< 1266451233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idempotency is a special case of absorption < 1266451254 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So this can be used to make algrebraic structures which include absorption like idempotent semirings (which are also called dioids), but rings are not one of those structures." <-- I only mean that rings do not include the axiom a + a = a that is found in idempotent semirings < 1266451262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo < 1266451263 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266451290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If R is a ring, it's not necessarily true that a + a = a for all a in R. < 1266451299 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it can't be true < 1266451310 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because + forms an abelian group < 1266451311 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what I thought that statement said. < 1266451325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rings are not one of those structures. That has a + a = a for all a. < 1266451327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you meant absorption in multiplication < 1266451349 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idempotent semirings don't have that. < 1266451367 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In algebraic terms, the first program absorbs the second during sequential composition." <<< sequential composition = multiplication < 1266451389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are saying rings can't have ab = a < 1266451401 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be misusing the term "absorb" there. < 1266451415 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you mean a + b = a? < 1266451430 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that makes no sense in the context, because sequential composition is not addition < 1266451434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in the case that the program b doesn't halt, a * b = b. Not in the general case. If both a and b halt, a * b = c. < 1266451454 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so you were talking about multiplication < 1266451466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can have ab = a in a ring. < 1266451480 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you're saying on the page does not make sense. < 1266451488 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so I'll probably reword it. < 1266451547 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you have ab = a in an infinite ring? < 1266451596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take an idempotent matrix < 1266451664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it should be simple to construct an example with a!=b, for instance with matrices < 1266451680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume you know matrices form a ring, if you don't, they do < 1266451765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo augur < 1266451767 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Well, that's actually very encouraging for the possibility that programs could form a ring with * being sequential composition. You'd just have to have a * b = b for all b that never halt :) < 1266451774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol hey < 1266451789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna hear something funky cool about english grammar that noone has a great explanation for? < 1266451820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: there's one slight problem tho, the addition must form an abelian group, how were you planning to invert parallelization ;) < 1266451832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parallel is rather naturally abelian, i guess < 1266451838 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes! < 1266451851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider these two sentences < 1266451853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try to explain it without a second of thought < 1266451855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not < 1266451876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which article did mary file ___?" < 1266451877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266451886 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which article did Mary read the book before filing ___?" < 1266451902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the ___ denotes a gap/missing word associated with "which article" < 1266451908 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first is good, the second is horrible < 1266451924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Can you give an example for ____ in the first case? < 1266451935 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what do you mean? < 1266451965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Can you provide a word associated with "which article" which you can include in your first sentence in place of the ____ ? < 1266451966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ___ just denotes the space that "article" would normally be found it were this NOT a question < 1266451967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1266451983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mary read the book before filing the article" < 1266452035 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the statement, you find "the article" after "filing", whereas in the sentence you dont. so i'm just putting a ___ to denote where the article phrase would be in a declarative sentence < 1266452072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or really, you can see it as (necessarily) empty position that you understand to be associated with "which article" < 1266452139 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in your first sentence you have the word "file" and in your second sentence you have the word "filing". If your first sentence was "Which article did Mary filing ___?" it would be equally horrible. Moreso, actually. So I'm not sure how it's even a fair comparison. < 1266452145 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second is "Before filing which article did Mary read the book" with which article in the beginning? < 1266452171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: thats irrelevant to the point < 1266452174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll read what's been said < 1266452184 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the non-question sentence "Mary read the book before filing the article" is fine < 1266452191 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely lost today, I guess I am :) < 1266452193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not about the verb, its about the gap < 1266452209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: See, I never bought that question-formation works like that. < 1266452219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you buy HOW it works is irrelevant < 1266452228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :characterize it in a dependency grammar sense for all i care < 1266452253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that theres this dependency between "which article" and "filing" in the second sentence which is BAD < 1266452263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but between "which article" and "file" in the first sentence which is FINE < 1266452266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the sentence looked horrible to me at first, but now i'm kinda getting used to it :P < 1266452278 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: thats ok, thats irrelevant to the point too ;) < 1266452280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! < 1266452283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving on to the interesting fact < 1266452291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets mash these two sentences together < 1266452299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which article did Mary file ___ before reading ___?" < 1266452302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely fine. < 1266452324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did mary file! < 1266452331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266452333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gap in the "before VERBing ___" clause is suddenly completely fine < 1266452340 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-234-41.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266452366 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266452373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1266452375 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe there was ever a gap there. But I'm sure you'll say that's irrelevant :) < 1266452376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow the adverbial clause gap becomes _acceptable_ when theres also a main clause gap < 1266452387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: are you fucking listening? < 1266452394 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266452396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the term gap is a purely descriptive tool < 1266452410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I say it wasn't? < 1266452412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether there was a gap there is irrelevant. describe it, theorize about it, HOWEVER you want < 1266452417 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you did understand the gaps aren't variables, they just describe where the article would be if it wasn't a question? < 1266452425 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can't actually put anything there < 1266452447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by the article i mean "the article" < 1266452448 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: in chomskyan linguistics, the gaps actually _are_ variables, sort of. ;) < 1266452470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you know what i meant :) < 1266452493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, if you did this with CCG there's no such thing as a gap; it all just builds up by function application < 1266452528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is not how you characterize it, the term gap is a purely descriptive phenomena. normally "file" and "read" have direct objects after them, but in questions they dont, so you can describe that as a "gap". < 1266452557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to take that idea seriously as a part of your theoretical apparatus, fine, if you don't, fine, but the descriptive term is just a descriptive term, used to name a phenomena < 1266452594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it "an atypical location of Direct Object" or a "question position of Direct Object" < 1266452595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care. < 1266452631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that i've given cpressey the smackdown he so rightly deserved < 1266452637 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just checking that he had an epiphany after asking "cpressey: augur: Can you provide a word associated ..." < 1266452644 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: noone reeeaaally knows how to characterize those sentences < 1266452689 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. < 1266452705 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266452708 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, i'd appreciate this more if i knew what things do have a good characterization :P < 1266452718 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266452745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i'd be more interested in this linguistics stuff if i knew anything about linguistics" < 1266452757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1266452784 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd be interested in this interesting stuff if i knew anything about interest < 1266452819 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we have lots of great ways of describing all sorts of good sentences and bad sentences and why they're good vs. bad < 1266452820 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266452821 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I try to explain that I don't think the concept "where the article would be if it wasn't a question" doesn't really make sense when you < 1266452827 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'re analyzing questions? < 1266452830 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1266452838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, because it doesnt matter < 1266452841 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you might want to /ignore augur < 1266452842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266452859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my use of that description was purely to make it easier to understand the issue at hand < 1266452898 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266452912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, and no alternative explanation would help shed any light on it. < 1266452929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the first thing i tried. < 1266452953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether or not an alternative explanation would help is also irrelevant, because you're bitching about the first thing i tried < 1266452969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which obviously WORKED because you know what the point of it was < 1266452983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You tried to analyze "file before reading" as an atomic verb? < 1266452988 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you dont like describe it in that fashion is IRRELEVANT to the communicative intent of that phrasing. < 1266452993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266453023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that wasn't the first thing you tried? < 1266453036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain what you're saying because now _you've_ lost _me_ < 1266453053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shame, I gotta go home. < 1266453058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See y'all later. < 1266453060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266453071 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think of it as an atomic verb, then it seemingly makes sense, say you can't have anything but "which article did mary kill" is ok, "which article did mary file before reading" is ok, the example with the book has "two verbs" < 1266453078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*say you can't have anything but one verb < 1266453098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its obviously not a single whole unanalyzed verb < 1266453098 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1266453130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which article did Mary file before throwing into the garbage out back?" < 1266453146 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266453158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"file-before-throwing-into-the-garbage-out-back" is now one giant verb! < 1266453278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well i was thinking file needs an object, and because it doesn't get one, you treat it as a lambda which you'll apply "article later", and the same happens with read, and "file before reading" has two lambdas around before, so you make a new verb that forks its argument to both file and read < 1266453289 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure that makes much sense, that's how i just feel like i'm reading it < 1266453302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just how it < 1266453303 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1266453305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aiuoerh < 1266453307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i < 1266453332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it does need a object < 1266453353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you dont need a gap in the second part, right < 1266453376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which article did mary file after reading this book?" < 1266453386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it cant simply be a fork to both lambdas < 1266453436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if that WERE your explanation for the goodness of the two-gap sentence, then you have to explain why there are two classes of one-gap sentences < 1266453441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO-of-main-verb gaps < 1266453442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are fine < 1266453453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and DO-of-adjunct-clause-verb gaps which are bad < 1266453469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg, ill be back in a bit < 1266453495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the rule could be that the first verb needs to be the only one that needs the article; makes sense because you only need to remember what's being "whiched" until some other ...subject appears < 1266453552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so file before reading is okay because you'll make those into one verb, file before reading the book is okay, because when you reach the book, you'll "forget about the article", but your original example has the book, but you still need to remember the article < 1266453588 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's just what i'd guess, you can probably easily find a counterexample, and i'm not even sure what it is i'm saying, i don't really have a good model of language in my head. < 1266453771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266454680 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266455147 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266455158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok hello < 1266455164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry what was your rule, oklopol? < 1266455294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, < 1266455294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:42 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] < 1266455396 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: that you only remember what you're "whiching" until there's a first subject, so you just build up a verb that will be applied to "the article" later, until some other subject appears, then you just forget about the article. < 1266455458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you just have "which X does Mary V ..." where V is some verb applied to X, and ... can be any additional info < 1266455465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like before reading the book) < 1266455670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but V can also be a fork. i have no idea what it would be in general. < 1266455681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some sorta lambda < 1266457697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what do you mean a first subject?? < 1266457712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word being gapped here, which is linked to the WH phrase, isnt a subject, its an object < 1266457721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so please explain in more detail < 1266458456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, i mean "object other than the one being whiched", not "subject" < 1266458457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266458538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really what i mean is you can just have one verb after the which, without an object. "which X does Mary V ..." is the only possible structure. < 1266458589 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so always "which object does subject verb", but you can then continue the sentence anyway you like, you just can't add stuff in between < 1266458611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you consider "the article mary read the book before filing" okay? < 1266458626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering if the "which" is necessary < 1266458667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no thats horrible too. < 1266458675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its pretty much ANY gapping of that sort < 1266458692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266458696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a WH phrase was just a convenient way to demonstrate it. < 1266458753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the problem is that the GOOD version has TWO gaps < 1266458775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the article mary has always wanted to read" and stuff work, but "the article mary has a cousin who read" and friends don't work, i think it's the object that does it < 1266458786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yeah and i explained it with a fork < 1266458790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems like a strange thing to say that the rule is that once you see a direct object you discard the stored phrase < 1266458814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly, that depends on a specifically linear model, but your fork doesnt, so you have to make them work together < 1266458819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's strange. the verb can just consist of multiple verbs < 1266458826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thirdly, its not just english that allows it, right < 1266458837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other languages have parasitic gaps too, but in the OPPOSITE ORDER < 1266458845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in japanese, for instance, i believe the gap structure is like this: < 1266458872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[___ V before] S ___ V < 1266458882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: secondly, that depends on a specifically linear model, but your fork doesnt, so you have to make them work together" <<< i don't understand this < 1266458904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way you explained why the bad version is bad depends on the linear order of the words < 1266458916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt have anything to do with the structure of the sentence < 1266458932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and crucially, gapping seems to be structurally, not linearly, defined < 1266458953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see. can you give me an example where my idea doesn't work though? < 1266458967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that would be much more enlightening < 1266459075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for english, no, sorry. but im not ENTIRELY clear on your description of the rule, to begin with < 1266459087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, ok, i can probably give you an example without a parasitic gap < 1266459097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a sentence with a gap that linearly crosses another direct object < 1266459104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are trivially constructable < 1266459231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that help you understand what i mean? < 1266459240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1266459252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be a counterexample to my rule < 1266459294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could always say that your rule only applies to PGs ;P < 1266459304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for example < 1266459307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in my rule, which i do not claim i understand that clearly myself, you can't have a gap crossing any other object, the gap always comes right away. < 1266459336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did [the man that john saw] speak to ___? < 1266459344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266459353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well < 1266459361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt cross an in-place object < 1266459361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266459369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did [the man that saw john] speak to ___? < 1266459376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "john" in this one is the object < 1266459387 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about language? < 1266459388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as anyone can tell, these constructions have nothing to do with linear order < 1266459400 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, no language seems to care about linear order, as far as anyone knows < 1266459402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes < 1266459550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh but i'd just apply my rule recursively, "the man that john saw" is okay, gap before direct object, then "who did X speak to" is okay, gap before direct object. < 1266459605 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but how do you characterize the domain of applicability then < 1266459626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then how do you get the fact that in other languages the order doesnt matter to PGs < 1266459698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you define PG = parasitic gap, is it just this general concept of gap? < 1266459719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a parasitic gap is the second gap in "which article did mary file ___ before reading ___" < 1266459731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where if it were the only gap, it would be bad, but because of the presence of the first gap, it becomes good < 1266459766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't explain other languages, because i don't know them < 1266459771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i know finnish < 1266459773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see < 1266459781 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont need to know another language that does this :P < 1266459787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to realize that its not linear order < 1266459844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its not about objects, either, you can cross subjects too < 1266459869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: ok but how do you characterize the domain of applicability then" <<< always applies < 1266459888 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no i mean what is the domain that you recursively apply this to < 1266459905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the object that is recursively analyzed < 1266459916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i dunno... i just think "the man that saw john" is a normal subject < 1266459916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not simply all substrings of the sentence, obviously < 1266459924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse its a normal subject < 1266459999 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what we have is an instance of the pattern "who did X speak to", which is okay, and X is okay as well; i guess i'd say if there's any parsing that makes it work, it works. < 1266460060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but what im asking is how do you know what to look at when you're asking what is ok < 1266460073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're segmenting the sentence into two domains to investigate < 1266460078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did X speak to < 1266460079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266460082 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the man that saw john < 1266460084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not, say < 1266460087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did the man that < 1266460087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266460091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saw john speak to < 1266460113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if there's any parsing that makes it work, it works.", segment it into any amount of domains, if it works with some segmentation, it works. < 1266460157 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant just say if theres ANY segmentation that makes it work < 1266460176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not, is it obviously false? < 1266460200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which file did mary read the book before filing ___" < 1266460204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segment this into two parts < 1266460218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which file did Mary VP before filing ___ < 1266460226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and VP = read the book < 1266460232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus in VP theres no violation < 1266460237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i don't think this phenomenon happens on the same level as parsing, i think i already know it's "who did [the man that saw john] speak to ___?" when i start thinking about gaps, so the recursion works < 1266460239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266460240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the other one theres no violation < 1266460283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no violation in VP, but there is in "which file did Mary VP before filing ___", therefore it doesn't work. < 1266460289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no there isnt < 1266460296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure there is, VP has an object < 1266460303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but so does X in yours! < 1266460316 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1266460322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me think, maybe you're right < 1266460435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh but umm, even though X does have an object, the "type of X" is clearly just a subject. the type of "Mary VP before filing" is not a verb, and does not fit the pattern "which file did mary verb before filing" < 1266460447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what does that have to do with it < 1266460457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why i said whats the domain of these analyses < 1266460481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if i can just choose any object in the syntax to separate along, e.g. the VP, then theres no problem < 1266460495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying there is a violation in "which file did Mary VP before filing ___", because it's not of the form "which file did mary V ...", which is the only allowed pattern. < 1266460513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean the only allowed pattern < 1266460553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that all sentences that start with "which file did mary " must be followed by a verb without an object, forming a lambda that's then applied to "file". < 1266460611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "Mary VP before filing" isn't a lambda in this case, i don't know why it isn't, my guess was that VP contains an object, i just know verbs are, and certain forks are. < 1266460638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not true tho < 1266460642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which file did mary ask john about < 1266460666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which person did mary talk to john about < 1266460683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did mary give the pot to < 1266460686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1266460708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not questioning the subject does not mean questioning the object < 1266460723 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what building did mary read the book in < 1266460800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first ones i think roughly follow my idea, the last one doesn't < 1266460849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's okay to have another object before the gap because it isn't a verb that's applied to building, there's a preposition < 1266460920 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you feel like i'm on the wrong track, i'll just trust on your intuition even if i don't trust in your counterexamples. < 1266460937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably i haven't solved the problem if linguists haven't. < 1266460938 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did mary tell john about < 1266460949 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell obviously can take a person as a direct object < 1266460951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well again < 1266460952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who can be that object < 1266460953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell takes two args < 1266460964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so tell john about" is just a one-arg verb < 1266460975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266460975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i still don't think that's a counterexample < 1266460979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its not < 1266460985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it IS a counter example < 1266460992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your rule does not rule it out < 1266460995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"to tell john about X" is a verb with one argument < 1266461005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"to tell john about X" is not a verb < 1266461010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1266461018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a whole fucking phrase :P < 1266461028 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its also an infinitival subjectless sentence < 1266461042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and again, Japanese. < 1266461055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Irish. < 1266461095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd just say tell is a verb that takes two right arguments, in "to tell john about" you've just curried the first one < 1266461149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about Japanese? < 1266461155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what the fuck does it even matter if that's not something that usually makes sense, if it makes sense in this case, i have fitted your counterexample in my model. < 1266461181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more like it already fit in it, i just probably have a weird model of language in my head because i don't know any of your fancy linguistics stuff. < 1266461182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION logreads
< 1266461230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yeah, that is the gap structure of Japanese. < 1266461276 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ok, let me put it to you this way < 1266461298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"who did mary give the pot to" how is this not a direct application of my idea? "give the pot to" is a verb with one argument < 1266461302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me a full _algorithm_ that is not ambiguous or vague. < 1266461336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: fine, but then the VP in the bad sentence is ALSO a verb with one argument < 1266461355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "give the pot to" is a two argument verb < 1266461360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the object of giveing-pot-to < 1266461362 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the subject < 1266461364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait right < 1266461373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't notice, because it doesn't matter < 1266461378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266461384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just shift the argument number up one < 1266461389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm < 1266461414 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are right about the VP thing, my rule is pretty vague < 1266461419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is, the linear ordering doesnt matter < 1266461429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because other languages with different linear ordering have the SAME constraint < 1266461496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont try to solve it oklopol, its not an easy problem to solve :p < 1266461517 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i can't really explain why "Mary does something before filing ___" is not okay while "mary tells john about ___" is, i can just explain why the latter one clearly is (currying). < 1266461531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah true < 1266461545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its not just "does something" right < 1266461586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its "does something" where that phrase, whatever it is, doesnt have a gapped item < 1266461592 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not even direct object, right < 1266461601 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary tell john about ___ before reading ___" < 1266461622 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary see ___ burn to pieces after reading ___" < 1266461625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266461635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho interestingly, not the other way around < 1266461662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary read ___ before ___ burnt/burning" < 1266461685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that's not okay? < 1266461753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on the reading where the book just spontaneously burnt to pieces < 1266461754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: its "does something" where that phrase, whatever it is, doesnt have a gapped item" yeah as i said, it's okay if it results in a one-arg verb, otherwise not. gap = one-arg verb < 1266461761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was mary doing the burning then sure its fine < 1266461775 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary read ___ before ___ fell/falling shut" < 1266461788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266461823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not saying it doesnt have to do with the VP being a one-arg/two-arg thing right < 1266461830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im saying it doesnt have to do with the LINEAR ORDER < 1266461904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe i'm not understanding correctly what you mean by linear order, you mean it can't be the case that it actually wants the gap to be just to the right of the "which article" thingie, but that the reason must have to do with something else? < 1266461963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it has nothing to do with the dependency crossing an object < 1266461986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try to construct a different example < 1266462035 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mary read the book before filing yesterday the article" is bad where yesterday modifies "read" < 1266462050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mary read before filing yesterday the article" is fine where yesterday modifies "read" < 1266462052 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266462070 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in this case "the article" is to the right of its gap < 1266462088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the dependency doesnt cross another direct object < 1266462094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet its still unacceptable < 1266462143 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sentence is not of the form "the X that ...", i don't directly see what these have to do with each other < 1266462164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither is the original! < 1266462181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah it was "which" < 1266462182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which article did mary read the book before filing" is not of the form "the X that ..." either < 1266462182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1266462194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the article mary read the book before filing" < 1266462194 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we already established that it has nothing to do with the "which" < 1266462210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1266462222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just showed you that the CONSTRAINT STILL APPLIES < 1266462228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet your description of the required sentence DOESNT < 1266462255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have failed to explain the phenomena because you have no explanation for the RIGHTWARD filler-gap badness < 1266462267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my description was only about cases where you have some sort of "the X that ..." or "which X ..." < 1266462274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and thats the problem < 1266462278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1266462285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your description ONLY explains the leftward filler-gap case < 1266462289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the rightward one < 1266462314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more generally, its OBVIOUSLY got nothing to do with the direction --- the violations are EXACTLY the same regardless of direction < 1266462324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even think "mary read before filing yesterday the article" is a good sentence. < 1266462334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you might need a heavier NP < 1266462350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mary read before filing yesterday every TPS report that had been left on her desk in the last week" < 1266462371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, i see < 1266462375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly me < 1266462378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that parses just fine. < 1266462405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems very unusual with that syntax structure and having only a single noun as the object of "read". < 1266462415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5yeah < 1266462434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it longer, and it's magically idiomatic. < 1266462443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Not the correct word in this context. < 1266462443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266462451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rightward extraposition is almost always done for weightedness of the phrase being moved < 1266462455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magically normal-seeming. < 1266462457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go. < 1266462572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also need the right intonation < 1266462575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats another thing, right < 1266462586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes without the correct intonation a sentence will sound horrible < 1266462591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to go do some homework, i admit i have no idea how to solve the problem in that sort of sentence, cya. < 1266462601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, certainly. < 1266462608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, dont worry, noone else does either :) < 1266462616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: presumably its because intonation indicates structure < 1266462633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so without the right intonation, you're just not conveying the right structure, so it IS bad < 1266462643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yeah. < 1266462657 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1266462664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually draw parentheses in the air with my hands with complicated sentences < 1266462665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the problem with language, we cant enforce a structure, we have to use this linear mechanism < 1266462670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the question is ALL about structure < 1266462685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sure, but that also sort of doesnt work with the average person < 1266462701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, it's kinda funny... It seems to me many people have this odd idea that intonation is limited to various Asian languages... (Y'know, since Chinese is tonal and all) < 1266462718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though there's probably not a language *without* intonation being significant in some way. < 1266462738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if there is a language without significant intonation, its name is Lojban.) < 1266462740 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no no intonation isnt what people think is limited to many asian languages < 1266462746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather, TONE is < 1266462749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not just but < 1266462752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Right. < 1266462753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english doesnt have TONE < 1266462757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has intonation < 1266462761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two are not the same < 1266462763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Intonation is merely ignored. < 1266462771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266462796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Sorry. Minor bit of confusion there. < 1266462800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really should know better. < 1266462810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't tone that questions have in the end? < 1266462828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well, intonation and tone are closely related < 1266462846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that both are primary tone, right < 1266462855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so questions have high intonation at the end of them, usually < 1266462873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tone is a property of words or syllables < 1266462884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266462908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i don't know what primary tone is, but otherwise < 1266462915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1266462935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the tone at the end of questions is mostly ignored as well < 1266462936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tone underlying the harmonics < 1266463040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay sleep and/or homework < 1266463041 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266463058 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1266463270 0 :SimonRC_!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266463640 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266463674 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@174-29-91-32.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266463799 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266464304 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266464394 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266465281 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266465716 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1266465725 0 :pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Pthing < 1266465780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266465812 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266466030 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1266466140 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266466313 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1266466336 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266467249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266467492 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266467540 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266467953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266469693 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266470211 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266470709 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@174-29-91-32.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266470846 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266471609 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1266471861 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266471905 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266472480 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266472552 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266473329 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266475388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Verily So < 1266476203 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266476768 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266479895 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266479942 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266479999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266480000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266480825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish This is an example sentence right here. < 1266480830 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thees is un ixemple-a suntunce-a reeght here-a. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1266481593 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266481650 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-27.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266481820 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-27.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266482001 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266483810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266483834 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266484058 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266484230 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266484278 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266486281 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266488364 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266488504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266488546 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266488547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a piet/bf polygot? I do think it would actually be possible, since bf ignores anything but +-<>[],. < 1266488577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as long as the image header or such requires that there is unbalanced [] in it or similar it should be possible < 1266488601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/such requires/such doesn't require/ < 1266488651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a piet quine also sounds quite interesting < 1266488807 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266489854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266489885 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266490454 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266490701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you use the PPM image format, a piet/bf polyglot is boringly trivial: the PPM format is ascii-based, the "header" is just the string "P3", all the data is just decimal digits and newlines ignored by bf, and lines starting with # are PPM comments, so you can stick any brainfuck program there. < 1266490766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, what format is usually used for piet? < 1266490771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :png? bmp? ppm? < 1266490778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know, png would be my guess. < 1266490782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266490793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a piet quine sounds more interesting < 1266490892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Or maybe even a multistage quine, where you have a .png file that's a Piet program that outputs a .bmp, which is a Piet program that outputs a .tiff, which is a Piet program that outputs the original .png. < 1266490901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266490923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds nontrivial to write, though. < 1266491100 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266495552 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266498236 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266499609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nono you should make a chain of piet programs p1 ... pn s.t. pi outputs p(i+1), pn outputs p1, and they form an animation of some sort < 1266499620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a dancing dude < 1266499656 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266499931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I am sure that sooner or later that sort of thing (incl. a Piet browser plugin to run them) will deprecate Flash for doing animated web ads. < 1266500048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably also interactive stuff < 1266501048 0 :paramananda!~Peyu@cable-115-247.multi-speed.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266501609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely suspects paramananda is in the wrong channel
< 1266501632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for esoteric programming languages, nothing to do with swamis of any kind :D < 1266501768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think we have yet found a good esotericism channel to point people to < 1266501866 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266501868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually according to http://irc.netsplit.de/chat/esoteric.php, the #esoteric at DalNet looks promising < 1266501882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*DALnet < 1266501937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, apart from having just 1 user, that is < 1266501953 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266501999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23esoteric&net=DALnet shows that being the mac < 1266502002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :max < 1266502105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rusnet one looks more promising actually (8 users), but you'd have to know russian < 1266502238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(topic transliterates as "ezoterika, mistika, magiya") < 1266503447 0 :paramananda!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266504046 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266505014 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said anything about swamis? < 1266505057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google paramananda < 1266505063 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swami Paramananda (1884-1940) was one of the early Indian teachers who came to the United States to spread the Vedanta philosophy and religion in America. ... \ [13]Biography - [14]Works - [15]Books on and by Swami Paramananda < 1266505091 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1266505116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -ananda is usually a dead giveaway :D < 1266505131 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have to get ready to go to school < 1266505730 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266506023 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266506973 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266507213 0 :Suprano!~marenz@p5B0849DD.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266507237 0 :Suprano!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266507470 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fungot < 1266507471 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: i don't know anyone who speaks latin would like to join in r.a.w...? < 1266507490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reductio ad whateverum < 1266507558 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266507576 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, fungot, count me in < 1266507576 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: deleted by fnord white user fnord 19:56, 20 october 2006 ( utc < 1266507602 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: i was deleted?! < 1266507603 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: ' ' ' < 1266507621 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: fungot < 1266507622 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: operation blue star: this was the first black man to receive a kbe. but, unfortunately the error function. but is the constitution the enabling act, or < 1266507657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1266507658 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube < 1266507712 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fungot can be set to a style, can it? < 1266507737 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style lovecraft < 1266507738 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) < 1266507756 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hey there, how's it hangin'? < 1266507778 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: fungot < 1266507790 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches < 1266507791 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) < 1266507819 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what is the only thing to fear? < 1266508394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: stop ignoring deschutron please < 1266508396 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: gentlemen, flushed with hope, burning with animosity, they agree in their votes, so to speak, or for iphicrates in the field, and in the course of athenian education, the administration of justice. < 1266508432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it has a five response consecutive limit per person) < 1266508442 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1266508478 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what is the only thing to fear? < 1266508480 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: the great french soldier, de fnord fnord fnord atque fnord fnord, saw the royal family: so as on one hand, and caused the seal of that great people were peculiar to themselves, the interest became still more absorbing. the fnord understanding, the rudest hand, is not a good hat, and asked me who had been talking prose all their lives without knowing anything of the sort since he built the tower of babel. the foreign < 1266508531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnords to live by < 1266508534 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Àêt¬r~lx@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au: what an ignorance of human nature, that whoever takes a view of the court of louis. he was in truth a monster in jurisprudence. it signifies nothing whether a court for this purpose too the druids performed all their ceremonies in the bosom of france itself; we have been speaking had been members of large communities, and of which he had knocked down osborne and bidden defiance to < 1266508534 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol "the great french soldier, de fnord fnord fnord atque fnord fnord" < 1266508554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1266508611 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he must have noticed me quoting him < 1266508626 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adam.com.au is my isp < 1266508672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's a bug in that... < 1266508682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i thought this channel censored colors < 1266508711 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266508771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[.+] < 1266508772 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€�‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹Œ�Ž��‘’“”•–—˜™š›œ�žŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ ... < 1266508811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, my client interpreted that as a CTCP < 1266508816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine too < 1266508816 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with colour codes in! < 1266508840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i got no color (other than inverse video). hm... < 1266508843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++[.+] < 1266508844 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€�‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹Œ�Ž��‘’“”•–—˜™š›œ�žŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐ ... < 1266508851 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1266508892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact that was what i wanted to test. why did the one above (just befor scarf joined) have colors? < 1266508900 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got no colour on that < 1266508926 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got no colour on the one before scarf joined < 1266508926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, i did. blue on black. < 1266508955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's just bold + inverted in my terminal < 1266508957 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using pidgin < 1266508958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1266508960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi < 1266509050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, it was a strange bug - fungot giving a malformed response to deschutron without deschutron saying anything (afaict) < 1266509052 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: speusippus. to sup with fnord. i have that inward and dignified consciousness of my own meditation. with eyes dimmed with fond and melancholy tears, she leaned over the fnord, if more and better food is any standard of melioration. they work more, it was the duty of such a compliment; and therefore, in a general way to know why he was in power, and that < 1266509068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnords to live by < 1266509087 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266509119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it was that the long response it was already giving got broken up into two lines somehow... < 1266509127 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the great french soldier, de fnord fnord fnord atque fnord fnord" < 1266509155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: i saw that after fungot's weird response, last time < 1266509156 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the objectors, education among the people for that object. they wish us to do is a mysterious and searching question which those may answer who know what it is. < 1266509194 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266509210 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sent it before i received his weird response < 1266509344 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266509404 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way oerjan, i like your language CHIQRSX9+ < 1266509411 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that last fungot quote, btw < 1266509412 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: nothing is more natural than that the parliament has possessed great power in the democracy under napoleon. napoleon might probably have lacked the information that certain monsters of virtue ever had existence. but it is not in the power of the keys of the fortress on his knees is daily studied, no sectarian ill-will nor narrow human dogma is permitted to do it. < 1266509440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266509501 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i came across it recently. < 1266509531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, food -> < 1266509584 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food? < 1266509661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, there's a sort of a "known bug" in that sometimes fungot gives partially corrupted spurious replies. It's proven to be a bit of a heisenbug. < 1266509663 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: revolution, the french monarchy so low in the scale upon which they will intrigue to obtain, or of negligence scarcely less culpable. mr mitford has nevertheless told without any qualification, and at once the grand distinction to be asked to come amongst you. this is the subject of representation; much on the art of cementing the ties of party had superseded those of country, have been more pleasing. i shall introduce < 1266509828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: i'd been forgetting to eat < 1266509862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i was wondering if it was related to having very long replies that get split somehow? < 1266509882 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1266509901 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the feeling < 1266509924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It is possible that the reply-generation overflows something, yes. I don't remember if I have a hard limit for the number of tokens there, it has a stopping probability that grows as the number of already generated tokens increases though. < 1266509977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well does the formula for the stopping probability ever reach 1? < 1266510001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's at least possible to grow without limit < 1266510060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, it's not completely trivial to read from the code. And I think it still will only stop if the model permits that, so if there's a nonzero-probability "loop" (context-wise, I mean) of nodes in the n-gram graph that do not have the "can stop" flag, it's possible to get stuck. < 1266510083 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might also be that there's a sensible limit of tokens, but the token → text conversion overwrites something. < 1266510084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1266510085 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube < 1266510139 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling the speechification might have a larger average token length that something like IRC. But that's just a guess. < 1266510186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sesquipedalian loquaciousness, you mean < 1266510194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that. < 1266510661 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266511368 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I reworded http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Potro -- hopefully it's clearer now. < 1266511695 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132F5B.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266511742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh i'm still not completely happy with it :P < 1266511761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just thinking about "Unfortunately, we would need ..." < 1266511763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1266511770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just append them, and it halts it if halts < 1266511796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't actually have to know, because you can't invert programs anyway < 1266511799 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1266511818 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, I think I am still thinking along those lines. < 1266511864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, I suspect it's something to do with distributivity. I'll try to work it out. < 1266512487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try using it in a sentence < 1266512660 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm kind of working from an insight I had while working out Cabra. But I'm starting to think whatever that insight was, it was depending on + meaning parallel execution. < 1266512815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say program a always halts but program b never halts. < 1266512844 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a ring, (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c) < 1266512857 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But b never halts, so b * c = b < 1266512865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that still seems fine. < 1266512879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a little weird I guess. (a + b) * c = (a * c) + b < 1266512944 0 :oklogon!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266513060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266513139 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Damn, this might actually work! < 1266513278 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not sure about that now. Say a never halts, b never halts, c always halts. Then: a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c) = a + a. But: (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c) = a + b. < 1266513304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait. Maybe that's OK. < 1266513324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing says a * (b + c) = (a + b) * c :) < 1266513427 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so. I admit, it looks like * in a ring could be pretty well suited to being sequential execution. < 1266513543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess the bigger problems, now, are with making + commutative and invertible and non-absorptive. < 1266513668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having a + b = b + a where a always halts and b never halts pretty much drives the semantics of + towards something parallel. < 1266513813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait again. < 1266513817 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, need more coffee. < 1266513980 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266514137 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266514173 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266514422 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it OK for every element of a ring to be its own additive inverse? a + a = e for all a? < 1266514433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266514466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, those are rings of characteristic 2 iirc < 1266514480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. Then I might have an idea. < 1266514564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you have a 1, and 1+1 = 0, then it follows automatically for everything else) < 1266514652 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and your "iirc" :P < 1266514723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_(algebra) < 1266514790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: well i did bump into it the other day during one of our discussions < 1266514818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if i knew the term applied to non-fields before < 1266514891 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well true i've never heard it with anything but fields < 1266514977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would seem to include at least boolean rings among other things i already knew about < 1266515541 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266515724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, problem: additive inverses don't seem to play well with absorption. Say a never halts. Then a * (b + c) = a. Then a = (a * b) + (a * c) = a + a. So a = e. < 1266515752 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, that does suggest the possibility of just making e = bottom :) < 1266515838 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266515967 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* derivation is why it's so nice to have an algebra that gives you a + a = a. < 1266516198 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266516303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose doing something in parallel with something that never halts is pretty equivalent to doing it alone, intuitively, if you go by something like what results you eventually get... < 1266516501 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multithread with one process checking the other to see if it ever loops < 1266516568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: also, e is intuitively additive 0, while bottom is intuitively multiplicative 0 < 1266516608 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah. I banged my head repeatedly against this particular wall while designing Cabra. < 1266516980 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266517265 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zoo time < 1266518056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hate to keep asking these things, but is it OK for every element of a ring to be idempotent wrt addition? a + a = a for all a? < 1266518083 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1266518100 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + a = a <==> a = 0 < 1266518108 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, because then what is a' in a + a' = 0. Right. < 1266518110 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding the additive inverse < 1266518125 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to get from left to right) < 1266518143 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266518149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that < 1266518156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it's hard to get a ring. < 1266518218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually - forget "all a". Say there exist idempotent b and c, where b + b = b and c + c = c. Can b =/= c? < 1266518232 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1266518275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + a = a <==> a = 0, so b = c. < 1266518293 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, b = c = 0 < 1266518336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there can only ever be one element where a + a = a. But if there is any "absorbative" element x where forall y, xy = x, then x + x = x. < 1266518355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there can only be one "absorbative" element. < 1266518373 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There is probably a better word for "absorbative") < 1266518398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :projections ? < 1266518484 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe projection... not sure. < 1266518511 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-27.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266518536 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that means there can only be one program that never halts. Or, all programs that never halt are considered equivalent. < 1266518537 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see why "x where forall y, xy = x" wouldn't be possible, < 1266518568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "zero" < 1266518588 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i completely ignored the x + x = x < 1266518722 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. < 1266518725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: also, if two programs x and y never halt, then x = xy = y < 1266518761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1266518767 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a name for an algebraic system with an infinity? < 1266518806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for all programs x, there needs to exist a unique x' such that x + x' = 0. If bottom is zero, then x' is not unique. < 1266518812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: i've got this on my watchlist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory < 1266518818 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-halting could be infinity < 1266518882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: If addition is commutative, you'd need negative infinity too. < 1266518936 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the part where i ask for the name of such a structure was my main point < 1266518982 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: Sorry, thinking of it in the context of my current train of thought. I don't know if such things have a specific name. < 1266519033 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kleene star is a kind of infinity, maybe. < 1266519249 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i'll have to check that out in-depth, would the extension of reals be the extended reals? < 1266519273 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, kleene star is a value? < 1266519298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I should say, it's a kind of infinity-generating-operator-thing. < 1266519310 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266519374 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266519415 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say 0 is bottom. Then a + 0 = a (where a =/= 0) means something like "run a in parallel with loops-forever, take a's result when done." a * 0 = 0 means something like "run loops-forever after a". Both are good. < 1266519420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, for a there is some a' where a + a' = 0. But what could you run in parallel with a that would equate to loops-forever? Maybe something that interferes with a (and only a) in such a way that causes a to loop forever. < 1266519420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: i'm not quite sure what it is, although there is at least both distinct 1/0 and 0/0 iirc < 1266519479 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a watchlist < 1266519507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon, on irc? < 1266519515 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on wp < 1266519518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has not read context
< 1266519534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you could think of 0 more as "never gives a result", in which case looping forever may not be mandatory < 1266519538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon, oh that, a way to "subscribe" to edits to certain pages < 1266519539 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe it makes Wikipedia message you somehow whenever the page changes. < 1266519561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that description is basically a simplification, but you get the idea) < 1266519576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that may be an option, although i just visit my watchlist page... < 1266519578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, then a' is the "result killer" of a (and only a) < 1266519587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes it will also email you (there is a setting iirc for that) < 1266519599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(grammar fail) < 1266519626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon, hm have you used your current nick before? < 1266519630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember seeing it < 1266519664 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's new < 1266519666 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1266519669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what you might want then, is for results to form a group < 1266519670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it sounds like the name of a noble gas < 1266519681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a' gives the inverse result of a < 1266519685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm thinking of argon and such < 1266519740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that sounds like a good way to proceed. < 1266519789 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Maybe food will help me think. bbl. < 1266519800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly an oklogon is a polygon with strange non-euclidean angles < 1266519804 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. < 1266519812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gaah, oerjan strikes faster again. < 1266519854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that was supposed to be irresponsible, not some strange "irresponsive". A compound fracture, I mean, failure. < 1266519971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fractal compound < 1266519992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :farctal < 1266520288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Problem: We say b + 0 = b means "when b finishes, take its result". What if we have b + x, and b finishes before x. Do we take b's result or do we wait for x? If x is 0, we can't wait for it. But x might not be 0, so we have to wait for it. < 1266520303 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just reliving Cabra :) < 1266520310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Away for lunch for real this time. < 1266520341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result only becomes known asymptotically < 1266520398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose this could be a problem if it never stabilizes < 1266521326 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266522057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or another way to put it would be, you need an oracle. if you have that, or you restrict the set to programs that always halt, I don't think there's a huge problem. < 1266522084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266522142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say 0 maps all tapes to blank tapes, and programs refuse to run when the tape is blank. Obviously the initial tape can't always be blank, but whatever. 1 is the identity function on tapes. < 1266522179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, a + b -> run both and add their tapes. a * b -> run a then b. < 1266522193 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes, obviously the -gon is from polygon < 1266522199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were both slow < 1266522215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was also oktagon at some point < 1266522220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION quickly swats oklopol -----###
< 1266522222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly not here tho < 1266522296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that won't distribute (a + b) * c properly unless c is linear < 1266522304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Re wheels: it reminded me of an algebra I considered once, over the reals - {0}. Division, multiplication, addition are defined everywhere, but subtraction is not. < 1266522330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hm, I think you're right. < 1266522377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition? how does that work? < 1266522397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean positive reals < 1266522443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, yeah. Addition of numbers with the same sign. (If subtraction is not defined, then neither is addition of different-parity numbers.) < 1266522464 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition of the numbers with the same sign? so it's a partial algebra < 1266522503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually in an algebraic structure every function should be defined for all inputs < 1266522507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/parity/sign/. don't know what i'm saying :) < 1266522518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was clear < 1266522527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was inspired by division by zero being undefined in the reals. < 1266522534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(parity and sign are the same group) < 1266522595 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a| + |b| and -|a| + -|b| are defined, and you could consider them two new operations. < 1266522596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Q\0 and R\0 are both abelian groups w.r.t. multiplication, it's just adding the addition doesn't make, afaict, make it any known structure < 1266522626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you already have subtraction because -|a| + -|b| can be negative < 1266522629 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's partial < 1266522638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some functions defined only for some inputs) < 1266522674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway i need to go to sleep < 1266522758 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, |a| + |b| and -|a| + -|b| are defined everywhere, but |a| + -|b| and -|a| + |b| are not defined everywhere. Maybe the terms "addition" and "subtraction" are misleading in this context. < 1266522786 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Night oklopol. < 1266522894 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: From the Cabra doc: "I will go so far as to conjecture that, in fact, any semantics for parallel composition a+b (in an otherwise Cabra-like language) that combines results from both a and b will not be right-distributive." < 1266522941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be hard to get around, even for only the programs that always halt. < 1266522970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right the problem is how to run c on the results < 1266522981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it can do anything with them < 1266523144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the * operation needs to distribute the multiple/negated results from the left part to different invocations of the right part < 1266524265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266525987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. <-- possibly discworld related? < 1266526174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, couldn't you do addition with different sign as long as you don't have the same value on both sides? < 1266526217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I completely misunderstood you < 1266526242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all 1 + (-42) = -41, but 1 + (-1) = 0, so the former case should work but the latter not? < 1266526272 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266526807 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266527199 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. It is defined, just not defined everywhere. Specifically a - a isn't defined. A bit like a / 0. < 1266527261 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I updated the Potro bit of my LoUIE page again, FWIW with the algebra fans asleep. :) < 1266527281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed < 1266527400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was a nice "dual" of a field in some sense. < 1266527594 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be a partial algebra, but if that's true, fields are partial algebras too. < 1266530208 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266532044 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266532368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i solved it. < 1266532376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266532486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for R_+ \ {0} shouldn't addition, multiplication and division all be completely defined? Not substraction for a - b where b >= a though < 1266532512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that < 1266532514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, as oklopol pointed out, x + y isn't defined when x = -1 * y < 1266532532 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, hey I think you are right < 1266532538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers that
< 1266532545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wut? I must be too tired < 1266532560 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = -1 * y can't happen in R_+ \ {0} (aka R_+) < 1266532564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Addition is subtraction when you have opposite sign values :) < 1266532570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yeah < 1266532574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sorry < 1266532581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't see the + in R_+ < 1266532584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R_+ meaning all positive reals (although some people use positive to include zero, when it's convenient..) < 1266532587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1266532601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well I also added "\ {0}" after that < 1266532607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should clearly exclude zero < 1266532628 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, your statement about R_+\{0} is true. < 1266532628 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266532637 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you saying that I can tell you added \ {0} by reading < 1266532647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what? < 1266532659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even parse the grammar of that, nor the meaning < 1266532690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some comma is missing? < 1266532760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would it be possible to make some set where addition, multiplication, division are all defined for all possible combinations of values? < 1266532790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the empty set that is ;P < 1266532852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative: define what division by zero means < 1266532873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I suggest we "leave it to the reader/ask the user" ;P < 1266532962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Isn't R+_\{0} such a set? < 1266532999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as I said, substraction is not < 1266533009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266533011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, did you mean to include subtraction? < 1266533012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot that from the list < 1266533013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266533014 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266533015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes < 1266533078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that subtraction and division are mutually exclusive when it comes to "defined for all values" < 1266533091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1266533093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't prove this though < 1266533103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well the exception would be for the empty set of course < 1266533124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think that even makes sense < 1266533149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every operation on elements of the empty set is well-defined! :) < 1266533170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you could sometimes define division by zero as the limit when going towards zero I guess < 1266533184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work for all possible functions though < 1266533194 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266533194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(such as constant functions) < 1266533228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm not so happy with that. < 1266533231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or diverging (sp?) functions < 1266533331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266533348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, other things not to be happy with: that lim_{x→0}(sin(1/x)) is undefined. < 1266533353 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-198-20.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266533365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same for lim_{x→0}((sin(1/x))') of course < 1266533443 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266533523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why not add a NaN? Like we have i < 1266533532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, make NaN a real number < 1266533536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266533548 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NaN + NaN = NaN < 1266533559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, same goes for aleph_0 though < 1266533560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore NaN = 0 < 1266533568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, err no < 1266533576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in context of ring theory stuff I was talking about earlier only :) < 1266533587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by that logic aleph_0 + aleph_0 = aleph_0 gives aleph_0 = 0 < 1266533594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ridiculous < 1266533692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Earlier we were talking about how in a ring, if a + a = a, a must be 0. < 1266533792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which might explain why aleph_0 doesn't often appear in the ring of reals. < 1266533821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1266533843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, neither does i. Since it by definition isn't a real < 1266533852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but then the complex numbers are not a ring? < 1266533864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266533866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be < 1266533876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could define 1/0 as 1/0, irreducible. Basically, work on pairs of integers. < 1266533887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably falls apart somewhere. < 1266533887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266533912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do complex numbers. :) < 1266533927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1266533935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should do quaternions even < 1266533941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, they just never held any interest for me < 1266533982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about calculations with alternating current? They are rather useful there < 1266534011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you don't do that kind of stuff < 1266534165 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1266534193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, complex numbers might come in handy for computational induction. < 1266534202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1266534215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1266534224 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction like electromagnetic currents < 1266534259 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. < 1266534293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is an extremely silly idea. But fun. < 1266534378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- I first thought "what are you messing around with by doing induction over an uncountable set" < 1266534395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! Ugh. < 1266534423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is that possible btw? < 1266534429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how it would be < 1266534442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've heard of "transfinite induction" but I don't know if it's the same thing. < 1266534450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1266534453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION defers to the real mathematicians present
< 1266534469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oerjan is *not* present < 1266534511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- you should make an esolang based on this < 1266534511 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then I defer to wikipedia. < 1266534512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_induction < 1266534518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, alternating ips < 1266534520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1266534553 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to make an esolang of it, but I have too many other ideas, and no good idea where to start. < 1266534615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so throw all the ideas into one esolang < 1266534645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried that. It's not pretty. < 1266534653 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it never gets finished. < 1266534972 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266535318 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from * import * < 1266535422 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266535438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, does that work in python? < 1266535454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be rather interesting if it did < 1266535677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, you can't have wildcards in the module-where-to-import-from. < 1266535687 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266535839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I was (briefly) considering supporting it in my own language... < 1266535916 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266536223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I can think of reasons not to < 1266536333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266536428 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, the awesomeness. < 1266536433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just import everything." < 1266536587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about #include <*> as a GCC extension? Read all headers in the system include directories. < 1266536646 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266536653 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the go slow button < 1266536690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: YES < 1266536694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include "**" too < 1266536700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Include every header file in . < 1266536701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursively < 1266536844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ ls /usr/include/*.h | sed -e 's%/usr/include/%#include <%' -e 's/$/>/' > test.c < 1266536844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ gcc -c -o test.o test.c 2>&1 | grep 'error:' | wc -l < 1266536844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1144 < 1266536966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266537059 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-198-20.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266537182 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266537515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blahaha.