< 1267142581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267143740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267146660 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267147228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267147357 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267147617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267147719 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267148453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267148545 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267148978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267149023 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267149234 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1267150083 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267151128 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267154531 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1267156194 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-173-235.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267156313 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267156509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267156567 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267157393 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267157777 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@97-118-213-9.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267157928 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267158903 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1267159212 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267160134 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1267160413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267160613 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267160797 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267160859 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the note about INTERCAL in the topic message. But what I know, is, P.D.Q. Bach is the INTERCAL of Baroque music. But it doesn't help much unless you know about both INTERCAL and about P.D.Q. Bach. < 1267161596 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to figure out how to add natural numbers represented as sets < 1267161698 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am still also trying to figure out how to write a program in Hyper Set Language that produces a set of all non-halting programs < 1267162498 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267162731 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267162778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo bitches < 1267162823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1267163052 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have looking up things about set theory on Wikipedia, today. < 1267163091 0 :kwertii_!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267163243 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267163243 0 :kwertii_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :kwertii < 1267163282 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the old Russell's paradox set in Hyper Set Language was wrong, I fixed it now, hopefully this way is actually Russell's paradox for real, this time: Russell={[0.#;1.0]/(element_of/(#.#))}\*; < 1267163317 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where element_of={[<#]&>#;not/(not/@)}; < 1267163332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not=({0}!(0.0))|(0.1); < 1267163636 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267164186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you should help work on the formal grammars pages. :D < 1267165177 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What formal grammars pages did you mean? < 1267165243 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I looked at the article about fuzzy sets, and now it allowed me to think of something else, which is, quantum fuzzy sets (the probabilities can be entangled). < 1267165341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/pages/index.php?name=Augur&namespace=0&redirects=noredirects < 1267165375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the ones i created recently, i also modified the TAG, CCG, and Indexed Grammar pages < 1267165388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should contribute some stuff regarding some other formalisms < 1267165481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which ones should I contribute? < 1267165492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything you want! < 1267165496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not controlled grammars < 1267165500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since im working on that page < 1267165501 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267165507 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1267165524 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't know enough about formal grammars to write a Wikipedia article < 1267165755 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah! PHP works now on Hackiki. < 1267165822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok, zzo38, its a opportunity to LEARN about them. :D < 1267165854 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes, I can learn about formal grammar from what is already written on Wikipedia < 1267165855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rates xkcd on WOT as being not particularly child friendly < 1267165870 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "WOT" means < 1267165884 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no no, i mean, you can find some reference to some formalism on wikipedia that isnt property explained, or given thorough examples, or whatever < 1267165884 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Web of Trust < 1267165887 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mywot.com < 1267165890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can go research them, etc. < 1267165905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what im doing for the categorial minimalism stuff, and for the control grammar stuff < 1267165923 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267165926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you just go through doing that. if you find some reference in a paper or book to some formalism you havent heard of ever, check to see if its on wiki < 1267165931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, go find info about it and put it up < 1267166042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something about Reddit that my computer doesn't like < 1267166043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267166053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im going to play some wipeout < 1267166104 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm on Hackiki now < 1267166108 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1267166177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redbull is THE official drink of the early Wipeout games. :D < 1267166182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i like redbull or anything but < 1267166639 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267166745 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267166972 0 :adu_!~ajr@pool-173-66-14-213.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267167054 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267167397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should not be on the computer right now < 1267167402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be sleeping < 1267167433 0 :adu_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu_ < 1267167545 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1267167882 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-77-28.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267167959 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267168229 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: good night < 1267169013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldnt be sleeping < 1267169013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267169941 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1267171199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267171200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267171412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ive invented fun little variant of the lambda calculus which isnt usable as a mode of computation but which is useful in constructing interesting representations of meaning :T < 1267172389 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267174078 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267174757 0 :scarf!~scarf@147.188.254.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267174761 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267174761 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267174997 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC is a child molester -> http://silverex.net/news <- i couldn't change my quit message < 1267176158 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267176163 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267176802 0 :SHAXMAT!~opera@188.113.192.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267177116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267177194 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267177378 0 :SHAXMAT!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267178668 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-192-244.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267179313 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267179344 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267181931 0 :scarf_!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267182055 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267182502 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1267182516 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1267182519 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267182952 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267185297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267185346 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267186368 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267187417 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267187426 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187431 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-213-9.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187672 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187855 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187905 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267187929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I see the note about INTERCAL in the topic message. But what I know, is, P.D.Q. Bach is the INTERCAL of Baroque music. But it doesn't help much unless you know about both INTERCAL and about P.D.Q. Bach. < 1267187951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um there is a major distinction: INTERCAL actually _exists_. < 1267187966 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on the forum where that was originally posted, it made sense to assume that I Wanna Be The Guy would be well-known to people who viewed it < 1267188002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I Wanna Be The Guy _also_ exists, i believe < 1267188020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i had heard of it (on this channel), so... < 1267188026 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does exist < 1267188052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am referring to P.D.Q. Bach, who regretfully doesn't (and never did). < 1267188096 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267188122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would bet that we have a better fit to that on the wiki. any of the Lesser Known languages, say < 1267188207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly existence of persons and existence of programming languages may not be quite directly comparable. < 1267188493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267189915 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267192986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267194251 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267196966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any esolang where writing tac would be easier than writing cat? < 1267196988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case you don't know, tac is like cat but reverses the order of the lines) < 1267197013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, know any such esolang? < 1267197633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any stack-based one with only line-based I/O, presumably < 1267198050 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267198644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If INTERCAL's the PDQ Bach, which one's the Victor Borge? < 1267198778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how so? tac doesn't reverse the stuff inside a given line < 1267198784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only reverses the order of lines < 1267198799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Thus the restriction for line-based I/O < 1267198816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed, but still it would be as simple as doing one read then one write and so on < 1267198818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess it's still easier to print them out as they come in < 1267198818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after each other < 1267198820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267198844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is not a valid answer to my question then < 1267198909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It mightn't've been in any case, if no such language exists < 1267198940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err "mightn't've"? < 1267198952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might not have < 1267198954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267199755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cyclexa would be like that if not for a hack that meant that both ways were equally easy < 1267200187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm *looks* < 1267200199 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing to look at < 1267200204 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it treats memory as a stack < 1267200210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no wiki page? < 1267200223 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, vapourware < 1267200236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, describe it then, since you obviously know about it < 1267200261 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: think stupidly generalised regex < 1267200273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1267200281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't quite imagine what that means < 1267202425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It matches things besides strings? Pointers, dogs, bicycles, trampolines, caves, ideologies, chuck steak...? < 1267202502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kicks it up 1.125 notches < 1267202530 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/BA(M*)!/ < 1267202607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that FILE is too C-dependant < 1267202627 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, think of "B" in a regex as meaning "if the current string starts with B, remove it; otherwise fail" < 1267202628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to implement all of r, w, a, r+, w+, a+ in erlang < 1267202632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some I can do < 1267202636 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what it means in Cyclexa < 1267202644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, B^ means "add a B to the start of the current string" < 1267202647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some I'm unsure what the hell the distinction is supposed to be < 1267202721 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Sounds kind of like the regex version of an unrestricted grammar (or relatively unrestricted) < 1267202786 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not sure what the a means (I thought + meant append) but I thought the rest were supported (Erlang used to even use the same chars as C, but they changed it at some point) < 1267202806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it seems related to positioning of the stream < 1267202810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: + means both readable and writable < 1267202824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but then why not rw < 1267202830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why is there r+ and w+ < 1267202831 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and r positions at start, w truncates the file then there's only one position, a positions at end < 1267202837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't they be eqiv then? < 1267202840 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1267202846 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r+ lets you read from the start, or write at the start < 1267202853 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w+ truncates the file < 1267202860 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after writing to it, you can read back what you just read < 1267202863 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay C. < 1267202865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is tricky, I need to manually emulate w+ I think < 1267202905 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267202944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*read back what you just wrote < 1267202944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've yet to run into a non-eso language that doesn't support those six modes trivially < 1267202954 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: VHDL? < 1267202964 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, hello world is awful in VHDL < 1267202988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well there is no "read+write+truncate", I need to do some manual truncate after for that mode < 1267202995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's not really a programming language < 1267202997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology test all 5 modes or just some? < 1267203007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what a weird statement < 1267203010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one or two I think < 1267203021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how irritating :P < 1267203022 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just not intended to program computers, which is why it's so different < 1267203025 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, I haven't used it < 1267203037 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah < 1267203052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/eso/eso computer programming/ < 1267203070 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why programming should be restricted to computer programming in general, though < 1267203086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in general, but in the context of file I/O... < 1267203098 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1267203117 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, you could just say that freestanding C has no file I/O at all unless it's in a nonstandard library < 1267203860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION builds a "Hello World" circuit on his breadboard < 1267203893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's a battery, two wires, and a lamp.) < 1267204153 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267204804 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267205141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, interesting mycology result on half-implemented FILE: < 1267205150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 00S reflected < 1267205150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: closed file with C < 1267205150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: reopened file in append+read mode < 1267205154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that loops forever < 1267205157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until ctrl-c < 1267205158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those lines < 1267205174 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Whoops" < 1267205281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, I'm just curious how it could happen. I assume you don't care about "fixing" it to error out more gracefully, but if you did, here is the output showing which ones are implemented: < 1267205296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/jjKh < 1267205305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably just the S error handler goes to the wrong place < 1267205346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right, a trace is really painful here. Should be possible to spot it by reading the code if it is as simple as that though < 1267205359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to implement L < 1267205388 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267205511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting API < 1267205538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file:position(IoDev, cur) to set the possition to the current one and get the current abs position < 1267205546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically a no-change to read current < 1267205638 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267205656 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267205722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tell me if you want me to test any fixed version, preferably before I implement S. < 1267205726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is soon < 1267205744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can easily break it in a local CCBI < 1267205771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267205774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need then < 1267205837 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267205896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is FILE byte based or unicode based? < 1267205908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this poll also goes to fizzie < 1267205922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess unicode might break fungot's use of FILE < 1267205922 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: these unique items make us invincible! but you are true heros. the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos. < 1267205951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The spec says < 1267206045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1267206075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology test that? < 1267206084 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267206084 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267206085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not < 1267206091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^irc < 1267206093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it just wrote text, not binary < 1267206097 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc < 1267206097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267206097 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) < 1267206108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, testing value above 255 would be a good idea < 1267206116 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was getting sick of that game < 1267206118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's UNDEF < 1267206126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267206127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Functions W and R write cells as bytes, any cells containing values greater than 255 will have the top bits stripped. " < 1267206134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FILE < 1267206144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so doesn't look undef to me < 1267206146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, darn < 1267206153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, unless he added that after < 1267206158 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He did < 1267206160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway < 1267206181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that operation is somewhat confusing < 1267206191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't modulo 256 is it? < 1267206204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is < 1267206208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267206216 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says nothing about negative numbers though :-P < 1267206223 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need a special bit stripper to properly strip off the "top bits". < 1267206330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, har < 1267206340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well lets assume something for them -_- < 1267206697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that thing about FILE that you got negative values for bytes >= 128 on some interpreter. < 1267206714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot only uses values in the [0, 127] range, doing multibyte values in a base-128 sort of way. < 1267206715 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's simple to understand. :p fnord/ news/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord, that is). < 1267206773 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What interpreter is fungot running on? < 1267206774 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: even bawden rees point out in the third argument to dynamic-wind calls a continuation from outside the environment itself... < 1267206802 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: last I heard it was cfunge, and before that rc/funge < 1267206805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure < 1267207031 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I heard too < 1267207334 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it matter that the rcfunge homepage doesnt say what rcfunge is for? < 1267207379 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the manuals, which do say < 1267207609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267207681 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: that's typical of the rc/funge documentaion < 1267207684 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*documentation < 1267207719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, fungot started on RC/Funge, then migrated to cfunge. < 1267207720 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i cannot see where are the logs? where is the middot? can't find it with a spoon for far too long. you can't. scheme is a language of stuff like that < 1267207728 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION found the website confusing < 1267207785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/commitdiff/75359446b1d88ef6644b88f3fa879d2f8d683592 was needed to make it work on cfunge. < 1267207786 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: scroll down to the mit scheme repl does indeed provide hooks for customizing the printer, but it's not r5rs < 1267207866 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-53-123.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267207875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is my FILE G in cfunge so complex < 1267207877 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267207895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it tries to emulate fgets() but treating all of \r \n \r\n as newlines < 1267207896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1267207918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some difference on how STRN's L/R worked in the corner case of requesting more characters than the length of the string itself. < 1267207965 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-53-123.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267207978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1267208000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge can't yet run it < 1267208017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to missing SOCK and FING and STRN < 1267208063 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec now specifies that L/R with more than the number of chars should return the full string, but I think cfunge instead reflects; it was some sort of theological argument about the immutability of specifications there. < 1267208063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not implementing FILE because of it, but to avoid having to do rm myco*.tmp < 1267208069 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267208071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a few mycology runs < 1267208091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, s/theological/philosophical/ < 1267208112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just used to do 'ccbi mycology.b98; rm -f *.tmp' < 1267208121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure but still < 1267208218 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267208272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why the hell do I have pop_gnirts, push_list and push_gnirtses in efunge... < 1267208287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for push_list I would need to reverse it < 1267208483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :push_gnirts(Stack, String) -> < 1267208484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : lists:reverse(String, [0|Stack]). < 1267208494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is a wonderful implementation < 1267208497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree cpressey? < 1267208535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also *watches confusion grow amongst Deewiant, fizzie and scarf* < 1267208555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't remember a lists:reverse/2 < 1267208589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh so you became confused too? < 1267208598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see erl -man lists of course < 1267208639 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recognise it, being used to Prolog < 1267208658 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a bit non-obvious what reverse does there, I agree < 1267208695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, it reverses the first list then appends the second < 1267208708 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1267208709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is a BIF it should be pretty well optimised too < 1267208736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BIF = Built In Function. Means it is implemented (in C probably) by the runtime) < 1267208783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the compiler can't recognize and optimize lists:reverse(List) ++ Tail. < 1267208826 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit silly < 1267208835 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267208907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, really? How strange. < 1267208923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm being somewhat facetious. < 1267208927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it does. It certainly does optimise [H] ++ Tail into [H|Tail] < 1267208934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read that somewhere (official docs iirc) < 1267208971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, har < 1267208975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly possible to write "sufficiently clever compilers", but you rarely encounter them in the world at large. < 1267209059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what does G do on EOF? < 1267209065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems cfunge reflects on that < 1267209189 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell you anything beyond what the spec says < 1267209201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that "b" returned by FILE's G in http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FILE ? < 1267209245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember < 1267209253 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe nothing < 1267209283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology assume G trims the trailing whitespace? < 1267209284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267209288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trailing newline I meant < 1267209307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is number of bytes < 1267209318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the length of the 0gnirts < 1267209324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(excluding the 0 it seems) < 1267209329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. That wasn't very obvious. < 1267209329 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you ask me instead of mycology < 1267209341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: G didn't read 'foo\n' < 1267209342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267209346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumping it shows it did < 1267209347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267209415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION awaits the "Deewiant, ^" < 1267209423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh found it < 1267209443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pitty this means I can no longer use lists:reverse/2, since I don't need to reverse at all < 1267209457 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267209523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pit viper falls into a pit. How pitiful. Isn't that the pits? < 1267209532 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1267209536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :) < 1267209558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw, I think we have another bug with R reflecting causing the program to go to the wrong place < 1267209588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, basically look at: http://sprunge.us/IfWW < 1267209622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not infinite here < 1267209626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stops after that point < 1267209798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least I got this in: < 1267209802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true = Bytes =< 0 < 1267209814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? Because that way I throw an exception if it isn't true < 1267209828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I can move all the error handling for this function to one place < 1267209846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err fix the order of >= < 1267209854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>= that is < 1267209978 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267210271 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267210544 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267210727 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267210960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is this? < 1267210969 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, typing the keys on the keyboard feels so light < 1267210973 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just blowing snow. < 1267211222 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267211251 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267211257 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Your fingers get vibrated numb? < 1267211282 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's physically hard pushing on the snow blower < 1267211328 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesnt live where snow falls, so didnt realise < 1267211346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the snow blower is crap, tbh < 1267211417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you should switch to a snow-sucker. < 1267211604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps even a snow-melter. < 1267211674 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A snow-sublimator. < 1267211695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It blows cool, dry air on the snow, and the snow sublimates into that air. < 1267211766 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or increase global warming < 1267211859 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, increasing global warming has all sorts of negative effects... :-> < 1267211899 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is alise < 1267211932 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, good point < 1267212045 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Won't he be here tomorrow, or is he usually here on Fridays? < 1267212129 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1267212146 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's usually here friday evening < 1267212150 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not most of the day < 1267212419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is alise still a he? < 1267212584 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267212936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushed the FILE for cfunge (both trunk and supervisor-tree) < 1267212952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : What language is this? <-- what language is what? < 1267212959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: s/cfunge/efunge/? < 1267212964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err yeah < 1267212966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo < 1267212977 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever language they were talking about? < 1267212989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, when? < 1267212996 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I said that < 1267213020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then the channel had been idle for a bit over 15 minutes, so none I guess < 1267213052 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever language they were talking about 15min before I said that, then < 1267213078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, befunge and/or erlang < 1267213097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, if it was the discussion I was involved in < 1267213106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't even remember < 1267213112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you even care then < 1267213113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1267213115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just scroll up < 1267213131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it is still on screen < 1267213139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just over half a page ago now < 1267213184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway: might be time to update the mycology results page soon. Perhaps include efunge too :) < 1267213203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, note that only supervisor-tree has TURT < 1267213211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in general it is less stable < 1267213354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, funny misreading: < 1267213358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 34V is 5 < 1267213359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :became < 1267213360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 34V is 5A < 1267213364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1267213365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267213425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is true for a direct current if the total resistance is 6.8 Ohm, and we assume there are only simple linear components) < 1267213463 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how many facepalms the next episode of SG-1 [in season 9] will give him < 1267213466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, I wonder why CPLI doesn't do polar form < 1267213603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly, 6.8 ohms is one of the standard values for resistors, too < 1267213623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, by the way: "Can't test o in linear text mode: i ignores spaces, no way to know from within standard Funge-98 whether they are output to file." is completely wrong. You can see if it skipped those spaces when reading in again. Like, the data continues after those spaces where it should < 1267213626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good old E12 < 1267213629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read it in in binary mode < 1267213633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get it all on one line < 1267213659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh yeah, probably a hidden message there! < 1267213755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I think this requires a fingerprint ACDC that would implement various electricity related calculations < 1267213817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are more operations than there are upper case letters, especially for AC < 1267213968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw if you are interested in efunge: bzr branch lp:~anmaster/efunge/supervisor-tree < 1267213990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge would be at bzr branch lp:cfunge < 1267214004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yay for vendor creep, better to say it before someone else does) < 1267214039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lp: of course is a short hand for https://something.launchpad.net/) < 1267214114 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: o with that mode removes only trailing spaces < 1267214175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, and trailing newlines / form feeds) < 1267214179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on each line < 1267214200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so while you couldn't check trailing newlines/ff at the end of the file < 1267214213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could check if it removed spaces at the end of all but the last line < 1267214226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also if FILE was available you could check it fully < 1267214248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, FILE could be intentionally lying if the interpreter detected mycology) < 1267214257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that seems rather unlikely) < 1267214278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology doesn't really try to handle being lied to ;-P < 1267214290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267214312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, do you use G or just R for your FILE usage? < 1267214336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think I use G for some of the ^command persistence things, since it was easier there. < 1267214351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's a line-based format.) < 1267214376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267214389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess i in binary mode only doesn't write spaces, it still increments the x-coordinate < 1267214402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION debates if to enable the read_ahead option when opening files in FILE < 1267214405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, I think you could detect it in that way, you're right < 1267214417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep < 1267214450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you see: < 1267214455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The read_ahead buffer is also highly utilized by the read_line/1 function in raw mode, why this option is recommended (for performance reasons) when accessing raw files using that function." < 1267214468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since I (for various reasons) use raw files... < 1267214505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :default size for read_ahead is 64 kb < 1267214506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267214511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing performance-intensive in fungot uses G, though; just the initial state-loading. < 1267214513 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: aaargh... this bug can't be found that easily... but i probably will < 1267214523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267214524 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267214527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267214530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ct any more < 1267214532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explains it < 1267214560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't FILE have an option for transparent gzip :/ < 1267214566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way it would have been trivial in erlang < 1267214576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there is (for some reason) built in support for that < 1267214580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a flag to file:open < 1267214607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(doesn't work with read+write of course= < 1267214610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/)/ < 1267214631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style nethack < 1267214632 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) < 1267214648 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what do you sound like with the nethack style? < 1267214649 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: they say that some yetis are full of hot air. its small, distant cousin. various varieties exist, and whispered to him, " one rest") is sometimes termed " minister to the sea; there's no food. < 1267214670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much would readahead benefit fungot for R though? < 1267214671 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nurses are trained to touch it. so david prevailed over the lower edge of the tribute) as well quit now!" i-hsiu was unable to quit it for use in hand-to-hand combat; wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or avoid the gaze of the dead. < 1267214702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No clue, since I don't know how much it benefits R in general. In any case, there really aren't any performance problems in fungot at the moment. < 1267214703 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they say that dungeoneers prefer dark chocolate. the glare of the servants of the lords of death. you know what that is so much useless rusted scrap in no time at all.) had told him: " mirror, mirror: " you have a rocky road ahead of them must have brought it with blood a-drip at vlana's feet. < 1267214726 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That fact about yetis sounds a bit suspicious. < 1267214731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nurses are trained to touch it. < 1267214738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that some yetis are full of hot air. < 1267214749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, it's the sort of thing that sounds true. < 1267214756 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in NetHack, it is true < 1267214802 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be; it's from rumors.tru. < 1267214885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I know a lot about NetHack; I can normally guess whether a rumor is true or false < 1267214915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though I'm not a very NetHacky person, I've actually acquired a fair amount of passive knowledge by osmosis from r.g.r.n. < 1267214916 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that cockatrice-related false rumor? < 1267214930 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you read rgrn? < 1267214940 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: there's one about wielding a lizard corpse against a trice < 1267214949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it. < 1267214951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes. In fact, I noticed one of your posts there recently. < 1267214976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's two others: "A cockatrice corpse is guaranteed to be untainted!" + "A dead cockatrice is just a dead lizard." < 1267215008 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you read rgrn < 1267215015 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you did play nethack < 1267215018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you not < 1267215037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shakes his head at all of USENET < 1267215039 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's full of sad, sad people < 1267215073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who dedicated their life to nethack, think they're the ultimate authority on it, and actually aren't even very good < 1267215092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rgrn's tactical advice isn't so much bad, as twenty years out of date < 1267215104 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the newsgroup as a whole has been getting better < 1267215135 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also haven't felt the tone to be pompous at all, which is what your description makes it sound like. < 1267215179 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pompous people are the devteam, and they hardly ever say anything < 1267215256 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267215295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: No clue, since I don't know how much it benefits R in general. In any case, there really aren't any performance problems in fungot at the moment. < 1267215296 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sorry, no one knows why medusa stands alone in the kidnappings and raids the inhabitants of the temples. filling the gaps between these strips and the outside, he enjoys visiting the earth, a grasping tail, hooves, or yeti, is outside it; and so he returned to practice, teach, and thieves. he has been suggested that it was a pretty fair shot with a wand of vibration might bring the whole course of known life from the < 1267215304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much are continuous reads? < 1267215308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how much is random access < 1267215324 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with rgrn, who can tell? < 1267215326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not much continuous reading at all. < 1267215339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1267215347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you don't use t do you? < 1267215378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in NetHack, it is true <-- how can yetis be full of hot air < 1267215386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what does that actually mean for playing < 1267215393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it means, that if you eat one, you might be full of hot air < 1267215398 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the message for gaining cold resistance < 1267215403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah... < 1267215417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No t there, right. < 1267215418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they weren't full of hot air, they'd be hurt by the cold < 1267215427 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that seems wrong for yetis < 1267215430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm. < 1267215461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The messages are always so punny; your health currently feels amplified for shock resistance. < 1267215488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well since performance was one reason to switch to cfunge for you iirc (allowing bf/ul programs to run for longer), I doubt you would be interested in efunge. < 1267215531 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya < 1267215558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhm, maybe not; the sub-interpreters (bf, ul) are pretty slow, after all. < 1267215568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267215573 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1267215582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'd like to have fungot 2.0 use ATHR; it sounds much more enterprisey that way. I'm just bad at getting things done. < 1267215582 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they say that a potion of sickness. ( funk wagnalls standard dictionary of the sun.... thrice i filled the tub and emptied it. < 1267215596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a strange thing to say. < 1267215599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ATHR isn't done yet < 1267215622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to be enterprisey, find a use for TRDS < 1267215624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts of it works < 1267215628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1267215628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's better than time travel, after all < 1267215645 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267215652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, why not have 2 time dimensions < 1267215656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds even better < 1267215663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two or more of course < 1267215668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go ahead and spec it then ;-P < 1267215676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, first tell me what the hell that even means < 1267215692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh wait, maybe like having the third dimension be the time dimension < 1267215712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so trefunge but every tick creates a new layer and move all ips there. < 1267215720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then something-something to travel in it < 1267215737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about that ^ < 1267215760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were doing okay until the "something-something" < 1267215784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267215790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, rgrn is one huge bundle of pleasantness compared to unmoderated comp.lang.c. < 1267215791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't work out the something-something < 1267215802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, rgrn? < 1267215815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rec.games.rougelike.nethack? < 1267215816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rec.games.roguelikes.nethack < 1267215821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, almost < 1267215827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it roguelike < 1267215828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever < 1267215831 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yours is in fact more right. < 1267215836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, more right? < 1267215840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't right either? < 1267215849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is right. < 1267215851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267215855 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hamming distance is lower for mine < 1267215856 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is also more right than Deewiant's. < 1267215864 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267215866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless a swap is cheap < 1267215871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267215876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267215877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it hamming distance < 1267215881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit distance, whatever < 1267215888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit distance from what? < 1267215896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From rec.games.roguelike.nethack < 1267215902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what? < 1267215906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, I completely unsaw AnMaster's typo. < 1267215912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed I didn't notice it either < 1267215914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rec.games.rougelike.nethack and rec.games.roguelikes.nethack < 1267215923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can people not notice these things :-P < 1267215937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can't spot it reading quickly < 1267215941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can anyone spot it < 1267215947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the different length is harder to miss < 1267215975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Even though I know it's there, I still have to look at it twice. Anyway, right, usually (or at least often) the "insert" and "substitute" operations have the same cost, so yours is in fact more right. < 1267215986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as long as first and last letter are the same, the length is the same, and the general word shape (tall/low letters) is the same, you can easily read a text with some swapped letters. < 1267216010 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"NRGR"4( < 1267216011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for low swappedness it is hard to notice even < 1267216018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read it often enough, yes, but I still notice every typo < 1267216025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what the heck would that do ^_^ < 1267216033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as in, spec it! < 1267216062 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: work < 1267216082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, possibly it should make it so that the IP can have it's stack values identified on exit? < 1267216100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F posts a YAFAP to rgrn, while A posts a YAAP; M posts a YAFM, D posts a YAAD, and S a YASD. All with completely made-up details, of course. And so on. < 1267216127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAFM and YAAD? < 1267216137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yet Another Funny Message, and Yet Another Annoying Death. < 1267216141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, YAFAP? < 1267216145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright < 1267216151 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yet Another First Ascension Post. < 1267216155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267216157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Generally you should call F only once. :p < 1267216177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I never posted my first ascension < 1267216200 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267216212 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit debatable if it's "Yet Another (First Ascension) Post", or "Yet Another First (Ascension Post)". < 1267216218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the latter, you could do it even later. < 1267216225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how so? < 1267216233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1267216240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misunderstood what "later" was relative here < 1267216269 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't post my first ascension :( < 1267216288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even post a YAFAP-2 of some non-first ascension, followed by a YAFAP-1 of the first ascension. < 1267216291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't ascended so I'm still good < 1267216382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how far have you reached? < 1267216386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in nethack < 1267216392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mooz has a YAFAP in rgrn, for those who remember/know the person. < 1267216406 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not far < 1267216412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember < 1267216421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not very special, but first ascensions aren't so often. < 1267216444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've completed the quest once. < 1267216491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've got as far as receiving it < 1267216503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, work harder at it! < 1267216513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not exactly a priority for me ;-P < 1267216528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You finished ADOM and Angband and everything else too? < 1267216555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be difficult to ascend < 1267216557 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's quite easy < 1267216560 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1. ignore rgrn < 1267216564 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2. join #nethack < 1267216577 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 3. play on NAO and ask people for help when necessary < 1267216596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's hardly proper < 1267216613 0 :daef!~david.zot@85-127-188-117.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1267216633 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi there < 1267216643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1267216646 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just played around with brainf*** the first time < 1267216673 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :threw together a bunch of characters that output the current cell in decimal < 1267216684 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the current cell holds the value 123 < 1267216695 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it output's "123" (the three characters) < 1267216713 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now write a program that does the same thing except without messing up any other cells. :P < 1267216721 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it looks much too complicated - is there someone who can look over the code and tell me what could be optimized < 1267216743 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About how long is it? < 1267216746 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: try running it in-channel, so we can have a look, if it's less than around 500 chars long < 1267216747 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267216752 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it messes up nothing - but it needs the next 9 cells to be empty (clear's them by itselve) < 1267216755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! < 1267216770 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you know that's impossilbe < 1267216776 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's EgoBot? < 1267216779 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! < 1267216779 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1267216788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1267216792 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[-<++>]<----- // schreibt die zahl 123 in die erste zelle < 1267216795 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>[-]++++++++[>[-]<[->+<]>-]<<<<<<<<< // löschen der nächsten zellen < 1267216797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind that, where's alise? < 1267216798 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[->+<]>[>+<-<+>]>[>>>>>[->+<]>+<<<<< // der eigentliche code < 1267216800 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++<[->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>] < 1267216803 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<<<<]>[-]>[-<<+>>]>[-<<+>>]<<]>>>>> < 1267216805 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[<<<<+++++++[-<+++++++>]<-[<+>-]<.[- < 1267216808 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]>>>>>>[-<+>]<-]<<<<<<< < 1267216827 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first line writes 123 < 1267216833 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second line clears next 9 cells < 1267216843 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know either, I'm worried < 1267216855 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :following 5 lines do the work, clean everything up and set the pointer back to the initial 123 < 1267216875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You finished ADOM and Angband and everything else too? <-- no < 1267216879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but slash'em of course < 1267216899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267216914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1267216920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IVAN. < 1267216928 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: it looks relatively standard, and there's nothing obviously wrong < 1267216933 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267216945 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the [>>>] do? seeing an unbalanced loop makes me suspicious, as that code shouldn't really need one < 1267216954 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought there must be a easier way to do it < 1267216982 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267216986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, there are of course a million possible innocent explanations *knock on wood* < 1267216986 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: the [>>>] is from my divide-code - when the dividend got zero the [>>>] ensures that the pointer points to an emtpy cell < 1267217005 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1267217010 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needed for my version of an if(is_zero... < 1267217015 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :division in BF is painful < 1267217020 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know anything better < 1267217030 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first approach was this one (works!) < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< :clear < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>->+<[>>>+>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]+ :code < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[>[-]<[-]]>[<<+<[<+>-]>>>-]<<<<<-]> < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<+>>-]<<< < 1267217041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure there's a better division algorithm on the Esolang wiki. < 1267217043 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an article on brainfuck algos on our wiki < 1267217051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[e:Brainfuck algorithms]] IIRC < 1267217055 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my second one is this one < 1267217056 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< < 1267217056 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]> < 1267217056 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-<<+>>]>[-<<+>>]<<< < 1267217060 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms < 1267217064 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second one got the unbalanced loop < 1267217074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1267217086 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's much shorter and doesnt dup around the values from a to b,c and back... < 1267217088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a division algo by Calamari there that only needs four temporaries < 1267217099 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need five... damn < 1267217100 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267217109 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which is balanced < 1267217127 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where can i find it - so i can study it? < 1267217137 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the link above < 1267217141 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w8 < 1267217146 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only need 4 < 1267217154 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cells 0 and 1 are the values < 1267217158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I forgot to finish speaking. < 1267217159 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IVAN. < 1267217164 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 and 3 get the result < 1267217167 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is an iter vehemens ad necem. < 1267217174 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 and 5 are tmp < 1267217182 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where 4 always stays zero < 1267217198 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i only "invent" cells 2345 < 1267217203 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are 4 tmp cells < 1267217273 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot find a link... *scrollscroll* < 1267217326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms < 1267217329 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, I've repeated it for you < 1267217331 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1267217399 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267217422 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267217473 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-22-38.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267217499 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the version on the wiki much looks like my first approach < 1267217511 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my second one is definetly faster < 1267217526 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one may optimise better, because it probably optimises into polynomials < 1267217531 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the temp's screw me up a bit - i have to translate it to bffirst < 1267217755 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267217837 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what do you mean? < 1267217855 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: some BF interps are less naive than others < 1267217859 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some can be very fast indeed < 1267217877 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking, a highly optimised BF interp is faster on balanced loops than unbalanced loops, due to the "polynomial optimisation" < 1267217989 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267218005 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i now translated the version from the wiki: < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>>+<<-]>>[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-] < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[>+<<-[>>[-]>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[< < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-[<<<->>>[-]]+>-]<-]<<<+>>] < 1267218012 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if we have any BF optimisation experts here, though < 1267218025 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise knows a bit about it, but he's missing atm < 1267218026 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this one is my first approach: < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>->+<[>>>+>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]+ < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[>[-]<[-]]>[<<+<[<+>-]>>>-]<<<<<-]> < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<+>>-]<<< < 1267218039 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite identical < 1267218043 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they really look nearly the same :) < 1267218055 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algo looks different, although that might just be an illusion < 1267218080 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just watched them @ work - seen to work quite the same way < 1267218118 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my last two loops are just to get the results in the place i want them < 1267218127 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they dont really "do" anything < 1267218183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not sure if we have any BF optimisation experts here, though <-- as in bf compiler optimising < 1267218190 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267218190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in golfing bf code? < 1267218195 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, compiler optimising < 1267218197 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Might the "polynomial opt" have to do with the fact that you can precalculate all the offsets from the position where the loop begins? < 1267218201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some of the compiler optimising stuff < 1267218207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither Calamari nor Keymaker's here, though < 1267218208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir is the expert on it < 1267218208 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's it < 1267218213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1267218214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then change loops into multiplications < 1267218219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ooh, right < 1267218222 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: OK... but I don't see what's "polynomial" about it :) < 1267218225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, remember esotope-bfc < 1267218228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ok < 1267218232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because the multiplications turn into more multiplications < 1267218236 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you end up with polynomials < 1267218244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, quite < 1267218273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. It's 9 PM in ehirdland. < 1267218278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what's up? < 1267218287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this looks like dire news indeed < 1267218298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1267218310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, about ehird not being here at this time < 1267218321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... < 1267218355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION awaits the homing pigeon w/fragment of parchment tied to leg < 1267218380 0 :|MigoMipo|!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267218434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1267218451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't quite get the reference < 1267218510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no no, it will be a bottle with a message inside < 1267218578 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267218583 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1267218624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, anyway, what is the optimising stuff you need help with there? < 1267218704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and yes, unbalanced loops really reduces the possibilities to optimise an expressions < 1267218717 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1267218726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I don't think it ever optimises to integer division, because that is very tricky < 1267218731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication yes < 1267218782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, where was your program code? (pastebin please so it is easy to download) I want to see how the bf-compiler I wrote optimises it < 1267218795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in principle you could turn it into a lookup table, since it uses a finite number of cells :D < 1267218827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, interesting idea < 1267218841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming finite cell size of course) < 1267218844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wouldn't it grow exponentially or such? < 1267218852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also input < 1267218863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superexponentially probably... < 1267218865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a given piece of linear code < 1267218870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh true < 1267218879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there is no point in optimizing across input < 1267218884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1267218906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sure there is, of course not for that cell < 1267218909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for other cells yes < 1267218922 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267218937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably want to shift input and output to early and computations to late < 1267218949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well, where is it? :/ < 1267218951 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267218959 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267219037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I need the full program, not just that algorithm, since otherwise it will optimise by assuming that at the start of the program every cell is zero < 1267219045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that likely it will just end up as s nop < 1267219061 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sry < 1267219068 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was sunk in the code from the wiki < 1267219075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no problem < 1267219079 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to translate it to as much highlvl i can < 1267219085 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to understand what he really does < 1267219092 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete code... < 1267219094 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267219094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: put ,[>,][<] in front? :D < 1267219109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um ,[>,]<[<] < 1267219112 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :containing the code to clear - which is not needed in this example - i guess < 1267219138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also it was on irc, would need to remove the [daef] prefix from it < 1267219142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-__ < 1267219144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-* < 1267219169 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, you're planning to run in-between on it? < 1267219172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: silly you, [daef] at start of program is a comment < 1267219174 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what a weird name for a bf interp, btw) < 1267219191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it might infinite loop since [] is a loop < 1267219200 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: at the start of the program, it's a header comment < 1267219203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it made sense at the time < 1267219207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing runs, because the current cell is 0 < 1267219207 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=w9wQAmGJ < 1267219214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes but look, it was split over multiple lines! < 1267219217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, thanks < 1267219221 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np < 1267219251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wth, that ends up like this: < 1267219255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>[-]++++++++[>[-]<[->+<]>-]<<<<<<<<< < 1267219257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when wgetting < 1267219263 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1267219268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete fail of "raw" < 1267219272 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr is your friend < 1267219275 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267219284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, it aslo has a doctype and some headers < 1267219286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe lynx < 1267219297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't it convert HTML to plaintext in batch mode? < 1267219299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION copy pastes < 1267219318 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail... < 1267219329 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, lynx -dump file.html < 1267219337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, the code produced: http://sprunge.us/EQhd < 1267219339 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pasted the raw because i thought it should be ease to fetch from the shell < 1267219344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that one wasn't perfect < 1267219354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I dare say esotope-bfc will manage better < 1267219357 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about esotope-bfc or whatever the better one was < 1267219387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/DURO is esotope < 1267219421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit better < 1267219438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but p[-6] += ((7*p[-5])-1); < 1267219440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is pretty wtf < 1267219448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unneeded () there < 1267219448 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one fits on my screen :) < 1267219453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yours gets it as well < 1267219456 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[-5]+=255 + 7*p[-4]; < 1267219470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 sprunge < 1267219472 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267219475 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's that from? < 1267219476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but mine doesn't use that extra () around that expression < 1267219479 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1267219481 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1267219488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: esotope obviously brackets every expression < 1267219494 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's for the number to ascii < 1267219501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Binary expression) < 1267219502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, in your original code? No clue. both of those do things like sort the instructions and merge them < 1267219502 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1267219505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and expand loops < 1267219507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what not < 1267219514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that esotope doesn't optimize non-relatively-addressed cells into locals < 1267219514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, basically there is no way to tell what comes from where < 1267219529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be hard, but not impossible < 1267219532 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is in my original code? < 1267219538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, what? < 1267219551 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:19 < AnMaster> daef, in your original code? No clue. both of those do things like sort the instructions and merge them < 1267219557 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by that? < 1267219563 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry - english isn't my mother tongue < 1267219585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I mean, the compilers reorders stuff like: >>+<<+ into +>>+<< then into [0]++ [2]++ < 1267219587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1267219598 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okayokay < 1267219599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and sometimes move instructions to the other side of a loop < 1267219612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well, it is very hard to figure out what part of the original code ended up where in the new code < 1267219614 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it doesn't matter < 1267219625 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what i see < 1267219627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show hello < 1267219631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1267219632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show < 1267219632 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble < 1267219635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show hw < 1267219635 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+9[<+8>-]<.>+7[<+4>-]<+.+7..+3.>>>+8[<+4>-]<.>>>+10[<+9>-]<-3.<4.+3.-6.-8.>>+. < 1267219643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1267219654 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since i've always seen bf as "current cell" - i've seen "moving the pointer costs time" < 1267219674 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you "compile" it with absolute adresses < 1267219675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is another (same?) hello world: < 1267219676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-] < 1267219677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. < 1267219680 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt count < 1267219698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and that code produces this: http://sprunge.us/gbXQ < 1267219705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is impressive isn't it? :) < 1267219714 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1267219716 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267219722 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad < 1267219762 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't it compile my code to s("123");? < 1267219768 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's static too < 1267219784 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as there is no "," it should always be possible < 1267219796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, sure, but it doesn't do full tracing < 1267219801 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267219810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically what my compiler did there was: figure out constant values. Figure out what balanced loops with constant number of iterations does. Figure out what output instruction works on constants. Transform those to constant outputs. merge constant outputs into string output < 1267219814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then figure out dead stores < 1267219817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; so long as there is no "," and it doesn't halt, it is possible. < 1267219819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267219821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does. < 1267219825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yeah < 1267219829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to prove whether or not it halts. < 1267219839 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry - that's correct < 1267219842 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old problem... < 1267219846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I can tell you the issue with your < 1267219861 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have known that :D < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do { < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[1]=p[0]; < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[0]=0; < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[1]+=255; < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p+=1; < 1267219867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} while (p[0]); < 1267219869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1267219875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, that is an unbalanced loop < 1267219892 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes - it is < 1267219907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I think it maps to [>[-]<[->+<]>-] < 1267219912 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what my code does < 1267219919 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the first cell is 123 < 1267219921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, unbalanced loops are tricky to get right < 1267219923 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it expands it to: < 1267219932 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :123,3,2,1,3 < 1267219938 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the last one is the length < 1267219944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, that unbalanced thing is what breaks my compiler at that code however. It doesn't try to do much with them < 1267219945 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it outputs the 1 < 1267219957 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :123,3,2,2 < 1267219960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits on clang -O3 -S LostKng.c. < 1267219964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since in general there isn't much you can do. Sure if it is a constant one at the start... < 1267219967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious what code you get out of that. < 1267219970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, from esotope? < 1267219973 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about BF is to let your code move along the data < 1267219985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. < 1267219990 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unbalanced stuff can make things very interesting - in my opinion < 1267220006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well not sure. I think mine managed a few things esotope didn't in lostking, and the vice verse < 1267220021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, sure, but it inhibits optimisation < 1267220036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you could try to track if you could figure out if it was a constant < 1267220039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm curious what assembly is made. ;) < 1267220042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is somewhat hard still < 1267220062 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing i wrote once was a string to number func where you put in "(2+2)^3-3.3" and it gave the correct answer - recusions, paranthesis, etc... < 1267220068 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've never built a complete AST < 1267220069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm curious as to ram usage. I certainly never managed to compile it with gcc locally < 1267220076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I used tcc to test that it was valid c < 1267220094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's because GCC uses *massive chunks* of RAM for compilation. < 1267220097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, in bf? impressive! < 1267220103 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: NO < 1267220104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed. < 1267220106 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*g* < 1267220109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, ah, still not too bad < 1267220110 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in C# :D < 1267220111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clang is about as good at C compilation and optimisation, and doesn't use chunks of RAM. < 1267220122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, only took a couple of minutes to compile. < 1267220126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well I'm happy I didn't write it < 1267220137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I coded C# and well.... it's better than C++ certainly < 1267220140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is all I can say about it < 1267220145 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and made a boolean-tester too - so you could test "2>1" < 1267220150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I hate C++) < 1267220161 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with and,or,xor,constants,comparison... < 1267220163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what specs? < 1267220173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sempron 3300+ with 1.5 GB RAM here < 1267220183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, system runs at 2 GHz < 1267220184 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a quite straightforward piece i wrote because school was boring for a few hours < 1267220211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Phenom II X3 710, runs at 2.8 GHz. < 1267220211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267220212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 GB RAM. < 1267220220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one core in use, of course. < 1267220222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, quite a lot faster then < 1267220240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? why no parallel compilation? < 1267220246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible < 1267220260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do local optimisations on different halves < 1267220263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... *Single file*. < 1267220266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep < 1267220277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's theoretically possible, but not done by any compiler. < 1267220280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, nevertheless I think it should be possible once you built the AST < 1267220286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267220305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the big gains are gotten from telling Make to run multiple compilers at once. < 1267220313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267220332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, reminds me of a sad thing. erlang's build system broke at make -j2 < 1267220336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty sad considering < 1267220363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was trying to run the erlang compiler before the runtime was completely built) < 1267220408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is pretty dang sad. < 1267220422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yeah, I think it was only with some rare configure options < 1267220430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and damn hard to reproduce < 1267220444 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one should think a trivial language should be easy to optimize - but it doesn't seem so... :) < 1267220445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I blame autotools < 1267220462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well, brainfuck is a lot easier to optimise than befunge certainly < 1267220469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge is self modifying after all < 1267220470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2D < 1267220483 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: read about it a time ago i think < 1267220492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fast interpreters yes, and fizzie was working on a JIT compiler for it < 1267220500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did you give it up? < 1267220502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what happened < 1267220858 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just re-read http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge - now i like it :D < 1267220879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that 93 or 98? < 1267220882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93 isn't TC < 1267220889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to finite space < 1267220894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98 can be TC < 1267220902 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: w0ot? < 1267220917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC = turing complete < 1267220924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, there are two major versions of befunge: befunge-93, the original, Befunge-98 the newer one < 1267220931 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267220937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mainly dealt with befunge-98 (implementing it twice) < 1267220941 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference in the definition < 1267220950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty large ones < 1267220959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html < 1267220962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the spec for 98 < 1267220964 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You forgetting bashfunge? < 1267220966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is is quite massive < 1267220976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, intentionally. It was 93+a-bit < 1267220985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still more than 93 < 1267220995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94,32 at most < 1267221002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94.32* < 1267221009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1267221050 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since both, 93 and 98, seem to have limited space - and limited cellsize - the stack must be infinite in length to be touringcomplete - doesn't it? < 1267221054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, remember, it's funge-space was 200x*, that is 200 wide but infinite high. No negative funge-space < 1267221066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, 98 can have non-limited cell size < 1267221076 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: kk < 1267221080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, one of the implementations I wrote is bignum < 1267221086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlimited cellsize and space < 1267221095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And stack, yes) < 1267221098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, of course, in practise that will never be TC on any real computer < 1267221141 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's clear < 1267221150 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i thought cell's were limited in the spec < 1267221153 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i've seen < 1267221176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, not exactly no. Or rather, for the "size of cells" value returned by y I return -1 < 1267221181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to work fairly well < 1267221193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec doesn't allow nor disallow it < 1267221199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the plan is to allow it for befunge-111 < 1267221213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since it isn't forbidden currently it's fine < 1267221213 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to read the whole spec when i'm awake < 1267221227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, there are some inconsistencies in it < 1267221237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is one of the reasons we are planning befunge-111 < 1267221250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey here is the author of previous befunge versions < 1267221260 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really had a hard week @work - so my brain is not really open for so much new stuff - i think my BF code should be enough for today's eve < 1267221286 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nice work! < 1267221288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1267221297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does glibc suck so much? < 1267221310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: Thank you :) < 1267221326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines in a few years writing a new fingerprint, having by then completed ATHR. The introduction would be along the lines of: "Like ATHR extended Befunge to multi-core systems, aims to truly move Befunge into the realm of distributed HPC" < 1267221339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a program that literally *just uses a system call* that still links in 624k of library if statically linked. < 1267221341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this of course scares me < 1267221363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, start files? < 1267221370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or what is going on < 1267221392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 624k of libraries for the function "syscall". < 1267221394 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what's ATHR? < 1267221422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, a fingerprint (loadable extension) for befunge-98 that provides async threads. It is work in progress < 1267221444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is that why my ghc binaries are always at least ~500k? < 1267221451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, the goal is to be able to make full use of multiple CPU cores. < 1267221459 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267221469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, GHC doesn't try to statically link against glibc. < 1267221471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, of course this is pretty insane. But then what isn't :) < 1267221492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC statically links against all Haskell libraries and the Haskell runtime. < 1267221497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: not in 6.12. < 1267221497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267221502 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as long as it works - it's not insane - it's genious < 1267221504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ah well, bloat by any other name... < 1267221512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well parts of it works, parts do not < 1267221513 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(might also be true if something MIGHT work - once...) < 1267221518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet < 1267221541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, http://sprunge.us/MUQO is the work-in-progress spec < 1267221551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiiiiiiiiiiiiiki < 1267221567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a favicon for Hackiki < 1267221573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hi there. Fix egobot and hackego < 1267221576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, both are down < 1267221576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267221581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dobleve te efe < 1267221610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was an interesting reaction < 1267221620 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267221641 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267221658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267221671 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how should i imagine - two threads - asynchrounously- altering their codebase with p-commands < 1267221679 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely unpredictable result i smell < 1267221685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anywho < 1267221689 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiiiiiiiiiiiiiki < 1267221691 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a favicon for Hackiki < 1267221704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, with some medicine against headaches nearby perhaps? ;P < 1267221762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, seriously, it can work out, the fingerprint provides some ways to sync things. As long as the implementation does whatever is needed to keep the threads from corrupting internal data structures it is fine < 1267221785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, most parts apart from the books/mutex thingy works already < 1267221830 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds interesting - i'll keep that spec open and read it tomorrow - after a friend of mine and i try to alter a huge videowall in my hometown :D < 1267221843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, huh? < 1267221845 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to catch some sleep for tomorrow < 1267221847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267221853 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun < 1267221862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh I noticed I had forgot I wrote this: < 1267221865 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice place here - might come back to idle a bit :) < 1267221869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The "extended ISBN numbers" mentioned may be any number in the range valid for < 1267221869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Funge cells. For bignum funges this means the library is clearly Hilbert's < 1267221869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Library." < 1267221877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an incredibly lame joke < 1267221900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst part is of course that I wrote that myself < 1267221905 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dave hilbert - the mathematician? < 1267221925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, yeah, by analogy to the "hilbert's hotel" < 1267221941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is used to demonstrate what is meant with infinites < 1267221948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and infinites of various sizes < 1267221970 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never studied - so i've never HEARD about him - just remeber him from screwing around through the intertubes... < 1267221970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel < 1267221995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well, without a decent amount of math that may not be quite as fun < 1267222014 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define: a decent amount of math < 1267222095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day I want to go to that hotel < 1267222138 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: and ask everyone for a penny? < 1267222144 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you're in it! This planet and all its celestial bodies are room number 1. < 1267222151 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, and all its artificial satellites. < 1267222152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, quite. Anyway that is a strange way to solve "Infinitely many coaches with infinitely many guests each" on wikipedia < 1267222159 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Moon is room number 2. < 1267222169 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Room number 3 is still under construction. < 1267222193 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it already exists, fully constructed. But we're not sure which one it is yet. < 1267222224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought what you did was arrange all the guests in a square on the (infinite) parking lot and then apply Cantor's zig-zag thingy < 1267222234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then load them all back into one coach < 1267222243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it is reduced to a problem you already solved above < 1267222244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267222245 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an efficient way to do it. < 1267222257 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Wikipedia's way? Powers of prime numbers? < 1267222266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, something like that < 1267222285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"then put the first coach's load in rooms 3n for n = 1, 2, 3, ..., the second coach's load in rooms 5n for n = 1, 2, ... and so on; for coach number i we use the rooms pn where p is the (i + 1)-th prime number." < 1267222295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it also seems to suggest some other ways < 1267222313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can also solve the problem by looking at the license plate numbers on the coaches and the seat numbers for the passengers (if the seats are not numbered, number them). Regard the hotel as coach #0. Interleave the digits of the coach numbers and the seat numbers to get the room numbers for the guests. The guest in seat number 1729 moves to room 01070209 (i.e, room 1,070,209.) The passenger on seat < 1267222314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4935 of coach 198 goes to room 4199385 of the hotel." < 1267222321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a strange way of doing it, especially since it puts multiple guests in room 15. < 1267222324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a solution I haven't seem before < 1267222361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how? < 1267222367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh that isn't 5n < 1267222371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is copy failure < 1267222374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is 5^n < 1267222374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1267222376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 3^n < 1267222380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And p^n. < 1267222384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267222390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame firefox and/or xchat < 1267222407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I elect to blame you instead. But anyway. < 1267222419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a slightly less strange way of doing it. < 1267222421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I reflect that blame so you take the whole of it < 1267222444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also reflect the blame, so it forms a standing wave in the resonant cavity between us. < 1267222480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's what the dentist said!) < 1267222590 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets mode +blame to the company with finite workers that wasn't able to finish the roof of the hotel in finite time :D < 1267222697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh no, you've constructed a blaser < 1267222805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets mode +blame to the punk who claimed this hotel was infinite. < 1267222813 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feeds energy into the resonant cavity. < 1267222822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a whole infinity less hotel than was claimed! < 1267222858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: heck, there's even a whole infinity _times_ less hotel than was claimed < 1267222883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there is. < 1267222913 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an entire logarithm... um... infinitely less amount. < 1267222923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: no there isn't! < 1267222926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cantor's theorem < 1267222940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1267222954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A _path_ in a playfield given by a position vector P and a velocity vector V is the set of cells of the playfield addressed by any vector which is the sum P and n * V, where n is any non-negative integer." < 1267222968 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(today's Befunge-111 spec excerpt) < 1267222980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the union of all countable ordinal numbers is uncountable, but there's a countable set that has all the countable ordinal numbers as subsets. < 1267223001 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let me rephrase that. < 1267223010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You probably want "sum of" there < 1267223017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: um not if you use von Neumann representation, i think < 1267223044 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The union of all countable ordinal numbers is countable, but there's a countable set such that for every countable ordinal number, that number is order isomorphic to a subset of that countable set. < 1267223053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think that's the first time I've ever heard Hilbert referred to as "Dave". < 1267223068 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like. < 1267223075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: right, like the rationals < 1267223085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1267223098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a _well-ordered_ such set, though < 1267223099 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how do I know that the rationals are such a set? < 1267223115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: because i said so, silly < 1267223128 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because every countable ordinal number is the limit of countably many ordinal numbers. < 1267223134 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whew. Disaster averted. < 1267223162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: um that's not the argument i know, and i don't see how that helps < 1267223195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you have a set of rational numbers, you can compress it into a set of rational numbers in the interval [0,1). < 1267223204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes. Thanks. < 1267223206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since, if it's a successor ordinal, you have to include itself in the limit < 1267223219 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if it's a successor ordinal, it's obvious. < 1267223225 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the previous ordinal and stick one more on the end. < 1267223250 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a limit ordinal, map the first ordinal in the sequence into [0,1), the next into [0,2), the next into [0,3), and so on. < 1267223281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: the argument i know start with the obvious fact that if you have a countable ordinal, there is an actual _counting_ of it, i.e. a sequence containing all its elements. < 1267223312 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so you can just take the enumeration and pick a rational number for each element. < 1267223313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: hm that might work < 1267223329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267223397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i am not _entirely_ convinced that your method works, you would need it to be a limit of an _increasing_ sequence of smaller ordinals < 1267223427 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you have a non-increasing sequence, you can just toss out every element that isn't the highest one so far. < 1267223450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ... yeah < 1267223486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*starts < 1267223488 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. I am now a constructive proof that omega^omega can be embedded in the rationals. < 1267223531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you need a constructive way to pick a counting, though < 1267223538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which exists, of course) < 1267223551 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are now a constructive proof that omega^omega is countable. < 1267223570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < 1267223574 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, you're an enumeration of omega^omega. < 1267223578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now confused by your anthropomorphism. < 1267223621 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zygohistomorphic anthropomorphism? < 1267223640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, omega^omega in cantor normal form consists of finite sums of things of the form omega^n * m, where n and m are both finite < 1267223643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I am an axolotl. < 1267223653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*elements in cantor normal form < 1267223804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, you can identify that with the natural numbers by using the products p_n ^ m < 1267223815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p_n = n'th prime number < 1267223826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q.e.d. < 1267223846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're an enumeration; you're supposed to start stating numbers. < 1267223846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*products of < 1267223854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.k. < 1267223908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n should start at zero so we get omega^0, m should start at 1 < 1267223967 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you stated an ordinal number yet? < 1267223973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0, 1, omega, 2, omega^2, omega + 1, omega^3, < 1267224030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3, omega*2, omega^2 + 1, omega^4, omega + 2, < 1267224037 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> 0 < 1267224038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 1 < 1267224039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega -> 2 < 1267224043 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 -> 1/2 < 1267224046 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^2 -> 3 < 1267224059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega+1 -> 2 1/2 < 1267224066 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^3 -> 4 < 1267224068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 -> 2/3 < 1267224078 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega*2 -> 2 2/3 < 1267224092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^2 + 1 -> 3 1/2 < 1267224095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^4 -> 5 < 1267224106 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega + 2 -> 2 3/5 < 1267224122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This could get tiring. < 1267224139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^5, omega^3 + 1, omega^2 + omega, 4, omega^6, < 1267224155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it could :D < 1267224171 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should come up with an actual mapping. < 1267224193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my counting is clear enough, anyway < 1267224224 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'll describe the second half of the mapping first. < 1267224353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a way to choose based on continued fractions, which has the advantage (iirc) that if you always choose another number between any two, you get to use _all_ the rationals. of course that won't happen here, anyway. < 1267224409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically whenever p1/q1 and p2/q2 are neighbors, the next between them is (p1+p2)/(q1+q2), iirc < 1267224410 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set a/d = 0/1, b/e = 1/2, and c/f = 1/1. If the list is empty, return b/e. Otherwise, remove the first element of the list. If it was "down", set a/d and b/e to b/e and (a+b)/(d+e), respectively. If it was "up", set b/e and c/f to (b+c)/(e+f) and b/e, respectively. Repeat. < 1267224482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, i'm sure this (and the resulting tree) has been discussed on this channel before < 1267224550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you described my algorithm a second before I described mine. < 1267224585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "A _path_ in a playfield given by a position vector P and a velocity vector V is the set of cells of the playfield addressed by any vector which is the sum P and n * V, where n is any non-negative integer." < 1267224585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (today's Befunge-111 spec excerpt) < 1267224586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm to get all rationals and not just (0,1), you'd want sort of -1/0 and 1/0 at the end, i thikn < 1267224586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267224587 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a scale from "lame" to "inhumanly terrible", how lame is http://hackiki.org/favicon.ico < 1267224589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*think < 1267224609 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: lame. < 1267224625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your scale also included "perfect", it would be that. < 1267224631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm violating the rules just by saying so. < 1267224634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i was hoping for something with an axe in it < 1267224647 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... with ... an axe? < 1267224652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: start at 0, and initially do nothing but add or subtract 1. < 1267224653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for hacking, of course < 1267224687 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What "huh" < 1267224693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yeah at the ends, it's just that adding and subtracting 1 is equivalent to using -1/0 and 1/0 as hypothetical neighbors, isn't it < 1267224722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't get what the point of that bit is < 1267224734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I understand what it means once adding the missing "P" < 1267224763 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Missing "P"? < 1267224781 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, he defines what a path is. There is no point beyond that in that excerpt. < 1267224796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, missing of I meant < 1267224802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but what is a path? < 1267224806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why do we need it < 1267224806 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, that's very true. < 1267224810 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What he defined < 1267224816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why do we need it though < 1267224828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why we need it, I don't know; presumably so that he can say things like "the next funge-space cell in the IP's path" < 1267224835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267224847 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the median-thingy of -1/0 and 1/0 is 0/0, not 0/1. < 1267224851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That probably makes sense. < 1267224872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1267224892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'll need to include 0/1 at the start, then < 1267224897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what are you doing there dividing with zero!? < 1267224898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those endpoints don't give you a defined starting point, but every rational number between them does give you a defined starting point. < 1267224903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without a limit < 1267224910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i suggested it < 1267224917 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: / doesn't mean division here! < 1267224920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why and what does it actually mean < 1267224929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means tuple. < 1267224953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a "formal" fraction, to start enumerating the rest of the rationals in any way you want < 1267224961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, don't you usually write that (x_1,x_2,...,x_n)? < 1267224969 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a formal? < 1267224972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ^ < 1267224973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does formal meahn < 1267224981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but we're writing it x/y instead of (x,y). < 1267224984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, "not informal" < 1267224989 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean < 1267224991 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing "formal" means "pretend" in this case. < 1267224994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it has the form of a fraction, but not the meaning? < 1267224995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, "not not formal" < 1267225002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop it anmaster < 1267225006 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a serious question < 1267225010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267225012 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, that's what it means. Having the form of a fraction but not the meaning. < 1267225021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay thank you < 1267225043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are you doing cantor's zig-zag thingy? < 1267225081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, this is a different way, which can be adapted to put _any_ countable ordered set into the rationals < 1267225090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh? < 1267225127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is this way called? < 1267225140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'll try to find the wp article < 1267225152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works too I guess < 1267225252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern%E2%80%93Brocot_tree i think < 1267225332 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Construct a binary search tree out of the set. Map it onto its Stern-Brocot tree. < 1267225350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for kicks, I thought I'd write enough of a libc to support LostKng.c < 1267225351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, cantor's zig-zag is a lot easier to follow < 1267225367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for enumerating rationals, yes < 1267225414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1267225642 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write down a rational, then interpret the resulting ASCII string as a base-256 numeral < 1267225648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck cantor < 1267225709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how crude :D < 1267225721 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck cantor he was insane and a liar < 1267225725 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set theory is false < 1267225751 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have disproved cantors "theorem" using magic sequences < 1267225776 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain < 1267225784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no sets. there is just a vast sea... of cantor trolls. < 1267225836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some cranks, too. < 1267225860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are indistinguishable by the fundamental quantum principle known as poe's law. < 1267225872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The concept 'path' comes up in the spec a couple of times and it needs an explanation (in wrapping, semicolons, and ' and s and k) < 1267225897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact several symmetries will interchange them, such as turning the sea upside down. < 1267225943 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Which Poe is that named after? Edgar Allen? < 1267225989 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Billy Dodifur Poe < 1267225997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Dodifer < 1267226018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it is hard to determine that, because the law is metacircularly self-applying < 1267226153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there _is_ a poe's law named after edgar allan too < 1267226170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can has LostKng in 92K. < 1267226177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: after UPX) < 1267226308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Any idea how much memory LostKng actually needs? < 1267226311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : write down a rational, then interpret the resulting ASCII string as a base-256 numeral fuck cantor how crude :D <-- wonderful < 1267226355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, ASCII is overkill for that. You could write it down in binary, requiring only a 3-symbol alphabet. < 1267226377 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267226381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no. Try massif? < 1267226390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or unary < 1267226391 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267226395 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two symbols - digit and separator < 1267226404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: massif? < 1267226406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**/*** < 1267226409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wassat? < 1267226410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck teh worlde? < 1267226412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, valgrind --tool=massif < 1267226427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LostKng. < 1267226438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know how many *Brainfuck cells* it needs. < 1267226438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep. But if compiled to C < 1267226443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1267226449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, add a counter < 1267226450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't want to play *every branch of the game*. < 1267226452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : with a max value < 1267226456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1267226470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't want to play *every branch of the game*. < 1267226487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I have no idea how to figure out < 1267226499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shall try to grep for whatever esotope uses for relative memory accessing < 1267226502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need a BF abstract-interpreter < 1267226531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, eh? < 1267226545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've got the C code from esotope-bfc here. < 1267226547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it won't help past a unbalanced loop < 1267226555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, an* < 1267226557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if it even *uses* relative memory accessing. < 1267226570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't, then I can just grep for the largest number used. < 1267226573 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm thinking, abs interp of BF is kind of hard for unbalanced loops < 1267226576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it does < 1267226579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it does < 1267226610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LostKng after optimisation of it through esotope? < 1267226625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I at least didn't *see* any. < 1267226636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you know what to look for? < 1267226644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see how it works < 1267226646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the top < 1267226656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it uses a pointer p as "current" or such < 1267226668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what in-between does < 1267226687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that gives a[2] = 2 < 1267226690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as abs < 1267226690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1267226696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[3] = 2 as relative < 1267226707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man. Deewiant: Does mycology test for y's ability to perform "pick"? I sure hope not. < 1267226718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, it does. < 1267226731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It uses "p" as a pointer to the array and does everything in terms of it. < 1267226734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, of course it does. And it's a useful feature < 1267226739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there you are then < 1267226740 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't rely on it though < 1267226753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as soon as it move p you change the relativeness < 1267226763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I can look for actual modification of p. < 1267226776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there will be a lot < 1267226791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, it actually modifies p. < 1267226793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then. < 1267226803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it does < 1267226804 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No guarantees. < 1267226819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to. < 1267226838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only 645 modifications of p in the program. < 1267226839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Um, given that y can push a variable number of value onto the stack, ... how does it work??? < 1267226848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, similar for in-between iirc < 1267226854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around 700 or so I think there < 1267226863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It uses 0y first to see how many values it pushes, and assumes that it doesn't change when you do another 0y. < 1267226878 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Crikey! OK... < 1267226886 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267226898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a reasonable assumption, although I suppose some OS might allow messing with a program environment variables behind its back < 1267226903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program's* < 1267226906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, EVAR? < 1267226912 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "behind its back" < 1267226914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I dread EVAR + ATHR + y < 1267226918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30,000 it is, then. < 1267226944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose some interpreter might also modify its own environment variables randomly but... meh < 1267226970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and gdb to mess with the env vars < 1267226998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." <-- Wow, an actual contradiction. < 1267227023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, a very undefined corner: 16-bit cells. < 1267227030 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267227030 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, I suppose you're right < 1267227035 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267227048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they are forbidden iirc < 1267227048 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Any size works decently well < 1267227056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, 2 < 1267227057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267227067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I suggest -1 there for "bignum" < 1267227074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since well, we don't have "infinity" < 1267227081 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology requires at least 10 bits though, since it's so big < 1267227081 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like how "infinity" is mentioned, but not how to represnt it. < 1267227094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there is no MAX_BIGNUM < 1267227095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a floating-point Funge? < 1267227103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus I suggest -1 for bignum < 1267227115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for floating point: I pitty those programmers < 1267227123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity* < 1267227126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who have to code in it and who have to use it < 1267227132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with extra t < 1267227146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology would probably run fine with a floating-point Funge < 1267227158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, depends on precision < 1267227169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course, a 1-bit wouldn't work. < 1267227174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also division would give strange results < 1267227200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it would < 1267227213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For certain values of "strange" < 1267227240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, strange as in "mycology would probably bail out early on if division didn't produce expected results < 1267227243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1267227250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1267227260 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember if it tests floored division < 1267227262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably does < 1267227334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267227402 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267227692 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267227808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, ridiculously small LostKng. < 1267228357 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many (or some, anyway) bignum systems have a MAX_BIGNUM; for example, GMP's documented integer format on a 32-bit system can't be larger than something like 2^(32*2^31); and for a 64-bit system, typically it's actually still just 2^(64*2^31), which might even fit in the memory of a reasonable system; it's just 32 gigabytes. < 1267228377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might not be very user-friendly to have y return a 32-gigabyte cell value, though. < 1267228397 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 gigabytes, I mean. < 1267228443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would a bignum have a maximum value? < 1267228474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the implementation. GMP's is just a dynamic-length array of 32- or 64-bit "limbs", and the length field is a regular signed 32-bit int. < 1267228611 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267228628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A number that takes 32 GB is a very big number :P < 1267228645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Only 16 GB! I miscalculated there. < 1267228656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One of the bits of the limb count is used as a sign bit.) < 1267228665 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A number that takes 16 GB is a very big number :P < 1267228749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unless you want to reserve the description "very big" for Graham's number and his friends.