< 1264204933 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, become a RoboZZle addict like the rest of us! < 1264204937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264204941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1264205013 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :veep veep < 1264205015 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1264205057 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264205135 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Having reached a gross -- in at least two senses -- number of levels, I stop here; feel free to do 145 or whatever to be #1. < 1264205205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What have I done?? < 1264205252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1264205418 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, the game works ~perfectly on the N900 browser. < 1264205422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The JS version, I mean. < 1264205450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's perhaps a slight lag involved in the code editor part, but actually running a solution seems about as fast as Firefox on the desktop. < 1264205476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's reasonably nice; I don't think I'll have the motivation to actually spend time with the puzzles much more, but maybe they'd work as a time-waster in a bus or something. < 1264205493 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, write some puzzles! < 1264205561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there a Javascript version of the editor? < 1264205629 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe so, no < 1264205631 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1264205834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. How did Deewiant design his level, then? < 1264205847 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rebooted into Windows. < 1264206127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: if you're really going to sleep, i'll leave it a draw < 1264206165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How considerate! But yes, I am; away right now, in fact. < 1264206176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good < 1264206231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll probably have to leave my homework for tomorrow, THANKS SGEO FOR RUINING MY SCHEDULE < 1264206247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. okay you'll probably take that seriously, i take it back. < 1264206254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love the game < 1264206284 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Tomorrow you'll notice fizzie's score again and leave it for the next day again < 1264206291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1264206366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, i'm fine with fizzie being better than me; he has a master's degree. < 1264206454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you really think I take everything seriously? < 1264206496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. i think you take things personally slightly easier than others. might be wrong (this is not a test!) < 1264206606 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no real way to judge himself as to whether that's the case, and to whether that needs fixing < 1264206639 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is a master of robozzle < 1264206643 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do like the rest of us and don't care about anything < 1264206731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not trying to split the credit or anything (i totally am), i'm pretty sure i've played less than him today < 1264206752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*but < 1264206768 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has the highest degrees of robozzle skill < 1264206784 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooooo :P < 1264206797 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, maybe < 1264206812 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he *is* incredibly perfect at everything, not arguing that. < 1264206874 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i catch up with him, will you worship me too? < 1264206918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are at the same place as him < 1264206931 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also; I was just trying to make puns about 'masters degree' < 1264206940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264206959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his degree is in flash games < 1264206965 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what/? < 1264206966 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1264206971 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264206978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have that in finland < 1264206981 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a real degree < 1264206982 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1264206988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION posts a link to Robozzle to reddit < 1264206998 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think me, fizzie and Deewiant are so great that robuzzle or whatever it's called < 1264207007 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't look at the name yet < 1264207011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay robozzle < 1264207032 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*great at < 1264207041 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sentences are great < 1264207102 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/WebGames/comments/at2lp/robozzle_a_fun_and_addicting_robot_programming/ < 1264207161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, did someone just drop me from the list. < 1264207169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what list? < 1264207175 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top-something list < 1264207178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know reddit. < 1264207367 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1264207429 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264208086 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264208491 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1264209910 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@71.216.13.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264210578 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1264210840 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1264212148 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264212461 0 :jpc!n=jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264213156 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1264213161 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264214286 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1264216828 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264218530 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1264218820 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1264218820 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1264223071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264223414 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264223911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264226629 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1264226988 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264227403 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1264228049 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1264228387 0 :adam_d_!n=Adam@71.216.13.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264228578 0 :MigoMipo!n=migomipo@84-217-8-233.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264229001 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1264229007 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1264229977 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264230521 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264230600 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1264230601 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1264230610 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuurgh, i'm looking for some old recordings on my DVDs < 1264232054 0 :MizardX-!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1264233036 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264233039 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1264233401 0 :asiek2!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1264233402 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264233599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1264233600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1264234958 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1264234980 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264235585 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264235597 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1264235653 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1264235941 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1264235975 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo it's all your fault for telling everyone about robozzle and now i'm playing it < 1264237038 0 :asiek2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1264237040 0 :asiek2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is, sgeo < 1264237048 0 :asiek2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like you for that < 1264237060 0 :asiek2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also thanks to you it might appear on the NES soon < 1264237064 0 :asiek2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES, the nes does have enough RAM < 1264238970 0 :jpc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"I will do anything (almost) for a new router." < 1264239760 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1264240068 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it might appear on... uhh... pygame? < 1264240072 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, gnight < 1264240072 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it" < 1264240729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, oklobbol has dropped from 144 to 142 in the last-24-hours list, whereas I haven't yet; I think I started the thing about 21 hours ago. < 1264240946 0 :asiek2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Pong timeout: 180 seconds" < 1264242068 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p5B133AE6.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264242336 0 :zeotrope!n=zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096641911.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1264243150 0 :tombom!i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1264244442 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1264245381 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1264245469 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:W/ < 1264246007 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1264246062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh slow internet.. (I know why, uploading something, but it is still annoying) < 1264246092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, looks like spam < 1264246152 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it is text only and not something worse... < 1264248207 0 :noddd!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1264248244 0 :MissPiggy!n=quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1264248245 0 :noddd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, it's the last 24 hours, not just like current 24h period < 1264248253 0 :noddd!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklofok < 1264248278 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By installing Brainfuck, you will be able to experience the power of Brainfuck??? < 1264248293 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe it's true < 1264248312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what that based on < 1264248350 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i understand the q < 1264248493 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to make an esolang based on RoboZZle < 1264248511 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically an application consists of a map, the start coords and the robot command < 1264248513 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1264248524 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will be able to set any block on the map to any ASCII char < 1264248526 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and output any of them < 1264248529 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or take input < 1264248572 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, if you add commands that modify the map non-locally, i will be very angry < 1264248585 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can only modify the spot you're on < 1264248586 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1264248593 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have infinite functions < 1264248599 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah good, was wondering if you were describing that < 1264248601 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1264248608 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite length for programs? < 1264248609 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1264248610 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both < 1264248612 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no F1...F5 < 1264248617 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no max length of 10 per function < 1264248620 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1264248622 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's F1...FF < 1264248627 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the max length is nonexistant < 1264248629 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fine. < 1264248629 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, 16 functions < 1264248765 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking of adding local jumps < 1264248766 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1264248776 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J-1 would jump 1 command before < 1264248782 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J+10 would jump 10 commands after < 1264248793 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and F1+10 would jump to the 11th command in function 1 < 1264248811 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so jumps in functions, not on map? < 1264248942 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1264248945 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the map < 1264248947 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only go forward < 1264248948 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :left < 1264248950 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or right < 1264248959 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264249066 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-124-15.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1264250153 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264250196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Reddit might have marked my post as spam < 1264250220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it when looking at http://www.reddit.com/r/WebGames/new/?sort=new in incognito mode < 1264250469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION asks a moderator < 1264250639 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i'll make a game based on RoboZZle and other thing < 1264250649 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Overly Complicated Robotic Programmer" < 1264250661 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like a combination of GolfScript, Befunge, RoboZZle and Brainf**k < 1264250666 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 6502 assembler < 1264250954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the challenge of robozzle is to translate the higher level idea into this terrible low level code? < 1264251101 0 :MigoMipo!n=migomipo@84-217-1-189.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264251135 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1264251150 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1264251155 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be like < 1264251159 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only you have far more space < 1264251168 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also get (as an extra) 7 colors of spaces < 1264251172 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually nah < 1264251175 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd just be a roboclone < 1264251187 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or i could combine Robozzle with Boulder Dash < 1264251188 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rockfozzle < 1264251192 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fun < 1264251212 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'd be colored dirt < 1264251226 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when walked through the dirt turns into an empty of that color < 1264251241 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also detects if there's a rock in front of you < 1264251545 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1264251554 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'd be an extra conditional < 1264251562 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ROCK? if yes, jump to function whatthe!@$" < 1264251807 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a good idea < 1264252046 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264252833 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1264253582 0 :Nanakhiel!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264255554 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264255860 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Is there "efficient" way to construct one-to-one mapping between elements of regular language and Z_n or Z? < 1264256286 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264256446 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1264256487 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264257126 0 :Sgeo_!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264257314 0 :rodgort`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264257316 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a computable function that, given a string, tells its number, and the inverse? < 1264257658 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1264257682 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1264258041 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and more efficient than just enumerating the strings in order... < 1264258161 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm I was thinking about multiplying primes together for that, but going backwards would mean factoring < 1264258188 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is, you'd know the number factors into high-ish powers of small primes < 1264258209 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264258231 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For even contex-sensitive language, doing the functions based on pure enumeration in order would be possible, but would have horrid complexity. < 1264258308 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exponential obviously, if the language only generates subexponential amounts of strings w.r.t. length < 1264258377 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh actually even more, because it's not enough to enumerate, you need to be able to actually evaluate the functions at some point :) < 1264259134 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox < 1264259208 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264259540 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the following encoding work: Write the regular language as minimum DFA. Assign integers 0, 1, 2, ... for each valid symbol from each state (+ end here if state accepts), so that 0 is always on shortest path to accepting state or end here. Then write number as variable-radix with least-signficant number being for starting state. < 1264259769 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-172-3-224.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264259822 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, doesn't work. < 1264260033 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider DFA that accepts even number of characters with alphabet {'A','B'}. The first state is starting, accepting and and has three "exits". The second has two exits. 4 decodes to "AB", but 3 decodes to "" and 0 too decodes to "". So that doesn't work. < 1264260568 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if on decoding, each time accepting vertex is hit with nonzero quotent, the quotent gets decremented by 1 before continuing and only symbols are exits for even accepting states (if its 0, string ends). < 1264260694 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quotient = language that gets us to accepting state, right? < 1264260727 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay i'm sure it is < 1264260745 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1264260757 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well clearly not from what you said < 1264260760 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1264260833 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quotent gets its name from the fact that it would get divided after each character... < 1264260848 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man that Eliezer guy is really scary < 1264260869 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's the kind of guy you feel like he could crush you by just imagining it < 1264260897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what if we just have a regular language, and we just recursively go through it, every time both branches are infinite, we set "next bit = 1" to one branch, "next bit = 0" to the other, if one is finite, we just give it just enough numbers, and so on < 1264260907 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infiniteness can be checked efficiently < 1264260922 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1264260938 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really didn't think that through, just a gut-feeling < 1264260945 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1264260950 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant "regular expression" < 1264260951 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1264260971 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1264260980 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regexps can't exactly be made unambiguous can they? < 1264260990 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: which Eleizer? < 1264261004 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a*)* can parse aaaaaaa in gazillion different derivations < 1264261013 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC Yudkowsky < 1264261019 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1264261029 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't find that < 1264261030 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just reading what Sgeo linked about the AI box < 1264261041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other Elizers?? < 1264261047 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for A + B, you'd check if both are infinite, if so, you give the numbers ...0 to A (bijection by induction), and the numbers ...0 to B, if they are both finite, you just give like |A| numbers to A branch, and you add |A| to whatever B gives you < 1264261053 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well yeah < 1264261095 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah but can we make them unambiguous, that was the question < 1264261106 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for A + B, you can just check the intersection < 1264261112 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I read denesting the stars in undecidible < 1264261115 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for AB, just as easy < 1264261117 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264261128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can still make it unambiguous somehow? < 1264261216 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, one would have to have ordered alphabet to make the encoding uniquely determined. < 1264261230 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264261450 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no i don't think you can; i don't know if that directly implies you can't, either < 1264261466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is, after all, named after a prophet < 1264261502 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can see that there can't be a *good* reason to let the AI out, or E.Y. would have convinced himself with that argument < 1264261549 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes the experiments weren't secret < 1264261567 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to know how the AI did it < 1264261595 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he says, if you let me out I will give you 20 dollars instead of 10 < 1264261617 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, see the protocol < 1264261631 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to both of you) < 1264261703 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wishing the protocol didn't say what it said means I need to read the protocol? < 1264261779 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1264261781 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1264261841 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, ww < 1264261849 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, wait, *that* was ww < 1264261851 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1264261852 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has breakfast < 1264261946 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider the language given by 'A{2}|BA*'. Minimal DFA has 4 states. Pick 0 for A and 1 for B for first state. 0 => "AA", 1 => "B", 2 => invalid exit. 3 => "BA". So it doesn't work. < 1264262282 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's ww? < 1264262624 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Given DFA, number of strings that start in given state is probably computable. If accepting state is unreachable, its 0, if cycle and accepting state is reachable, its infinite, otherwise its finite... < 1264262645 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is departing Season 7 of SG-1 < 1264262894 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264262920 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another decoding algorithm attempt: On each state encountered, check if quotent is less than number of strings starting with symbol that takes to state with finite set of accepted postfixes (+1 for accepting states). If its less, pick that string. If its more, substract the number from quotent and pick exit (dividing quotent by number of exits to states with infinite number of postfixes). < 1264263014 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way: 'A{2}|BA*' would give 0 => AA, 1 => BA, 2 => BAA, 3 => BAAA, ... < 1264263032 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264263162 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. 1 => B, 2 => BA, 3 => BAA... < 1264263292 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The postfix count is efficently computable by first doing topological sort and then using dynamic programming. < 1264263338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The key idea is that if you can improve intelligence even a little, the process accelerates. It’s a tipping point. Like trying to balance a pen on one end – as soon as it tilts even a little, it quickly falls the rest of the way." < 1264263351 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why hasn't it happened already then? < 1264263380 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did, several thousand years ago < 1264263394 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1264263398 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :written language :) < 1264263423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1264263423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not spoken? < 1264263463 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in terms of the kind of major transformative changes done by civilization, you can argue that larger scale and more persistent information transmission was needed than oral culture allows < 1264263514 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im honestly not even vaguely qualified to comment on the topic of how written language influenced the development of civilization, I was just trying to make the claim that everything talked about in the 'singularity' concept actually already happened, more or less < 1264263544 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1264263594 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what I believe to be the canonical contemporary statement, defining the singularity as a point at which future events become unpredictable from past events, so far as I know that condition has *always* applied to historical prognostication < 1264263668 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I dont think anyone really believes the old-old version of singularity theory where the mass-energy manipulation capacity of the species was going to suddenly reach cosmological scale within a very short time < 1264263727 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the version I was introduced to a long time ago, based on charting energy manipulation of thes species and a huge ramp up starting in the 19th century with another huge leap to atomic weapons, and then extrapolating to galaxy-rebuilding within a few short decades < 1264263770 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays I tend to put all this together in my mind under the label "curve-fitting is dangerous and tricky" < 1264263792 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I still want to upload my mind to a computer < 1264263826 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can, more or less - just create a lot of stuff via the action of your mind and store it on the computer < 1264263852 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a bit of a lunatic, but I happen to think for instance that the souls of artists are basically 'uploaded' in their creative works - when i play a beethoven sonata on the piano, i feel that i directly experience beethoven's literal consciousness < 1264263868 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that his cognitive essence, albeit in a 'frozen' state that cant interact with the external world, still persists < 1264263923 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, playing classical music on the piano often makes me feel that my brain has been literally taken over, and my consciousness has been temporarily overwritten by executing the source code of the music < 1264263949 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there is related concept what I call "technological escalation". Reliance upon technology building upon reliance upon technology. If it continues unchecked long enough, the culture in question will likely rip itself apart. < 1264263967 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which brings me to being almost on-topic - has anyone ever written a programming language expressed in musical notation? would be basically trivial < 1264263997 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, you could arbitrarily convert brainfuck to musical notation and back with almost no hassle < 1264264089 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be interesting though to try to do something where the syntactic rules of the language enforced musical harmony < 1264264116 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1264264117 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1264264127 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forte < 1264264146 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err no not forte < 1264264155 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder where i got that idea... ;) < 1264264192 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fugue < 1264264217 0 :MizardX!n=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1264264274 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very cool - although this is a programming language for creating music, it isnt expressed itself within notation, is it? or is the mapping so strict that a fugue program is equivalent to its representation in sheet music? < 1264264336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shares semantics with its sister language, Prelude, but uses music as source code. < 1264264351 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the sheet is actually the code < 1264264407 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what if there was a language in which every sheet of music had the semantics of playing the song, wouldn't that be just sweet! < 1264264785 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I believe that language is called "sheet music" < 1264264866 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the interpreter is called "a musician" < 1264265371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if it's a different song than what's on the sheet music? < 1264265372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264265692 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way oklofok phrased it, it seems that each sheet represents the full song. I don't think sheet music can do that with multiple-sheet music < 1264266000 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wow that exists? < 1264266006 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are so fucked up < 1264266189 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-156-192-83.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264266293 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264266986 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are everyone on lesswrong atheists? < 1264267064 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Religion is the trial case we can all imagine. (Readers born to atheist parents have missed out on a fundamental life trial, and must make do with the poor substitute of thinking of their religious friends.)" < 1264267128 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264267160 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264267622 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264267766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean 'Eliezer-level rationalist'? < 1264267873 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-1-189.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264268251 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, is green really supposed to have anything to do with left, or is that a red herring? < 1264268262 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1264268267 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're doing the untrivial triviality? < 1264268283 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the untrivial trivialities* < 1264268291 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1264268293 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then that's up to you to find out < 1264268293 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, did it < 1264268302 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? :D < 1264268324 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By skipping a green and going right < 1264268330 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on green) < 1264268335 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1264268344 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1264268345 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean < 1264268349 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't use a stack? :O < 1264268372 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack's only needed if you actually pay attention to the line about "left" < 1264268387 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1264268389 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that < 1264268402 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, the title is correct < 1264268419 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1264268429 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few stars in select locations would fix that < 1264268461 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i'll put them < 1264268463 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or would it? < 1264268492 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you'd have to have some in that loop thing if you don't want them just continuing right on green < 1264268552 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll put them in the locations i can < 1264268557 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without spoiling the correct way < 1264268703 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok's currently in the 24h lead < 1264268742 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, oklofok's solved more total than fizzie o.O < 1264268745 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :132 < 1264268748 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1264268772 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://robozzle.com/puzzle.aspx?id=1640 - fixed < 1264268867 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264268952 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will try it a bit later < 1264269019 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, there being a chatroom I can talk about RoboZZle in makes it much more fun for me... < 1264269083 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would love it more if i didn't suck at it < 1264269114 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok is obviously delusional. < 1264269123 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinking he's bad at it < 1264269139 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've done like one that's been rated near 4 < 1264269174 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1264269178 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can barely do ones that are rated 2.25 < 1264269180 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't really tried many hard ones, but i couldn't do the last one in the campaign, idea is trivial, i just can't make it work. < 1264269249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reading less wrong and worrying about whether I should be reading it or not < 1264269266 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would be wrong with reading it? < 1264269280 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should probably take it as a template, and first implementing a working thing that just goes over the size limit < 1264269310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems like a waste of time, even though it's nice to read stuff and nod your head, if you already agree with it all it's sort of pointless? < 1264269320 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like blogs in general < 1264269393 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should play robozzle < 1264269410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at asiekierkas puzzle, bemused < 1264269456 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which version? < 1264269502 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SafeAuto seems to advertise exclusively to people who are driving illegally without insurance. < 1264269531 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SG-1 time < 1264269571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: "Brilliant". < 1264269614 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They advertise that you'll save because they'll give you the state minimum coverage. < 1264269624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SafeAuto: Insurance for the irresponsible! < 1264269630 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1264269683 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to damn hard < 1264269684 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1264269764 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, the un-fixed version shouldn't be < 1264269782 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can there be two greens in a row < 1264269794 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't detect that because the robot only sees what it is standing on < 1264269982 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switch state upon encountering one < 1264269992 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that you start out in F1, but switch to F2 < 1264270388 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: SG-1? where? < 1264270464 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, on Hulu < 1264270540 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1264270583 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't work Sgea < 1264270585 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo* < 1264270726 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, how not? < 1264270749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine you are on a blue path and want to ignore green-green, but turn left on green < 1264270754 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's impossible in robozzle < 1264270766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to code in something else, like turn right on the 3rd green < 1264270773 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(s/right/left/) < 1264270853 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or ignore just the first green it ever comes across < 1264270963 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, remember, this is a broken version. Why should the description have anything to do with the puzzle? < 1264271124 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264271315 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1264271387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says [fixed] < 1264271547 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1264271555 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the [fixed] one has more stars < 1264271558 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore the solution is not so < 1264271730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so??? < 1264271733 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand anyone here < 1264271759 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it unsolvable? < 1264272033 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the [fixed] one? < 1264272036 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: it uses stacks < 1264272039 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can't do stacks, you fail < 1264272073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on with this http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Yudkowsky%27s_coming_of_age < 1264272085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nevermind, I get it < 1264272098 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was expecting the posts to be from 2000-2003, but they are from 2008 because it's just talking about 2000-2003 < 1264272386 0 :jpc!n=jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264272518 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1264273593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it just seems like a waste of time, even though it's nice to read stuff and nod your head, if you already agree with it all it's sort of pointless? < 1264273623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take it to the meta-level: the fact that you agree with all a group says should itself be a warning signal that you are _not_ rational. < 1264273628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1264273648 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how that is meta-level < 1264273683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you are then thinking about _why_ you agree with what the blog says < 1264273704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's all obvious :[ < 1264273747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cartoon loeb thing was cool, I didnt' realize he wrote it < 1264273752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, less wrong is clearly a cult of "rationality". even if they are right. < 1264273770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not just a blog? < 1264273784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh they've probably discussed that as well < 1264273791 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1264273792 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every blog can develop a cult < 1264273810 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a challenge? < 1264273824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1264273869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think before accepting the challenge, i'd at least add the qualifier "that many people read" < 1264273889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/accepting/making/ < 1264273953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i just realized i'm saying this because it's obvious, not because i have any actual evidence < 1264274241 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264274825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1264274862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ughf < 1264275039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Once upon a time it seemed to me that I ought to be able to win at the AI-Box Experiment; and it seemed like a very doubtful and hubristic thought; so I tested it. Then later it seemed to me that I might be able to win even with large sums of money at stake, and I tested that, but I only won 1 time out of 3. So that was the limit of my ability at that time, and it was not necessary to argue myself upward or downward, because I could just test it. < 1264275923 0 :zeotrope!n=zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096641911.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1264276110 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lesswrong sort of treats the reader as an idiot. < 1264276241 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles "lesswrong", follows the link, and finds bizarre cryonics related material < 1264276453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok really?? < 1264276469 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's why I like it < 1264276605 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get a sort of "why don't people think about this stuff?!?!" feeling, and it's annoying because it's really simple stuff < 1264276621 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, i get the feeling the writer is saying that < 1264276630 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I think I was getting that too < 1264276635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's just because it sounds smart, dunno < 1264276639 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1264276698 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway most of the posts seem to be spot on, although you could phrase them more concisely < 1264276749 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's the real reason why i feel i'm being treated as an idiot < 1264276790 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read a few paragraphs and i'm like "yeah i agree people tend to argue about words instead of actual meaning", and then there's like three pages of explaining and examples and blah < 1264276847 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1264276852 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264276984 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand i can't stop reading :P < 1264277006 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comments seem to be youtube level < 1264277027 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where on the internet are comments not youtube level, though? < 1264277225 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well here on irc we tend to be pretty smurt right < 1264277286 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually #esoteric is probably the single most intellectually terrifying place on the internet, I'd agree - I mean I can do some programming, I understand stuff like symbolic logic a bit, but a lot of people in here seem to be able to analyze formal systems almost instinctively < 1264277350 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes get the impression here this IRC channel is like an alternate reality composed of kids who were brought up on 'my first turing complete formal language specitication' in the crib < 1264277403 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1264277441 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analysing stuff instantly is a distinct skill from analysing stuff properly though < 1264277503 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true but "research shows" (waves hand) that in general, smarter people 'think faster' - even to the level of physical reflexes, i believe < 1264277567 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we shrink everyone by a factor of 2, we well all have on average IQ 800, because the cubic scale factor < 1264277598 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the same time, though, it is true that "other research shows" (waves other hand) that "innate talent" is a much worse predictor of successful outcome than sustained effort and concentration < 1264277656 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking if intelligence, have people here taken IQ tests? < 1264277657 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of < 1264277663 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for decades < 1264277690 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IQ goes down as you get older (i.e. bigger, so the distance between neurons gets further and you think slower) < 1264277734 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure that's a physiological truth and not the punchline of a joke? < 1264277740 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find both plausible < 1264277847 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the definition of IQ i saw on mensa does seem to be about actual speed of neurons and not so much actual problem solving skill < 1264277855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)))) < 1264277938 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i took the test on their page, i'm pretty sure anyone can reach the "top %1 of population", the upper limit of their web test, if they've played flash games < 1264277948 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the subject of high-IQ, anyone here ever run into Chris Langan and his CTMU theory on the web? in the past few years he seems to have decided, somewhat oddly in my view, to become culturally affiliated with the awfulness of "creation science" < 1264278053 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1264278077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cognitive Theoretical Model of the Universe < 1264278137 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks compilcated < 1264278147 0 :madbr!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1264278147 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, sadly id say hes mostly degenerated into pseudoscience < 1264278164 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who < 1264278180 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty obvious that it's pseudoscience by the rainbow
's < 1264278218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the IQ for some of these idiot-savants is < 1264278228 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious by the title < 1264278232 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's lots of pseudoscience around. Sometimes it even involves serious studies, where everything goes well until one would need to draw the conclusions... < 1264278275 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think CTMU is actually more substantial than it seems, and actually borders on being decent *philosophy*, but i fail to understand why he would present it as a 'scientific theory' < 1264278289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about that John Conway guy? < 1264278306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's he doing these days < 1264278308 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt that game of life conway? < 1264278330 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe" < 1264278336 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1264278337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jump to: navigation, search < 1264278337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The free will theorem of John H. Conway and Simon B. Kochen states that, if we have a certain amount of "free will", then, subject to certain assumptions, so must some elementary particles." < 1264278338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1264278377 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a lot less quacky now that I read it on wiki rather than Times or The Sun whereever I heard about it first < 1264278406 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is postmodern or something < 1264278441 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematically, the theoretical framework of Intelligent Design" < 1264278492 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when i found langan's stuff a few years ago, he hadn't thrown in with those guys, we was still mostly claiming to be extending traditional hard science < 1264278533 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say he couldn't meet their standards for publication and found the ID people were considerably more welcoming < 1264278558 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you cannot describe the universe completely with any accuracy unless you're willing to admit that it's both physical and mental in nature" < 1264278590 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In conjunction with his ideas, Langan has claimed that "you can prove the existence of God, the soul and an afterlife, using mathematics." < 1264278597 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quoting wikiped) < 1264278635 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, im kinda surprised CTMU survived General Notability Guidelines - although i guess it sneaks in on Langan's coattails because he had some popular media attention as world's highest IQ man < 1264278687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what IRC does Elizer Yudkowsky go to? < 1264278727 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there's a lesswrong IRC < 1264278781 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah this is obvious Quack < 1264278841 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, he speculates on that kind of stuff, ok, but does he do real world experiments? < 1264278855 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back around 1999 his 'mega foundation' was started basically as the result of huge flame wars stirred up by his attempting to promote CTMU is various ultra-high-iq internet forums < 1264278862 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was how i found about him < 1264278889 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his wife later took it upon herself (i believe) to delete a lot of discussion of his ideas on a wiki I participated in, and replace it with copy-pasted chunks of his essays < 1264278936 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kf51FpBuXQ <- totally fails at this < 1264279039 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it sounds a lot like a lot of postmodernist stuff < 1264279102 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And from the website it seems to be mostly convoluted language, and not enough claims that can be tested < 1264279117 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does everything need to be testible? < 1264279148 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264279189 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :karlpopper.jpg < 1264279255 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't test any nonconstructive existence proofs < 1264279316 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm that reminds me of the argument i started up here months ago about whether or not the axiom of choice has implications for physics < 1264279349 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :miss: well, if it's not testable, then it's going to be hard to build a bomb out of it < 1264279356 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other neat technological stuff < 1264279421 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it's not testable, who knows if it's true or false? < 1264279428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's testible it's not ture < 1264279430 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true* < 1264279484 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, often it just says that your approximation rule is good enough in conditions X,Y, up to Z decimals yeah < 1264279514 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that often leads to interesting real world applications still < 1264279661 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice vide othough < 1264279663 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's sure better than vaguely philosophical papers that are mostly obfuscated language < 1264280018 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It means using language as a mathematical paradigm unto itself." < 1264280046 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ho man, like, yeah that's a perfect recipe for disaster < 1264280195 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ok basically this guy is going to use the properties of language to try to gain insights on the nature of the univers < 1264280196 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1264280260 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O lol < 1264280288 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah looking at the paper, this thing reminds me of time cube < 1264280382 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: why would it have? < 1264280422 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: digging into this issue, i discovered that several proofs of various aspects of quantum mechanics rely on mathematics that assumes AOC < 1264280455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv, I think that's a really interesting question btw < 1264280477 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I don't know anything beyond high school physics so I don't have anything else to add :P < 1264280480 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://s.engramstudio.com/src/unreal.png this is in his paper < 1264280515 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that explains everything! < 1264280635 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1264280636 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: so some models of the universe that are supported by observation only have the observed properties if AoC is assumed? < 1264280641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using that for everything now. < 1264280670 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I contest that that diagram cannot make sense, in any situation. < 1264280677 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: honestly, im not competent to answer that < 1264280686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, I contest that that diagram /could/ make sense in any situation, rather. < 1264280689 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tired* < 1264280716 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see, i'm just wondering if it's conjectures that require AoC, very plausible conjectures, or some actual stuff the model explains. < 1264280718 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the material I found doing research on this, the physicists seemed to get pretty cautious about making any statement about the nature of the relationship between mathematical truth and models, theory, and observation < 1264280776 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldnt say if the way AoC was used mathematically in the relevant proofs of 'how stuff works' quantum mechanically would imply that the physics of a 'non-aoc' universe would be different < 1264280805 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see... it's just in my experience most stuff between very concrete and very formal get very vague and very meaningless pretty fast < 1264280819 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1264280821 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1264280826 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is there isnt anything undefined involved in this, i dont think < 1264280844 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, aoc is well defined, and how to get predictions out of the quantum mechanical model is well defined < 1264280855 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin type question I dont think < 1264280889 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it's the observability that's the key issue here, what if other plausible conjectureshad been made given some other non-conflicting axiom < 1264280898 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*conjectures had < 1264280902 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally, I concentrate on more real world stuff < 1264280915 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real world is made of quantum particles, last I checked < 1264280931 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "how do you simulate a violin" (on a computer) < 1264281008 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: reality is relative, atoms are only real to the extent of how well they model the world we observe. most people are good at imagining small things combining into big things. most people aren't good at imagining... quantum stuff. < 1264281022 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my point of view < 1264281037 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, atoms are a very useful concept < 1264281046 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I completely agree - as a matter of fact, I like to point out that a 'car' is entirely a theoretical entity, because you are never going to find 'this is atom is part of Car X' written on any of its component atoms < 1264281055 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum particles are what the world is made of if you're a physicist, they are made of particles that aren't quantum, otherwise < 1264281066 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 'cars' arent real, they are just an abstraction we apply to certain chunks of mater < 1264281071 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr use string theory! :P < 1264281092 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys are overthinking it < 1264281097 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cars are basically spheres with uniform mass? < 1264281104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. how do you simulate a violin < 1264281142 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you try to do an accurate model of how the thing vibrates < 1264281202 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then solve the navier-stokes equations for how the waves propagate in the atmosphere < 1264281224 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's more of a string problem < 1264281227 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard about these phonons once, are there models of sound that involve particles? < 1264281245 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sound is almost always modelled as waves < 1264281248 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and excuse my not knowing anything, i just really don't know anything about physics < 1264281269 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound doesn't have quantum duality :D < 1264281291 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it would seem weird given we have a rather good theory of how sound works, based on the wave theory < 1264281298 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah violins don't have many vibration modes in air < 1264281307 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've heard about phonons, i guess i could just wp those < 1264281326 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was making a joke about solving navier-stokes for the atmospheric vibrations, obviously grossly impractical < 1264281335 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard of a good sound simulation using phonons < 1264281354 0 :scarf!n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264281390 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you have another problem: It turns out that the usual model of friction completely breaks down at "high" frequencies < 1264281392 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: i got that < 1264281394 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, stuff like 'Whenever someone exhorts you to "think outside the box", they usually, for your convenience, point out exactly where "outside the box" is located. Isn't it funny how nonconformists all dress the same...' < 1264281396 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like, 200hz high) < 1264281415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's enjoyable to read this because I go "hah! I knew this already!" < 1264281415 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and friction is super important in violin simulation < 1264281430 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie we don't actually really know how friction works < 1264281440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then wonder if just sitting reading all these sorts of things is worthless < 1264281459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, this channel is a good place to try to find new boxes to think outside < 1264281475 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: yeah im certainly no expert but ive read that there are still quite a few open problems in condensed matter physics because you get chaotic behaviors a lot < 1264281480 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i've had that exact thought, i've just always thought the concept of "thinking outside the box" is ridiculous; then again i'm a mathematician, not a philosopher... < 1264281492 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(formal systems vs ideas) < 1264281504 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: the mathematical equivalent is trying to find incorrect assumptions you made < 1264281517 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not referring to the content of the statement, just the effect it has on me < 1264281541 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes, and i tend to get the point, and start talking about something else. < 1264281553 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, well, the theory I've studied is linguistics < 1264281564 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is just a theory .. < 1264281566 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and basically, language is butt hard to analyze < 1264281580 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie we haven't really figured it out yet < 1264281594 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and theories on it tend to end up turning in circles < 1264281647 0 :tombom!n=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1264281647 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an amazing 'scots philosophical monograph' which is several hundred pages of dense symbolic logic attempting to understand what is 'really meant' by statements like 'I think John believes in Y' < 1264281664 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1264281683 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's definitely a turning in circles thing < 1264281731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly should go do the homework robozzle prevented me from doing yesterday < 1264281741 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofozzle < 1264281749 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't know how languages go from symbols to meaning < 1264281751 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR play robozzle, both alternatives sound good < 1264281769 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't really know what meaning is anyways < 1264281780 0 :Sgeo__!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264281828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of philosophy, do you believe people actually 'understand' things, that there's a fundamental difference between memorizing something, and understanding it? < 1264281846 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1264281855 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do believe we all have our own (implicit) models of the world, and we sort of understand things once we can fit new information into that framework < 1264281855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok absolutely < 1264281863 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i believe it's just a structured way to memorize things < 1264281867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in mathematics, for example calculus < 1264281869 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also that sounds like it would turn in rounds < 1264281882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine being able to differentiate things, but not knowing what a function is < 1264281890 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you memorize the thing, and you memorize rules for how to apply the information, you keep them close < 1264281891 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stranger things happened in class < 1264281953 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe i just know the exact definition of a function (rote), and i have a pretty good ability to visualize mappings between sets, and i have a few rules for knowing how the speficic picture i have in my head translates into formal logic, which i can then check by pattern matching < 1264281971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then maybe you could argue the people that don't know what a function is have some kind of deeper understanding about what a differential algebra is ;/ < 1264282032 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-166-170-104.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1264282091 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264282208 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is, of course, a sort of feeling that i "understand" some things, and don't understand some other things; also this isn't always correlated with my ability to solve different types of problems < 1264282229 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really i'm pretty sure it's just a meaningless feeling, whose evolutionary purpose is to direct my attention to things i need more information about < 1264282242 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1264282278 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mean meaningless. < 1264282281 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do i mean... < 1264282334 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's sort of obvious, "understanding" just means we think we understand. < 1264282352 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why my favourite part of linguistics is phonetics... no messed up meaning stuff < 1264282368 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1264282374 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate philosophy < 1264282383 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it soft or hard science? < 1264282392 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think understanding is real < 1264282425 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, phoetics is more hard because it has hard enough data < 1264282438 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe my point is i think people's models of their own brain usually have consciousness be a sort of black box, with "understanding" being when something gets into consciousness and becomes usable < 1264282442 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other parts tend to be soft though < 1264282453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to feel like I understand a proof in most cases it is a case of producing some mental image which lives through the whole process < 1264282455 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ESPECIALLY anything that touches meaning < 1264282466 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the twisting circle with colored dots around it for fermats little theorem < 1264282482 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas i see understanding as the process of getting the brain ready to do a certain type of thinking getting near finish < 1264282486 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of a complicated sentence < 1264282570 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really that's a trivial thought too, and one i just saw on lesswrong, people tend to black-box stuff they don't understand. < 1264282610 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there are just 7 deep philosophical thoughts, and everything else is just them in less pure form. < 1264282619 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i'm going to call this seppuritanism < 1264282625 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you, really have to math now -> < 1264282654 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what math?? < 1264282673 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combinatorics of words and coding theory < 1264282684 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1264282699 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1264282746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combinatorics of words is what i linked here last week, this weeks exercises are just as ridiculous; coding theory's second exercise set seems to involve massive binary matrices, so to summarize, no risk of my evening being interesting. < 1264282781 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you do it on the computer? < 1264282801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we rarely have two exercises about the same concept < 1264282807 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is university < 1264282812 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264282813 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264282854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay we can have entire problem sets about the same concept, but i mean it's rare i could get more than one or two exercises done using the same program < 1264282870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless of course i was clever and used some sort of sensible programming language that understand matrices and shit < 1264282873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i am not clever < 1264282881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would use python, and program everything from scratch < 1264282882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J!!!! < 1264282887 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah J is awesome < 1264282899 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol they want me to use matlab :( < 1264282911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know J exists < 1264282916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1264282924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people that give me problems to solve < 1264282942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll take that as a yes. < 1264283000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a specific matlab course in the physics dep i think, and a few about mathematica, but we rarely have more number crunching than 5*6 < 1264283009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean other than those courses < 1264283106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1264283117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems you stopped me from going < 1264283120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll retry now < 1264283121 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1264283125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1264284295 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1264285569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1264286029 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1264286411 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes for food < 1264288277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for no good reason, I have created a void_ptr a ptr class... So now I can pretend C++ has C pointer semantics. < 1264288427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/void_ptr a/void_ptr and/ < 1264288454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"C++: because operator overloading lets you abuse the type system!" < 1264288511 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you should see Boost, it's hilarious < 1264288518 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reminds me of the good aspects of Perl < 1264288538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264288603 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1264288623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/hTGA < 1264288627 0 :augur!n=augur@173-10-169-66-BusName-washingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1264288648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eff you, C++. I want my implicit casts to/from void* back. So I GOTS THEM. < 1264288649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264289050 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i like that, but why are you working in c++ if you don't like its type handling? < 1264289089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: No good reason. < 1264289098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not intending to actually *use* that header, BTW. :P < 1264289099 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just mentions btw, this is #esoteric :P < 1264289118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: C++ is an esoteric language. < 1264289125 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, so it was simply created as an exercise < 1264289126 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my point < 1264289139 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, you guys are all familiar with the original Bourne shell #defines, i assume? < 1264289148 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't < 1264289149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :template operator T // INSANITY! < 1264289150 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not < 1264289176 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, lemme find the link, this is great stuff, really awesome late 70s hack at the core of one of the Essential Programs, the bourne shell < 1264289276 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HERE: http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/mac.h.html < 1264289328 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly steven bourne liked his ALGOL and wanted his C code to read like algol < 1264289349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ugh*. < 1264289356 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1264289382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty cool < 1264289383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His definition of max assumes no side effects, incidentally... < 1264289385 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that bit of madness is right at the core of version 7 UNIX, the most influential os distribution fo all time probably < 1264289416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh is famous for that header file < 1264289477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: okay i give up, what does http://s.engramstudio.com/src/unreal.png mean < 1264289489 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't got a clue :P < 1264289510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it was madbr who linked it < 1264289576 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1264289582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've taken a few looks every now and then < 1264289620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can't < 1264289624 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't. < 1264289838 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that picture is, but I assume it is just a bad way of expressing "the map is not the territory" < 1264289915 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1264290032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1264290400 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1264290446 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwat < 1264290760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The free will theorem of John H. Conway and Simon B. Kochen states that, if we have a certain amount of "free will", then, subject to certain assumptions, so must some elementary particles." < 1264290802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... Philotes? < 1264290833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intuition: this is an actual theorem (it _does_ have conway on board after all), but whether it applies to any actual definition of free will your own philosophy would ascribes to, would probably depend. < 1264290841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ascribe < 1264290869 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah sure, I think I just got the wrong idea about it because I read it first in some tabloid < 1264290871 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, the problem of how to give any scientific definition to the concept of 'free will' is pretty serious imo, and it really bugs me < 1264290909 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have 'deterministic' and we have 'random', but exactly 'free will' even means is pretty damn hard to express in the terms of rationalist materialism < 1264290930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are after all philosophies on what free will means that doesn't require the universe to be nondeterministic at all - or would even consider nondeterminism to make it _worse_ < 1264290942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*don't < 1264290979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't really have any freedom if things are just random... < 1264291021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess that's part of what you are alluding to