< 1265847332 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265847903 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Haskell intrinsically asymptotically slower than C for two-dimensional cellular automata? < 1265847927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intrinsically? I doubt it. < 1265847944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically? Likely. < 1265847954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do some crazy stuff with C. < 1265847987 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like use random-access mutable state :) < 1265847998 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc, lazy data struturse are asymptotically slower than mutable ones < 1265847999 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, crazy! < 1265848000 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265848007 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc, good thing haskell has mutation :P < 1265848010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that in haskell too you know < 1265848019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: And Haskell allows strict data structures. < 1265848028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :) < 1265848029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And mutable ones, too. < 1265848037 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking about a well known theorem < 1265848039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in computing < 1265848042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not haskell < 1265848056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so well known that I don't know it's name or who proved it.. < 1265848058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaguely rings a bell < 1265848060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And GHC will often compile things into direct mutation. < 1265848063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone help me?? < 1265848070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when laziness doesn't change semantics, IIRC) < 1265848079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nick what's-his-name did a proof that sounds like what you're talking about < 1265848095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nicholas Pippenger < 1265848130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That LISP as a model of computation is slower than Turing machines < 1265848143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, similar, but not quite < 1265848152 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesnt have a publications list? grrr < 1265848224 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see if I can find the paper. Unfortunately, gotta go now. Later. < 1265848227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265848230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah I thought this was #haskell < 1265848236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: if by asymptotically slower you mean more than a constant factor, then i don't see why haskell should be that for 2d ca's < 1265848247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, just a bunch of Haskellians in here. < 1265848253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265848281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might need to force some strictness not to get unexpected pauses between things, though < 1265848307 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it isn't? < 1265848320 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265848328 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this is #esoteric < 1265848329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265848359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1265848637 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he can rightly call himself a Haskeller
< 1265848660 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Haskell-foo is somewhat weak < 1265848755 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because jix never talks anymore, I've created virtujix. < 1265848762 0 :virtujix!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265848762 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re == re-hi == hi again. < 1265848775 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Are you a suitable replacement for jix? < 1265848776 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I need a name for i that would be just a replacement table. < 1265848938 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see nobody cares about virtujix :( < 1265848943 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: It's OK, /I/ care. < 1265848943 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You start with a whirl debugger with a normal directory structure is a better form of du (both you in english) and i think i'm an atheist for the macro assembler i'm working on my 1ghz g4 so that sounds ok. < 1265849041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265849048 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix loll < 1265849054 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1265849067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to put a ':' < 1265849068 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1265849070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: loll < 1265849070 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I have a 3 liner or so with this thing. < 1265849076 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: tel me a story < 1265849076 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Are you a new story. < 1265849081 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: no < 1265849081 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes but 3gb are in a fast div by 2. < 1265849089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's so long since jix talked that we've forgotten him < 1265849094 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265849100 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't forgotten! < 1265849611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Have any new esoteric programming projects? < 1265849612 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I did programming for the problem of using different vcs for different projects. < 1265849628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Well, that's not particularly esoteric, but what did you come up with? < 1265849628 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (I have no way to me), we got 1000eur for our robot team, and i think having a normal strategy .. But it wasn't able to compute the gcd of two particles.. Let's assume it can work right from the most esoteric.. Uhm.. < 1265849654 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Did you get lost there? < 1265849655 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I need to fix this! Spambots: all your base are belong to me is the link (i lost it. < 1265849670 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265849696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: What is the gcd of two particles? < 1265849697 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But it has an fpga i used two 1980 shooters as a file has more particles. < 1265849707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods sagely.
< 1265849961 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265850423 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265850505 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265850511 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265851131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/b0hi4/can_haz_reddit_clone_in_lolcode_in_some_amount_of/c0kc0fj < 1265851243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ du -h brain/jix/ brain/gregor/ < 1265851243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11M brain/jix/ < 1265851243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14M brain/gregor/ < 1265851247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And mine's not even done training yet! < 1265851304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: so what is your opinion about the recent revamp of TC definiton? < 1265851344 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a recent revamp of TC definition? < 1265851374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was _trying_ to figure out if it was a real person or not < 1265851385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was too sneaky, left before I started with the hard questions < 1265851392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the conclusion was that TC was pretty ill-defined if you look too closely at it < 1265851541 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides that he hates WinGHCi
< 1265851547 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a tendency to get wonky < 1265851591 0 :virtujix!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265851591 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done: http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck#hello_world.21. < 1265851615 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is crappy BF code common? < 1265851642 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of writing a thing to essentially rewrite those blocks of BF code that only contain the characters <>-+ < 1265851655 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been done many times < 1265851680 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww < 1265851689 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you were referring to virtujix? Or to me? < 1265851694 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/you were/were you/ < 1265851704 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: To you. < 1265851713 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I brought virtujix because fax wanted me to :P < 1265851831 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But has it been done.. in Haskell? < 1265851838 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is slightly insane
< 1265851887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every slightly-optimizing brainfuck compiler does it < 1265851900 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about outputting to BF code? < 1265851916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've seen that < 1265851950 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels useless
< 1265851955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265851963 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many tools are there to turn BF code into PSOX-compatible BF code? < 1265851986 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does "PSOX-compatible" mean "Without outputting any \0s"? < 1265852027 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, if you had that plus the PSOX handshake, that would work < 1265852042 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of just escaping everything, though < 1265852070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably difficult if you don't also make them take 2x memory or something. < 1265852086 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION had no problem with making them take 2x memory
< 1265852146 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265852369 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Nobody seems to want to talk to you! < 1265852370 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wildhalcyon: i talk about plangebäude and plangruppen-bezeichnungen without telling me what the hell plangebäude are? < 1265852382 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix, do you love me? < 1265852382 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Ihope: i hate you. < 1265852429 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch! < 1265852441 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1265852607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: in any case haskell _should_ be excellent for doing such a thing if you choose to do it < 1265852767 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure how he'd make a bidirectional list
< 1265852788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need one < 1265852803 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you absolutely must, you can have two lists and shuffle elements from one to the other < 1265852836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use two lists, one for the part previous and one for the part after (this is known as a _zipper_ of lists) < 1265852978 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I think http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zipper may be exactly what I need < 1265852984 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I haven't started writing any of this yet < 1265853047 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data BFCmd = BFAlter Integer | BFMove Integer | BFIn | BFOut | BFLoop [BFCmd] | BFComment String < 1265853056 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq wrote something similar elsewhere < 1265853070 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except without the BFComment < 1265853083 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just plain BFAdd | BFSub etc < 1265853121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1265853186 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should use Integral instead of Integer < 1265853276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It was a single IRC line, whaddya expect? < 1265853309 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, should show actually turn a BFCmd into something like BFAdd, or just + < 1265853342 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265853354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: え〜と〜……日本語を話せるか。 < 1265853368 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Good timing :P < 1265853375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Curses. < 1265853377 0 :virtugor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265853378 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for [], i still need to go with greetings, personified globular iron construct orbiting sol!\r. < 1265853386 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1265853388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: え〜と〜……日本語を話せるか。 < 1265853388 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've converted a myvu crystal. < 1265853389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What an entrance. < 1265853426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Tell me about pikhq. < 1265853427 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Pikhq: why are you doing on #esoteric or with you, but you also have a clue why it's fekky. < 1265853430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you rarely want to redefine show < 1265853438 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's supposed to produce valid Haskell < 1265853443 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1265853447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Tell me about Gregor. < 1265853448 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and nobody will indulge themselves in the blood out of you. < 1265853468 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that sounds like something I'd say. < 1265853509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to redefine it, you'd probably have it produce bfParse "code" < 1265853764 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265853773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I should use Integral instead of Integer <-- i suspect you are thinking of Int, Integral is a type class (also you probably want Integer) < 1265853808 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The process that's feeding the complete logs into a MegaHAL is only just now through 2005 ... < 1265853816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I want to be able to use this thing with Ints, when for example the user wants the cell to be restri.. wait < 1265853834 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not using Integer in all cases would mean that large numbers of +'s won't work < 1265853834 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1265853908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265855170 0 :ozwolverine!~johnny@186.81.109.121 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265855194 0 :ozwolverine!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, check this nice site: http://www.ponleestiloatuvida.com/?opcion=pp&key=VUlEPTQ4NTUmbj1qbw== < 1265855247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, spammers. < 1265855280 0 :ozwolverine!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265855706 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why was I expecting GHC's C output to be readable? < 1265855721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madness < 1265855747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hast thou not heard of ye Evil Mangler? < 1265855798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's before the mangler. < 1265855806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265855820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mangler is done on the assembly. < 1265855834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265855835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1265855838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265855843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: The Evil Mangler, BTW, removes all C stack usage. < 1265855848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hides in the corner now
< 1265855852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things. < 1265856804 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265856867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run, it's a Java-er! < 1265856880 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Run, it's a Java-er! < 1265856882 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But java is a bf interpreter in a public setting, and talking loudly would annoy people? < 1265856882 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will be tutoring Java soon
< 1265856891 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, well put, virtugor. < 1265857090 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265857136 0 :virtugor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265857136 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fizzie: you're welcome. < 1265857141 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265857146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor is now 100% more annoying. < 1265857169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it will respond to about 1% of messages even if they don't specifically message it :P < 1265857185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoorah. < 1265857199 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming I didn't miscode it, of course! < 1265857215 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to play with SDL_TFF < 1265857217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you accidentally made it 100% _less_ annoying < 1265857255 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... oops, I did miscode it :P < 1265857296 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265857316 0 :virtugor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265857317 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only difference is whether we are engaged in a chroot, but the pattern of greetings to you personally. < 1265857344 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Now will you be nice and respond randomly and nonsensically to a totally inexplicable assortment of messages? < 1265857348 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I sort of sounds like quite the assortment of messages? < 1265857361 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Yes. Yes you are. < 1265857361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brilliant, Virtugor. < 1265857363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take that as a "yes" < 1265857364 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No, from that page i would have to look at me unless they know me :p. < 1265857383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a "Sorry, please try again" command for these Markov chain bots :P < 1265857387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're doomed. DOOMED. < 1265857531 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The full brain is now 100M :P < 1265857570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which incidentally is quite similar to DOOM < 1265857577 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doomy dooms of doom < 1265857813 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glooomy glooms of gloom :( < 1265857838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit i sucked myself into tvtropes with that phrase < 1265858085 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/SCRMC.jpg < 1265858089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a sunset < 1265858117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before i click, is it a doomy one? < 1265858151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1265858196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good. < 1265858207 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who else needs a virtual person. < 1265858209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, definitely augur. < 1265858221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i mention the photo was taken on MARS < 1265858223 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Do you think you would be super, boot a uml every time i mention the photo was taken on mars. < 1265858286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. no you didn't. < 1265858289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now i did < 1265858313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the red planet has blue sunsets? < 1265858415 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't have a virtual person
< 1265858549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently so! < 1265858910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION continues to train his virtual augur.
< 1265858926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual gregor, you mean < 1265858934 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a virtual Gregor. < 1265858939 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Introduce yourself! < 1265858940 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Please, introduce yourself by filling out this 15-question survey. The answers don't need to read or write arbitrary files, or run code and then myself. < 1265859012 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can they read and write arbitrary files, if I want them to? MUAHAHA < 1265859188 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor hasn't interjected randomly yet, but then there haven't been 100 messages yet ... < 1265859447 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265859477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yes it did < 1265859485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so it did :P < 1265859496 0 :virtufive!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265859496 0 :virtufive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh is that the marking indicates the "mood" of the clause for this sentence ok? Itll demonstrate that theres a single one inch long gigantic dildo and last night, and it still looks like so. < 1265859515 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, great entrance :P < 1265859535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very augurial < 1265859797 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't let it into Sine pls < 1265859819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I discovered another AW enthusiast < 1265859826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: is that an attempt at reverse psychology? < 1265859846 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, o.O who? < 1265859854 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is e a citizen? < 1265859872 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :name's BigAnon; he's over in ##c++. I don't know what that means, but apparently he needs to lean programming to help moderate something < 1265860020 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265860302 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5871:273b::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265860727 0 :virtufive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265860758 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265860792 0 :virtuLORD!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265860792 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For thy name's sake thou wilt hear hi voice, and said to him: master, speak to this people with their heart, and his obstetric hand brought forth thy hand maid speak one word of the acts of simon, and they buried him in jerusalem: whom they killed, hanging him upon the jordan over against the philistines, and i shall have no covering for destruction. < 1265860810 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amen. < 1265860876 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265860877 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265860905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the smoke you smell is Gregor being hit by lightning btw < 1265860926 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, some people may consider a bible-based chatbot to be offensive :P < 1265860953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1265861219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: You must let oerjan see the light! < 1265861220 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You must let oerjan see the way of his servants: set on a certain figure of the light: and there fell of israel i have removed him, he is my god, out of which he pitched his tent, in the twentieth year, from the abundance surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts from this people, who have not put me in this order. < 1265861246 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amen. < 1265861333 0 :doodle77!~roflcopte@user-12ld96f.cable.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265861485 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have started a debate in ##C++ about what esoteric means < 1265861507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: did you feed him a copy of the Bible? < 1265861526 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I /might/ have :P < 1265861540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: What sayest thou? < 1265861541 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And if i be wicked, woe unto me: and now thou sayest to me: thou shalt multiply strength in thy own eye? Hypocrite, cast first the children be led away with the lord said to him: it is thou, o lord, thy people, the children of israel, to play the harlot with stones and pearls, having a golden girdle. < 1265861559 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD, who created evil? < 1265861561 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: And the days of simon, and his servants said to him: when thou wast created, in the multitude of the evil out of impatience or pusillanimity, but out of the council: men, brethren, i know not what evil shall be as the lord their god, and look upon me, because i am fled from before him saying: prophesy: who is the day of my equals in my flesh, why are you fearful? Have you still your heart shall utter perverse things. < 1265861572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got an idea < 1265861579 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the holy texts of every major religion < 1265861586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feed them into a Markov chain bot < 1265861591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and start a new religion based on the results < 1265861602 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like "thou shalt multiply strength in thy own eye?" < 1265861753 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265861768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure to include the necronomicon < 1265861817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the OT documents. < 1265861823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OT documents? < 1265861824 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Documents of wisdom and power of the lord. < 1265861825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a religion without persecution. < 1265861834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Operating Thetan. < 1265861849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265861852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id est, the holy works of Scientology. < 1265861915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That response of virtuLORD was pretty much the best thing ever :P < 1265861922 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265861950 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265861965 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1265862086 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: Tell me about Scientology. < 1265862087 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You know that i release to you the way which now i shall have done as he went up into an angel of the tabernacle of the letter might be crucified. And their hands give ye glory to him, and they that remained of the holy ghost, that he may be honoured by the works of scientology. < 1265862105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite the sentence. < 1265862186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: so you mean scientology is fine as long as you like being crucified? < 1265862188 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And i called upon me, and to captivity, and thou be afraid to be crucified. < 1265862201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: yeah a bit, i'd say < 1265862202 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Begging will be a reward of leaving all things, and this city a wilderness, and that daniel should be expended for thy brother being impoverished sell himself to the people: i will suffer death, or in a clay ground, between socoth and sartham. < 1265862679 0 :doodle77!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.4/2008111312] < 1265862947 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265863051 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: anything on the subject of the meaning of life? < 1265863053 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Be ye subject therefore to simon peter. And peter remembered the word of the life of the meaning of life? < 1265863093 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: well is it anything to do with god? < 1265863095 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Our fathers have sinned, we have no king before him the chief priests and laity to their home, they will heap evils upon the sea brought them, they passed to the elders of madian, was zambri the son of god? < 1265863180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Andrew Plotkin has a quote in his signature, from a markov bot trained simultaneously on the Bible and Alice in Wonderland < 1265863212 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just gave some bad advice in ##C++
< 1265863220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265863230 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it, "Use C++"? < 1265863235 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265863237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it was to use globals < 1265863250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, can you please come up with a better answer? < 1265863266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use templates? < 1265863267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pass it as an argument? < 1265863281 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, aw_event_set() needs a function that takes 0 arguments < 1265863282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't actually know c++
< 1265863303 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Oh. Then yeah, globals :( < 1265863330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no answer with classes or functions returning functions? Although this guy is a beginner, so < 1265863346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, best not to overcomplicate this, I guess < 1265863350 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: not if it expects a callback function < 1265863356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which, additionally, should be extern "C") < 1265863364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Rejoice in that. < 1265863385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wait, the callback function needs to be extern "C"d? < 1265863401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: If the library is a C library, which I assume it is < 1265863415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is < 1265863420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is itself extern "C"'d < 1265863426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yes, it needs to be extern "C"'d. < 1265863433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ has a different calling convention. < 1265863435 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, then the callback must also be extern "C" < 1265863436 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Where their worm dieth not, and she said: verily, i say to you, which stood in all the things also to be extern "c. < 1265863442 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*may have < 1265863484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His callback uses a bunch of C++ stuff < 1265863496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's perfectly valid. < 1265863512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extern "C" only affects the external parts of the function; they can still use C++ features inside < 1265863514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just so long as the callback can be called from C. < 1265863521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sounds like the problem is that C functions cannot simulate full closures? i recall haskell's ffi implementation requires self-modifying code because of that < 1265863536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's the problem < 1265863558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, want to actually help out in ##C++ ? < 1265863560 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And aduram, and lachis, and to his friends and neighbours, saying to the help of the city of letters. . .Perhaps so called from c. < 1265863567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no thanks < 1265863606 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What will happen if extern "C" {} isn't used? < 1265863609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: C functions are implemented using nothing more than a string of machine code that uses a set amount of stack. < 1265863620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Then it's undefined behavior. < 1265863701 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actually, a strict interpretation of the standard would say that it's ill-formed < 1265863850 0 :Biganon!~Biganon@rps2149.ovh.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265864346 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265864720 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265864823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : days since last sighting < 1265865465 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underflow now < 1265866052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sideflow < 1265866298 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aroundflow < 1265866895 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :workflow < 1265867475 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265868281 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265868418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265868517 0 :Biganon!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265869759 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265870763 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've created the ugliest bash makefile generator known to man. *evil laugh* < 1265870774 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265870850 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate makefiles < 1265870946 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnest part, I think: deps=$(egrep '^#include "' $i | sed -re 's/#include "([^\"]+)"/\1/' | sed -e :a -e '/$/N;s/\r\n/ /;ta'); < 1265870982 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it recursive? < 1265871028 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. single makefile for a nest of directories. < 1265871071 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't generate the whole makefile per se, just the g++ -c listings < 1265871435 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. I should probably replace the second sed with a tr < 1265872442 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265873079 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265873458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265873774 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874245 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874545 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265874713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265874733 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874919 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1265875199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265875200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265875843 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265876682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265876816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 3 days since last alise sighting | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265878543 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265878618 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265880784 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-102-163.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265884673 0 :MigoMipo!~3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-gadgkxifzfewyiet JOIN :#esoteric < 1265885737 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265886092 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265887917 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265888530 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265890528 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265890978 0 :lifthrasiir!scn0NDhp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265891895 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-10-144.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265892313 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265895449 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265897850 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265898728 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265899231 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265899369 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265902725 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265902959 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for when MissPiggy comes back: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=244798 < 1265903235 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265903730 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2110 < 1265903731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA < 1265903754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you have actual access to that? < 1265903864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incase anyone _doesnt_ have acm access: http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Pure%20versus%20Impure%20Lisp%20-%20Pippenger.pdf < 1265904047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I used to, but not anymore. I have a saved copy, but I can't access it right now. So -- thanks for that link. < 1265904054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265904063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have access to ACM Portal and JSTOR < 1265904076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Project Muse, and a bunch of other places as well < 1265904080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ask me for anything < 1265904146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.last.fm/music/Alvin+Lucier/_/I+Am+Sitting+In+A+Room < 1265904909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im very tempted to listen to this while im tripping < 1265905683 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-49-113.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265906337 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265906346 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265906404 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: In case you haven't read the logs -- http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Pure%20versus%20Impure%20Lisp%20-%20Pippenger.pdf < 1265906510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suddenly has a vague recall that pure lisp is still strict, and that there are doubts about the case with laziness
< 1265906561 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be < 1265906747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of its basic elements are frank imitations of corresponding elements of < 1265906748 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 􏱋-calculus < 1265906753 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda-calculus < 1265906805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's not the first part that is vague, thank you < 1265907169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1265907563 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265907738 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265908455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *never* thought I would miss Perl < 1265908538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the perl of programming languages < 1265908638 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265910923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265911172 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in cast you were wondering, cpressey found it, i hosted the non-ACM link < 1265911190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey and I are awesome. oh yes. < 1265911314 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265911429 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265911479 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265911826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, who was that virtujix? A bot? < 1265911841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't have time to read the complete scrollback
< 1265912257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265912367 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265912947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric : RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 4 days since last alise sighting | 6 days since last ehird sighting | 16 days since last calamari sighting | 205 days since last graue sighting | 1159 days since last kipple sighting | 2225 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2582 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265913609 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265913882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is starting to agree with Steve Yegge: there is something very, very wrong with Python's culture. I don't agree with him about what's wrong with it. And it only has an indirect effect on the design of the language itself, of course. But still, ... yeeeesh.
< 1265913902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me about it < 1265913931 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION spreads some python hate around
< 1265913998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Was that a literal or rhetorical response? < 1265914006 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265914012 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*headdesk* < 1265914025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know more, what do you find wrong with python culture < 1265914062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm still trying to figure out what it is. < 1265914112 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265914153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it < 1265914275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was reading the documentation for the pickle module earlier. < 1265914322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something just backwards about how it's written. It's not that I can't read it, it's that it seems to be written with a completely different sense of "what's the most relevant?" than most readers would (I'm guessing) have. < 1265914347 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, have you ever heard of Grice's maxims? About relevance in conversation. It's a bit like it's bending those. < 1265914391 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I noticed that lots of Python documentation has the same feel to it. < 1265914404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1265914413 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, it could be just me. < 1265914437 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is just you < 1265914463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steve Y's theory is that the Python community has no sense of humor (ironic, considering the origin of the name) and is not self-critical. Could be that. < 1265914515 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265914552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even want to get into the *design* of the pickle module... it makes Java's serialization look like fine silk in comparison. < 1265914572 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a lot of people just quote monty python verbatim, and laugh, but that's not really in the spirit of monty python is it < 1265914606 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point. < 1265914649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there's the fact that they decided to call it "pickling" instead of some more widely accepted term like "serialization". < 1265914690 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And justify that choice by saying "...to avoid confusion." < 1265914729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think python is a trap to suck newbies away from the path of light < 1265914836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be. Or maybe it's a plot to get a large number of 0-length files named "__init__.py" onto people's filesystems. < 1265914857 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is even more scary < 1265915042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's my thought experiment: It's a WYSIWIG WIZARD that takes some options like Syntax: algol, prolog, lisp, ML Execution: strict, lazy, nondetermininstic and so on, maybe some special options too: [-] lambda [-] syntax macros [-] textual macros < 1265915072 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first idea was that when you click 'go' it just produces an interpreter < 1265915087 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's more fun thinking about other things you could produce instead of an interpreter < 1265915115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it that the set of operations is (aside from whatever the special options might do) fixed? < 1265915156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, "WYSIWIG"? What You See Is What I Get? :) < 1265915193 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh geez, WYSIWIG is totally the wrong term -- you're right < 1265915204 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265915226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses WYSIWIG to take over cpressey's computer.
< 1265915251 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265915283 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265915333 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's lack of semi-colons makes me uneasy - it's like standing at the edge of a cliff with no guard-rail... :-S < 1265915337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265915356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I have autojoin, it just takes a while since the server has to process requests for 11 channels < 1265915363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265915385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All is forgiven ;( < 1265915387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1265915493 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: semicolons are optional, you're free to put them in < 1265915548 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua's optional semicolons are a bit more worrisome, as there's no offside rule (indentation-based-syntax) in Lua. < 1265915589 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think about my ex. < 1265915682 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh he's okay i guess? < 1265915723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really do mean WYSIWYG, it would be entertaining to see a program I've written switch between syntaxes on-screen. < 1265915769 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or MissPiggy's ex = KermitTheFrog < 1265915770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could be. Or maybe it's a plot to get a large number of 0-length files named "__init__.py" onto people's filesystems. <-- what would the point of that be for python modules? < 1265915779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you didn't need that module in general < 1265915789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what it is used for actually < 1265915798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It makes the directory a package, so that you can say dir.module < 1265915840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugly approach if you ask me... < 1265915864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265915866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it can include startup code for the modules in that dir < 1265915889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just do that thing for any directory? < 1265915909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relative the module search path < 1265915912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what i mean < 1265915932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Like Perl (I think) does? Sure. < 1265915949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you specify foo.bar and your module search path is: /blah:/quux then it would look for /blah/foo/bar.py and /quux/foo/bar.py < 1265915999 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265915999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, python's approach would be the same plus check "does a file __init_.py exist? < 1265916002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1265916089 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, python's vesion does let you say "import dir" (which will import the __init__.py file in that dir), which makes it easier to turn a module into a package at some later point. < 1265916136 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overall, I'd much rather have module/package names independent of my filesystem layout though, at least potentially. < 1265916176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so how would it locate packages and modules then? < 1265916204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some kind of configuration file. It could fall back to some regular mapping if the file doesn't specify. < 1265916208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, some special file could be used it you needed init stuff or that thing with import dir < 1265916236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stupid bit is when you end up with zero length such files < 1265916258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is an easy way to solve that < 1265916264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add a license boilerplate in it < 1265916267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1265916277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265916353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may complain about Python, but it's not like it's C++ or SOAP. < 1265916382 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION starts screaming uncontrollably at the thought of SOAP libraries implemented in C++
< 1265916402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOAP isn't a programming language afaik? < 1265916407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather, some sort of RPC < 1265916428 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://72.249.21.88/nonintersecting/2006/11/15/the-s-stands-for-simple/ < 1265916429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they would use templates to implement it? < 1265916565 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh I certainly hope they would. Otherwise that beautiful template facility would just be going to waste! < 1265916785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that link, funny, yet depressing < 1265916870 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep :: Person -> IO () < 1265916881 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isTired :: Person -> IO Bool < 1265917064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would add "realistic" to the list of adjectives. < 1265917573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1265917718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont get the point of soap. < 1265917732 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That means you're sane. < 1265917739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes. < 1265917749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like, if i need to transfer data, i'll just use JSON. < 1265917758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if im feeling anti-JSON and roll my own < 1265917771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP is a nice enough literal format too. < 1265917790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to parse than JSON or XML too. < 1265918262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOAP is a Wrapper without a Cause... < 1265918834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wraps cpressey's cause
< 1265918990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return augur :: Maybe Person < 1265919028 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafePerformIO $ putStrLn "Soon, I'll only be able to communicate in Haskell" < 1265919162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1265920035 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265920406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, another thing that is wrong with python: the GIL < 1265920438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LISP is a nice enough literal format too. <-- did you mean: S-Expressions? < 1265920475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp is the language. When the same kind of thing is used as a data format it is s-expressions < 1265920481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that is a nice data format < 1265920546 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265920604 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265920826 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265920834 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265921069 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, I'm not sure. The GIL is an implementation issue (isn't it?) And one of the nicer things about Python is that it's at least *trying* to separate language from implementation. Not trying hard enough, but at least trying. < 1265921162 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, the GIL is something that sucks about CPython, surely :) < 1265921316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In FreeBSD they used to have an equivalent thing... they called the Big Giant Lock < 1265921483 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the same for linux's big kernel lock and non-preemptive-ness, but it's supposed to be mostly eliminated now afaik < 1265921531 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265922213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, pretty sure old linux kernel used to have similar issues. Back at 2.2 or so < 1265922293 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265922649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I could just declare my classes to be monkeypatchproof in production somehow, I'd feel a lot better. < 1265922766 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, ... it might be possible to write that. < 1265923038 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want more. I want values to be marked with the amount of computation that was taken to obtain them. Then I could guard against the use of e.g. computed dict keys. < 1265923159 0 :rodgort`!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265923405 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am *this* close to designing my own language. < 1265923415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your language < 1265923422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use my wizard if you like < 1265923444 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've designed a bunch already, what's one more? < 1265923449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language is the only language that isn't frustratingly stupid, of course! < 1265924077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, sadly, I think it would be too close to Scheme to justify creating it. And adoption would never reach critical mass, because Scheme Scares People. < 1265924115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265924239 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265924495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, as Deewiant says, what's one more? :) < 1265924738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" If I could just declare my classes to be monkeypatchproof in production somehow, I'd feel a lot better." <-- wth does that mean < 1265924772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: car trip < 1265924781 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Code shouldn't be allowed to monkeypatch my classes. If it tries, something ought to break. < 1265924790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "monkeypatch"? < 1265924793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except maybe in unit tests < 1265924828 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "monkeypatch". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_patch < 1265924864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so use a language compiled to machine code. Sure it can still be done there, but would be painful < 1265924886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also make a variant of befunge that forbids it < 1265924888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265924986 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION might end up monkeypatching getElementById on a school website
< 1265925003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, huh? < 1265925012 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kinda what I'm saying -- if I have to switch to a different language (not that that's practical), I might as well design my own < 1265925027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, on Chrome, getElementById doesn't seem to be working the way I think it should, and that's causing problems < 1265925047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, submit a bug report? < 1265925049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for chrome < 1265925066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that would entail making a page that can reproduce the issue < 1265925078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be helpful at least < 1265925256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But I want more. I want values to be marked with the amount of computation that was taken to obtain them. Then I could guard against the use of e.g. computed dict keys. <-- I don't get this < 1265925260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monkey patching is the self-modifying code of the scripting world. Its presence is also just as confounding to bug-hunting. < 1265925265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also __slots__ as I said < 1265925277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can live without static types, but does EVERYTHING have to be undecidable?? < 1265925296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: __slots__ will do that? < 1265925301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, at least python parses into a nice AST, with LL(1) even iirc < 1265925319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well not sure what you meant, but if I didn't completely misunderstand you: maybe < 1265925340 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265925353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I want foo(int) to be able to tell if it was called with: foo(5) or foo(2+3) < 1265925354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, __dict__ isn't used with it at least. So making up a new self.foo on the fly won't work unless __slots__ include a foo < 1265925363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a variable at least) < 1265925371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it works for functions < 1265925385 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, you mean __slots__ to guard against monkey patching. I see. < 1265925388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway, anyone could just copy your source file and make some changes, no? < 1265925393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, possibly. Or both < 1265925408 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265925411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean I want foo(int) to be able to tell if it was called with: foo(5) or foo(2+3) <-- compile time transformations? < 1265925414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't care if they copy it. < 1265925418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume those would be constant folded < 1265925421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the bytecode < 1265925444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = 3; foo(2 + a), then < 1265925451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also if they do that sort of stuff, they only have themselves to blame < 1265925452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constant folded. < 1265925458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pikhq said too < 1265925468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it would propagate the constant value of a < 1265925476 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You're thinking in a completely different paradigm -- this isn't library code for other people's use -- this is in-house stuff. < 1265925494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265925515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's some class out there that's monkeypatching my class, and my tool/app/page/whatever is crashing because of it, I can't just blame the author of the other class < 1265925524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yell at them if they screw stuff up? Plus some sort of coding guidelines might help < 1265925588 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I've found culture always changes more slowly than code. I can't just start telling everybody their code sucks. < 1265925610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I encourage it. < 1265925631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most code does, in fact, suck. < 1265925636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And quite horribly, too. < 1265925636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265925685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why academical work is best. That way you don't have to maintain it for that long, and people around you tend to not be *that* stupid. < 1265925852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, academic work is fantastic that way. It doesn't really have to work, you just have to be able to defend it from questions from people who don't really understand it anyway. < 1265925885 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265925918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boooooo < 1265925927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROFL < 1265925931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most code does in fact suck quite hard, but as for telling engineers that that applies to *their* code, I've never been able to figure out the politics of that. < 1265925935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, :D < 1265925951 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got a Google Calender reminder telling me something about "Esome, Baby!" < 1265925955 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a map link < 1265926049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, it's located in Brooklyn < 1265926062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Esome,+baby!&hl=en < 1265926097 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265926240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, http://github.com/clivecrous/vultures/raw/master/vultures/gamedata/music/lament2.ogg < 1265926399 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Are there any esolangs with non-euclidean IP space topology? < 1265926434 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what < 1265926444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're right, __slots__ is what I'm looking for. I'll probably get into arguments with other engineers though, about how "inflexible" it makes things. < 1265926459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what about C < 1265926462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, heh < 1265926473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I mean about culture :) < 1265926474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there is also a performance argument for it iirc < 1265926475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i realize it's not an esolang, but in what sense is the IP space topology euclidean? < 1265926510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, being stored in object (with an offset) rather than in a dict < 1265926514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something such < 1265926518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better check that up < 1265926522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might misremember < 1265926559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Euclid had much to say about topology < 1265926643 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-euclidian topology meaning space that's not topologically equivalent to euclidean space. < 1265926684 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including such things as toroidial spaces... < 1265926726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Oh. Well, Befunge, then? < 1265926733 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, befunge... < 1265926760 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But are there esolangs with even more "exotic" IP spaces than Befunge? < 1265926793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also tend to agree with lament that most "non-esoteric" languages have a highly non-euclidean "space" for IPs. I'm not a mathematician so I can't describe it... < 1265926880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, duh, befunge is a good example too < 1265926908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP ?? < 1265926915 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Instruction pointer. < 1265926927 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program Counter for all you 6502 fans out there < 1265927053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure 6502 isn't the only one who calls it that; the corresponding register is called PC for Z80 too, for example. < 1265927061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about a möbius (sp?) befunge < 1265927066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be interesting < 1265927095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to extend to 3d: klein befunge < 1265927100 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, simpler discrete spaces can be described by describing each axis: n positions (linear), n positions (360 degree symmetry), n positions (720 degree symmetry), half-infinite, infinite. < 1265927105 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"IP" sometimes stands for IntraProcedural register (i.e. a temp register) < 1265927204 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It starts to get really exotic when space can't be described as cartesian product of those axis types. < 1265927221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, examples? < 1265927252 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Spaces containing "wormhole"-type constructs. < 1265927274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, right now I'm imagining a trefunge with wormholes < 1265927278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible < 1265927295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I imagine it could be done with a fingerprint WORM < 1265927299 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, one only needs two dimensions to have wormholes. < 1265927302 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a trefunge with wormholes" sounds like an infested mushroom < 1265927304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, true < 1265927308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, :D < 1265927320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funge-98's ; command could be considered wormholey. < 1265927337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is more like "skip to matching" < 1265927362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather this would mean that touching a given space would dump you somewhere else, possibly going in a different direction < 1265927364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's traversed in no time, so it's not like other instructions. < 1265927379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so is space < 1265927385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: like one other instruction < 1265927400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space is not an instruction. < 1265927418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1265927442 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265927444 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wormhole would take time to transverse, the wormhole has interrior and it is part of space. < 1265927453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265927464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be one cool befunge fingerprint < 1265927476 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wormhole interrior space would be something like linear x 360 degree. < 1265927484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given how much ; and empty space are alike, it wouldn't feel too wrong to describe ; as just a notation about the 'shape' of the IP space. < 1265927487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meaning it might be implemented in efunge, but never cfunge) < 1265927495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, couldn't there be wormholes in the wormhole? < 1265927502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have a non-commutative geometry where going north then south is not guaranteed to put you back where you were. < 1265927512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265927514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that non-associative? < 1265927520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those! < 1265927534 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Could be possible. < 1265927545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265927551 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Jumps initiated by ; follow space geometry. < 1265927581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that bending of the funge-space-time slow down ips traveling near the wormhole? < 1265927583 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Or what would happen in current funges if one used ; to jump against space boundary? < 1265927594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as to disrupt the round-robin threading < 1265927607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning they run possibly at a fractional overlap < 1265927643 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They don't slow down. Wormhole space is discretized and IPs move following geometry when inside wormhole. < 1265927644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: But it's not "initiated" by ;, because you don't execute the ; -- instead the IP just moves somehow "past" the locations that contain other instructions, as if by taking some other route. < 1265927661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm. but would it be a sharp edge to the wormhole? < 1265927685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what? sounds like bullshit to me < 1265927707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, how did you implement it? ;P < 1265927712 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: To quote the spec: "; is truly ethereal; like space, it cannot ever be truly executed, in the sense of it taking up a tick and doing something." < 1265927718 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, it's not an instruction you can execute. < 1265927724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "in the sense that..." < 1265927734 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in the sense that means something. < 1265927741 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Really, what happens if IP hits ; and there isn't another before IP space "edges" are hit? < 1265927753 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: It wraps around to the nearest matching ; < 1265927753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, it wraps around < 1265927759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which could be itself < 1265927764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265927768 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Though so, which means it follows space geometry. < 1265927799 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265927831 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With wormholes, ; would go into wormhole (possibly finding pairing ; inside wormhole). < 1265927832 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you can make a scheme like language, just employ some interesting new concept < 1265927859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265927860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So (my Befunge is really rusty so bear with me): 11.;.@ would print two 1's, and stop. It should skip right around the ; as if it wasn't there, I think. < 1265927865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I think WORM would be cool < 1265927876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can only think of this with sharp edges < 1265927925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like the smooth bending in towards the hole like in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worm3.jpg < 1265927928 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably easiest way is to have wormhole edge boundaries be closed and of same length. Then the circumference of interrior matches circumference of edge. < 1265927951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a program contains only one ; (and never modifies space to place another one), it's equivalent to the same program with the ; replaced by a space < 1265927965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Unfortunately my new concept would only be "design a language which doesn't suck" :) < 1265927980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I really have to disagree about this; I personally think you can still describe ; as a notational device you use to describe the particular non-euclidian behaviour of the IP space, when you have to express it in a discrete 2D matrix. If you have a matching pair of ;s in the code, it means the shape of the space is such that when you move with the right direction, you move directly from one ; to the other. How's that sort of space "euclidean" to you? < 1265927984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, yes, as a cylindrical hole I guess < 1265927997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantised to whole cells < 1265928012 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265928017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would give a limited size cylindrical funge-space inside < 1265928071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Come to think of it, I don't suppose any discrete space is very euclidean.) < 1265928073 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are actually two types of holes, ones that have no internal crossing (IP reverses direction when transversing) and internally crossed holes (IP keeps direction). < 1265928123 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there is length of hole. Smallest possible length is 1, which has no interrior space at all (edges of wormhole are adjacent). < 1265928132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm, as in twisted half a turn? < 1265928156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, wouldn't that be 0? < 1265928177 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I still might do it. Even though it will almost certainly also suck. < 1265928180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 would have one cell worth of length < 1265928244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k bye < 1265928280 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, circumference of hole interrior would have to match number of configurations that hit hole edge (and not just circumference of edge). < 1265928298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265928310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to agree with fizzie's view -- ; are bit like wormholes. But they're not fixed wormholes. Where the IP ends up depends entirely on its delta. < 1265928312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to follow the quantized form I guess < 1265928337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, not sure how it would work for non-cardinal ips < 1265928352 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Befunge has those too? < 1265928361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1265928370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, befunge-98 does. You can have a delta of (34,2) or such if you want to < 1265928381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (23,-12) < 1265928389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-93 doesn't have ; so it's not that relevant here anyway < 1265928393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even (0,0) but that is fairly useless < 1265928429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Given that those guys view ; as just another instruction, I'd say ; is also not relevant; certainly you can imagine -93 with wormholes. < 1265928455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "those guys"? < 1265928459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You, Ilari. < 1265928464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265928466 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can imagine whatever you like, I'm just talking about what's already there. :-P < 1265928488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthogonal with wormholes for all I care < 1265928503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I can't figure out how a non-cardinal delta would move through a worm hole < 1265928511 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I'm saying is that ; would follow underlying geometry, whatever it is. < 1265928536 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's problem of determining if it even _hit_ a hole... < 1265928536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265928557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. if it is in it's path, then shouldn't it have done so? < 1265928558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265928561 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is where the whole idea of "any topology you want" breaks down < 1265928570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means figuring out if it passed it, it might have just touched the edge < 1265928575 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265928587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means floating point arithmetics or such < 1265928605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it might not even hit a whole number cell afterwards < 1265928655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even a hex-net Befunge would need a completely different set of semantics. < 1265928663 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one would take non-cardinal directions as quantized line that's traced, then that would enable computing where IP ends up in presence of wormholes. < 1265928670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not COMPLETELY. But pretty different. < 1265928688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess it would be triangle-net. But whatever. < 1265928739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, would it end up neatly in an integer cell? < 1265928743 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since that would mean that all deltas could be broken down to cardinal IP movements. < 1265928749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe it would < 1265928794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would it really need different rules apart from changing <>^v to something more relevant? < 1265928798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly x too < 1265928807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm, i and o pose a problem < 1265928810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does file format < 1265928817 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how do you do g and p? < 1265928836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You end up mapping Cartesian coordinates over the thing < 1265928842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, they need to be changed the same way as x < 1265928851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new coordinate system < 1265928881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could figure out "what delta would this cell have starting at the origin" < 1265928906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see what I mean? < 1265928931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: kinda, but I think it proves my point that it would be a significant change to the semantics < 1265928942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1265928960 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The smallest possible wormhole would have 1x1 ends. And would have interrior diameter of 4. < 1265928970 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/diameter/circumference/ < 1265928980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All my ideas for how Funge could be "improved" after 98 were too radical, anyway :) < 1265929088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: All I'm saying is that I like more the point of view where ; is not an instruction that can "follow underlying geometry", but instead a notation about the space the IP moves in. Of course you can get similar results by using a simpler "underlying geometry" -- a discrete 2-dimensional thing with funky wrapping -- and adding "jump" instructions, and I guess you could try some sort of "simplest geometry wins" rule for justifying that the Funge-98 space is n < 1265929089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ot "exotic" enough, but... well, meh. I doubt this is going anywhere. Must be away. < 1265929196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1265929266 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could the problems with non-cardial IPs solved by making corners correspond to line in interrior space? That would mean that 1x1 hole would have interror circuference of 8... < 1265929326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you map (integer) cartesian coordinates over a hex-grid or so and define x, g, p, and everything else that takes numeric coordinates, using those, I think what you're left with is just the usual sort of Funge-98 except with some special "movement modes" corresponding to the the diagonal-movement-to-neighbor-cells, which you can't even describe using a single (x, y) coordinate pair delta value. < 1265929381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I agree, and I agree that's a reason to avoid doing that mapping if at all possible. < 1265929414 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265929434 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-232-56.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265929466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(G'night.) < 1265929544 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember one proposal that works in any topology. Instead of a delta, you have a path, which is a list of directions. Similar to how arrows work in Hunt the Wumpus. < 1265929573 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265929603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead of (3,3), you have ">>>^^^" (or ">>^^>^" or ">>>>^^^^