00:03:56 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:05:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:06:25 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:09:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:10:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:10:35 -!- cpressey has left (?). 00:11:45 -!- SimonRC has joined. 00:23:23 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:24:25 d'oh, I'm missing pieces, this isn't even TC 00:56:28 -!- cheater4 has joined. 00:57:06 -!- cheater3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:12:03 -!- Pthing has joined. 03:58:04 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:00:37 -!- olsner has joined. 04:01:51 -!- jcp has joined. 04:09:41 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:11:45 -!- jcp has joined. 04:27:06 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:15:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:43:12 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:44:13 -!- Pthing has joined. 05:45:06 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:47:21 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:04:09 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:08:39 -!- jcp has changed nick to javawizard. 06:29:16 -!- tombom has joined. 06:42:50 -!- javawizard has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 06:44:06 -!- jcp has joined. 06:58:36 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:01:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:33:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:49:40 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:49:41 hehe, they're doing something with the pipes and absolutely no water should go in the drain; i've already managed to use the sink twice and flush the toilet once 07:55:25 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:55:57 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 07:56:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:06 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:40 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:02:47 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:07:03 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:09:38 -!- Pthing has joined. 08:11:10 oklopol: You literally give a crap about their instructions, then. 08:16:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:18:24 actually it was pee, if you must know 08:18:31 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:18:40 i probably would've realized during a longer operation 08:21:51 In retrospect, I'm not sure I actually wanted to start a conversation about this. 08:24:26 in this context, i'll interpret "retrospect" as "looking at ass". 08:24:54 although i guess that makes no sense 08:27:08 -!- lereah_ has joined. 08:27:08 With all retrospect due, I really wasn't looking at your ass. 08:28:35 it's fine 08:29:34 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:30:37 I'm going to have to take your word for that, though I'm sure it is. 08:30:42 Does linux have a standard way to read djvu files? 08:30:48 Or do I need to get one 08:31:25 I don't know of any "standard" way but viewers do exist 08:31:41 you want to get a way from here? 08:32:31 Not sure I can get one though 08:32:34 I be at zerk 08:32:37 werk* 08:32:47 Evince, which is everywhere, has some support for it, I think. 08:32:50 Not sure you can install anything on that computer 08:34:14 At least djvu's mentioned on http://projects.gnome.org/evince/ and Evince's probably installed on anything Gnomish. 08:35:15 I'm on scientific linux, is it gnomish? 08:35:37 Yeah, I think it is 08:35:48 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:37:09 Well, I tried typing evince on the console and it didn"t work, and that's about all my knowledge of linux 08:37:16 How do I open it? 08:38:54 If it's there, "evince" in a terminal should run it. You may be out of luck there. 08:39:05 Balls. 08:39:27 i tried finding an online converter to pdf but no luck 08:39:39 Can someone convert the file to pdf for me? 08:39:59 It is http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/Quantum%20Mechanics%20And%20Path%20Integrals%20-%20R.%20Feynman,%20A.%20Hibbs.djvu 08:40:17 KDE's "Okular" supposedly supports djvu too. 08:40:19 ooh math 08:41:11 No, SCIENCE! 08:41:20 (it are physics)\ 08:41:53 hmm oh quantum mechanics 08:41:54 oklopol: I'm at the lectures of a course from the maths department at the moment; so technically this is math too. (But it's about numeric methods, so maybe it doesn't count.) 08:42:01 i just read blah blah path integrals 08:42:30 ofc quantum mechanics is certainly more interesting than path integrals 08:42:46 It is pretty neato torpedo 08:42:50 See, the concept is 08:42:59 fizzie: yell "woohoo math!" 08:43:06 A particle in this theory actually travels on EVERY POSSIBLE PATH 08:43:40 so how exactly does the path integral come in? 08:44:16 and does it travel in R^3? 08:44:18 Well, you have to do a sum over all path to find the probabilities of finding the particle here or there 08:45:22 i guess we could take the space of all continuous paths, and give it a natural measure obtained by some sort of integral average 08:45:34 "sum over all path" isn't specific enough 08:45:54 Yeah, it is rarely easy to find 08:46:07 I'm doing one right now, for instance 08:46:32 i mean you can't sum over all the paths, there's an uncountable number of them 08:46:35 You decompose time in little increments, and for the paths, you do all the possible turns you can do 08:46:42 Then you take the limit 08:47:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:49:00 all the possible turns is still an uncountable amount; and is this in R^3? 08:49:15 Iunno 08:49:21 Here's the example 08:49:27 you don't know or you don't know what R^3 is? 08:49:39 It is in R^3 08:49:50 A particle goes at the speed of light in 1D 08:50:10 At every time increment, it can do a turn 08:50:29 yeah in 1D you can do it combinatorially 08:50:42 So to go from point A to point B, you sum over all the possible turns at every increment of tine 08:50:57 In the end it's ~ an exponential 08:51:15 (by the way can someone convert it to pdf) 08:51:41 what i would do is google "dvu to pdf" 08:51:48 I did 08:51:56 But I can't install softwares here 08:52:12 well and "online converter" ofc, i never install anything 08:53:09 nothing on the first few pages 08:53:22 i guess no one's invented a converter 08:56:12 (that is why I ask) 08:57:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:59:45 hehe, they're doing something with the pipes and absolutely no water should go in the drain; i've already managed to use the sink twice and flush the toilet once 08:59:53 never trust a human to change his habits 09:00:06 or think about what he's actually doing 09:00:53 i was thinking about teaching math to innocent children 09:01:15 _evil_ math i assume 09:01:53 it's not the math that's evil, it just makes humans evil 09:02:04 MWAHAHAH 09:02:23 it turns them into rational, uncaring beasts 09:03:10 Even irrational numbers? 09:03:38 it's a bit complex 09:04:21 i think it's natural enough 09:04:27 we need more number fields 09:04:42 ...with funny names 09:04:44 oklopol: what a surreal idea 09:06:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:07:58 -!- augur has joined. 09:08:44 There's plenty of number sets 09:09:00 Constructible, computable, compressible, definable 09:09:22 and how are those names funny 09:09:41 that's the problem with contemporary mathematics, things aren't given funny names 09:09:59 and what's a contructible number 09:10:11 ohhh 09:10:22 right ofc i know those 09:11:13 Also algebraic and transcendental 09:11:16 Shit like dat 09:12:52 what's the definition of a compressible number? 09:13:13 i think you have to be careful or it might not be a field 09:13:32 A number you can write a finite sized program for 09:13:52 oh. then what's the definition of computable 09:13:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:14:00 i thought you'd have to be able to compress it 09:14:16 Lemme check 09:14:50 Hm, I might remember the wrong name for it 09:15:46 no, finite sized program applies to compressible strings, not real numbers, i think 09:15:56 and the program must be shorter than the string 09:18:25 i wonder if there are puns involving Z[sqrt(2)] 09:18:37 compressible number doesn't seem to be a real term 09:18:46 or Z(sqrt(2)) if we want to emphasize fieldness i suppose 09:19:07 It might have been incompressible 09:20:12 no better 09:20:39 http://homepages.cwi.nl/~paulv/schedule06/intro.ps 09:20:57 if i don't put quotes around, google wants to give me (un)compressible flows instead 09:21:33 * oerjan doesn't do postscript 09:22:53 Unrecoverable error: configurationerror in setpagedevice 09:22:54 Operand stack: 09:22:54 false --nostringval-- 09:22:54 Failed to open device or install ViewerPreProcess hook: returns -26 09:23:02 me neither, it seems 09:23:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it). 09:28:19 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 09:42:40 oklopol : http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/9302097v1 09:42:51 If you want the path integral mathematically 09:43:04 It describes it a bit 09:43:16 With the hilarious wiener measure 09:43:30 ah, now there's a funny name 09:45:04 It was waiting for you 09:45:35 ":This calculus in functional space (“Wiener measure”) attracted 09:45:36 several mathematicians" 09:45:42 They love wiener measures 09:47:41 "this file is damaged and could not be viewed" 09:47:43 :P 09:47:55 Nigga you got file proble;s 10:09:16 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:30:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:44:22 -!- iamcal has joined. 10:45:48 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:46:24 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:46:29 -!- comex has joined. 11:49:05 -!- MizardX has joined. 12:34:19 How can I check what Linux I have? 12:35:30 "lsb_release -a" if it happens to support that LSB thing, but not all do. 12:35:54 k 12:36:05 If it does, the "Description" field is most likely a human-readable sensible thing. 12:36:29 Scientific Linux 12:36:32 Damn it 12:36:43 I guess it's close to some other linux 12:36:46 Let's check 12:37:28 It seems to be at least slightly related to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. 12:38:15 It is a free and open source operating system based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux and aims to be 100% compatible with and based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux. 12:40:27 You talk like a free, web-based, collaborative, multilingual encyclopedia project. 12:40:51 I sure do 12:40:56 Forgot the quotes 12:41:09 I don't like to type too much here, the keyboard is qwerty 12:41:49 ugh, who still uses qwerty 12:42:09 well i do but you know that's not relevant. 12:42:17 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz ,.-?!";: -- there, you can copy-paste most of the things you'll ever need out of that; no need for typing. 12:42:24 France does not 12:42:58 Visited CERN once, the azerty keyboards in the terminals there were confusing. 12:43:29 isn't azerty even stupider 12:43:58 Well, confirmed : I can't install a software here without admin priviledges 12:48:24 they're drilling in harmonic major second outside, i love it 12:49:21 drill baby drill 12:49:24 haha, a tritone xD 12:49:57 i can't concentrate with all this beautiful music around me 12:50:26 Put on some shitty music then 12:51:15 or i could just not concentrate 12:56:58 Debian package single-line descriptions are sometimes less than informative; what'd you expect from "gaia - interface to the planet"? 12:57:17 Some Pandora shit 12:57:28 Just plug in your ponytail 12:57:50 It is, in fact, "an Earth viewer that lets you navigate around the globe and zoom into almost any place". 12:58:02 I'm not sure how that's interfacing with the planet, but. 12:59:19 okay what am i wearing 12:59:42 well okay that's not fair, i'm not outside 13:01:54 It would be much more interfacingy if I could also change what you're wearing. 13:02:06 hmm, true 13:02:28 that sounds really scary after your questions about my ass 13:02:46 or how did the conversation go again 13:22:23 -!- deschutron has joined. 13:22:48 RIP 13:24:45 java.sun.com is there, but they changed the colours, and it looks less welcoming. 14:08:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:49:33 -!- MissPiggy has joined. 15:07:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:23:31 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:33:22 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 15:40:39 -!- augur has joined. 15:52:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:00:09 deschutron: Soon it'll forward to oracle.com/ogppl , and be renamed to the Oracle General Purpose Programming Language 16:00:45 Also, Solaris will be renamed to Oracle System Services 16:01:12 And they'll try to rename JavaScript to OracleScript 16:01:55 Then they'll rename VirtualBox to Oracle Virtual System and MySQL to the Oracle Database Sy--no wait. 16:02:55 MySQL will be renamed Oracle Database Demo :P 16:03:44 Can't MySQL just be forked? 16:03:53 Sure, but why? PostgreSQL is better. 16:04:15 Easier on systems already using MySQL? 16:04:34 I'm sure Oracle provides a very handy upgrade path :P 16:04:41 "Oracle General Purpose Programming Language" haha 16:05:49 yeah they could make a fork called OurSQL or something 16:05:53 Hey WOT plugin on Chrome: I love how long it takes you to warn me that I'm on a distrusted site 16:06:31 MySQL fans, that is 16:07:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:10:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:10:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:11:00 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:11:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:20:53 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:33:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:33:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:35:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:36:24 -!- deschutron has left (?). 16:44:45 -!- scarf has joined. 16:53:45 phew 16:54:09 1.5 dm snow during the night to today, then when I got home, another dm of snow 16:55:51 also: open and mostly flat landscape around here and strong winds 16:56:04 so really really bad roads today 16:58:02 AnMaster: who measures in decimetres? 16:58:27 IMO, 0.15m, 15cm, and 150mm would all be more plausible units there 17:02:04 scarf, err, dm isn't all that uncommon in Sweden 17:02:33 as in "a few decimetres" or such. 17:02:54 scarf, oh and there is a class 1 warning for this part of the country 17:03:06 (note: higher numbers are worse, it goes up to 3) 17:03:39 hmm, 25cm of snow would be enough for a severe weather warning here in the UK 17:03:46 but then, we're less used to large amounts of snow 17:04:20 Sweden. 17:04:23 Sweden is so weird. 17:04:33 scarf, also, have you ever been traveling in an articulated bus that met another articulated bus on a already narrow street made yet more narrow due to the roughly 1.5 meter high heaps of snow on the sidewalks (also they extended a fair bit out in the street) 17:04:50 scarf, really, this winter has been unusually bad 17:04:52 -!- tombom has joined. 17:04:54 no, articulated busses are rare enough here as they are, and I don't think I've ever seen two at once 17:04:59 *buses 17:05:15 scarf, well same line, so two buses on the same line met 17:05:23 really they had a hard time managing (I was in one) 17:05:55 scarf, anyway what about non-articulated buses. 17:06:15 AnMaster: oh, I see those all the time 17:06:23 the record was something like 20 at once, that was a fun day 17:06:34 scarf, I meant: the above scenario for other buses... 17:06:45 or maybe you don't get enough snow to have a street made so narrow due to snow... 17:06:48 basically, something had fallen off the roof of one of the big new skyscrapers in Birmingham and landed on one of the most major roundabouts there 17:06:55 heh 17:07:02 they had to close the roundabout as a result, while they did safety checks 17:07:19 and pretty much every car driver avoided the city centre that day, but the busses didn't 17:07:26 and they somehow managed to all be clumped in a really huge line 17:07:35 nothing for half an hour, then 20 at once, on a huge range of different routes 17:08:33 right, but that is still not quite like the scenario I described. Also it was snowing heavily at that point and the visibility was poor. 17:09:16 scarf, oh and skyscraper, how many stories does it need to be that 17:09:22 rather than just a tall house 17:09:37 AnMaster: not sure, I think it's a relative term 17:09:51 but it's one of the tallest buildings in Birmingham, many tens of storeys 17:09:53 *stories 17:10:35 could 15 stories or so be a sky-scraper anywhere? 17:10:42 that is about the tallest around here I think 17:11:08 and here = not just this town, but also the city a bit away 17:11:31 in this town, I guess around 5 stories, maybe 7 in some of those newer houses... 17:12:52 not sure 17:13:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:13:55 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:14:44 dammit no oklopol 17:15:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: RIP sun.com | 16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 17:16:06 There's something I've wondered for a while but never got clear on. If I compile with "gcc -ansi", does that necessarily preclude using any and all POSIX calls? 17:16:21 scarf, btw, the snow outside the university reached above my knees outside one of the doors I had to reach 17:16:30 due to the wind blowing it up against the house 17:16:39 not nice 17:16:40 cpressey: the header files take clues from the compiler as to which POSIX calls they should include 17:16:52 oerjan, bad weather in norway too? 17:16:58 by default, I think gcc tells them to use a GNUish set; if you say -ansi, it tells them to use an ANSI set 17:17:04 oerjan, some 2.5 dm or so since yesterday here 17:17:07 and still snowing 17:17:08 but you can write your own #defines in order to select one yourself 17:17:40 AnMaster: no new snow here, although below -10 temperatures, no wind to speak of. i don't really call that bad... 17:17:42 scarf: Thanks. 17:17:56 oerjan, well strong wind here... 17:18:09 cpressey: man 7 feature_test_macros describes the whole mess 17:18:26 oerjan, official warning (lowest level) from SHMI and such 17:19:06 i saw some warnings on yr.no in weeks previous, although i think trondheim was mostly missed 17:19:26 scarf: I'd rather not get into that :) I guess my question becomes, is there any sanctioned way in -ansi (-std=c89) to sleep for a given number of milliseconds? 17:19:39 oerjan, lucky you 17:19:43 no, milliseconds are too fine-grained, and that's actually impossible in DOS 17:19:54 (the minimum sleep length is 1/19.2 seconds in DOS, for some reason I don't fully understand) 17:20:08 we did have approx -20 temperatures for a short while, though 17:20:11 oerjan, fun yr.no claims it isn't snowing around here any longer 17:20:18 looking out I have to strongly disagree 17:20:32 true, it's not always accurate 17:20:50 oerjan, well, they could update it with current data as well 17:20:56 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:57 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:58 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 17:20:58 scarf: I believe that's the frequency of one of the timer chips from the original PC architecture. But anyway -- OK, I might have to take a different approach. 17:21:11 oerjan, also it is generally better than most other ones I know of 17:21:18 thus when it isn't better it is fun to poke fun at it 17:21:21 if you want a guaranteed millisecond sleep, you could require POSIX 2001 (that's #define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200112L) and use select 17:21:46 oh do you look at yr.no often too? :D 17:21:50 or you could require SUSv2 compatibility (#define _XOPEN_SOURCE 500) and use usleep 17:21:52 (the minimum sleep length is 1/19.2 seconds in DOS, for some reason I don't fully understand) <-- can't you change it iirc 17:21:54 scarf: I don't really need for it to be guaranteed. Actually, I don't really need for it to be compiled with -ansi, except for a perverse sense of pride. 17:21:57 setting the PIT to a higher freq 17:22:00 or something such 17:22:30 it's in cooperation with the norwegian meteorological institute, you'd imagine they had _some_ clue 17:22:35 cpressey: if going for maximum portability, you could abstract out the sleep to a separate file and have it with a bunch of ifdefs for sleeps on differnt platforms 17:22:40 -!- fungot has joined. 17:22:41 -!- ineiros has joined. 17:22:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:23:11 oerjan, nah, they just check the weather stone 17:23:20 *different 17:23:28 scarf: Not maximum portability, but yes, I'm thinking now to just #ifdef on whether -ansi was specified. If so, approximate sleeps to the nearest second ('cos I think C89 has something for that) 17:23:41 yep, time 17:24:12 :D 17:24:30 Then I can say "compiles with -ansi -pedantic" and satisfy my sick sense of pride in that. Just need to discover that that define is. Whee! 17:24:46 cpressey: #ifdef __STRICT_ANSI__ 17:24:52 the feature test macros work both ways round! 17:25:11 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:25:12 And scarf will even volunteer that information. This must be my lucky day! 17:25:14 although, I think that's a glibc definition 17:25:22 which is a really perverse sense of portability 17:25:47 (if you wanted to be less perverse, you'd instead check that, say, _POSIX_C_SOURCE /wasn't/ set) 17:27:20 Yes. 17:27:34 -!- cheater has joined. 17:32:01 cpressey, -ansi is C89 iirc? 17:32:19 AnMaster: Yup. 17:32:28 cpressey, so what is wrong with C99 17:32:37 The manpage even says it's equivalent to "-std=c89". 17:32:53 don't claim it jumped the shark, it didn't. The difference to C89 aren't that large 17:32:54 AnMaster: Nothing's "wrong" with C99, I just don't want to require it. 17:33:01 cpressey, meh 17:33:15 No, it didn't jump the shark :) 17:33:20 everything supports the most useful subset of C99 these days. Windows doesn't count (and on windows icc does it) 17:33:24 (and mingw) 17:33:27 (and so on) 17:33:51 AnMaster: I guess you did not see me type "sick sense of pride" twice above? 17:33:56 hardly anything supports all of C99, though 17:34:05 scarf, sure, complex numbers thingy and such 17:34:17 AnMaster: I know you dislike python 3, but at least it exists 17:34:19 C99 doesn't, really 17:34:25 it's just a standard that only half caught on 17:34:32 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 17:34:38 "most useful subset" = stdint.h, restrict, stdbool.h, inline, // comments, for (int i ...) and a few such things 17:34:50 oh and .fieldname = foo initialisers 17:34:54 -!- rodgort has joined. 17:35:23 Hey, at least there's only one C99. There's like three RSS 2.0's. 17:35:59 there are two C89s, though 17:36:01 well, C89 and C90 17:36:10 hilariously, they're identical except for the section numbering 17:36:14 which makes them rather hard to quote 17:36:32 scarf, you just *love* to mention that right? 17:36:48 AnMaster: not massively, but it's worth mentioning in this context 17:36:50 I mean, I heard it so many times 17:36:53 from you 17:37:33 AnMaster: I don't think I've said it that many times (anyone care to grep the logs?), and it probably wasn't aimed at you each time 17:38:25 not aimed at at me every time no 17:38:54 scarf, also hard to grep for due to exact wording differing 17:41:15 actually about that amount of snow, other member of household got home, apparently I missed out on two rounds of clearing away the snow during the day. So add about 20 cm to that above... 17:42:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:42:15 scarf, so around 45 cm of snow then 17:42:24 that's a lot for one day 17:43:11 scarf, quite, 10-15 cm being more normal "lot of snow for one day" around here 17:44:45 this has been both the coldest and the snowiest winter for a long time 17:44:56 I think it even beat that amount some 5 years ago or so 17:51:47 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:06:21 -!- tombom has joined. 18:11:49 scarf, oh btw, about 40 cars has gone over the side of the roads in this . Due to the extremely slippery roads, partly caused by snow blowing across them. 18:25:14 is there a funge like befunge-93 but with inserting and removing rows/columns? 18:25:49 and is it tc? 18:26:45 cheater4: ooh, I wrote something a bit like that 18:26:52 now I'm trying to remember the name 18:26:55 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Shove 18:27:02 no, not that 18:27:03 'a bit'? 18:27:07 'splain 18:27:21 sprain your brain 18:27:22 lol 18:27:46 i sprain my brain when i'm reading the mysql manual. 18:27:57 cheater4, use postgresql 18:28:00 doesn't seem to be online, how strange 18:28:49 fuck sql and their non-deterministic totalitarian regime 18:29:06 Shove is conspicuously absent 18:29:07 scarf: just write it again, what could be so hard. :p 18:29:42 reference interp: http://pastebin.ca/1786097 18:29:47 strangely, I seem to never have written a spec 18:29:49 but I believe it's TC 18:30:45 aha 18:30:48 so it is shove after all? 18:30:53 yes, just not online 18:31:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:31:38 jesus christ perl 18:31:39 i hate perl 18:32:02 why? 18:32:28 why not? 18:32:36 i hate it because i don't know it. 18:32:40 if your having perl problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 programming problems but regex ain't one 18:32:46 isn't that good enough for you? 18:32:55 i don't have problems with regex 18:33:04 but RAP (regex ain't perl) 18:33:18 MissPiggy: that a quote? 18:33:22 yes 18:33:25 im rapping about perl 18:33:28 it's from an old blue song 18:33:31 blues 18:33:47 um i mean literally 18:33:51 no 18:33:53 it's modified 18:35:26 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:36:01 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:36:05 Hi :-) 18:36:10 i note that googling "if you're having perl problems" gives several relevant hits, but not with "regex" 18:37:09 cheater4, MissPiggy: to add some context to the above. in Swedish "rap" means "burp" (the verb form would be "att rapa" - "to burp") 18:37:11 i conclude that regexes _are_ a problem in perl ;D 18:37:28 There are rappers with guns after me 18:37:29 Enemies that want to make sure I'm dead 18:37:29 Rap critics that say, "he only cares about money and women" 18:38:24 we scandinavians frequently rape after dinner 18:39:38 heck if it's old _enough_, it may not have been a joke when it started 18:42:23 Is anyone planning to enter the CROBOTS tournament? http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php?link=91 18:45:39 Hmmm... not much BF_Joust action :-( 18:45:54 unfortunately not 18:48:42 GCC hates tail-call optimisation when longjmp is in use. 18:57:37 pikhq, tell me, what are you trying to do.... 18:57:40 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:57:49 -!- cheater99 has joined. 18:57:50 pikhq, are you trying to implement call/cc? 18:58:00 if so, arrgh, and that won't work after you returned 18:58:17 AnMaster: call/cc with continuation-passing style. 18:58:38 Meaning no returning. 18:58:51 It works, GCC just doesn't tail-call optimize it at all. 19:00:05 dude if you wantCWCC don't use longjmp 19:00:44 MissPiggy: But it works just fine if you write continuation-passing style. 19:00:56 This means that functions never, ever return. 19:01:05 pikhq, so longjmp() isn't tail call optimised? 19:01:36 AnMaster: No, functions *with them* aren't tail call optimised. 19:02:12 A tail call to fact becomes "call fact;addq $248, %rsp;ret" 19:02:51 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 19:02:58 And a tail call to longjmp becomes "call longjmp". 19:03:09 Not "longjmp and then ret", just 19:03:13 "call longjmp". 19:03:43 __attribute__((noreturn)) makes GCC fecking stupid. 19:03:56 pikhq, well longjmp doesn't return 19:04:07 AnMaster: Yes. "jmp longjmp" would be valid. 19:04:24 That would be a tail-call optimisation. 19:04:35 my guess is that longjmp is coded in such a way that it expects to be called by a call 19:04:36 pikhq, well since it restores the stack, the stack growing is not an issue 19:04:50 scarf, iirc longjmp is a builtin for gcc 19:04:59 AnMaster: It's not. 19:05:01 that is just iirc though 19:05:05 pikhq, hm? really? 19:05:05 I'm looking at the assembly. 19:05:12 pikhq: it's a bit of both 19:05:18 Builtins get handled differently. 19:05:26 it's special-cased, and so is a builtin in that sense (and you can call it __builtin_longjmp if you like) 19:05:32 but it ends up being turned into a cal in the asm 19:05:34 It's almost certainly part of libgcc.a. 19:05:36 ah it seems to be libc 19:05:37 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:05:41 *call 19:05:46 extern void _longjmp (struct __jmp_buf_tag __env[1], int __val) 19:05:46 __THROW __attribute__ ((__noreturn__)); 19:05:46 But it's not a builtin. 19:05:54 The builtins are invariably inlined. 19:06:08 pikhq, then what about libgcc 19:06:09 pikhq: it has properties of a builtin, and properties of a nonbuiltin 19:06:30 libgcc_s even 19:07:14 AnMaster: Mmm. 19:07:41 or maybe that is just for unsupported instructions kind of stuff (like 64-bit division on 32-bit x86) 19:07:55 scarf: Anyways. It seems that longjmp is part of libc. 19:08:30 I remember that with gcc-bf, it's in the libc, but has a crazy calling convention that's different from the normal one 19:08:31 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined. 19:08:33 hmm, or is that setjmp? 19:08:43 setjmp is the crazy one. 19:08:48 ah yes, it's setjmp that needs to be weird, longjmp can just be a normal function call 19:08:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:09:44 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:09:45 Among other things, it's declared __attribute__((returns_twice)). 19:10:26 that's a beautiful attribute 19:10:32 and not one that's officially documented, I think 19:10:36 besides, it can return more than twice 19:11:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:11:07 "Returns twice" just means "there is more than one return here. Make sure all registers are dead." 19:11:41 scarf, err, setjmp has the "return twice attribute" yeah 19:11:55 scarf, but what other strange calling convention would there be 19:12:16 gah, now I'm going to have to look at libbf/setjmp.s 19:12:17 and not one that's officially documented, I think <-- yes it is 19:12:25 I'm 100% sure I read the docs 19:12:50 pikhq, isn't vfork() also returns_twice? 19:12:54 not sure about fork() 19:12:57 AnMaster: Yeah. 19:13:03 even though it returns twice it happens in different processes 19:13:05 fork() isn't. 19:13:15 It returns twice, sure, but once per stack. 19:13:20 pikhq, but... on linux vfork() is just fork() iirc? 19:13:25 as in, it is mapped like that 19:13:32 AnMaster: not quite 19:13:33 since linux does COW anyway 19:13:39 vfork messes with the scheduling on linux 19:13:45 scarf, in what way? 19:13:49 such that the parent won't run until the child execs 19:13:54 well yes 19:13:55 AnMaster: No. 19:13:58 so you need a mutex or such 19:14:03 to make it wait 19:14:07 it's safe under the same circumstances as it's safe on non-cow systems 19:14:11 AnMaster: vfork() halts the parent until the child exits. 19:14:16 pikhq: or execs 19:14:20 which is the normal use-case 19:14:30 By any of: _exit, fatal signal, or exec. 19:14:38 pikhq, or _Exit() 19:14:41 scarf: The *sane* use-case, you mean. :P 19:14:54 pikhq: the *portable* use-case, I mean 19:15:03 because vform means something rather different on, say, SunOS 19:15:05 *vfork 19:15:05 AnMaster: _Exit is an alias for _exit. 19:15:15 pikhq: different standards 19:15:39 pikhq, well, _Exit is C99 too 19:15:43 _exit() is posix 19:16:06 Ah. 19:16:17 Really should look at the feature test macros in the man page more. 19:16:28 beats me why they didn't just use _exit() in C99 19:16:36 after all, the behaviour is identical 19:16:38 POSIX requires that _Exit be an alias for _exit. 19:16:45 well yes 19:17:05 But it makes no sense for the two of them to exist. 19:17:09 huh 19:17:11 wth 19:17:18 okay this is strange 19:17:24 3p comes before 2 in my man 19:17:25 on arch 19:17:33 reverse (and saner) way on ubuntu 19:17:45 now to find where to fix it on arch... 19:18:20 ah /etc/man_db.conf 19:23:27 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:31:31 -!- tombom_ has joined. 19:33:19 I've got half a mind to do this with getcontext and setcontext. 19:33:23 (oh, the evil I can do!) 19:34:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:34:39 pikhq, they are removed and/or deprecated in POSIX 2008 iirc 19:34:41 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:34:51 ah yes 19:34:53 man page says: 19:34:56 " SUSv2, POSIX.1-2001. POSIX.1-2008 removes the specification of getcontext(), citing portability issues, and recommending that applications be rewritten to use POSIX threads instead." 19:34:58 pikhq: it's because _exit is in user namespace in C89 19:35:05 rather than implementation namespace 19:35:16 so adding it might have broken existing C89 programs that used it as a variable name (!) 19:35:20 scarf, so what about printf()? 19:35:24 isn't that user name space? 19:35:32 AnMaster: But POSIX threads aren't a replacement. 19:35:39 pikhq, not my fault 19:35:49 I know, just debating. 19:35:58 AnMaster: yes, unless you include stdio.h 19:36:04 Pthreads are... Threading. getcontext et al are continuations, with which coroutines can be done. 19:36:12 (and thereby userspace 'threads') 19:36:28 pikhq, you could simulate getcontext/setcontext with posix threads and mutexes 19:36:34 presumably, they had a choice of making you #include to get _exit(), or just calling it _Exit() and putting it in a preëxisting header 19:36:37 o.O 19:36:38 scarf, .... 19:36:43 Yes, you could. 19:36:52 Dear lord. 19:36:58 pikhq, what? 19:37:04 This would be the most evil fibonacci sequence implementation ever. 19:37:10 what? 19:37:13 pikhq: I did something similar in continuation.i 19:37:20 using INTERCAL threads to simulate continuations 19:37:24 Continuation-passing style using POSIX threads. 19:37:29 pikhq, wonderful! 19:37:53 pikhq, a bit irritating on implementations not using user space threads 19:38:02 on m:n mappings it shouldn't be too bad 19:38:11 on 1:1 mappings, well, it would be bad 19:38:24 AnMaster: Could just link against GNU userspace threads for those platforms. 19:38:32 pikhq, such as linux? 19:38:38 linux uses 1:1 threads 19:38:54 freebsd used to use m:n but switched to 1:1 too 19:39:02 most other are 1:1 I think 19:39:13 NPTL uses either 1:1 or m:n. 19:39:21 ntpl can use m:n? 19:39:23 link? 19:39:30 I never heard about this before 19:39:34 Not sure how to switch it over to m:n, but Wikipedia says it can. 19:39:44 nptl* 19:39:46 Argh. 19:39:52 pikhq, what? 19:39:53 No it doesn't. 19:40:03 "An alternative to NPTL's 1×1 model is the m×n model where there are typically more userland threads than schedulable entities. In the m×n implementation, the threading library is responsible for scheduling user threads on the available schedulable entities; " 19:40:10 That's just saying "this is possible". 19:40:11 -_-' 19:40:13 yeah 19:40:35 but linux doesn't do it 19:40:53 GNU Portable Threads are M:1. 19:41:15 Slightly inefficient, but work just about everywhere. 19:44:16 (i think there was a big error in it when i found it, which i removed :D) 19:44:25 darn windows 19:44:30 oerjan, big error in what? 19:44:54 well since it ended up here anyhow, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formally_real_field 19:45:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:45:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:45:47 AnMaster: Well, doing that I would have *one* advantage. 19:45:57 Writing in a functional style makes everything automatically reentrant. 19:46:02 Mmm, immutable values. 19:49:21 Though, if I did everything with getcontext et al, I could do stuff like have garbage-collected stacks. Which amuses me. 19:49:46 Doing continuation-passing style with pthreads would be a bit like doing it with bash shell calling "exec $0"... no? 19:50:12 cpressey: Remarkably similar. 19:52:09 I should implement that idea I had for "continuators" a while ago, even though it was really vague and unimplementable. Something about passing continuations between processes/threads, and calling a service to provide new continuations... 19:52:34 I think I just liked the term "continuator". 19:52:55 pikhq, how could you gc the stacks? 19:53:04 pikhq, also I doubt boehm-gc would like it very much 19:53:12 AnMaster: Stacks are explicitly allocated. 19:53:34 pikhq, boehm-gc would go mad 19:53:39 You literally have to allocate a stack and stick it into a context for creating a new context. 19:54:36 pikhq, what if you realloc() it? 19:54:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 19:54:40 or anyway 19:54:44 how do you grow it 19:55:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:55:13 Generally, you just allocate a sufficiently large stack. 19:55:32 But it's normally allocated memory. 19:55:39 Which happens to be where the stack pointer is. 19:55:51 'lo. 19:56:27 hard disk's a little slow this morning 19:57:21 mhm 19:57:39 GreaseMonkey, why are you still using a legacy rotational storage device? 19:57:55 also instead of flying cars: WHERE ARE MY DATA CUBES? 19:58:15 AnMaster: so how much are, um, 160DMGB+250DMGB SSDs? 19:58:26 DMGB = drivemakers' gigabytes = 1000^3B 19:58:27 wth is DMGB 19:58:56 GreaseMonkey, thanks, will use that against ehird (he uses GB/GiB) 19:58:56 i completely refuse to refer to them as just GB 19:59:12 GB was always 1024^3 19:59:27 those who insist we use GiB for that should learn to stop being so cheap 20:00:12 some country should bring in a legislation which enforces that a xB is 1024^y bytes 20:00:28 GreaseMonkey, G = 1000 in the SI system though 20:00:31 because 1000^x is just false advertising 20:00:37 or are you using kig for 1000 grams? 20:00:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:00:51 GreaseMonkey, ^ 20:00:58 well, note that there's kg, and KB 20:01:01 also they should just use cyliders 20:01:04 cylinders* 20:01:26 it was always 1024 for a KB, anyway 20:01:41 kig = 1024 grams? 20:01:52 thing is, with metric, you're working with real numbers 20:01:54 -!- augur has joined. 20:02:03 and a human is supposed to measure it 20:02:04 wow: http://labs.ripe.net/content/pollution-18 20:02:08 (usually) 20:02:17 but with a computer, you're working with integers 20:02:17 it's a graph of what happened when 1.1.1.0/24 was put live on the internet 20:02:23 GreaseMonkey: The SI prefixes are useless for computers, yes. 20:02:25 kig = 1024 grams? <-- ah hm 20:02:29 basically, the people who owned it got DOSed 20:02:37 This is why we shouldn't use SI prefixes. 20:02:40 make it, dmkg for "drive makers kilogram" 20:02:45 Mmm, gibibytes. 20:02:51 to keep with GreaseMonkey's logic 20:02:59 should be Kig 20:03:07 capital K on KiB 20:03:09 thing is, it was always 1024 bytes to a KB 20:03:19 err 20:03:22 it was also always 1000 grams to a kg 20:03:39 isn't 1.0.0.0/8 private? 20:03:41 oh wait 20:03:43 that is 10 20:03:45 AnMaster: No. 20:04:00 1.0.0.0/8 was recently assigned. 20:04:08 However, it's been used as a private space. 20:04:25 (it was reserved by the IANA since '81) 20:04:28 there's a huge amount of unofficial use of 1.0.0.0 20:04:35 at first i thought you said they allocated 10.0.0.0/8 20:04:50 the authorities are holding on to 1.1.1.0/24 on the basis that it would be crazy to allocate it to anyone 20:05:08 good point 20:05:23 and it looks like RIPE decided to put it online for a bit to see what happened 20:05:29 (the result was chaos, as you can imagine) 20:06:20 We can certainly conclude from this that specific blocks in 1/8 such as 1.1.1.0/24 and 1.2.3.0/24 are extremely polluted. Unless the traffic sent towards those blocks is significantly reduced they might be unusable in a production environment. 20:07:58 it's not so bad considering that they actually tested it before attempting to release it 20:08:54 it's brilliant that they even thought of testing 20:09:29 that might be why AW's server was so damn slow 20:09:51 scarf, I couldn't imagine before reading it that it was chaos 20:10:11 mainly because I couldn't imagine people would be abusing reserved prefixes 20:10:20 AnMaster: Wikipedia has edits from 1.2.3.4, you can check that yourself 20:10:29 that's what cottoned me on to thinking that there might be a problem 20:10:35 (it also has edits from 127.0.0.1, which is amazing) 20:10:38 scarf, what does that signify btw 20:10:44 the 1.2.3.4 thing I mean 20:10:54 it means that someone, probably a dev, put a fake IP in for the edit 20:10:59 although I'm not sure whyt 20:11:00 *why 20:11:03 hm 20:11:12 scarf, as for those 127.0.0.1, what sort of edits 20:11:23 I guess someone used an ssh tunnel... 20:11:23 you can check for yourself, you know 20:11:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Special:Contributions/127.0.0.1 20:11:33 scarf, I don't know how to search on the ip 20:11:34 ah 20:11:47 looks like mostly interwiki links to the Russian Wikipedia 20:11:55 yep 20:12:02 so a bot that wasn't properly logged in? 20:12:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:127.0.0.1 is not that bad either 20:12:41 "Note: In the event of vandalism from this address, half-baked abuse reports may be sent to Wikimedia's own network administrator for further investigation that will never be looked into." 20:12:57 hehe 20:13:14 "Caution should never be used when blocking this IP or reverting its contributions without checking - if a block is unnecessary, administrators should consider using the banhammer without adding any templates as the block reason. Of course, most administrators are just testing the blocking and unblocking procedure." 20:13:18 err 20:13:24 is that backwards? 20:13:24 ARGH BALLS i can't get on wikipedia >_> <_< 20:13:40 AnMaster: yes, it's backwards 20:18:00 scarf, wth at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:1.2.3.4 20:18:05 -!- |MigoMipo| has changed nick to MigoMipo. 20:18:46 no idea there 20:19:20 might be worth mentioning that it's changed hands since 20:19:43 also why allocate 1/8 20:19:50 just switch to ipv6 already dammit 20:20:01 scarf, what changed hands? 20:20:26 AnMaster: 1/8 20:21:21 hm 20:30:21 um that's backwards? it seemed sort of logical to me to treat an address heavy-handed if it doesn't really have the right to exist as an editor... 20:37:15 AnMaster: I'm tempted to say that IPV6 is the "jumped the shark" of network addressing, but I won't :) It's not /quite/ the same effect... 20:37:45 cpressey, it *is* about our only hope atm 20:37:58 cpressey, any alternatives would take years to develop 20:38:00 But it's similar, I guess: "I'm only going to start doing it if all my friends are doing it, and my friends feel the same way" 20:38:09 and we don't have that amount of time any more 20:38:16 before ipv4 runs out completely 20:38:33 cpressey, also I use a sixxs tunnel 20:40:34 cpressey, my isp has an ipv6 block allocated, they don't use it though 20:40:39 also I doubt my router could handle it 20:40:46 could telnet to it and check it's menus 20:40:55 (it's a speedtouch adsl modem/router) 20:41:48 I remember trying NetBSD once, and it insisting on using IPV6. That was not fun. 20:42:14 Comcast is beginning the switch to IPv6 *now*. 20:42:28 How very NetBSDish... "No! We will do it the RIGHT way, no matter what the cost!" 20:42:40 ...what the crap 20:42:49 cpressey: heh 20:42:52 netbsd should still be using IPv2 20:43:01 THAT seems more netbsdish to me 20:43:08 GreaseMonkey: Heh 20:43:39 my netbsd experience is that it takes up sod-all RAM 20:44:15 GreaseMonkey: Garbage collection and manual memory management are highly overrated. 20:44:29 Just statically create a heap of a couple gigabytes and hope it works. 20:44:30 :P 20:45:06 just use your nanobots to create a few cubic meters of computronium 20:46:38 pikhq: or the anagolf technique of just using whatever memory addresses happened to be in the variables at the time, and repeatedly running the program until they turn out to be writable 20:48:32 cpressey, my isp hasn't started going ipv6 yet 20:48:33 also 20:48:37 things will be bad 20:48:45 because almost no servers will have ipv6 20:48:52 so you will have to go through 6-to-4 20:48:54 and that 20:48:59 will result in problems 20:49:06 like connection limit counts for irc 20:49:07 and what not 20:49:24 also wikipedia banning 20:49:36 I'd expect wikipedia to go to ipv6 some time 20:49:41 well yes 20:49:48 scarf, still, the issues are huge 20:50:00 going home now, anyway 20:50:01 bye everyone 20:50:04 scarf, imagine rate limiting on lots of places 20:50:05 scarf, cya 20:50:09 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:09 cya scarf 20:56:44 Quite polluted /24 when announcing it causes tens of megabits of traffic (on block that should be quiet)... :-/ 21:05:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds). 21:07:14 -!- augur has joined. 21:13:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: co'o rodo). 21:14:07 -!- impomatic has left (?). 21:21:13 Often resource exhaustion problems don't feel that pressing until you really hit them, and when you hit them, you hit them _hard_. 21:30:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:37:29 -!- adam_d has joined. 21:43:45 Well, I've got CPS with getcontext et al... 21:43:51 And it behaves... *Weirdly*. 21:44:38 It goes through 3 continuations just fine, before going up to a nulled out stack frame. 21:45:33 Yes, a nulled stack frame. 21:50:06 I'm sorry I ate your stack frame. 21:50:09 I was hungry. 22:01:29 And it is in fact a stack fram that was valid. 22:01:36 It just somehow gets nulled out. 22:01:46 I don't know how. 22:06:50 It would appear to be a result of a too-large new stack... 22:06:53 Somehow. 22:11:44 ... The program changes behavior with normal malloc. 22:12:10 With GC_MALLOC, it computes factorials validly for n in [0..11]. 22:12:27 With normal malloc, it loops infinitely. 22:16:07 http://sprunge.us/RNie 22:18:06 niht 22:18:08 night* 22:20:59 ni! 22:22:40 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:23:28 I'm never using getcontext ever again. 22:23:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:27:02 -!- Pthing has joined. 22:28:46 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:06:50 -!- MissPiggy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:07:24 -!- coppro has joined. 23:19:46 So I'm thinking an imperative function-level language would revolve around three concepts: storage locations (replace atoms), procedures (replace functions), and procedurals (replace functionals). Parameters would always be passed "by reference" -- so procedurals make new procedures by modifying (clobbering) existing procedures. 23:26:33 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:34:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:37:29 -!- adam_d has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:45:21 -!- mquin has quit (Remote host closed the connection).