< 1266537609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My binding is bound to a binding. < 1266537768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tried a language construct that creates a module from all the bindings currently in scope. I wasn't really expecting it to include all the bindings from all the imported modules. And all builtins. But it does. I maybe need to rethink how to define modules. < 1266538396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266538708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, set difference to the rescue. < 1266538815 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266539118 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-162-148-227.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266539156 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266539268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, closures everywhere. < 1266539277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, just like the economy! < 1266539281 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later. < 1266539284 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266539291 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266540131 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266540219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have recently been hit with what seems to be synchronicity with regards to thinkpad 701C. The last few days it has popped up in 4 different unrelated contexts... < 1266541192 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266541402 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266541723 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266541891 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266541983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266547178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266547616 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266547833 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266550306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266551866 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266552113 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266553060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266556351 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266556654 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266556757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that < 1266556767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, i have esoteric log powers < 1266556822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. <-- possibly discworld related? < 1266556830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well _i_ was thinking lovecraft < 1266556844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with my version) < 1266557072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266557254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- I first thought "what are you messing around with by doing induction over an uncountable set" < 1266557268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as mentioned, perfectly possible in theory. < 1266557371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, you need to well-order the set first, and for most frequently used uncountable sets (reals, complexes) that requires using the axiom of choice. so you don't get any concrete sense of what the order is. < 1266559411 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266559560 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266559613 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266559942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oklopol < 1266560201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AnMaster: oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that" <<< that's why i said it on-chan, not in pm < 1266560328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, how did you know i just came here < 1266560939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it goin oklopol < 1266561184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266561501 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266561824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266562164 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266563288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266563927 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-71.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266564002 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266564748 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266565679 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266566399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266566400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266566409 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266566708 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266567980 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1266567999 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a parasitic gap which has the reverse direction: Which candidate do even supporters of __ tend to dislike __? < 1266568027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the parasitic gap is _inside the subject_ < 1266568099 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice topic btw, it's always up-to-date when you look at it < 1266568127 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: which what < 1266568138 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you, the topic < 1266568149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o; < 1266568162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont get it < 1266568162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1266568164 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /topic, that is < 1266568165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however! < 1266568171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yeah hehe < 1266568184 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indexed_grammar < 1266568189 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't know what a parasitic gap is
< 1266568192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_grammar < 1266568197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar < 1266568213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_movement_grammar < 1266568218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_concatenation_grammars < 1266568220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://example.org/I_can_also_spam_with_links < 1266568228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266568248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_gap < 1266568266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, is this programming or linguistics < 1266568274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which? < 1266568282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parasitic gap or whatever < 1266568291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all all those links you pasted < 1266568302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PGs are strictly linguistic phenomena (unless someone invents a PL with them!) < 1266568314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I won't even bother looking < 1266568347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the *_grammar links are just pages for grammar formalisms that lie roughly in the range of the mildly context-sensitive grammars < 1266568762 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which candidate do even supporters of __ tend to dislike __?" what's supposed to be able to go after 'dislike' here? < 1266568787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing. the __'s just denote the positions in which "the candidate" is understood. < 1266568797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "even supports of Bob Dole tend to dislike Bob Dole" < 1266568886 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought it was all about how you could plug in objects there that are *not* bound by the 'wh' < 1266568945 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266568953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all about the dependencies < 1266568967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the __'s denote the dependencies associated with the WH phrase < 1266569022 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what depends on what though? aren't all just gaps bound by 'wh'? < 1266569143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not necessarily < 1266569183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider the topicalized "MARY I like ___, but John I hate ___" < 1266569387 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you fill in the gaps in your question you get: Which candidate do even supporters of Bob Dole tend to dislike Bob Dole? < 1266569400 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's worthwhile to learn english grammar before you go after other grammars < 1266569427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: no, you dont fill in the gaps < 1266569428 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's the same thing as wh-fronting, yes... but there's only a single gap for each fronting, just that there are two phrases with independent bindings? < 1266569434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gaps are just there to denote the dependencies < 1266569435 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just did < 1266569440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre not things that you fill in < 1266569440 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your sentence sucked balls < 1266569443 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1266569462 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you gave us an example yourself: you put bob dole in both places < 1266569480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i gave you a different sentence without gaps and without the WH element < 1266569500 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does __ mean < 1266569530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: true, in the topicalized sentence i gave theres only a single gap for each element, but you can get parasitic gaps with topicalization as well < 1266569555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "THIS book Mary read ___ before shelving ___, not that one" < 1266569608 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what makes either gap parasitic? < 1266569608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think it's worthwhile to learn english grammar before you go after other grammars <-- my reaction too < 1266569624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: the ___'s are the conventional notation for gaps, which is the conventional way of talking about long-distance dependencies of this sort. the idiom is basically a comparison with the non-gapped sentence. < 1266569624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it looks like "fill in word(s) here" < 1266569641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: the second gap is parasitic because without the first gap, the sentence is bad < 1266569649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anyone that isn't a linguist < 1266569666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in many ways it IS, but not in the naive sense < 1266569670 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you are using circular definitions < 1266569681 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you made no sense :< < 1266569698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stems from the history of how this sort of phenomenon was treated in chomsky's early work < 1266569698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, "naive" is wrong word here I think. Replace it with "normal" or "everyday" < 1266569731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby a sentence like "John saw Mary" is transformed by a rewrite operation into "who did John see" < 1266569751 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so in fact __'s are parentheses < 1266569752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you lost information in that transformation < 1266569755 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big deal < 1266569770 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the question now < 1266569772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2, ah right if you see it that way it makes sense < 1266569777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: true. in reality it was "John saw someone" underlyingly < 1266569785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldve said that instead. < 1266569787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ? < 1266569796 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John saw someone" -> "Who did John see" < 1266569796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you should have said *who* as well < 1266569804 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the actual transformation < 1266569822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking a declarative with an indefinite "someone", and turning it into the corresponding interrogative with "who" < 1266569854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, early theory I think considered "who" to be derived from rewriting the string "WH someone" < 1266569865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever. < 1266569887 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, right, "this book mary read War and Peace before shelving ___" is weird < 1266569969 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you make it "this book mary shelved ___ after reading ___" I think either gap can be replaced < 1266569998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the first cant be "filled" < 1266570003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its essentially what you just said was weird < 1266570015 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this book mary shelved War and Peace after reading ___" is horrible < 1266570030 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, the second gap can be filled with something else and its fine < 1266570331 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266570691 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kneeways < 1266570997 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266573587 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266573936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266574079 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266578883 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266579654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266579665 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266580258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no straight man or gay top can understand the concept of not filling a gap with something. < 1266580275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you have such a hard time getting the thing through < 1266580341 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266580869 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266582171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind, the gap. < 1266583117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait where was that < 1266583375 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-148-227.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266583658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In many places, I presume; but it's what London's subway announcement speakers repeat while stopping at a station, IIRC. And it's been the title of at least one magazine article I've seen. < 1266583704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_the_gap leads by default, the Underground connection is the "official" one. < 1266584031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure but wasn't it the name of a level in some flash game < 1266584156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that sounds also likely. < 1266584387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says it's "used" in the Flash-built game "VVVVVV". < 1266584533 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266584781 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132B82.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266584812 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1266584866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure it's a game we've both played, #eso inducedly. < 1266585026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case I would have guessed that silly dot-action one, but grepping my logs didn't say anything about a mind-gappy level. < 1266585149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind the gap was a level in that star-fetching programmy game < 1266585169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that one. < 1266585172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1266585179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the level name wasn't just mentioned here. < 1266585194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Robozzle, that's the name. < 1266585223 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number 513 < 1266585504 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266585518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was pretty sure it was robozzle < 1266586367 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:59 < fizzie> Wikipedia says it's "used" in the Flash-built game "VVVVVV". < 1266586377 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last time I checked it wasn't built in flash < 1266586394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was also from Wikipedia. < 1266586395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last time I checked it was < 1266586406 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it runs on it < 1266586915 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it was straight as3 with something like flex < 1266587493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I use Flex with FlashDevelop on windows" -- I guess so; Flash-based in the runtime sense, anyway. < 1266587508 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266587802 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.249.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266587847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Dispatch 3. < 1266587902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hi there < 1266587926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd type but the keys are sticky; best fix that first. < 1266587937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266587962 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266588106 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1266588357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1266588598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A little hard-handedness, it seems, goes a way; I wouldn't say a "long way" as my troubles are still numerous, but that is the idiom. I am no longer drinking that malnutrition-treatment. It came to a head a few days ago; after having a substantial lunch, I was still forced to drink it all, despite clear, immediate, recent-in-time evidence I was not malnourished whatsoever, and continued explanation that I was completely full and couldn't drink it. Eventuall < 1266588598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y, I settled for "I'll finish it later"; my parental overlords came, "for a visit", and brought me home for the night. The next day, we requested to meet with the head honcho there, and were told he was free; he was not, and we had to say the same things to a patronising-as-fuck nurse. Later that day we got our meeting and it was resolved; they had talked to their bullshitician^Wdietician and the drinks were gone; I just had to eat something else at the tim < 1266588599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e I normally would, and have a bigger lunch every day. Big deal, I ate that much before I went there anyway. < 1266588610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do wish that XChat was better at wrapping lines. < 1266588663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that, no change; business continues as usual, except it was even more pointless as it's half-term, so no lessons, just sitting around on one games console or another all day. That's therapy, that. < 1266588675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, guys. < 1266588686 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266588741 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to get out < 1266588747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not right < 1266588752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I'm on it. < 1266588778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather endure longer than I would have to with an alternative escape plan if it reduces risk, however. < 1266588797 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is wise < 1266588833 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266588867 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266589083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But unless anyone has anything specific to ask or whatever, on to happier things. :) < 1266589108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise this is so awful I hate this < 1266589109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey's ring language sounds awesome! (Logreading while mother visits by using Opera Mini on her cheap-ass phone? Why ever not.) < 1266589120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah but it's worse if you think about it :P < 1266589434 0 :Speedy2!~mike@bzq-79-180-18-85.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266589479 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, there are very few dieticans that have any clue about how stuff works in real world. But their speciality is directing people about what to eat and thus ethical responsibility would be to actually know something about nutrion and not just brain-dead-repeat "truth" taught by big pharma courses. < 1266589539 0 :Speedy2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266589579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah - but at least the advice has improved from "DRIIIINK THIIIIS" to "eat a bigger lunch, and have some milk and biscuits at break time instead of the drinks" - to understand this, one must first understand that they appear to have this bizarre notion that, as a rule, I don't eat: I'm often praised after eating something merely because it was eating. I'm utterly baffled by this and think I know who to blame for it, but I won't say anything because it won' < 1266589579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t achieve a thing. < 1266589586 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266589591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hi scarf. < 1266589594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll cheer me up. < 1266589599 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard likes of this: The patient might be deficient in nutrient A. Dietican advises to eat food B. Except that food B _interferes_ with absorption of nutrient A. < 1266589600 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266589612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to leave to teach Java in about half an hour, but I'll be back an hour after that < 1266589655 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, my email server has taken to marking many legitimate messages with "SPAM:" or "?spam?" in the subject line < 1266589671 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas actual spam is generally marked "[SPAM?] ?spam?" < 1266589682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam, spam, spam, spam! < 1266589695 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also: The patient might be deficient in nutrient C. Dietican advises to eat food B. Except that food B does not contain nutrient C. < 1266589799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey's ring language sounds awesome! (Logreading while mother visits by using Opera Mini on her cheap-ass phone? Why ever not.) <-- since my phone has opera mini... wouldn't it be truly horrible for that purpose? < 1266589829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, the logs are just text. It folds all the lines into one, but apart from that... < 1266589857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, folding the lines sounds horrible to begin with. < 1266589868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a time and a <, it's a new line. < 1266589870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it beats nothing. < 1266589902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1266589928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well it does, it beats the built in web browser (opera mini is a java application) by far < 1266589932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on my phone < 1266589938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the built in one is much much worse < 1266589953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Opera Mini, ENHANCED BY VODAFONE! < 1266589955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it is for pure text, it would probably just download it < 1266589958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1266589959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It totally is. < 1266589963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says on the logo screen. < 1266589967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266589971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen any of this "enhancement" yet, mind. < 1266589978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which version? < 1266589979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I tried downloading a java IRC client but it just saved it as a file and won't open. < 1266589980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5? < 1266589983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't know. < 1266589995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stable release 4.2.14912 (August 3, 2009; 6 month(s) ago (2009-08-03)) [+/−] < 1266589995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preview release 5.0.17443 (December 23, 2009; 54 day(s) ago (2009-12-23)) [+/−] < 1266589998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably *not* 5. < 1266590003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the enhancement was clearly just branding < 1266590009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266590041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 is somewhat better than 4 I have to day < 1266590043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say* < 1266590072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, in 5 you can have multiple tabs < 1266590096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the user interface is easier to navigate < 1266590336 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266590464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MobileSafari ftw. :P < 1266590473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even what the fancy Nokia phones have; that's basically the same. < 1266590480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even Android's. < 1266590514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, simple nokia phones has that horrible built in thing + opera mini < 1266590523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean S60 ones. < 1266590530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it is snowing heavily here < 1266590553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have no idea what mine has (Nokia 3120 classic) < 1266590562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it isn't symbian < 1266590565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is all < 1266590590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S40, likely. < 1266590597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266590639 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was snowing here yesterday < 1266590652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm checking in the settings the version info thingy: "V 07.16\n27-05-08\nRM-354\n(c) Nokia" < 1266590668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes that actually says "(c)" not "©" < 1266590698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, RM-364, not 354 < 1266590713 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably for encoding reasons < 1266590744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Where'd you come up with "the version info thingy"? < 1266590748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it does have unicode in sms and such < 1266590763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMS tends to use 8-bit encodings, rather than Unicode < 1266590774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that's a setting iirc < 1266590777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that's changed from 5 years ago or so when I last looked at it < 1266590781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which defaults to unicode < 1266590811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Meny → Inställningar → Telefon → Tel.uppdateringar → Aktuell programinfo. < 1266590859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, doesn't apply. < 1266590861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue what it would be on a non-Swedish phone (could guess for an UK phone) < 1266590876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is under the telephony update thingy basically < 1266590904 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't have an update thingy like that. < 1266590911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266590925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has never been any updates when I checked < 1266590926 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the "App. manager" but it doesn't include builtin software. < 1266590937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have no such thing as an app manager < 1266590946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I could guess as much. < 1266590955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there are java apps in a folder < 1266590978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think nokia included some app to download/buy new apps from them/third parties < 1266591001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I looked it basically said for almost all "not compatible with this phone" < 1266591011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder why they were listed at all < 1266591024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could try to only show relevant ones < 1266591061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$$ < 1266591066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"buy a new phone get this app" < 1266591105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it didn't even say that < 1266591108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what phone it needed < 1266591128 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the advertising in PC World around the release of Windows 7 was even more hilarious < 1266591134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something expensive < 1266591135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was along the lines of "Windows 7 is out, time for a new PC" < 1266591147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, err what? < 1266591161 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seemed to be working, at least < 1266591172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't get it. < 1266591174 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many people think that a computer is inherently tied to the OS version it comes with < 1266591186 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's those that they were targeting < 1266591191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, people who reads computer magazines? < 1266591196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266591203 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who have seen adverts talking about how great windows 7 is < 1266591215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "PC World" isn't a computer magzine over ther? < 1266591217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there* < 1266591232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is, but it's mostly a chain of computer retail stores < 1266591233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is here, IDG iirc < 1266591247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, aha, that explains it somewhat < 1266591281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, who owns the trademark then, the chain or the magazine? Or are they related? < 1266591291 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea < 1266591295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266591300 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I've been wondering that myself < 1266591337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I estimate an average snow depth of 30 cm in the area I cleared this morning btw. And it was about 20 cm then. < 1266591338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1266591351 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to go teach Java, anyway < 1266591353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably will go out and clear away somewhat before it becomes too heavy < 1266591364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The forecast here is 50 cm over the weekend < 1266591368 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266591374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, something similar here iirc < 1266591396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need to go to another city tomorrow. Not possible to cancel due to weather < 1266591408 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, have fun with that < 1266591475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, test at university (yes, during the weekend, it sucks, but apparently they are short of rooms during the single week when basically every student at the university has a test) < 1266591480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be better if they spread them out < 1266591492 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.105.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266591504 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1266591508 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we have occasional exams on saturdays as well < 1266591519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, saturday *afternoon* even < 1266591520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266591592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either someone hates me or I have really bad luck. Because for every course group (two at the same time) there has been one test on a Saturday for me < 1266591594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i made some comments to you earlier < 1266591606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, where/when? and what were those comments? < 1266591625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't read logs? < 1266591634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266591636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to like you should say "or", not "and" < 1266591646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I do read scrollback, and since I saw my last line in there I suppose it must not be in logs either < 1266591659 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either you can find out how to get to the comments or you can be given them directly, no point in both < 1266591670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but no I don't read logs unless someone highlighted my nick < 1266591684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your nick was present when i comented < 1266591686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mm < 1266591694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i quoted you < 1266591703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Seems to like you should say "or", not "and" <--- < 1266591705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266591715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, maybe you don't get pinged on quoting... < 1266591727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well I do get pinged by that < 1266591737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, maybe you had timed out and not noticed it? < 1266591740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also re ring programming, cool cool < 1266591749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Read the follow-up as well... < 1266591751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um i see it perfectly well in the logs < 1266591752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway I'm going outside to clear away some snow in exactly 1 minute < 1266591753 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to be a monoid too < 1266591763 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 < 1266591764 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo a ring computer is obviously parallel < 1266591768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266591771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thus, say what you wanted now < 1266591773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :40 < 1266591773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:19:17 oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that < 1266591777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:19:27 however, i have esoteric log powers < 1266591777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1266591779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:20:22 "oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. <-- possibly discworld related? < 1266591783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 < 1266591784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:20:30 well _i_ was thinking lovecraft < 1266591786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:20:44 (with my version) < 1266591789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:24:32 --- quit: augur (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) < 1266591791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:27:34 "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- I first thought "what are you messing around with by doing induction over an uncountable set" < 1266591793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 < 1266591796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:27:48 as mentioned, perfectly possible in theory. < 1266591796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah that < 1266591798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:29:31 however, you need to well-order the set first, and for most frequently used uncountable sets (reals, complexes) that requires using the axiom of choice. so you don't get any concrete sense of what the order is. < 1266591798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + b = compute a and b in parallel, obviously < 1266591800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't see any reason to comment < 1266591802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a * b = sequencing < 1266591803 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 < 1266591805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1266591810 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mzero = _|_ < 1266591813 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See ya < 1266591859 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm so < 1266591873 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a `seq` (b `par` c) = (a `seq` b) `par` (a `seq` c) < 1266591880 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266591898 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a `par` b) `seq` c = (a `seq` c) `par` (b `seq` c) < 1266591906 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266591928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, since all are just c ;-P < 1266591945 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if a or b = _|_ < 1266591962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1266592041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: my hunch now is that this ring programming is just the endomorphism ring generated by extending computations to apply to the free abelian group over possible input < 1266592052 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely < 1266592053 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266592059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"just" < 1266592080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my n and l keys aren't pressing nicely :( < 1266592084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266592088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the provision that non-halting computations become -> 0 < 1266592099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mzero, mempty, ofc < 1266592101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's a simple algebraic construction, really < 1266592133 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Cr = Bot | Cr :+ Cr | Cr :* Cr < 1266592138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methinks I need more than just that < 1266592138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266592140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is that i'm not sure you can get something more useful than chaining all inputs in parallel < 1266592143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's nop, then, if bot is 0? < 1266592146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe nop = 0, bot = inf < 1266592156 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266592194 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: otoh a `par` b = b even if a = _|_ < 1266592204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true < 1266592206 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, of course, you need the resulting computation to have some sort of _result_ < 1266592208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your equations still hold < 1266592215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we need a new Cr, i.e. Id foo < 1266592240 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a :+ b -> Id (a' :+ b'), maybe (where ' denotes evaluation) < 1266592245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta love two-letter identifiers < 1266592259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266592285 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't think I can use par < 1266592290 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need *deterministic* parallelism XD < 1266592310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: my idea is that the result of a sum is just the sum of the results. < 1266592311 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cr Id :+ :* <-- the embedded meaning, it is blinding < 1266592322 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, yeah. < 1266592327 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This /is/ mathematics. < 1266592331 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: see, that's what I said! < 1266592338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266592346 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have an excuse to be obtuse? ;-P < 1266592360 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I also need shorthand for my convenience, since I'll be using the names a lot. < 1266592365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::+ and :* have embedded meaning, from rings. < 1266592371 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id is identity, just like id. < 1266592377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cr is Computation Ring; it's arbitrary. < 1266592397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: also this would work nicely with free vector spaces too, then you can multiply your computation with reals/complexes < 1266592398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ComputationRing < 1266592403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just me < 1266592431 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ComputationRing = Bottom | ComputationRing :+ ComputationRing | ComputationRing :* ComputationRing < 1266592431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get an algebra over a field (or another ring, if you want) < 1266592433 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just noise. < 1266592445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need to type it once. < 1266592450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care. < 1266592452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still noise. < 1266592479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you insist. < 1266592479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so a*b -> a'*b'? < 1266592481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a'+b'? < 1266592511 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266592512 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's 1? < 1266592520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*x = x implies nop, but 1+x should be > x < 1266592523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identity < 1266592529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 1+x = x? < 1266592535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, 1 = id < 1266592546 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1266592552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: What does > mean here? < 1266592561 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, okay: !=. < 1266592567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the obvious way to get a ring unit in an endomorphism ring... < 1266592580 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is 1+x with respect to x? < 1266592592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um is x a computation then? < 1266592594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what does = mean here? Computation has same result? < 1266592595 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266592598 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1' = 1, so it's (1+x') < 1266592604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess is not x :P < 1266592609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah < 1266592614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 1+x is a parallel computation that returns both input and x(input) < 1266592618 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval Bot = fix id < 1266592625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266592629 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh i see, it's basically currying < 1266592630 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what < 1266592636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: fix id :-P < 1266592642 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And? :P < 1266592652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval Bot = eval Bot < 1266592657 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychoanalysis = fix id < 1266592666 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyuk hyuk :| < 1266592669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266592669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke = old < 1266592670 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychotherapy, really < 1266592683 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so x*y = x' + y' or x' * y'? < 1266592685 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess + < 1266592691 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(' is evaluation) < 1266592717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really, eval :: Cr -> Cr -> Cr < 1266592719 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one is input) < 1266592721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i don't understand your notation < 1266592735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x' is the result of computing x < 1266592739 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said that < 1266592742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + b -> a' + b' < 1266592749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a * b -> a' * b' or a' + b'? < 1266592753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you also need to specify input < 1266592762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's the same for both < 1266592765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can be left implicit, no? < 1266592766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x*y)(inp) = y(x(inp)) < 1266592770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1266592781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x and y are deterministic computations < 1266592788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, sum all branches < 1266592788 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... you don't actually need parallelism at all :) < 1266592812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and bottom = 0 as input/output < 1266592827 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'll never be able to inspect the output... < 1266592837 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for obvious reasons < 1266592846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't think this is _computable_ < 1266592858 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm computing it simply by leaving 0 resulting in _|_ < 1266592862 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't seem unreasonable to me... < 1266592879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to have a ring you need 0 + x = x < 1266592943 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1266592951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can you even write a non-terminating program without 0? < 1266592956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not without an infinite program. < 1266592967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is really just \_ -> 0 < 1266592996 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense yes < 1266593019 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think this language is computable, and sub-TC. < 1266593044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you only use terminating programs as base < 1266593053 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I have only Bot and Id as base programs. :) < 1266593058 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Cr = Bot | Id | Cr :+ Cr | Cr :* Cr deriving (Show) < 1266593084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266593095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I need more to have anything useful. < 1266593099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait, no. < 1266593102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use Bot as (). < 1266593106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then you essentially get a free ring on 0 generators, aka Z < 1266593109 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then () = 0, (() :+ ()) = 1, ... < 1266593109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the integers) < 1266593126 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hrm, so completely unable to be used for any useful computation then < 1266593130 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess that's pretty obvious < 1266593133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266593172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what useful computations he could have
< 1266593183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we need *some* sort of looper < 1266593209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/832823.txt?key=a8bszac2sr9tpdd2n2pfw < 1266593212 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ours for the extending, anyway. < 1266593231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as i implied, you could throw any terminating functions into your base without trouble < 1266593240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still be sub-TC < 1266593269 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266593303 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, but we want to be able to calculate fibonacci at least < 1266593306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ackermann preferably < 1266593320 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a conditional, then. < 1266593325 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, we have that < 1266593329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well primitive recursion is enough for the former < 1266593345 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 x = 0, 1 x = x, 2 x = x :+ x, I think < 1266593356 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266593362 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 x = 0, 1 x = 0 :+ 0 < 1266593368 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least I think so < 1266593374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rather confusing < 1266593381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transfinite induction was mentioned earlier today, maybe you could use that, omega^2 gives you ackermann iirc < 1266593388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> eval (Id :+ Id) (Id :+ Id) < 1266593388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Id :+ Id) :+ (Id :+ Id) < 1266593448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = id i said! < 1266593485 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266593488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you seem to have left out subtraction in your ring < 1266593500 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's (1+1) -apply- (1+1) < 1266593506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (id id),(id id) < 1266593509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e... oh dear < 1266593514 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266593519 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Cr = Bot | Id | Cr :+ Cr | Cr :* Cr ?? < 1266593525 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In mathematics, a ring is an algebraic structure consisting of a set together with two binary operations (usually called addition and multiplication), where each operation combines two elements to form a third element. < 1266593526 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: computation as a ring < 1266593533 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just bot = bot ; id = 0 ? < 1266593574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that does not make any sense, I believe < 1266593575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if you want it defined as an algebraic variety, you need something like subtraction or negation explicit. otherwise you need a logic axiom for their existence... < 1266593589 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but I'm bored now :) < 1266593596 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally should a closure copy the objects it's closing over, or just separate the identifiers from the global scope? < 1266593609 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :effectively making a local copy of the identifiers < 1266593628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: if you have mutable variables you need to be careful < 1266593634 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bot + bot < 1266593636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copying doesn't work then < 1266593646 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are mutable variables? < 1266593647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: copying is less efficient < 1266593653 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... what < 1266593655 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: you misunderstood. < 1266593667 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: that's nice, you could have just restated it more clearly < 1266593672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: variables whose values can be _changed_ < 1266593690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable variables, basically. < 1266593707 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: define 'value of variable' < 1266593711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: and that means changes need to be visible to all scopes < 1266593716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: >_< < 1266593724 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: cheater is just being obtuse < 1266593727 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266593727 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest ignoring him < 1266593737 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am trying to understand something that requires precise statements < 1266593744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're being precise. < 1266593748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: for once i agree with alise_ on annoyingness < 1266593750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Var = Integer < 1266593756 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :value :: [Value] -> Var -> Maybe Value < 1266593759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy? < 1266593766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noo < 1266593766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutate :: Var -> Value -> [Value] < 1266593766 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Var = Var Integer < 1266593769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not a valid syntaxxx < 1266593772 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266593773 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah w/e :P < 1266593777 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you don't even !!!!!!!!!!!!! HASKELL < 1266593782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it was valid < 1266593791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even !!!!!!!!!!!!! Haskell. < 1266593802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even < 1266593808 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're just teaming up with her in hopes of being laid < 1266593814 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: admit =( < 1266593819 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's totally true. < 1266593823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan craves me. < 1266593827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: the thing is, iirc ML which has no mutable variables can get away with implementing closures with copying. and also iirc java does the same with a horrible hack of _disallowing_ closures over non-final variables < 1266593837 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-5-238.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266593842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML has mutable refs doesn't it < 1266593860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc they're separate entities < 1266593868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: yes, but that doesn't matter since it's not actually the variables themselves... < 1266593896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you could deal with mutable variables by copying references to them < 1266593902 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if i have a closure in python, over x, it has a local version of x. so if i later assign, outside of the closure, in the global scope, something else to x, then the x in the closure still refers to the old object. whereas if i modify the object in the global scope outside the closure, by say changing one of its fields, then the change is reflected inside the closure. < 1266593922 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person demands absolute preciseness of semantics, and then starts talking about Python's semantics? < 1266593925 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1266593933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: that just says that what python calls closure is not what one would usually call a closure < 1266593949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266593960 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data MutableVar = PointerToImmutable MutableReference < 1266593968 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada now you can do closures via copying < 1266594024 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and what is the difference? < 1266594109 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266594111 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Python's closures? That x didn't change. < 1266594124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: a real closure would see the "same" variable as everything else in the scope of the variable < 1266594147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same in quotes because you can cheat if it really doesn't matter (e.g. immutable variable) < 1266594166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pheew < 1266594182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not cheating if you can't tell the difference within the language < 1266594195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about 50 cm already btw < 1266594198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you this may be just a consequence of python's scopes being not truly lexical, also iirc < 1266594202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 was an underestimate < 1266594202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/website_burro.html < 1266594204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking hell < 1266594210 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is dragging up the past! < 1266594215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no free space for the cleared away snow any more < 1266594219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am I to do? < 1266594220 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Almost 20 inches?! < 1266594224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swim < 1266594225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest castration. < 1266594233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, har < 1266594261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, snow swining, hm. Sounds like something to add to the olympic games < 1266594313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no nearby hill to shove it off? < 1266594330 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snow swining! < 1266594335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pigs; racing through snow. < 1266594394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to nicely complement the summer sport of sow swimming < 1266594492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls the pole vault from the frc hellympics
< 1266594733 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266594756 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoyoyoyoyoyo < 1266594758 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing < 1266594765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1266594776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so I've become obsessed with one paradigm < 1266594781 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1266594793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There can be only one < 1266594797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tree rewriting! It's like functional programming, but (a) usually slow, and (b) restrictionless! < 1266594798 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION secretly hopes it's one he hasn't heard of
< 1266594806 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ooh, I like that one too < 1266594812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a symbolic computation system - we got yer algebra system. < 1266594817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a functional language - we got yer Y. < 1266594821 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Cyclexa is not really at a usable stage < 1266594828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more than cyclexa < 1266594832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1266594839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: no nearby hill to shove it off? <-- no < 1266594843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree = symbol | app tree tree < 1266594848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or I would need to go up said hill < 1266594850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program is a set of tree' -> tree < 1266594852 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional programming is a myth < 1266594854 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's effectively tree-rewriting, except it's string-rewriting with parsers determined at runtime so you can randomly reparse the string as some other tree if you like) < 1266594857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then all the neighbours would get mad < 1266594858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree' = tree except another leaf is "freevar symbol" < 1266594865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bound on the RHS and replaced < 1266594867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, this is inside a town after all < 1266594868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can have e.g. < 1266594875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not (not X) = X < 1266594876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1266594880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where caps = free < 1266594887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised there is yet another issue with time travel < 1266594890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a paradox < 1266594893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah < 1266594896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a very very annoying issue < 1266594898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1266594902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can evaluate (not (not (not x))) without defining x < 1266594905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get not x < 1266594906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266594906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are lots of issues with time travel < 1266594916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "best before" dates on products would become useless < 1266594916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also, since terms without a rule just stay inert... < 1266594918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so time travel is impossible < 1266594922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: we can use function application as data < 1266594926 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: makes sense; the tree-rewriting version of SKI combinatory logic works like that, doesn't it < 1266594928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (Cons x y), without defining Cons < 1266594930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it Just Works < 1266594933 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1266594935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah. i guess it only works if you live some way up a hill to start with. < 1266594937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yep, you can define SKI like that literally < 1266594938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, same for credit cards that has "valid to" < 1266594947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whatever the English phrase for that is) < 1266594947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also, "X + Y" doesn't have to be specially supported < 1266594949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X plus Y = foo < 1266594952 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: note that this is what Mathematica does for everything, except the bits that were hand-optimised in C < 1266594958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head term just happens to be a free var < 1266594960 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266594960 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm prepared to believe, though, that it's a good idea but an awful implementation of it < 1266594964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yep < 1266594990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q, http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/, and its successor Pure, http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/, are the best term-rewriting languages < 1266594996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure is even not hideously slow. < 1266594998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1266594998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm looking at my various cards phrases such as "good thru" and "valid thru" pops up < 1266595030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah, plus that is hardly a hill. I guess the elevation is about 5-7 meters compared to the area around at most < 1266595041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: a really cool thing is that since rules are independent, not "attached" to anything, you can "extend" "functions" < 1266595045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1266595046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not sure what the English word is. But it is called an "ås" around here < 1266595055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc factorial = "The factorial function." < 1266595057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial n = ... < 1266595060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later < 1266595063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc fib = "Fibonacci" < 1266595064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ås being not a hill due to being rather narrow but quite long < 1266595065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib n = ... < 1266595070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(doc X) is just a term < 1266595074 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266595078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as fib or factorial < 1266595088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that sort of thing leads to truly weird bugs in Mathematica < 1266595090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, currying works: < 1266595093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo x y = ... < 1266595096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foo x) just doesn't evaluate < 1266595097 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you get literal bits of its internal working dumped into your result < 1266595102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do ((foo x) y), however... < 1266595102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the English word for that scarf? < 1266595113 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure; there may not be a particular one < 1266595117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266595121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we don't really have them so we don't need to call them anything :P < 1266595132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Pure is even compiled - to LLVM, no less < 1266595140 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: we do, we just don't notice them < 1266595151 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: have you tried using it much yet? < 1266595155 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Pure's shell is a good start < 1266595156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> help < 1266595156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh: w3m: command not found < 1266595165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, alise: oh interwiki gives "ridge" < 1266595165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah that's relevant to the language. < 1266595168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't quite it < 1266595171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1266595175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, I've read a lot of the docs and wrote some simple programs < 1266595185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ridge sounds like something you would find at high mountains < 1266595191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ås is definitely not so < 1266595192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite enamored with the paradigm; and the language isn't bad. < 1266595194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i though ås (a norwegian word too) was also translated as hill < 1266595205 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a ridge is basically what you get when a lot of hills or mountains nearby connect together < 1266595208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's eager, yes, and impure, yes, but despite that it's still pleasant. < 1266595208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm maybe < 1266595210 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to create one long hilltop, that's a ridge < 1266595214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not what you were describing < 1266595225 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how can an impure language be called Pure? irony? accident? < 1266595226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad interwiki I guess then < 1266595236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, or partly overlapping meanings < 1266595247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly ås geologically is something else than everyday sense < 1266595247 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you get ridges where you live? < 1266595270 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Birmingham is in a really hilly area, so I know of a few within an hour's driving distance < 1266595274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in Sweden yes, around this part of sweden: no, you need to travel 1-2 hours by car to the nearest such place < 1266595309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you have this large almost completely flat area and then some mountains at the west side of it < 1266595325 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, sounds like a mirror-reflected version of Norfolk < 1266595335 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather hilly around the edges, but famously ridiculously flat in the central areas < 1266595340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mountains, a few hundred meters, you do notice it as pressure difference in your ears when you go over them though < 1266595361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NORFOLK: Secretly, part of the Netherlands. < 1266595365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, I live near the flat middle basically < 1266595378 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266595387 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: at least it mostly isn't underwatetr < 1266595389 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*underwater < 1266595393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266595399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, below sea level < 1266595402 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't /quite/ the same thing < 1266595422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, iirc some time after the last ice age this area was part of the sea. < 1266595436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the ground has risen since) < 1266595451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norfolk got the way it was due to being covered in glaciers during the last ice age < 1266595461 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hills round the edges are where the glaciers melted and dumped all the stones they were carrying < 1266595468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and yes, there were glaciers here too < 1266595549 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how well concatenative langs compile into tree-rewriting langs
< 1266595552 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably quite well < 1266595571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the mountains to the west contain some interesting remains such as fields with lots of round huge stones. And there is of course the occasional slab of stone in the middle of the plain. (which were put there by trolls or giants or something if you prefer the traditional stories ;P) < 1266595657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To my mind Mythryl deftly combines C speed, Lisp power, and Ruby convenience with the critical new ingredients of Hindley-Milner typing, state of the art generics and just the right level of side effects." < 1266595663 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the dangers of semi-randomly clicking on links on Wikipedia < 1266595676 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, it's an attempt to convert SML/NJ into a C-like syntax < 1266595694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C + Lisp + Ruby + Hindley-Milner + generics + side effects < 1266595697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O____o < 1266595704 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it scares me too < 1266595718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy reading the docs to know whether to laugh at it or not < 1266595721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one hell of a tagline < 1266595738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"new ingredients of Hindley-Milner typing" just sounds /confused/ < 1266595757 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Either way, this is a far cry from the hundred-plus lines of code of a typical C Quicksort implementation." < 1266595762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that seems rather critical of C < 1266595769 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"new ingredients of x" obviously does, but "new ingredients of x, y, and z" is fine < 1266595773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen a Pascal quicksort in 20 lines, and that was in a book intended to teach Haskell < 1266595778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of Mythryl, I think. < 1266595779 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, to teach Pascal < 1266595786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; that thingl. < 1266595788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing. < 1266595788 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: So how's theirs; link < 1266595802 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mythryl.org/ < 1266595806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pascal, haskell, nearly the same. if you slur enough. < 1266595823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's a pain trying to discuss Haskell with people who know Pascal but not Haskell < 1266595825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mythryl.org/my-Less_coding_effort_.html is what I wanted < 1266595827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By four years in, vomiting blood in the wee hours was starting to seem entirely normal." < 1266595829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly odd man < 1266595830 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to really emphasise the e to prevent them mishearing it < 1266595839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wizard is AWESOME < 1266595843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, this keyboard doesn't have enough key travel; though the rubber domes _do_ make a nice clacky sound. < 1266595846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it is a completely unoptimized "quicksort" of a linked list < 1266595855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It beats the previous, sticky one though, I think. < 1266595866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: theoretically pascal should stress the last syllable, i think < 1266595886 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to the 100+ C lines of a suitably benchmarked introsort on arrays < 1266595888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but a stressed e and a stressed a sound rather different < 1266595893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like bashing the fucking keys! Am I even pressing these things? < 1266595921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i'm actually not sure where haskell is stressed < 1266595925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the Mythryl guy seems to use "linux$ " as his $PS1 < 1266595932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or has his box called "linux". < 1266595937 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266595939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is just using it as an example. < 1266595944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION always stresses it on first syllable
< 1266595945 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who calls a computer after its OS? < 1266595946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or uses uname < 1266595951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Incidentally, you can do pure IO without monads in a term rewriting language, really trivially. < 1266595952 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so do I, although I don't know that's right < 1266595964 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that my uname prints Linux, but whatever < 1266595969 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what method in particular are you thinking of? < 1266595976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts s = lambda k (_PUTS s k) < 1266595987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getc = lambda k (_GETC k) < 1266595992 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks rather like a monad to me < 1266595994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exit = lambda k _EXIT < 1266595997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, it is technically < 1266595997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1266596000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we do < 1266596006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some TURT questions. Since I'm planning it for efunge. 1) Since heading (in degrees) and distance to move are both integers we might end up at non-integer x/y. This can of course be handled by floating point or fixed point math. However that poses a problem since there is an instruction to query the current coordinates. Should one return rounded-to-nearest values for it? Or round internally < 1266596006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well? < 1266596017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a C quicksort takes like 8 lines max < 1266596028 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a Joy quicksort takes one < 1266596038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x ; y = lambda k (x (y k)) < 1266596041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can say < 1266596043 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a GolfScript quicksort in something like ten characters? < 1266596043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a hundred lines you can just manually program how to sort each possible list < 1266596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts "Hello, world!"; getc; exit < 1266596049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns into < 1266596055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cpressy said that he couldn't answer it, since he wrote that stuff so long ago he really doesn't remember what was intended or anything < 1266596056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns into the monad < 1266596056 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Either, I guess < 1266596064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"REPROGRAM YOUR SEMICOLONS!" < 1266596069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda k (_PUTS "Hello, world!" (_GETC (_EXIT k))) < 1266596091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the RTS passes it some dummy end-of-thing < 1266596092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's a monad; ; is bind here < 1266596093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :value < 1266596095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tada < 1266596096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, yes < 1266596100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you never "define" the monad < 1266596102 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you deal with non-monad terms in there, though? < 1266596105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magic there is that < 1266596107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you define a CPS language < 1266596110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the sugar over it < 1266596110 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what's the equivalent of lift? < 1266596112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're defined in the same way < 1266596114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with normal rules < 1266596127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: lift doesn't lift non-monadic values < 1266596130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean return :: a -> m a? < 1266596135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes < 1266596136 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266596166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you're like most term languages, i.e. untyped, < 1266596172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need it < 1266596177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1266596177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It wouldn't surprise me if GolfScript had a single char for quicksort ;-P < 1266596180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, you could do this: < 1266596186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return x = lambda k (k x) < 1266596191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original haskell 1.0 did have a CPS I/O system < 1266596196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it probably has a single char for sort, but nothing would be requiring it to be quicksort < 1266596197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I could see issues with both variants: a) for round to query only: if program uses that, jumps somewhere else, then jumps back to continue to draw the lines might no longer line up properly. b) for round internally: angles would sometimes get distorted. And if it moves two lengths in a given angle but not in a single go you could get lines supposed to be straight that are now somewhat curved. < 1266596205 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1266596218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It could be requiring it, although that's admittedly unlikely < 1266596231 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, I can't see any amount of sugar that would mean that ; could combine IO operations with non-IO operations < 1266596241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Of course you could. < 1266596241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not sure which of those is worst. Oh btw does ccbi keep track of the heading in radians or degrees internally? < 1266596241 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about quicksort, mergesort is just usually better < 1266596248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of < 1266596249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts s = lambda k (_PUTS s k) < 1266596249 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a raster format, you will get such issues. < 1266596254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts s = _IO (lambda k (_PUTS s k)) < 1266596257 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(strangely, Java specifies the sort of primitive types to be quicksort, and of objects to be mergesort, and I have no idea why) < 1266596257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it isn't. It will render to svg < 1266596265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then just pattern-match on _IO in ; < 1266596272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_IO x ; y = ... < 1266596273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or control a real turtle bot maybe ;) < 1266596275 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe < 1266596280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x ; y = _IO (lambda k (k x)); y < 1266596288 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, that would preclude returning the puts function itself < 1266596293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266596293 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you had a separate return < 1266596296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there is no "puts function". < 1266596302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you return "puts", that's a symbol. < 1266596308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only "puts x" is rewritten. < 1266596312 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a partial application of it < 1266596317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a full application, in a lazy lang < 1266596317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a curried function: "K x" is just a term. Not rewritten. < 1266596320 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Radians < 1266596322 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1266596326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"K x y" is reduced, however. < 1266596328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it starts with _IO and so confuses your pattern matcher < 1266596332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you can have 'x = x without rewriting. < 1266596337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, it doesn't. < 1266596340 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, quoting < 1266596340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"puts" doesn't start with _IO. < 1266596344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and good point < 1266596345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts is puts. < 1266596355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts x doesn't start with _IO, either, but its reduction does. < 1266596369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could get floating point inexactness issues there when you turn in 1 degree steps or such. Like turing +1 degree 360 times might not give you the exact original heading. < 1266596389 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, so it's just going to be down to the usual lazy timing issues which drive strict programmers trying to learn Haskell mad < 1266596393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can live with those < 1266596395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing +1 degree 360! < 1266596404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, Pure isn't even lazy. < 1266596413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, another issue: the "query bounds of drawing" thingy. Is it supposed to be max bounds or current bounds? cfunge seems to do the latter, but I'm not sure if this is correct. After all it is possible a befunge program might want to scale it's drawing based on available space. And if that returns 0,0,0,0 you have some issues. < 1266596414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There are precision issues anyway since I don't use arbitrary-precision reals < 1266596421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it solves this "problem" extremely easily. < 1266596429 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266596445 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a strict language doesn't need IO chains, or IO monads, or anything like that < 1266596452 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266596457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can be strict and pure, scarf. < 1266596460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true, but tracking heading as integer degrees and only converting for actual sin/cos usage would mean the inexactness of heading couldn't increase over time < 1266596460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a nun! < 1266596478 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, but the point is you don't need to be < 1266596479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unless my Mycology results are wrong cfunge's U definitely pushes the max bounds < 1266596484 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy and impure is a lot more difficult < 1266596488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Indeed, purity is a desirable property even in a strict language - _|_ is your only enemy. < 1266596493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morrow. < 1266596496 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: agreed < 1266596496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a tradeoff < 1266596498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Back early? < 1266596515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Early? 'Tis the 4th post-meridian hour of Friday. < 1266596520 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably going to leave Underlambda impure, though, to make it easier to compile into and out of, which is after all its design goal < 1266596520 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION converts to UTC
< 1266596536 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I try to make a version that's actually useful for writing in, maybe I'll have to have an Underhaskell or something < 1266596538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, you get back at 4 PM? < 1266596541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Unless my Mycology results are wrong cfunge's U definitely pushes the max bounds <-- "huh" < 1266596544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the code
< 1266596552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, at half past the meridian today actually. < 1266596554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or thereabouts. < 1266596559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology-output/fp-turt/cfunge.txt < 1266596565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed it does < 1266596565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Early leaving on Friday... but when *would* you expect me to be back? < 1266596570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11pm? :P < 1266596571 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: U in which fingerprint? < 1266596575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I read some other fingerprint < 1266596577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, TURT < 1266596580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah. < 1266596583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err function < 1266596585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fingerprint < 1266596606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the function for figuring out svg viewport or something it seems < 1266596610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm actually curious when you thought < 1266596617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the design will be quite different from that in cfunge < 1266596633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I thought it was just a bit later in the day is all. < 1266596650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured they'd have you around for pretty much of the work week or something. < 1266596701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the people imprisoning him probably hate having to guard the place as much as he hates going there < 1266596716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since the way cfunge does it have some issues and is somewhat messy. I might rewrite it later on < 1266596747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: True, true. < 1266596759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like they enjoy it, they just have a stick up their ass. < 1266596791 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably different people making the decisions from the people who have to live with their consequences < 1266596811 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true. < 1266596824 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, or decisions would be better in general < 1266596853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of them seem to get a real kick out of power, though. < 1266596856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note to self: if you use vnc remember to turn off synergy first. That was quite confusing < 1266596875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vnc and synergy between same computers that is) < 1266596960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The infamous Stanford prison experiment (which has not been repeated for ethical reasons) gives some evidence to suggest that merely being placed into position as guard of a prison produces that. < 1266596993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Stanford prison experiment is chilling. < 1266597000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed it is. < 1266597010 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's really scary < 1266597016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But add the Milgram experiment, and it's /fucking terrifying/. < 1266597032 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't know that one < 1266597045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the one with electric shocks < 1266597049 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1266597051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The experimenter (E) orders the teacher (T), the subject of the experiment, to give what the latter believes are painful electric shocks to a learner (L), who is actually an actor and confederate. The subject believes that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual electric shocks, though in reality there were no such punishments < 1266597059 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that one, just not its name < 1266597073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The experimenter tells the teacher to keep doing it even as the intensity of the "shocks" supposedly increases to insane levels. < 1266597079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The teacher almost universally complies. < 1266597092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after a while the learner plays dead, and the teacher keeps increasing the shocks anyway < 1266597106 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266597111 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, it's highly dependent on how authoritative the experimenter seems < 1266597124 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Milgram experiment. < 1266597127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they repeated it with the experimenter wearing casual clothing, and people suddenly started acting sanely < 1266597147 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1266597159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Milgram + Stanford = Speak authoritatively, and you can get people to do horrible, horrible things - and start believing in them. < 1266597165 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Do you have a source for that? < 1266597177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the only solution is to abolish authority entirely, which poses a whole host of other problems. < 1266597178 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I did once, but can't remember where it was < 1266597184 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was third-hand information then already < 1266597196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1981/A1981LC33300001.pdf Here's the paper by Stanley Milgram. < 1266597235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Probably the only solution is to abolish authority entirely, which poses a whole host of other problems. <-- quite. First that comes to mind is things like highway robbers and what not. < 1266597246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, it's just a review < 1266597248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust AnMaster to always pick on the most trivial, boring example. < 1266597249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1266597252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn. < 1266597253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DARN IT. < 1266597255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1266597266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course. I don't want to let your expectations down. < 1266597267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong link. < 1266597269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A /bigger/ problem with anarchy is preventing a state from establishing itself. < 1266597313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes. But I thought you didn't want authority, and a state seems to me to be the prime example of authority < 1266597315 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep, you'd have to enforce it from outside somehow < 1266597317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Here's where you could read it if you paid. http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1964-03472-001 < 1266597327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the help! ...not < 1266597332 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete. < 1266597335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee broken websites < 1266597336 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the same effect seen in the Stanford experiment is seen in reality TV too < 1266597347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Duh... of course. < 1266597348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: And prisons everywhere. < 1266597349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily get people to move from the real world to an imaginary one < 1266597351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's what I said. < 1266597358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thus I didn't think you would consider that an issue < 1266597362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that there is no state < 1266597366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: actually, there are numerous ways you could avoid establishing authority < 1266597371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You did not read what I said. < 1266597374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A /bigger/ problem with anarchy is preventing a state from establishing itself. < 1266597381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a bad anarchy, gangs will form; < 1266597386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one gang will arm itself more than the others; < 1266597387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes. < 1266597388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an authority of its own < 1266597394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few generations later, we will call it the state. < 1266597399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh right, I read that as the other way around < 1266597399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no, as in societial ways < 1266597410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266597422 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, you ingrain the importance of anarchy into everyone so much that they assume there's no other way? < 1266597427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like teaching rational thinking to children from the very start < 1266597432 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and parents teach it to their children? < 1266597442 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, rational thinking doesn't necessarily imply anarchy, I don't think < 1266597444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, no; that's supporting ignorance - but letting people figure out why the anarchy is superior while they're children through rational means < 1266597453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: certainly < 1266597465 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah < 1266597467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you use rational thinking and come to the conclusion that anarchy is bad, well, don't try and establish a stable anarchy :P < 1266597471 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not certain the anarchy would be superior < 1266597476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor am I < 1266597483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anarchy is only superior if the people involved are ethical, of course... < 1266597490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you conclude rationally that it is, that is the best method of sustaining it < 1266597499 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: pretty much /any/ governmental system works if all the people involved are ethical < 1266597507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1266597508 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in such a case, you may as well use anarchy to save costs, or communism for the benefits < 1266597509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right; the transition from state to anarchy is the hard part, because you need everyone involved to be pro-anarchy until you can teach the children about it < 1266597514 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just not going to happen in practice, though < 1266597516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need stablility for a generation or two < 1266597519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do differ largely in how they deal with a lack of ethics. < 1266597523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: right < 1266597569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I can't figure out whether the most popularly expected (and thus almost certainly wrong) post-Friendly-singularity outcome is dictatorship or anarchy < 1266597569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, the real solution is singularity. < 1266597588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would basically become the operating system for space; preventing harming another while allowing otherwise total control to everyone < 1266597598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, are the laws of physics a dictatorship? < 1266597608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if yes, then probably so is the singularity; otherwise, probably not < 1266597622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about the Asimov outcome? < 1266597632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define < 1266597636 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a robot government was set up for a while, but it decided that its own existence was harmful for mankind < 1266597637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, disambiguate) < 1266597638 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it phased itself out < 1266597643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: that's not a singularity < 1266597646 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it isn't < 1266597652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can imagine a similar outcome happening from a singularity < 1266597659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Friendly seed AI would self-modify until it *is* beneficial to mankind < 1266597670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it cannot, then it suggests that mankind is perfect already, which is total bullshit. < 1266597699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not perfect; the idea was that people inherently resent having computers in charge, and that dealt more damage than any good the computers could manage would do < 1266597703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(specifically, a seed AI with a correctly-specified supergoal, such as C.E.V., would achieve this supergoal at any cost (you account for acceptable and unacceptable losses in the supergoal)) < 1266597727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: then the singularity would improve our minds so that we did not mind the idea, which would presumably be increased intelligence + an understanding of what AI really is < 1266597738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming the supergoal does not forbid doing such things, which it probably doesn't) < 1266597742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or it would make itself voluntary < 1266597758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, perhaps, attempt to explain why it is good to the people who say no < 1266597782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it would probably still prevent harm between the people who say no, though, through simple moral imperative) < 1266597809 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat related reading (or, at least, this stuff brought it to mind): Eliezer Yudkowsky's "Three Worlds Collide", http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ < 1266597809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ridiculous idea: the singularity decides that there's something special about humans as they are now < 1266597815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. maybe it discovers God exists < 1266597816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yes, I love TWC < 1266597819 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and likes humans in particular < 1266597820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I say probably, by the way, < 1266597823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean almost certainly not. < 1266597839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as does everyone else who tries to predict what the Singularity, or any other transhuman entity, will do; by definition we /cannot know/) < 1266597874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Three Worlds Collide protip: read the Normal Ending, then the True Ending < 1266597885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, because I like trope subversion: there will be two Singularities which get created at more or less the same time < 1266597885 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. read it in order < 1266597889 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which end up jealous of each other < 1266597897 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they refuse to work as a team < 1266597901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Both Friendly, yes? < 1266597906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this messes up the typical benevolent self-improvement thing < 1266597912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, but the choice is offered in the last pre-ending chapter. < 1266597915 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're both friendly in general, but have a blind spot where the other is concerned < 1266597924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no such thing as Friendly-in-general. :) < 1266597929 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266597939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but if you just read top-down like most people do you'll do it right. :-P < 1266597941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If an AI is almost-Friendly, it will modify itself so that it is Friendly (unless the blind spot is in a really inconvenient place; in which case, it's Unfriendly). < 1266597961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: If they are both Friendly, then they will not be jealous of each other purely because this prevents the good outcome. < 1266597968 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266597984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If either is Unfriendly, then either the Friendly one (if there is one) will become more powerful and kill it, or we are fucked. < 1266597995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your outcome is impossible, and you should feel bad. :P < 1266598045 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, more fun: a Friendly singularity is created, but somehow sandboxed because people don't trust it < 1266598067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can't fulfil its whole outcome, and there are people who want to turn it off in the fear it's actually Unfriendl < 1266598070 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Unfriendly < 1266598092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't box a transhuman < 1266598095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox < 1266598107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition it will outsmart us; and even a human can unbox itself, see above < 1266598166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason Creating Friendly AI is a large, serious work; because there really does seem to be no other alternative < 1266598205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Those are no fun, they're secret < 1266598214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what about a singularity not happening, because nobody can afford the energy bill? < 1266598228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That irritates me too, but it's to stop people going "ha ha, that wouldn't work on me", I think. < 1266598242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't help but think that specifically because they're secret >_< < 1266598244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an AI can't be brought to the level of intelligence where it could outsmart that because it would be too expensive < 1266598249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well. Ask him :P < 1266598253 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing I just read about that stanford prison < 1266598254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: are you saying that even human + omega intelligence requires too much power? < 1266598261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: baader-meinhof phenom :P < 1266598267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: because certainly human doesn't, we're living proof < 1266598267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, saying a transhuman would convince any human of something is like saying a human would be a superior dolphin < 1266598271 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe that's just me < 1266598277 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not quite < 1266598280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: and once it goes past a certain point of intelligence, oh snap nanotech < 1266598285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, FFS, all you have to do is chat with a dude for a few hours and then end up saying "no" < 1266598286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it isn't a problem any more < 1266598293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, that's the whole point. < 1266598297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that human + omega intelligence implemented by humans, and therefore very inefficiently, may require too much power < 1266598311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If the conclusion wasn't highly unintuitive, the page would not exist. < 1266598323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That therefore doesn't follow. < 1266598327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: And the AI is self-improving, remember. < 1266598348 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean, that the singularity won't happen because we never get an AI to a self-improving stage < 1266598348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a massive data centre, perhaps even with specialised hardware, I find being unable to emulate a human incredibly unlikely. < 1266598355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm can a human really construct something smarter than a human? < 1266598358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the AI will be /better/ than a human then, for it will be rational. < 1266598363 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because we're technically incapable, but because nobody will put in the effort < 1266598365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. It just can't understand the whole of it at once. < 1266598369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I don't see any reason why not < 1266598373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perhaps < 1266598375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I thought the same too once, but I conclude it's a silly objection based only on intuition. < 1266598380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Consider two people working together. < 1266598381 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I mean we can build things bigger, and stronger, so why not smarter? < 1266598381 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are lots of things we can't understand the whole of at once even now < 1266598384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: there is no self-improving stage < 1266598385 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they're a lot less smart than us < 1266598389 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why would we not understand it all even if it is smarter? < 1266598390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you build the AI to self-improve from the start < 1266598392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter how dumb it is < 1266598396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you give it the supergoal from the start, too < 1266598402 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if it's too dumb, it'll just reach a dead end < 1266598403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, that aibox thing is really pissing me off now < 1266598404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you make it intelligent enough, manually, so that it will not fuck things up royally < 1266598407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and set it ofc < 1266598408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*off < 1266598409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, alise < 1266598413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant what about it? < 1266598414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Email him and complain. < 1266598423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complain about what? < 1266598423 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you could just set evfunge trying to solve the problems of world hunger or whatever < 1266598424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no reason at all to get angry. < 1266598425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true that < 1266598428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: its secrecy < 1266598434 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you probably wouldn't even be able to describe the problem in enough detail < 1266598435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with that? < 1266598447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, that's what the hard part is: making it intelligent enough. < 1266598450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: He hates it. < 1266598465 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to respect the unknown unknowns < 1266598469 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes < 1266598470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's like a magic show, it's not at all interesting until you know how he does it < 1266598472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Then email him. < 1266598477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting angry is just, well, irrational. < 1266598487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's meant to be a warning, not a show :P < 1266598500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "angry" < 1266598512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Probably the hardest part is: You cannot turn it on. Is it done yet? No, completely done? Have you /proven/ it will work? In independent systems? No? Then you cannot turn it on. < 1266598522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it doesn't seem like a magic trick to me < 1266598527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Can you even /imagine/ writing a program like that? < 1266598536 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: people would be bound to try test runs < 1266598539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to me it's an interesting psychological experiment, i don't care about the AI aspect < 1266598545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No. You cannot. < 1266598545 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I have imagined writing programs like that, but only very simple ones < 1266598556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sure it's sort of a crucial part of the experiment, but maybe you know what i mean. < 1266598557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you are sure it is Friendly, you cannot turn it on. < 1266598557 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I don't think it works < 1266598567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only be sure of that when it's completely done and proved correct multiple times. < 1266598577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't think humans would be capable of proving an AI Friendly < 1266598583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cannot" as in "cannot by sheer risk". < 1266598607 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I don't trust humans in general not to do ridiculously risky things < 1266598610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a self-improving AI of a certain minimum intelligence, and it is not Friendly, and you run it, the world will end. < 1266598634 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a slightly tangential subject, I've been wondering if there are any Hello Worlds around which are completely bug-free < 1266598638 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if the answer is no < 1266598639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, doing nothing is highly risky, as someone else might create an Unfriendly AI; getting responsible, highly intelligent people to create a Friendly seed AI is the most responsible thing < 1266598645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include < 1266598671 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard C hello world has a few bugs, such as not handling output redirected to a disk which is full < 1266598671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How would e-mailing him help? He explicitly says he won't tell anybody < 1266598677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { if (puts("Hello, world!") == EOF) { return EXIT_FAILURE; } return EXIT_SUCCESS; } < 1266598694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ask for his reasoning. Either you'll be convinced or you'll only have wasted a very small amount of time. < 1266598722 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have wasted /his/ time, which is rude < 1266598740 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant -- you haven't said WHY this is annoying or you don't like it < 1266598744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, you Finn. < 1266598749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266598753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm sure he's so pro-knowledge that he would not mind. < 1266598757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's that kind of guy. < 1266598763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1266598789 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I cannot possibly fathom what could bring someone to change their minds thusly < 1266598801 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am annoyed that not even a hint is given < 1266598801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And that is why you would. < 1266598821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ?? < 1266598837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you could fathom, without seeing, why you would lose, you would not lose. < 1266598848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you cannot, the AI can manipulate you in this way, making you lose. < 1266598863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? Non sequitur < 1266598869 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the whole secret box thing, I can easily imagine how an AI would be let out of the box < 1266598872 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eliezer is not a superhuman AI < 1266598883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But he knows something you do not (how to win the AI Box experiment). < 1266598895 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution, presumably, would be to have too many layers of indirection < 1266598898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you found out that one secret, the point is that he, a mere human, achieved it. < 1266598906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what would someone more intelligent than us think of? < 1266598909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We cannot know - that's the point. < 1266598919 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise he doesn't know how to win it < 1266598921 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to believe the concept < 1266598928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: He won twice. < 1266598928 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just wanted to test if he had the ability < 1266598929 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the only person who can talk to the AI can't themselves let the AI out of the box, then you have one layer of indirection in that the AI has to teach them to let someone else let them out of the box < 1266598942 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm finding difficult to believe is specifically Yudkowsky winning < 1266598945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: "Come over here, read this! You won't believe it" < 1266598948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he did actually win more than twice, but he also lost in a couple of times < 1266598951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, he is a very intelligent man. < 1266598952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no < 1266598955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiply that times hundreds of layers of abstraction and governmental-level forms < 1266598956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far, this test has actually been run on two occasions. < 1266598958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results of the first test: Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nathan Russell. [1][2][3][4] < 1266598958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results of the second test: Eliezer Yudkowsky and David McFadzean. [1] [2] [3] < 1266598961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he won both times < 1266598962 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I am saying he doesn't have a winning strategy < 1266598971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's most like running faster than someone else < 1266598979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember that the other party is intelligent, too; he got them from the SL4 mailing list. < 1266598985 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think even a typical average human could learn a winning strategy for that, given enough effort < 1266598986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, but consider that he's /human/. < 1266598987 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's why he didn't always win < 1266598991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he did < 1266598992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1266598995 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh what does being human have to do with it < 1266598996 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266598996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he won every time < 1266599005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because a seed AI that wanted to escape would be /transhuman/ < 1266599008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more intelligent than humans < 1266599013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we would not be able to predict how it would subvert us < 1266599020 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it would win every time with unlimited high stakes :P < 1266599026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be able to manipulate us like toys, by the sheer fact that it is more intelligent than us < 1266599033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes, for humans < 1266599033 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yudkowski just wins most of the times, when the stakes are < $2000 < 1266599039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but not for transhuman < 1266599040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1266599044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: *Yudkowsky < 1266599050 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266599053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the challengers were *very* sure of themselves < 1266599058 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean, a typical human could win every time, so a transhuman would have no trouble < 1266599062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seemed to have a huge point to prove and were very forceful < 1266599068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their conceding emails, meek and concise < 1266599073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's a big part of it, I think he needed that because otherwise he wasn't testing himself < 1266599076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ah, yes < 1266599085 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a typical human without training < 1266599097 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in his coming of age series he talks about other times when he run this experiment and didn't win < 1266599097 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, say, magicians have lots of practice getting people to miss a particular details < 1266599107 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*miss a particular detail < 1266599111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, point is: Since Yudkowsky did it, as a human, the risk with an entity of massively greater-than-human intelligence is too great to consider. < 1266599121 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine compelling someone to do something in particular through psychology is, with practice, just as easy < 1266599121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266599124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a box is not a viable risk-reduction strategy. Only Friendliness is. < 1266599131 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I needed any convincing of that :P < 1266599133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ah, ok then < 1266599138 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my RL acquaintances has fun getting strangers to randomly give him their wallets < 1266599147 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hell? < 1266599148 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he gives them back, but it's always funny < 1266599150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that aibox link is _not_ up to date. i do recall another page where he said he has done it more times, and lost some. < 1266599157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1266599159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: via psychology < 1266599159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, as I said < 1266599162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human vs transhuman < 1266599170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sl4.org/archive/0207/4689.html -- as recently as 2002, EY had the most annoying IRC habit ever! < 1266599179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION says to scarf: "He did this instead of normal messages."
< 1266599179 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic trick is to make them assume they're supposed to give you something while they have their wallet in their hands < 1266599201 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but that's a bit different < 1266599214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hmm, is it theoretically possible to have an /unbreakable/ box < 1266599214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No it's not; tricking people is exactly what an Unfriendly AI would do to escape. < 1266599215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol it must be fun talking to Eliezer for two hours < 1266599217 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's abusing the subconscious to make them give you something other than what they think you're giving you < 1266599221 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, one that nobody could let the transhuman out of even if they wanted to? < 1266599222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point is that its moral system is insufficient. < 1266599238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise couldn't a friendly AI convince it's way out too though? < 1266599240 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is no, but I'm not certain < 1266599240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Theoretically. But I imagine a transhuman could find laws in ANY human code so complex. < 1266599250 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then go on to be really good to people more efficiently. < 1266599251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes, but that isn't a problem < 1266599252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: One way of letting it out: Remove the box code. < 1266599254 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1266599264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, I was assuming an actual physical box here < 1266599265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: If we cannot let it out entirely without rewriting it - well, the AI would rewrite itself. It can do that; it's self-modifying. < 1266599272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah most human codes have laws < 1266599272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Then no, that is impossible. < 1266599285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Of course, if it is somehow literally impossible to let it out of the box... then it is useless. < 1266599292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once we are sure it is Friendly, the whole point is to let it out. < 1266599297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sure, you presumably need to trick people (or he wouldn't've won), but you still need to type exactly "I am letting you, the AI, out now"; that's more like "I'm giving you what's in my hands" where he's wrong about what's in his hands < 1266599298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it's a waste of time (and immoral). < 1266599307 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the idea I'm thinking of, is to get one that you're sure is Friendly, somehow < 1266599308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: True. < 1266599313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: then you need no box < 1266599319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then let it be the only thing that can make the decision of whether to let a /different/ AI out of the box < 1266599322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let it out; that's the end-goal of a singularity < 1266599324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you box it, then make sure it's Friendly < 1266599331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it specifically says it wasn't a cheap trick < 1266599333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is, then it should have no problem with letting a different AI go singularity < 1266599334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in between those two, it escapes because it's Unfriendly < 1266599339 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't know whether it's Friendly < 1266599355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, that's what I meant. < 1266599355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We cannot be sure of anything < 1266599359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266599364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the problem is that you can't be sure the first one is Friendly < 1266599365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we must prove the AI Friendly multiple times in different systems in different ways before running it < 1266599369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't we be sure? < 1266599375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because we are fallible < 1266599379 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: But I can't help but think there's /some/ kind of trick involved in making the guy believe that letting it out is better. < 1266599382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what use is two proofs compared to one < 1266599382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can /always/ have made an error and missed it, or proved the wrong thing, etc < 1266599389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because the computerised proof system could have flaws < 1266599399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the proof could end up proving the wrong thing, so another way of proving it helps too < 1266599411 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an AI in a box, you should never let it out. Simple as that. You can /never/ know /anything/ about it. < 1266599428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't beleive so < 1266599446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of mathematics is that you can make accurate statements about the infinite mind < 1266599455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infinite mind"? < 1266599460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No mind is "infinite", whatever that means. < 1266599464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, yes, in mathematics. < 1266599470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing for anything potentially dangerous like that, really: humans too. < 1266599472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But our proofs, our proof systems - they are all fallible because we made them. < 1266599481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a quote (Takeuti) < 1266599494 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266599495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: anyway, you can know it's Friendly to an acceptable degree of risk < 1266599502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you work that out /before/ you run it, of course < 1266599506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never bother with a useless box < 1266599520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lesswrong.com/lw/uq/ais_and_gatekeepers_unite/ says '2 heavily promoted "victories" (the 3 "losses" are mentioned far less frequently)' < 1266599525 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"they are all fallible because we made them" -- isn't that a pretty basic fallacy ? < 1266599532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: and EY is human < 1266599534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transhumans arenot < 1266599535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a CHRISTIAN said it, it must be wrong! < 1266599537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are not < 1266599551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yeah, that's a pretty basic one. < 1266599551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only would it be incomprehensibly better at it: it would be faster. < 1266599554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, as I and MissPiggy have both said, transhumans are fine. I had a problem specifically with EY. < 1266599558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two hours with Yudkowsky; seconds with a superintelligence. < 1266599559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OK. < 1266599561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I agree. < 1266599561 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1266599565 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's not "must be", it's "can be" < 1266599566 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say transhumans are fine < 1266599568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was just an example that the risk is high, not a proof that EY is transhuman :P < 1266599574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: transhumans are fine for the ai box < 1266599578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also, I meant that < 1266599582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a high risk they are fallible < 1266599582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be wrong even if it's claimed by a computer < 1266599584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we are fallible < 1266599586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah you know what i mean < 1266599594 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what does "transhumans are fine for the AI box" mean < 1266599602 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get transhumanism it seems ridiculous to me < 1266599610 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trans humans? < 1266599613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH I'm a bit doubtful even of transhumans but transhumanity implies so many things that whatever, I have to accept it as a possibility < 1266599615 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are transhumans like transfats? < 1266599634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Well, we take a human. And make them more than human. < 1266599646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using transhuman to refer to an entity of greater-than-human intelligence. < 1266599647 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more organs = more human! < 1266599648 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I meant that we both agreed that if you have an actual superhuman AI, it can win the AI box experiment and get itself let out. < 1266599652 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you more than human if you have cancer? < 1266599658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do all transhumans, substituting intelligence for some other characteristic occasionally. < 1266599671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pop-sci definition of transhumanism is just horseshit, we don't want to breed with pigs or anything. < 1266599675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apart from me!) < 1266599676 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't? < 1266599678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, still pretty damned human. < 1266599682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the /others/ don't < 1266599687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I didn't know you cared! < 1266599695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1266599758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm rather sure just giving the computer lots of brains wouldn't make it great at convincing people, sort of like how really smart people can suck at talking to humans. i think it would have to be so smart it could actually study the human brain to learn how humans should act in different situations. sort of how a human wouldn't make a great doplhin no matter how much we studied them. < 1266599763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about this for a theory < 1266599787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason that transhumans won't exist is to prevent them breaking out of the sandbox which surrounds what we think the Universe currently si < 1266599788 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1266599794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: of course a transhuman AI would Know How Humans Work < 1266599796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the movie avatar basically says that humans would make great dolphins. < 1266599804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how? < 1266599806 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that's an interesting point -- but don't you think the AI could just treat a human as a program (that doesn't have a manual)? < 1266599811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it study physical brains? < 1266599812 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, we're in a simulation; if we create a transhuman it'll break out /of the simulation/ to the universe outside, and whoever's simulating us is too scared of that to let that happen < 1266599816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see any other way < 1266599818 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because /it/ might not be Friendly < 1266599826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it would study how we react to us, and how we reason < 1266599827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and psychology < 1266599828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266599842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, a superintelligence (superintelligence > transhuman; basically, not only of greater intelligence, of incomprehensibly vastly greater intelligence) could predict how we would react to a situation with near-1 probability < 1266599842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but we can't even figure out how ants work based on watching them < 1266599849 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf ooh I like that < 1266599857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because we are so unintelligent compared to it that it is trivial for it to reason how we would react < 1266599860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because we're humans, not transhumans < 1266599869 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have incomprehensibly vast intelligence, and i can't really do that < 1266599869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but we are transants < 1266599870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so are not intelligent enough < 1266599880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes, but you need a certain level of intelligence to even do that to any system < 1266599885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transX != can understand X < 1266599892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sufficiently transhuman = can understand ants < 1266599902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more transhuman = same, but with humans < 1266599908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superintelligence = can understand just about anything below it < 1266599913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: dunno, i stick to my ants and dolphins. < 1266599922 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266600010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm vastly more intelligent than your mom. Does that make me transmom? < 1266600013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I doubt that there's anything more complicated to the AI getting free than a very good Hannibal Lecture: find weaknesses in the Gatekeeper's mental and social framework, and callously and subtly work them until you break the Gatekeeper (and thus the gate). People claiming they have no weaknesses (wanna-be Gatekeepers, with a bias to ignoring their weakness) are easy prey: they don't even see where they should be defending." < 1266600013 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is it possible to have something superintelligent enough that it can fully predict its own actions? < 1266600015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much, I'd say < 1266600019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm not certain < 1266600031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well you /are/ male, so you've got the trans bit down < 1266600033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that quote is close to what I was thinking < 1266600042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has weaknesses < 1266600042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes, but the technical term for being smarter than her is "even more transmom" < 1266600053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: we do that all the time, we look into the future < 1266600064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't predict its reaction to situation X without the information it will know at that time, though < 1266600066 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep, but we're not very good at it < 1266600077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't predict the unknown future, no matter how intelligent it is :) < 1266600087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd probably be very good at knowing what it'd do assuming it doesn't change /vastly/ < 1266600102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: is it possible to have something superintelligent enough that it can fully predict its own actions? <-- err no I doubt that. try predicting: "Will I halt?" < 1266600112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every time someone in this conversation uses the word 'vast', take a shot < 1266600121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it's a useful word < 1266600126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, rabble rabble bark bark. < 1266600127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's vastly useful < 1266600127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just because the halting problem is unsolvable in general doesn't mean it's unsolvable in any particular case < 1266600129 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vastly useful < 1266600129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: That will involve vast quantities of alcohol. < 1266600140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I beat you to it by a vast margin < 1266600144 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of programs that can trivially be shown to halt, or to not halt < 1266600146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does foo () { foo() } halt < 1266600148 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will i halt? yes *shoots himself* < 1266600156 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1266600159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: warning: you CANNOT ANSWER THIS < 1266600163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: which language, and does its optimiser do tail-recursion? < 1266600163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what language < 1266600166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1266600167 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP < 1266600168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fucking pedants :) < 1266600168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can answer it in befunge ;P < 1266600171 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266600172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: irrelevant, infinite memory < 1266600175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the latter question) < 1266600178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true. Still, it seems unlikely that an AI will be a simple program < 1266600183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define (foo) (foo)) < 1266600184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme < 1266600190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: irrelevant < 1266600195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I correct in assuming alise is ehird, because who else would have a female nickname? < 1266600195 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge foo () { foo () } < 1266600197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not simple programs, we can still predict what we'll do to some extent < 1266600200 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsupported instruction 'f' (0x66) (maybe not Befunge-93?) < 1266600203 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is correctable < 1266600204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you are < 1266600212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Sukoshi-x or whatever she was called :P < 1266600218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, ehird) < 1266600219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, it spammed me with error messages in an infinite loop < 1266600220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in befunge98 as in egobot that will reflect due to file IO being disabled iirc < 1266600220 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway back to AI! < 1266600222 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sukoshi is not a female nickname < 1266600224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sukoshi isn't female < 1266600230 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I was vastly beat < 1266600231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does sukoshi ever come around? < 1266600232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot the actual name < 1266600232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until EgoBot itself halted it < 1266600233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she isn't? < 1266600233 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she's female but the nickname isn't < 1266600235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the name < 1266600240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright then < 1266600240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but there will be no stdio in that program < 1266600245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no she hasn't been around in years < 1266600248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've been sexed up twice already!) < 1266600250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: who cares if it reflects or not, given that it has no halt instructions? < 1266600252 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's too bad she was cool < 1266600252 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266600263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one time sukoshi just randomly decided to try to get me to do a programming project with me < 1266600267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was like mmm sex < 1266600269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true. < 1266600273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: With yourself? < 1266600288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no with her < 1266600290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but it will halt on any real system after some time due to memory running out. < 1266600299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should masturbate more often if thinking of a programming project with yourself gets you excited like that < 1266600300 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely wonders if oklopol is the only openly heterosexual person here
< 1266600301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, assuming no file io < 1266600317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what does } do if there's no preceding { < 1266600319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflect? < 1266600323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't help it, i love vaginas < 1266600324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, *think* so < 1266600328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: are you hetero? < 1266600333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'll just bounce between the } and f < 1266600334 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes < 1266600338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: then the answer is no. < 1266600341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love pickled vaginas < 1266600341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a while since 少し has been here. < 1266600342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's just that programming by yourself doesn't usually imply them < 1266600343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in 98 it won't bounce on the f. < 1266600344 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmmmm < 1266600344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, now < 1266600346 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, before < 1266600349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: bah! < 1266600350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was someone saying something about AI? < 1266600351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, f will push 0xf on the stack < 1266600351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Few years, I think. < 1266600352 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: oh lol < 1266600353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266600354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember < 1266600356 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*with her < 1266600358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: are you saying that a function call cannot call another function to determine its answer? < 1266600366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because human sociality has side-effects... < 1266600377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ours! We're pure < 1266600377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i'm secretly sukoshi < 1266600378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: r u fag < 1266600383 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sorry, I've lost the context somehow, there are four conversations going on at once < 1266600394 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: pikhq is openly straight < 1266600397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll terminate one or two < 1266600398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266600416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I apologise, it's a shame when a conversation ends for a stupid reason like that < 1266600429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: more than one person openly hetero = do x <- determine scarf's sexuality; make sure x is hetero; return yes!! < 1266600431 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are straight people basically self-hating? < 1266600440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick lets start another 5 discussions! < 1266600442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people don't find themselves very attractive < 1266600446 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sublimate their hatred of themselves into liking of the opposite sex < 1266600446 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh < 1266600451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's answering a different question, though < 1266600464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh shut up < 1266600472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm attractive < 1266600502 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I think it varies from person to person; I met a girl once who openly claimed that all men should be straight and all girls should be lesbian or bisexual, on the basis that girls were just that attractive < 1266600502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i'm the only attractive male i know < 1266600514 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :-D < 1266600520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: a lot of stupid men are like that :P < 1266600526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: at this point, augur cries < 1266600538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait but a girl? < 1266600541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read that as guy, man, whatever < 1266600545 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, that's what made it surprising < 1266600546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferrence engine playing up again < 1266600556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all girls shuold be bi, all men should be bi, and people should live in these big sex communes < 1266600568 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think a self improving AI program would be written like? < 1266600575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we could just have universities be those communes, that would be a perfect world < 1266600592 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it would be written in dubious PHP < 1266600596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is the English word for a train that got thrown of the rails now again? < 1266600598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, people are just that stupid < 1266600600 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: derailed < 1266600603 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: fix improveSelf < 1266600608 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's more falling off than being thrown < 1266600609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, we should all be bi poly switch herms. < 1266600616 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src improveSelf < 1266600620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Complicatedly. < 1266600627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah, can it be used in a metaphorical sense about a discussion (like the Swedish equiv. term can) < 1266600640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it can < 1266600643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, if so, I think that applies to this/these discussion(s) < 1266600647 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some idioms survive the language switch < 1266600656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I don't see why a derailed discussion is necessarily a bad thing on IRC < 1266600665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf because the new one is boring :P < 1266600665 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's being done socially, rather than an actual attempt to achieve somethign < 1266600666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hard to know what languages copied/also-invented a given idiom < 1266600667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*something < 1266600674 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been trying to derail this one for the past 20 minutes and i'm still not sure i succeeded < 1266600681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : OTOH, I don't see why a derailed discussion is necessarily a bad thing on IRC <-- I didn't say that < 1266600684 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: which one? < 1266600686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, you didn't < 1266600690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is quite common in this channel even < 1266600698 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: i don't even want to mention it for fear it might recur < 1266600700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because I say something doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with you < 1266600715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex stuff is easier on the brain, if i wanted to talk about interesting stuff, i could just be reading my books < 1266600716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not alise < 1266600716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it was probably derailed *before* you began, thus you should probably try to rerail it instead < 1266600722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well technically that's not talking < 1266600736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what books oklobook < 1266600742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i agree, this is better for many reasons < 1266600748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: universal algebra still < 1266600750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266600754 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to do some work < 1266600757 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-108-150.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266600762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am very unmotivated < 1266600772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually also combinatorics on words and complex analysis and some other stuff < 1266600802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're motivated, it's easy to motivate yourself to do pretty much anything < 1266600825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266600833 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266600837 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're motivated, it's easy to motivate yourself to motivate yourself to be motivated... < 1266600959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, tree rewriting. < 1266600970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of that recent xkcd that wasn't a complete disaster < 1266600976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about tautologies < 1266601003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one was fun. < 1266601005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266601007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also kinda boring. < 1266601015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1266601025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it wasn't exactly a unique idea or anything. < 1266601028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266601034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just "ha ha, it's a silly social situation that amounts to a tautology if you interpret it naively." < 1266601035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well boring xkcds are kinda boring < 1266601039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266601056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I said it wasn't a complete disaster. I didn't say it was great. < 1266601069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : just because I say something doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with you < 1266601070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not alise < 1266601074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, scratch that one. < 1266601077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266601095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perfect quoting there ;P < 1266601106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called a joke. :P < 1266601126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I somewhat hoped it was unintentional, it would have been funnier < 1266601163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I ought to think more about typed tree rewriting. < 1266601172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266601195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what sucks? tree rewriting < 1266601206 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if one of your trees is MS Word DOM < 1266601211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266601219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ms word have a dom? < 1266601228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait, it is xml based nowdays < 1266601230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it does < 1266601236 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it has a dom < 1266601251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, did old-pre-docx word have a dom then? < 1266601262 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266601268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: not tree rewriting like that. < 1266601290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, if so, doesn't every document have a dom? possibly even plain text? < 1266601350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266601373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, then how do you define a DOM < 1266601388 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch of objects representing something < 1266601394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain text only has one object < 1266601399 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a particularly simple dom < 1266601400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266601418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but if the document format is not object based? < 1266601426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may have DOM but do you have DOOM? < 1266601428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >_< < 1266601429 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: eg? < 1266601431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ... < 1266601435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^ // < 1266601437 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how can something not be object based? < 1266601442 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266601443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1266601449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex, i guess < 1266601461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda stupid to talk about dom in latex < 1266601464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how the heck do you manage to >_< my jokes so quickly < 1266601468 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, not latex < 1266601468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I was thinking of latex documents without pictures yes < 1266601470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant AnMaster < 1266601471 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean ps < 1266601473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for being an idiot < 1266601485 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impossible, it's the second time today < 1266601486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How can you make an OBJECT of something that isn't OBJECT-BASED?? What is this DOM mystery????" < 1266601487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO < 1266601514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, ps? oh that too indeed. Even more so. < 1266601519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266601521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you objectify it, of course. just watch out for the feminists. < 1266601528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could consider a page an object < 1266601537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except iirc it isn't defined like that in the ps code < 1266601602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but please define a DOM for ps then :) < 1266601613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only use the diarrhea^Wdi�resis when it's the same letter twice, right? < 1266601624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you don't. < 1266601646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "metaethics" is actually spelt meta�thics. < 1266601657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any two vowels, to show that they aren't a dipthong < 1266601677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that ridiculously clunky most of the time? :P < 1266601682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People will think you're writing in german. < 1266601689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like how pre�mptive looks, though. < 1266601699 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there is porn of people pretending to be feminists...
< 1266601701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :co�ffici�nt < 1266601704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, wouldn't it be yöu then? < 1266601711 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: err, really? < 1266601714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y isn't a vowel there, I don't think... < 1266601716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gërman ïs just lïkë thïs, rïght? < 1266601718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: really what? < 1266601718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me it would be coëfficient < 1266601719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh right < 1266601721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot that < 1266601727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a a vowel in Swedish though < 1266601727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becaise ie form a dipthong in that word, the way I pronounce it < 1266601729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Co eff fishy ent. < 1266601730 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*because < 1266601742 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: co eff fish shent < 1266601751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one issue with the di�resis; your spelling depends on your pronunciation. < 1266601760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, if people put the dipthongs in, people would have consistent pronunciation! < 1266601762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dutch uses the same mark in a similar way, (for example co�ffici�nt), but for compound words there is now a preference for hyphenation - so zee�end (seaduck) is now spelled zee-eend.[3] < 1266601786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity, that's a great word < 1266601794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266601796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is there any unicode symbol for i without the dot? < 1266601806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is zee�nd for you, my duck-loving enemy! < 1266601819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: surely, it's a turkish letter < 1266601829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266601838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a good rule for the di�resis would be: only use it if replacing it with a hyphen wouldn't look ridiculously silly. "co-effici-ent" looks silly; "co-efficient", I think, doesn't. < 1266601871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate the word coefficient!!!!! < 1266601879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to write a typomogrifier program that does the boring stuff like smart quotes, but also ae to �, oe to �, stuffvowel-vowelstuff to stuffvowel(�vowel)stuff, etc. < 1266601882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, why? < 1266601886 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it SUCKS < 1266601888 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266601889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, *why* < 1266601890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you'd have to write "co-efficient" a lot, but still. < 1266601898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you could plug in rules, like coefficient -> co-efficient. < 1266601905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would then reduce to co�fficient. < 1266601922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, by that logic shouldn't you write dis-able for example? or de-normalise? < 1266601954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de-norm alise < 1266601963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s isn't a vowel, AnMaster. < 1266601969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err, isn't it de-normal-ise? < 1266601987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course norm and normal are quite close < 1266602005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data point: The New Yorker (though I loathe to follow any rules it prefers, as it's a pretentious rag in general and especially in this area) only uses the di�resis for repeated vowels. < 1266602006 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266602010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now where did i put that figlet *whoosh* again... < 1266602022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So pre�mptive but coefficient. < 1266602026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well true. still using a - there doesn't make much sense to me. It seems like co/de/un/re/dis are common modifying prefixes to words in English < 1266602029 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: wait, someone uses the diaeresis /at all/? < 1266602037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and a few more) < 1266602056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: "Despite its long history in English, the di�resis is now increasingly rarely used, with the The New Yorker magazine[2] and MIT Technology Review being prominent exceptions." < 1266602057 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266602063 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why isn't it spelt diæ̈resis? < 1266602071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: wait, someone uses the diaeresis /at all/? <--- my reaction too < 1266602076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because � is pronounced � < 1266602078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a-e :P < 1266602085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diah erry sis < 1266602093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, I mean diaeresis over the æ itself < 1266602099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, it's a separate vowel from the i < 1266602102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1266602106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how would you pronounce æ? Same as æ/ä in Scandinavian languages? < 1266602110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dye a re-sys is how I pronounce it < 1266602114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you're right. < 1266602117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just ridiculous. < 1266602120 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I pronounce it dee erri sis < 1266602121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: e, basically. < 1266602123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a. < 1266602123 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266602126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�, is how you pronounce it. < 1266602131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so quite different then < 1266602134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like ae in Latin < 1266602141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't know latin < 1266602141 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally < 1266602146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, d�mon is pronounced demon, I believe. < 1266602149 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just pronounced like an e sometimes, though, like in that word < 1266602173 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's inconsistent, compare "daemon" to "paella" < 1266602181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is paella? < 1266602187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paella < 1266602189 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second comes from Latin indirectly, which goes some way to explaining the discrepancy < 1266602189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know either. < 1266602195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought paella was paëlla < 1266602204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in pronunciation) < 1266602213 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aëaëaëaëaëaëaë < 1266602216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's not p�lla, it's paella. < 1266602218 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's more like paeëlla < 1266602228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�which does not bode well for my transmogrifier. :) < 1266602229 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not pa-ella < 1266602232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pie-ella < 1266602237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suksi paeëlla < 1266602238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd just write p{ae}lla, I guess. < 1266602239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that looks like something from Finland < 1266602246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"paeëlla" I mean < 1266602249 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266602261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Paella is a Catalan word which derives from the Old French word paelle for pan which in turn comes from the Latin word patella for pan as well." < 1266602264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my only conclusion is that English spelling makes no sense < 1266602280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paella is not an English word. < 1266602300 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes it is, just because it originally came from another language doesn't stop it being English < 1266602304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, nor does most other languages with a written form of the language that is old enough < 1266602304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1266602314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But English is basically the T (top) of languages. < 1266602317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We encompasserate everything. < 1266602322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what age is the limit though, I would guess a few hundred years < 1266602326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't love Compose any more. TeX-style input is better. < 1266602328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write \top, dammit. < 1266602334 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is relatively certain that "encompasserate" isn't a word
< 1266602342 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think I know what it means, anyway < 1266602350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you have 4 different ways to spell one and the same sound (which also happens to exist in no other languages)? < 1266602362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also \"e but that's just a Special Case < 1266602372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls reading a claim about an indian language which was considered to encompass all of english
< 1266602372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also, I don't love Compose any more. TeX-style input is better. <-- easy in ERC ;P < 1266602391 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably < 1266602399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most sounds in English have something like 10 ways to spell them < 1266602399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in reply to what? < 1266602407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so you're not encompassionate about it? < 1266602407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the 4 different ways thing < 1266602417 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ouch, is that even a pun? < 1266602418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�lienate < 1266602425 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels pun-like, but not exactly fitting the description < 1266602427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is _now_ < 1266602428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well okay, but most sounds aren't unique to English though < 1266602428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, I know.) < 1266602455 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to mention that vowel sounds are different in different parts of the UK anyway < 1266602459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a puntmanteau < 1266602467 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: stop it, seriously < 1266602483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: am i getting your computer wet? < 1266602486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_alphabet#Spellings_for_the_sje-phoneme_.2F.C9.A7.2F < 1266602493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually more than 4 < 1266602500 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, I'm feeling physically ill < 1266602515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 4 quite common variants < 1266602521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1266602533 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully it's just tiredness rather than bad puns < 1266602543 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although bad puns have induced similar effects in me before, probably psychosomatic < 1266602552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and iirc no other language has that sound basically, possibly apart from Norwegian (looks at oerjan) < 1266602574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are other fun phonemes, like "ly" in Hungarian < 1266602584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that my linguistic and typographic style is at odds with my �sthetics in other areas. < 1266602591 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I can even pronounce well enough that a Hungarian would know what I meant, if not well enough to sound anything like a native < 1266602612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, how comes? < 1266602624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and what does it sound like roughly? < 1266602628 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was in Hungary for a week < 1266602632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I revel in things like �, � and di�reses, but eschew such fancy in my other areas. < 1266602650 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and start to say l, except you inhale in the middle of it and end with a Germanish j, (rather like an English y) < 1266602658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then you picked it up quite quick < 1266602664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i assume you mean sj, which is not the same sound in norwegian. although we _do_ have several spellings for the equivalent (sj, skj, sk) < 1266602668 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we had lessons on how to pronounce hungarian < 1266602669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, Germanish j = Swedish one? < 1266602673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, f�deral. < 1266602673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know german < 1266602674 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably < 1266602685 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to me, that second letter looks like a half-size s-acute < 1266602687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right < 1266602689 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoding issues? < 1266602693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has been practicing swedish sj lately while singing in the shower :D
< 1266602694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oe < 1266602701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, weird encoding issues < 1266602701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, can you pronounce a Swedish "sju"? < 1266602708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i _think_ so < 1266602714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not ś, but œ < 1266602718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the benefit of UK people: sv:sju = en:seven) < 1266602731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the swedish u isn't quite the same as norwegian either, i understand < 1266602742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ours is middle, not front) < 1266602756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh that came out as it's not ś, but [box with numbers in it] < 1266602767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I saw what alise said < 1266602780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i _think_ means our u is rarer than the swedish one, i'm not entirely sure though < 1266602785 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was just pasting what I saw < 1266602796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, more like the Finland-Swedish u? < 1266602810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah, I think I just accidentally got first post on a Slashdot article < 1266602817 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I even said something vaguely sensible < 1266602819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, further back and tongue more curved I think < 1266602848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, link? < 1266602854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about every other non-sv speaking person? < 1266602860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :US, Canada, Finnish... < 1266602873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/19/1614216/Jacobsen-v-Katzer-Settled-mdash-Victory-For-FOSS?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29 < 1266602879 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the literal "mdash" in the URL < 1266602883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true, but writing "non-Scandinavian" was longer and there did only seem to be UK people present < 1266602898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finland is scandinavian. probably < 1266602899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyahhnn < 1266602902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yep < 1266602911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't understand swedish < 1266602913 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jacobsen v katzer's a pretty interesting court case, actually < 1266602923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, none of those people here atm < 1266602929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the last two screens for me < 1266602941 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, jacobsen wrote an open source project (licenced artistic licence), katzer completely ripped it off, not complying with the licence, nor even preserving attribution < 1266602946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, true, but writing "non-Scandinavian" was longer and there did only seem to be UK people present < 1266602949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even that would be wrong < 1266603007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? You mean me and oerjan, well that was given that we understood it < 1266603021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I only saw you and scarf in scrollback in addition to that < 1266603071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does not stop it being wrong < 1266603092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how? < 1266603120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, log reading, and if they are from US or whatever they could use this info. It is optional to feel bad about doing so. < 1266603148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were attempting to provide a strictly-correct alternative < 1266603158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to a wrong one; and then gave reasons why you did not say this < 1266603168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, you failed the first; "non-scandinavian" would not be correct < 1266603177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, your statement was not correct < 1266603179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple < 1266603180 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads the settlment
< 1266603201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, iirc you are taught some Swedish in Finnish schools < 1266603204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I guess the Finns in here, at least, understand Swedish to a reasonable extent < 1266603210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is second language < 1266603212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb phone < 1266603222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very small second language. < 1266603244 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how actively scientific-type people tend to forget it after their last compulsory lessons are over < 1266603292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266603313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still, learning to count to ten would be amongst the basic things < 1266603315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is older than me and so could weigh in here < 1266603327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least from my experience of learning second languages < 1266603349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, settlement is that Katzer and his company cannot use the OSS code in question at all, can't register any names similar to it as a trademark, and must pay $100,000 to Jacobsen; further disputes have to go to mediation, with the loser paying all the costs from them < 1266603390 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the court's entered the settlement as being legally binding < 1266603395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so knowing that sju = 7 should probably be pretty common. If it had been some complex word it would have been a different situation. < 1266603837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ought to work on my term-rewriting language. < 1266603858 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise are you going to self implement it < 1266603863 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in the language < 1266603922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you ought to work on a language with a very non-traditional syntax thats only describable by one of the roughly mildly context sensitive grammars ;D < 1266603925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, the eventual goal is probably that, yes � most likely as part of the OS. < 1266603940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially those MCSGs that I recently created wiki articles for :D < 1266603954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I thought you said tree rewriting, not term rewriting a few minutes ago? < 1266603989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing < 1266604028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, in some cases < 1266604061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266604063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are the same thing. < 1266604140 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string rewriting and tree rewriting are computationally equivalent; tree rewriting just makes implicit certain string properties that otherwise would be explicit < 1266604166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, a string can be viewed as a tree with only one non-terminal node < 1266604222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus string rewriting is a special case of tree rewriting with completely flat trees < 1266604470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? tree rewriting lets you do string rewriting in the nodes? < 1266604503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1266604511 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you rewrite the tree < 1266604532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just that the tree is completely flat, with all terminal nodes hanging from a single non-terminal < 1266604538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh < 1266604543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, being an idiot < 1266604550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266604550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one *non*-terminal node < 1266604672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1266604676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no, afi < 1266604982 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266605344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I had managed to mostly-forget my Swedish very muchly after high-school years, but on the other hand it seemed to come back rather rapidly when I did one course to pass the compulsory Swedish stuff for the university. I don't know how much I'm biased by the fact that my wife speaks Swedish with her relatives, though. < 1266605423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you get an opportunity to get the Swedish credits without taking a course, just doing an exam? < 1266605553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but I didn't feel certain enough that I'd pass it without problems. In retrospect, I probably would have, since I only sat on the Swedish course lectures -- didn't read ~anything at home -- and got a 5 (out of 5) for the course, and the higher grade of the two possible for the compulsory part. < 1266605590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266605591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1266605610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but even before you forgot most of the Swedish you surely remembered a few words? < 1266605621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably how to count to ten? < 1266605630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before I forgot, I remembered quite many words, I would say. :p < 1266605640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err, before university I meant < 1266605643 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even after he forgot, he clearly knew quite a bit < 1266605645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before you had to remember again < 1266605657 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am reasonably certain I could have counted to ten. < 1266605660 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is to say, he didn't forget as much as it sounded like < 1266605710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1266605714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I did "long Swedish" (for non-locals: started on third grade, so studied a total of 10 years during compulsory education and high school) before, that might also have had an effect. < 1266605739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: On the third (or how many'th this is) hand, Swedish (the long one) was my worst subject in the matriculation examination thing. < 1266605741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is the type of person that generally gets the higher of the two possible. < 1266605757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst, as in, the only one which you didn't get max points on? :-P < 1266605780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I actually only got an M out of it. < 1266605786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Z < 1266605791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to rewrite terms fff < 1266605801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I don't think I got maximum points from anything else than maths.) < 1266605815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266605832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An M from the long might be equivalent to max from the short < 1266605849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's possible, I guess. I don't really know the relative difficulties. < 1266605869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least E, I guess. < 1266605906 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it weren't then it wouldn't be harder than the short, which wouldn't make much sense. :-P < 1266605983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For non-locals that don't have the same scale; the matriculation examination grade scale here goes I, A, B, C, M, E, L from worst (well, failed) to best; they come from Latin: improbatur, approbatur, lubenter approbatur, cum laude approbatur, magna cum laude approbatur, eximia cum laude approbatur and laudatur. < 1266606006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B and E are rather new grades, though; it used to be just I-A-C-M-L. < 1266606021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rather"? Aren't they a few decades old at least? < 1266606032 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E was added in 1996. < 1266606037 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn < 1266606054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B and M in 1970, it seems, so "originally" it was just I-A-C-L. < 1266606091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only did Swedish anyway, and in 2005 < 1266606134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did six topics, in 2002 (I think), so E wasn't exactly "new" at that point either, but still. < 1266606272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't those defined as percentile intervals, by the way? < 1266606315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Or at least there are official percentile numbers they're aiming at, nation-wide. I'm not sure if they strictly follow it. < 1266606354 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numerical grades are too hard < 1266606361 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much easier to remember IABCMEL < 1266606368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there's also four subclasses of I, denoted "i+", "i", "i-" and "i=". You get "compensation points" from other non-i grades, and if you get enough of them (what "enough" is depends on which one of those four i's it is) you may get a non-fail "i". < 1266606408 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This I either didn't know, or had forgotten.) < 1266606488 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: It's also nice when some form somewhere asks for an average of these letter grades. There's no completely official way of computing the average; there used to be one, but it was deprecated. < 1266606511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deprecated? Why? < 1266606523 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266606558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't know. It was that "yleisarvosana" thing, and it's no longer included in the papers, so it at least feels a bit deprecatedy. < 1266606561 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's almost as bad in north america < 1266606568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266606574 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something called the GPA, which is a number on the scale from A to B < 1266606587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think A is normally zero < 1266606591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but B varies from one place to another < 1266606593 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahoy < 1266606598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoha < 1266606615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: They added the E grade and removed that at the same time; so the old rules for computing the average don't really work any more, since the E grade is not included in them. < 1266606622 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when a university asks you for your GPA, they expect you to give it to them in their scale < 1266606626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1266606643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course they don't tell you what their scale is < 1266606657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indexed_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_movement_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_concatenation_grammars < 1266606678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think I used just the median of my grades when I needed one for the graduate school application. Not that they really cared about that, but the form had a field for it. < 1266606858 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always wondered what the point of such is < 1266606884 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise < 1266606897 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they can verify it, why ask you, and if they can't, they can't use the info for anything important < 1266606972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They certainly didn't ask for the corresponding certificate papers, so I don't think they could verify it. < 1266606993 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266607009 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266608130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, to further mess up things I have my degrees in two different systems < 1266608180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for those I read as a CS student, and one for a few other courses I took on the side. < 1266608201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope I never have to calculate average for that. What is average of 5 and VG? < 1266608549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we have some different systems in the university course grading too (for example, the aforementioned compulsory Swedish is graded either "acceptable" or "good"), but I think all not-in-the-standard-1-to-5-scale grades are ignored when computing the average. < 1266608596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've ignored them, at least < 1266608656 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-201-100.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266608681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think they are also officially ignored by the thing that computes the final diploma averages. Certainly they're ignored in the record transcript printout. < 1266608705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an average in the record transcript? I haven't noticed. < 1266608745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant: I think they are also officially ignored by the thing that computes the final diploma averages. Certainly they're ignored in the record transcript printout. <-- why? because they couldn't figure it out either? < 1266608761 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there is no sensible mapping < 1266608784 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you map pass/fail to a numeric grade? < 1266608792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could look at what is "not passed" "passed" passed with excellence" in the various systems < 1266608800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in our numerical system fail is 1 or 2 < 1266608805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically there's only one, pass < 1266608806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I wouldn't mind a 0/5 mapping. :) < 1266608814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fail isn't included in the transcript < 1266608823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, we have two pass in the letter system. Or 3. Think it is only 2 at university < 1266608825 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266608832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one fail < 1266608844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1266608865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish is the only one on my transcript that's not 0-5 or pass/fail; it has that fail/acceptable/good tri-valued thing. < 1266608868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 0/4 seems more reasonable if same as here < 1266608869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mapping it to 5 is sensible in some ways but it has the unfortunate effect of raising everybody's averages :-P < 1266608877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1266608926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I'd know a lot of people who'd hate a 0/4 mapping; those people for whom averages are Serious Business, and a 0/4 mapping would drag them down a lot, since there's quite a number of compulsory pass/fail courses. < 1266608955 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's why you can't really map it to anything other than 5. < 1266609099 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it really is most prudent to just ignore them in averages :-P < 1266609596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1266609603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oy < 1266609604 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266609677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, should I stop attempting to remind you? I vaguely recall you saying that it wasn't the plan anymore < 1266609710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are waiting on a response from the advisor-in-matters-regarding-lawsomes first. < 1266609718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1266609899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was pretty annoyed at out swedish course being fail/2/4 < 1266609959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So it really is most prudent to just ignore them in averages :-P <-- err. Why not change them to use the same system as the other ones? < 1266609966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, one single system would make more sense < 1266609998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, why were you annoyed at that? < 1266610011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 2 is a fail degree here < 1266610042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what fizzie said < 1266610049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drags my average down < 1266610129 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, that's a separate issue < 1266610136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While we have them, it's best to ignore them < 1266610381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, has no one suggested that you all change to one system? < 1266610408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, with enough other courses that you get 5 in your average would approach 5 < 1266610418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you then round to 4 decimals you could get 5 < 1266610445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it's been suggested < 1266610454 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's 5 now, if you round to one decimal < 1266610463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, see :) < 1266610468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 4 would require about a thousand courses < 1266610483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well sure. rounding to 1 decimal is probably saner anyway < 1266610505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write it as 5.0 then (or 5,0 if you use decimal comma like in Sweden) < 1266610670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we use it, i don't < 1266610795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...omg i'm back on irc < 1266610809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't even notice < 1266610819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266610820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266610835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone think of a better computational model of the reals than floating point? < 1266610852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. fast, but without such inanity as breaking such fundamental mathematical laws as equality and... just about everything else < 1266610855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not reals i guess < 1266610862 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed point < 1266610879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floats are an inexact model of the rationals < 1266610882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just rationals, except with a less stupid representation than 314159/100000 < 1266610882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the reals < 1266610890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm maybe off by one with the zeros there < 1266610891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah i know < 1266610900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals are closer < 1266610905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar i mean rationals really < 1266610910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: fixed point breaks mathematical laws doesn't it < 1266610913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overflow < 1266610925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you can overflow to (Z,Z) < 1266610927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want arbitrary precision? < 1266610986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... no < 1266610988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just want a pony :) < 1266611018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really I just want something that programmers everywhere could replace every occurrence of "float" in their code with, and think "gee, my program runs a bit slower but suddenly I don't feel like cthulhu is resident in all my values any more" < 1266611018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well you can't have one < 1266611082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if I have a fancy dependently-typed functional language I want to require rings to come with a proof of of a*(b+c) = (a*b)+(a*c) < 1266611095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and floating point doesn't let me do that, because it is a bad person and hates mathematics. < 1266611108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least, I think NaN fucks with that example; if not, substitute one it does fuck with) < 1266611124 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can just define = to be rougly equal?? < 1266611155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean people write programs that use floats which compute with error bounds so ... it's not like it returns a random answer < 1266611167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, = should mean /equal/ < 1266611168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it isn't an equivalence relation and cthulhu is totally present again < 1266611187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can quotient by an equivalence relation < 1266611198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "Rational" satisfies the "Cthulhu has left the building" constraint but not the "gee my program isn't a /billion/ times slower" constraint < 1266611199 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the identity type works < 1266611208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You have to define "programmers everywhere", some programs do rely on float behaviour (and others on their HW-speed) < 1266611219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I don't care, it's still Really Surprising Behaviour when the rulez are broken < 1266611224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it restricts how I can optimise, for one < 1266611227 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266611237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, those programs aren't written in my glorious languages :P < 1266611262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you only meant yourself, just use fractions of arbitrary precision ints < 1266611281 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Google Calendar: Unless you're planning on making Google Maps work with SLUrl for virtual locations, please don't bother making a map link. < 1266611294 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although it's really a trivial issue I guess *shrug*) < 1266611297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The reason I don't want that is that it's... well... not fast. < 1266611307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not on today's CPUs, at least. < 1266611322 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have programs that rely on the speed of that enough for the difference to be noticeable? < 1266611425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you want something non-Lovecraftian, it'll be slow. < 1266611432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I'm just /assuming/ that rationals are pretty slow, because people don't use them. < 1266611439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but not /glacial/. < 1266611484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. What's the issue with: < 1266611491 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree /STRONGLY/! < 1266611496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If overflow is a problem then it'll be pretty glacial I'm afraid :-P < 1266611509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rat (an integer) < 1266611514 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cheater4 < 1266611514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := Fixed thatint < 1266611519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdf < 1266611520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1266611531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed-point with compile-time dynamic size (and run-time too for bigfloats) < 1266611535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to write correct programs that are efficient! < 1266611544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the smallest integer representation that can store all the values of that size < 1266611547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get my point < 1266611557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except whence "that size" < 1266611559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's lesser than reals, e.g. you don't get 1/3 < 1266611565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: compile-time or run-time < 1266611570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if run-time, increased on overflow < 1266611574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like int->bigint conversion < 1266611576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And often enough it'll be run-time and hence glacial < 1266611583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not /glacial/... < 1266611596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glacial enough < 1266611603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is equivalent to what I said modulo implementation details :-P < 1266611690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as glacial as (Z,Z) < 1266611693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the point < 1266611750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell are you talking about < 1266611751 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to say; maybe not < 1266611760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen, people do something called NUMERICS < 1266611761 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266611767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when they do that they find algorithms which < 1266611769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A) WORK < 1266611772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(B) FAST < 1266611789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about numbers of the form m/2^n ? that's at least a ring < 1266611808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and should be fairly fast since floating point is < 1266611820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(here i'm intending unbounded n) < 1266611827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bounded m? < 1266611832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no that too < 1266611832 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the computation class for [[Hyper Set Language]]? I think it is at least turing complete because you can implement the S and K combinators. But is more than turing complete? Or is something make it less? < 1266611876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: erm can that represent 3.14159? < 1266611887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly i'm not thinking very clearly about this, some sort of mental block prolly :P < 1266611909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: this a set language? if you can define the halting set, then you'd be super-TC is my intuition. < 1266611939 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That is what I am asking, too. Do you think there is a way? If you read it, try to figure out if you can figure out anything from it, if you want to < 1266611944 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hyper_Set_Language < 1266611947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's just storing an arbitrary number of bits < 1266611953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ofc < 1266611957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you want all field equations (and dividing by 10^n generalizes to dividing by any natural number), then you pretty much force the rationals to be an exact subset < 1266611984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, superset surely < 1266611997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming 3.14159 = 314159/100000 there) < 1266612010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, subset. you get at _least_ all rationals < 1266612026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266612050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, the question is "what is an efficient representation for the rationals" < 1266612065 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationals? < 1266612069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1266612071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(m,2^n) at least, intuitively /seems/ faster than (m,n) < 1266612071 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With natural numbers represented as sets, the less than operation is easy, A is less than B if A is an element of B. < 1266612107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait, I'm not seeing the values for m and n to get 3.14159, prolly doing something stupid < 1266612143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.shoeboxblog.com/?p=15314 < 1266612205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> 314159 / (2 ** 16.61) < 1266612205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.140807200338285 < 1266612210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably m and n : Z, though < 1266612258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: :D < 1266612263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can store some of the correct first digits of pi, just like with base 10. < 1266612280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but not 3.14159 *exactly* < 1266612296 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just GIVING UP if you think you can't do correct and efficient programs < 1266612308 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it's difficult, but if you think it's impossible you are educated stupid < 1266612314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: of course not, 314159/100000 is in smallest terms < 1266612319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and evil < 1266612324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait what the hell is that .16 about < 1266612324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually the whole thing < 1266612324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can, you just need a lot of bits < 1266612325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266612326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 < 1266612326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah true < 1266612327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266612328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah wtf am i thinking < 1266612328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we shouldn't have to fuck about with representations for hours just to get something that runs before the universe is o'er, and that is correct < 1266612339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah :/ < 1266612342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can represent reals as sets by making it a set of all the natural numbers that are the bit positions in the real that are set < 1266612344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> 314159 / (2 ** 16.609640474436812) < 1266612344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.141589999999999 < 1266612347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :close enough :P < 1266612355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot get rid of the prime 5 factors in the denominator < 1266612359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't do numerics either but it's a really important part of computing and without it nothing would work well < 1266612364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we know < 1266612378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant meant if you want correctness /in general/ it's glacial < 1266612383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than inventing special representatiosn each time < 1266612384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, i'm being completely retarded atm < 1266612384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1266612385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does glacial mean? < 1266612415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow. < 1266612496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are you familiar with any of the usual constructions of real numbers as sets? < 1266612519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals are nice apart from the whole lack of equality thing < 1266612521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda bum < 1266612522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess yours works as one of them < 1266612535 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, I am not familiar with that < 1266612577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait how is (m/2^n) more efficient than (m/n)? < 1266612578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetic? < 1266612603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah it's mostly like binary then... < 1266612617 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m/2^n + u/2^v = (m(2^v)+(2^n)u)/2^(n+v) < 1266612626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two multiplications instead of 3 < 1266612639 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with n/m, you have to keep doing gcd < 1266612649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those multiplications are shifts < 1266612650 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh except for 2^v & 2^n has to be computed.. < 1266612666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh oerjan you are good at this < 1266612672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so stuff like addition are really slow < 1266612723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266612734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that this representation doesn't seem to have many of the numbers humans like :( < 1266612747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least floats "usually" are pretty similar to decimals if you stick to obvious things < 1266612760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that's no real objection, just a human one < 1266612765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, wait, oerjan < 1266612768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't a subset of the rationals < 1266612777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't represent 314159/100000 < 1266612784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1266612798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are swapping sub and superset < 1266612804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right < 1266612806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be a superset < 1266612807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>= < 1266612808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said < 1266612829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said, if you want all field equalities < 1266612848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do :< < 1266612850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including division. m/2^n only supports addition, subtraction and multiplication exactly < 1266612853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess (Z/Z) is the best for me then < 1266612861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doth make me sad < 1266612884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266612890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266612897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it support division < 1266612898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3 < 1266612904 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise but you don't care about nice looking numbers, all that matters is being within some tolerance of them < 1266612905 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1266612906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the bright side, you at least can have equality work exactly with those < 1266612907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1266612909 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the output of the algorithm is too < 1266612918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is not 'impossible to do efficiently' < 1266612919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere in there i read it supports division < 1266612922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266612933 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like you have to have lots of dynamic checks all over, you just have to do a lot of hard analysis < 1266612952 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nontrivial stuff, that's why you can't just make a field out of it < 1266612955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: of course, but a human will be sad if he punches in 1.33333 and gets something like 1.01725 back < 1266612967 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah that is why I use an exact calculator < 1266612976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with floats they're at least, you know, close enough < 1266612984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a calculator is different than numerical algorithms < 1266612986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll just totally love rationals < 1266612991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes but they need specialised code anyway < 1266612991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno I am scared to use floats < 1266613002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use them without a lot of hard work on paper < 1266613004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about the main thing you get when you think "oh I need sum division here" < 1266613027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't like floats < 1266613030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you program satellites or something? < 1266613067 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the usual constructions of real numbers as sets? < 1266613096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my OS/language is going to be so amazing :| < 1266613113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think once you go beyond the four arithmetical operations you quickly lose exact equality no matter what you do. for example, afaik it is unknown whether pi*e is rational, so you might hit a case where you cannot decide pi*e == p/q < 1266613115 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the normal one I know about is cauchy-convergent sequences of rational numbers.. so it's basically a list of fractions that tend toward some real number (each one being within a smaller tolerance of it) < 1266613136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you cannot represent "pi" or "e" < 1266613141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only approximations to some tolerance < 1266613143 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: OK, I guess that's one < 1266613149 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but there's also some different constructions like in constructive-math you can represent them as programs which print out the n'th digit in finite time < 1266613150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this ties into my idea for implementation types < 1266613151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1266613153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you might in some representations < 1266613158 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unknown whether e*pi is rational? 8| < 1266613159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an (opaque) value pi or e or 1/3 or whatever < 1266613163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah it is < 1266613164 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: of course adding them produces a new progam etc etc < 1266613166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266613172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and an opaque type Real < 1266613175 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, that too is one, like something < 1266613178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not known whether e+pi and i think e*pi is algebraic, but rational, that was new to me < 1266613184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and at compile-time, you plug in some acceptable representation for it < 1266613187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Float or Rational < 1266613194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266613198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it uses the definitions of pi or e or 1/3 for that type < 1266613200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e*pi might be easier for algebraic < 1266613200 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 (that's not really set theory though but I just thought that's a cool way) < 1266613200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: dedekind cuts are one. you then first construct the rationals and then a "cut" is a splitting of all rationals into two sets with the left set elements smaller than all the right set elements < 1266613211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1266613211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you write code that you can prove correct but cannot wrong (because e.g. it does = on computable reals) < 1266613217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the boundary between them is always a real number < 1266613221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and substitute elsewhere whatever representation is acceptable < 1266613223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool methinks. < 1266613241 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no you can't just write a correct program on R and then use it with floats < 1266613245 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in Hyper Set Language I could write a code that converts the represent as programs which print out the n'th digit into the one I specified at first, too < 1266613247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case it's definitely known e*pi is irrational, it just hasn't been proven < 1266613250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: of course it won't be correct on floats < 1266613255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you specify an _acceptable_ type manually < 1266613259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're ok with floats < 1266613263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want rationals < 1266613272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want computable reals because you don't use = and don't care about speed < 1266613272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and MissPiggy mentioned cauchy sequences which i was thinking of next < 1266613272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266613288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't /know/ something that isn't proven < 1266613292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can strongly suspect it, though < 1266613332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh maybe it's just algebraic that is unknown for them, i'm not sure < 1266613357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, pi and e algebraic is a deep result, e and pi irrational is trivial < 1266613365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266613370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, that makes me realize, you can also represent all algebraic numbers exactly. even more complicated though i presume. < 1266613375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transcendential i mean < 1266613384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just do it symbolically? :P < 1266613397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how CASs do all this funky number stuff ofc < 1266613414 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I guess you cuold just list them as polynomials + an index (which root) ? < 1266613444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266613457 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that wouldn't really help because how do you compute the new index < 1266613499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not known whether e+pi or e/pi is irrational according to internet < 1266613533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e = pi / 3 * 2 < 1266613553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1266613554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266613581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: using polynomials they are roots of, plus some interval boundaries to distinguish different roots of the same one, i think that would work < 1266613592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey that would be weird.. if it was undecidible whether e+pi is trancendental < 1266613603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would that be weird < 1266613611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be beautiful < 1266613625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what are indexes? < 1266613628 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally i can't decide if it would be weird or not < 1266613632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for roots) < 1266613636 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I meant the 3rd root, e.g. < 1266613644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: but do you agree it'd be beautiful? < 1266613644 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems like a bad way to distinguist < 1266613696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: does that mean e*pi _is_ known? < 1266613714 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/LindemannsTheorem.html < 1266613717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what logic systems need is an FFI to other logic systems < 1266613719 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a cool theorem by the way < 1266613723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266613751 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hehe we should get them to trust each other < 1266613768 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw an attempt at converting HOL proofs into Coq that was pretty heavy < 1266613826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm not sure there is any pretty way to distinguish them. different roots of primitive polynomials are algebraically indistinguishable, afaik (galois theory), so you need some order or the like < 1266613827 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also unsafePerformMathematica < 1266613832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for boring calculations.. < 1266613869 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I don't know galwah theory :( < 1266613875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what logic systems need is an FFI to other logic systems <-- kripke models! < 1266613883 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though seemingly innocuous, a proof of Schanuel's conjecture would prove hundreds of open conjectures in transcendental number theory. < 1266613894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course we need some sort of trust-metric between them all < 1266613901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can import proofs from other systems that we can't prove in our system < 1266613907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if they pass a certain Bullshit Factor < 1266613914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose intention is to weed out the bullshit. < 1266613925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well the point here iirc is that there are field automorphisms of C that map one root onto any (?) other < 1266613957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one _given_ root, there may be restrictions on pairs and such) < 1266614027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls having fun using kripke models to prove things were not intuitionistic tautologies
< 1266614137 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes to know more about that but I watched a lecture on kripke models a while ago and did not get it
< 1266614186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let me try to recall an example < 1266614210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say the well-known intuitionistic non-tautology A or (not A) < 1266614305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you make two world's, one in which A is false, one in which A is true, with the former being less than the latter < 1266614323 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oka; < 1266614340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then in the former, not A is _also_ false, since there exists a larger world in which A is true < 1266614373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and A or (not A) is then also false in the former, since or combines in each world < 1266614394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo: A or (not A) is not a tautology < 1266614429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I didn't quite get that either. < 1266614443 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tautology in ??? < 1266614456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in intuitionistic propositional logic < 1266614460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or basically it sounds like a load of bullshit worthy of that recent xkcd about proving from invalid axioms ;P < 1266614469 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :::/ < 1266614480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*worlds not world's < 1266614492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1266614495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oerjan it is not a tautology so you have proved it is now the world explodes?? < 1266614499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't undersatnd < 1266614509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1266614514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1266614515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i have proved that it is _not_ a tautology < 1266614518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah xkcd to rebut valid mathematical techniques, sounds like a funny joke to me < 1266614518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A or (not A) is ***not*** a tautology < 1266614519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's boring < 1266614525 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda important to read ALL the worlds, sorry about that! < 1266614532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read all the worlds < 1266614575 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, this is a metatheorem though? < 1266614589 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean you couldn't prove this internally, using a constructive logic could you? < 1266614590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because by some mumble mumble theorem, a proposition is an intuitionistic tautology if it is always true in every world of a kripke model satisfying the mumble mumble requirements < 1266614617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: yeah xkcd to rebut valid mathematical techniques, sounds like a funny joke to me <-- I wasn't trying to joke nor rebuting it < 1266614633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just commenting upon how insane it sounded to someone who isn't a specialist < 1266614636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well i guess not, but then you cannot do that with boolean logic either... < 1266614643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what were you doing? Either you think it's bullshit or you think it isn't. < 1266614654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see the line I said just after that < 1266614657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before replying < 1266614670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :";P" would imply you don't think it's bullshit and are attempting to make a joke; commenting upon how seemingly insane it is counts as a joke attempt, because it's meant to be taken non-seriously in a humorous way. < 1266614670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have ~10 seconds of lag, in which case I pitty you < 1266614674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pity < 1266614677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One t. < 1266614690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266614693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1%(1%n); < 1266614693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that typo < 1266614693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*n%1 < 1266614693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <- Well, it's a start, Pure, but I think you can simplify that a wee bit. < 1266614697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*^ < 1266614699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not <- < 1266614702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you do it a lot :P < 1266614714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't think I use that word very often though < 1266614718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unlikely < 1266614721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enough. < 1266614803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, when is that type of logic that proves A or (not A) to not be a tautology actually useful? < 1266614819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0+x = x; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x+0 = x; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0*x = 0; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1*x = x; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x*0 = 0; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x*1 = x; < 1266614822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1%(1%n); < 1266614824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n%1 < 1266614826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I schooled you, son. < 1266614830 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise = zero < 1266614830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now yo a clever bitch of a rewriter. < 1266614832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: when you want to find out what are the intuitionistic tautologies? < 1266614843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think AnMaster is assuming that (a or not a) is actually a tautology "IRL" < 1266614851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus his inquiry; just heuristics, though < 1266614856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not correct < 1266614859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266614873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what sort of other math stuff this is used for < 1266614879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and why do you want to do that? < 1266614890 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, metatheoretic investigation of foundational questions < 1266614890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, i believe there are other forms of kripke models for some other logics (e.g. modal ones?) < 1266614901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what MissPiggy said < 1266614920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, hm okay < 1266614937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this _did_ start out with alise's comment about logics needing FFIs for each other... < 1266614941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how do you pronounce "kripke" btw? < 1266614951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x%(y*x) == 1%y; < 1266614951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x*y==y*x < 1266614957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Pure, turns out that's true also. < 1266614967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think it's german. or wait was he american? < 1266614973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, FFI in this context being? All I can think of is foreign function interface, which makes no sense here. < 1266614995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what language is that? < 1266615000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Kripke < 1266615000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure < 1266615029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think that _was_ the intended meaning. how to call one logic from within another. < 1266615050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kripke models allow you to speak about intuitionistic truths in classical logic, say < 1266615061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, interesting language. Did you provide a few rules and it then did various simplifications on it basically? < 1266615062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (x+y==y+x) = true; < 1266615062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (x*y==y*x) = true; < 1266615063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x%(y*x) == 1%y; < 1266615063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1266615065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :schooled. < 1266615071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kripke was american) < 1266615072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah; basically, you define tree -> tree rewritings. < 1266615076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er is < 1266615077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sounds like perfect to write a CAS in. < 1266615079 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise make it do partial fractions < 1266615080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you give it a tree and it rewrites it recursively. < 1266615086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: exactly; this kind of stuff is the base of CASs < 1266615087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bastard is still alive :D < 1266615090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no ;P < 1266615092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1266615104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise please :(((( think of my homework!! < 1266615112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: fine what do you want it to aftually do < 1266615115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*actually < 1266615140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the complexity of this way of computing. < 1266615141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise seriously partial fractions are cool I would be interested in seeing it in a rewrite language because it seems slightly less trivial than just simplification < 1266615153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can't ask for the "complexity" of a paradigm, that's ridiculous < 1266615176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well true. I realised it was badly worded. But I can't think of another way to phrase it < 1266615177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see... < 1266615183 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise partial fractions is tne name for turning stuff like 1/((x+a)(x+b)) into P/(x+a) + Q/(x+b) < 1266615194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to solve for P and Q, and do it for more general cases.. < 1266615194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naive algorithm is slow (evaluating the innermost trees first, look for rewrite rules that match the tree; pick the most specific one (e.g. biggest or least free variables), replace with right hand side, repeat) < 1266615198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are better algorithms < 1266615201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, given that you rewrite it recursively it sounds like some stuff would be rather inefficient to implement in it < 1266615211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure isn't naive; it compiles to LLVM and all. < 1266615212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right < 1266615218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:32 < alise> AnMaster: You can't ask for the "complexity" of a paradigm, that's ridiculous < 1266615223 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not ridiculous :P < 1266615234 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266615241 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe paradigm isn't the right thing < 1266615269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What is the complexity of tree rewriting" doesn't make sense because it depends on the complexity of the computation < 1266615282 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but stuff like mutable vs non-mutable and complexity completeness results are quite deep theorems in programming < 1266615286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the complexity of the best known algorithm for it then? < 1266615298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: apparently now ghc will also compile to LLVM, i hear < 1266615306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Still a meaningless question < 1266615312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i would know, never having downloaded it *ducks* < 1266615315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's replacing -fvia-c. < 1266615321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1266615328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me believe that it is likely that you do not understand the difference between complexity and speed on today's CPUs. < 1266615348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if I had meant to ask about that I would have asked about that < 1266615356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant big O notation here < 1266615366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not milliseconds < 1266615373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then your question makes no sense. < 1266615376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter would vary a lot < 1266615380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what is the complexity of brainfuck? < 1266615388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck < 1266615398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the complexity of a given way to implement bf < 1266615408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set the "given way" to "best known" < 1266615409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is RE < 1266615410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266615414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That question makes no sense at all. < 1266615420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now someone implement brainfuck with tree rewriting < 1266615426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1266615428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1266615431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What is the complexity of a naive implementation of Brainfuck? < 1266615434 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do that (in a cool way) < 1266615440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think you can have algorithmic complexity of non-algorithms. ;) < 1266615442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, first define the naive implementation < 1266615449 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:R#re < 1266615452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: define the different stuff as operators < 1266615456 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kripke is an observant jew < 1266615458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh right algorithms must terminate or how was it? < 1266615460 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matisyahu is an observant jew < 1266615461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, ^ < 1266615463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can generate bf programs with symbolicness < 1266615463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay on that thing it fails < 1266615466 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like matisyahu < 1266615470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, kripke is cool < 1266615472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reason about them < 1266615476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, pick one implementation < 1266615478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: any < 1266615482 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matisyahu the singer ? < 1266615484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tell me how you would work out "its complexity" < 1266615488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: this question is /completely meaningless/ < 1266615503 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what about my answer? (RE) is that not correct? < 1266615512 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: suer < 1266615534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is that the complexity of the evaluation function, though? < 1266615541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, yes, technically < 1266615544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think it's what AnMaster means < 1266615546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise that's a tricky one... < 1266615554 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's not what he means I know that :P < 1266615556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's trying to say "how much OVERHEAD does tree rewriting imply" < 1266615559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a silly answer < 1266615568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nonsensical too, s/tree rewriting/a given implementation of tree rewriting/ < 1266615571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then rigorously define overhead < 1266615573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe i can answer < 1266615590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a co-RE language < 1266615610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably classes of algorithms in tree rewriting that have asymptotically lower efficiency than in a language with mutable reference < 1266615628 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by _result I can't remember the name of ;_;_ < 1266615640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a tree rewriting language with mutable references, of course < 1266615651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that lisp vs. pure lisp link from the other day? < 1266615663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, tree rewriting can be mutable in place? Huh? < 1266615667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I misread that < 1266615691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that seems rather messy < 1266615694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not fitting in < 1266615695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well I am probably wrong about that statement < 1266615696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1266615698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not < 1266615703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure has side-effects < 1266615703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's graph rewriting then, isn't it < 1266615706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :causes no issues at all < 1266615718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you consider references externalities usually but yeah < 1266615722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :side effects are annoying < 1266615726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: monads. < 1266615732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other ways of modelling state < 1266615751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, passing the state along all the time? < 1266615760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't solve the issue with IO though < 1266615777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just model that as a data structure with continuations. < 1266615784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can sugar it from inside the language. < 1266615787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266615807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work < 1266615885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nit < 1266615888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not might < 1266615891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does < 1266615899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about nit? < 1266615901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a solved problem < 1266616530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer modern is beautiful < 1266616574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern is so ancient < 1266616648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom < 1266616712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally "modern" means the mom in some norwegian dialects < 1266616760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Swedish, though it's probably archaic < 1266616782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a swedish loan, actually < 1266616790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it might not < 1266616944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means both modern and "the mother" in Swedish. And yeah somewhat archaic < 1266617016 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different pronunciation for the two meanings though < 1266617022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1266617027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very different < 1266617269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does English have that? < 1266617282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one spelling, different ways to pronounce, different meanings < 1266617303 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph < 1266617319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266617367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_context-free_grammar < 1266617375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266617401 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266617411 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: oklopol: does that mean e*pi _is_ known?" <<< if e*pi was known, then e/pi would also be < 1266617420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually isn't it instead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronym_%28linguistics%29 ? < 1266617424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266617465 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266617465 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266617468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, known as what? < 1266617474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not if it was known _not_ to be rational < 1266617484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "is trancedental" < 1266617492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if it were algebraic, the other one couldn't be < 1266617494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, that is the question) < 1266617532 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ceci n'est pas une pipe < 1266617552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (ir)rational, actually < 1266617565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, both < 1266617586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right you are, that's more specific < 1266617590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, any transcendental (sp?) number would be irrational right? < 1266617607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but the point it isn't known to be either < 1266617616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is it < 1266617655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I can tell you something: it isn't an integer ;P < 1266617665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1266617671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah lame < 1266617692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally e^pi is algebraic < 1266617707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1266617708 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebraic! < 1266617724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't that used to prove that pi is transcendental or something? < 1266617724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is misremembering
< 1266617727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but algebraic? < 1266617734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't sound quite correct < 1266617741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't i involved too? < 1266617840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, something that confused me is the computable/non-computable number thingy < 1266617844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that actually mean < 1266617849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are there any examples < 1266617909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone was trying too hard to be pretentious when writing this < 1266617909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Attic Greek drama, a character in the play, as very often a deity, stood forward or appeared from a machine before the action of the play began, and made from the empty stage such statements necessary for the audience to hear so that they might appreciate the ensuing drama. It was the early Greek custom to dilate in great detail on everything that had led up to the play, the latter being itself, as a rule merely the catastrophe which had inevitably to en < 1266617910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sue on the facts related in the prologue. The importance, therefore, of the prologue in Greek drama was very great; it sometimes almost took the place of a romance, to which, or to an episode in which, the play itself succeeded. < 1266617939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: chaitlin's constant is a real < 1266617941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not computable < 1266617949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, a given instance of it) < 1266617950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chaitin's < 1266617975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "the latter being itself" quite throw me off first time I read that sentence... < 1266617976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, RR contains unknowable elements. < 1266617986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I still haven't managed to read that paragraph! < 1266617995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was fine up until that point < 1266618002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit pretentious yes < 1266618004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but readable < 1266618009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number < 1266618010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that it just makes no sense < 1266618011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a real number x is computable if there is a computable function f:N -> Q such that |f(n) - x| < 1/n < 1266618029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so i think. there are probably many equivalent definitions < 1266618030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ω is indeed one of the examples given < 1266618046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: now someone implement brainfuck with tree rewriting" <<< i think i did that too with one of my tree rewriters, it's not like it's hard, just carry around a tape < 1266618069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, some that is familiar from what I read elsewhere, it helps < 1266618090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: chaitlin's constant is a real <-- oh right < 1266618094 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol what about doing it without carrying tape? < 1266618195 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you push say > 3+ > 4+ > 6+ > through [1- > 7+ <] to get a program with one less loop? < 1266618215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what modern is both modern and ancient in swedish < 1266618225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*archai < 1266618225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1266618236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what? < 1266618259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I didn't understand that < 1266618260 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: oklopol: not if it was known _not_ to be rational" <<< that's why err < 1266618317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: esotope does thinsg like that < 1266618371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise cool! < 1266618380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*things < 1266618388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ < 1266618396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it evaluate a brainfuck program without making a tape? < 1266618400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also compiles hello-world-with-loops to a puts call :) < 1266618410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1266618411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/wiki/Optimization < 1266618414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not just hardcoding < 1266618418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really can do that kind of reasoning < 1266618509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i don't get your "push say" thing < 1266618512 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha that compiler is such a hardcore optimizer that you have to use a specially fast tool to run it < 1266618524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I just mean like partial evaluation or something, but all the way < 1266618565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, you don't want to evaluate all non-input-dependent code < 1266618570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it might not terminate < 1266618581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you _want_ to do is evaluate all code that you can automatically prove to terminate < 1266618598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even all code that you can automatically prove to terminate and also determine that its "complexity" is below a certain bound < 1266618608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that compilation doesn't take fifty-billion years just because execution does < 1266618611 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can just evaluate the program, then turn the tape into a >+ program that generates it -- but I was hoping it could be done without using a tape as intermediate < 1266618630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it also compiles hello-world-with-loops to a puts call :) <-- that is quite trivial < 1266618638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I can describe the algorithm to do that < 1266618649 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster did you read the documentation ??????????? < 1266618654 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster that is not trivial < 1266618659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I coded something very similar myself < 1266618662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I know how to do it < 1266618671 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster cool don't you have the code? < 1266618686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, mine is rather buggy, but it is coded in erlang < 1266618691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he had to ask the author of esotope how the extended euclidian algorithm worked :) < 1266618700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :highly parallel bugs < 1266618705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was basically a copy with a more ad-hoc structure, AnMaster says it did better on some programs but those were pathological < 1266618711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266618713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1266618721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes for that algorithm, I was not as smart back then < 1266618721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am I not surprised you said that :) < 1266618733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, figure out constants based on that the tape is at the program start all zero, then ++ means that "set 2" you can treat [-] and [+] as set 0 and do the same < 1266618738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait you are now? why didn't somebody inform me :( < 1266618769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you convert >> and << to offsets and only actually move the pointer just before an unbalanced loop (where you can't figure out the offset easily) < 1266618778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they had a singularity in sweden, but they're keeping it under wraps < 1266618783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, now those constants can also be propagated to output < 1266618787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get constant output < 1266618792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now merge those outputs < 1266618797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, see? trivial < 1266618809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you need to unroll constant iteration loops of course < 1266618820 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah neat < 1266618821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each loop can be represented as a polynomial < 1266618825 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I will just implement this then < 1266618828 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266618837 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what how do you represent them as polynomials? < 1266618838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well, each non-IO balanced loop that is < 1266618870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the compiler optimize random access? < 1266618873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only thing that matters < 1266618886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, based on the loop counter, if you have [>++<-] you can figure out that the current position will be zero after but the next will be twice the current value < 1266618890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the current cell < 1266618891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266618897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the next cell was zero before < 1266618903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you add it instead of set it < 1266618907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[><++>] < 1266618918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean sure it's cool to compile constants into constants, but you could just do that by running the program < 1266618920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, trivial, early merging would take care of >< < 1266618924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as pointed out infinite times < 1266618926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get an unbalanced loop < 1266618932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not without risking halting < 1266618934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: BUT WOULD IT TAKE CARE OF THE FISH < 1266618940 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmm < 1266618941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, if you solve that, extremely long execution times < 1266618942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stfu < 1266618944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, -_- < 1266618948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_context-free_grammar < 1266618949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm *risking non-halting < 1266618949 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run for a microsecond < 1266618950 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized this is exactly the same as having a type... < 1266618955 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tape* < 1266618959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: nondeterministic, and less effective than this < 1266618963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, check out all of the pages i recently made. grammars :D < 1266618971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because as you evaluate the program you build up a data like >+++>+++++>+>+>+>>+++>>+++ < 1266618975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who gives a shit, point is it's not an important optimization < 1266618977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just a data structure that represents a tape! < 1266618977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, of course if you can figure out the value before at that tape position then it is trivial < 1266619006 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, nice I just saved a big list of pages you made to read < 1266619007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you basically sort it. I used gnome sorting. which means swap if possible then take one step back, step forward if you can't swap < 1266619030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I deliberately used a joke sort algorithm" < 1266619032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, it is a stable sort (important) and it is easy to add quite complex restrictions to how you are allowed to swap < 1266619058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnome is a joke? < 1266619067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is quite fast in practise for this, plus easy to implement with the various restrictions. And it isn't a joke < 1266619073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not one of the very fastest ones < 1266619074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, actually < 1266619105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, source for that < 1266619119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I have never heard of that before < 1266619127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.vu.nl/~dick/gnomesort.html < 1266619129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly tongue-in-cheek < 1266619157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I only learned the name after I implemented it < 1266619169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tongue in your mom's cheek < 1266619211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw wikipedia says: < 1266619213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is conceptually simple, requiring no nested loops. The running time is O(n²), but tends towards O(n) if the list is initially almost sorted.[1] In practice the algorithm can run as fast as Insertion sort." < 1266619248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for most bf programs you can't reorder the whole thing due to unbalanced loops < 1266619264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor can you move stuff freely across a balanced loop < 1266619280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are fast stable sorts < 1266619281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you figure out if they depend on each other < 1266619302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, true, but can you do such complex conditions easily? Also it gave adequate performance for this case < 1266619340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, anyway I gave up on the project when I got stuck on graph based optimisation < 1266619350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know enough about that sort of thing to make it actually work < 1266619356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :know somewhat more nowdays < 1266619359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want project fortress, agda and pure to have sex < 1266619364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and produce a beautiful, beautiful language baby < 1266619370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not really interested in taking it up again < 1266619384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably you could just have intelligence in your swap and < functions. < 1266619406 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should do it!! < 1266619410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it all depends on what is between them < 1266619427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "project fortress"? never heard about that one before < 1266619439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hehe yeah good plan < 1266619441 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: dog. spare dog legs. nails. < 1266619445 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hammer. < 1266619450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/ < 1266619452 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should bring then on a double date? < 1266619456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guy steele's baby < 1266619459 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good way to break the ice < 1266619465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, btw mine dropped those calls to set cells in the final version. One pass was to look from the end of the program and delete dead stores < 1266619474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit parallelism, yar. two-dimensional mathematical syntax with beautiful latex rendering, yar < 1266619479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if tape was never used it's variable was never declared < 1266619481 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep -> < 1266619481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool typing stuff, yar < 1266619488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally sweet, yar < 1266619495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about go? < 1266619501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about go? < 1266619502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't you love it too < 1266619507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it be in that mix too < 1266619513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want a systems programming language < 1266619520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i myself have transcended such petty desirse < 1266619521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh and smalltalk and haskell < 1266619522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*desires < 1266619529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda includes the desire for haskell by being superior to it < 1266619536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hastalk < 1266619539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though not suitable for practical programming, that is irrelevant when language-mating) < 1266619540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine it < 1266619547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smalltalk is a nice OOP language, but you don't need it if you have a nice functional paradigm < 1266619554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's superior < 1266619561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so mix them up and produce a bastard language < 1266619563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding columns is more important than adding rows in the expression problem, so FP wins < 1266619572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I'd rather mix fortress, agda and pure :P < 1266619579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not haskell as well? < 1266619607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because agda subsumes the haskell desire, by being superior to it < 1266619619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not practical for real-world, boring programming, this is irrelevant when language-fucking. < 1266619620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266619710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266619907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortress' syntax is so sexy though. < 1266619913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/attachment/wiki/MathSyntaxInFortress/fortify-example.png < 1266619927 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol I did my work now ^..^ < 1266619941 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I have been spending fucking ages trying to get a repl with TeX display for my CAS :( < 1266619952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: try texmacs? < 1266619963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's designed for things like that < 1266620011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why the syntax for fractions is what it is
< 1266620013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to a division operator < 1266620023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because you can view p/q as a constructor for rationals < 1266620085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the really cool stuff happens when you type ascii code and get beautiful output on the go, though < 1266620318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does fortress use monads? < 1266620329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1266620333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it could if you made it < 1266620334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the language it does seem quite cool < 1266620341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somewhat easier to learn than haskell < 1266620355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mix of imperative and functional in part even < 1266620356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to learn relative to what < 1266620361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not functional it's just mathematical < 1266620370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that explains part of it < 1266620382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/833520.txt?key=ed3ghdi8fhelh3aot8jsw ;; my dream-land perfect editor for a rich-notation language < 1266620390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format is input\ndisplay as ascii < 1266620396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| is cursor < 1266620412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, too hard to follow < 1266620417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only because it's ascii < 1266620424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, exactly < 1266620425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRL it'd be totally smooth < 1266620425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make some concept videos < 1266620427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1266620431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i prolly will < 1266620440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/wiki/ViscoElastic more fortress syntax porn < 1266620453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266620534 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266620617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/wiki/FortressCommentSyntax Fortress has the most advanced commenting system of any language, ever. You can embed rendered Fortress code, tables... and images. < 1266620634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it's about bloody time we had expressive comments. < 1266620651 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Fortress < 1266620662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm never going to use FORTRAN again! < 1266620669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"again" < 1266620673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266620679 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 16 < 1266620759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is it for rendering to html or similar? < 1266620766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I usually read comments in the source < 1266620786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortress programs are considered as publications, pretty much. Ideally, you editor would show your code in the rendered form directly. < 1266620799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the wiki-ish markup is perfectly readable in source code. Put it in a paper or publish it on the internet and it'll shine. < 1266620856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the {{{ }}} is somewhat annoying < 1266620858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many < 1266620876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's a rare construction. < 1266620923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the page on it's markup though < 1266621110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1266621192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey i'm making a js demonstration of it too < 1266621193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266621922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: are you interested, at least? :P < 1266621926 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what? < 1266621936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a js demonstration of how I think editing should be done < 1266621953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow wait what do you mean < 1266621961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that not something that will take a very long time?? < 1266621974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean it just shows you the entering of one single expression :P < 1266621992 0 :SimonRC_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266622060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ping < 1266622330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ok, go to http://pastie.org/833571.txt?key=seg549im36wsbitxw8dug, copy the whole contents, and paste it into your address bar and go there < 1266622357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll play a 13.5 second demonstration of first, inputting the expression a[2^n] < 1266622362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then navigating back through it < 1266622370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keyboard input on top, editor display on bottom < 1266622392 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise ahh nice! < 1266622400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266622448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is, you know how in texmacs you're using the cursor keys all the time just to step in and out of things? < 1266622463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks! < 1266622471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed! < 1266622472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i try and display all the relevant information on-screen at all times < 1266622483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you input a symbol you input a matching symbol to complete it < 1266622500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, if it weren't for the ) to terminate the ^, and you could get around that by e.g. making it terminate when x^y in ascii source would, < 1266622508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd write the ascii source and see the fancy source, directly < 1266622580 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266622624 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266622631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: indeed the ascii representation need not even be stored < 1266622645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of my OS, you could live a long and productive life without ever causing any code to be represented as ascii text in memory in any way < 1266622680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh like having it a tree < 1266622680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266622733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :process keyboard input to direct the editor, store internally as ast < 1266622736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266622741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a superset of the regular ast < 1266622745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it allows incomplete expressions < 1266622755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, allows a marker in an expression that denotes that it is not complete < 1266622765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah, the data: URI. < 1266622782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: couldn't find an htmlpaste.com :) < 1266622789 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266622858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i think i'm going to diverge from regular mathematical notation a lot anyway < 1266622866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :division symbol instead of fraction notation < 1266622883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt() instead of the sqrt symbol < 1266622894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically reducing the number of unique notations, they're mostly pointless < 1266622896 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hehe well you can fix all the HORRID crap they have in mathematical notation < 1266622902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely :P < 1266622907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|x|? barf < 1266622915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with abs(x), no I mean seriously, what is wrong with abs(x) < 1266622940 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|| is a norm < 1266622954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shaddup < 1266622958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there're different norms but their notations are similar so you can tell they're all norms < 1266622966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I am being a bit silly, because I'm retaining 2^n as superscript < 1266622976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I should use \uparrow, as does knuth < 1266623076 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal mathematical notation???? BARF < 1266623083 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually is || ambiguous like so much else < 1266623092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's why i'm totally fixin' it < 1266623102 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266623108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I like superscripts and subscripts < 1266623121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice to be able to adorn symbols with notes < 1266623123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but why? why are + and * symbols but the next operator a superscript? < 1266623134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well + and * are associative < 1266623135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mind super- and subscripts, but why use them for exponentiation? < 1266623146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, true < 1266623147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so being infix operators expresses that, notationally < 1266623148 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266623149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still an operator < 1266623163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have plenty of infix ops that aren't associative in programming... like -> < 1266623165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the reason for exponents is because like < 1266623176 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^n * a^m = a^(n + m) < 1266623181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's fix math because it's broken < 1266623184 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a kind of homomorphism between * and + < 1266623189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :homoerotic morphism < 1266623196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think the superscript is a nice way to do it < 1266623202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right < 1266623212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that you can't really have complex expressions on the RHS of ^, though < 1266623213 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know... someone who thinks harder about syntax coulb probably give a really good explanation < 1266623216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can with + and * etc < 1266623221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that kind of sucks in a way < 1266623330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^(1/2 + 7/n - 44) for instance < 1266623334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would just look ugly < 1266623346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well it does come up in real situations so deal with it < 1266623359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why deal with it when i can make the notation better? < 1266623362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266623409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ^ is better for short things, though < 1266623416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^n is less cluttered than 2uparrow n < 1266623439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, late pong < 1266623453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: just wanted to host something nm now :P < 1266623555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language will be so sweet < 1266623623 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266623625 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266623638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's exp() for when the expression is complicated < 1266623685 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266623710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i do not believe in exp() < 1266623757 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense? < 1266623776 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't believe exponentiation is well-defined, if you're using that syntax? < 1266623787 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if so, then i'm totally with ya < 1266623802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe in that syntax! < 1266623805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266623809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's just stupid < 1266623814 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm asleep now < 1266623815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->