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02:26:50 <Sgeo__> Sam Hughes responded to me! *squee*
02:28:54 <coppro> Sam Hughes?
02:29:28 <Sgeo__> The qntm.org guy
02:29:42 <Sgeo__> Fine Structure, the Ed stories, Geocide
02:32:40 <Pthing> oh, he does things outside of everything2?
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02:34:46 <Sgeo__> I know that the Fine Structure stuff, and I bet a good amount of his other fiction, is on both e2 and qntm
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02:47:53 <pikhq> Pthing: www.qntm.org . Read.
02:48:09 <Pthing> but i can't, jibreel
02:50:24 <Sgeo__> ?
02:50:48 <Pthing> nyekulturny
02:50:56 <Pthing> i got it bookmarked now, though
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06:05:18 <oklopol> why do i keep reading john gabriel's knols
06:05:24 <oklopol> it hurts so much
06:06:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, fiction?
06:06:57 <AnMaster> ouch got to run bbl
06:12:03 <oklopol> yes
06:12:15 <augur> guys
06:12:21 <oklopol> 
06:12:21 <oklopol> thems=[]
06:12:21 <augur> i feel like i spoke with one of you at one point
06:12:28 <augur> about some sort of graph transformation
06:12:34 <oklopol> http://knol.google.com/k/are-real-numbers-uncountable#
06:12:49 <oklopol> famous fiction
06:12:51 <augur> maybe it was you, oklopol, i dont know
06:14:13 <augur> but basically it was a transformation of a rooted graph into a tree where like
06:14:36 <augur> the "daughter" nodes of the any given node were all of the nodes that the original node in the graph was connected to by an edge
06:17:57 <augur> does that sound familiar to anyone?
06:22:05 <oklopol> yes
06:22:12 <oklopol> but i don't recall any use for it
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06:24:17 <augur> whats it called
06:24:19 <augur> tell me, please
06:24:20 <augur> D:
06:25:08 <oklopol> it's a treificated graph, obviously
06:25:10 <oklopol> see you ->
06:25:14 <augur> :|
06:25:19 <augur> nooo
06:25:26 <augur> i need to know what its called! :(
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06:27:19 <augur> oklopol! :(
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10:10:20 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oklopol, fiction?
10:10:31 <oerjan> it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this
10:11:14 * oerjan hasn't read them but there was a post about it on good math/bad math yesterday
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12:50:03 <scarf> is there something wrong with me?
12:50:12 <scarf> I wanted to write a program, and decided Java was the best language for it
12:50:34 <oklopol> :o
12:51:15 <scarf> so far it's going rather well
12:51:30 <scarf> although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it
12:51:49 <Ilari> scarf: What kind of program?
12:52:03 <oklopol> i don't think a java project of mine has ever failed
12:52:04 <scarf> Ilari: I'm trying to write a ttyrec player that's better than any of the current ones
12:52:06 <scarf> but a GUI one
12:52:11 <oklopol> but i've just done semisimple uni projects
12:52:15 <scarf> and with all sorts of interesting features
12:52:17 <oklopol> in it
12:53:17 <Ilari> Java doesn't allow much crazy stuff. But the reflection part is really nice...
12:53:27 <scarf> I'm not trying to do crazy stuff, though
13:11:25 <FireFly> Pretty much the only crazy thing I've seen Java allow is having a class, variable and function of the same name
13:16:45 <scarf> the most crazy thing I've done so far is subclassed BasicSliderUI and overloaded the method that paints the background
13:16:49 <scarf> so as to have a slider with a custom background
13:30:58 <oklopol> why's that crazy?
13:32:07 <scarf> it isn't really, but it was a pain to figure out what to do
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14:51:37 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this <-- ouch!
14:52:03 <AnMaster> <scarf> although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it <--- iirc there are plenty
14:52:25 <AnMaster> though the only ones I can remember the names of right now are eclipse and netbeans
14:52:44 <AnMaster> scarf, and what the hell is that program?
14:52:48 <scarf> AnMaster: there are plenty, I'm using netbeans because it's what I'm supposed to teach here
14:52:54 <scarf> and it's a ttyrec player
14:53:03 <AnMaster> what the crap
14:53:10 <scarf> what's the what the crap for?
14:53:24 <AnMaster> that java would be best for that...
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14:53:37 <AnMaster> scarf, is ttyrec a text format? Or binary?
14:53:40 <scarf> binary
14:53:50 <scarf> but it's meant to be portable, cross-platform, GUI and have loads of features
14:53:52 <AnMaster> hard to parse?
14:54:06 <scarf> easy to parse, hard to interpret
14:54:20 <AnMaster> also fun: jaunty kernel *source* update, and modules, but no the actual kernel image itself
14:54:27 <AnMaster> and it changed patch level number
14:54:29 <scarf> the format's incredibly simple, and so is missing most of the particularly useful information, that would be needed to, say, upload
14:54:30 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called
14:54:32 <scarf> AnMaster: I noticed that too
14:54:41 <scarf> same in karmic, except there was a kernel update the next day
14:54:55 <AnMaster> scarf, any bug report for it in jaunty?
14:55:12 <AnMaster> ah here it is, ran apt-get update again
14:57:28 <AnMaster> and on arch (for updates): download size: 42.82 MB, installed size: 204.92 MB. Quite good compression. And arch packages are gzipped
14:57:46 <AnMaster> can't see any obvious "lots of text only" package either
15:02:24 <AnMaster> yeargh, conflict on menu.lst
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16:28:32 <scarf> gah at the netbeans update dialog
16:28:47 <scarf> it concatenates the licences of all the updates that are being applied, and asking if you agree
16:29:04 <scarf> which means I'm having to scroll through something like 10 copies each of the GPL and CDDL to see if there's anything else buried in there
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16:31:09 <scarf> oh, there are other licences there too
16:31:14 <scarf> 3 copies of the Apache licence so far
16:31:21 <cpressey> Heh.  A need for "license de-duping."
16:31:35 <scarf> and a modified BSD3 which bans using a particular name for derivative works
16:31:52 <scarf> cpressey: Debian actually has that
16:31:52 <cpressey> Oh, you got to love the BSD license forking.
16:32:00 <scarf> it symlinks all the copies of the GPL to a common location
16:32:25 <cpressey> Well, I'll defeat it by rewording my BSD disclaimer!
16:32:45 <scarf> I was kind-of scared there'd be a BSD4 in there somewhere
16:32:57 <scarf> done about 2/3s, though, and haven't seen one yet
16:33:14 <cpressey> 4. Thou shalt not distribute as part of a "Hits of the 90's" compilation.
16:34:12 <scarf> ooh, LGPL
16:35:04 <scarf> hmm, looks OK
16:35:16 <scarf> the ridiculous thing is, that accepting an open-source licence agreement is generally irrelevant anyway
16:36:05 <cpressey> Given that most of the conditions only apply once you copy it or modify it -- yes.
16:36:09 <cheater> scarf: what's wrong with bsd4? i am ignorant on that topic
16:36:17 <scarf> cheater: the "odious advertising clause"
16:36:30 <cheater> oh, they still make new versions of the unmodified?
16:36:33 <scarf> basically, the fourth clause of the original BSD licence basically required credit in documentation and on startup
16:36:41 <cheater> i thought they were gone from the new versions
16:36:43 <scarf> they are
16:36:46 <scarf> BSD3 is newer than BSD4
16:36:49 <cheater> oh you mean the bsd 4clause
16:36:51 <scarf> (3-clause BSD, 4-clause bSD)
16:36:52 <scarf> *BSD
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16:37:06 <cheater> yeah, heh
16:37:12 <scarf> and some people, like the currently missing ehird, even advocate 2-clause
16:39:15 * scarf wonders whether to use an existing Java terminal implementation, or roll their own
16:40:08 <scarf> rolling my own has the advantage of being able to put various customisations in, like starting halfway through the ttyrec
16:40:28 <scarf> and marking unknown positions with a "unknown" symbol until they're known
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17:24:39 <pikhq> scarf: The GNU opinion on "accepting license agreements" is "You must agree in order to use the rights given in the license. Using or installing this software is not one of those rights, so no need to agree with the license."
17:24:49 <pikhq> That also appears to be the opinion by most sane people.
17:24:50 <scarf> pikhq: agreed
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17:58:36 <cpressey> Sooo.... SUSv3 (POSIX) implies the presence of a C99 compiler.  And C99 implies the availability of SUSv3 system calls.  Therefore C99 <-> POSIX?
17:59:27 <pikhq> No, C99 implies the availability of a small subset of SUSv3 system calls.
17:59:43 <pikhq> And that's only because that's how you *implement* stdio.h.
17:59:57 <pikhq> C99 does not imply, say, fork.
18:01:05 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to uninstall this transformation pack thing
18:02:54 <cpressey> pikhq: Interesting.  And somewhat of a relief.
18:03:49 <scarf> different C standards have started taking features from the others, which is not exactly surprising
18:04:18 <cpressey> Although, I don't suppose you know of any sort of rough quick guide as to which headers are C99 and which are POSIX.
18:04:48 <scarf> there's a list of C99 headers at the end of C99 itself
18:04:58 <cpressey> Cool.
18:04:59 <scarf> let me try to find one of the public drafts (the actual standard is behind a paywall)
18:05:11 <cpressey> I think I have a link somewhere...
18:06:15 <Sgeo> Why do you have to pay to see a standard?
18:06:26 <cpressey> Sgeo: that cheeses me off too
18:06:47 <scarf> cpressey: http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf
18:06:55 <scarf> look at annex B in the table of contents
18:07:12 <scarf> annex B summarises the contents of the headers, the table of contents says which they are
18:07:28 <scarf> although note that for a POSIX build, some things are added by POSIX to the standard C headers, just to annoy you
18:07:30 <cpressey> I found http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf -- heh, the date at the top is "Septermber 7, 2007"
18:08:01 <scarf> that would presumably be a different draft of the same standard
18:08:16 <scarf> yours is newer than mine, probably works better
18:08:49 <Sgeo> BRB restart home my comp survives
18:09:39 <scarf> incidentally, WG14 made their reasoning behind C99 public: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/C99RationaleV5.10.pdf
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18:16:08 <cpressey> I'm still a bit confused why -std=c89 disallows you from using POSIX things, then, but I suppose it is another case of just annoying me
18:17:13 <scarf> cpressey: it's not "disallow", it's "prevent compatibility problems"
18:17:41 <scarf> it's perfectly legal to have a function called _exit() in a file that includes stdlib.h in C89, for instance
18:17:46 <cpressey> Ah.
18:17:49 <scarf> try that in POSIX, and you'll get an error
18:18:00 <cpressey> Well then it is "disallow", but it's for a good reason.
18:18:05 <scarf> yes
18:18:24 <scarf> (the C99 equivalent is called _Exit(), which isn't allowed in C89 because it starts with an underscore and a capital letter)
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18:20:08 <cpressey> I think every personal project I've written in C99, relies on C99 only because it makes some POSIX call.  Mostly nanosleep().
18:20:47 <cpressey> Er, assuming that's POSIX and not some BSDism or something that just happens to be widely supported, would have to double check that.
18:21:43 <scarf> UNIX standardisation is a mess
18:21:44 <cpressey> Yeah, it is. ok.
18:21:59 <cpressey> (nanosleep is in POSIX, I mean)
18:22:27 * scarf wonders how long it will be before a picosleep becomes necessary
18:22:40 <cpressey> Eerm
18:23:00 <scarf> computers aren't fast enough for it to be useful yet
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18:23:31 <scarf> I've certainly written real-time Linux applications which grabbed hold of the scheduler and used carefully timed pauses to communicate with an external device in bursts
18:23:32 <cpressey> Eeerrm no, not yet.
18:24:11 <scarf> (this was for an embedded system; telling the scheduler not to interrupt your process at all until it tells the other processes it's their turn is not the sort of thing you regularly do on a desktop OS)
18:25:12 <cpressey> AmigaOS forbid() and permit() come to mind.
18:26:04 <cpressey> Cooperative multitasking is so nice.
18:26:34 * Sgeo needs to stop appearing in XML
18:27:16 <scarf> cpressey: I dealt with it back when I was writing windows 3.1 programs
18:27:59 <scarf> and Linux has a cooperative-multitasking scheduler, but you need to be root, and include an unusual library, to be able to trigger it
18:28:10 <Sgeo> <user><stub_uid></stub_uid><ustat></ustat><pgeo></pgeo><sgeo>0</sgeo>
18:28:32 <Sgeo> source of http://www.stubhub.com/all-cities/unc-tickets/
18:28:33 <scarf> </scarf></user></Sgeo>
18:36:06 * Sgeo should probably eat food at some point
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18:42:52 <scarf> "A program whose output is affected by the value returned by a call to setlocale might not be strictly conforming. If the only way in which the result affects the final output is by determining, directly or indirectly, whether to make another call to setlocale, then the program remains strictly conforming; but if the result affects the output in some other way, then it does not."
18:43:38 <scarf> how nicely tortuous
18:46:23 <cpressey> I would have said torturous
18:47:15 <scarf> there's something nicely eso about a function whose only purpose is to determine whether to call it again
18:47:18 <oklopol> what the hell
18:47:30 <scarf> unfortunately, setlocale has side effects, meaning that it isn't quite so purely beautiful
18:47:34 <Sgeo> scarf, it would be worse if it didn't have ..
18:47:35 <Sgeo> right
18:49:31 <scarf> hmm, among other things, that means it's an undecidable problem to tell whether a C99 program is strictly conforming
18:50:01 <scarf> you could make a turing machine of locales, or something
18:50:34 <cpressey> I like how most undecidable problems suggest Turing-complete esolangs
18:50:37 <scarf> (admittedly, you can do that /anyway/ in C99, but doing it with locales would be funny)
18:50:45 <cpressey> It's the setlocale tarpit!
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18:51:06 <scarf> cpressey: I read an article about cache effects recently
18:51:10 <scarf> and was wondering about making an esolang out of those
18:51:26 <scarf> e.g. multiple threads each of which can only store finite data each, but you can have arbitrarily many
18:51:46 <scarf> and the only way they can communicate is by accessing lots of memory really quickly to change the relative running speeds of the others
18:52:16 <cpressey> That could work, as a design...
18:53:22 <cpressey> bbl -- need food.
18:53:27 <scarf> it would be horrendously nonportable, but I think that's a plus
18:54:34 <Sgeo> What happened to the deliberately slow language?
18:54:44 <scarf> SLOBOL?
18:54:52 <scarf> I think people just forgot about it, it wasn't particularly interesting
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18:57:41 <Sgeo_> Accidental hibernation is fun!
18:57:59 <Sgeo_> Not SLOBOL
18:58:29 <Sgeo_> The one olsner was making, with the conversion between base e and pi, or whatever
18:58:43 <scarf> ah
18:58:48 <scarf> I don't know about that one
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19:01:02 <Sgeo_> How easy/difficult would it be for someone with a weak grasp of Javascript to attempt to fix a WebKit specific issue with a website?
19:01:28 <scarf> not massively difficult, although the problem might not be in the javascript
19:01:36 <scarf> it rather depends on what the issue is, I'd imagine
19:01:46 * Sgeo_ will attempt it
19:01:56 <Sgeo_> Maybe make a Greasemonkey script
19:02:20 <Sgeo_> Be the savior of everyone at my school who loves Chrome and refuses to use Firefox or IE or IETab just for this specific site
19:02:39 <Sgeo_> (That set includes me. I doubt that it includes anyone else, but still)
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19:11:52 <FireFly> Hmmm
19:12:58 <FireFly> Is there a certain name for a higher-order function which takes two lists of the same length, and applies a function to the first element in both lists, the second, and so on?
19:13:12 <FireFly> And then returns the result as a new list
19:13:19 <Deewiant> zipWith
19:13:24 <FireFly> Ah, thanks
19:14:02 <augur> oklopol!
19:14:17 <oklopol> meeeeeeeeeee
19:14:33 <augur> did you actually recognize that description of a graph-to-tree transformation i described last night?
19:15:15 <Deewiant> augur: Transitive closure?
19:15:28 <augur> Deewiant: uh.. i dont _think_ so but who knows
19:15:48 <Deewiant> If you have a DAG, anyway.
19:16:12 <augur> it was a transformation that took a rooted graph and turned it into a tree where the daughters of each node N were the nodes N' that N was connected to by an edge in the graph
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19:16:52 <augur> e.g. if your graph was { ab, bc, ac } rooted at a, the tree node for a would have tree nodes for a b and c as its daughters
19:17:05 <Deewiant> Ah, not transitive then. I thought you'd get all N' that could be reached from N.
19:17:10 <augur> the nodes for b would have a b c as its daughters, etc.
19:17:23 <cpressey> Sounds more like a spanning tree -- sort of the reverse of transitive closure.
19:17:28 <augur> a spanning tree huh
19:17:32 <Sgeo_> Awesome! avast has a virus-scanning screensaver
19:17:39 <cpressey> Not exactly, but similar
19:17:49 <augur> no, not a spanning tree at all :(
19:18:28 <cpressey> ...union of all possible spanning trees?  :)
19:18:41 <augur> :P
19:18:42 <augur> no
19:18:45 <augur> even then!
19:18:51 <augur> the resulting tree is infinitely large
19:19:11 <cpressey> Ah.
19:20:59 <Sgeo_> If I run a screensaver at the same time XP turns off my monitor, will the screensaver still run?
19:21:02 <cpressey> So by most definitions of "tree" it's actually not a tree :)
19:21:17 <augur> well it SORT of is :P
19:21:18 <oklopol> absolutely nothing to do with a spanning tree if you ask me
19:21:32 <Sgeo_> (The screensaver has side-effects)
19:22:12 <oklopol> i don't know the name for the structure, but really it is the exact same mathematical object in some sense
19:22:24 <augur> oklopol: same as what?
19:22:36 <oklopol> i mean if you just care about how things are connected to each other
19:22:39 <cpressey> Sounds more like the closure of all infinite paths through the graph to me, now.
19:22:49 <oklopol> augur: as the original graph
19:22:57 <augur> oh, yes, thats part of the point actually
19:23:10 <augur> i dont remember who first showed it to me, someone here i think
19:23:26 <oklopol> cpressey: what does "closure" mean there?
19:23:28 <augur> and at the time i thought, gosh thats useless isnt it
19:23:46 <augur> but ive actually realized that its immensely important to something im working on
19:23:47 <oklopol> well maybe that's a stupid question
19:23:53 <cpressey> oklopol: well, union over a countable set, i think.
19:24:16 <oklopol> countable set of what? or is that your definition for closure?
19:24:51 <cpressey> Countable set of infinite paths, in this case.
19:25:04 <cpressey> At least I hope that's countable :)
19:25:46 <oklopol> it's not; and what's the union of paths? do you take the set of nodes from each path and take the union of them?
19:25:52 <oklopol> you'll get the connected component as a set
19:26:36 <oklopol> consider a graph that forms a triangle, everytime you move you have two choices, now consider reals in binary representation
19:27:03 <cpressey> These are good questions; I don't have answers, since I only started thinking about this 10 minutes ago. :P
19:28:23 <oklopol> closure usually means you have some set of things, and you have something you can do, and if the set is "closed under" the thing you can do, it's a closure of that thing
19:28:48 <cpressey> Well, can you have closures of uncountable sets?
19:29:01 <MissPiggy> what!!
19:29:25 <augur> MissPiggy! :o
19:29:26 <oklopol> topological closures are sets that are closed under convergent sequences
19:29:35 <oklopol> topology is all about uncountability
19:29:50 <cpressey> So is that a "yes"?
19:30:01 <oklopol> sure
19:30:46 <oklopol> i mean if i understood what you meant
19:31:12 <oklopol> "can you take the closure of an uncountably large set w.r.t. some operation"
19:32:12 <cpressey> OK, so what'
19:32:26 <cpressey> One sec.
19:32:45 <cpressey> So what's left is to define the operation.
19:33:12 <cpressey> So you have a graph with n nodes, and for each node there's a (potentially) uncountable set of infinite paths that starts at it.
19:33:28 <oklopol> this is a truth
19:34:02 <cpressey> And each path is a countable list of nodes, is it fair to say that?
19:34:27 <oklopol> a path in a graph is a function from N to the set of nodes, imo
19:34:36 <oklopol> an infinite graph that is
19:35:05 <oklopol> and if f is the path, you have for all n that the edge (f(n), f(n+1)) is in the graph
19:35:16 <cpressey> OK, fair enough, but can it be represented as a countable list of nodes?
19:35:42 <oklopol> well there's a surjection from N isn't there :P
19:36:10 <cpressey> But the graph I'm talking about it's infinite (yet).
19:36:16 <oklopol> i mean if we define a path as a function from N to the nodes, then clearly there will only be |N| nodes in there
19:36:33 <cpressey> I mean, I was under the impression that the origiinal thing was to be applied to finite graphs.  I could be wrong.
19:36:34 <oklopol> so... yes
19:36:41 <oklopol> yes, most likely
19:36:49 <cpressey> Simpler that way, anyway :)
19:37:11 <oklopol> infinite graphs are sexy
19:37:35 <oklopol> coding theory is one of my current obsessions
19:38:34 <cpressey> So... to sketch the operation for closure I'm thinking of... in a finite graph g: for each set of paths starting at node n: for each node m in the list of nodes in the path: replace m with the set of paths that start at m in g
19:38:43 <cpressey> That's sloppy, but hopefully it captures the idea
19:39:10 <cpressey> You're actually making copies of the nodes in g
19:39:26 <oklopol> the thing is the result must be a tree
19:39:36 <cpressey> See, I don't see that part :)
19:39:51 <oklopol> a closure is usually the closure of a set
19:39:59 <oklopol> you don't "see" it?
19:40:00 <cpressey> Well, ok, maybe I do.
19:40:01 <cpressey> It
19:40:13 <cpressey> It's a tree, because you're making copies of the nodes from g
19:40:30 <cpressey> So you have no cycles.
19:40:56 <oklopol> anyway the thing is if you have a finite thing, and your operations only give you more finite things if their parameters are finite, then the closure will be *finite*
19:41:03 <oklopol> i mean, the objects in it will be finite
19:41:27 <cpressey> Well, true.  If the original graph in this case is a tree (no cycles thus no infinite paths,) the result of applying this... whatsit... is finite.
19:41:28 <oklopol> arbitrarily big, sure, but finite things are usually closed under operations
19:41:38 <oklopol> or "finiteness" is
19:41:58 <oklopol> even without cycles the result contains infinite paths
19:42:01 <oklopol> you can return
19:42:09 <oklopol> well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe
19:43:03 <cpressey> If "without cycles the result contains infinite paths" then I don't understand the construction, sorry :)
19:43:29 <oklopol> see, if you have an undirected graph, then every edge is a loop
19:43:34 <cpressey> Oh, undirected.
19:43:38 <cpressey> Mrrrh :)
19:43:53 <oklopol> i don't know, but that's why "well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe"
19:44:03 <cpressey> Yeah.
19:44:05 <augur> universal covering graph!
19:44:06 <oklopol> in any case no one said no loops
19:44:14 <augur> thats the closest ive seen to it, oklopol
19:44:22 <augur> infact its EXACTLY what i want
19:44:35 <augur> minus reflexing edges
19:44:41 <augur> but thats ok, because thats dependent on the graph
19:46:23 <oklopol> it's just for trees says wp
19:46:38 <cpressey> Hard to imagine the usefulness of an infinite tree in a practical application, but then, I'm not a mathematician :)
19:46:42 <oklopol> but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption
19:46:43 <oklopol> so yeah
19:47:11 <oklopol> cpressey: infinite just means you don't have to care it's finite.
19:47:23 <cpressey> Ah.  Indeed.
19:47:27 <oklopol> extendable
19:47:36 <cpressey> You could even code this up as some sort of lazy generator...
19:47:41 <oklopol> my back.... hurts...
19:47:43 <augur> oklopol: actually its for any connected graph
19:47:54 <augur> cpressey: its totally lazy, yeah
19:48:06 <oklopol> For any connected graph G, it is possible to construct its universal covering graph.[1] This is an instance of the more general universal cover concept from topology; the topological requirement that a universal cover be simply connected translates in graph-theoretic terms to a requirement that it be acyclic and connected; that is, a tree.
19:48:10 <oklopol> this is what i meant
19:48:15 <oklopol> but also read
19:48:17 <oklopol> "but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption"
19:48:18 <augur> infact, it doesnt even have to be lazy, since as oklopol points out, the universal covering graph is essentially just the graph itself
19:48:42 <augur> atleast as far as you can tell locally
19:48:48 <cpressey> Wellll... you're kind of "looking at it lazily" :)
19:48:50 <oklopol> yeah... and god my back hurts
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19:49:10 <oklopol> cpressey: i prefer to think of it as a graph iterator
19:49:36 <cpressey> "From this node, as far as I can tell by looking at my immediate edges, I am in fact surrounded by an infinite tree!!"
19:49:36 <oklopol> than a graph generator
19:50:09 <cpressey> Now to apply this to Hunt the Wumpus somehow.
19:52:38 <oklopol> i don't believe in wumpi
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20:08:28 <oerjan> um you guys, this is really quite simple: the vertices of your tree are the _paths_ from the root of your original graph.
20:08:49 <cpressey> That's what I was trying to say, in a painful, pseudo-mathematical way.
20:09:30 <oerjan> very well then.
20:11:03 <cpressey> Er, and I realize now I was possibly saying something much uglier.  (Every node of the tree would have an uncountable number of branches.  That's overkill.)
20:11:23 <oerjan> ah.
20:11:27 <oklopol> oerjan: that's the answer to how to represent it as a closure?
20:11:36 <oklopol> or is it the answer to what its name is?
20:11:51 <oklopol> these were the two questions that were asked, not sure of others
20:11:59 <oerjan> it's the answer to how to define it easily...
20:12:06 <cpressey> I don't know if it's an answer, but it's a succinct way to describe it.
20:12:07 <oklopol> i see
20:13:07 <oklopol> didn't know that was an issue, anyway probably the tree doesn't actually contain the infinite paths, prolly came up with that myself
20:13:21 <oklopol> don't have augur's original q
20:13:40 <oklopol> because it would be a pretty weird tree :P
20:13:55 <oerjan> oklopol: unless your name is John Gabriel ;D
20:14:02 <oklopol> hah
20:15:02 <oklopol> the infinite paths would be separate connected components of the graph wouldn't they
20:15:13 <oklopol> i mean components of one node
20:15:25 <oklopol> ...i guess we'd need some sort of definition first
20:15:38 <oerjan> oh i meant finite paths
20:15:51 <oerjan> right
20:16:28 <oklopol> yeah i know you did, but i didn't, i said there'd be an uncountable amount of paths, because for some reason i thought the infinite paths would be there too
20:16:28 <oerjan> well with the right topology, you could have the finite paths converge at infinite ones
20:16:48 <oklopol> hmm
20:17:07 <oklopol> a graph's connectedness is just topological connectedness?
20:17:29 <oerjan> if you include the edges as lines, so
20:17:46 <oklopol> i mean they're pretty discrete things...
20:17:48 <oerjan> otherwice the vertices seem somewhat isolated
20:18:25 <oerjan> so the finite paths would form a discrete topology, while the infinite paths they converge to would be the non-isolated points
20:18:40 <oklopol> afaiu, really you could only define open sets sensibly as connected components, or discrete topology.
20:18:46 <oklopol> hmm
20:18:48 <oklopol> oh
20:19:09 * Sgeo_ remembers when his math teacher (in 6th grade) put a question on our tests "Do your socks have holes in them"
20:19:27 <Sgeo_> It was one of those joke questions, where the correct answer was that yes, all of them do
20:19:36 <Sgeo_> But in a topological sense, they do not
20:20:09 <oklopol> so our open sets would be generated by {x} for all nodes x, and for all infinite paths, any of their infinite suffices
20:20:17 <oerjan> actually for an acyclic graph you also have some non-hausdorff options, you can let the closure of a vertex be all the vertices reachable from it
20:20:33 <oerjan> (hm scratch acyclic, that works anyhow i think)
20:21:12 <oklopol> Sgeo_: unless you consider them complex entanglements of strings!
20:21:32 <oklopol> ooooh, sock theory, is there a complete categorization of topological socks?
20:22:16 <oklopol> oerjan: err, do you mean taking as closed sets the connected components in the graph sense?
20:22:31 <oerjan> in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and trees
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20:22:53 <oerjan> oklopol: oh no, i'm assuming a directed graph
20:22:56 <oerjan> er
20:23:00 <oerjan> s/trees/forests/
20:23:11 <oerjan> oh no wait
20:23:30 <oerjan> *in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and finite partial orders
20:23:46 <oerjan> actually that might be forests too
20:23:50 <oklopol> so what exactly would the topology be?
20:24:10 <oklopol> umm
20:24:16 <oklopol> oh
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20:24:36 <oklopol> closed sets = for all nodes x all vertices reachable from x?
20:24:42 <oerjan> yeah
20:24:45 <oklopol> ah cool
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20:25:00 <oklopol> sexy stuff
20:25:09 <oerjan> you could also make that the definition of open, well that's just reversing the graph really
20:25:33 <oerjan> for finite spaces the axioms for open sets == the axioms for closed sets
20:26:12 <oklopol> ah, good point
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20:40:35 <cpressey> That's actually the first time I've ever seen topology and graph theory linked in a coherent way.  Not that I really understand what oerjan said...
20:41:59 -!- oklopol has left (?).
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20:42:07 <oklopol> whoops
20:42:42 <oklopol> anyway limits require a topology, and linking finite and infinite things in a sensible way is usually done via limits
20:43:00 <oklopol> (of some sort)
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20:44:03 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:44:09 <ehird_> Zero days since last ehird sighting.
20:44:10 <cpressey> It seems like it's harder to find literature on discrete topology -- I got the impression topologists don't consider it as interesting as the other kinds.  Ditto infinite groups (finite groups are so much more exciting!)
20:44:18 * oerjan hug tackles ehird
20:44:18 <cpressey> Oh hi ehird_.
20:44:39 <oerjan> you're alive!
20:44:51 <ehird_> Yes, but it doesn't feel it. I can't believe my life at the moment.
20:44:54 <oklopol> hello ehird_, i'm just as excited about your arrival as the others
20:45:10 <oerjan> oh dear
20:45:22 <oklopol> cpressey: discrete topology means every set is open, which essentially just means you have a set.
20:45:52 <ehird_> I think I've disappeared this long before for similar reasons; maybe I was just especially awesome before disappearing.
20:46:09 <oklopol> the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space (to put it very simply), if you have all the subsets, there's really no need to even have them explicitly.
20:46:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird_ sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:46:23 <oklopol> the book would basically be about set theory.
20:46:45 <oklopol> infinite vs finite groups is a completely different matter
20:46:58 <ehird_> If anyone wants me to explain, I will, in /msg. I don't want it to be logged.
20:47:11 <cpressey> oklopol: Gotcha.
20:47:23 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:47:46 <cpressey> (by which I mean "I see", in case there was any ambiguity)
20:48:02 <oklopol> i don't think there was
20:48:35 <oklopol> maybe "gotcha" is easier to interpret as "i have no idea what you mean"
20:48:44 <oklopol> than "i see" which is more neutral
20:48:58 <cpressey> Well, there's the "Gotcha!" as in "Aha!  Now you're trapped!"
20:49:11 <cpressey> Which I didn't mean.
20:50:04 <oklopol> hmm, i guess
20:50:55 <oklopol> "the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space" just seems like something you might want to not try to understand. or maybe it's just me
20:51:04 <oklopol> i mean
20:51:10 <oklopol> it's even wrong
20:51:13 <oklopol> let's retry
20:51:33 <oklopol> the topology of a space is a *subset* of the powerset of the set objects in the space
20:52:20 <oklopol> clearly i couldn't handle such a long string of information
20:52:58 <cpressey> I have in my head some fuzzy notion of "discrete topology" that isn't the same as the definition by that name (which I did read and understand once, a long time ago now,) and I get them mixed up.  It's coming back to me now, a bit.  More obvious why it's not terribly interesting.
20:54:03 * Sgeo wonders if http://codepad.org/UCmJrhSx is a good explanation to someone who's not in Computer Programming
20:54:37 <cpressey> I mean, people in CS throw around terms like "network topology", but from all that I tried to read in actual topology literature, it sounds like a minor abuse of the term "topology".  Network topology is far more like graph theory, no?
20:55:06 <MissPiggy> topology
20:56:15 <augur> toplology
20:56:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: looks fairly decent
20:57:29 <cpressey> Sgeo: might be worth pointing out that statements can only go inside functions
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21:03:20 -!- coppro has joined.
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21:25:14 <ehird_> Hi coppro.
21:25:51 <coppro> He's back!
21:25:59 <pikhq> He liveth!
21:26:22 <ehird_> Yes. Methinks I should link you both to the log of #esoteric-priv so you know what the hell's up.
21:26:49 <pikhq> Perhaps.
21:26:58 <ehird_> http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
21:27:07 <ehird_> Oh, that's logged.
21:27:11 <ehird_> But not easily googleable.
21:27:18 <ehird_> You know what, I don't care.
21:27:55 <MissPiggy> ehird why did you leave
21:28:00 <ehird_> In true utilitarian form, I'm sorry for dragging you into this and probably making you sadder as a result.
21:28:06 <MissPiggy> what the hell is priv
21:28:08 <ehird_> MissPiggy: Click the link. It wasn't voluntary.
21:28:16 <ehird_> #esoteric-priv as in private, I created it just to relay that.
21:28:21 <coppro> O_o
21:28:32 <ehird_> O_o is pretty much perfect.
21:28:50 <ehird_> I'd suspect myself of hallucinating all this if it weren't so fucking gritty.
21:28:54 <MissPiggy> so are you okay now?
21:29:06 <ehird_> No. I'm still not free.
21:29:13 <pikhq> Y'know, that's perhaps the most retarded way of treating... Anything.
21:29:20 <pikhq> Particularly Asperger's.
21:29:22 <coppro> agree with pikhq :(
21:29:57 <MissPiggy> what the fuck
21:30:04 <MissPiggy> ehird are you in UK
21:30:14 <ehird_> Yes.
21:30:22 <pikhq> (the expected reaction from removing an autistic patient from something they're obsessed about ranges from passive-agressive fucking with the doctors or having a meltdown. Don't fuck with that shit.)
21:30:37 <pikhq> s/or/to/
21:30:57 <MissPiggy> ehird so when will you be allowed to resume?
21:31:34 <ehird_> Resume what, exactly? Sorry if I'm not being so good at communication, I've had no meaningful form of it for god knows how long.
21:31:58 <MissPiggy> I mean like not be detained by these people?
21:32:13 <pikhq> ehird_: When is the soonest that you can get the fuck out of Britain? :P
21:32:22 <ehird_> When I... /msg time, I don't want this to be logged.
21:32:37 <coppro> ehird_: contact your media
21:33:19 <ehird_> Yes, I've been suggested that multiple times tonight. I'm seriously considering it now.
21:33:41 <coppro> from what I've heard, the British media can be especially harsh
21:34:08 <ehird_> You have no idea.
21:34:36 <coppro> "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
21:35:45 <Sgeo> ehird_'s back!
21:36:00 <pikhq> ehird_: When the hell did that mess start, anyways?
21:36:00 <ehird_> Sgeo: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
21:36:19 * oerjan thought we weren't going to talk about this in this channel.
21:36:24 <oerjan> *cough*
21:36:26 <ehird_> pikhq: Its origins reach back a year... or two, I don't know... this whole unit thing (the place is a "unit") started, um, late last year.
21:36:26 * pikhq missed that
21:36:32 <ehird_> Like say september or slightly earlier.
21:36:38 <ehird_> oerjan: I really can't care any more.
21:36:44 <ehird_> If they find the logs, so be it.
21:37:36 <coppro> like, I'm seriously considering contacting someone myself about this :/
21:37:53 <ehird_> Well, please ask me first...
21:38:27 <coppro> yeah
21:38:46 <coppro> you're clearly smart enough to know what they're doing is bad for you
21:39:10 <pikhq> coppro: Britain's handling of mental health issues is just royally fucked up in general...
21:39:22 <coppro> Apparently
21:39:57 <pikhq> Heard one too many horror stories from British friends.
21:40:12 <pikhq> ... One to many? Try far too many. Anyways.
21:40:21 <coppro> What really scares me is that even his parents can't stop them
21:40:34 <pikhq> coppro: Big Brother knows best!
21:40:47 * coppro cuddles the CoRaF
21:41:48 * pikhq pulls up the Convention on the Rights of the Child...
21:42:06 <ehird_> Child's rights, a better punchline I've not heard.
21:42:46 <pikhq> ehird_: It's law in all countries other than the US and Somalia.
21:43:11 <ehird_> But in the modern world, in practice, children have basically no rights.
21:44:18 <coppro> thankfully, that's not the case everywhere
21:44:20 <cpressey> Not to belittle the situation in any way -- I'm a bit surprised at how unsurprised I am at this.
21:44:57 <ehird_> cpressey: It surprised me only because I was the one it was happening to.
21:45:01 <pikhq> Darned thing doesn't allow parents to veto the state.
21:45:05 <ehird_> No belittling taken.
21:45:07 <pikhq> That's a freaking useless document.
21:45:39 <ehird_> In case anyone doesn't know (cpressey might not, for instance) I'm 14
21:46:26 <coppro> do you know if there's any legal recourse your parents can take?
21:47:01 <coppro> (besides seeking asylum elsewhere)
21:47:31 <ehird_> Well, in the courts I suppose they could preemptively battle sectioning; the outcome of that would, I assume, be either me being sectioned or a confirmation that they would not be allowed to section me unless my situation changed significantly.
21:47:57 <ehird_> The prospect of the outcome being me being sectioned (I already stopped attending once, a second rebellion and they would not trust me at all) makes me extremely wary of that option.
21:48:27 <coppro> what does "sectioned" mean?
21:48:43 <ehird_> Institutionalised.
21:49:11 <coppro> :(
21:49:20 <Sgeo> How is it that you're out now?
21:49:40 <ehird_> It's the weekends. I get weekends home. That was one of the things they threatened not to give me if I was sectioned.
21:49:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Monday-Friday
21:49:45 <ehird_> *weekend
21:49:46 <Sgeo> Ah
21:50:20 <pikhq> ehird_: If I were you, I'd be contacting the press and seeking asylum.
21:50:21 <MissPiggy> so you have to stay there overnight ??
21:51:56 <ehird_> MissPiggy: yes.
21:52:12 <MissPiggy> this is not right
21:52:26 <MissPiggy> I am very sorry for you being in this horrible situation
21:52:44 <ehird_> Thank you
21:53:17 <coppro> yeah, this is seriously awful :(
21:53:34 <MissPiggy> I don't trust the media about anything, I am not sure if that would be to your advantage or not?
21:53:44 <ehird_> I don't know.
21:53:49 <ehird_> They certainly generate massive publicity.
21:53:59 <ehird_> I'm a wreck right now, I guess I've been bottling this up for weeks...
21:53:59 <coppro> Publicity is likely to be in your favor
21:54:07 <coppro> but not for certain
21:54:14 <ehird_> It's just hit me how insane this all is...
21:54:19 * oklopol would take institutionalization over publicity...
21:56:30 <oklopol> maybe i'll go get some coke before someone notices i'm insane and removes that freedom ->
21:56:52 <Ilari> At least they are not shooting him up on insulin to make him gain weight... :-/
21:57:01 <pikhq> I count myself glad that I'm in the US, where our mental health system almost does not exist. :P
21:57:05 <coppro> I don't think this should be anything but a last resort, but looking at the papers, I think you'd qualify for refugee status to Canada.
21:57:21 <ehird_> Canada's nice, but yes, last resort.
21:57:30 <ehird_> If moving I'd much rather do it the regular way if at all possible.
21:57:36 <coppro> not sure about elsewhere, because you don't qualify under the Convention
21:57:52 <pikhq> ehird_: Just straight-up moving there is pretty easy for you, though.
21:57:58 <ehird_> I'm sure lucky that you guys are clever.
21:58:02 <pikhq> Hooray, Commonwealth.
21:58:24 <ehird_> Europe is the most likely place to move to
21:58:30 <ehird_> Dead easy to move around the EU
21:58:33 <coppro> yeah
21:58:56 <coppro> I was mostly looking at Canadian immigration law to satisfy my own curiosity
21:59:31 <ehird_> Thanks for this guys you have no idea how much this means to me, fuck it i'm descending into cliche land
21:59:50 <MissPiggy> don't worry about that :P
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22:00:34 <ehird_> One thing's for sure. It'd have taken a hell of a long eternity for anyone to guess this when I said I was only on sporadically because my life's fucked up
22:00:54 <oklopol> i thought your mom said no computer
22:00:54 <coppro> yeah. It's better for you to come out, because now we can be worried about you if you disappear again
22:00:56 <oklopol> ;P
22:01:06 <oklopol> (seriously)
22:01:18 <ehird_> My mother isn't stupid. :)
22:01:31 <oklopol> yeah i know, but that was my first thought
22:01:33 <ehird_> coppro: Oh, I almost forgot! I'm gay. Joking :p
22:01:38 <oklopol> eh, the coek
22:01:41 <coppro> :P
22:01:49 <coppro> not that I'd care
22:02:39 <oklopol> was our bet about just girls?
22:03:20 <oklopol> probably not
22:03:54 <coppro> ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated
22:03:55 <oklopol> because if it was just about girls, then i'd totally be against you being homosexual
22:04:23 <Ilari> oklopol: Coke? Wanting to damage liver? :-)
22:04:39 <coppro> *ehird_
22:04:42 <pikhq> coppro: Which one's that?
22:04:44 <oklopol> by coke i mean the blackish drink, or did you mean that as well?
22:04:55 <coppro> pikhq: liberty and security of person ("liberty" being the key bit)
22:05:13 <Ilari> oklopol: Yes.
22:05:19 <oklopol> damages liver?
22:05:26 <pikhq> coppro: Ah, right.
22:05:31 <oklopol> what have you been reading
22:05:56 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_5_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
22:06:02 <pikhq> Also a violation of the Article 3 of the Universal Decleration of Human Rights.
22:06:27 <Ilari> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM (as introduction).
22:06:42 <coppro> pikhq: but the Universal Declaration does not have legal force in the UK
22:06:52 <coppro> the European Convention has direct legal force
22:07:01 <ehird_> [22:03] <coppro> ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated
22:07:05 <ehird_> yikes.
22:07:14 <oklopol> "e. the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;" fits anyone
22:07:17 <pikhq> coppro: Yes it does.
22:07:27 <coppro> pikhq it does?
22:07:46 <Sgeo> oklopol, I'd imagine though that they'd have to be told for what, though
22:07:48 <pikhq> coppro: Only Somalia and the US have *not* ratified it.
22:08:24 <coppro> you mean the Convention on the Rights of the Child?
22:08:40 <pikhq> Erm. Right, that was ratified.
22:08:51 <pikhq> The Declaration is just that -- not enforced at all.
22:08:53 <pikhq> Thinko. :/
22:08:53 <coppro> right
22:09:14 <coppro> but the UK Human Rights Act of 1998 directly puts the European Convention into force
22:09:22 <Ilari> oklopol: Its the sugar in the coke that does the damage...
22:10:04 <cpressey> Ilari: What kind of lies are you spreading about there being sugar in Coke???  That, my friend, is nothing but genuine high-fructose corn syrup!
22:10:33 <ehird_> cpressey: marry me.
22:11:03 <Ilari> cpressey: Sugar and HFCS are pretty much the same health-wise (i.e. nasty).
22:11:47 <cpressey> See, that's what we Americans do to protect our precious bodily fluids instead of ratifying meaningless pfft declarations of pfft.  Also, fluoride in tap water, and mercury in fillings.
22:12:35 <pikhq> Ilari: Not really.
22:12:55 <cpressey> True, I'm actually a Canadian.  But if I stay here long enough I'll eventually turn into one of them...
22:12:56 <pikhq> Ilari: HFCS encourages greater consumption.
22:13:19 <pikhq> Our obsession with corn syrup is part of *why* Americans eat so damned much.
22:13:24 -!- [newbie] has joined.
22:14:03 <Ilari> Sugar + Refined grains => Trouble. That has been seen over and over again.
22:14:07 -!- SimonRC has joined.
22:14:24 <pikhq> Yes. HFCS is just more trouble than straight sugar.
22:14:47 <oklopol> okay i'm wanting coke more and more by the minute, have to get some before watching more ->
22:15:19 <coppro> ehird_: If you need to talk seriously about anything, I'm  here, and I suspect that most of the rest of the channel will be too
22:15:29 <ehird_> Thank you.
22:15:30 -!- [newbie] has quit (Client Quit).
22:15:34 <ehird_> Is this not serious? :-)
22:15:42 <coppro> this is 100% serious :)
22:16:00 * oerjan does the 100% serious dance
22:16:01 <ehird_> But yes, I will most likely need advice very soon...
22:16:12 -!- [newbie] has joined.
22:16:16 <pikhq> ehird_: Hmm. As a Commonwealth citizen, you are *nearly* a citizen of Canada already....
22:16:19 <Sgeo> Same here, but I probably can't be as helpful
22:16:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:16:44 <ehird_> pikhq: if I moved to canada how easy would it be for the uk to retrieve me
22:16:58 <Sgeo> (As in, I'm willing to listen, not that I need help)
22:17:03 -!- [newbie] has changed nick to MigoMipo.
22:17:06 <pikhq> ehird_: Non-trivial.
22:17:26 <coppro> if you get refugee status (and as I said, I believe you would qualify), very difficult
22:17:59 <MissPiggy> are you sure that escaping is in your best intrest? if you cooperate then it would presumably just be a finite amount of time wasted by this
22:18:13 <pikhq> If you get refugee status, there is but one way for the UK to retrieve you...
22:18:15 <pikhq> War.
22:18:30 <MissPiggy> too bad UK loves going to war...
22:19:05 <ehird_> Without refugee status, though?
22:19:15 <ehird_> MissPiggy: I'm almost entirely sure.
22:19:27 <pikhq> ehird_: Depends.
22:19:34 <pikhq> At what level of government are these actions being done?
22:20:07 <ehird_> Um, the NHS. Nothing's actually being "forced" on me, they're just saying they will force me if I don't do it "voluntarily" through the Mental Health Act.
22:20:11 <ehird_> Which is law.
22:20:21 <Ilari> pikhq: What chemical differences after breaking the alpha linkages there are between Sugar and HFCS than sightly higher amount of fructose (55% vs. 50%) in HFCS?
22:20:39 -!- comex has changed nick to comexbot.
22:20:41 <coppro> It would still be pretty difficult
22:20:49 <ehird_> pikhq: Careful. Ilari has studied the shit out of nutrition.
22:20:55 <pikhq> NHS can't do jack shit to a foreign resident.
22:21:09 <pikhq> Ilari: Alas. I should shut up about things I've merely heard about.
22:22:03 <coppro> ehird_: IIRC, they'd need to convince the higher-ups to try and get Canada to issue an extradition order, which probably wouldn't happen. If they managed to get an order, you could fight it in the legal system on the basis that your rights would be violated
22:22:31 <pikhq> ehird_: I think the Crown in Right of Canada could force you back to the UK. Short of that, though, not much.
22:22:41 <ehird_> What about another EU country?
22:22:47 <coppro> I don't know about the EU
22:23:00 <coppro> pikhq: I don't think that falls under the Prerogative
22:23:19 <pikhq> coppro: Mmm. Right.
22:23:23 <coppro> and it would, in any case, still be subject to being fought in the Courts. The Charter is a powerful piece of law.
22:23:45 <coppro> (quite possibly the strongest piece of human rights law in the world)
22:23:55 <pikhq> ehird_: They'd have to find you.
22:24:01 <pikhq> And then sue the country you're in at the time.
22:24:16 <pikhq> Meanwhile, you could go a few miles to the next country. :P
22:24:42 <Ilari> pikhq: HFCS is infamous, yes. But it might not be (much) worse than sugar.
22:24:47 <coppro> I'd expect they'd just ignore you if you left
22:24:49 <Sgeo> Are there downsides to refugee status?
22:25:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's non-trivial to get.
22:25:12 <pikhq> Especially compared to just moving.
22:25:28 <pikhq> Particularly compared to moving in the EU...
22:25:37 <coppro> yeah, moving in the EU is a breeze comparatively
22:25:43 <pikhq> (which is a matter of just leaving...)
22:25:55 <coppro> the biggest trick about refugee status is that you must have left your country already
22:27:03 <Ilari> I haven't studied "the shit out of nutrion" there are lots of people who know much more. But compared to most ordinary people...
22:27:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:28:17 <Sgeo> Ilari, that's roughly where I am with programming knowledge. #esoteric is people who know much more. "ordinary people" is all the students in the programming track..
22:28:44 -!- _MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:28:46 <coppro> On the whole, #esoteric probably contains at least one person who knows more than most ordinary people for nearly any subject
22:28:51 <coppro> and if they don't, they know someone who does
22:28:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:29:01 -!- _MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
22:29:28 <ehird_> coppro: In the cyberfuture, #esoteric will be known as the international hub for the intelligentsia.
22:29:54 * coppro has the Magic: the Gathering department covered
22:29:57 <coppro> :P
22:30:00 <ehird_> Upon those who enter we look at, not with scorn perhaps but with an intense neutrality; and those who ask a question are careful, lest we decide to creatively misinterpret it.
22:30:13 <coppro> :D
22:30:14 <ehird_> We are also, relatedly, known as the international hub of slackers who've never done anything worthwhile anyway.
22:30:24 <coppro> :P
22:30:31 * coppro is going to judge a Pro Tour in two weeks!
22:31:05 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, you're a judge? Niceness.
22:31:19 <coppro> Yeah!
22:31:21 * pikhq is merely a guy who knows the rules very well
22:31:22 <Sgeo> ehird_, considering everything that's happening, I don't know if you really care, but Fine Structure is complete
22:31:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:31:27 <coppro> pikhq: got your RA?
22:31:31 <pikhq> Which helps when friends do things very, very weird.
22:31:39 <pikhq> coppro: ... No.
22:31:45 <coppro> you should try for it
22:31:53 <ehird_> Sgeo: My life is complete once more ;P
22:32:00 <Ilari> When it comes to programming, it seems that some people are just better as programmers (and it isn't about experience).
22:32:03 <ehird_> *:P
22:32:21 <pikhq> (among other things, we have countered a spell by Sharazad, and then using a Ring of Maruf in the subgame to fetch it off the stack.)
22:32:47 <coppro> :D
22:32:54 <coppro> I take it you're mostly old-schoolers then?
22:33:11 <pikhq> No, just very casual.
22:33:20 <pikhq> Which means we end up seeing a lot of *everything* going.
22:33:33 <coppro> nice
22:33:39 <coppro> play EDH!
22:34:46 <pikhq> I've got my Reaper King EDH deck right here.
22:34:53 <coppro> :D
22:35:07 <coppro> there will be EDH side events at the PT, too bad I don't get to play :(
22:37:55 <pikhq> ehird_: So, it seems that in Canada, if you're a refugee you can only be removed from Canada via extradition, if the reason for being a refugee no longer exists, you voluntarily move elsewhere, or you voluntarily become a citizen.
22:38:16 <pikhq> Also, you may apply outside of Canada.
22:38:41 <pikhq> http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/I-2.5/page-4.html#anchorbo-ga:l_2-gb:l_1
22:39:17 <oklopol> coppro has the Magic: the Gathering department covered <<< you're not the only one
22:39:29 <ehird_> oklopol: wouldn't peg you as a magic kind of guy
22:39:34 * Sgeo wonders if he should bring in a friend who's a magic person
22:39:46 <ehird_> anyway guys, um, #esoteric-priv plz, would like to go off the record for some things
22:40:00 -!- whtspc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:41:36 <oklopol> ehird_: actually i've played a considerable amount of it, although i suck at it. but i didn't really mean myself
22:42:27 <coppro> I just meant for this channel
22:42:41 <oklopol> yeah me too, pikhq, zzo, etc
22:42:56 <coppro> Sgeo: #mtg on EFNet
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22:48:46 <cpressey> Speak of the debbil
22:48:57 <cpressey> SORRY
22:49:03 <cpressey> I mean SPEEK of the debbil
22:49:29 <oklopol> Ilari: soon first liter down
23:01:32 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:03:10 <Wareya> I think I already posted this, but
23:03:11 <Wareya> http://cymonsgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.0
23:03:31 <Wareya> Turing complete ascii game, haha
23:03:42 <coppro> REDGREEN
23:03:44 <cpressey> You did, but it's still entertaining.
23:03:50 <Wareya> yeah
23:03:52 <cpressey> Rubicon :)
23:03:59 <ehird_> Wareya: Congratulations, you just doubled the lightheartedness of this channel with that one link. :P
23:04:04 <ehird_> (And the ontopicness...)
23:04:17 <cpressey> I wonder if anyone's tried to put together a list of Turing-complete (or nearly so) computer games.
23:04:21 <Wareya> what is the lightheartedness was 0
23:04:24 <Wareya> if*
23:04:36 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:05:44 <ehird_> Wareya: Who knows.
23:05:48 <ehird_> It was something like 1/xkcd.
23:06:03 <Wareya> haha
23:06:03 <ehird_> (In case you haven't seen the log, we've been discussing the glorious matter of how fucked up my life is.)
23:13:15 <augur> cpressey: turing complete computer games?
23:13:58 <augur> GoL!
23:14:11 <oklopol> it's a game?
23:14:11 <MissPiggy> lol
23:14:15 <oklopol> oh...
23:14:18 <augur> GAME of life
23:14:21 <augur> OBVIOUSLY
23:14:38 <oklopol> ah okay i thought you were referring to a possibly existing computer version of the board game
23:14:45 <cpressey> augur: I know one time I was on here, long ago, people were discussing whether Transportation Tycoon is TC
23:14:52 <ehird_> augur: so uh are you remotely interested in how fucked up my life is?
23:14:53 <oklopol> but i guess that's an even better joke
23:14:54 <augur> chess is turing ocmplete
23:15:05 <augur> ehird_: always!
23:15:08 <cpressey> scarf claims to have a proof that Rubicon is TC.
23:15:18 <oklopol> wp says chess's extensions to an infinite grid are exponential time, but not tc
23:15:27 <augur> oklopol: true!
23:15:28 <ehird_> augur: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa.
23:15:37 <cpressey> Yeah, I've also seen Minesweeper called TC, but I'm suspicious
23:15:39 <ehird_> augur: And I'm not joking, or doing some emo shit when I say fucked up.
23:16:02 <oklopol> exponential time to do something, i have no idea how exactly these extensions work, probably pretty much anything gives the same results
23:16:11 <cpressey> Obviously AsciiPortal and Robozzle
23:16:40 <oklopol> cpressey: no but it was proven NP-complete
23:16:43 <oklopol> pretty simple really
23:16:50 <cpressey> There was something called Winter something or something that was like a video game version of CRobots or something
23:17:00 <MissPiggy> AsciiPortal is TC?
23:17:08 <oerjan> oklopol: exponential time in the size could still mean TC for _infinite_ size
23:17:26 <cpressey> MissPiggy: not sure if it's proven, but suspected at least
23:17:28 <oerjan> i suspect that wp really means unbounded, not infinite
23:17:30 <oklopol> err yes, i guess...
23:17:48 <oklopol> or then it means some sort of extensions to "size n"
23:17:50 <oklopol> i have no idea
23:17:55 <Wareya> you can build nand gates into asciiportal levels
23:18:02 <augur> ehird, wait, so what
23:18:11 <augur> you're being forced to go to some place?
23:18:12 <cpressey> How are you supposed to "execute" chess?  Nondeterministically make every possible move?
23:18:16 <augur> why? how did this come about?
23:19:17 <ehird_> augur: I think I answered that in the channel too. let me try and find the log
23:19:29 * augur hugs ehird_ :(
23:19:34 <cpressey> I've often wanted to make a game based on a cross between Befunge and Paradroid, too.  That could be TC, it just... doesn't exist.
23:19:35 <augur> well i think you're normal. and pretty cool.
23:19:38 <augur> if a bit girly. ;P
23:20:30 <ehird_> augur: anyway it came about for complicated reasons...
23:20:34 <ehird_> i can't really explain
23:20:40 <zzo38> How can chess be turing complete? I think of [[InfChessPro]] but I don't know if you can assume such things
23:20:50 <zzo38> And I have the same question, how to "execute" chess?
23:20:54 <Sgeo> RoboZZle is TC
23:21:11 <cpressey> Carnage Heart, that's it, not Winter anything
23:21:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: I can believe that, it has stacks and also sometimes command for change color of a square, too.
23:21:55 <Sgeo> Langton's Ant was implemented in it
23:22:00 <Sgeo> That means it's TC, I think?
23:22:05 <ehird_> augur: #esoteric-priv if you want to discuss it...
23:22:31 <Wareya> sorry if I sound snoopy, but I just want to listen
23:22:47 <ehird_> That's okay. Just don't tell anyone else...
23:22:58 <Wareya> no problem
23:23:06 <ehird_> It's public enough to anyone in here given the pastie link.
23:25:55 <zzo38> Please show me how Langton's Ant is implemented in it?
23:26:10 <oklopol> are you serious?
23:26:14 <MissPiggy> zzo38, I think it's pretty trivial
23:26:18 <oerjan> a pretty obvious way to ask whether a game like chess is TC is "what is the result (white/black wins, tie) from a given position with perfect play by both players?"
23:26:22 <MissPiggy> since it has got a paint command
23:26:22 <oklopol> hence "are you serious"
23:26:27 <MissPiggy> so you just do the obvious thing
23:27:07 <oerjan> then you need to encode your computation into the initial position.
23:27:07 <oklopol> yeah, basically there are commands that exactly correspond to the rules of the ant.
23:27:15 * MissPiggy doesn't think you can encode arbitrary diophantine equations in chess
23:27:26 <cpressey> oerjan: I think that's equivalent to what I said?  Nondeterministically make every possible move.
23:27:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Chess halts given perfect play.
23:27:35 <MissPiggy> zzo38 did that actually help at all?
23:27:35 <Wareya> How do you "execute" chess?
23:27:43 <pikhq> Actually, even without perfect play, it must halt.
23:27:58 <MissPiggy> pikhq what if you have infinite peices
23:28:26 <oerjan> pikhq: we are naturally assuming an infinite extension here
23:28:27 <ehird_> pikhq: how come
23:28:31 <ehird_> move forwards and backwards forever
23:28:33 <Sgeo> I'd sell a finite amount on eBay at regular intervals
23:28:34 <coppro> 50 move rule
23:28:36 <ehird_> eh there's probably some dumb-ass limit rule
23:28:39 <pikhq> ehird_: 50 move rule.
23:28:39 <zzo38> Chess will always halt if you use 50 move rule
23:28:39 <ehird_> coppro: ding
23:28:50 <coppro> if you have infinite pieces and infinite space, though, you're fine
23:28:54 <cpressey> :(
23:28:57 <coppro> because the 50 moves reset every time a pawn moves
23:29:03 <coppro> so a pawn could keep moving forever
23:29:04 <pikhq> Also, given perfect play, such an instance will never happen.
23:29:18 <coppro> threefold repetition wouldn't happen in perfect play
23:29:27 <cpressey> Right, let's extend to an infinite chessboard -- but don't drop the 50 move rule!  :)
23:29:34 <coppro> :P
23:29:46 <coppro> Let's also include every variant piece!
23:30:22 <pikhq> Also, I'm pretty sure an infinite chessboard would make it easy to guarantee checkmate.
23:30:42 <oklopol> even without the 50 rule, the game only has a finite amount of positions, and therefore doesn't allow any computation.
23:31:14 <pikhq> And since perfect play aims for checkmate...
23:31:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:31:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is true of course, there is only a finite amount of positions, which is what I was thinking of at first
23:32:16 <zzo38> It is possible some variants might be different, though
23:33:40 <cpressey> I think you need an unbounded sized board just to say you can handle "input" of arbitrary sizes.
23:34:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!).
23:34:36 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:34:56 <oklopol> you need an unbounded board just to have computation in the mathematical sense.
23:35:27 -!- coppro has joined.
23:35:41 <zzo38> Yes, I think you would, but there are variants with unbounded boards.
23:35:47 <oklopol> if the system only allows for a finite amount of initial positions, it is algorithmically trivial to solve absolutely any question about it.
23:36:23 <oklopol> if (board looks like this) { ... } else if (board looks like that) { ... } etc
23:37:59 <cpressey> oklopol: I catch your meaning, but I wonder if I can't come up with a counterexample that exploits your choice of words...
23:38:15 <coppro> ehird_: Before I go, I'd like to run an idea by you; would you be interested in a program that would provide for a tiled display of ASCII source?
23:39:12 <oklopol> cpressey: impossible!
23:39:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, hi!
23:39:58 <AnMaster> ehird_, what kept you away before?
23:40:01 <AnMaster> welcome back
23:40:15 <cpressey> oklopol: Say I have a 2-symbol UTM, and I say that you can feed it any of the first 600 billion billion prime numbers to it, in binary.  Then I ask you to tell me which of those cause the UTM to halt, and which cause it to loop forever.
23:40:22 <coppro> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
23:40:49 <cpressey> The system has a finite amount of initial positions...
23:41:04 <oklopol> ah but that *is* algorithmically trivial
23:41:28 <oklopol> for each of those numbers, it either stops or not
23:41:38 <oklopol> and there's a finite amount of them.
23:41:47 -!- ehird_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:42:13 <cpressey> It would be trivial to represent the algorithm, yes, but not to discover the correct one.  I guess you meant the former.
23:42:45 <AnMaster> coppro, hrrm
23:43:19 * Sgeo doesn't see a Scroll Lock button on this keyboard
23:43:32 <oklopol> cpressey: just going by the rigorous definition of "algorithmically trivial"
23:43:39 -!- ehird has joined.
23:43:49 <oklopol> wb
23:45:20 <AnMaster> ehird, wv!
23:45:21 <AnMaster> wb*
23:45:27 -!- AnMaster has set topic: RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:45:43 <cpressey> oklopol: and an interesting definition of "solve" :)
23:46:14 <cpressey> clearly not "answer correctly"
23:46:15 <oklopol> how is it not a solution if you can write a O(1) algo for it? ;)
23:47:34 <oklopol> the algo is clearly O(1) (hidden constant 600 billion billion)
23:48:05 <AnMaster> cpressey, oklopol: what are you trying to solve?
23:48:09 <zzo38> http://chessvariants.org/shape.dir/infiniteboard.html
23:48:27 <oklopol> nothing really
23:49:00 <cpressey> Well, I've solved the P=?NP problem, then.  It is either yes or no.
23:49:01 <Sgeo> It depends on what the meaning of "trying" is
23:49:30 <oklopol> the P?=NP problem is algorithmically trivial, yes
23:49:51 <cpressey> And thus it is solved.
23:49:52 <oklopol> this is the first thing you hear in a course about computability
23:50:02 <oklopol> oh okay i see what you mean
23:50:37 <oklopol> hmm
23:50:46 <AnMaster> cpressey: I assume not for any useful values of solved
23:50:59 <zzo38> I have also read about chess variants where the number of rows is 2 times omega and that the number of columns is very infinite
23:51:09 <cpressey> I think there's maybe a linguistic issue about "solve" versus "has a solution"?
23:51:19 <oklopol> okay i don't think i've said anything incorrect
23:51:44 <oklopol> algorithmically trivial to solve != possible to solve
23:51:59 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, you have recently returned?
23:52:08 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa
23:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, someone else (coppero?) linked it above
23:52:24 <AnMaster> so read it
23:52:24 <ehird> Okay.
23:52:28 <AnMaster> ehird, poor you
23:52:45 <ehird> Poor me.
23:52:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also: emigrate to somewhere saner
23:52:55 <zzo38> I have heard of ideas for chess variants where white pieces go forward in time, and black pieces go backward in time. Maybe we can even make a esolang with similar ideas?
23:52:56 <ehird> My plan.
23:52:57 <cpressey> oklopol: OK, maybe.
23:52:57 <augur> linguistics!? :o
23:53:00 <ehird> Sweden or Norway, most likely.
23:53:13 <ehird> Well, our plan; my parents' too.
23:53:17 <AnMaster> ehird, Sweden is shit nowdays. Norway is expensive to live in
23:53:25 <AnMaster> well, Sweden isn't as bad as UK
23:53:27 <AnMaster> but still
23:53:32 <ehird> How's Sweden shit? You may have an incredibly skewed view; you guys voted for the pirate party
23:53:35 <oklopol> cpressey: just a matter of definitions, i love nothing more than to use a completely counterintuitive definition as counterintuitively as possible.
23:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, FRA, IPRED
23:53:46 <AnMaster> to mention two things
23:53:51 <oklopol> well okay i love many things
23:54:07 <ehird> AnMaster: the whole world is going that way
23:54:13 <ehird> well
23:54:16 <ehird> fra, okay, sure, that's bad
23:54:24 <ehird> but sweden doesn't have internet censorship right? finland does
23:54:27 <FireFly> Nighty
23:54:32 <ehird> norway is expensive sure but surely not that much more expensive than sweden
23:54:36 <ehird> the three counrties are really similar right?
23:54:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc there is/was some sort of non-enforced recommendation of child porn sites that isp could blacklist
23:55:03 <AnMaster> or such
23:55:06 <AnMaster> vague memory
23:55:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about Bolivia? It might be saner
23:55:57 <oerjan> O_o
23:56:10 <ehird> I think it is what AnMaster would call a joke.
23:56:17 <oerjan> ah.
23:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, no
23:56:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, there was.
23:56:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Do note that that's one of the things the Piratbyran opposed.
23:57:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, but this all goes at EU level nowdays
23:57:19 <pikhq> And that the other political parties adopted as part of their platform in response.
23:57:19 <oklopol> scandinavia is one big happy family really
23:57:22 <AnMaster> there is basically no choice at any lower level for such things
23:57:38 <pikhq> ... Things inside of Sweden are at EU level?
23:57:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:57:46 <pikhq> Not just EU laws?
23:57:48 <ehird> I can't knock the EU if it's going to be saving my ass with free immigration.
23:57:58 <pikhq> :P
23:58:34 <coppro> ehird: did you see my idea?
23:58:35 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Not just EU laws? <-- I referred to EU laws
23:58:36 <AnMaster> as in
23:58:48 <AnMaster> FRA and IPRED are required laws by EU
23:58:49 <ehird> coppro: which?
23:58:49 <pikhq> ehird: More like "near-citizenship".
23:58:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ah.
23:58:57 <ehird> not fra surely
23:59:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in, the country has to implement something like it
23:59:06 <ehird> i don't think the eu would condone warrantless wiretapping much less require it
23:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure yes
23:59:10 <AnMaster> well
23:59:14 <AnMaster> something very close
23:59:24 <AnMaster> Sweden went way further though iirc
23:59:38 <coppro> ehird: I'm thinking of writing a program to tilize text; it would have nice features like the ability to run on updating text (e.g. a cellular automaton) and maybe even have an editor