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02:01:53 <Gregor> Just got the backorder email for the Barbie computer engineer (it's not really on backorder, it's preorder, but whatever). The product name there: "BRB I CAN BE DOLL computer eng"
02:02:24 <alise> Gregor: who won curling
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02:02:37 <alise> i'ma buy that doll
02:02:51 <alise> brb, I can be doll
02:03:01 <Sgeo> How much do you want to bet that I won't get my HW done?
02:03:14 <alise> I'm not sure you can even whale a horse.
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02:44:10 <Sgeo> I have an exam tomorrow, and homework due tomorrow
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03:13:56 <alise> Sgeo: what time is it there?
03:14:07 <Sgeo> Right now, 10:13.
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03:17:25 <alise> 3:16 am here. I don't know when I have to be up, because the place is run by incompetent fools that do not tell you when they will arrive.
03:17:39 <alise> Until the morning, that is; add a few hours to whatever they tell you, and that's when they'll arrive.
03:17:51 <alise> Earliest I have to be up is probably 9:30, but I don't care.
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04:22:04 <alise> Well, so ends another week.
04:22:13 <alise> Sgeo, I believe, is the only one active, so... anything to say?
04:22:34 <Sgeo> I hope your situation improves soon.
04:22:44 <alise> Funny. So do I. :P
04:23:01 <alise> Anyway, see you guys on Friday.
04:23:12 <alise> I guess one could say that this is the end of Dispatch 3, though I've never really thought of them as having endings per se.
04:23:23 <alise> Which is a rather appropriately me-like thought to end my stay with. Bye!
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10:10:02 <augur> GIGs minus the initial terminal in the push rule = turing complete
10:10:22 <augur> someone should implement this
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14:55:19 <scarf_> can anyone here remember why Java has 13 months in a year?
14:55:22 <scarf_> I used to know, but forgot
14:55:31 <scarf_> (it may be something about lunar calendar compatibility, or something)
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15:10:27 <AnMaster> or wait, how many months was that
15:11:47 <AnMaster> ah yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_%28world%29#Calendar
15:11:54 <AnMaster> scarf_, clearly for compat with that :)
15:13:02 <AnMaster> (when I googled I thought I would get an lspace link, but first hit was wikipedia, heh)
15:13:27 <AnMaster> http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Discworld_calendar seems somewhat more comprehensive though
15:26:19 <fizzie> Oh yes, the Undecimber.
15:26:26 <fizzie> It's sort of explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecimber
15:26:36 <fizzie> Lunar calendar compatibility indeed.
15:27:12 <fizzie> You won't get the 13th month out of a Java Calendar object that's using the standard Gregorian calendar.
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15:29:54 <fizzie> I suppose it also returns 12 if you ask for getMaximum(Calendar.MONTH).
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17:37:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TURT headings are counter clockwise right?
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18:36:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes. "The first month of the year in the Gregorian and Julian calendars is JANUARY which is 0; the last depends on the number of months in a year."
18:37:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, why are they SHOUTING the name of the MONTH?
18:37:41 <fizzie> Because in Java, CONSTANTS tend to be SHOUTED.
18:37:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, but that seems so C PREPROCESSOR
18:38:22 <fizzie> They're not nice enums, though; they're just integer constants. (Still, I think real enums get NOISY names too.)
18:38:46 <fizzie> Yes, but they were added in Java 1.5/5.0 or so.
18:38:58 <scarf> they're basically static arrays of generic objects
18:39:01 <scarf> and you just compare pointers
18:39:19 <AnMaster> why not basically map to integers with type checking
18:39:20 <fizzie> They're a lot more complicated than C enums, though, since you can defined methods and everything for "enum classes".
18:40:06 <scarf> public enum InputFormat { BZIP2, GZIP, TTYREC, SCRIPT };
18:40:14 <scarf> ^-- an actual line of code from a Java program I'm writing
18:40:19 <fizzie> Okay, so they can be simple too.
18:40:40 <fizzie> But you can define constructors, and then list arguments there in the list of enum values.
18:40:45 <scarf> well, due to namespacing, you have to call the actual formats TtyrecAnalyzer.InputFormat.BZIP2 or whatever
18:41:55 <AnMaster> even though erlang's record syntax (somewhat like struct) is noisy (one of the few things that irritate me with erlang), this is still a lot less code than would have been required in for example C:
18:42:00 <AnMaster> add_circle(#turtle{pen=false}, Drawing = #drawing{}) ->
18:42:00 <AnMaster> add_circle(#turtle{pos=Pos,colour=Colour, pen=true}, Drawing = #drawing{nodes=N}) ->
18:42:00 <AnMaster> Drawing#drawing{nodes=[Circle|N]}.
18:42:17 <AnMaster> and that last one could be compressed to one line without causing much readability issues
18:42:22 <fizzie> For example, I have (stripping comments): public enum Side { BLUE, RED, NONE; public Side opposite() { if (this == BLUE) return RED; else if (this == RED) return BLUE; else return NONE; } }
18:42:36 <fizzie> That lets you say BLUE.opposite() or some-such.
18:43:00 <fizzie> (Or, in general, when you have a Side foo, foo.opposite(); I doubt BLUE.opposite() gets used much, since it's the same as RED.)
18:43:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, is NONE supposed to happen?
18:43:23 <fizzie> It's used for the winner in a draw, and so on.
18:43:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, so blue and red indicates winner/looser?
18:43:51 <fizzie> No, they're just the names of the sides.
18:44:05 <fizzie> There's a blue player and a red player, and a getWinner() method that returns RED, BLUE or NONE (if draw).
18:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, still I like the way you SHOUT the sides
18:44:58 <fizzie> It's also used by getOwner() for board squares part of the no man's land in the middle of the board (the game board is divided to three parts; home area of the blue player, home area of the red player, and the part in the middle owned by nobody.)
18:45:53 <fizzie> lament: I will split you in three parts, then.
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18:47:50 <AnMaster> (or whoever it is that do that sort of stuff)
18:50:16 <oerjan> 10:41:55 <AnMaster> even though erlang's record syntax (somewhat like struct) is noisy (one of the few things that irritate me with erlang), this is still a lot less code than would have been required in for example C:
18:50:20 <oerjan> 10:42:00 <AnMaster> add_circle(#turtle{pen=false}, Drawing = #drawing{}) ->
18:50:45 <oerjan> how do you make a record syntax _less_ noisy than that? it's almost the same format as haskell's...
18:51:02 <oerjan> i suppose you could lose the #
18:51:33 <fizzie> With the constructors, you can do something like: public enum Foo { BAR(42, "pink"), BAZ(6667, "octarine"); public Foo(int price, String color) { this.price = price; this.color = color; } public int price; public String color; }; and then use BAR.price and BAZ.color around.
18:51:53 <fizzie> (My only example for that sort of stuff is from the messy messy GUI parts of that game, and it's too messy to present here.)
18:55:28 <AnMaster> <oerjan> how do you make a record syntax _less_ noisy than that? it's almost the same format as haskell's... <-- it is?
18:55:39 <AnMaster> I thought haskell would have used something lean
18:55:46 <AnMaster> inferring what sort of record it was
18:56:01 <AnMaster> since for erlang it is basically a tagged tuple
18:56:10 <oerjan> Turtle{pen=False} would be perfectly fine haskell
18:56:28 <oerjan> oh haskell cannot do that because one data type can have several constructors
18:57:04 <oerjan> even with shared fields, as long as they are the same type
18:57:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, well erlang record syntax checks that the first thing in the tuple is the correct atom (it should be the record type).
18:57:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway, you just did that there
18:57:45 <AnMaster> you skipped what sort of record it was, didn't you?
18:57:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, or do you make types upper case?
18:58:00 <oerjan> um Turtle is the data constructor
18:58:10 <oerjan> and can be for only one data type
18:58:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> add_circle(#turtle{pen=false}, Drawing = #drawing{}) ->
18:58:52 <AnMaster> that bit is matching against the parameter
18:59:03 <scarf> wow, the longest registered MIME type is apparently "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"
18:59:23 <scarf> yep, OOXML to be precise
18:59:26 <oerjan> ok, i think that would still be Turtle{pen=False} in haskell
18:59:34 <scarf> for a glossary inside a OOXML word document
18:59:46 <AnMaster> scarf, do they have a length limit?
18:59:55 <oerjan> and indeed i think haskell lacks a way to not specify the data constructor there
18:59:58 <scarf> application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text is the ODF equivalent
19:00:05 <scarf> based on that monstrosity
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19:04:54 <AnMaster> the inferred type spec for that function is:
19:04:56 <AnMaster> -spec add_circle(#turtle{},#drawing{nodes::[{'circle',{_,_,_},{_,_}} | {'line',{_,_,_},[any()]}]}) -> #drawing{nodes::[{'circle',{_,_,_},{_,_}} | {'line',{_,_,_},[any()]}]}.
19:05:16 <AnMaster> you can declare aliases thankfully
19:05:27 <AnMaster> so that will end up relatively short when I write in what I want
19:06:46 <AnMaster> -spec add_circle(turtle(),drawing()) -> drawing().
19:06:59 <AnMaster> anyway most of that type info is in the record definition already
19:07:37 <AnMaster> <scarf> application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text is the ODF equivalent <-- where does it say it's a glossary though?
19:08:25 <scarf> AnMaster: it doesn't have a separate MIME type for glossaries
19:08:33 <scarf> that would be like, say, C having a separate MIME type for functions
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19:10:38 <fizzie> scarf, AnMaster: RFC4288 ("Media Type Specifications and Registration Procedures"): 4.2. ("Naming Requirements"): "Type and subtype names MUST conform to the following ABNF: type-name = reg-name; subtype-name = reg-name; reg-name = 1*127reg-name-chars; ..."
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19:10:46 <fizzie> So it has a length limit of 127 chars.
19:11:04 <fizzie> That's not strictly speaking part of the MIME spec, just the RFC that specifies what IANA wants to register, though.
19:11:27 <scarf> !c char[] x = "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"; printf("%d",(int)sizeof c);
19:11:48 <scarf> !c char[] x = "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"; printf("%d",(int)sizeof x);
19:11:51 <scarf> how did I do that?
19:11:58 <scarf> !c char x[] = "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"; printf("%d",(int)sizeof x);
19:12:03 <scarf> I've been teaching Java all day
19:12:22 <fizzie> And the "application" and "vnd...+xml" are the "type" and "subtype" parts, so they both can be 127 characters.
19:13:10 <scarf> does anything have anything but "text" or "application" as the type?
19:13:27 <scarf> ah, forgot about those
19:13:49 <AnMaster> why not do the obvious thing instead:
19:14:37 <fizzie> IANA has defined seven top-level types: text, image, audio, video, application, multipart, message.
19:15:04 <AnMaster> !befunge98 "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"ad+y1-.a,@
19:15:38 <AnMaster> !befunge98 "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"ad+y.a,@
19:15:51 <AnMaster> scarf, still your char count includes an ending \0 I think
19:15:52 <pikhq> !c printf("%d", (int)sizeof("application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"));
19:16:26 <oerjan> !haskell length "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"
19:16:27 <AnMaster> what was the prefix of HackEgo?
19:16:27 <pikhq> Yeah, the ending \0 is part of the length.
19:16:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:16:58 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -l
19:17:03 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -w
19:17:04 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
19:17:05 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -n
19:17:18 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -c
19:18:00 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -c
19:18:06 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -n
19:18:10 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -l
19:18:17 <AnMaster> `run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -w
19:18:37 <AnMaster> so that is why I forgot the other ones
19:18:43 <fizzie> !befunge98 "NRTS"4(n"application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"N.a,@
19:18:56 <AnMaster> the befunge solution I had was shortest so far
19:19:35 <AnMaster> no need for function pointers, no need to actually count to a zero on stack
19:20:05 <AnMaster> !befunge98 "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"ad+y.@
19:20:25 <AnMaster> which means, as little program code apart from the string as possible
19:21:46 <fizzie> ^bf +[>+<,]>-.!application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml
19:21:56 <fizzie> If you don't mind the encoding of the value as an ASCII char.
19:22:25 <scarf> that program would either be trivial, or fail utterly, in INTERCAL
19:22:34 <scarf> because all known methods of representing strings require knowing their length in advance
19:22:53 <scarf> or else just padding out a really large buffer
19:22:58 <scarf> sort of, like C without string literals
19:23:06 <AnMaster> scarf, doesn't that make intercal sub-bf-complete?
19:23:46 <AnMaster> scarf, then it must be possible in some way
19:23:54 <scarf> because you can emulate a Minsky machine and use that to store the strings
19:23:57 <AnMaster> scarf, anyway why not use some sort of tree structure?
19:24:04 <scarf> except, ouch, it's easier just to calculate the length in advance
19:24:24 <AnMaster> which one is the minsky machine now again?
19:24:36 <scarf> bignum BF with a fixed-length tape
19:25:14 <AnMaster> scarf, anyway why not use a tree structure of some sort to store them in intercal?
19:25:28 <AnMaster> of course implementing such a tree structure would be horrible
19:25:35 <scarf> AnMaster: have you ever /tried/ to do a tree structure in INTERCAL?
19:25:44 <scarf> the only plausible method I can think of is encoding it into an array
19:25:55 <AnMaster> scarf, no. But my point is that once it is done it could be made into a library
19:26:08 <fizzie> Incidentally, the IANA mime type application form -- http://www.iana.org/cgi-bin/mediatypes.pl -- has the subtype field defined as <input type="text" name="shortname" value="" size="40" maxlength="60"> so you couldn't have registered that thing with it. (Technically you get up to 64, because the "vnd." part is selected from a drop-down thing.)
19:26:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, edit the html code using something like firebug?
19:26:53 <AnMaster> and see if the server handles the longer length
19:27:24 <fizzie> Yes, it would be hilarious if Microsoft had done that.
19:27:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that mime type registered though?
19:28:20 <fizzie> Didn't scarf say it was?
19:28:31 <scarf> I saw on a forum that it was
19:28:35 <cpressey> scarf: Are arrays also fixed size in INTERCAL, or can they expand?
19:28:49 <scarf> cpressey: it's like C; they're fixed-size upon creation, but you can create them dynamically as the program runs
19:28:56 <fizzie> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ is the definitive list.
19:29:02 <scarf> so if you want a bigger array, you create a bigger array then copy your data into it
19:29:33 <scarf> there's a cap at 2^32 max size for any dimension, though; INTERCAL is TC, but not because of the arrays (you have to mess about with scoping to get TCness)
19:30:39 <fizzie> scarf: There are two other types that are equally long, though: "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.pivotCacheDefinition+xml" and "vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.volatileDependencies+xml".
19:30:56 <scarf> ooh, you actually checked?
19:31:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, both are ooxml crap yeah
19:31:10 <fizzie> I only checked the "application/" category, though.
19:31:43 <scarf> I'm kind-of shocked that you can just fill in a form to apply for a MIME type
19:32:21 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ cat tmp.txt | awk '{print $1;}' | perl -ne 'print length($_), " $_";' | sort -nr | head
19:32:21 <fizzie> 73 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml
19:32:21 <fizzie> 73 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.volatileDependencies+xml
19:32:21 <fizzie> 73 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.pivotCacheDefinition+xml
19:32:21 <fizzie> 71 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.presentationml.presentation.main+xml
19:32:22 <fizzie> 70 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.pivotCacheRecords+xml
19:33:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, and can't you do that awk thing in perl anyway?
19:33:22 <cpressey> Hey, awk and perl in the same pipeline scores positive points in my book.
19:33:34 <AnMaster> cpressey, it's like UUOC to me
19:33:45 <AnMaster> awk and sed would have been fine
19:33:55 <fizzie> You can probably do the whole thing in awk, or in perl; it's just that I build my pipelines in stages.
19:34:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah but use the right tool for the job
19:34:28 <cpressey> A subshell to compile and run a C program on the fly for one of the pipe stages would be the icing on the cake.
19:34:30 <AnMaster> for just getting first field with no other processing: cut
19:35:27 <fizzie> I would argue that for a one-off pipeline, the "right tool" is the one you can think of fastest. Anyway, cut fails because it generates loads of empty fields for consecutive delimiters, and those lines had a bit differing number of preceding whitespace in them.
19:36:14 <AnMaster> how did you download it as plain text?
19:36:42 <fizzie> With a copy-paste from a browser.
19:36:55 <fizzie> Anyhow, yes, in this case awk '{print length($1)" "$1;}' would have made more sense.
19:37:14 <fizzie> I blame the way I think.
19:37:49 <Ilari> fizzie: Are those the longest MIME type names in there?
19:38:06 <AnMaster> longer if you include the application/
19:38:33 <fizzie> Yes, but the length limits are defined separately for the "application" part and that subtype part.
19:38:49 <fizzie> I would guess those are the longest in general, but I'll check the other top-level types too.
19:38:52 <Ilari> But usually one won't see any "exotic" types.
19:39:10 <fizzie> Longest one in audio/ is "audio/vnd.sealedmedia.softseal.mpeg".
19:39:49 <fizzie> "image/vnd.sealedmedia.softseal.jpg" -- heh, sealedmedia is quite a leader in these.
19:40:09 <fizzie> "message/global-disposition-notification"
19:40:25 <fizzie> "model/vnd.parasolid.transmit.binary"
19:40:46 <fizzie> "multipart/voice-message"
19:41:06 <fizzie> "text/vnd.net2phone.commcenter.command"
19:41:28 <AnMaster> it smells drm a long way away that name
19:41:30 <fizzie> "video/vnd.nokia.interleaved-multimedia"
19:41:36 <fizzie> Yay, Nokia slipped one in too
19:42:08 <fizzie> The image/ one was actually a shared win with "vnd.sealedmedia.softseal.gif".
19:42:32 <scarf> wait, are they repackaging file extensions that already exist as MIME types?
19:43:00 <fizzie> It has their DRM wrapper around it, I guess.
19:43:14 <AnMaster> scarf, googling indicates it is drm crap
19:43:17 <fizzie> "Oracle Information Rights Management (IRM, formerly SealedMedia) is a new form of information security technology that secures and tracks sensitive digital information everywhere it is stored and used."
19:43:31 <fizzie> That WP clip starts like a press release/ad copy.
19:43:41 <scarf> why did Oracle buy them?
19:43:44 <fizzie> "Conventional information management products only manage documents, emails and web pages while they remain stored within server-side repositories. Oracle Information Rights Management uses encryption to extend the management of information beyond the repository - to every copy of an organization's most sensitive information, everywhere it is stored and used - on end user desktops, laptops and mobile wireless devices, in other repositories, inside and outside t
19:43:48 <fizzie> And continues that way too.
19:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there any advertisment template on it?
19:44:07 <pikhq> Because Oracle believes that cp does not exist.
19:44:08 <scarf> so what's to stop you juts taking a screenshot of these DRMed PNG files?
19:44:12 <AnMaster> if not I suggest you put one there
19:44:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, there doesn't seem to be.
19:44:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just listen to this: "Oracle Information Rights Management introduces some new elements into information workflows, such as encrypting ("sealing") and classifying documents, emails and web pages, and the requirement to install Oracle IRM Desktop agent software on every end user device on which sealed information is created or used. But the disruptions to existing workflows are sufficiently small, and the benefits so considerable, that information righ
19:44:29 <fizzie> ts management is now routinely being adopted by enterprises and government agencies worldwide to secure their most confidential information."
19:45:06 <fizzie> It's copy-paste directly from http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/content-management/irm/index.html
19:45:15 <scarf> fizzie: tag it copyvio
19:45:16 <AnMaster> advertisment and a few more at least
19:45:28 <scarf> easy way to get rid of a c&ped press release
19:45:36 <scarf> AnMaster: you could use both, but copyvio's a /much/ more urgent tag
19:46:13 <pikhq> Yeah, definitely copyvio.
19:47:24 <scarf> look at the history: if the page wasn't edited afterwards, {{db-copyvio|url=http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/content-management/irm/index.html}} should be the only tag you need if it's as blatant as that
19:48:40 <fizzie> Well, it has two edits; one by DrilBot fixing two [[foo|foo]] links to just [[foo]], one "Removed category Information Rights Management (using HotCat)".
19:49:27 <scarf> for preventing speedy copyvio, that is
19:50:24 <fizzie> I'll see if I can manage to successfully add that. Wikipedia makes me nervous, though.
19:50:44 <scarf> you might get someone yelling at you for not warning the user in question
19:50:49 <scarf> AnMaster: an interface to the category system
19:51:03 <scarf> that's basically a bit faster than typing out by hand
19:51:12 <scarf> AnMaster: mentally read "db" as "delete because"
19:51:21 <scarf> with the implication that it should be deleted Right Now, thank you very much
19:51:32 <AnMaster> scarf, I tried "database" and "decibel"
19:51:47 <fizzie> scarf: The user in question seems to have disappeared; at least the user link is red, and his/her talk-page just has someone complaining about adding random links to the Information Management topics.
19:51:51 <scarf> it adds the page to one of the top-priority admin action categories
19:52:08 <scarf> fizzie: fine, then you can warn them without worrying about getting a reply
19:52:18 -!- MizardX- has joined.
19:52:30 <scarf> (something may be wrong with my reasoning here...)
19:54:32 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:54:47 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
19:56:50 <AnMaster> can someone tell me if this logic is correct
19:56:57 <AnMaster> normalise_angle(Heading) when Heading < 0 ->
19:57:16 <AnMaster> heading is in degrees and is an integer
19:57:24 <scarf> AnMaster: depends on what rem does
19:57:31 <scarf> which is really hard to tell, as it differs from lang to lang
19:57:39 <AnMaster> scarf, reminder. Erlang's name for modulo
19:57:48 <scarf> (with negative numbers, I mean; with positives, it's obvious)
19:58:44 <AnMaster> does that answer the question?
19:58:49 <cpressey> Then your logic looks right to me. I'm tired too though :)
19:58:57 <scarf> yep, same here, and even same disclaimer
19:59:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, also I don't know if this is specified
19:59:08 <AnMaster> or if it just happens to be that way
19:59:12 <cpressey> If it's not specified you're better off avoiding it
19:59:17 <fizzie> Do we have a Scheme interpreter here?
20:00:32 <cpressey> Are you anticipating having to normalize 10^61 ? :)
20:00:34 <AnMaster> anyway it would have to be tail recursive
20:00:56 <AnMaster> cpressey, but yes, it might happen
20:00:59 <fizzie> C99 % would indeed give -1 there.
20:01:01 <AnMaster> and then I want it to work smoothly
20:01:43 <cpressey> All I meant was that if it's not defined, you're taking your chances. If you want to ensure correctness you'll need to compute remainder yourself somehow.
20:02:09 <cpressey> Whatever "correctness" means w.r.t. Befunge-98, given my sloppy spec :)
20:02:16 <AnMaster> why couldn't the degrees be a power of two
20:02:27 <AnMaster> then some tricky bitshifting would have solved it
20:02:50 <AnMaster> cpressey, anyway I assume TURT is counter clockwise like the normal math notation?
20:02:52 <fizzie> C99's % is defined so that (a/b)*b + a%b == a as long as a/b is representable. And / truncates towards zero, so (-301/300)*300 = (-1)*300 = -300, and from -300 + x = -301 → x = -1.
20:03:17 <cpressey> AnMaster: sounds like a reasonable assumption. It wasn't intended to be evilly weird...
20:03:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, well the fact that it is global "To keep this fingerprint tame, a single Turtle and display is defined to be shared amongst all IP's. The turtle is not defined to wrap if it goes out of bounds (after all this interface might just as well be used to drive a real turtle robot.) "
20:04:24 <AnMaster> quite hilarious that per-ip state is trivial in efunge but somewhat messier in cfunge
20:04:30 <AnMaster> and the reverse applies for global state
20:05:03 <oerjan> a _real_ turtle robot would wrap after 40000000 m
20:05:07 <AnMaster> cpressey, btw if it isn't counter-clockwise both me and Deewiant will personally murder you, same for a few other funge authors I suspect
20:05:35 <scarf> oerjan: exactly by the original definition of a metre
20:05:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, but the cable wouldn't be long enough
20:05:38 <cpressey> Assuming it can travel through oceans safely.
20:05:39 <scarf> although the definition has since changed
20:05:43 <scarf> cpressey: it's a turtle, it can swim
20:06:15 <AnMaster> wait, which one is turtle and which one is tortoise? They have the same name in Swedish
20:06:37 <fizzie> And does the real turtle robot also actually teleport on the T command, instead of just boringly moving without the pen down?
20:06:55 <lament> tortoises, like porpoises, live in water
20:07:05 <lament> but which is the porpoise and which is the dolphin?
20:07:29 <pikhq> It depends on the variant of English.
20:07:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, btw, how is the pen colour and paper colour supposed to work for real turtle bots?
20:07:38 <AnMaster> would they have ink mixers in them?
20:07:54 <oerjan> lament is lying. ban him!
20:08:10 <AnMaster> "Tortoises or land turtles are land-dwelling reptiles of the family of Testudinidae, ..."
20:08:10 <pikhq> British English calls them turtles if they live at sea, terrapins if they live in fresh or brackish water, and tortoises if they live on land.
20:08:22 <AnMaster> "This article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. WikiProject Tree of Life may be able to help recruit one. (November 2008)"
20:08:30 <fizzie> Yes, the "clear with color" command on a real turtle bot will paint the whole earth with that color.
20:08:39 <fizzie> Try not to paint everything pink.
20:08:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: i sincerely doubt it's particular piece of information they need an expert for
20:08:55 <pikhq> American English calls them turtles if they live in water, turtles or tortoises if they live on land, and terrapins if they're the diamondback terrapin.
20:09:11 <cpressey> AnMaster: I don't know about "normal math notation", but in navigation, headings go up clockwise, not counter-clockwise.
20:09:54 <AnMaster> cpressey, you know around the unit circle?
20:09:58 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, but the cable wouldn't be long enough <-- sheesh AnMaster, this is the wireless age
20:09:58 <fizzie> cpressey: On the other hand, you have query heading return "0=east", which sounds more like the "normal math notation".
20:10:06 <cpressey> All the drawings made by one TURT will be inverted by another TURT.
20:10:17 <lament> oerjan: you have ops, you can ban me
20:10:27 <fizzie> If it were "navigationary", you'd think that 0=north.
20:10:51 <oerjan> <AnMaster> cpressey, btw, how is the pen colour and paper colour supposed to work for real turtle bots?
20:11:04 <oerjan> bodily fluid variations. aren't you glad you asked?
20:11:17 <cpressey> Yeah, 0=east strongly implies whoever wrote that was thinking of the unit circle, trig, and all that. Not aircraft navigation.
20:11:40 <AnMaster> cpressey, if it was aircraft navigation it would be using nautical miles
20:11:57 <AnMaster> cpressey, also where is my ILS glideslope :(
20:12:06 <fizzie> For really big turtle bots, maybe one pixel equals one nautical mile.
20:12:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, that doesn't even work for mine. I render to svg
20:12:22 <fizzie> Sblooosh, goes the paint.
20:12:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, one square nautical mile? Or do we use non-square pixels?
20:12:52 <fizzie> How much paint would it take to paint a square nautical mile of seawater, say, pink?
20:12:55 <oerjan> lament: no i don't have ops
20:13:32 <fizzie> oerjan: -ChanServ- 5 oerjan +votsriRfA [modified 2 days, 22:50:33 ago]
20:13:34 <oerjan> unless someone forgot to tell me
20:13:35 <fizzie> oerjan: You certainly seem to have.
20:13:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, does the colour mix in water?
20:14:01 <AnMaster> or does it float on top and try in the sun?
20:14:04 <fizzie> Everyone else has "[modified ? ago]".
20:14:08 <lament> oerjan: i forgot to tell you.
20:14:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't you have ability to edit access list too?
20:14:40 <AnMaster> only thing you are lacking seems to be +F
20:15:04 <lament> we need whatshisname for that.
20:15:21 <oerjan> good grief. i seem to have achieved powers i don't even understand.
20:15:22 <fizzie> lament: Isn't that "whatshisface"?
20:15:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, "andreou" says the access list
20:15:50 <lament> fizzie: i dunno, are they the same person?
20:16:03 <AnMaster> lament, may this person also be known as "andreou"?
20:16:15 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Information on andreou (account andreou):
20:16:15 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Last seen : (about 39 weeks ago)
20:16:34 <AnMaster> which is very early on freenode iirc
20:16:43 <lament> freenode was called openprojects back then
20:16:52 <lament> walks with a limp, talks with a lisp
20:17:01 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Information on lament (account lament):
20:17:02 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:33:46 2003 (7 years, 7 weeks, 3 days, 18:42:45 ago
20:17:14 <AnMaster> hey, only a few minutes after andreou registered his nick
20:17:23 <lament> that's how he got founder :)
20:17:41 <AnMaster> didn't know you went back that far
20:18:05 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Information on fizzie (account fizzie):
20:18:05 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Registered : Sep 23 06:08:22 2002 (7 years, 22 weeks, 0 days, 14:09:05 ago)
20:18:06 <pikhq> Hmm. It's merely been about 5 years since I registered.
20:18:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, but I joined after lament.
20:18:19 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Information on AnMaster (account AnMaster):
20:18:19 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Registered : Dec 26 16:35:03 2005 (4 years, 8 weeks, 3 days, 03:42:46 ago)
20:18:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: On the other hand, I have no idea what sort of channels I might have been on openprojects before #esoteric.
20:18:44 <pikhq> I've been around longer than AnMaster? Hah.
20:18:47 <AnMaster> pikhq registered about half a year before
20:18:48 <lament> i was on the network before, just didn't need to register before #esoteric
20:19:06 <pikhq> ... And why do I have Kial registered to my account?
20:20:02 <scarf> I found the wiki ages before I found the IRC channel
20:20:12 <AnMaster> scarf, but wasn't I in this channel like in late 2006?
20:20:31 <AnMaster> -NickServ- cpressey is not registered.
20:20:35 <scarf> and when I first came here, my only IRC client was Chatzilla running inside Mozilla (not even Firefox) on an ancient SunOS box which only had CDE, via X forwarding
20:20:42 <AnMaster> hey! know what to do when he next disconnects?
20:21:12 <AnMaster> scarf, I have a vague memory of you mentioning that
20:21:20 <AnMaster> scarf, but what terminal were you using?
20:21:40 <AnMaster> scarf, terminal as in system to access it
20:21:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Weird. My oldest log dir for freenode seems to have only #esoteric in it, starting on Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002; what on earth have I been doing from Sep 23, 2002 to Dec 09, 2002...
20:21:44 <scarf> running on Windows
20:21:55 <scarf> AnMaster: all the computers were running Windows
20:22:00 <scarf> and it seems to do X forwarding
20:22:03 <AnMaster> scarf, apart from that sunos box
20:22:08 <fizzie> It's one of the X servers for Windows, isn't it?
20:22:13 <fizzie> Among winaXe and such.
20:22:15 <scarf> no, as in, Exceed is a Windows X client
20:22:20 <scarf> that you forward to
20:22:32 <scarf> so things happen on the server, they come up in your Exceed window
20:22:32 <AnMaster> aren't x clients the application programs?
20:22:43 <fizzie> Yes, X gets the terminology backwards like that.
20:22:46 <scarf> AnMaster: very like vnc
20:22:57 <fizzie> What you run on your system, and which shows the windows on your screen, is the X server.
20:23:08 <AnMaster> scarf, x clients = application programs. X server = the Xorg program or such
20:23:08 <fizzie> And the apps, which you run on a remote server (possibly), are clients.
20:23:42 <AnMaster> scarf, I thought this was well known
20:24:12 <scarf> I assumed that that would be what was running on the SunOS server actually doing the forwarding
20:24:13 <fizzie> We got a copy of the I-think-it-costs-money-in-general WinaXe on the "new student CD" of the university; there was some sort of a campus license agreement.
20:24:29 <AnMaster> scarf, the forwarding.. well that is a tricky issue
20:25:02 <scarf> X reminds me of Java, they both have infinity layers of abstraction to make absolutely sure you can do anything, but have no idea how
20:25:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: 2003 is when I started.
20:26:16 <cpressey> scarf: The section about the X Window System in the UHH is definitely fun reading.
20:26:17 <fizzie> Seems they've been keeping the license thing going; the computing centre web pages have a use-your-service-password-to-login link to WinaXe plus 8.4. I assume it must cost money, since they have it password-protected.
20:26:57 <fizzie> They also have a free license for "Comsol Multiphysics 3.5a (Windows, Linux, Mac)", some sort of partial differential equation numerical solver package.
20:27:58 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:28:04 <scarf> do they hate all other OSes too? or just UNIX in particular?
20:28:16 <scarf> or just POSIXy ones?
20:28:23 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_UNIX-HATERS_Handbook
20:28:29 <scarf> I vaguely remember having heard of it now I've seen the name
20:28:48 <Deewiant> http://www.simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf is the whole thing
20:29:07 <fizzie> Oh, as a member of the university faculty, you can buy Windows 7 Ultimate for 20 eur? I didn't know that.
20:29:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, while students can get it for free using MSDNAA?
20:29:41 <scarf> fizzie: Microsoft's general strategy on Windows is to price it ridiculously high, then give a massive discount to anyone who might plausibly buy it
20:29:55 <scarf> AnMaster: MSDNAA tends to only be for engineering and computer science students
20:30:02 <scarf> as in, people who might plausibly go into programming
20:30:26 <AnMaster> scarf, oh btw what about OEM for windows?
20:30:49 <scarf> AnMaster: depends on the sort of computer, I think
20:30:56 <scarf> I heard a while back that it's $6 on netbooks
20:31:01 <scarf> presumably to compete with Linux
20:31:05 <scarf> but I don't know for certain that that's true
20:31:14 <scarf> it's likely to be much much cheaper than the retail version, at least
20:31:28 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> http://www.simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf is the whole thing <-- that pdf index is confusing. Page 8 is befoge page 4 in the side bar
20:31:40 <AnMaster> which means the selection jumps about when you scroll
20:31:49 <scarf> AnMaster: hey, if you typo "befoge", "befunge" starts to seem more plausible
20:32:08 <scarf> AnMaster: read your own comment
20:32:43 <AnMaster> see how close they are on qwerty
20:32:52 -!- gm|lap has joined.
20:32:59 <scarf> not all that close
20:34:51 <fizzie> They sell the OEM versions of Windows in the local computers-parts place(s); in theory I guess they would sell those only if you buy enough parts that they plausibly constitute a new computer, but I've heard that's not very rigorously enforced.
20:35:18 <fizzie> Of course the "retail OEM" thing is probably much more expensive than what a real OEM with a Real Deal would get.
20:36:56 <fizzie> The documentation and such is a bit OEM-oriented, though. I helped a friend to build his box and install win7 on it; technically speaking I am now bound to provide tech support for him with a "competitive price" that is "not higher than those I charge from my other clients".
20:37:11 <fizzie> Because I happened to be the one to unwrap the box, and those were part of the license papers.
20:37:36 <fizzie> It also required me to plant that ugly sticker somewhere visible on the computer.
20:40:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: I, uh... no comments, someone from Microsoft might be reading. Let's just say I tried, but I might have missed the case by a metre or so.
20:40:45 <fizzie> For the record, Win7 Pro UK retail in this shop is 293.90 eur, the corresponding OEM version is 136.90 eur.
20:41:39 -!- Microsfot has joined.
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20:42:02 <fizzie> They certainly are everywhere.
20:42:45 <fizzie> I did promise I'd accept tech support queries over IRC with a very reasonable rate, though.
20:43:16 <fizzie> None so far, in fact. Must be that Windows 7 is just so good.
20:43:39 <fizzie> (I'm trying to give some praise so that they'd forgive that whole sticker thing.)
20:44:40 <oerjan> hey, it's not your fault that you stumbled and fell with the sticker into the trash can
20:44:44 <Deewiant> Well, Windows 7 /is/ supposedly good.
20:44:55 <scarf> Deewiant: meh, it's just better than Vista
20:45:08 <scarf> and IMO, Vista was better than XP
20:45:27 <Deewiant> So what is Windows 7 worse than?
20:45:46 <cpressey> Since I started using them, I've had fewer problems with Windows 7 than I've had with Python.
20:46:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Actually I had the sticker ready for planting, and then I just accidentally got it stuck to the plastic bag the installation DVD and booklets were in. They're still in the same apartment as the computer, it's not that far off the mark.
20:50:05 <scarf> fizzie: Microsoft licencing can be so fu
20:50:13 <scarf> incidentally, the sticker seems to be on the bottom of this netbook
20:51:43 <fizzie> There were some detailed instructions on where you were allowed to stick the sticker in, but I've forgotten them.
20:51:51 <fizzie> Bottom seems to be popular with laptops, understandably.
20:52:05 <oerjan> scarf: _interesting_ freudian keyboard slip there
20:52:38 <scarf> btw, I have a spare Windows 98 sticker somewhere
20:52:44 <scarf> which I managed to peel off the computer it was originally stuck to
20:52:56 <scarf> despite all the security flanges to stop you doing that
20:55:20 <fizzie> I was under the impression that you were sort-of technically allowed to move even an OEM license from one computer to another, with some added restrictions and bureaucracy.
20:56:54 <fizzie> Interwebs seem to suggest otherwise, but that was just on some "explaining Microsoft licensing to normal people" page.
20:57:42 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:57:51 <fizzie> "One main difference is that an OEM operating system license (such as the license for Windows) cannot be transferred from its original PC to another PC", says Education Operating System Licensing Q&A from Microsoft directly. I guess it's Not Possible(tm), then.
20:58:24 <fizzie> On the other hand, if you change one component at a time, at what time does it cease to be the "original PC"?
20:58:59 <cpressey> I've had a Windows install tell me "TOO MANY PARTS ARE DIFFERENT!!!" after I upgraded some card or other, once.
20:59:33 <cpressey> It made me re-enter the reg key or something, I forget.
21:00:35 <fizzie> Yes, it does that reactivation thing, or so I hear. I wonder if it's possible to reactivatate an OEM license like that.
21:00:35 <Asztal> I heard it was tied to the motherboard, but I could well be thinking of a different version of windows.
21:00:40 <pikhq> fizzie: That claim is perjury.
21:00:43 <pikhq> Doctrine of first sale.
21:01:28 <fizzie> Doctrine of Microsoft sending assault troopers in black helicopters if you try to argue.
21:01:45 <pikhq> fizzie: Microsoft has no assault troopers.
21:01:51 <pikhq> You're probably thinking of Blackwater.
21:02:33 <fizzie> Ooh, they even have a justification for being motherboard-bound.
21:02:48 <fizzie> "Microsoft needed to have one base component "left standing" that would still define that original PC. Since the motherboard contains the CPU and is the "heart and soul" of the PC, when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created."
21:03:23 <pikhq> The motherboard does not contain a CPU, it contains a bus to which a CPU is attached...
21:03:44 <Deewiant> To contain: to be capable of holding
21:03:49 <fizzie> So maybe if you hit the old one with a hammer, and therefore have to replace it because of a defect, there's no problem there.
21:05:29 <pikhq> fizzie: Being old is a defect.
21:06:12 -!- scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:07:40 <cpressey> Fungot, encoding lurks dark corners. Only when the rain, ever to go with no throughput that I could see?
21:07:49 <fungot> cpressey: such are the difficulties of adjudication were great; i think insuperable. whatever acuteness and diligence could do has been done. i have never made a speech, the bishop of st fnord stood rows of eager spectators. it is the only school which they are composed, according to your discretion; no man can estimate the amount of fnord delight and instruction which, perhaps, at the full fnord tide of your favour," said mrs
21:08:06 <Deewiant> The bishop of st fnord sounds like a cool guy
21:11:45 <augur> ilari: cfg's + a global control stack
21:12:37 -!- Pthing has joined.
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21:22:54 <oerjan> what language is that?
21:23:12 <cpressey> I dunno. Some functional pseudocode.
21:23:30 <oerjan> if you s/letrec/let/ it would be haskell
21:23:58 <cpressey> If I used parens instead of = and in, it would be Scheme.
21:24:33 <Ilari> augur: Got URL where it is described?
21:25:01 <MissPiggy> let haskell = haskell in haskell where produc [1..n]
21:25:11 <augur> take a look at this wikipedia page that i created http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar
21:26:14 <MissPiggy> that looks really nice augur I like these diagrams
21:27:33 <lament> #fff - sharp fortissimo
21:28:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube
21:28:49 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
21:29:01 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
21:29:06 <fungot> AnMaster: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! the king does not wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
21:30:43 <cpressey> That #fff reminds me, I saw a modern production of Berlioz's "Damnation of Faust" the other day. In the opening scene, Dr. Faust was sitting at what looked like an Apple ][, with some esolang-output/trace-looking-stuff flickering on the wall behind him.
21:31:09 <lament> cpressey: are you in vancouver?
21:36:20 <cpressey> Where I am, at present, trying to understand some "clever" Python code. And failing.
21:36:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: It alone can't stop.
21:37:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm guessing it's talking about the masamune, because that's the most well-known mystical sword. I could be wrong, though.
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21:39:07 <AnMaster> fungot, why didn't the king wish btw?
21:39:08 <fungot> AnMaster: i shall help also. you must return to us, the chancellor's a decent man. why, this is for you guys are a lot! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
21:39:20 <fizzie> The part "took back .. for myself!" is a direct quotation.
21:40:03 <fizzie> From when Cyrus leaves, in Frog's flashback.
21:40:40 <AnMaster> fungot, but what about the sword?
21:40:41 <fungot> AnMaster: frog will do. the king fought the mystics over 400 long years. when will it be the reptites, or you silly apes who end up ruling the world??
21:40:52 <fungot> AnMaster: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
21:42:06 <fizzie> And the King part is from "The King does not wish to see anybody", with the ! from something like "They must have a death wish!"
21:42:38 <fizzie> fungot: Can the sword alone stop it?
21:42:39 <fungot> fizzie: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch. you must return to us, the chancellor's a decent man. why, this is for you guys are a lot! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a treasure there... found the treasure!! probably filled with mystical forest powers. we are immortal! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we
21:42:45 <fungot> AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like...
21:43:08 <AnMaster> "the hero has made the epoch, your wings!"
21:43:25 <fizzie> I really should stick in the "use the previous line as the intial context", that'd make it easier to get the repepepetitition.
21:43:28 <AnMaster> I thought it was that guy in the future who did
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21:43:48 <fizzie> And the wings were added by Dalton in 12000 BC Zeal.
21:43:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, you remembered the name?
21:44:04 <AnMaster> I knew it was added buy that other guy
21:44:08 <fizzie> It's Dalton, after all.
21:45:03 <fizzie> He's such a flashy guy, easy to remember.
21:45:04 <AnMaster> I forgot who that guy was, some boss
21:45:11 <fizzie> Likes the sound of his own name, too.
21:45:27 <fizzie> "Bow, and pay homage to our new liege, King Dalton! -- The old crone and the pesky Gurus are gone. I now rename Zeal, the Kingdom of Dalton!"
21:46:25 <AnMaster> not sure what it is in English
21:46:42 <AnMaster> " 1. coddle excessively; pamper"
21:46:44 <fizzie> "dalta vb itr, dalta med ngn klema coddle (mollycoddle, pamper) sb; kela pet (fondle) sb" says our Swedish-English dictionary.
21:47:05 <fizzie> ("MOT Norstedts stora engelska ordbok 1.0")
21:47:30 <AnMaster> I thought they came in like "1995 edition"
21:49:59 <cpressey> AnMaster: probably related to English "dote" ?
21:50:18 <AnMaster> cpressey, not sure what that is?
21:50:41 <cpressey> 1.to bestow or express excessive love or fondness habitually (usually fol. by on or upon): They dote on their youngest daughter.
21:51:07 <cpressey> I wasn't aware of the other 2 meanings it gives
21:51:40 <cpressey> 2. to show a decline of mental faculties, esp. associated with old age. 3. decay of wood.
21:56:24 <AnMaster> why can't double sided printing be easy
21:57:01 <fizzie> Maybe the web versions have version numbers. I don't know.
21:57:39 <AnMaster> some sort of yearly thing or such
21:57:43 <fizzie> "MOT Norstedts stora engelska ordbok 1.0
21:57:43 <fizzie> I denna tredje upplaga av Norstedts stora svensk-engelska ordbok har ca 6 000 aktuella ord och fraser lagts till. Dessutom har nya betydelser lagts till på befintliga uppslagsord, och innehållet har reviderats och moderniserats. -- Stockholm i maj 2000"
21:58:00 <fizzie> They do, we have access via the university proxy though.
21:59:47 <fizzie> There used to be a "netmot foo" command-line shortcut on the standard shell server -- it used lynx --dump, IIRC -- though I think that's broken right now, there's been some URL changes now that this is the Wave University.
21:59:55 <AnMaster> btw my printer has reported that the black ink is almost used up for about a month now. During that time I printed around 200 pages of written text I think
22:01:19 <fizzie> It tries to maximize profit to the printer manufacturer without *completely* lying.
22:01:44 <AnMaster> wonderful linux support there though
22:02:05 <AnMaster> better linux drivers by far than the windows drivers
22:02:10 <AnMaster> and all features supported of course
22:02:28 <AnMaster> I think there is semi-official help from HP with those drivers even
22:08:38 <fizzie> Oh, they're "wonderful" nowadays? I think at some point in time they were a horrible binary blob. But I could be wrong. (I've usually just used the free alternatives.)
22:09:41 <fizzie> Maybe it's Lexmark's binary horribleness I'm thinking about.
22:10:20 <AnMaster> hplip is open source and works very very wekk
22:10:39 <AnMaster> never got my old lexmark printer/scanner/copier to work well under linux
22:10:44 <AnMaster> as in, it wasn't even detected
22:10:49 <fizzie> Though I'm pretty sure it was HP who bundled the whole Apache Tomcat with their Windows drivers just to show some printer statistics control panel tab.
22:10:57 <AnMaster> possibly before first ubuntu version even
22:11:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes hp's windows drivers suck a lot
22:11:48 <AnMaster> while on linux it just works (remember to turn off the tray icon thingy though)
22:11:59 <AnMaster> (but once you do that it doesn't show up again)
22:12:11 <fizzie> I have (well, technically speaking my wife has) a Lexmark E232 model-cheapo B&W laser printer, which works pretty well with CUPS + gutenprint's "Generic PCL 6/PCL XL printer" drivers.
22:12:20 <AnMaster> (and the app doesn't seem to auto start at all :)
22:12:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is a printer/scanner/copier thingy though
22:12:55 <fizzie> Yes, those are always messier.
22:13:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, and laser printers are always easier
22:13:11 <AnMaster> they are generally postscript aren't they?
22:14:18 <fizzie> Cheap laser printers typically aren't postscript.
22:14:43 <fizzie> Quite many (like this) support the very much simpler PCL language, though.
22:15:00 <fizzie> PCL, incidentally, is a HP thing.
22:15:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the only postscript printers I have had to deal with have been monster things where you log in on the printer afterwards to print your buffered document
22:15:59 <AnMaster> (they have those at our university)
22:16:06 <AnMaster> oh and pseudo printers of course
22:16:28 <fizzie> I think our printers support that sort of stuff too, but no-one uses those features, and I'm not sure they'd work anyway.
22:16:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, they aren't optional at our university
22:17:18 <fizzie> A LaserJet 5200 is the one I usually print to at work.
22:17:32 <fizzie> Or a LaserJet... 4650?, when colors are needed.
22:17:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, they have paper sorter and automatic <whatever is the English word of the metal things you punch through paper to bind them together>
22:18:01 <fizzie> Right, those get pretty complicated.
22:18:18 <AnMaster> isn't that for putting in binders
22:19:01 <fizzie> At my civil service place all large print jobs were printed to the copy machine, which also was a horrible monstrosity with all kinds of "which parts of the paper you want stapled" options.
22:19:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are rumored to be colour printers at university (according to printer selection window). I have yet to successfully locate where they are physically located.
22:19:47 <AnMaster> oh you have värnplikt there still?
22:20:14 <fizzie> Yes, if it means what I think it does.
22:20:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't you use that dict
22:20:31 <fizzie> What can I say? We're a bit traditionalists.
22:21:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, there is an even larger printer monster with automatic paper feed for copying kind of thing at one place at the university
22:22:01 <fizzie> Anyhow, I was doing desktop publishing work for Brottspåföljdssektorns utbildningscentral (the new name; I'm not sure what the old one was in Swedish) for a year.
22:22:06 <AnMaster> I don't think the other one actually has that
22:22:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, what the heck do they do. I can read each part of that
22:22:38 <cpressey> When I (first) went to university, there was a big ol' daisywheel line printer named "R5"... loud enough that it was housed in a room by itself.
22:22:45 <AnMaster> but I can only hazard a guess that it is related to crime
22:23:13 <AnMaster> cpressey, you are older than us
22:23:16 <fizzie> They arrange the training you need if you want to work in a prison, basically. And some other criminology-as-a-study related stuff.
22:23:25 <fizzie> Oh, right; the printers. Our place has some for-students color printers in a separate room; you print things there, then collect them from the "printouts desk" and pay for it. (Black-and-white stuff is free.)
22:23:30 <cpressey> AnMaster: And the university was a bit behind the times at the time, yes :)
22:23:44 <AnMaster> cpressey, around when was it? late 1980?
22:24:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, we get to pay for both and have some sort of printer account thingy
22:24:41 <AnMaster> forgot how many pages I have left on it
22:24:45 <AnMaster> I very rarely print there though
22:25:12 <AnMaster> inkjet at home probably costs less in practise
22:25:43 <AnMaster> anyway I worked out a how to correctly do double sided printing :D
22:26:51 <AnMaster> "odd pages, reverse order", put them in with the bottom at the page towards you, text facing up (it's one of those printers with the tray below where the printer comes out). Then "even pages, usual order"
22:26:58 <AnMaster> reverse order is the one where the first page ends up at the top
22:27:32 <fizzie> Ah. Our B&W printing policy is "please don't use huge amounts of resources, because if you do, then we're going to have to start enforcing quotas here, and that'll make no-one happy".
22:27:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, normal (for completely unfathomable reasons) is the one where you have to reverse the order of the printed out pages
22:28:04 <AnMaster> why not make the other the default
22:28:53 <fizzie> There's a (non-free) a-bit-wider-than-A0 no-real-limit-for-length,-it's-a-huge-roll poster-printer available for students, too. But that one was pretty expensive.
22:28:55 <AnMaster> I have yet to see a printer designed so that the pages end up in the right order when you print in the non-reversed order
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22:29:26 <AnMaster> well that kind of printers are pretty fancy yeah
22:29:40 <fizzie> The print queue is called "mankeli" (Finnish for sv:mangel).
22:29:44 <fizzie> I assume it looks like one, too.
22:30:27 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var
22:30:46 <Deewiant> `translatefromto fi en mankeli
22:31:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, the printers at my uni are called "followme" usually because they are supposed to point to the nearest printer of the selected color-or-b&w-nsss
22:31:06 <fizzie> 1. mangle -- (clothes dryer for drying and ironing laundry by passing it between two heavy heated rollers)
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22:31:18 <AnMaster> and you have to go figure out where the heck the printer is
22:32:10 <AnMaster> <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, [...]
22:32:24 <AnMaster> looked like it catted the source code?
22:32:43 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:32:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ translateto "en $1"
22:32:53 <HackEgo> translate is /tmp/hackenv.28858/bin/translate
22:33:08 <HackEgo> bin/translate: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
22:33:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, then why that strange output above
22:33:29 <Gregor> A) That's JAVASCRIPT code from translate.google.com
22:33:38 <Gregor> B) They keep changing their output, and I can't keep up.
22:34:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, looked slightly like perl + var to me
22:34:25 <AnMaster> but there is probably some Acme module for that
22:34:30 <Gregor> From a bunch of variable assignments? :P
22:35:18 <fizzie> The specs say mankeli's a HP DesignJet 2500CP; "600 DPI, 60 LPI", but I think that LPI value is a typo, since all specs in the web talk about "true 600 DPI". And the print queue is moderated; you have to call/email them before any submitted jobs are processed. (Presumably because they don't want a 87 cm wide and 10 metres long picture of a human penis come out of it unannounced.)
22:36:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's pretty small text
22:36:28 <AnMaster> </intentional misinterpretation>
22:37:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, what sort of lines are those
22:37:58 <fizzie> Lines of points? LPI's just the "vertical resolution" there, while DPI's the horizontal (across-paper) one. But I really think they both are actually 600 points per inch.
22:38:11 <fizzie> The printing seems to cost 20 eur/metre, on the 90 cm wide paper.
22:38:32 <fizzie> +22 % value added tax.
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22:40:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's very very expensive indeed
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22:40:24 <fizzie> Yes. I've never printed anything with it.
22:41:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, you must be at university very late?
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22:42:17 <fizzie> Neither. The computing centre web site is publicly available.
22:42:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, but the printer details?
22:43:17 <AnMaster> is that public to the internet too? :D
22:44:14 <fizzie> http://itservices.tkk.fi/fi/ohjeet/hinnasto/ if you can read Finnish.
22:44:34 <fizzie> http://itservices.tkk.fi/fi/ohjeet/anvandningspolitik/ if you want to read the usage policy in Swedish.
22:44:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you mean anyone over the internet can submit to any of the printers at that uni?
22:44:52 <fizzie> No, just the specs and the name of the printer queue is mentioned there.
22:45:05 <fizzie> Obviously you have to be using one of the university computers to actually access the queue.
22:45:14 <augur> MissPiggy: hows them gigs? 8D
22:45:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, s/politik/policy/ and it would make sens in Swedish Swedish
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22:46:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: I doubt they have had anyone with real skills to translate that stuff.
22:46:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: In any case, the instructions seem to be there in English too if you're terminally interested, but it's very boring stuff.
22:46:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly. Also it could be sv_FI and sv_SE diffs
22:46:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, and I'm not that interested no
22:47:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, at least it is better than translations like "all your base are belong to us" or "spoony <you probably know what>"
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22:47:45 * AnMaster would be extremely surprised if fizzie didn't know that one
22:49:11 <AnMaster> what was the original (more literally)
22:50:18 <AnMaster> btw the last xkcd wasn't too bad
22:52:22 <fizzie> "After submitting a chargeable print job, please consult the pidgeonhole in room U115a for further information. Payment takes place in U115a."
22:52:41 <fizzie> "Please consult the pidgeonhole for further information."
22:53:21 <fizzie> Yes, there is also a spelling mistake.
22:53:26 <fizzie> But it's funny even without that.
22:54:38 <fizzie> The Finnish instructions just say the submitted jobs can be collected from room U115a.
22:54:54 <cpressey> I'm guessing it would be something like "teller window"?
22:55:39 <cpressey> Especially if it is manned by a real pigeon.
22:56:32 <cpressey> Well, at least they didn't say "cubbyhole".
22:56:49 <fizzie> They use the word "dovecote" (fi:kyyhkyslakka, sv:duvslag) for the boxy-shelf-thing-thing where homework assignment papers and such (mostly for maths courses) are distributed from.
22:57:12 <fizzie> That one also has no live birds in it, which is a shame.
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23:01:51 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle -- I love the way they have a picture of real pigeons and holes.
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