00:01:34 There now exists another link between "Sgeo" and my RL name :/ 00:01:45 MWAHAHA 00:02:35 There exists a link between "Gregor" and my real-life name D-8 00:03:56 pesky ircname fields. is there no way to get around them! 00:04:26 Sgeo: Y'know, it's much easier to just not attempt anonymity. 00:04:56 * Sgeo has also posted on a Mario .. site, despite not having any interest in Mario 00:05:22 http://forums.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=112527#p112527 00:08:50 -!- cpressey has quit ("Leaving."). 00:11:43 -!- Wareya has joined. 00:27:12 A "Mario .. site" 00:27:15 I assume that means "Mario porn site" 00:27:56 yummy 00:44:20 -!- cheater2 has joined. 00:45:59 -!- cheater3 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:46:30 *sigh* 00:47:24 going from my nick to my name is easy 00:47:26 the reverse is not 00:47:39 hmm... looks like I don't even show up until page 3 00:47:39 elsenet, some irregular visitor to an IRC channel came in and started saying how great some bidding/auction website was 00:47:42 hooray generic name! 00:47:53 SimonRC: well is it? 00:48:00 dunno 00:48:31 how weird that you would complain then! 00:48:35 I didn't recognise them, so naturally I assumed they were someone poor with good English skills being paid to advertise on IRC 00:48:46 I mean, it would work as marketing 00:49:05 unlike a simple bot they can pass the Turing Test 00:49:07 hmm. interesting theory. 00:49:20 but logs revealed this person was there before 00:49:28 but i still think he's for real 00:50:04 yeah, it seems they are a "real" member of the channel 00:50:37 the only article I can find about the site (with a quick search) is this: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/11/19/bigdeal-com-reinvents-and-legitimizes-swoopos-controversial-auction-bidding-model/ 00:51:18 because imitating Swoopo is really the way to get people to trust you! 00:52:19 that's like describing a political party by saying "they're like the Nazis, except ..." and gradually listing every difference 00:52:44 well thatsounds great 00:52:47 *that sounds 00:52:54 i mean the article 00:53:11 also swoopo 00:53:27 um, no 00:53:33 um, yes. 00:53:39 great for whom? 00:53:54 sounds like a fun game 00:54:34 not with hundereds of quid at stake it isn't 00:55:18 oh you have to bid? well then it sounds sort of evil. 00:55:34 i thought you could not use the site 00:56:05 huh? 00:56:14 well what's evil about making idiots give their money to you? 00:56:36 Jeff Atwood explains Swoopo: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001261.html 00:57:14 and that site does a darn good Swoopo impression without some of the nastier bits 00:57:55 SimonRC: Even if it's "They're like Nazis, but not German"? 00:57:56 :P 00:58:52 oh i thought you have to pay the amount you bid, but you just have to pay for bids 00:59:03 i admit that's much better 01:03:00 join our party. it's a gas! 01:03:28 consider: everyone pays the amount they bid last, but only the biggest bid actually gets the product 01:04:07 ouch --> "the [Swoopo] auction is extended 15 seconds each and every time someone bids in those final seconds" 01:04:42 well obviously, otherwise it'd be about timing 01:21:34 You could also just end at a random time within a range. 01:22:00 randomless makes it less pure 01:22:04 *ness 01:29:49 indeed, you can only be random in the IO monad 01:29:55 * SimonRC goes to bed 01:35:17 -!- cheater has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:35:17 -!- rodgort has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:35:17 -!- uorygl has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:37:14 -!- cheater has joined. 01:37:14 -!- uorygl has joined. 01:37:14 -!- rodgort has joined. 01:38:39 oddly enough, the thing that might make me finally learn Haskell is the IO subsystem 01:42:42 oerjan: a bit too easy 01:42:55 (not that it occurred to me) 01:42:57 The thing that made me learn Haskell was a professor :P 01:43:40 yay three hours of sleep -> 01:44:38 Gregor: It's likely to happen that way if I don't get to it myself 01:45:52 greatest error message ever: "The database hates you right now. The entry might exist or it might not exist. We would clear this mystery up for you, if we could get to the database. We tried to look it up, but the database puked up an error." 01:48:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:52:37 they shouldn't have used the same database for that AI 01:53:07 YOU HAVE OFFENDED THE GREAT DATABASE GODS 01:53:14 What hath you to say for yourself? 01:53:25 um which one of us? 02:03:36 Idonno, whoever. 02:03:46 whew 02:18:32 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:46:26 -!- augur has joined. 04:58:34 -!- clog has joined. 04:58:34 -!- clog has joined. 04:59:16 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:19:28 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:41:24 -!- Pthing has joined. 05:45:29 -!- augur has joined. 06:14:42 -!- adam_d has joined. 07:08:15 -!- sexygirl153 has quit. 07:28:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:31:48 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:37:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:44:37 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:16:33 -!- jpc has quit ("I will do anything (almost) for a new router."). 08:37:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:39:28 <- whoops seven hours of sleep 08:46:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:22:33 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving"). 09:27:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:49:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("co'o rodo"). 10:10:53 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:18:34 -!- rodgort` has joined. 10:21:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:22:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:27:53 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:38:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:40:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:00:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:10:42 -!- Slereah has quit (Client Quit). 11:13:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:14:29 -!- Leonidas1 has changed nick to Leonidas. 11:15:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:20:29 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:38:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:55:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:56:30 -!- nooga_ has joined. 12:02:52 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:12:54 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:25:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:32:15 -!- scarf has joined. 12:44:33 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:45:57 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:06:02 I had a weird dream last night 13:06:15 apparently fizzie had managed to install an "extra" road sign next to the road I live on 13:06:23 which stayed hidden, then popped out of nowhere 13:06:35 with fungot babble on, with a corpus designed to produce lots of questions 13:06:40 and an arrow pointing upwards/forwards 13:08:04 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving"). 13:11:50 Have you checked that this was, in fact, a dream? 13:13:47 actually, no 13:13:52 but I suspect it was 13:14:16 it was hilarious seeing drivers drive down the road and suddenly have a semi-coherent question pop out of nowhere, though 13:16:05 It sounds like a good idea, but a bit too complicated to actually do. 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quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:42:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:57:33 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:22:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:24:22 -!- Ayeraw has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:14:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:44:48 -!- scarf has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:53:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:58:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 20:00:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:02:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:25:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:47:03 hi 20:47:14 ho 20:48:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 21:14:20 -!- augur has joined. 21:15:06 -!- tombom__ has joined. 21:16:04 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 21:32:50 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:11:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 22:18:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:19:37 check this craziness out: git is occasionally a lot slower than CVS, due to working on an entire repository rather than per file :D 22:25:39 Yeah -- having to work with Mercurial regularly now, I have to say my regard for distributed version control is... not very high. 22:28:54 Funny. After switching from SVN to darcs, I never looked back. (Although I did look forward and switched to Mercurial) 22:30:27 Funny, seems to me that the only thing worse than CVS is RCS. 22:32:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:32:04 pikhq: Ever used SCCS? 22:32:15 No. 22:32:37 Gregor: let me guess, worse than RCS? :) 22:34:04 -!- tombom__ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:35:04 To be fair, it predated RCS, and basically invented revision control. 22:36:08 is currying an example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function-level_programming 22:36:09 ? 22:37:16 cheater3: Uh - kind of, I think. 22:37:47 No, you can curry without doing that. 22:37:51 I think the Haskell crowd would use the term "point-free" for what Backus calls "function-level" -- if I read that page correctly. 22:38:30 Well, function-level programming would encourage currying over not currying. 22:39:31 But yes, just because you're currying something doesn't mean you are necessarily thinking/coding in a "function-level" way 22:39:45 pikhq: i know you can curry without it, but that's not what i am asking about 22:40:50 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree 22:41:02 currying is just sugar, though, as far as i'm concerned. 22:41:39 sugar for what? 22:41:59 sugar for a function which takes N arguments and returns a function which takes N-1 arguments 22:42:11 hmm 22:42:47 and currying only happens in one direction, when really, you could "pre-set" any of a function's arguments that way 22:43:28 yeah, currying in one direction is stupid 22:43:32 but oh well 22:43:47 so what would a program in function level programming look like 22:44:55 probably like some of the examples on that Pointfree wiki page. No variable names, but lots of "adapter" functions 22:45:06 would it look like ff1(ff2(f1(), f2()), ff3(ff5(f6()), f3()), ff4(f7())) 22:45:09 something like this? 22:45:34 f7 could for example be the 'input' function 22:45:39 aka the argument 22:46:22 well, that wouldn't be "pure" functional programming, since the value returned by f7() would change over time. 22:47:13 pointfree is not funciton-level, it is value-level 22:47:36 cpressey: function-level does not need to be functional. it is not functional programming. 22:48:10 cheater3: I see. 22:48:14 pointfree is value-level because it serves as a build up of values, from which other values are constructed, and so on, until you get the final value which is your program 22:48:21 The page on value-level programming makes that clearer. 22:48:50 *wikipedia page. 22:49:01 there are no other pages 22:49:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-level_programming 22:50:33 i meant, there are no other pages than in wikipedia. ;p 22:51:09 I agree, pointfree is value-level. In that case, I'm not sure what the function-level page is talking about... 22:51:47 And, I'm not familiar with any of the languages listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Function-level_languages 22:51:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_%28programming_language%29 22:51:52 check this out 22:52:01 read it top to bottom 22:52:53 Currying isn't sugar. *Non-monadic functions* are sugar. 22:53:03 ;) 22:53:21 I mean, I've encountered FP before, but I have no idea what is supposed to make it "function-level" as opposed to "value-level" 22:53:37 Also, damned English, overloading "monadic". :P 22:53:49 It certainly seems like you could do "value level programming" quite straightforwardly in it? 22:55:32 cpressey: the 'functionals' in fp 22:55:43 cheater3:OK, I think I'm seeing it now. 22:56:52 remember that formula i typed up, ff are the functionals, while f are the modules (functions defined by FP. you cannot explicitly define other functions.) 22:57:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:59:06 It's about being only able to create new functions by having them be returned by (a combination of) existing functions, it would seem? 23:00:08 no 23:00:14 a function cannot process another function 23:00:23 only a functional can process a function and return a function 23:00:28 a function always returns a value 23:00:35 except, you never bind values 23:01:00 Oh. So it's partly about distinguishing functionals *from* functions (which "functional languages" rarely do)? 23:01:12 yes 23:01:22 functional languages have nothing to do with function-oriented languages 23:01:35 Interesting. 23:01:39 well, i dunno if it's about distinguishing in the general, but in particular fp does that 23:01:54 maybe you could come up with a language where functionals are functions. 23:02:01 and it would be function-level too. 23:02:12 so in fact what you are building up is a structure without the constants and without the input arguments here 23:02:41 What, you mean there's languages with types other than functions? 23:02:49 It would seem any sufficiently "functional" language (Scheme, Haskell, whatever) would at least allow you to write functionals as higher-order functions, and permit you to write function-level programs. Though not force you to. 23:03:09 pikhq: You are mistaken. There are no languages, only rewrite systems. 23:03:19 ;) 23:03:21 cpressey: you are mixing abstractions. you could write a DSL in haskell, and it could be function-level, but haskell is not function-level. 23:03:25 i think it is not. 23:03:50 cpressey: you are mistaken, there are no rewrite systems, only self-mutating data. 23:05:40 cpressey: i think it really explains the point if you consider that constants in FP are actually calls to the functional constant:x which transforms its argument to the constant valued function always returning that argument. 23:05:42 cheater3: That doesn't seem to conflict with what I said: Haskell permits you to write in a function-level style. (If you want to define such a subset and technique and call it a DSL, that's perfectly valid.) 23:06:06 cpressey: function-level is about what you cannot do, not about what you can do 23:06:13 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:06:36 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:07:25 So if I write a program which follows all the rules of function-level programming, but that program is in a language which allows violations of the rules of function-level programming -- is that program "function-level" or not? 23:10:01 following your logic i could say that php runs erlang because it's turing-complete 23:10:25 PHP = Erlang 23:10:27 problem solved! 23:13:56 Sort of. But I don't think it's a very good comparison. Haskell (just as example) seems to be a superset of the machinery required for FLP, whereas PHP isn't a superset of Erlang. 23:14:39 Specifically, functionals sound like a particular role for higher-order functions, which is why I asked about a distinction being made between them and HOFs. 23:14:42 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:17:54 that distinction is not the defining thing for FLP 23:18:27 Well, that's as far as I've gotten. If not that, what is? 23:18:28 the defining thing is generation of structure 23:18:57 Can you be more specific? 23:19:21 imagine a typical program in an imperative language but on the right side of = there aren't any values, there's just . 23:20:09 Just function calls? 23:20:10 if(.) { x = . ; y = foo(x); z = y * .; } 23:20:26 and then you fill in the dots with what you want 23:20:37 What can "what I want" be? 23:20:50 flat values, called 'atoms' 23:21:04 Thought you said there weren't any values :) 23:21:23 no 23:21:26 there aren't any 23:21:29 only dots 23:21:45 what i typed in with the dots is the output of an FLP program 23:21:58 what you do with it later happens outside of FLP 23:22:24 that program gets evaluated on a certain set of values you plug in for such 'dots' 23:22:53 -!- jpc has joined. 23:23:10 this has the immediate result of two programs with the same structure but different resources being the same according to FLP 23:24:28 Sorry, I must be thick, since I'm just not getting it. 23:24:56 ok 23:24:56 And I'm afraid I must be off. 23:25:12 it's ok, you don't need to understand, i'm happy that i understand. ;) 23:26:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:27:03 -!- cpressey has left (?). 23:45:41 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving"). 23:45:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:51:41 -!- MissPiggy has quit.