:59:55 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:00:00 once you done that it is very nice. 14:01:41 Well, it isn't a very spectacular IRC client (just good); and it isn't a good Emacs citizen. 14:01:57 For instance, the IRC buffers' names should be enclosed in asterisks, because they are temporary, not to be saved. 14:02:05 But they're not; they're just "#channel@server". 14:02:16 send in a patch! 14:02:29 ehird`: also, they aren't are they. Logging? 14:02:29 aren't there at least 3 emacs IRC clients already? 14:02:32 No. I don't have to send patches to every piece of software I criticise. 14:02:46 AnMaster: The buffer's contents itself, including ERC> prompt etc, are not saved, no. 14:02:50 ais523: think so. One is dead iirc 14:02:52 The logs are a separate entity. 14:02:57 ehird`: well true 14:02:59 The buffer is transient. 14:03:17 ehird`: but where would we be if I *agreed* with you 14:03:19 If you aren't expecting to go C-x C-s every now and then, it's transient. 14:03:36 Also, why on earth does it restrict the width of messageses to a small portion of the Emacs width? 14:03:41 That's very inconsistent with the rest of Emacs. 14:03:52 Oddly enough, it doesn't do it for messages you enter until you send them. 14:04:01 ehird`: doesn't do that here.. 14:04:40 ehird`, there are tons of settings for it 14:04:40 http://imgur.com/0QRMW.png 14:04:53 ehird`, probably some setting 14:04:56 That is no excuse for bad defaults. 14:06:03 Aww; is it just me, or can you not do C-x C-f http://imgur.com/0QRMW.png and have it automatically download and open it in Emacs? 14:06:11 Perhaps it needs tramp and I haven't loaded it properly or something. 14:07:46 -!- Pthing has joined. 14:08:26 ehird`, I don't think I tried that ever 14:08:34 Okay. 14:08:49 I'm pretty sure that is possible with tramp, but possibly the syntax is wrong, or something like that 14:08:53 and if it isn't possible there is probably some elisp code somewhere for it 14:09:09 Emacs falling short of a unified object environment makes sad panda sad. 14:09:32 ehird`, it isn't written in smalltalk ;P 14:10:10 It's not like Common Lisp was the first standardised language with an object system or anything 14:10:39 elisp != clisp though 14:10:41 And hey, it's not as if CLOS, the Common Lisp Object System, is the most advanced and subtle object system in existance today 14:10:48 Nope, no object heritage in Lisp at all. 14:11:15 (pointless to try humour, ehird` never gets jokes anyway) 14:11:19 AnMaster: Indeed, and it's not as if RMS has no idea what Common Lisp is and has ignored it for its entire existance, thus not updating Emacs based on any ideas from it. Wait, that part is actually true. 14:13:34 I realised you weree joking, it just wasn't funny. 14:13:54 Blatantly irrelevant and boringly unadorned statements followed up with an emoticon do not equate to humour. 14:15:40 ehird`: sometimes they do 14:15:46 sometimes I fly around in a spaceship :> 14:15:57 That wasn't really humour. 14:15:59 ehird`, was that supposed to be interpreted as a subjective or objective steatement? 14:16:02 statement* 14:16:26 Besides, "sometimes I fly around in a spaceship" with no context isn't so much irrelevant as a complete non-sequitur. And I'm not sure I could call it boring. 14:16:45 a non-sequitur is irrelevant by definition, isn't it? 14:16:47 ais523, that reminds me of something. I can't place it though 14:17:13 ais523: Sure, but it's a massive *exaggeration* of irrelevance. 14:17:20 Exaggeration is pretty much the basis of all humour. 14:17:34 I suppose so 14:17:52 Anyway, as I said, that was just more of an amusing nonsensicality rather than anything approximating a joke. 14:17:54 At least to me. 14:18:49 hmm... it's sort of an in-joke, minus the joke 14:18:51 so just an in- 14:18:56 An invalid. 14:19:04 It's a very valid in-. 14:19:32 ehird`, ForAll x [ Non-sequitur(x) → Irrelevant(x) ] is false given that you said that Non-sequitur("sometimes I fly around in a spaceship") and that it was *not* Irrelevant("sometimes I fly around in a spaceship") as well 14:19:44 sorry for the sloppy syntax 14:19:56 but couldn't be arsed to locate the proper unicode symbols 14:20:03 You know what's interesting? People who can't read English properly and interpret statements wrongly. 14:21:23 (A x. nonsequitur(x) -> irrelevant(x)) & (Most x. humorous(x) -> exaggerated(x)) & (A x. humorous(x) ->cancels-out-> lame(x)) 14:21:38 -_- you missed the humor *again* 14:21:44 why do I even bother 14:22:02 ais523: Just out of curiosity... did you see any humour in "ehird`, ForAll x [ Non-sequitur(x) → Irrelevant(x) ] is false 14:22:02 given that you said that Non-sequitur("sometimes I fly around in a 14:22:02 spaceship") and that it was *not* Irrelevant("sometimes I fly 14:22:02 around in a spaceship") as well"? 14:22:08 I just saw AnMaster's typical whining. 14:22:34 I saw the ForAll, got Mathematica flashbacks, and stopped reading 14:22:43 Copout. :P 14:22:58 also, you somehow managed to word-wrap your last comment, which is /very/ strange behaviour for IRC 14:23:02 ais523, hah 14:23:08 Blame ERC. 14:23:09 normally you leave that for the other person's client... 14:23:19 ehird`, never happened to me on irc 14:23:23 in erc* 14:23:30 ehird`: do you have autofill on by default? 14:23:32 ERC wraps lines by default. 14:23:32 that could explain it 14:23:36 I selected and middle-clicked to paste. 14:23:53 I know you customised ERC; but you were saying that it never happened to you, as a defense of ERC. 14:23:54 ehird`, it doesn't do that here 14:23:57 ERC's default behaviour is to do this. 14:24:02 Therefore, you are wrong. 14:24:11 ehird`, and yes I agree the default behaviour is sub-optimal 14:24:17 in many places 14:24:22 So don't try and defend ERC by saying it doesn't do that, because it does. 14:24:24 I never claimed otherwise 14:24:29 ehird`, what? 14:24:40 ehird`, I said I never hit that one 14:25:04 possibly I got rid of it thanks to changing some other related setting for a different purpose 14:25:18 like changing the fill mode of erc to better suite my tastes 14:25:32 I think that is what fixed the ~ 80 columns wrap 14:25:39 but I wasn't doing it for that reason 14:25:58 same thing probably affected word wrapping 14:26:03 without me noticing that 14:26:14 ehird`, so what are you going on about 14:26:19 #;> (values) 14:26:19 14:26:19 #;> (if #f #f) 14:26:19 #;> 14:26:22 (space line is actually blank). Interesting; SISC's unspecific value differs from returning no values. They both output "nothing", but (values) causes an extra newline. Strange. 14:26:35 Wonder if there's any reason for that; Java heritage, perhaps? 14:26:58 ehird`, SISC ? hm? 14:29:19 ais523, those mathematical flashbacks. Painful are they? 14:29:29 AnMaster: *Mathematica 14:29:30 "matematical flashbacks" 14:29:31 Fail 14:29:34 there's quite a difference in the one letter 14:29:34 *mathematical 14:29:34 ais523, typo 14:29:38 and yes 14:29:38 (Double fail) 14:29:43 yes I know it is a difference 14:29:47 ehird`: Muphry's Law? 14:29:51 so I slipped on l somehow 14:29:57 ais523: *Murphy's Lwa 14:30:03 (^^ metametajoke) 14:30:53 ais523, anyway what I meant and thought I typed was mathematica 14:37:41 http://www.acooke.org/ is now neither lowercase nor ridiculously crowded^Wpacked :( 14:37:53 WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU! you're never too old to write a malbolge hello world again! 14:38:25 at least it has a spot on the small page, good to know he's still proud of his only real achievement 14:53:58 ehird`, story behind that? 14:55:04 What? 14:55:50 ehird`, it used to be lowercase? And what do you mean "only real achievement" 14:56:06 He used to type in all-lowercase; see f.e. his Malbolge hello world page. 14:56:26 ah 15:19:48 ehird`, when was that hello world ga search? 15:20:07 I think 2000-2003. 15:20:37 "500mhz nt box with 96mb memory" hm. Could fit if it was an old one I guess 15:20:43 "it took a few hours to generate the program on a 500mhz nt box with 96mb memory" 15:20:44 it took a few hours to generate the program on a 500mhz nt box with 96mb memory 15:20:46 erm 15:20:49 i used clisp because it came with suse linux. it's a pretty solid implementation, but not as fast as some others (it's an exception to what i said above - it only compiles to byte code, like java). when it became clear i needed more memory than my own laptop (32mb) i "borrowed" my work's nt machine (96mb) and switched to corman lisp because it was faster and clisp seemed to be having a problem with large data sets. corman lisp doesn't 15:20:50 implement quite as much of the standard as clisp (full standard implementations do exist, but the missing bits aren't used much anyway) and is win32 only (it includes a very nice interface to win32 dlls). if you're thinking of starting with lisp, either would be a good start - see www.lisp.org for more details (if you're on win32 and would like to access c libraries or like a nice gui (ide), i'd recommend corman lisp, but the gui isn't 15:20:50 free). 15:20:52 15:20:56 15:21:08 "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> 15:21:08 15:21:11 15:21:14 15:21:15 ehird`, ? 15:21:17 15:21:17 what? 15:21:20 XHTML, so post-1999. 15:21:23 XHTML wasn't popular in 2000, I don't think, so let's say 2001+. 15:21:24 well right 15:21:35 And programmerly types tend to hold on to older hardware. 15:21:39 ehird`, or the page has been reformatted since them 15:21:40 Anyway, SuSE Linux... 15:21:44 to fit a new web site system 15:21:46 or whatever 15:21:51 Not OpenSuSE, I guess 15:21:54 AnMaster: No. 15:21:59 The page has never changed design afaik 15:21:59 okay 15:22:26 ehird`, I have a vague memory reading it before, don't remember the green headers 15:22:31 * AnMaster goes to wayback 15:23:07 meh it only has it from 2008 onwards 15:23:35 Ah, wait 15:23:37 I know how to work it out 15:23:47 Malbolge was so difficult to understand when it arrived that it took two years for the first Malbolge program to appear. The program was not even written by a human being: it was generated by a beam search algorithm designed by Andrew Cooke and implemented in Lisp. 15:23:48 15:23:50 Malbolge was 1998 15:23:52 So 2000 15:24:03 right 15:24:05 Maybe 2001, if the year just rolled over 15:24:22 (i.e. malbolge dec 1998, acooke jan 2001) 15:24:40 -!- adam_d has joined. 15:27:20 Corman Lisp on Win32 in 2000. Why do I miss out on all the fun? :P 15:31:44 Is that very different from Corman Lisp on Win32 in 2010 15:32:10 You Windowsers today and your sevens and your Arrow Snapeek. 15:32:26 Uphill, in the snow, both ways, with 2000 Professional, and Classic chrome. 15:32:34 And Netscape. 15:32:53 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 15:32:58 boom 15:36:47 what's wrong with (merge x y >>= \m -> parse (m::zs)) ++ (parse (y::zs) >>= \z -> merge x z) 15:36:54 er if you change the :: into : 15:36:58 Define "wrong". 15:37:11 Also merge::?,parse::?. 15:39:17 :( 15:39:19 it doesn't work 15:39:34 Doesn't typecheck? 15:39:36 Bottoms out? 15:39:39 Returns incorrect results? 15:39:40 ehird`, oh you had it good didn't you? 15:39:45 incorrect results 15:39:48 Uphill both ways only!? 15:39:56 soupdragon: Howso? What are the types of merge and parse? 15:40:29 merge :: Derivation -> Derivation -> list Derivation 15:40:43 What language is this? What is -- ok, I give up 15:40:43 parse :: list Derivation -> list Derivation 15:42:46 ehird`, in Windows ME it was uphill *all three ways* 15:43:01 Bah! Windows ME could run Winhugs, I'm sure. 15:43:09 A veritable playground of programmification. 15:43:37 ehird`, winhugs? 15:43:41 oh I figured it out 15:43:43 Winhugs. 15:43:49 oh right 15:43:53 haskell hugs 15:44:10 ehird`, couldn't windows 2000 professional do that too? 15:44:16 Apparently WinHugs even runs on '95. 15:44:24 AnMaster: Yes, but I was rebutting your HIDEOUS LIES that Windows Me was worse! 15:44:35 I need to use dynamic programming oh god 15:44:38 Every Windows 95 or above can run Lisp and Haskell and therefore they are good. :P: 15:44:38 If something runs on ME it probably runs on 95 and 98 15:44:41 *:P 15:44:42 ehird`, You weren't woken up every day with a bluescreen 15:44:51 Deewiant: Me -> 98, yes, but 98 !-> 95. 15:45:02 98 added quite a few more APIs and also intrinsically tied IE to the system. 15:45:11 ehird`, and: I used windows 2.something once 15:45:12 Yes, but most things don't use them 15:45:15 only once 15:45:17 but still 15:45:28 Deewiant: I played with Windows 95 for a few days and quite a lot of stuff works on 98 but not 95. 15:45:31 Most things that would run on ME, that is 15:45:31 it was uphill more than all three ways. Even the fourth way was uphill! 15:45:43 soupdragon: I wonder if language support for dynamic programming is a good idea. 15:46:00 you mean like APL? 15:46:05 Dunno. 15:46:07 ehird`, get haskell to run on linux 1.0 (linux 0.0.1 is just not worth trying I fear) 15:46:19 Hugs is pretty portable. 15:46:24 this algorithm is so complex I can't do it 15:46:48 and the efficent ones in the literature are even harder 15:47:10 ehird`, okay then, if you get a linux 0.0.1 system to boot in some emulator (probably someone has already done this) then I challenge you to get linux running on it 15:47:12 err 15:47:13 hugs* 15:47:20 AnMaster: no. 15:47:20 messy typo that 15:47:28 ehird`, no? 15:47:52 soupdragon, dynamic programming for what? 15:48:19 Windows Me: Old school! Play around with the system! THE WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER Windows 2000: More... 2000! Which will win the battle for the retro platform to run Lisp and Haskell on??????????????? 15:48:35 Honorary contender: 98. Like Me, but less crashy. LAME 15:51:56 ehird`, there is Windows 95 too. You forgot it in there. 15:52:16 ehird`, and the challenger of the week: Windows NT 3.1! 15:52:33 Dishonorary contender: 95. Reasonable UI, well-performing, doesn't crash much, doesn't have IE fudged in. 15:52:37 Who would ever want that? 15:52:51 XD 15:53:12 ehird`, 2000 doesn't crash either. And isn't really old school 15:53:40 AnMaster, parsing 15:53:44 Yes, it's a shame it isn't more old school; it would have a better standing in the retro platform to run Lisp and Haskell on contest. 15:53:50 soupdragon, parsing what? 15:53:51 On the other hand, IT IS MORE 2000 15:53:55 natural language 15:54:17 ehird`, windows NT 3.1 still beats it 15:54:26 3.1 is useless and futzy! 15:54:27 it can run of fcking alpha. 15:54:33 wolfram alpha 15:54:33 pretty sure 2000 couldn't 15:54:41 soupdragon, -_- 15:54:41 So can NT 4, but both only in server form. 15:54:42 No UI. 15:54:45 :) 15:55:02 ehird`, and MIPS 15:55:15 Your mother was a mips. 15:56:11 ehird`, as for windows nt server having no UI? really? 15:56:21 Not on non-x86, duh. 15:56:31 ehird`, so it had on x86? I see 15:56:40 Yes... Windows NT is a GUI system... 15:57:30 ehird`, what is the source for nt 4 having no GUI on alpha? 15:57:37 since I can't find it googling 15:57:52 If you want a source find one yourself. 15:58:01 I don't know of a source. 16:01:22 ehird`, I conclude that without further evidence (of which I can't find any) this is probably a myth 16:01:31 You are wrong. 16:02:46 Hmm, well it seems some version could 16:02:50 http://www.alphant.com/ant_faq.shtml 16:02:53 Perhaps MIPS had no GUI 16:03:02 or perhaps 4 dropped the gui, with its switching to the 95 gui 16:03:15 Or I was misleadd 16:03:17 *mislead 16:03:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 16:04:23 ehird`, well I didn't suggest you lied intentionally 16:04:59 "Latest blog article: Mininova limits its activities to Content Distribution service" 16:04:59 *BAM!* That was the sound of Mininova finally being bludgeoned to death. 16:06:56 ehird`, which of these sounds most idiomatic: "No other was affected." or "No other were affected." 16:07:07 Specify noun. 16:07:08 where you replace noun/nouns with some other word 16:07:14 ehird`, "table"/"tables" here 16:07:25 latter, I guess 16:07:52 so it depends on the noun. And I suppose there is no simple set of rules for it :/ 16:08:02 No, I didn't say that. 16:08:08 oh 16:08:30 sorry but what did you mean then? 16:09:21 I just couldn't get a feel of the sentence without seeing it in full. 16:10:45 AnMaster: "tables" if there's more than one other table that could be affected 16:11:03 The former doesn't make senes if there's just one. 16:11:17 ehird`: it does if there's just one more, I think 16:11:28 although you could be clearer and say "The other table was not affected" 16:11:37 ais523, there could be due to cascade I guess. hm 16:11:59 well yeah there could have been 16:12:05 they're both right, and I don't think people are consistent as to which they use 16:12:45 okay 16:15:42 from an old MS security bullentin: "RPC over TCP is not intended to be used in hostile environments such as the internet. More robust protocols such as RPC over HTTP are provided for hostile environments." 16:15:54 anyone else who can spot the error? 16:16:06 It's not an error. 16:16:12 Obviously it means directly over TCP. 16:16:20 ehird`, it doesn't say so 16:17:46 It's obvious. 16:18:16 ehird`, true. But it is still slightly funny 16:18:30 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:30:38 Imhotep 16:34:44 So, #esoteric is eight years old this year. 16:34:50 Well; in December, I think. 16:35:53 wow, it's that young? 16:36:20 Late 2002. 16:36:26 That's not really young. 16:36:54 I assumed it would be older than I was 16:37:21 When were you born again? 16:37:36 1987 16:37:49 IRC was created in 1988... 16:38:04 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:38:17 And linpeople started in 1995, becoming OPN in 1998 and Freenode in 2002. 16:38:35 Seriously; you thought #esoteric was created in 1987 or earlier...? 16:38:41 wow, /IRC/ is that young? 16:38:46 O_O 16:38:47 I sort-of assume it's been around forever 16:38:49 You're fucking crazy. 16:38:59 Usenet has been, after all 16:39:15 ehird`: I'm the sort of person who could plausibly believe that IRC is older than the Web 16:39:15 Usenet was conceived in 1979. 16:39:22 It was publicly established in 1980. 16:39:25 ais523: it is 16:40:02 By Christmas 1990, Berners-Lee had built all the tools necessary for a working Web: the HyperText Transfer Protocol (HTTP) 0.9, the HyperText Markup Language (HTML), the first Web browser (named WorldWideWeb, which was also a Web editor), the first HTTP server software (later known as CERN httpd), the first web server (http://info.cern.ch), and the first Web pages that described the project itself 16:40:20 By Christmas 1990, Berners-Lee had built all the tools necessary for a working Web: the HyperText Transfer Protocol (HTTP) 0.9, the HyperText Markup Language (HTML), the first Web browser (named WorldWideWeb, which was also a Web editor), the first HTTP server software (later known as CERN httpd), the first web server (http://info.cern.ch), and the first Web pages that described the project itself 16:40:22 Erm 16:40:25 In 1984 Berners-Lee returned to CERN, and considered its problems of information presentation: physicists from around the world needed to share data, and with no common machines and no common presentation software. He wrote a proposal in March 1989 for "a large hypertext database with typed links", but it generated little interest. His boss, Mike Sendall, encouraged Berners-Lee to begin implementing his system on a newly acquired NeXT 16:40:25 workstation. He considered several names, including Information Mesh, The Information Mine (turned down as it abbreviates to TIM, the WWW's creator's name) or Mine of Information (turned down because it abbreviates to MOI which is "Me" in French), but settled on World Wide Web[1]. 16:40:26 16:40:32 In 1984 Berners-Lee returned to CERN, and considered its problems of information presentation: physicists from around the world needed to share data, and with no common machines and no common presentation software. He wrote a proposal in March 1989 for "a large hypertext database with typed links", but it generated little interest. His boss, Mike Sendall, encouraged Berners-Lee to begin implementing his system on a newly acquired NeXT 16:40:33 workstation. He considered several names, including Information Mesh, The Information Mine (turned down as it abbreviates to TIM, the WWW's creator's name) or Mine of Information (turned down because it abbreviates to MOI which is "Me" in French), but settled on World Wide Web[1]. 16:40:36 IRC itself was created in 1988, I thought 16:40:37 16:40:39 ... 16:40:43 ffff 16:40:46 On August 6, 1991, Berners-Lee posted a short summary of the World Wide Web project on the alt.hypertext newsgroup. This date also marked the debut of the Web as a publicly available service on the Internet. 16:40:49 16:40:52 Yes 16:40:53 I said that 16:41:20 so you did 16:41:35 One day I'm going to make this thing automatically fetch logs. 16:42:34 Here's an interesting factoid: #haskell was founded by a ~15 year old. 16:42:57 ...being John Resig, creator of jQuery. 16:43:11 (15 when it was created, that is.) 16:44:56 Could have been younger, actually: all the wiki says is "late 90s". 16:44:58 15 is for 1999 16:48:28 ais523: is there an Emacs keycombo for kill-buffer-and-detile? 16:48:43 i.e. C-x k C-x 0 16:48:47 not by default, I think 16:48:52 *C-x k RET C-x 0 16:48:54 but that sort of thing is a trivial .emacsrc addition 16:49:07 *.emacs 16:49:10 err, yes 16:49:22 you can tell I've been writing too many roguelike bots recently 16:49:24 or possibly not 16:49:30 wat 16:49:40 woah 16:49:47 Whoa. 16:49:50 16:49:57 if you've spent hours poking around .nethackrc and .crawlrc then you get used to that naming convention 16:50:28 hmm... there isn't a single platform where Emacs even remotely follows conventions 16:50:34 not even old-style unix 16:50:45 all the platforms it fit into, if there ever were any, are now long dead 16:52:59 Its conventions are older than the platforms it runs on. 16:53:02 :P 16:53:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#History microsoft used to be part of tiny usenet :-D 16:53:26 on a UUCP link 16:53:51 ah, perhaps not the discussion groups, reading the text 16:53:52 but still! 16:53:55 such a small network 16:55:51 Hey guys. 16:55:59 It's 28 days to go until 6000 September 1993 16:56:32 ooh 16:56:37 a worrying milestone 16:57:03 Let's take over the internet and purge it of the infection for 6001. 16:57:07 see, the Eternal September is ages ago, and I assumed it was a relatively recent thing compared to the length of time the Internet had been around 16:57:24 well, the various major protocols of it 16:57:33 Then it will be known: That the September of 1993, did then go on for over 16 years, 16:57:57 Finally coming to rest, and passing on the torch to February 2010, after 6000 days. 16:59:42 That would be nice. 17:02:41 Window managers that don't let me give keyboard input to one window while still keeping another on top irritate me. 17:03:04 6000 September 1993??? 17:03:15 soupdragon: You know not of what it is? 17:03:19 no I have no clue 17:03:22 Then go back to the sewers! 17:03:25 I feel like such a child 17:03:33 soupdragon: hey i'm kidding 17:03:45 i was BORN two years after the eternal september started 17:03:52 i'm, like, 3 minutes old 17:04:05 ok technically one year and eleven months, give or take some days 17:04:09 ohh 17:04:20 September 6000th 17:04:49 It'll be the six thousandth of September, nineteen ninety three. 17:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:05:44 sdate is a fun program, all sorts of programs break in all sorts of fun ways when given days of the month above 31 17:46:19 -!- jpc has joined. 18:28:46 Locusts; swarms thereof. 18:30:52 Pianos; sailing through the sky. 18:34:07 Ontology; disputing technological oligarchies. 18:39:01 Pheromones; logic through invisibility. 18:44:05 Jackdaws; unto which they must die. 18:47:59 Silver; the end. 18:48:07 Gold; THE BEGINNING 18:48:32 Irony; lost on the world. 18:48:45 Poppycock; how absurd. 18:49:15 Heroin; saving the planet from ambushes. 18:49:29 Talisman; opening your direct-interface specimen. 18:49:46 Tasmanian; a deal with the devil. 18:49:54 Ravens; perching on a rainbow. 18:50:40 Rendering; a ray of sunshine. 18:50:40 Fractal; an image (one type of image is, quoting ehird, a fractal: "Fractal; an image conterningitsulf... STACK OVERFLOW 18:50:49 (I even captured the only-similar raspect!) 18:51:35 Imperfection; notably not able. 18:55:17 Tracksuits; what do they bring to the table? 18:55:38 Food; but that is not suitable. 18:56:06 wow, you two have come up with a tremendously deep pun between you there 18:56:49 Depths; out of them. 18:57:17 Tachyons; a bout of them. 18:57:53 Klein bottles; faster on the inside. 18:58:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:58:24 Tapestry; put it on the bin slide. 18:59:02 Slides; tape them to your ruler. 18:59:30 "sorry for the IM but im looking for your store were you sell the slave pet's bed" 19:00:11 Rhyming; we've suddenly started this, is this crueler? 19:00:35 Disturb; do not move ahead. 19:01:53 Suddenly; I find myself rather dead. 19:02:07 Emergency; come out and have a look! 19:02:19 Fuck; ...you, I'd rather stay and read a book. 19:02:30 Negative; reading a ... damn. 19:02:45 Green; the colour of the eggs and ham. 19:03:07 Splat; the sound of eggs falling. 19:03:57 BRB; I hear my mom calling. 19:04:53 Reason; not bought for silver. 19:05:16 19:05:40 Listen; I know you told my friend Ilver. 19:06:19 Ilver; I 'ardly know her. 19:06:58 Kielder; say orange, it'd be radder. 19:07:03 Rhyme; the lack of a reason. 19:07:13 Thyme; museli and treason. 19:07:55 Chilli; way up the ladder. 19:08:46 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:11:42 KAZAM; BAK OK TIK! 19:13:09 Magic; does not stick. 19:15:35 Bring; the thin of thick. 19:16:21 Verb; the adjective of abjective. 19:16:21 ais523 or ehird`: In English text do you write "the enter key" or "the Enter key"? 19:16:49 Enter the key; third act. 19:16:52 anmaster_l: the second if I'm being formal 19:16:52 .... 19:17:07 ais523, thanks, formal indeed here 19:17:08 I'd quite possibly use the first on IRC, though 19:17:14 well yes 19:17:39 ais523, "the arrow keys" would be like that in formal text though? 19:17:46 *the Return key 19:17:50 Unless you mean the numberpad one. 19:17:59 "press Return", though, not "press the Return key". 19:18:05 ehird`: the Return key on this keyboard has ENTER written on it 19:18:12 ais523: your keyboard is dumb. 19:18:19 I'm not entirely sure what effect that has on your theory, which I also believe to be correct 19:18:29 ais523, same, and for unknown reason my key repeat died -_- 19:18:31 * anmaster_l prods 19:18:33 ok, it also has ` to the left of the spacebar 19:18:44 which is also a weird place to put a key 19:18:51 oh synergy still running. 19:18:53 for all I know, they put numpad enter the place most people put return 19:18:58 and focused in the wrong place 19:19:09 * ehird` fiddles with Frink to get a nice OS X .app for it 19:19:36 ais523, so it is the return key then? 19:19:48 the Return key 19:19:59 and as ehird says, it would just be "press Return" if you wanted someone to press it 19:20:10 but "the Return key" if you were trying to describe, say, where it was or what colour it was 19:20:12 hm 19:20:29 I now ended up with "press Return to return to the main menu" 19:20:37 which looks rather out of place in a formal text 19:20:53 "press Return to exit to the main menu" 19:21:03 "to return to the main menu, press Return" 19:21:17 good thing we don't have an exit key ;P 19:21:35 the latter works better I think 19:21:36 thanks 19:22:50 e beardseconds -> pi nanometers 19:22:50 4.3262798971613254367 19:22:52 --Frink 19:23:13 Yep, the pinanometers. Who would use any other unit of llength apart from the beardsecond? 19:24:58 what do you use for volume? parsec-barns? 19:25:18 parsec barn 19:25:18 3.0856775813057289536e-12 m^3 (volume) 19:25:19 Why not. 19:25:52 hmm, that's rather small, lightyear-barns might work better 19:26:40 (100 lightyear) barn 19:26:40 5912956545363/62500000000000000000000 (exactly 9.4607304725808e-11) m^3 (volume) 19:27:01 oh wow 19:27:05 it seems like "light century" works 19:27:14 oh, no 19:27:16 anyway 19:27:22 * ehird` promptly does lightcentury := 100 lightyears 19:27:43 http://futureboy.us/frinkdata/units.txt ;; take a look at how many units frink comes with... 19:28:19 pianometers 19:29:35 (four score + seven) days 19:29:35 7516800 s (time) 19:32:38 The beardsecond, you say? 19:43:50 Yes, I do say. 19:44:19 hertz per dioptre! 19:54:28 in English, what are the rules for capital letters in headings? 19:54:46 for a lab report or such 19:54:49 all words capital except very common ones 19:55:01 Plaster them Everywhere Except on Pronouns 19:55:02 "the" "and" "a" are likely to not need initial capital letters 19:55:07 oerjan, :D 19:55:16 "of" also takes a lowercase 19:55:17 ais523, "and" "or"? 19:55:22 lowercase 19:55:32 basically, pretty much any word that's interesting is initcaps 19:55:50 words needed just for grammatical correctness, or things like "and" and "or" that structure the sentence, are lowercase 19:55:52 anmaster_l: title case is shit 19:55:55 and you don't put a full stop at the end 19:55:56 Use sentence case. 19:55:58 ehird`, it is hard to remember 19:56:03 It just looks ugly 19:56:05 Student Dies of boredom 19:56:21 Like You're Some Sort of Shit-Peddler in the 1800s Marketing Your Shit 19:56:33 Boy-Wonder Coca-Cola Drinker! 19:56:37 ehird`: Except that that had easy-to-remember rules. 19:56:38 "The Astoundment of a Nation" 19:56:57 ais523, what about "The use of the word "and" in middle English" 19:57:00 Namely, one would only capitalise Nouns, for such was the Rule of the Age. 19:57:01 ;) 19:57:02 how would you caps that title 19:57:02 :P 19:57:14 anmaster_l: The Use of the Word "And" in Middle English 19:57:17 (remove the outer quotes first) 19:57:17 The Use of the Word "And" in Middle English 19:57:20 Alternatively: 19:57:21 hm 19:57:23 right 19:57:25 The use of the word "and" in Middle English 19:57:32 Oh snap, I just injected some sanity 19:57:52 journal article titles tend to be sentence-case 19:57:57 some newer book titles, too 19:58:05 And and Or or Then, then. 19:58:06 ais523, and what about lab reports? 19:58:10 Redrawerredrawers. 19:58:19 (Real actual wordism.) 19:58:22 anmaster_l: also sentence case, I expect 19:58:30 ehird`: redrum 19:58:39 oerjan, I have to say that you forgot that you could insert a "that that" there. 19:58:44 ais523, hm 19:58:49 Redrawerredrawers is a word, which delights me. I wish redlorryellowlorry was too. 19:58:57 ais523, in headings I meant 19:59:11 ehird`: two ys? 19:59:22 Also, the rules are a *tiny* bit hard, because they vary from style guide to style guide (re: title case) 19:59:35 forgo that that that that forgot 19:59:45 ais523: "redrawers", it ends with. 19:59:52 That could be re-drawers, but I read it as red drawers. 19:59:55 Red drawer red drawers. 20:00:20 ehird`, I think he meant "red lorry yellow" 20:00:23 It is also the real longest word you can type with just one hand with QWERTY. 20:00:28 as the place with the two ys 20:00:38 that was almost certainly coined for logologists to enjoy 20:01:01 logologists, lol 20:01:20 FD 10 20:01:22 RT 90 20:01:26 also, I can type anything, such as this comment, with one hand, if I could type it with two; it just takes longer 20:01:34 Redrawerredrawers <-- how does it parse: "re-drawer re-drawers"? Or "red drawers re-drawers"? 20:01:42 or one of the two remaining ways 20:01:44 barring, possibly, things that need stupid modifier-key combinations 20:02:05 re-drawer red-drawers or re-drawer re-drawers 20:02:05 red rawer redrawers 20:02:34 jm 20:02:38 ais523: oh, shut up 20:02:47 anmaster_l: it's an entirely separate word 20:02:48 hm* 20:02:49 it doesn't parse any way 20:02:53 forgot about a d there 20:02:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 20:02:57 ehird`, well what does it *mean* 20:03:12 Oh, wait. 20:03:19 It might be a wordlist error for reddrawer\nreddrawers 20:03:24 hehe 20:03:36 *redrawer 20:03:47 % grep '^redrawer' /usr/share/dict/words 20:03:47 redrawer 20:03:47 redrawerredrawers 20:03:47 redrawers 20:03:49 redwarfs 20:03:53 --Slashdot 20:03:56 Yep, a bug 20:04:00 devertebrated it is, then 20:04:09 Or tesseradecade 20:04:15 Or aftercataract 20:04:50 ehird`, not listed like that in mine 20:04:54 about the whole "'typewriter' on the top row" thing, I wonder if that's coincidence or deliberate? 20:04:56 what system had the bug 20:05:12 ais523, what is that "thing"? 20:05:20 http://icon.shef.ac.uk/Moby/ 20:05:25 Moby wordlist has the bug, so probably a copy of it 20:05:52 anmaster_l: "typewriter" can be typed using just the top row of letters on a QWERTY keyboard 20:06:08 ehird you're getting a lot of data right now, why? 20:06:13 ais523, btw how do you write acronyms in plural? 20:06:23 umm, "acronyms"? 20:06:27 ais523, example here is (yes I dislike this module -_-): DBMS 20:06:35 for "database management system" 20:06:40 DBMSs 20:06:42 OSs 20:06:44 RDBMSs 20:06:46 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:06:47 anmaster_l: the formal grammar books say to use apostrophe-s, as in DBMS's, but nobody does that 20:06:48 TLAs 20:06:55 lowercase s after capital letters is used by everyone in practice 20:06:58 ais523, ah when is the :s for? 20:07:01 ais523: that aggravates me 20:07:08 "80's", especially, makes me rage 20:07:14 possibly because 's for plurals is obviously wrong, despite being recommended in this particular case 20:07:16 we don't need more fucking exceptions in the fucking language! 20:07:30 aggravates, that's another 20:07:32 english style guides are bullshit anyway 20:07:41 serving only idiots in ivory towers who think they define the language 20:07:53 ehird`: Depends on the style guide, actually. 20:08:10 Some of the extant style guides are "The style that will be used for this particular publication". 20:08:22 yes but that's just controlfreakism 20:08:31 (those are at least vaguely reasonable in concept) 20:08:33 still, grocers' apostrophe's are just annoying and typoy and bad grammar 20:08:43 it's even worse when a grammar book requires them in certain cases! 20:09:15 That's painful. 20:09:19 (the grammar books also advise pluralising individual letters with 's, as in "there are six e's in this sentence" 20:09:22 ) 20:09:30 (that's more excusable, because there's no obvious right way to do that) 20:09:40 There are six Es in this sentence. 20:09:47 There are six "e"s in this sentence. 20:09:51 There are six 'e's in this sentence. 20:09:56 ok, I like your second example 20:10:01 probably better than the other two 20:10:14 I dunno, the third seems nicer; double quotes seem too bulky for such a simple quotation. 20:10:24 the 's looks out of place there 20:10:27 What we need is Joy/Factor-style quotaations in English, obviously. 20:10:29 maybe it would work better with smart quotes 20:10:32 There are six [e]s in this sentence. 20:10:41 There are six «e»s in this sentence 20:10:54 He said that [she said that [I must die]]. 20:10:58 still, grocers' apostrophe's are just annoying and typoy and bad grammar <-- why is it called that 20:11:33 anmaster_l: because allegedly, grocers used to use them a lot 20:11:34 There are six 「e」s in this sentence. 20:11:38 Japanese attack! 20:11:58 even nowadays, you can walk past a greengrocer's stall and see them advertising carrot's and potatoe's, sometimes 20:12:13 * ehird` wonders how good WebNet's definitions are 20:12:13 but I think they do it deliberately nowadays because people expect it, not because they think it's right 20:12:32 ehird`: Ah, Japanese punctuation. 20:12:33 They have much. 20:13:05 if you are suggesting usage of "'s" should be consistent then may I recommend dropping "it's" 20:13:11 and making "its" into "it's" 20:13:26 just for consistency you understand 20:13:48 you would have to write out "it is" I guess, but that is a small price to pay for consistency 20:13:59 its/it's is perfectly consistent. 20:14:10 If you disagree, you do not understand their expansions (well, only the latter has an expansion). 20:14:29 it's -> it is. its -> his/her for objects. 20:14:40 "it's" is consistent, you'd expect "its" to also be spelt "it's" though 20:14:50 Why? 20:14:50 if you were trying to make it consistent with nouns rather than pronouns 20:14:56 I don't say "she's wardrobe". 20:15:00 I say "her wardrobe". 20:15:07 yep, because pronouns don't follow rules at all 20:15:33 personally, I consider pronouns to be inconsistent-but-there's-nothing-you-can-do-about-it 20:15:45 They're not inconsistent -- they're arbitrary. 20:15:48 ais523, yes old-"it's" is consistent with "don't" and so on 20:15:57 but making both the same would cause confusion 20:16:15 possessive[she] = her 20:16:27 possessive[him] = his 20:16:32 possessive[it] = its 20:16:33 ehird`, I -> my too 20:16:38 Yes. 20:16:42 But it's not inconsistent at all. 20:16:47 Lewis Carrol used to punctuate "shan't" as "sha'n't" 20:17:13 ehird`, well it would be _more_ consistent if you did the same transformation on all of them 20:17:25 Arbitrary is not inconsistent. 20:17:32 And there is certainly no inconsistency with its/it's. 20:17:42 ehird`, well okay, there isn't any rule for it to be consistent with. Since all of them are different 20:19:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:19:30 ehird`, but it is inconsistent with the nouns 20:19:41 "the cat's ball of yarn" "its ball of yarn" 20:20:00 err 20:20:03 yeah 20:20:28 and then "ehird's pet" but "your pet" and you would say "my pet" 20:20:36 no consistency there 20:20:54 no order in the chaos that is the English language :/ 20:20:55 oh well 20:22:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:23:15 hrrm why are the usb ports so close to each other on a laptop. There are three next to each other. And they are turned vertically 20:23:38 to be able to get hold of the middle one to pull it out without pulling out the outer ones is almost impossible 20:23:47 ais523, ^ 20:24:11 anmaster_l: why would you expect me to know? 20:24:27 ais523, why wouldn't you? 20:24:53 ehird`: help 20:25:18 but if you don't: cya, will be back in an hour or so 20:27:54 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:32:39 ais523: back 20:32:43 ais523: yow, that was a bad one 20:32:55 hmm... anmaster_l is like the opposite of a solipsist 20:32:58 sort of 20:33:03 everyone knows everything except him 20:33:44 it's a good thing everyone else in the office has gone home, I'm laughing so loud at seeing your reaction... 20:33:59 which is a perfectly appropriate one, of course 20:34:26 -!- ehird has joined. 20:34:30 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:36:01 XD 20:55:59 ehird`, you claim you know everything? Whoa! Is the Riemann hypothesis true? 20:56:16 ais523: ^ a whoosh of epic proportions 20:56:24 ehird`, no. 20:56:28 I was joking 20:56:28 Riemann hypothesis is a trivial consequence of algebraic geometry 20:56:31 stop being silly 20:56:36 anmaster_l: yes, but your joke was based on a misinterpretation 20:56:40 the word "whoosh" is losing its original meaning 20:56:41 I was not even jokingly claiming that I knew everything 20:56:45 so it doesn't even make sense 20:56:48 ehird`, on *intentional* misinterpretation 20:57:01 ais523: you could say the air has gone out of that balloon 20:57:01 anmaster_l: You fuck horses? Whoa! I'm calling the police! 20:57:08 ("misinterpretation" looks a lot like "horse" to ME.) 20:57:15 Riemann hypothesis is a trivial consequence of algebraic geometry <- wait what? 20:57:23 :) 20:57:27 anmaster_l: soupdragon's trolling you 20:57:45 ais523, no I think he is just stupid. 20:57:57 given that the atmosphere in this channel is one such that the regulars can subtly troll each other for months on end, I wouldn't be too surprised 20:58:03 how can someone that mentions algebraic geometry be stupid? 20:58:21 soupdragon isn't stupid 20:58:28 are you confusing him with nooga, who *is* stupid? 20:58:31 or are you just being an asshole 20:58:36 well confused about which one the Riemann hypothesis is then 20:58:48 anmaster_l: NO!! I WAS JOKING! WAAH! 20:58:56 well,* 20:58:56 You're such an idiot you don't get jok-- oh, the irony. 20:59:17 Gotta be one to know one. Or however that thingymagic goes. 20:59:59 ehird`, slept badly recently? 21:00:12 subtract 1 from noone. 21:00:30 also, are all you seriously thinking " ais523, why wouldn't you?" was actually meant *seriously* 21:00:36 I love how whenever I insult anmaster_l he comes up with something really insipid and dull like "omg you're not sleeping well" 21:00:44 What an idiotic reposte 21:00:51 anmaster_l: Let me spell this out for you. 21:01:05 You make a "joke", I make a comment about it. Cue you: "YOU MISSED MY JOKE" 21:01:19 Soupdragon makes a humourous statement, close enough to a joke. 21:01:20 anmaster_l: it was just simply unanswerable, and not particularly a useful comment 21:01:23 Someone else even states this is a joke. 21:01:28 because it was unanswerable, I didn't answer it 21:01:30 And then you go "well i tink dey're just stupid" 21:01:47 You see, this is ironic because you accuse others of not getting jokes while simultaneously failing to get them yourself. 21:02:03 At least I don't call you stupid when you make a shitty oneliner. 21:02:12 the joker has become the joké 21:02:29 anmaster_l: please stop telling jokes. it only encourages ehird` 21:02:42 oerjan, yeah and he is worse at it than me even. :) 21:02:47 Please stop breathing. It only encourages the breathing fairy. 21:03:34 ehird you are men 21:03:37 the breathing fairy is fine except when you get coins stuck in your throat 21:03:38 ehird you are being mean 21:03:44 I am multiple men? 21:03:47 Astonishing. 21:04:09 soupdragon: i'm already past the point of no return wrt anmaster_l, don't really give half a shit about him any more 21:04:18 oerjan, best way is to ignore him for a bit I guess. Was a while ago that last happened 21:04:49 Please do, then the only idiocy you'll say relating to me will be about how you can't understand the channel without my messages 21:04:56 but it's so annoying to only see half of every conversation! 21:05:00 there. Done. That way he can't troll me for a while 21:05:06 oerjan, that *is* true. 21:05:08 Would be nice if you could keep it up for more than five seconds, but, you know. 21:05:10 Too much to ask. 21:05:27 oerjan, thus I guess I should strive for the goal of getting him to ignore me instead 21:06:01 lol I just don't think you think you think you can could or wouldn't have not unless it was set up such that with what would anyway 21:06:07 I'm not idiotic enough to fragment the channel like that. If I couldn't stand hearing you, I'd just /part. 21:06:26 soupdragon: Has anyone ever been as far etc. 21:06:32 :( 21:06:50 i of ever in away whether in so case of grammar 21:06:59 oerjan, :D 21:07:01 Am I drunk? 21:07:16 oerjan, it's not even that I haven't lacked without which to correctly layout the words! 21:07:19 drunk with POWER 21:08:14 anyway, beware of AC power. it hertz! 21:08:46 :) 21:09:08 almost as bad as a splitting head ache 21:09:32 yes, splitting your head certainly aches 21:11:38 Alternating current power. 21:11:50 Alternating current power voltage charge! 21:13:38 Entirely adverb adjective noun sentence! 21:13:45 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:14:08 Interjection! 21:14:39 dammit i was typing with focus into tatham's puzzles 21:15:45 Negative interjection; noun! Other person negative knowledge identity noun! 21:15:52 reset it completely, and you cannot undo past "n" after typing anything else :( 21:27:10 -!- soupdragon has quit ("Leaving"). 21:32:13 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:42:45 -!- jpc has quit ("I will do freaking anything for a new router."). 21:45:19 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:45:23 -!- ehird has joined. 21:52:56 -!- jpc has joined. 22:12:04 [[when ken and i described the new features we were proposing for plan 9 C, including inherited structure elements, to bjarne stroustrup, he said, "if you want C++ you know where to find it." and stormed from the room.]] —Rob Pike 22:12:29 wait, that's a /stroustrup/ quote? 22:12:36 it becomes 10 times more awesome given that context 22:12:51 maybe 11 22:13:11 Man... Plan 9 C is so much better than C++... 22:13:21 I don't quite get it. Stroustrup is the inventor of C++, right? 22:13:28 Yes. 22:13:30 Sgeo_: that's why it's funny 22:13:56 Oh, he felt that they were reinventing C++ basically 22:14:20 I think my sense of humor is dead 22:14:24 Well, they didn't add the unparsable feature to C, so. 22:17:45 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:19:18 i love the image of stroustrup being in the same room as rob pike and ken thompson 22:19:42 and his face just getting redder and redder as they talk about the features they're going to add that sound like c++ features to him 22:22:04 I don't know who Rob Pike and Ken Thompson are 22:22:30 BRB 22:22:31 Sgeo_: You may know them for such things as "UNIX" and "C". 22:23:07 night 22:23:31 Ken Thompson more-so than Rob Pike. 22:24:17 -!- anmaster_l has quit ("Leaving"). 22:26:21 Rob Pike and Ken Thompson are also responsible for Go. 22:33:47 rob pike did later editions of unix + major part of plan 9 + go 22:33:55 rob pike had nothing to do with c whatsoever 22:33:59 Right. 22:34:05 Thinko, I guess? 22:34:44 or you just meant ken 23:02:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/amc72/since_then_c_has_evolved_considerably_it_has_even/c0ibtge?context=4 23:02:17 the mind boggles 23:02:33 i want to stab him. 23:03:44 Programming and management are so radically different... Argh. 23:03:55 (I should note that in both cases, I mean "doing them well") 23:04:08 Doing them poorly can, of course, be done by any shmuck. 23:04:18 anyone who says "If I were to pursue it, I would be great at the job. I'm very driven, and I excel at nearly everything I do" is essentially degrading every profession in existence 23:04:29 Yes. 23:04:33 by saying that it takes less than a lifetime 23:04:58 anyone who says it, therefore, is probably shit at everything and a narcissist to boot 23:05:03 ugh. 23:06:57 Most definitely a narcissist, probably shit at everything. 23:07:25 i hate you so fucking much microsoft, because i activated my LEGIT copy of windows xp five times 23:07:33 you force me to either phone you up and deal with your BULLSHIT 23:07:40 or just download a serial 23:07:43 guess which one i chose, microsoft 23:08:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:12:17 * ehird names his VM "Q" 23:12:22 Whyever not? 23:12:35 Can YOU think of a better hostname than Q? Huh? HUH? 23:26:05 fuck fuck FUCK 23:26:07 my imac display is fucking up 23:26:18 I have alternating lines of light/dark, very subtle but i can see them in window shadows 23:26:30 and the blue colour used in white/blue alternations around the ui has gone off 23:27:49 ...and the bands are only intermittent it seems, ffff 23:39:47 ehird, you bought a copy of XP just for the VM? 23:39:59 Whatever gave you that impression? 23:40:49 You said it was a legit copy 23:41:05 I think it's supposed to be one copy per system 23:41:05 It's inconceivable that I have a legit copy of XP that is years old. 23:41:15 An unused legit copy? 23:41:16 Pretty sure that's a new thing 23:43:44 * Sgeo_ is sometimes scared that he might not be a good programmer 23:45:53 You aren't! (I am such a bastard.) 23:46:46 * Sgeo_ expected something along those lines from ehird 23:47:16 And of course, I can't talk to classmates about this, because in their eyes, I'm superprogrammer. I think it says more about them than it does me 23:48:19 Have you improved your programming skills since PSOX? 23:48:28 -!- Pthing has joined. 23:48:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving"). 23:48:53 The only major project I've really worked on since PSOX I was fired from due to procrastination issues 23:49:16 You know, using business terms like "fired" to apply to non-business projects is really dumb. 23:49:23 It will infect your mind. 23:50:09 Well, I'm no longer part of the project in the capacity of a programmer, although if I learn C#, I can contribute again 23:50:35 -!- coppro has joined. 23:51:17 don't learn c#. 23:52:10 you can fake knowing C# 23:52:20 A bit late for that, I know the basics, I think 23:52:28 Why is C# so horrible? 23:52:49 a) it's controlled by Microsoft b) there are no quality open implementations 23:52:56 (the two issues, while related, are not the same) 23:52:58 coppro: Uhh, Mono is pretty quality. 23:53:02 Anyway, here are the eral reasons: 23:53:06 ehird: For the subset it implements, yes 23:53:11 - It's just Java + lambdas + LINQ 23:53:17 true 23:53:17 LINQ is basically just Haskell Lite 23:53:24 Lambdas are just... lambdas 23:53:28 And Java is, ugh, Java. 23:53:31 *real 23:53:33 - Microsoft 23:53:38 - It's not fun at all! 23:53:39 I'm not sure if the new programmer knows anything about LINQ 23:53:53 Someone with a quote mark in their name showed up unexpectedly and it caused an SQL error 23:54:00 I'm not kidding about faking your name btw 23:54:07 *faking C# knowledge 23:54:20 Sgeo_: why are you always so tied to utter shit 23:54:31 like that asylum guy and this 23:54:47 C# isn't utter shit; it's juts unexciting 23:54:50 *just 23:54:57 coppro: I'm not talking about C# 23:54:59 oh 23:55:08 [23:53] Sgeo_: I'm not sure if the new programmer knows anything about LINQ 23:55:08 [23:53] Sgeo_: Someone with a quote mark in their name showed up unexpectedly and it caused an SQL error 23:55:15 Oh, and this guy plans to use multi-threading with an SDK that doesn't really co-operate well with multi-t.. no, wait, he plans to start that way, and then switch to single-threading 23:55:24 ehird, it's a pre-pre-alpha thing currently 23:55:28 thedailywtf.com wants your story 23:55:31 Although the fact that even then.. 23:55:36 Sgeo_: Seriously, you should make a conscious effort to avoid anyone this retarded. 23:55:43 All they can do is make you dumber. 23:55:48 starting with X and switching to Y later is always bad 23:55:52 just start with Y 23:55:58 lol@multi→single threading though 23:56:09 Let's write all this complex infrastructure for performance gains... and then remove the performance gains! 23:56:13 actually, that's not entirely true 23:56:28 He says he usually makes an effort to make everything organized, but this time he just wants results quickly 23:56:41 I can't blame him for that, considering that my failure to provide results was problematic 23:56:45 http://i.imgur.com/cUUbt.png 23:56:45 AAAAAAAAAH GOD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH 23:57:02 Sgeo_: did you care about the project? 23:57:08 did you find working on it fun? 23:57:12 were you getting paid for doing this? 23:57:16 Not getting paid 23:57:22 But I liked the project 23:57:32 Although I kept getting distracted by things, like Stargate SG-1 23:57:42 if A is *very, VERY high* then work. otherwise, if C is high then work. otherwise, if B is high then work. 23:57:45 if not, don't work. 23:57:57 I assume A isn't *very, VERY high* for you, i.e. you don't care about it more than, say, water. 23:58:06 ehird, wrong 23:58:14 A is very high for me 23:58:26 It's a futuristic remake of a game that holds a lot of nostalgic value for me 23:58:31 But not very, *very* high. I mean the amount Eliezer Yudkowsky cares about the singularity. 23:58:49 I think EY would kill himself if it'd cause the singularity. 23:58:54 you are allowed to do X and switch to Y later as long as you keep the switch under an hour's work 23:59:08 So, you're not getting paid anything at all. 23:59:11 So the final question is... 23:59:13 and only to construct another component 23:59:14 Did you find working on it fun? 23:59:35 Well, not fun as much as interesting 23:59:52 * oerjan vaguely thought EY believed in staying alive at all costs... 23:59:54 Clearly not fun enough to make you actually do it, if you found watching Stargate more fun.