< 1267574404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what? < 1267574461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: argh. (0/1)*normal = 0/1 violates my hypothesis that it's an abelian group :( < 1267574481 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, does (m/0)*0 = m? < 1267574493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267574497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what should it be? < 1267574506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, never mind then < 1267574525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I go by my previous answer < 1267574538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does YOUR MOM < 1267574558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (0/1)*normal = ? < 1267574570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well if normal = 1/n then it should be 0/n < 1267574583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267574587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i had that too anyway < 1267574590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if normal = 2/n? < 1267574593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what is normal here? < 1267574595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(2/n)? < 1267574620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: not 0/m or n/0 where m>1 or n>0 < 1267574621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 0/(n/2) < 1267574627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1267574628 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok < 1267574651 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Ruby symbols < 1267574662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4/5 * 0/1 = ? < 1267574673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that matter, 4/5 * 0/2 = ? < 1267574696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(5/2) < 1267574696 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 in all cases, I think < 1267574753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: = < 1267574753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267574763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nat/nat and 5/2 is not a natural < 1267574765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter one < 1267574767 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some Ruby syntax is strange < 1267574784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's just (0/1)/(5/2) < 1267574806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you cannot get everything in the form m/n with naturals if you assume it's an abelian group and 0 cannot be combined in < 1267574807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 0/5 < 1267574830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 0 is 0/1 < 1267574843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/n isn't anywhere near being 0 despite intuition < 1267574854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that doesn't help _reduce_ the number of factors < 1267574892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i expressed myself wrongly < 1267574893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(5/2) cannot be written simpler, afaict < 1267574924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same as 0*(2/5), though < 1267574937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not 0/5? < 1267574984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(5/2) = (0/1)/(5/2) = (0*2)/(1*5) = 0/5 < 1267574994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267575000 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... Ruby uses C++-like syntax for some I/O? < 1267575015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i just done a bad :D < 1267575016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if it's an abelian group then 0*x = 0 implies x = 1 < 1267575040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/5 =/= 0 < 1267575049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0*(2/5) = 0/5 < 1267575052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267575054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/2)*(2/5) = 0/5 < 1267575063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it /, I forget by now < 1267575064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even + < 1267575070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but point is, just as 1/2 isn't 1/1 < 1267575073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter would be correct for a group < 1267575075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/n isn't 0 < 1267575098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. and so 0/(5/2) cannot be simplified, although there are rearrangements < 1267575108 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like my random hash generator? (http://pastie.org/850853) :P < 1267575117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/5)*2, say < 1267575122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: cool. < 1267575129 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, :D < 1267575131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how is 0/(5/2) = 0/5 wrong? < 1267575156 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: neat, but inefficient < 1267575189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also biased < 1267575224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: => 5/2 = 5 by abelian group axioms < 1267575237 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes it is biased and it is inefficient; I wasn't aiming for either. < 1267575238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't like 0/(5/2) being irreducable :( < 1267575242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find some other algebraic structure :P < 1267575246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267575251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1267575280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267575308 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I'm new to Befunge. Just trying out what I've learned. :) < 1267575383 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I tried to make the odds as balanced as I could without rewriting the whole program. < 1267575404 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267575521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i have a sneaking feeling this is all quite impossibe < 1267575524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*impossible < 1267575564 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything is possible < 1267575583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, retaining all the basic properties we want < 1267575584 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything! < 1267575590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no. _|_ isn't possible < 1267575590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: duh < 1267575603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: see that is *not* the answer i was hoping for < 1267575624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be fun to have a complete number system with no undefined operations at all < 1267575641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reals go horizontally, complexes stack on top vertically, and things we had to add to make everything work go sort of spiralling off diagonally < 1267575681 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason 0/0 is considered an indeterminate form < 1267575717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bite my shiny zero-dividing fraction. :| < 1267575782 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives up on TryRuby
< 1267575857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: new suggestion: we define 0/0 to be a daffodil < 1267575868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you are so boring :( < 1267575889 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to work hard for a joke that bad :( < 1267575902 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well if you want to insist that everything is m/n for integers m, n then maybe it would be better to define the operations and then _afterward_ finding out which rules still hold < 1267575912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1267575917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: will you remind me to, tomorrow? < 1267575927 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: please tell me you at least got the joke < 1267575935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you're allowed back on on weekdays now? < 1267575945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm not going because of overriding crisis < 1267575952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you still need to decide which fractions in non-smallest terms are equal < 1267575958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complicated, and i'm going now anyway < 1267575962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully i will be here tomorrow < 1267575963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you guys! < 1267575965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267576276 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267576337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : `translate Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! <-- yeah that looks like Norwegian indeed <-- except that kind of passive is ridiculously stilted for norwegian < 1267576355 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267576418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :passives with -es are much less common in norwegian than swedish afaik < 1267576527 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could of course be stilted for humorous reasons < 1267576979 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1267578177 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267578377 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267579094 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No closures in Ruby [apparently] < 1267579103 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is learning!
< 1267579122 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267579143 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1267579616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, those things don't close? < 1267579822 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methods can't see surrounding variables, but blocks can < 1267579824 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently < 1267580264 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Ruby, there seem to be a million ways to accomplish the same thing < 1267580269 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any given "thing" < 1267580313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby stole that from perl, obviously < 1267580486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see: perl motto) < 1267580703 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267580709 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267580711 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267582123 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is considering running back to his beloved Python
< 1267583366 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267583613 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267584055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or it could be stilted for dramatic effect. < 1267584058 0 :ruhtranayr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267584171 0 :thewolfangel!~mommy@173.160.75.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267584173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it is really _too_ stilted for that < 1267584189 0 :thewolfangel!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267584191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not just the passive, but also the word order < 1267584221 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yet to be known is which movie." < 1267584247 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, at least, looks like a plausible thing to say. < 1267584305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hva de skal se, er ennå ukjent!" would be a better phrasing for that purpose. < 1267584339 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this is just a stilted person. :P < 1267584393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a Facebook status update. "Marianna skal straks se film med Ørjan. Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda!" < 1267584400 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Marianna/Marianne/ < 1267584423 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Marianne skal straks se film med Ørjan. < 1267584426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's definitely humoristically dramatic, then < 1267584432 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marianne skal straks see movies with Ørjan. < 1267584442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's norwegian, not swedish < 1267584445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1267584452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267584454 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hva de skal se, vites ikke only! < 1267584465 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That translated less well. < 1267584502 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what a P-knappen is. < 1267584512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Vad dom skal se, vites inte ennu! < 1267584514 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As they peel look, vites not ennu! < 1267584521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck! < 1267584533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my swedish must be worse than i thought :D < 1267584549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION peels look.
< 1267584557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh skal = skall < 1267584562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or shell < 1267584570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely different meaning in swedish < 1267584612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Vad dom ska se, vets inte enn! < 1267584614 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they should look, not vets enn! < 1267584623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1267584645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no sv Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267584647 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Att se, är inte känt ännu! < 1267584676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly perfect either (well, the first part) < 1267584686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second part actually removed the stiltedness < 1267584712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267584714 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What to see, is not known yet! < 1267585012 0 :thewolfangel!~mommy@173.160.75.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267585029 0 :thewolfangel!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267585215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thew ol' fang el. < 1267585225 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :El Ol' Thew Fang. < 1267585257 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No no, Ol' El Thew Fang. < 1267585314 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Old El Paso, except Ol' instead of Old and Thew Fang instead of Paso. < 1267585397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gawnt hell foe < 1267585445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gawnt" isn't a word. < 1267585459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was close enough to gaunt < 1267585786 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate korvapuusti < 1267585789 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1267585812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en korvapuusti < 1267585814 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slap in the face < 1267585846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Korvapuusti on kanelilla, sokerilla ja voilla täytetty pulla. < 1267585848 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a slap in the face with cinnamon, sugar and butter filled bun. < 1267585890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing that sentence doesn't have a copula. < 1267585896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate kanelilla < 1267585898 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1267585906 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en kanelilla < 1267585908 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cinnamon < 1267585915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en on < 1267585917 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1267585922 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wrong. < 1267585959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like -illa means... whatever case you use for "filled with". < 1267585971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267585974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en täytetty < 1267585976 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filled < 1267586009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en korva < 1267586011 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ear < 1267586023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puusti < 1267586025 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puusti < 1267586034 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a korva is an ear, why is a korvapuusti a slap in the face? < 1267586047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are Finns' ears on their faces? < 1267586052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably more a slap on the ear, then < 1267586064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ørefik" in norwegian < 1267586067 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says it means "slap on the ear". < 1267586078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no fi ørefik < 1267586080 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puhaltaa < 1267586085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Skillingsbolle", actually. < 1267586106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi no puhaltaa < 1267586108 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blåse < 1267586114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1267586123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi no korvapuusti < 1267586125 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slag i ansiktet < 1267586137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en ørefik < 1267586139 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blow < 1267586142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267586146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi no Skillingsbolle on kanelilla, sokerilla ja voilla täytetty pulla. < 1267586148 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skillingsbolle er kanel, sukker og smřr fylt bun. < 1267586154 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Skillingsbolle er kanel, sukker og smřr fylt bun. < 1267586156 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skilling Bowl is cinnamon, sugar and smřr filled bun. < 1267586159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be wrecking it by going through english < 1267586195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skilling? < 1267586215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a skillingsbolle would be a bun filled _with_ the other things i think < 1267586221 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION begins skilling.
< 1267586238 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Kanelbolle er kanel, sukker og smřr fylt bun. < 1267586239 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cinnamon roll are cinnamon, sugar and smřr filled bun. < 1267586240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skilling is an old coin < 1267586288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really not correct norwegian < 1267586295 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Skillingsbolle, også kalt kanelbolle, er en tradisjonsrik bolle mange tror stammer fra Bergen, men som selges og har vært solgt i butikker og bakerier over stort sett hele landet. < 1267586297 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skilling Bowl, also called cinnamon bun, is a traditional bowl many believe stems from Bergen, but sold and have been sold in shops and bakeries across virtually the entire country. < 1267586320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd either add a lot of hyphens, or switch things around using the preposition "med" < 1267586326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The entire country! < 1267586339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1267586342 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Navnet kommer av at bollene i sin tid kostet én skilling per stykk. < 1267586344 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name comes from the urchins in the time cost of one shilling per piece. < 1267586364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en bollene < 1267586367 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urchins < 1267586379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bolle hear doesn't really mean bowl. it means a ball-shaped bakery good < 1267586388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1267586396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define urchin < 1267586398 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* poor and often mischievous city child \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Urchin was the code name for the neutron generating device that triggered the nuclear detonation of the earliest plutonium atomic bombs such as Fat Man, once the critical mass had been "assembled" by the force of conventional < 1267586410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just - wrong < 1267586420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An urchin is a hedgehod, I hear. < 1267586426 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hedgehog, even. < 1267586437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_that_ would be pinnsvin < 1267586449 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a sea urchin is a hedgehog of the sea. < 1267586452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en no urchin < 1267586454 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urchin < 1267586454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there is a good translation for the bakery "bolle" < 1267586454 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely. < 1267586473 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Donut hole. :P < 1267586474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1267586484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's "kråkebolle" < 1267586489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but never just "bolle" < 1267586497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a kråke? < 1267586499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sea urchin that is) < 1267586502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kråke = crow < 1267586517 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A crow bolle. < 1267586535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically crows eat them like people eat the other thing < 1267586610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kråke eat the kråkebolle and people eat the smultring? < 1267586622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no people eat the bolle < 1267586626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the smultring too < 1267586645 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crows eat crow-bolles like people eat bolles? < 1267586650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or specifically hvetebolle, the most generic type < 1267586652 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about smut-ring? < 1267586655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wheat) < 1267586656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, smultring. < 1267586671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A smultring is a ring-formed cake cooked of smult. < 1267586681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lard ring < 1267586692 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cooked *in* smult. < 1267586701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep fried dough rings < 1267586708 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... doughnuts. < 1267586715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's the word. < 1267586729 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same shape, but completely different size and recipe < 1267586751 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a completely different size and recipe but the same shape? < 1267586765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smultring vs. doughnut < 1267586786 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those both words in one language? < 1267586808 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, huh. "Smultring" is an English word. < 1267586812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well american-style doughnuts are sometimes sold in norway under that name < 1267586832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a smultring wouldn't have any kind of glaze < 1267586845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all doughnuts have glaze. < 1267586850 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glazed doughnuts have glaze. < 1267586865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a small flat dough ring, dropped into hot lard where it expands to a torus shape < 1267586868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267586877 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, a doughnut :P < 1267586898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like smultrings are a certain type of smultringer! < 1267586912 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like the salsa is a certain type of la salsa. < 1267586917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic so not all american doughnuts conform to the norwegian stereotype of them :) < 1267586945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.voodoodoughnut.com/ < 1267586973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some are rings and glazed, some are rings and not glazed, some are circular but not rings, some are a rounded box with dimension ratio approximately 4:2:1. < 1267586981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The non-ring ones are all filled with something; none of the ring ones are. < 1267586992 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well that's just not true. < 1267587011 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course not. There's no law of physics requiring there to be filling in a non-ring doughnut. < 1267587013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maple bars are not rings, and are not filled. < 1267587028 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that it never happens that way. < 1267587034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.holmstad.no/ on the right are typical smultringer < 1267587044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Except for ALL THE FUCKING TIME. < 1267587064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You must have the worst doughnut shops in existence :P < 1267587081 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those smultringer look slightly different from our typical non-chocolate unglazed smultringer. < 1267587087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very plain, like most traditional norwegian bakery < 1267587095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I've never even seen an actual doughnut shop, I think. < 1267587101 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tsk tsk* < 1267587111 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those smultringer remind me of Twinkies and onion rings. < 1267587139 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We would call those "plain doughnuts" < 1267587143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess onion rings are the same except with onions as well inside < 1267587143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're popular with coffee. < 1267587162 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you call those things on the left? Fruktpizzaer? < 1267587184 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fruit pizza"? :P < 1267587204 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, "frukt" means "ear", and "pizza" means "slap". < 1267587205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION coughs.
< 1267587206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly i don't know < 1267587222 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps uorygl's ear
< 1267587231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _would_ seem a reasonable norw. name for it < 1267587254 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.voodoodoughnut.com/doughnuts/bacon_maple_bar.jpg <-- the greatest doughnut ever conceived. Full stop. < 1267587258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well assume that was pizza underneath, i suspect it's actually something sweeter < 1267587262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*assuming < 1267587280 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-150-114.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267587284 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call anything a pizza as long as it's a slab of dough with stuff on it. < 1267587309 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even frukt. < 1267587315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then Japan has some nasty things to show you. < 1267587319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, an iced cake is a pizza :P < 1267587326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cake is not a slab. < 1267587332 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A short cake is. < 1267587338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A shortcake, even. < 1267587344 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a really short cake, then... < 1267587357 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yeah, it's a pizza. < 1267587362 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strawberry shortcake is DEFINITELY a kind of pizza by your definition. < 1267587386 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My strawberry shortcake never consists of strawberries and whipped cream on a short cake. < 1267587405 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's strawberries and whipped cream and chopped-up biscuits tossed together. < 1267587413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting the idea that my cuisine is strictly inferior to yours. < 1267587425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly? Yes. < 1267587445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shortcake is often, but not always, short and round ... it can also be tall and round, or even not round probably :P < 1267587450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is America -- the country of the pizza bagel. < 1267587455 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*barf* < 1267587461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267587477 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I think an open-faced sandwich would qualify as a pizza under my definition. < 1267587515 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, shalom and ciao) < 1267587546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I figured that since bread slices are sliced, they wouldn't qualify as a slab of dough, since they were in fact a loaf of dough, cut into a slab of bread. < 1267587549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An open-faced smörgås. < 1267587576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is true. < 1267587594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit all this food talk made me forget to eat -> < 1267587612 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would have used an apostrophe, but I am currently using a Norwegian keyboard with no easy access to apostrophes.) < 1267587630 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I know why people use acute accents as apostrophes. < 1267587635 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It´s easier on some keyboards. < 1267587807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you are actually in norway? < 1267587856 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just used a Norwegian keyboard layout. < 1267587858 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Briefly. < 1267587863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the apostrophe is just left of the return key, btw < 1267587883 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here in Norway, that is an æ instead of an apostrophe. < 1267587887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the right of æ < 1267587901 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. There isn't a key in between that and return. < 1267587921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267587929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My home row: asdfghjkløæ < 1267587929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What sort of freakish anti-coding keyboard do you have? < 1267587943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkløæ' < 1267587946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who uses a non-ASCII keyboard for coding? < 1267587965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese people do. < 1267587965 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what, do you have an extra key in that row? < 1267587973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would seem < 1267587976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Crazy Ruby-zealots < 1267587981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, their keyboard is QWERTY with a few extra buttons to control the IME. < 1267587988 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A spammer discovered my hometown < 1267588002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may appear that i have an entire column of convenient accent-making keys there < 1267588007 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got a spam claiming to be from the public library of my hometown < 1267588020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible they were guessing. < 1267588022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've pretty much got one set up right now. < 1267588035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though with bindings instead of actual buttons) < 1267588036 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it wasn't spam, hm < 1267588061 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION counts the keys on his keyboard.
< 1267588077 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :105 < 1267588083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Savant. < 1267588095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: although changing to EN layout is as simple as pushing alt-right shift. which i don't think i've ever done on purpose, except to undo after doing it accidentally :D < 1267588113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does so now
< 1267588122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fourteen keys in the function row, fourteen in the number row, fourteen in the upper row, thirteen in the home row, twelve in the lower row, eleven in the space row. < 1267588161 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I could find more keys if I looked hard enough. < 1267588183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Wait, you code with that horrifying layout? < 1267588191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seventeen, fifteen, fifteen, fifteen, fourteen, twelve < 1267588193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Brackets* are on Alt-Gr! < 1267588198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i don't code that much < 1267588217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've never typed for that kind of speed anyway < 1267588224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also looks mildly annoying for English text in general. < 1267588267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a laptop keyboard, so no numpad < 1267588347 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a lot more keys than I do. < 1267588413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My top row: Esc, F1-12, eject. Next: `, 1-0, -, =. Next: Tab, q-p, [, ], \. Next: Caps lock: a-l, ;, ', return. Next: shift, z-m, ,, ., /, shift. Next: Fn, control, option, command, space, command, option, arrow keys. < 1267588430 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION counts how many of those are for printable characters.
< 1267588475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :48. < 1267588500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :command means it's apple layout? < 1267588520 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267588526 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hands out barf bags.
< 1267588576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a lot of the extra keys on the right side are things that would usually be on the numpad, just strewn about a bit < 1267588611 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like home, page up, page down, end, insert, delete? < 1267588616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267588627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the forbidden sysrq and break. < 1267588632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267588718 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, it's kind of annoying that there isn't any obvious separation between operating system keyboard shortcuts and application keyboard shortcuts. < 1267588723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SysRq is actually useful. < 1267588728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... In Linux. < 1267588741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Magic SysRq) < 1267588981 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question. Does (http://pastie.org/851114) generate statistically-pseudorandom integers in range of 0-255? < 1267589028 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just modified one I found in the list of Bef sources on the Cat's-Eye site. < 1267589086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on determining whether something is statistically pseudorandom, i defer to the actual experts. < 1267589127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, isn't the first rule of pseudorandom generators _not_ to try to roll your own. < 1267589142 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have much of a choice in Bef. < 1267589179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean algorithm, not actual implementation. < 1267589198 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a solid algorithm. < 1267589211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267589237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i'll sidle away carefully and leave it to the actual _befunge_ experts :D < 1267589239 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "statistically pseudorandom" mean? < 1267589256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it passes some common statistical tests, i presume < 1267589258 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It basically takes rolls on 0-128, then adds it to 0-64, then adds it to 0-32, etc... < 1267589271 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... < 1267589317 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistically, it doesn't yield results that are any more or less biased than the parent pseudorandom number generator is. < 1267589407 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like it is, but I just can't make sense of why there is a 1 following the set. That would make the range from 0 to 256, which is just wrong. < 1267589430 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that 0 is a possible outcome. < 1267589459 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test it! < 1267589551 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll test it with the original. < 1267590522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like creating yet another billiard ball language. < 1267590527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll call it YABBL. < 1267590700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you are just yabb'ling < 1267590945 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Ruby interest me so much? < 1267591250 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can help you answer that question. < 1267591262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Ruby interest you so much? < 1267591319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's because it's a gem of a language. < 1267591406 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps oerjan.
< 1267591413 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267591475 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267591592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267592138 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267592173 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267592253 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267592281 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267592320 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But I Miss My C++ Iostream" < 1267592326 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sometimes there's just no accounting for taste..." < 1267592398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YABBL described quickly: http://pastebin.ca/1820626 < 1267592404 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it's correct. < 1267592413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iostream, eh? That sounds like a scary feature of C++. < 1267592438 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::cout << "I've heard it described here as nightmarish." << std::endl < 1267592442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :streams on Io < 1267592454 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are better! They're easier to understand! < 1267592471 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Everything I understand is easier to understand than everything I don't understand, obviously.) < 1267592474 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::cout << "Besides being ugly, which is trivial, you can't determine the flags set on an IOStream, apparently" << std::endl < 1267592492 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that std::endl even mean? < 1267592513 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\n" < 1267592694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "A collision is undefined behavior unless it is identical to one of the following:" <-- i assume you mean to include obvious reflections and rotations of those as well? < 1267592788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and i think you'd want >< ---> <> and variations < 1267592831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would that get wrong timing... < 1267592958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i suppose it would < 1267593772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :千十字をやった！私がやったぜ！ < 1267594919 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu has been kind of buggy lately. a few kernel crashes here and there, random logouts, overheating.. < 1267594936 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's due to my laptop going out the window (figuratively) < 1267594992 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267594996 0 :lifthrasiir!i67Pn7SG@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267595023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: std::endl is '\n'. It is not the system end of line character. < 1267595087 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267595110 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267595181 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267595333 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267595450 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267595488 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267596612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, it's not the system end-of-line character. The endl manipulator is defined to call os.put(os.widen('\n')) followed by os.flush(). You only get the platform end of line character if you're writing into a stream that's opened in text mode, which does \n translation. < 1267596624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's exactly what you said. < 1267596645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. < 1267596653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I must have gotten confused since '\n' was already said; I thought you were complaining about that. < 1267596691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's true what they say about making assumptions; they make an ass out of you and... mptions? < 1267596990 0 :MissPiggy!~none@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1267596991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267596991 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267597117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never make assumptions about asinine assassins < 1267597201 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, albeit arbitrary aerjans advice absolutely agrees < 1267597302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, MissPiggy misuses mischievous misspellings < 1267597303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I shall assiduously assay to assimilate your assistance. < 1267597348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"aerjan" sounds like a pirate oerjan. < 1267597351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRR, you see. < 1267597411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, a bit arrtificial < 1267597582 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrjan < 1267597667 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check out this awesome iPod nano feature < 1267597673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can apply a simple encryption to text, rendering it unrecognizable to the casual reader, by < 1267597678 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :placing it between and tags. < 1267597689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can display text files ... IN ROT 13 < 1267597735 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267597741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst part is I'll bet you're not kidding. < 1267597767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just copied rainbows end onto it, but it's unreadable
< 1267597977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :developer.apple.com/ipod/iPodNotesFeatureGuideCB.pdf < 1267598196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some presentations do not require the interactivity supported by the Notes feature. A public-service < 1267598200 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :announcement presentation or a guided tour through a single exhibit, for example, may not require < 1267598203 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any branching or backing up." < 1267598213 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? they are suggesting that someone might use iPod nano as a medium for public service announcements ??? < 1267598704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There is the older Tanka-style poem where you get two bonus lines (7 syllables each) to try to summarize all of existence. CREDITS" < 1267599174 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267599712 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can also configure the iPod to lock out everything but the Notes area; that way, viewers must start there. Called NotesOnly mode or Museum mode, it holds potential for museum curators, tour guides, or realtors interested in presenting facts about a painting, a historical center, or an overpriced property." < 1267599852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes perfect sense. The PSO thing above still confuses me :P < 1267599858 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not a PSO. < 1267599871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX? < 1267599978 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267599980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Public < 1267599982 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Service < 1267599987 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Onnouncement :) < 1267600001 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ^H's a bit.
< 1267600145 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267600287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ah so that's where MissPiggy dumped my o < 1267600692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267600698 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267600817 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267601581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Did you know that you can store and read < 1267601582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to 1000 text notes with your iPod?“ < 1267601616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck no. i didn't even know i had an iPod. < 1267601621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267601655 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267601667 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever wanted to read the entire Bible? BiblePlayer makes this goal achievable by organizing your bible reading plans. Select the current month and date, and your day's readings are presented. Scroll and select a reading and Audio Bible Player will load and play that reading. < 1267601777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever wanted to read the deluded ramblings of some long-dead anonymous Jewish (and later, Christian, but let's face it, you won't actually get that far) guys? < 1267602095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is especially directed to readers whose intellectual tendencies cause them to question the validity of Jesus' claims." < 1267602136 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.podbible.org/Images/iPod1a.png < 1267602181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm pretty sure anyone *vaguely* sane would stop by Numbers. < 1267602184 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to translate Ruby to Python?!? < 1267602189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not always rambling; some parts are just Very Interesting(TM) genealogical listings. < 1267602191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Guess what it is? A book. Of numbers. < 1267602191 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14] These be the heads of their fathers' houses: The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel; Hanoch, and Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi: these be the families of Reuben. < 1267602192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15] And the sons of Simeon; Jemuel, and Jamin, and Ohad, and Jachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman: these are the families of Simeon. < 1267602192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16] And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari: and the years of the life of Levi were an hundred thirty and seven years. < 1267602192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17] The sons of Gershon; Libni, and Shimi, according to their families. < 1267602195 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I was thinking of that < 1267602195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on and so on. < 1267602198 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's been done < 1267602202 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/whymirror/unholy < 1267602216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly the part of living 137 years is a bit suspicious. < 1267602229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oral history... < 1267602253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But WHAT SORT OF CRAZY PERSON WOULD STICK GENEALOGY IN ORAL HISTORY. < 1267602293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone who couldn't write, and so had nowhere else to stick it < 1267602293 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, Numbers was the most boring one. < 1267602338 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267602416 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text may be sharp, but my aging eyes found it hell to try to read, even for menu choices and song titles. I’d have to pass on the nano just for this reason alone (putting aside that I really need 60GB minimum storage…). < 1267602428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is this guy doing with 60 GB storage.. < 1267602447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the GPS track logs of their wanderings! < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15] And they departed from Rephidim, and pitched in the wilderness of Sinai. < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16] And they removed from the desert of Sinai, and pitched at Kibroth-hattaavah. < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17] And they departed from Kibroth-hattaavah, and encamped at Hazeroth. < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18] And they departed from Hazeroth, and pitched in Rithmah. < 1267602460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't they have put that stuff in an appendix or something? < 1267602491 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's about 50 consecutive lines of that.) < 1267602603 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267602667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The appendix hadn't been invented yet. < 1267602678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor had punctuation. < 1267602684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or paragraphs. < 1267602706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or good writing, for that matter. < 1267602749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, they could have done some refactoring later, after those all had been invented. < 1267602863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But but literal word of god!" < 1267602870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To change would be blasphemy!" < 1267602883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267603141 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267603199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267603200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267604571 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267604740 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267605215 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267605506 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267605833 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-165.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267609324 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267609941 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267614625 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267614872 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267614888 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267614955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267615468 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267616059 0 :scarf!~scarf@147.188.254.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267616061 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267616061 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267618552 0 :alise!~alise@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267618666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/App-cpanminus-0.9911/lib/App/cpanminus.pm < 1267618673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A CPAN client that doesn't suck?! < 1267618678 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1267618688 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm pretty sure a non-sucking CPAN client is theoretically possible < 1267618712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quiet, uses little RAM, and doesn't ask many questions apparently < 1267618720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Yeah, I think my brain has been damaged since I looked at PyPI, gemcutter, pip and rip. They're quite nice and I really wanted something as nice for CPAN which I love.]] < 1267618743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I tested installing MojoMojo, Task::Kensho, KiokuDB, Catalyst, Jifty and Plack using cpanminus and the installations including dependencies were mostly successful." < 1267618767 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is One True Test of this: seeing if it can handle installing TAEB < 1267618775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go for it < 1267618792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You should consider using cpanminus." —chromatic, big perl community guy < 1267618811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is I already have TAEB installed; I'd need to test it on a clean install to see if it worked < 1267618823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let me try to run a virtualised knoppix or something like that < 1267618880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: have /you/ read my apparently-very-whiny and completely flawed in every vway critique of files? :P < 1267618884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*way < 1267618885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't < 1267618887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm interested < 1267618890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html < 1267618898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh at the URL < 1267618909 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, that's narrow < 1267618919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 words per line. it's actually best < 1267618920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thar < 1267618932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(backed up by studies and shizz :|) < 1267618935 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loads in w3m
< 1267618940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1267618945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked hard on making sure it had a vertical rhythm! < 1267618946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267618948 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your obnoxious styling doesn't affect my reading < 1267618995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Anything from 45 to 75 characters is widely regarded as a satisfactory length of line for a single-column page set in a serifed text face in a text size. The 66-character line (counting both letters and spaces) is widely regarded as ideal. For multiple column work, a better average is 40 to 50 characters.” < 1267619008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently 66 chars is more like 33em < 1267619021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :66ex? < 1267619045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an ex is not a character :P < 1267619051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway 66 chars ~= 10 words iirc < 1267619056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's presumably a guide for printed text, that doesn't take into account vertical scrolling < 1267619066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh i forgot you have no mousewheel < 1267619069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol sucks to be you < 1267619071 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh darn, ex was height not width < 1267619079 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have three mousewheels < 1267619084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but none of them work, presumably < 1267619093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, they're one of the few things that do < 1267619104 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, the pain is having to interact with the computer at all while I'm reading < 1267619113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you'll miss out on all my wonderful whiny-italics if you use w3m < 1267619118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least just turn styles off in a graphical browser! :-P < 1267619120 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I won't, it underlines instead < 1267619130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not the same :( :p < 1267619170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite disappointed that nobody's spotted my diæresis < 1267619187 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reëncode < 1267619190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, right next to it I have a ' in place of a ’ < 1267619203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too busy thinking how cool I am for having a diæresis i guess :) < 1267619237 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: your comments about representation reminded me of something I'm doing in RL < 1267619238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so used to them that I didn't really realize it was special < 1267619253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was explaining to a non-programmer the difference between communication formats and formats you actually operate on < 1267619258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What? Nobody uses the diæresis! < 1267619264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PNG is a good format for transmitting an image file to someone else, but it's a bad format for storage in memor < 1267619266 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*memory < 1267619272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I use them whenever I remember to < 1267619281 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably, the argument to make is that in-memory formats are better for storing on a disk than communication formats < 1267619295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And whenever it's not a bad idea < 1267619297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On the other hand, compressed formats take up less disk space...) < 1267619304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Where is it a bad idea? < 1267619314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It, of course, depends on the use case. < 1267619318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267619333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly, uncompressed XML is a bad format to store files in < 1267619343 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be an ideal format for communicating them, but not for storage < 1267619351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/rxml.php < 1267619356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: With English teachers who don't like that kind of trickery, or people who aren't good enough at English to be anything other than confused by it < 1267619361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DISAGREE STRONGLY ^_^ < 1267619373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Trickery? Bah! Beats the unsightly -. < 1267619382 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I suspect Gregor was joking in that page < 1267619386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "reencode" just looks really awkward, like "noone". < 1267619393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noöne < 1267619401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody ;-P < 1267619407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. < 1267619416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, swapping mouse buttons is really inconsistent < 1267619422 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, it swaps on mice but not on the touchpad < 1267619430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what if you have a ü or similar non-English letter, and it should have a diaresis? < 1267619433 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the buttons don't seem to be swapped inside (k)qemu < 1267619434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even é < 1267619441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*diæresis < 1267619453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you don't diaeresize it < 1267619458 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use ü̈ < 1267619459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :üü :-) < 1267619462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :é¨é < 1267619468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter needs to be a combining char :/ < 1267619479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :é̈ < 1267619480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2XwN_oQ_Yo OBABO talks to SPACE < 1267619484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: beautiful < 1267619500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_̈< < 1267619519 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it renders rather badly in this client < 1267619521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obama loves the word guys < 1267619523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ditto :-D < 1267619543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was just a normal ë at a glance < 1267619599 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the package manager on knoppix? < 1267619606 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I threw up a VM, in order to test CPANMINUS < 1267619608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has none < 1267619612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based on debian < 1267619613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it has apt-get < 1267619617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably won't work < 1267619620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knoppix "includes everything" < 1267619634 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and happened to use the ICFP2008 iso, as I had it handy < 1267619635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the lamest of linux distros :P < 1267619667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has apt-get, yes < 1267619672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:08:43 * Sgeo__ is considering running back to his beloved Python < 1267619672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's shit too :) < 1267619683 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sudo works without a password, which is handy due to me having no idea what the password should be otherwise < 1267619724 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it was trying to use debian.uchicago.edu as a repo, and failed < 1267619737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use an ubuntu livecd or sth :P < 1267619746 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, isn't online < 1267619811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:36:02 Strawberry shortcake is DEFINITELY a kind of pizza by your definition. < 1267619811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i lol'd irl. qrx dns < 1267619827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(19:36:53 I'm getting the idea that my cuisine is strictly inferior to yours.) < 1267619881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:43:27 wait, you are actually in norway? < 1267619882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is just desperate for a friend < 1267620033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, kqemu is rather slow on a netbook < 1267620048 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or knoppix is, but I'm guessing it's the emulation that's causing the issues < 1267620057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no virtualisation < 1267620062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's emulating < 1267620067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kqemu virtualises to some extent < 1267620072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but your CPU can't < 1267620074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost certainly < 1267620075 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267620079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what cpu is it? < 1267620087 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those ultra-low-power ones < 1267620094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ULV stuff? < 1267620103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is handy, because I've been running this on the battery for around 3 hours already < 1267620115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel® Virtualization Technology (VT-x) Yes < 1267620115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for core 2 solo ULV SU3500 < 1267620129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you have a different cpu or it's actually just really slow < 1267620136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wow 3 hours :P < 1267620164 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's a U2700 < 1267620174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get core 2 duos on a 17" 1920x1200 screen and ~7 hours of battery life if you're not stressing it on the macbook pros... they /did/ patent the battery technology though :P < 1267620180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn patents! < 1267620224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: huh it's a pentium (apparently) < 1267620229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no relation to the pentium line tho < 1267620234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel® Virtualization Technology (VT-x) No < 1267620235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it has the pentium trademark on it < 1267620236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No virtualisation. < 1267620246 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"intel Pentium inside " < 1267620246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL SUX 2 B U < 1267620273 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, it's fast enough for most things, even large compiles of C++ programs < 1267620279 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if I have to do something else while it's compiling < 1267620325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I freak out every time a computer slows down, so I couldn't really work with a low-spec machine < 1267620336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like I go into "BE CAREFUL IT MIGHT FREEZE" mode. < 1267620345 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I only freak out when it starts swapping < 1267620351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway anything can compile C++, more or less < 1267620354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays at least < 1267620361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet even an Atom could, albeit slowly < 1267620363 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my standard response to that nowadays is to kill X, but I haven't had to do that for months < 1267620375 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when I do, it's normally because I wrote a program which has a memory leak in a tight loop) < 1267620380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've had even ctrl+alt+fN freeze before :( < 1267620388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same, killing X is more reliable < 1267620393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1267620402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ctrl+alt+fN don't work ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't either < 1267620406 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, it's at the stage where it's only processing one keystroke every half-hour < 1267620409 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both work, eventually < 1267620411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reisub probably would but i never bothered trying < 1267620415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to just punch reboot :p < 1267620416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want to use the one that kills the program you're running < 1267620429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well I don't want to wait half an hour < 1267620430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hmm, what about the SAK, i.e. alt-sysrq-k?) < 1267620461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it shouldn't matter if it crashes because i can just reboot and all my work will have been persisted ages before :D < 1267620471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT WILL NOT DIE < 1267620501 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I've decided to have really ambitious requirements for my version control system < 1267620516 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be able to have exact equivalents (not just approximates) for everything in git, hg, and darcs < 1267620528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it should only have 5 commands (you can have more as abbreviations, but everything can be done in terms of those) < 1267620554 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet, I think it's possible < 1267620562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we're ignoring remote push/pull presumably as they're irrelevant to the actual vcs < 1267620566 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a bonus, the design I'm currently thinking about can do what rsync does as well < 1267620569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need < 1267620577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm assuming that they can be implemented the same way as local push/pull < 1267620578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of thing to record changes, some sort of thing to merge two repositories < 1267620583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I say 4 commands < 1267620594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two _essential_ ones, and then two ones to keep things running < 1267620598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: reverts? < 1267620608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merge with a previous version of the repository, duh < 1267620619 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merge won't do, there < 1267620624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there should be no "options" significantly changing how a command works; if you want to commit some files but not add another one, you list every file but one in the commit < 1267620628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously you can have sugar on top) < 1267620636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: merge and always use the previous version < 1267620652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then commit all files but the ones that were deleted in the previous version < 1267620654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila < 1267620676 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'll talk more later, but I have to change connection < 1267620678 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1267620684 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267620684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1267623275 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267623278 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267623279 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623286 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.25461 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623307 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.25504 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623326 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo assquerka > hello.txt < 1267623328 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assquerka > hello.txt < 1267623334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267623356 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably want to `run that; wasn't that the way to get full shell parsing there? < 1267623367 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh "echo assquerka > hello.txt" < 1267623369 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623372 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat hello.txtx < 1267623374 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat hello.txt < 1267623376 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should presumably be something like sh -c there, if you want to do it like that. < 1267623471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, help.txt is not exactly helpful. < 1267623486 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wowowowo < 1267623497 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`$ENV < 1267623498 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623501 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo $ENV < 1267623502 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ENV < 1267623513 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $ENV < 1267623514 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623525 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623527 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.25915 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623531 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sh "echo assquerka > hello.txt" < 1267623533 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623535 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623536 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26000 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623539 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(( < 1267623557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, sh wants a -c if you want it to take a command as an argument. < 1267623566 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sh -c "echo assquerka > hello.txt" < 1267623568 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623570 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623571 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26151 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623577 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cat hello.txt < 1267623579 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assquerka < 1267623581 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267623585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yay." < 1267623600 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sh -c "echo Yay. > fizzie" < 1267623601 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623602 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623613 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26297 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, someone seriously wrote that cube2 in there with repeated `run echo "[base64 stuff here]" >> nonsense. That's... silly. < 1267623731 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`touch me < 1267623733 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623733 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623735 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ fizzie \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26419 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat cube2.base64 < 1267623781 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD/4QAWRXhpZgAASUkqAAgAAAAAAAAAAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgH \ BwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/ \ 2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwhMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy \ MjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAARCAF3AfQDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF < 1267623790 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it cuts output) < 1267623806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The web-browser view is a lot easier for file-browsing. < 1267623817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm fizzie < 1267623819 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, I don't want to be highlighted on every `ls. < 1267623915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably should've reverted instead, but I can't quite remember the revision-specifying syntax for that. < 1267623958 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623959 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ me \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26564 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623961 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267623962 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267623978 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert 26419 < 1267623979 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1267623982 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623983 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ me \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26693 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623989 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't help < 1267624025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert 1431 < 1267624028 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1267624095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revert your mother. < 1267624100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems reasonable, it got rid of me and "me". < 1267624119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24 hours HackBot fetch http://www.securityfocus.com/data/vulnerabilities/exploits/wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz < 1267624119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol? < 1267624152 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did not quite work out, I guess. < 1267624213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kiddie < 1267624264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could consider going backwards to 1424 to clean things up a bit. < 1267624383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is cube2.base64? < 1267624392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run wc -c cube2.base64 < 1267624394 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :61187 cube2.base64 < 1267624396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone decode it :P < 1267624404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267624404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : run cat cube2.base64 | base64 -d > cube2.jpg < 1267624457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be a way of getting a mediocre excuse for pasting a lot of base64 text on IRC. < 1267624470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run y(){mkdir $RANDOM; y};x(){y|x&};x < 1267624472 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was uncannily quick :D < 1267624484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run y(){mkdir $RANDOM; y};x(){y;x|x&};x < 1267624485 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run tits < 1267624558 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`No output < 1267624564 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's almost a HackEgo quine. < 1267624638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A boring one.) < 1267624646 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost boring ! < 1267624678 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267624691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always been a bit surprised that $RANDOM has such a common name. I wonder how many shell script authors have done "RANDOM=x" and later been bitten by the contents of $RANDOM. < 1267624961 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267625059 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a scarf < 1267625060 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a scaarf < 1267625145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wear it around your neck. < 1267625179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dot is the best thing for drawing graphygraphs isn't it < 1267625182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say yes < 1267625244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i can't tell which i want :D < 1267625299 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm a little worried that sudoku getting even brief attention from Knuth and Peter Norvig may be a greater waste of human intelligence than the combined loss from everyone trying to solve them manually. < 1267625327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267625328 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run test.sh < 1267625329 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625355 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define salmiak < 1267625358 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Salty liquorice, salmiak or salmiakki is a variety of liquorice (confectionery) that contains a relatively large amount of ammonium chloride ... \ [13]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiak \ < 1267625486 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define HackEgo < 1267625488 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625580 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run lisp < 1267625581 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625595 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run please, a program that prints "No output" < 1267625596 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does IRP too! < 1267625606 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267625613 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it doesn't < 1267625621 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that's sort-of a Kimian quine < 1267625627 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except not a quine < 1267625630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a Kimian execution < 1267625632 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul . < 1267625633 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1267625638 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ...bad insn! < 1267625638 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1267625642 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's kimian? < 1267625648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: like that Underload quine I just saw < 1267625656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have the program be equal to one of the interp's error messages < 1267625662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah < 1267625666 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in such a way, that the error message causes itself < 1267625691 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf [+] < 1267625692 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625699 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf +[] < 1267625700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible in many languages, but rather depends on the details of the interp < 1267625700 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625701 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen No output. < 1267625715 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :95 +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>+.>-.<.++++++.-.----.+++++.-.>++++++++++++++.>-. [711] < 1267625722 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>+.>-.<.++++++.-.----.+++++.-.>++++++++++++++.>-. < 1267625723 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625738 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf [+.] < 1267625739 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625742 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf +[+.] < 1267625743 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625754 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267625755 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267625762 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd bin && ls < 1267625763 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram < 1267625771 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /bin && ls < 1267625771 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf isn't actually a HackEgo command < 1267625773 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less \ lessecho < 1267625782 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you mean not yet < 1267625782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, cpio? /why/? < 1267625782 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625788 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fungot style < 1267625789 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: they say that you should always be marked `caution: trap door there may be reproduced, stored in a great hunter, few gods can match his fury. unlike the older race of the ring, by michael jordan) < 1267625789 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267625809 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267625819 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this fungot style < 1267625819 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: they say that there are that your wand explodes as you bound across the cold of winter. the christian calendar adopted the same size? salmon gets thinner at both ends." the archchancellor leaned towards him. < 1267625828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you know dot and stuff don't you? can you have multiple nodes with the same value (say yes) < 1267625841 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if "salmon gets thinner at both ends" is a literal quote, I'll grep the NetHack source
< 1267625881 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to understand 4D :( < 1267625887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1267625888 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style c64 < 1267625889 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) < 1267625892 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello! < 1267625892 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: multicolor sprites 53276 ( d01c). bits 0-7 of memory are used. < 1267625900 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: How do you hax the c64 man < 1267625901 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: preparatory routines: none note: might be plugged into the accumulator. to create a < 1267625901 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a quote from Terry Pratchett < 1267625902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do't you think if you were born 4D you could understand it no problem < 1267625907 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a matter of learning < 1267625920 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Do you like this scarf over here? -> < 1267625921 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: 400 next l ( cp/ m(r) 1000 ( hex). if the numeric argument, any computer for everything from lightpens and joysticks to disk drives, printers, and then redefine a particular sprite by means of plug-in expansion cartridges which are the only difference is in a program to display characters on the joystick in controller port 2 to a 1 based on the serial ports. < 1267625922 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 7D would be easier than 4? < 1267625924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1267625937 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: multicolor < 1267625938 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: 10 get junk: if peek(v+30)andx=xthen insert action here. < 1267625944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: 4 is a special case of 7 < 1267625946 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267625946 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267625951 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$style youtube < 1267625953 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1267625953 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1267625955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we don't have a 4d spatial universe though < 1267625961 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, i remember when I was preparing the youtube style < 1267625963 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ALISE < 1267625964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have no way to relate 4d :: things we experience < 1267625977 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello? < 1267625983 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I break fungot? < 1267625997 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: no, it just ignores people spamming it < 1267626007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other people will be able to use it just fine < 1267626014 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello < 1267626021 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mytheory < 1267626022 0 :mytheory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello < 1267626023 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mytheory: what the fuck!! the crystal ball thru the vending machine was the second time, some bastard knows who he is on valkyr. the best 4ever!! britain's really got tallent! what < 1267626025 0 :mytheory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1267626040 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, youtube comments can be really stupid sometimes < 1267626049 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mypeory < 1267626057 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I never figured out what order they were in < 1267626060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Britain's Really Got Tallent < 1267626061 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungort < 1267626062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1267626063 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: u rock dudette! plus he's hot :) the way! i like < 1267626067 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267626068 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Give me a scarf < 1267626069 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mypeory: hi climbdatowerofpower. i get from it without the cod title on it hard to fiqure out what going to do something dumb place to have a custom pc, a eto illusia. < 1267626076 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should update it one day < 1267626079 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was 500kb of comments < 1267626081 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1267626093 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted to make it 1MB < 1267626093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh, you don't need to Markov youtube comments, they're just as meaningless before and after < 1267626100 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1267626103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get some intelligent ones sometimes, but they're the exception < 1267626106 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted a youtube comment generator < 1267626146 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just can't remember where i had it < 1267626148 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta look for sed < 1267626150 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same dir < 1267626363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had an idea < 1267626364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267626369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a blend of zoom ui/graph traversing < 1267626378 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what o you think of 4D? < 1267626381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a graph laid out primarily vertically and each node down you go < 1267626384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets smaller < 1267626393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and choosing one path will make that the biggest and zoom in on it < 1267626399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show its "children" in a sense < 1267626403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: /shrug < 1267626406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimensions are cool. < 1267626421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1267626424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 7 < 1267626459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90 < 1267626461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 < 1267626467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 because 4 is explored enough already < 1267626485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, my assumption is that with enough immersion you could understand 7D as well as 3D < 1267626502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree because the universe is spatially 3d so we understand 3d because we live 3d every single second < 1267626514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d is a subset, we can do 2d stuff on paper, so we can understand it < 1267626518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>3d not so much. < 1267626522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you lived 7D just as much you could understand it as well < 1267626530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't live 7d < 1267626531 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-watnzovaowecmgry JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space doesn't have enough dimensions < 1267626535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just spent one hour in 7D you could get a good intuition < 1267626538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267626538 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267626538 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-watnzovaowecmgry JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was bizarre < 1267626560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you /can't/ spend one hour in 7d < 1267626561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computer turned itself off for no apparent reason < 1267626582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I turned it on again, and it did a fsck then turned itself off for no apparent reason again < 1267626610 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLD NICK TIME < 1267626611 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267626613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just wants some rest < 1267626650 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We live in 3D and what we move in is 4D, the 4th dimension being the line of time. We can control the first, second and third dimension, but we move in the 4th dimension outside our control < 1267626664 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Living in 4D would mean we move uncontrollably in 5D, but we can control the first 4 dimensions < 1267626667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's booted and seems to be working normally < 1267626677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Congratulations Einstein you discovered the most trivial thing ever. < 1267626679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides not to mess around with kqemu for a while
< 1267626704 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love discovering the most trivial things ever < 1267626728 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626744 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267626822 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, found them < 1267626826 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267626864 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the newest version is q7.txt < 1267626867 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weighing at 492 kilos < 1267626876 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267627009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh — Perl's GraphViz module can't output PDFs. < 1267627014 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-20-179.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267627020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about indirectly? < 1267627026 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is Perl, there's probably some way < 1267627044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CBA; instead, I'll use as_text to print the totally rendered form, and pipe it to dot or whatever < 1267627077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dogt < 1267627089 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to understand 7D < 1267627092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl diag.pl | dot -Tpdf -o diag.pdf < 1267627122 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine how much better life would be if we lived in 7D < 1267627214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so i need shorthand for $g->add_node(label => 'foo'), say node('foo') < 1267627225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need shorthand for $g->add_edge(a => b), say edge(a => b) < 1267627245 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can implement nethack in hq9+n. < 1267627255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267627268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does shift => shift have a defined evaluation order in perl? I guess not < 1267627283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Perl5 isn't defined at all, except by the reference implementation < 1267627289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what i mean :| < 1267627294 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it probably does, because => is syntactic sugar for comma < 1267627299 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why is the world 3D < 1267627304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :-D < 1267627305 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, the evaluation order doesn't matter anyway, as that probably parses as 'shift' => shift < 1267627309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1267627319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why is the world quantum < 1267627321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just is < 1267627325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267627328 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be a reason < 1267627332 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not anthropic principle < 1267627335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's religious thinking < 1267627342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're moms religious < 1267627356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d + 1 time d is the only "real" dimension, we have a mathematical model of it and if we tweak parameters we get some random other mathematical models that we find make sense in some way < 1267627359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all just models < 1267627372 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3D is real ehird < 1267627375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just admit it < 1267627375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Darn I actually need sugar for "my $foo = func(label => 'foo')" < 1267627380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes, it is. < 1267627387 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's Perl, you can sugar what you like < 1267627395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but how :| < 1267627398 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although with "my", it's a little tricky < 1267627407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably have to directly inject lexicals into the symbol table or something stupid like that < 1267627412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I'm abusing perl to use it as a glorified graphviz input format < 1267627414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because DOT sux < 1267627415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 7D normal art would be 6 or 7D < 1267627418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :D how < 1267627431 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not entirely sure; ##perl would probably know < 1267627433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing human style 3D sculpture would be considered minimalist and restrictive like haiku < 1267627436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do it with globals, but not lexicals < 1267627440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: darn < 1267627444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh globals is fine < 1267627446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely fine < 1267627464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I even have it so that if I do "$foo = func('x')" it doesn't assign $x? :-D < 1267627551 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you write «*{"${caller}::$var"} = sub { ... }» in a function, then it creates a subroutine called whatever's in $var in the context of its caller < 1267627565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a subroutine < 1267627584 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do the same with variables: «*{"${caller}::$var"} = \$x» makes the variable called $ followed by the value of $var in the context of the caller into the same variable as $x in the current scope < 1267627597 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, hardlink-style < 1267627601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1267627603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the scope exists < 1267627605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exits < 1267627614 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the joys of refcounting < 1267627620 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variables can outlive their scope in Perl < 1267627627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure all of this just to avoid < 1267627631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my $usys = node('usys') < 1267627634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is rational :D < 1267627637 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the variable still belongs to the scope it was historically in, even if that scope no longer exists < 1267627646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will need to do my $x86_64 = node('x86-64') at the very list < 1267627648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*least < 1267627659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: So how do you detect if your caller is assigning a variable of its own? < 1267627680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, in Perl5 that's tricky because the variable doesn't exist until after the function call < 1267627683 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course < 1267627686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use context tricks < 1267627694 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're being called in scalar context if it's $foo=func('x') < 1267627694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267627699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and void context if it's just func('x' < 1267627702 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*func('x') < 1267627704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you tell? < 1267627732 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of wantarray is undefined in void context, and some other false value in scalar context < 1267627745 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can specifically check if it's defined or not < 1267627766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node 'usys'; < 1267627766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node 'hw'; < 1267627766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $usys => $hw; < 1267627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node 'cpu'; < 1267627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $hw => $cpu; < 1267627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ I foresee this becoming tedious < 1267627782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node qw/usys hw cpu/; < 1267627786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$caller" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 12. < 1267627786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$usys" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$cpu" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol fuq me. < 1267627793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1267627800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: nice < 1267627801 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, what's with the $ before caller? < 1267627808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you told me to < 1267627811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$name"} = \$id; < 1267627824 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... that looks correct < 1267627842 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I defined my $caller = caller earlier < 1267627845 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and forgot to tell you < 1267627847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267627851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will just {caller} work :-D < 1267627856 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in Perl6 < 1267627862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :caller . '::' . $name? < 1267627882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*caller() < 1267627889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still t'errors: < 1267627889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$usys" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 24. < 1267627890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$cpu" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 24. < 1267627898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a timing problem there, in that use strict runs before the code < 1267627908 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-165.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267627909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. Yes, yes it does. < 1267627919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solutions are no strict for the section, or putting the code that creates the variable in a BEGIN block < 1267627929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The caller of node, or the sub node? < 1267627938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the caller of node < 1267627941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn. < 1267627949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to put my whole graph in BEGIN. Wait, why does that matter? :-D < 1267627953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it have strict, though? < 1267627955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the BEGIN < 1267627965 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the timing of use strict is begin-timing itself < 1267627970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$usys" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627970 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it shouldn't < 1267627971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 26. < 1267627971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$cpu" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 26. < 1267627971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in BEGIN < 1267627979 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is the use strict above the begin or below? < 1267627983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above < 1267627987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267627994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::usys" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 26. < 1267627994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::cpu" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 27. < 1267627995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ with no strict < 1267627995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1267628001 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's just warnings < 1267628005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't use string ("main::usys") as a symbol ref while "strict refs" in use at diag.pl line 14. < 1267628006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267628015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 14 < 1267628016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$name"} = \$id; < 1267628019 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you want no strict 'refs'; for that procedure < 1267628032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what's the part of strict that breaks the node stuff? < 1267628033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because injecting symbols into another scope is a "do you really want to do that?" moment < 1267628035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the explicit package name bits < 1267628042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to disable all of strict if I don't have to < 1267628056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's use strict "refs" in each case < 1267628062 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe use strict "vars" < 1267628063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1267628067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, vars < 1267628070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all I have is 45987345984359 errors < 1267628073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use of uninitialized value in string eq at /opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.9/GraphViz.pm line 615. < 1267628077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course < 1267628082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foreach (@_) { < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $name = shift; < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $id = $g->add_node(label => $name); < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $caller = caller; < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$name"} = \$id; < 1267628084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1267628090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't $id mutate each time? I bet it's the foreach causing scope problems or something < 1267628115 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks OK to me... is add_node returning a nonnull string? < 1267628124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. It /should/ be. Let me check. < 1267628147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foreach (@_) { < 1267628147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $name = shift; < 1267628148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1267628155 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267628157 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well noticed < 1267628174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::usys" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 27. < 1267628174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::cpu" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 28. < 1267628178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any way to turn those off? < 1267628193 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be no warnings "something" < 1267628197 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure what the something is < 1267628207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should just turn of all strict and warnings for the whole thing < 1267628212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more trouble than it's worth for a DSL < 1267628232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no warnings "once"; < 1267628233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're meant to put a ; after a {...} on its own right? < 1267628242 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: depends on context < 1267628251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1267628251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no strict 'vars'; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no warnings 'once'; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : node qw/usys hw cpu/; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $usys => $hw; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $hw => $cpu; < 1267628253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1267628253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{...} as a hash constructor needs a semicolon < 1267628256 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{} as a plain statement doesn't < 1267628259 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is the latter < 1267628261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but i'm talking style here :P < 1267628278 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't need one < 1267628283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use one after do{ }; < 1267628286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not with plain {} < 1267628289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267628293 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's maybe what's confusing you < 1267628304 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(do{} in Perl is equivalent to ({ }) in gcc) < 1267628440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you reference a variable with an invalid name? < 1267628443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$"x86-64"? < 1267628452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :${"x86-64"}? < 1267628480 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think invalidly-named variables can exist < 1267628487 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there isn't a place in the symbol table for them < 1267628501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267628501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$_"} = \$id; < 1267628502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't barf < 1267628504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about it :D < 1267628530 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try ${"x86-64"}, although that'll annoy strict 'refs' < 1267628548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works :-D < 1267628564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown 'strict' tag(s) 'vars refs' at diag.pl line 24 < 1267628565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qw I presume < 1267628570 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267628577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : node 'usys'; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : node qw/hw cpu x86-64/; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $usys => $hw; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $hw => $cpu; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $cpu => ${'x86-64'}; < 1267628580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not bad. < 1267628583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer to write it like: < 1267628601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usys => hw < 1267628601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hw => cpu => x86-64 < 1267628611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my "node" doesn't let me create duplicate names. < 1267628617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does, but it gives me no way to reference them. < 1267628617 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get rid of the dollars, at least, by extracting variables out of the caller's scope the same way that you put them in in the first place < 1267628619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$noscalar was it? < 1267628624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: wat < 1267628629 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just by using the names < 1267628641 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's probably going to slow the program down a lot for no reason < 1267628690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$wantarray < 1267628692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it wantarray? < 1267628712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wantarray it seems < 1267628714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no dollar < 1267628718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a built-in function < 1267628727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kind-of hard to see how you could do it as a /non/-builtin) < 1267628728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$_"} = \$id if (undef wantarray); < 1267628733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most meaningless bit of code ever written < 1267628738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*if undef wantarray < 1267628742 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, !defined wantarray < 1267628751 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undef sets something to be undefined, rather than testing if it is defined < 1267628758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1267628761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you mean "unless defined" < 1267628771 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless defined wantarray; < 1267628780 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl has an unless control-flow operator < 1267628818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1267628822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I said it < 1267628950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the main thing I want is edge foo => (bar,baz,quux); < 1267628969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $insns => ('nop', 'jump'); < 1267628972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do that with varargs I guess < 1267629020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parens there would screw it up < 1267629033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is edge $insns => ['nop', 'jump'] good enough? < 1267629041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would turn into < 1267629042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just edge $insns => 'nop', 'jump' < 1267629047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $insns, 'nop', 'jump' wouldn't it? < 1267629053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter would be fine yes of course < 1267629071 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, because I don't think you can interpolate a list literal into another list literal < 1267629103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print $g->{"as_$ARGV[0]"}; < 1267629103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, doesn't work < 1267629106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267629165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a method) < 1267629355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267629382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : eval "print \$g->as_$fmt"; < 1267629383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1267629393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I blame society) < 1267629454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/vMnkW.png < 1267629455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot < 1267629474 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shoots Perl
< 1267629489 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it hypocritical for me to shoot Perl while being interested in Ruby? < 1267629526 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[that's probably an.. interesting and wrong usage of the word hypocritical] < 1267629553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is a better Ruby than Ruby. < 1267629570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby is just the bad parts of Lisp, a tiny bit of Smalltalk messed up, and Perl combined. Badly. < 1267629653 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any parentheses abuse in Ruby < 1267629658 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there other bad parts of Lisp? < 1267629674 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paren abuse isn't really a bad part of lisp < 1267629753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: ugh < 1267629761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just made me want to punch you :| don't do that < 1267629912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1267629915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: fodijg firstly it's not abuse it's the syntax and it's not like that for no reason, secondly it's not actually a problem < 1267629924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thirdly the bad parts of lisp are nothing to do with that whatsoever < 1267630264 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll agree with with the first part, question the second part, and note that the third part seems to be a conclusion < 1267630401 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the bad parts of Lisp? < 1267630469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267630485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, the attitude non-lisp people have towards the language is the worst thing < 1267630499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think that I don't really care about such petty things, but actually it is very frustrating < 1267630508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : now it's booted and seems to be working normally <-- did you figure out the cause scarf ? < 1267630515 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267630526 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm currently blaming either kqemu or hardware problems < 1267630546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would recommend that you run memtest during the next night. < 1267630580 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've already done long memtest runs on here < 1267630586 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's the memory that's at fault < 1267630587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, Sgeo_ thinks the parens in lisp are there for no reason < 1267630589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and kqemu? I thought qemu was able to use kvm or something nowdays < 1267630594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it back you are stupid :/ < 1267630596 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, I know the reason. < 1267630601 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is, but kvm isn't installed here < 1267630604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267630607 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that order of precedence doesn't need to exist < 1267630609 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think) < 1267630610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"question the second part" "and it's not like that for no reason" < 1267630613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: HAHAHA < 1267630614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267630634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignorance isn't the problem here it's that you made wild generalisations without knowing things about lisp < 1267630638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but does the hardware support it in theory? < 1267630648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1267630652 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" secondly it's not actually a problem" < 1267630660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, some flag in /proc/cpu < 1267630664 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't say "secondly there is a reason" < 1267630673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could paste the flags line, since I don't remember which flag exactly < 1267630680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vmi or something iirc < 1267630687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all very nice for you to question it but you obviously don't know the first thing about programming in lisp soo... < 1267630723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bad parts of lisp... untyped syntax, needing macros to do lots of things... < 1267630732 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know the first thing about programming in lisp, but I'm stuck on the third or fourth < 1267630734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's inherent to lisp, as far as common lisp goes... all bad < 1267630739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme is mostly good. < 1267630743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(r5rs) < 1267630753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, scheme has those clean macros though < 1267630770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1267630771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, mental lag < 1267630776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with hygienic macros < 1267630783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed that was my point < 1267630793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but having to use them is still bad < 1267630800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to do tons of macros in lisps when normal lazy functions would suffice < 1267630812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was responding to " the bad parts of lisp... untyped syntax, needing macros to do lots of things..." you see. I didn't notice you mentioned scheme between me starting typing and when I hit enter < 1267630825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm somewhat tired. < 1267630828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you still have to use them a lot which is the actual problem < 1267630832 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he'll have nostalgia for There
< 1267630852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but lisp macros are awesome. < 1267630873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the awesomeness is the language's own downfall < 1267630879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1267630881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.there.com/ OH LOOK let another shitty 3d virtual reality < 1267630892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am utterly shocked, Sgeo_ < 1267630893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needing to use awesome in order to get work done may be awesome, but it means there's something wrong in the rest of the language < 1267630908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: hey i disagree < 1267630912 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267630913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types - printf < 1267630916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thar :P < 1267630925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf doesn't /need/ dependent types, they just make it better < 1267630928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fact that lisp requires you to use macros all the time is a problem due to the nature of macros < 1267630932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yeah, backtracking with macros + call/cc... (seen that, think it was from that "fixnum days" tutorial?) < 1267630933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, yes. < 1267630938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's good awesome < 1267630940 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, every time I've been there [twice], it's left a bad taste in my mouth. < 1267630965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 3D has too many polygons for your liking? < 1267630966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267630968 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267630987 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough room for creativity. Although it's not as bad as IMVU < 1267630991 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate IMVU with a passion < 1267631028 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until someone shows me how to get to a populated chatroom in IMVU [and I mean more than 10 people], I'll continue to hate it < 1267631047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm not sure lisp actually requires you to use macros < 1267631061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh time for some AnMaster pedancy < 1267631096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was about to add that it would be rather painful to code in lisp without the macros though < 1267631109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have macros no matter what - "special forms" < 1267631116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267631120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes you do < 1267631123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1267631127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one way you could do it < 1267631139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quote-symbol (list 97 98)) == 'ab < 1267631144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then use (list x) < 1267631165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if (= (+ 2 2) 4) (list (quote-symbol (list ... numbers spelling 'display' ... < 1267631167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm but is ' a macro? < 1267631171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x -> (quote x) < 1267631173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :special form < 1267631178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like a macro except implemented in the compiler < 1267631182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement quote yourself but it's a bitch < 1267631192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oleg did it iirc) < 1267631193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, yeah, I guess you could regard special forms as a special sort of macros < 1267631197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't think of that < 1267631204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/quote-as-macro.txt < 1267631206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote as a macro < 1267631215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relies on string->symbol though which is /so/ cheating < 1267631336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless, you need *some* special forms. They can't all be defined as macros. I'm not sure what the discussion is about, but I think there's a distinction between the two. < 1267631339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes that is as my-quote. I have no idea if there is some way to make it work for the actual ' < 1267631363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x is just syntax for (quote x). < 1267631372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just name the macro "quote". < 1267631383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Actually, I think you don't. < 1267631387 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, actually, maybe you don't. < 1267631399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambda (list (quote-symbol 97)) (quote-symbol 97)) < 1267631399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, it doesn't really follow normal rules, like (foo bar '(1 2)) is valid, but putting my-quote at that point would require ( in front of my-quote, not after, wouldn't it?) < 1267631400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1267631404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambda (a) a) < 1267631404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cya! < 1267631409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all you need is lambda, one single primitive function. < 1267631411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1267631417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x EXPANDS TO (quote x) < 1267631418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at PARSE TIME < 1267631422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, wasn't that type of arrow < 1267631431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It basically relies on the fact that numbers quote themselves. < 1267631436 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "question it" I meant I wanted an explanation >.> < 1267631444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have no numbers and an evaluation rule () -> () if you want loads of fun. < 1267631453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it just isn't an issue in practice when writing lisp code < 1267631455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed, and that is what I thought you couldn't hack in using macros. < 1267631459 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267631467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well that's syntax not macros or special forms :P < 1267631476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And since the lambda calculus is good enough for anything... < 1267631495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course. A pitty you can't do that to the syntax then. We need more powerful macros here. ;) < 1267631499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, if you want to build all of a regular Lisp on top of it you need one special form to define macros. < 1267631502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Reader macros < 1267631513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You could have it as a function but that makes no sense; macros are compile-time. < 1267631533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm, does that actually exist? Or is it a proposed solution? < 1267631543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Exists. < 1267631557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, in scheme? < 1267631558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common Lisp and some Schemes have them. < 1267631561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267631569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm < 1267631570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example < 1267631576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1267631620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, those are functions. < 1267631625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1267631628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So if you have reader macros, you can just define your own mega-quoting stuff. < 1267631638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You won't even need any syntax except for (, ) and atoms. < 1267631652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(numbers can be done like (() () ()) = 3) < 1267631656 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uyck < 1267631676 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use binary for goodness sake: ((()) (())) < 1267631687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus cons, () evaluates to (), quote-symbol : some-representation-of-an-atom-using-()s -> symbol, and lambda (a function). < 1267631707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put a reader macro definition function on top of that (pass in the relevant stream-accessing functions yielding the ()-y representation), and tada. < 1267631715 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: please stop, you're going to accidentally invent Ursala < 1267631718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define numbers, comments, and quote. < 1267631724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada! Lisp. < 1267631727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :D < 1267631732 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no lisp is defined this way :| < 1267631734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, It would be an awsome to use reader macros to implement a language with as much syntax as perl on top of lisp < 1267631737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: BUT < 1267631737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT < 1267631738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN < 1267631738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BE < 1267631742 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I agree < 1267631746 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is much simpler too < 1267631748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be hilarious < 1267631755 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying in reality lisp is a lot less pure < 1267631767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: please stop, you're going to accidentally invent Ursala <-- Ursala? < 1267631772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with that < 1267631777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're lucky < 1267631778 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want to be < 1267631780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why anmaster has to quote so much
< 1267631788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, an esolang? < 1267631788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he only has one line of scrollback < 1267631792 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< AnMaster> alise: please stop, you're going to accidentally invent Ursala <-- Ursala? <--- why does have to quote so much? < 1267631793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in the BancSTAR category; languages which aren't meant to be eso, but act like it < 1267631805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eight Queens in Ursala: < 1267631806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :queens = < 1267631806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%np+~command.options.&h.keyword.&iNC; -+ < 1267631807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~&iNC+ file$[contents: --<''>+ %nLP*=; * '<'%='[ '+ ','%=', '+ '>'%=' ]']+ ~&rSSs+ nleq-<&l*rFlhthPXPSPS, < 1267631807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~&i&& ~&lNrNCXX; ~&rr->rl %tLnLtXLLWXMk+ ^/~&l ~&lrrhrSiF4E?/~&rrlPlCrtPX ~&r; ^|/~& ^|T\~& -+ < 1267631807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -<&l^|*DlrTS/~& ~&iiDlSzyCK9hlPNNXXtCS, < 1267631808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^jrX/~& ~&rZK20lrpblPOlrEkPK13lhPK2; ~&i&& nleq$-&lh+-, < 1267631808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^/~&NNXS+iota -<&l+ ~&plll2llr2lrPrNCCCCNXS*=irSxPSp+ ^H/block iota; *iiK0 ^/~& sum+- < 1267631809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ? < 1267631812 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267631824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, heh < 1267631828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So I think you should just forget about wanting to know anything about Ursala. < 1267631837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah, those are kind of sad yet awesome at the same time < 1267631840 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "Plain English" or whatever it's called count as? < 1267631843 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same category? < 1267631848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Let's put it this way: You create a tuple by changing the operator precedence of the previous expressions (postfix) < 1267631861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would compile into code that looked like ((() () ()) (() () () (() ())) etc < 1267631865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wut? < 1267631875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: at least, the two come to the same thing < 1267631882 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have fun with esolangs, why can't we have fun with supposed non-esolangs that are as strange as esolangs? < 1267631888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can < 1267631896 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise and I have had endless fun laughing at Ursala < 1267631901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what was this language made for? < 1267631906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: numerical computation < 1267631910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LSD < 1267631913 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that you could tell by looking at it < 1267631917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they go perfectly together < 1267631939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then: by who? when? for whom? < 1267631944 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something about J, but J makes me want to run screaming too < 1267631950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J isn't all that bad < 1267631951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J is wonderful < 1267631954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing like Ursala < 1267631958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just.... very terse? < 1267631965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's TWO LANGUAGES < 1267631967 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say Ursala tries to imitate some J concepts but fails < 1267631971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is the ldfkjsdfoweriujWERIOJEIORJ thing < 1267631974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey: You could have it as a function but that makes no sense; macros are compile-time. <-- I submit this is the real debate to have. < 1267631976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all functions are postfix and right-associative < 1267631984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, J? possibly, I don't know J. I have only seen J code < 1267631984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you do parens by saying "parenthesize the last N expressions" as an operator < 1267631993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, ursala < 1267631996 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very incomprehendible to someone who doesn't know J. Python is somewhat readable, Haskell is sometimes somewhat readable, J is impossible < 1267632000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah. hm < 1267632007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, it's just crazy < 1267632013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Only because of what you know. < 1267632023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what J is very readible < 1267632024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am /tired/ of this "intuitive" rubbish based on relative knowledge < 1267632037 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you missed the bit where arguments get implied into expressions if they're missing from the syntax < 1267632042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is mostly unreadible < 1267632043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, types are done by simply guessing < 1267632052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you run a program you have to specify the type to cast its result to < 1267632055 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. ~&B is a synonym for ~&lrB < 1267632056 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, my statement was supposed to be relative to what someone who hasn't seen the language being compared knows < 1267632059 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's the accumulation of 10 PhDs on writing readible code < 1267632061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, where can one read more about it? Plus the questions above < 1267632064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what's that operator that has no formal definitions? < 1267632071 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you could try web-surfing for it < 1267632071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/manual.pdf, http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/ < 1267632073 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'll check < 1267632076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I am < 1267632083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267632114 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an operator that has no formal definitons? *cries* < 1267632115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1267632125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does, they just haven't figured it out yet < 1267632127 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ursala real? < 1267632132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the other language then? < 1267632133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's just a list of special cases < 1267632134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could never decide if it was a joke or not < 1267632135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yep < 1267632137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the other part of ursala < 1267632140 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The I constructor has four practical uses shown in Table 2.2, as well as any generalizations of those obtained by using lrX in place of b and/or any single valued deconstructor in place of r or l. Other generalizations can be used experimentally but their effect isunspecified and subject to change in future revisions." < 1267632147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which is all but "ldfkjsdfoweriujWERIOJEIORJ"? < 1267632148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(~&w/`.)*~+ ~&s+ * skip/7; takewhile -=letters--digits--'.'" < 1267632151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"*= skip/*9+ =]'Address: '*~+ ~&hm+ ask(bash)/<>+ <.'nslookup '-->" < 1267632151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267632152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267632156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those first and last quotes are mine < 1267632183 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single quotes delimit variable names in Ursala, i.e. Ursala "x" is equivalent to Perl $x < 1267632188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and I guess this split is done in a way that makes no sense? < 1267632197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you just intermingle them freely < 1267632198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that was double quotes? < 1267632205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those double quotes were mine < 1267632209 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1267632211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then what makes them different? < 1267632215 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/single quotes/double quotes/ < 1267632217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I didn't mean your < 1267632219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah < 1267632281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go for a while, guys; moving to another temporary residence lulz. < 1267632288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See you soon! ...Hopefully! < 1267632293 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to pretend that Ursula code looks sane to someone who knows Ursula, same way J is readable to J programmers. < 1267632295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267632297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, bye, and that sounds worrying < 1267632298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ASK YOU, is it a mere coincidence that BancSTAR was developed for the banking industry *and* the author or Ursala has a degree in finance? < 1267632322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm yes, that did sound worrying. < 1267632326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: possibly not, the finance/banking industry is a source of some of the biggest problems in programming < 1267632380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both what cpressey mention and what alise said sounds worrying < 1267632559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Given the context, I'm not sure whether to interpret the "in" in your statement as "that can be addressed by" or "that are caused by" < 1267632587 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, I don't think I meant what I said < 1267632597 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would "some of the most problematic programs" work better? < 1267632620 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that works. < 1267632693 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267632979 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267633433 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to look for BancSTAR tutorials
< 1267633453 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I don't think there are any < 1267633463 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any documentation, then? < 1267633470 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267633477 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a proprietary trade-secret lang < 1267633496 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267633550 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267633569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was an example source posted on The Turing Tarpit site. But that was on geocities. Not sure if it was put back up? < 1267633582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geocities :( < 1267633591 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a backup < 1267633603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of TTT, NOT of all of geocities) < 1267633637 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it on reocities? < 1267633650 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or archive.org? < 1267633654 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both were trying to back up the whole thing < 1267633678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/tarpit.html < 1267633681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was its orig url < 1267633697 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, reocities works < 1267633728 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html < 1267633818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw do not assign the middot char to anything in befunge-111 < 1267633849 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... because the befunge-98 spec allows for use of characters above 128 for private-use < 1267633852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, doing so would break the only known case of "values above 127 being used for implementation thing" < 1267633854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes < 1267633858 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IFFI actually uses middot as a private-use character < 1267633860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the middot is used in IFFI < 1267633865 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some sort of registry to declare these things? < 1267633880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, IFFI being a fingerprint for befunge/intercal integration < 1267633940 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267633951 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OK. I had no plans to. < 1267633983 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IFFI's the fingerprint, CFFI's the handprint < 1267633988 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the implementation itself is mostly cfunge < 1267633994 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should direct that at cpressey, really < 1267633999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267634005 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure he knew it was possible to link Befunge and INTERCAL programs < 1267634008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, handprints are going to be deprecated in 111 < 1267634015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well true < 1267634024 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you still need to put something in the y output < 1267634049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "reserved for compat reasons" is the plan last I heard < 1267634064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267634073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handprints are going to be implementation-defined... handprints are *already* implementation-defined... < 1267634109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I had no idea. < 1267634115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, there is no registry. < 1267634124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267634163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, a single entry point at the top-left turns out to be inadequate for embedding Befunge as a scripting language within INTERCAL programs < 1267634172 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the middots mark additional points to check to see if they're entry points or not < 1267634183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, COME FROM-style? < 1267634197 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds horrible, at any rate. < 1267634235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort-of the point < 1267634239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, scarf (maintainer of c-intercal (ick)) wrote a fingerprint for cfunge, that allows this integration, cfunge is built as a library and statically linked to the compiled INTERCAL program (only if it uses befunge linking of course) < 1267634255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IFFI the fingerprint is an implementation of all the INTERCAL flow-control operations in Befunge < 1267634258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is loaded from an unsigned char * array < 1267634282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meh, small technical incorrectness in that type, but doesn't really matter) < 1267634310 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use it with CFFI/ick_ecto_b98 the implementation, then it additionally links those flow-control operations in the Befunge with the flow-control operations in the INTERCAL < 1267634328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do the equivalent of COME FROM (5) in the Befunge and come from line (5) in the INTERCAL program, or vice versa < 1267634344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wasn't it come from x,y ? < 1267634354 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, line numbers < 1267634360 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it fits in with the INTERCAL program < 1267634363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, even for befunge code side? < 1267634366 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267634370 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even do computed COME FROMs < 1267634376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Dare I ask, does this support self-modification? Like if I 'p' a middot into the playfield... < 1267634382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, comming from befunge < 1267634384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to intercal < 1267634402 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it supports self-modification for everything but middot locations, at the moment; the middots are more compiler directives, they vanish on program load < 1267634415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't they turn into M or something? < 1267634418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267634433 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, it wouldn't be that hard to change the directives at runtime; I'm just not sure if it's useful < 1267634437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, could you come from a position in befunge too? I don't remember < 1267634459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: M5C M5L is an infinite loop < 1267634467 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I've remembered the syntax correctly < 1267634474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have got that backwards < 1267634487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, come from is more like "if we get to that point, jump here" < 1267634497 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267634500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it should be able to target anywhere shouldn't it? < 1267634506 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can target any line label < 1267634508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like COME FROM befunge (2,4) < 1267634512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in intercal < 1267634513 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come from can only hit lines which actually have a label on < 1267634519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, with different syntax of course) < 1267634531 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the INTERCAL, you write COME FROM (5), then it'll come from an M5L in the Befunge < 1267634543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1267634562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, btw, is there anything in IFFI that can interact weirdly with k? I don't remember < 1267634581 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: quite possibly < 1267634594 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fingerprint isn't /very/ feral, so probably not < 1267634596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh kM? < 1267634601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds fun < 1267634617 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M does nothing when actually encountered, though; it just specifies a location to start executing at < 1267634620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, well, k calls execute_instruction in a loop < 1267634633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm < 1267634633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M means "here might be an entry point" < 1267634650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what about *exit* points then? < 1267634652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is written with a middot in the original source < 1267634660 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're the usual @, etc < 1267634668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no, that isn't what I asked < 1267634670 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, to exit you use fingerprint commands < 1267634674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : scarf, could you come from a position in befunge too? I don't remember < 1267634674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: M5C M5L is an infinite loop < 1267634677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1267634680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come from befunge < 1267634682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to intercal < 1267634686 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267634686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you put a line label in < 1267634690 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along the lines of M5L < 1267634698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can come from there < 1267634701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and then when that label is encounterd in the befunge program it jumps to intercal? < 1267634704 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need the M, because it might NEXT to that line later < 1267634708 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep < 1267634719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then how could kM *not* cause issues? < 1267634735 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, it starts executing at the M < 1267634737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you check that in your top loop? < 1267634747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, shouldn't it jump to intercal when it hits the M? < 1267634750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I thought you said < 1267634754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, when it hits the L < 1267634763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, how could it know what the number was? < 1267634766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, okay, so what about kL then? < 1267634776 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: then it returns on the first L, so the others don't happen < 1267634787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, returns from where? < 1267634789 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++) return; < 1267634793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C < 1267634804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in the main loop? Well k doesn't go by the main loop < 1267634805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, gets come-frommed, or whatever < 1267634811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember it calls execute_instruction directly < 1267634813 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that isn't in the main loop, that's in the fingerprint I think < 1267634814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a loop < 1267634823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm actually going to read the source now < 1267634841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it would need to somehow get up through run_iterate() (which implements k) < 1267634846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a longjmp is all I can think of < 1267634872 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, I see what's hapened < 1267634873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*happened < 1267634877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1267634884 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sets a flag in the code, multiple times, which does nothign < 1267634888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267634893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when it goes back to the main loop, it simulates only having happened once < 1267634906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get the effect of returning on the first call, although actually it ignores all but the last then returns on the last call < 1267634907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how longjmp() interacts with __attribute__((regparm(3)))
< 1267634931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hope it handles it) < 1267634992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm, does L take the line number as a parameter on stack? < 1267634998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267635009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, won't it be overwritten to actually be the last one given to L? < 1267635012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a k loop < 1267635020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what does negative line numbers do? < 1267635026 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it will < 1267635036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and is line 0 valid? < 1267635038 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and line numbers outside the range 1..65535 are ignored < 1267635054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, not very befungeish, silently ignoring < 1267635068 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's the correct behaviour for computed COME FROM < 1267635074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267635078 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a COME FROM should do nothing if aimed at an illegal line number < 1267635090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267635120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be fun to do this as a free standing befunge fingerprint. Not sure how much it depends on ick internals < 1267635139 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Ruby a good language to first try to learn continuations in? < 1267635153 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to separate it out to some extent; it depends on ick internals for the control flow deliberately, because it needs to be the same control flow as in the INTERCAL program < 1267635164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267635192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what I actually meant (but didn't say I realise) was: "how hard would it be to rewrite those bits for freestanding" < 1267635209 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be massively hard; INTERCAL control flow is relatively easy to implement < 1267635221 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to /use/, but easy to implement < 1267635235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the few easy parts to implement? < 1267635257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also, what about memory leaks? Is there any way to remove a come from? < 1267635283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Actually, I think it is. < 1267635295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I'm not very happy with REFC and such < 1267635296 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the way it works is, whenever a line label's encountered, it starts executing in every cardinal direction from every middot, to see if it comes across a comefrom < 1267635305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which *requires* you to leak memory basically < 1267635320 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that a leak? < 1267635326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses a fixed amount of memory in every case < 1267635337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you can't remove refences, just add new and dereference existing < 1267635338 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the set of middots is fixed at compiletime < 1267635344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: references to what? < 1267635348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :references* < 1267635355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, cells < 1267635357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x,y < 1267635365 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you can't add new either < 1267635366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/REFC.html < 1267635369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1267635373 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you're talking about REFC, rather than IFFI < 1267635376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes < 1267635389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, I want to avoid this scenario for a fingerprint < 1267635406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the point of REFC is < 1267635410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you need reference-counting < 1267635419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just share vectors < 1267635423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, for funge cells? Don't be daft XD < 1267635428 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, for vectors < 1267635439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, how would I track them < 1267635444 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: maybe it's so you can have vectors /of/ vectors < 1267635474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing forbids you to output it, then later ask the user to input the same number < 1267635481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1267635490 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: let's say, R creates a reference with a refcount of 1, D dereferences a reference, C increases a reference's refcount, X decreases a reference's refcount, and if it falls to 0 it can't be used in future < 1267635498 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, refcounting in the fingerprint < 1267635505 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267635508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well that would require changing the fingerprint < 1267635512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is unrealistic < 1267635520 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ManFour.html < 1267635522 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does say "Under development" < 1267635523 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facts about 4our < 1267635528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fingerprint as written requires a memory leak, yes < 1267635534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, doesn't all your fingerprints almost? < 1267635545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, still in beta (oh wait it isn't) < 1267635648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should probably just be burnt < 1267635667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There' < 1267635685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267635698 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a saying about how the only thing worse than generalizing from a single example is generalizing from no examples at all. < 1267635725 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# of use cases for REFC = 0, so... garbage collect it :) < 1267635757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how do you know? < 1267635767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mycology doesn't count I guess < 1267635774 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Feel free to prove me wrong < 1267635789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is writing one now allowed? ;P < 1267635810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked lists? < 1267635815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trees? < 1267635820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm interesting < 1267635826 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REFC's about the best you can do for writing object-oriented funge, too < 1267635836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267635841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects are immutable < 1267635842 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that really needs a fingerprint of its own < 1267635852 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, but you can make slightly mutated copies, Haskell-style < 1267635853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what about rc/funge's FOBJ? < 1267635862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not very good OO though) < 1267635868 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have the whole list of rc/funge fingerprints memorised, for presumably obvious reasons < 1267635876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(object, but not most of the concepts of OO) < 1267635906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FOBJ < 1267635955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that appears to be a Trefunge-only fingerprint < 1267635957 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a strong argument for using references instead of vectors (even for linked lists, objects, etc.) except for some pie-in-the-sky notion of writing a *funge polyglot, e.g. Befunge and Trefunge. < 1267635974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267635981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I didn't think of that one < 1267635996 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, I forgot that vectors couldn't be arbitrary-length < 1267636005 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the case of trees still applies, though < 1267636030 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in efunge, you wouldn't need to have a memory leak < 1267636031 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Why can't you just store the vector of the child node, in the parent node? < 1267636044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm? < 1267636047 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because then it wouldn't fit into one cell, unless you had bignums < 1267636047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, you do have memory leaks with REFC. < 1267636050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, how < 1267636056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Why do you have to use one cell? < 1267636067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can implement R as mingling all the elements of the vector, and D as unmingling them < 1267636076 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you don't have to, but you might want to, for code simplicity reasons < 1267636082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, interesting idea < 1267636089 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That' < 1267636103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'? < 1267636103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: your comment was cut off < 1267636103 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I call a strong argument. < 1267636114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude < 1267636118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, scarf's suggestion about mingling was quite nice < 1267636119 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' is right next to Enter < 1267636125 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, think about, say, STRN or TOYS; those exist only for code simplicity too < 1267636125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1267636134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm not complaining about the cut-off, just pointing it out in case you missed it < 1267636136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, on some layouts at least < 1267636142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including mine) < 1267636150 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's # between ' and enter on this keyboard < 1267636193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjklöä' < 1267636224 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl;'# < 1267636243 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old pond a frog jumps in splash? < 1267636254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ? < 1267636297 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say, implementing REFC without memory leaks is pretty hard. < 1267636312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know that it's impossible. < 1267636314 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, the only solution's to encode the entire vector into the pointer < 1267636319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which requires either bignums or Unefunge < 1267636326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is very easy to write a non-leaky REFC in Unefunge) < 1267636339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, even then, you have to distinguish it from integers which happen to coincidentally have the same value. < 1267636340 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because you can make both R and D NOPs) < 1267636348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arstdhneio'\ < 1267636348 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have to carry type information < 1267636356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the stack and throughout the playfield. < 1267636364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm, no, because nothing's forcing REFC values to be distinct from integers < 1267636375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't add type information < 1267636402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can read in an integer with & and use it to access a REFC vector as well as do anything else < 1267636408 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: OK, in the bignum case. I guess I'm talking about the non-bignum case. < 1267636426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also unefunge < 1267636434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well, REFC doesn't define what ,D would mean < 1267636436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the non-bignum case, with unefunge, there are a finite number of possible integers, and an equal finite number of possible vectors < 1267636438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for fixnum befunge-or-above... < 1267636440 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could reflect. < 1267636441 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can just map them one-on-one < 1267636465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm also not very interested in Unefunge. < 1267636477 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internal list would be a fixed internal list, {0=>0,1=>1,...} < 1267636488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for bignum and unefunge, though, it's impossible to do without a memleak < 1267636505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: REFC just says that if you give it an integer which is the same as one that R earlier pushed it'll work < 1267636513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter where that integer came from < 1267636517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant &cpressey, how does REFC interact with storage offset? < 1267636521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember < 1267636529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: REFC says nothing about integers < 1267636531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/&/& / < 1267636535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should work < 1267636540 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"scalar values" < 1267636541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that sed expression) < 1267636548 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So you're arguing that "a scalar value" could be a non-stack cell? :-P < 1267636557 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ooh, the idea is that you might be storing something other than integers in fungespace / on the stack? < 1267636560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm trying to make an argument for burning REFC < 1267636560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that would be quite ferral < 1267636566 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what happens if you p them onto the playfield, then execute them? < 1267636571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, things implement it < 1267636586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd rather make it actually useful ;-) < 1267636588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh that gave me a good idea < 1267636593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a *wonderful* idea < 1267636597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, thanks a LOT < 1267636598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess it's equivalent to burning it and doing something else < 1267636607 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1267636622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: REFC says nothing about storage offset so IMO it's not affected by it < 1267636637 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: someone will surely make an argument that fingerprints are immutable, even if they're crap-ambiguous < 1267636651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yep, AnMaster will < 1267636662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I have considered opaque values. For efunge things like {float,12.42} or {socket, Data_about_it} would be a lot nicer for fingerprints like FILE or SOCK or FPDP < 1267636669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that would be a pain in some other parts < 1267636674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be kind of neat < 1267636678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Myself, I don't mind fixing broken-ass stuff in-place < 1267636680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea of ping them onto the playfield then executing them's a weird one < 1267636680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now I figured out a way to solve it < 1267636689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the idea is that they are represented as functions < 1267636694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be acted upon < 1267636700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, you could have lazy values < 1267636704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if something tries to add them together and what not.. < 1267636708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that too < 1267636729 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, if you have some sort of lambda fingerprint, you could (very ferally) have a completely lazy funge, and still stay within the spec < 1267636755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, my primary interest was about what happens if you pass a {socket,523} and a {float,2.3} to FPDP's "add two floating point numbers" or such < 1267636759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where the error should be handled < 1267636766 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPDP should reflect < 1267636773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think this could mean it can implement the behaviour itself < 1267636773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the specific command in it should reflect < 1267636790 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or it should read a floating-point number from the socket and add that < 1267636797 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operand overloading FTW < 1267636798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes. But there would be a lot of "check what sort of value this is" or a lot of try catch < 1267636800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsewhere < 1267636811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither of which I liked very much < 1267636818 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could centralise it somewhat < 1267636824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes, try catch < 1267636830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is somewhat blunt < 1267636847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, efunge is already slow. < 1267636850 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, defining fingerprint commands, you'd say what type of arguments they expected in the specfile-equivalent < 1267636868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, currently efunge uses the same specfile format as cfunge for the fingerprints < 1267636885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and similar shell scripts, but with different code generation output of course) < 1267636922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Until it's around the level of L::B you can't call it slow < 1267636942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, slow enough that I'm somewhat annoyed at waiting on mycology < 1267636959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long does it take? < 1267636961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: hmm, if it doesn't implement hexadecifunge, it should be significantly faster than L::B to not be considered slow < 1267636968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, overall it is a bit slower than ccbi it seems < 1267636976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :varies a bit depending on things < 1267636981 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hexadecefunge < 1267636985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that makes it annoyingly slow? You're awfully sensitive :-P < 1267636986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like, which program) < 1267637022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is hexadecefunge? < 1267637034 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 16-dimensional funge, of course < 1267637050 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What is L::B? < 1267637052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh, not weird topology then? < 1267637059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Language::Befunge < 1267637062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl < 1267637064 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Language::Befunge, the Perl implementation < 1267637065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Perl. < 1267637074 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports arbitrary-dimension funge < 1267637076 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is incredibly slow < 1267637085 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then shouldn't it be Language::Funge? < 1267637090 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, it was incredibly slow even before it supported arbitrary-dimensional funges < 1267637096 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It didn't always support them < 1267637099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: probably, but it's probably too late to rename it now < 1267637115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of immutability < 1267637140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it causes problems when breaking previous programs < 1267637165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should have made "under development" bold type < 1267637167 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1267637170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maaaybe ;P < 1267637198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe what? < 1267637212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "allow changes" < 1267637231 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand. < 1267637233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1267637237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1267637250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should have a fingerprint which is officially defined to be undefined, and whose semantics change every now and then < 1267637252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(possibly that was more in-joke than I thought) < 1267637259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh < 1267637337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh btw... MODU < 1267637342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "R: C-language integer remainder " < 1267637345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that C99? < 1267637358 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It predates C99 :-P < 1267637361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because C89 remainder is actually not well defined for negative values < 1267637369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers why he walked away from Befunge the first time
< 1267637373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, befunge-98 does. But I don't know about that fingerprint < 1267637380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267637383 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it also does < 1267637387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well right < 1267637399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, fun to revisit for a bit? :) < 1267637409 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you've still managed to invent arguably the most useful of all the esolangs, though < 1267637422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267637435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Useful measured how? < 1267637444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267637449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most used of the non-tarpit ones, at least < 1267637468 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: useful in how quick it is to write a practical program with it < 1267637479 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Which one? < 1267637482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what Deewiant said, and also "capable of interacting with other things with something more than just console io" < 1267637484 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is the useful one < 1267637492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge. < 1267637493 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably befunge < 1267637495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, if you really wanted to program something, and had only esolangs to do it with, you'd probably use befunge < 1267637536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I can't imagine fungot being possible to write in brainfuck or intercal. For a start it would have needed a proxy program to handle socket and file io multiplexing for it < 1267637537 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: love this song describes me...2 much. knob head. now, their all wanna be friends? < 1267637545 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might PSOX help? *evilgrin* < 1267637553 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wrong there, CLC-INTERCAL can do both < 1267637553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps Sgeo_
< 1267637560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wasn < 1267637571 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cut-off line < 1267637583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267637593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wasn't* that just to other clc-intercal < 1267637596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the socket IO) < 1267637604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealing variables or something? < 1267637610 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it has syscalls too < 1267637626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealing variables is a favoured method of network communication, as it's higher-level < 1267637633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what? arbitrary syscalls? < 1267637637 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can do low-level socket work too if you like, to be compatible with other programs < 1267637642 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not arbitrary syscalls, a subset < 1267637647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew < 1267637653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, still that is unportable < 1267637659 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're relatively portable ones < 1267637664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, syscalls on freebsd are different than on linux < 1267637667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they can all be implemented in portable Perl < 1267637686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a syscall from INTERCAL's point of view is "open a socket", not "open a socket using this specific function" < 1267637687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, which ABI does it assume for the syscalls then? < 1267637695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, aha < 1267637698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't, CLC-INTERCAL is interpreted < 1267637710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, I thought perl could call native code < 1267637720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like syscall() in libc or such < 1267637721 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can, but it's not implemented like that < 1267637728 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, CLC-INTERCAL isn't < 1267637743 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although my attempts to port it to DOS failed because it assumed newline=10 < 1267637754 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twitter uses Ruby [on Rails] apparently < 1267637769 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rails and Ruby are really quite different < 1267637783 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might as well try to compare Befunge to SCKE, or whatever < 1267637784 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: and from what I've heard it's given them quite a bit of pain < 1267637822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, the term "syscall" mislead me here < 1267637858 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Howso? < 1267637876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: scaling < 1267637896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scaling up to however many millions of users they have. < 1267637932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, that's just a rumour. < 1267637954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be anti-Rails agitprop, for all I know < 1267637983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1267638017 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't know what SCKE is < 1267638042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: a funge fingerprint, I just picked one off the top of my head < 1267638043 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's more productive, when faced with an ambiguously-defined fingerprint, to propose a new fingerprint with a different name (diff by one letter, say) which fixes the ambiguities. < 1267638057 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like FING and FNGR? < 1267638069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FING and FNGR are two quite different approaches < 1267638073 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267638087 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementations which provide ambiguous fingerprints will do so ambiguously. Good implementations that provide ambiguous fingerprints will allow themselves to be configured to handle the common de facto interpretations of the fingerprint. < 1267638099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all. < 1267638133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only there were "common de facto interpretations" :-) < 1267638146 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should have said "most common". < 1267638154 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, fungot now has a Twitter account. < 1267638155 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you sick son of a job drawing conclusions!!! i can't wait for the airshow and that just shows up when the pilot. < 1267638165 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What made you think that was a good idea < 1267638170 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does it spout nonsense whenever anyone mentions it? < 1267638187 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Sounds like a typical Twitter user to me, actually < 1267638205 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I haven't really rigged up the automation yet; that's one possibility. I was personally thinking more about a scheduled "thought for the day" sort of thing. < 1267638219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: and what is your thought for today? < 1267638220 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: i'll take my moron with on r,please. < 1267638228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267638236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually a pretty good thought < 1267638245 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what it means < 1267638253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267638253 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* < 1267638259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267638265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, make a style twitter? < 1267638266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267638272 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See http://twitter.com/fungot for the first tweet; that was just a half-manual (automatic babble-generation and automatic posting, but nothing scheduled, just a fire-once thing with a fixed model) run. < 1267638273 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you must be stupid if there were 130 people on the news. if yall want to give 4000 to each chinese citizen to pay off it's debt's)its only gonna get worse and worse each week. < 1267638275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use that to generate the new ones < 1267638275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's invoking Muphry's, at least < 1267638283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have a twitter style, it's just not in the bot yet. < 1267638288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1267638296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't have very much data for it yet. < 1267638308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I see < 1267638342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqlite> select count(*) from tweets; < 1267638342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11590 < 1267638349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does the "about nethack" show the style it came from or is that actually part of what it said < 1267638360 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It shows the style, in this case. < 1267638419 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267638432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why a sql db for it? < 1267638482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why not? Everything can interface with sqlite, and I may want to use some of the tweet-related metadata for selecting things at some point. Admittedly currently a flat file would've worked just as well. < 1267638543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the twitter style I've just told it to every 10 minutes go and fetch the top-10 "trending" topics from the Twitter API, select one randomly, and fetch 64 latest tweets about that topic. < 1267638546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah, well that is what I thought: "it uses flat files" < 1267638559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also now you forced me to actually define that fingerprint SQLITE < 1267638564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or SQL I guess) < 1267638583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe, when I have time) < 1267638598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLT for SQLite I guess < 1267638610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why T? < 1267638615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it be SQLL? < 1267638617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Lite < 1267638621 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: SQLT reminded me of XSLT < 1267638630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267638636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, SQLite already has SQL in the name so I was thinking SQLiTe < 1267638653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLL would fit if it were SQL-Lite < 1267638662 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe SQL- ;-P < 1267638662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267638669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not SQLITE? < 1267638686 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on what it overlaps with < 1267638691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the 32-bit range < 1267638702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ffs, 32-bit is a thing of the past ;P < 1267638711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it really isn't :-P < 1267638716 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit pretty much is < 1267638724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 32-bit is very much present < 1267638734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 16 bit is not < 1267638738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The twitter style output generates pretty horribly moronic output, but, well, garbage in and so on. < 1267638742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/Aj33WwJn < 1267638743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, look at lots of embedded microcontrollers < 1267638762 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Lots of embedded stuff is actually 32-bit as well < 1267638782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you make it just pull from the twitter feeds of intelligent people? < 1267638786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, should filter urls from it I think < 1267638790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have a feeling that things are generally going in that direction < 1267638793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I'm wrong < 1267638794 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1267638794 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1267638807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well sure < 1267638811 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: There are intelligent people there? But sure, theoretically. < 1267638814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but 12 bits or such is still common < 1267638825 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Is there a discussion here? < 1267638826 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: what about the ' tenor' roles... it could have been a while!! < 1267638827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mayhap < 1267638836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc PIC12F had... hm I don't remember address and data bus sizes < 1267638845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of DSP stuff is (or at least has been) 24 bits; that's a nice intermediate size. < 1267638846 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the comments were sourced from the top 50 or so videos of 11th May, 2009) < 1267638853 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(492kb of data) < 1267638859 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all processed to be content-only) < 1267638861 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asie[afk] < 1267638939 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the top videos are bound to have stupid comments < 1267638945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using real twitter data has the "problem" that it will include lots of @names in it, and those mentioned people might get a bit confused. < 1267638962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since (as far as I know) they see it when people put their @name in there. < 1267638976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, filter @names and http:// then? < 1267638977 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confusion is fun! < 1267638992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm not yet sure if it's a problem. < 1267639017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twitter people might count the end product spam, anyway. < 1267639060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, filtering it doesn't sound too bad < 1267639080 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fizzie < 1267639092 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to add new youtube comments to fungot < 1267639093 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asie[afk]: nobody was in middle to the bloke the plane ( alpha-floor protection etc) and loads more cabin crew. < 1267639097 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goal is 5MB < 1267639159 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd really suggest some HTML scraping as opposed to manual collecting, but whatever floats your e-boat, I guess. < 1267639198 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But then it doesn't look authentic twittery if it's not full of tinyurl links and @pings and #tags. (Though I guess there's no need to filter #tags; that's just another way people might end up actually seeing those tweets and being confused by them.) < 1267639220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is going on < 1267639234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prods disk, htop and sync
< 1267639254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically lots of disk io (seek noise), sync just hangs. Everything else is fine < 1267639263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :htop shows no candidate for this < 1267639269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm it stopped < 1267639285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaie < 1267639291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[887761.704069] INFO: task sync:24027 blocked for more than 120 seconds. < 1267639291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[887761.704075] "echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/hung_task_timeout_secs" disables this message. < 1267639294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lots more < 1267639316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay going offline for emergency fsck from livecd now < 1267639443 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267639493 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267639520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267639759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/lab/Befunge-111-Specification-DRAFT.txt < 1267639770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the first 1/3 or so of it, mostly definitions. < 1267639788 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining what it means for an IP to advance is going to be a pain. < 1267639971 0 :anmaster_l!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1267639983 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it looks like one partition was damaged < 1267639986 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp < 1267639990 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all others are fine < 1267640004 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is lucky considering... < 1267640012 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did scarf go? < 1267640014 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267640028 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection) -- your guess is as good as ours, I guess. < 1267640046 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267640052 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267640072 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that is just the ext* file systems checked so far < 1267640126 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267640148 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1267640162 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every integer in the range of -2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647 inclusive must be precisely and reliably representable by a intval." < 1267640172 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's OK for other integers to be represented imprecisely and unreliably? < 1267640185 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, where is that from? < 1267640215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Oh, right, you missed: < 1267640217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://catseye.tc/lab/Befunge-111-Specification-DRAFT.txt < 1267640217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's the first 1/3 or so of it, mostly definitions. < 1267640217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defining what it means for an IP to advance is going to be a pain. < 1267640223 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267640247 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will check that once desktop is back up < 1267640287 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes. That's what people mean when they say "32-bit Befunge"... do you have a problem with that? < 1267640557 0 :benuphoenix!~matt@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267640585 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1267640590 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm about to leave now, so bye < 1267640615 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, are you saying OOM should result in exiting? < 1267640621 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this breaks { behaviour < 1267640628 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to reflect if allocation fails < 1267640630 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267640638 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't matter for actual programs < 1267640662 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does cause some headache if you are to implement both 98 and 111 < 1267640667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: In general, yes, but I haven't defined { yet. < 1267640669 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as a command line flag or such) < 1267640670 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267640689 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, does it have to terminate nicely? < 1267640706 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or is ending with a huge backtrace okay? < 1267640718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: "Implementing both 98 and 111" is a not a design consideration < 1267640727 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: "nicely" is not defined < 1267640748 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you know what I mean. Is it allowed to crap all over the place basically in case of OOM < 1267640767 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: It doesn't disallow it. < 1267640775 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267640798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You know what I mean" is what got us into this mess. If you want specific, I'm going to be specific. < 1267640820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't want specific, -98 is fine < 1267640859 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it would need to be specific in the spec yes < 1267640868 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think IRC is the spec < 1267640894 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but questions about the spec can't be answered unless they're specific, even if those questions are asked on IRC < 1267640909 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm typing this on an uncomfortable keyboard < 1267640915 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to allow for that < 1267640962 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, cells yeild 32 by default? < 1267640976 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how does that interact with popping zero on empty stack? < 1267640986 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is cell just funge-space here? < 1267641005 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Stacks are not defined in terms of cells, they are defined in terms of intvals. < 1267641036 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so they can't contain opaque objects < 1267641037 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267641040 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, s/intvals/objects/. < 1267641042 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267641053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, cells are effectively only in the playfield < 1267641092 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun, I hope no one gets confused reading cfunge source then! (typedef funge_cell is used stack too) < 1267641163 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, elements on the stack aren't mutable, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to define them the same as cells. < 1267641176 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what exactly is ASCII? < 1267641184 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you refer to the relevant spec for it? ;P < 1267641203 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how are they not? < 1267641210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267641213 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there is that FRTH fingerprint which does rot and such < 1267641227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rot can be defined in terms of pushes and pops < 1267641240 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FRTH btw) < 1267641249 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about IIPC? < 1267641265 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it isn't change in place either I guess < 1267641312 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267641454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey[lunch] < 1267641488 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267641681 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey[lunch], okay that doesn't work < 1267641687 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't allow opaque values on the stack < 1267641710 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of it is intermixing opaque and normal values < 1267641716 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as parameters to some fingerprints < 1267642119 0 :alise!~5f925fb0@gateway/web/freenode/x-onwhyyxijpwbafmg JOIN :#esoteric < 1267642283 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.delsquacho.com/articles/ten-youtube-translations.php - This made me smile. < 1267642316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in fact still alive. < 1267642324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I need to find somewhere to put my computer... < 1267642324 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nana < 1267642326 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nana < 1267642326 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nana < 1267642327 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nana < 1267642386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey[lunch] is making a new befunge standard himself? < 1267642387 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top 1 use for a Neural Network: Deciphering YouTube comments < 1267642392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267642417 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-111 < 1267642421 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is obviously Befunge 2011 < 1267642425 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE HAVE 2010 NOW < 1267642425 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO < 1267642435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck 2010 < 1267642438 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010 doesn't exist < 1267642447 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1267642450 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he just meant < 1267642451 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-7 < 1267642501 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267642503 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.32722 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267642531 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, you know the saying, never send a boy to do a man's job. < 1267642531 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267642534 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.351 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267642535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asie[afk] is still just as annoying. < 1267642694 0 :cpressey[lunch]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it doesn't allow opaque values on the stack <-- please refer to why and how to fix it < 1267642726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey[lunch]: So you usurped Befunge-10x? < 1267642733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank god. It was awful :P < 1267642749 0 :cpressey[lunch]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey < 1267642770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It? Does a Befunge-10x exist? < 1267642796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, that thing anmaster_l was working on with fingerprints being URIs. < 1267642806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say thing; I mean abomination. >_> < 1267642815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought that was 109 < 1267642822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but then he failed to get it done in 2009 < 1267642825 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make Befunge-911 < 1267642829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was 108 before that < 1267643016 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267643082 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267643099 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267643118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, no place to put the computer. < 1267643157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:29:29 * cpressey remembers why he walked away from Befunge the first time < 1267643160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohh, ice burn. < 1267643537 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on a "Notes" document to accompany the spec and contain all the non-normative commentary... hopefully it'll help make things clearer. < 1267643694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, new place, eh? < 1267643718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not permanent. Only for, well, this night, pretty much. Sigh. < 1267643966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: < 1267643970 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Befunge-111, any stack can only contain one kind of object." < 1267643974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Allow objects on the stack. < 1267643981 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the problematic phrase < 1267643982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. objects and intvals < 1267643985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be fun and hilarious < 1267643991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1267643995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fidn' teven see this convo < 1267643999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*didn't even < 1267644030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would really like my computer :| < 1267644195 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1267644237 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: That kind of object is "object", which is either an intval or an opaque. I realize this wording is confusing. I'll fix it. < 1267644262 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1267644279 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it sounds like it is one kind of object per stack < 1267644283 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that is surely wrong) < 1267644290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_object_ is horrible word to have a definition of < 1267644304 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about value? < 1267644324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, value is OK. Don't ask me to define it though. < 1267644342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the sort of thing that makes philosophy careers. < 1267644371 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or entenity (sp? argh) < 1267644381 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"object: region of data storage in the execution environment, the contents of which can represent values" (C99 is a bit pragmatic) < 1267644415 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, actually, value would be confusing < 1267644426 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object or entenity (again: spelling?) < 1267644429 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are better < 1267644437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entity < 1267644442 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eternity. < 1267644443 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thanks < 1267644443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"element"? < 1267644450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, you're at a hotel or something and will be at place later. "Fun". < 1267644469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entity: (forall x. x is an entity) & ~(exists x. ~(x is an entity)) < 1267644473 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, an element of an array on the stack? < 1267644474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophy is like logic but with more redundancy. < 1267644475 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or SETS < 1267644492 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thing" < 1267644493 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, calling it element in general would make that SETS fingerprint confusing perhaps < 1267644495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets don't exist < 1267644497 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hehe < 1267644501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Logic is often considered part of philosophy. < 1267644513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By idiots. < 1267644519 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I'm talking about http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SETS < 1267644524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :philosophy without logic is like sex without marrige < 1267644541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Less restraining? < 1267644542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267644549 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(More diseases) < 1267644553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider it more a tool needed to do philosophy sanely. < 1267644557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that this stops people from doing it insanely) < 1267644593 0 :charlls!~charlls@200.109.210.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267644625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll just define "object stack", "stack stack", and "fingerprint semantic stack" as seperate things instead of trying to generalize (which is what is leading to me needing the word "thing") < 1267644640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object or stack or fingerprint semantic... < 1267644646 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, aha < 1267644651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How about having object/stack/fingerprint semantics "types"? < 1267644659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then say "A stack of a certain type ... contains elements of that type ..." < 1267644669 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that, or objects can be stacks and they can be semantics and that is Wrong, or at least requires a lot more thought < 1267644682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you say a stack of objects, a stack of stacks of a certain type, and a stack of fingerprint semantics. < 1267644699 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh fun, lets have a fingerprint that can place stacks as opaque values on your stack < 1267644702 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the type intval|opaque could have a name besides "object" < 1267644717 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, popping TOSS off, and pushing it as a opaque value on the new TOSS < 1267644724 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267644742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think I like that approach < 1267644755 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that might work < 1267644763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Nothing stopping you, really, since opaque is opaque is opaque < 1267644793 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true, anyway I come up with semi-opaque lazy lambdas now < 1267644799 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will execute when inspected < 1267644800 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by anything < 1267644812 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus try to present themselves with a reasonable value < 1267644821 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, of course this is extremely feral < 1267644834 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it requires a lot more thought < 1267644851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Allow the core operations to be performed on opaque objects, with semantics defined by the opaque object. < 1267644862 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you made all values functions, then this could work transparently < 1267644866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we can have y push a bunch of lazy values that only evaluate when you use them. < 1267644878 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either have values that are just "dumb" functions, returning their own value < 1267644882 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have advanced ones < 1267644888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1267644891 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could vary depending on what the operation is < 1267644896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have values that do completely random things wwhen you operate on them < 1267644897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*when < 1267644901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+? Yes, that outputs the stack stack. < 1267644903 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and lazy values too of course < 1267644908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Those can just be done as opaques. < 1267644928 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, there is a bit of confusion about how many elements a lazy value could expand to < 1267644930 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the stack size < 1267644944 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can get stack size with y remember?) < 1267644950 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267644976 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Have values that do completely random things wwhen you operate on them <-- yes :D < 1267644989 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I think this is best left out of 111 < 1267645000 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs more thought < 1267645004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, I'll just define my own... Abstract Funge! < 1267645014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N-dimensional? Who says it needs to be in only one kind of space? < 1267645020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numbers? Why restrict yourself thusly?! < 1267645027 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, call it beabstract? < 1267645028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be a monoidal semiring. < 1267645095 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, one of the goals with befunge-111 is that it shouldn't break the majority of previous programs (some depending on corner cases are ok) < 1267645107 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it should clear up confusion < 1267645138 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus move some stuff, like tio= into fingerprints (and keep the existing chars implementation defined) < 1267645142 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for those) < 1267645146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Can I make a humble suggestion? (note: it's crazy) < 1267645179 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alise, read logs for the last few weeks or so if you want more details, there was quite a lot of discussion) < 1267645192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let an IP be in multiple places at once < 1267645200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, multiple velocities going different ways < 1267645206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantumly! < 1267645209 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267645215 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine for a fingerprint I feel < 1267645215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO IT < 1267645218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: NO < 1267645225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop trying to keep funge boring :( < 1267645241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/boring/practical/ < 1267645242 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: For orthogonality, all vectors would need to be quantum superpositions of multiple vectors. < 1267645260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the stack, too. < 1267645272 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and funge space? < 1267645278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Whyever not? :D < 1267645284 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, funge space can be reduced to a single cell. < 1267645294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh. Go in EVERY DIRECTION AT ONCE. < 1267645299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your IP would /explode/ outwards. < 1267645305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exploring t'forbidden space. < 1267645307 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what would it do? < 1267645308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now these wouldn't be separate IPs, oh no. < 1267645313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on a jump character? < 1267645316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL IPS JUMP < 1267645320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change direction? < 1267645325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do of your IPs. < 1267645328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all of < 1267645334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Separate, yet equal! < 1267645337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :White, yet black! < 1267645349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly, yet silly! < 1267645350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION takes another hit from the bong
< 1267645357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: ALBATROSS IPs < 1267645373 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, your ideas are fine for some other be* language < 1267645376 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not befunge < 1267645380 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see logs about that < 1267645384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Tell him that he is wrong! < 1267645385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO IT < 1267645391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad the name bequnge is already taken < 1267645401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befuck < 1267645404 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cpressey argued we should keep befunge close to the current one < 1267645409 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tough luck < 1267645414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was before cpressey heard my wonderful idea. < 1267645416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befuckyoubecausequantum < 1267645424 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, he suggested other fungoids could be created < 1267645427 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for weird ideas < 1267645427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeQuantumlyFucked < 1267645429 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like those < 1267645431 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267645486 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you interpret the Befunge-111 in multiple languages simultaneously, you will find it contains all of your proposed features, and more. < 1267645489 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, here is a suggested esolang name. Design the matching esolang: undertrefuck (read as: under-tre-fuck) < 1267645498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spec < 1267645499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking under trees. < 1267645506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :D < 1267645525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeEfucking < 1267645531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sexual intercourse with bees. As a language. < 1267645535 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, or combine underload, trefunge and brainfuck < 1267645552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urefucked? < 1267645559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda + INTERCAL + Brainfuck + Underload = ?? < 1267645560 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1267645564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda + INTERCAL + Brainfuck + Underload + Befunge = ?? < 1267645565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say < 1267645569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 5 classics < 1267645570 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267645590 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "a messy bloated tarpit" < 1267645596 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what you replace ?? with < 1267645596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BerainfunINTERCALoadge < 1267645614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ber ayen fun interca loadge < 1267645809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolang idea: Axiom. < 1267645819 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267645835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example: forall x. x=3 -> outputted(start, x) < 1267645850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., for all values x, x is 3 implies x was outputted at the start of execution. < 1267645885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. x = inputted(start) < 1267645896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., there exists a value x such that x is equal to what was inputted by the user at the start of the program. < 1267645910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. x = inputted(start) & outputted(start+1, x) < 1267645926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., there exists a value x such that x is equal to what was inputted by the user at the start of the program, and that was outputted at the start of the program + 1 event. < 1267645939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exists x. x = inputted(start+1) & outputted(start, x)) - fails, contradictory < 1267645951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather impossible, not contradictory necessarily < 1267645959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just /happened/ to be the same thing printed as you put in :) < 1267646162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall n. forall x. outputted(n, x-1) & (x % whatever) = 0 -> outputted(n+1, x) < 1267646167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the idea < 1267646425 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, spec and implement it then < 1267646460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ; ; ; ; @ < 1267646468 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many ticks before it halts? < 1267646490 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc 98 says space takes no ticks, and nor does ;; does it? < 1267646496 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not completely sure < 1267646546 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Like space, this takes zero ticks to execute, so that subroutines, comments, and satellite code can be insulated by surrounding it with ; markers, with no effect on multithreading." < 1267646560 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so I guess: tick 1: >, tick 2 @ < 1267646564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say it executes >, then @, then it's over < 1267646566 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267646583 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, better check with ccbi on this (cfunge doesn't track tick counts) < 1267646611 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant spent quite a lot of time figuring this out < 1267646666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, just run with ccbi's debugger ;-P < 1267646668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: space taking zero ticks sucks by the way < 1267646670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo. < 1267646672 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the spec 2.0! < 1267646678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is ugly. I'm going to have to define a single ; in a path as a special case. < 1267646684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why < 1267646686 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how is that? < 1267646688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, I hate sgml spaces more < 1267646689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is never only a single ; in a path < 1267646689 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it wraps around < 1267646691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, we want wrapping to complete in finite time < 1267646703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Not SGML spaces + A run of spaces takes 0 ticks. But please no SGML spaces. < 1267646715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: for my defn of 'path' right now there can be. this might chaneg < 1267646725 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think SGML spaces should be kept now < 1267646727 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are useful < 1267646731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooooooooOOOOOO < 1267646733 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some programs I wrote made use of them < 1267646736 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck "useful" < 1267646742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"useful" has no meaning here < 1267646745 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for things crossing each other < 1267646757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Your definition is poor ;-P < 1267646760 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like two strings intersecting, one vertical one horizontal < 1267646770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: which is why it might change :) < 1267646771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You just don't want to change Mycology :) < 1267646780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make one of those markov bots < 1267646790 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it will change due to wraparound < 1267646798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: This wouldn't change anything since it sounds to me that the semantics are the same < 1267646802 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I just want to put text file in and get a bot out.. < 1267646810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I just meant in general :P < 1267646842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definition right now is only the "ray" extending outward. It needs to be the "line". Then maybe behaviour w.r.t semicolons will be easier to defnie < 1267646853 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not < 1267646854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well of course not ;-) < 1267646868 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, look, it makes perfect sense if you considers wraparound < 1267646885 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the IP will always wrap, sooner or later < 1267646898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It /is/ a ray, it just crosses over itself ;-P < 1267646905 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: I know it makes sense. The problem is that it needs to be worded in the form of an unambiguous definition. < 1267646907 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you could define a "wrapping ray" < 1267646916 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and then use that in there < 1267646924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have multiple velocities < 1267646927 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to keep ray and wrapping ray separate < 1267646929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ray can actually CROSS OVER ITSELF < 1267646930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1267646940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two sub-IPs collide and form one IP < 1267646943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the average velocity of both < 1267646950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is brilliant, do not deny it < 1267646955 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did this make me think of ghostbusters... < 1267646968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't cross the IPs! < 1267646973 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1267646977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..., Ray! < 1267647022 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so suggestion: non-wrapping ray can sometimes be useful (some fingerprints that write a 0"gnirts" into funge space, with a given delta for example) < 1267647034 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so just define wrapping and non-wrapping rays < 1267647039 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I'll just describe this procedurally < 1267647057 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, defined wrapping yet btw? < 1267647098 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that, a wrapping ray would be trivial < 1267647110 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then defer defining ; until you defined wrapping < 1267647188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A suggestion: Wrapping occurs when you hit an untraversed cell: all the cells specified that aren't just spaces around like befunge-98 wrapping rule at the start are traversed, anything p'd is traversed, < 1267647193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything leading to a traversed cell is traversed, < 1267647204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everything any IP has ever landed upon is traversed < 1267647220 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that doesn't allow for bounds to shrink < 1267647220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Leading" meaning "under the current velocity" < 1267647229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Yes it does, it's just an optimisation < 1267647232 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is important wrt p with space < 1267647237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since runs of spaces take 0 time, < 1267647240 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is a correctness issue for y < 1267647241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just set them to spaces < 1267647247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: So fix y < 1267647253 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, fix it how? < 1267647272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it not cause an incorrectness issue < 1267647296 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well since it *pushes bounds* on stack I don't see how you mean it can not depend on that < 1267647343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define it to be the maximum bounds ever < 1267647355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What breaks y here? < 1267647356 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there are good reasons not to < 1267647357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the size of the region of traversed cells at its maximum at any point in the past or present < 1267647368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Nothing < 1267647371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since bounds never shrink in my system < 1267647372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah < 1267647373 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and a lot of effort went into making sure it shrunk to be current minimum bounds < 1267647378 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267647391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any such shrinkage is just an optimisation < 1267647395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't expose that optimisation to y, duh < 1267647405 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no it isn't. it is a correctness issue according to mycology < 1267647409 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I agree < 1267647411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Befunge-98 < 1267647417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're specifying a new language here, hellooooooooo < 1267647428 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is a revision of it. < 1267647436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is the non-shrinkage happening < 1267647440 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is nicer to have bounds be the minimum bounding box at any time < 1267647454 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, read what he suggested above < 1267647454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just said "wrapping occurs at point x" < 1267647459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1267647469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me specify it more precisely. < 1267647477 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess you could have two sets of bounds < 1267647488 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Much as I want to, I don't think too much can be made backwards-incompatible. < 1267647501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This wouldn't be incompatible at all apart from some minor detail of y :-) < 1267647517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(speaking in general, not sure what the current discussion centers around) < 1267647518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would still not be incompatible IMO < 1267647519 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep, a backwards incompat one can be made as a different language, or as a feral fingerprint < 1267647532 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depending on the nature of the backwards incompat) < 1267647533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just defined the semantics of wrapping < 1267647539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is invisible to everything < 1267647546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What cells are "traversed" matters not since they're spaces < 1267647553 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true. y bounds might be separate < 1267647569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An impl is allowed to allocate 4G*4G and traverse every single space if it wants to < 1267647572 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The semantics are the same < 1267647582 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267647590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever the IP would advance to an /untraversed/ cell, it instead {wrapping stuff goes here}. An untraversed cell is a cell that is not traversed. A traversed cell is a cell that satisfies one or more of the following properties: * It was in the original program source and (insert stuff here to handle extraneous spaces, using Befunge-98 rules). * It has been advanced to by an IP at some point in the program without wrapping occur < 1267647590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1267647597 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how much is 4G*4G btw? < 1267647614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* If the IP continued on its current velocity, it would eventually reach a traversed cell without wrapping. < 1267647617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The end. < 1267647629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: 17-19 exabytes or so? < 1267647635 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267647645 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "square gigabytes" if you prefer :-P < 1267647646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ^ < 1267647655 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you forgot about one thing < 1267647656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this definition is general enough to withstand all the ferality from any fingerprint you wish. < 1267647663 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, writing a value to said cell < 1267647672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: "It has been modified over the course of the program" < 1267647678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Currently, 'p'ing spaces into untraversed locations doesn't change wrapping... I'm not sure if your defn does or not. It might not, but it's not obvious to me yet. < 1267647684 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you missed out on that < 1267647688 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, your message was cut off < 1267647689 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267647690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: k < 1267647700 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* It has been advanced to by an IP at some point in the program without wrapping occur" < 1267647700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If you p something really far away, then set off on a course towards it, you won't wrap until you hit it. < 1267647703 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1267647708 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it ended there < 1267647710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occuring. * It has been modified over the course of the program. < 1267647714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the OR, and the line after. < 1267647723 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, fix your client btw :P < 1267647753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using webchat.freenode.net in IE on someone else's machine because there's nowhere to put my iMac because I'm at somebody else's house because of reasons out of my control. < 1267647757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So shut up. < 1267647764 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267647768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, since Funge-98 programs can't rely on more than 4G*4G playfield, and still only have (effectively) a single stack, does this mean Befunge-98 is not TC? < 1267647779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1267647791 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, befunge-98 allows larger ones < 1267647793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack stack, dude < 1267647800 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stack-stack yes < 1267647801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Allows, but does not guarantee. < 1267647802 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err no < 1267647811 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, y can query size for each stack on stack stack < 1267647820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: stack stack = single stack with markers, I think. < 1267647835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Didn't we have this conversation?) < 1267647837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You can make a tape out of the stack stack using the stack stack ops. < 1267647843 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that is an implementation detail < 1267647850 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I have not implemented it like that < 1267647850 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That would save it. < 1267647854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: But it isn't specced that it has to be a result that meaningfully fits in a cell :-P < 1267647863 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh? < 1267647869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think my definition of traversable has any flaws. < 1267647881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically just a refinement and formalisation of the Befunge-98 wrapping rules. < 1267647881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: E.g. CCBI will happily push INT_MIN if you push 2 gigacells < 1267647884 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 0y not fit on stack? < 1267647893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Push INT_MIN for the size, I mean < 1267647896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In the 98 spec they're basically "It wraps like regular 2d space except not like that if you're in other dimensions. Happy/") < 1267647898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Happy? < 1267647966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think alise's suggestion might work. Of course y would need separate (always minimal) bounds < 1267647981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: C doesn't guarantee infinite memory either, does that mean it's not TC? < 1267647989 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except for ATHR, but that is feral so it is okay for it to say that bounds updates might take a while to propagate) < 1267648004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't consider C to be TC, no. < 1267648009 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc that has been discussed here < 1267648017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What /do/ you consider TC? :-) < 1267648044 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc C is TC with file io < 1267648044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you may also want to add: < 1267648048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Only languages that have infinite storage, yet have been implemented on finite computers. < 1267648060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's more like "does it provide an operation that could always access more memory *if* that memory was available"? Addressing memory with fixed-size pointers doesn't count. (but car and cdr do.) < 1267648067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that a cell is also traversable if a fingerprint deems it to be so < 1267648075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but feral fingerprints override the spec anyway, so possibly redundant?) < 1267648078 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, befunge-98 is TC then. bignum is allowed I argue < 1267648088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Only if you use dud values for bits < 1267648091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHich is breaking the spec < 1267648092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Which < 1267648100 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it doesn't forbid it either < 1267648109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to push the number of bits in a cell < 1267648109 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I mean -1 for number of bytes per cell < 1267648113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't, you push -1 < 1267648116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You violate the spec < 1267648116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1267648122 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes, but the spec doesn't forbid that either < 1267648136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't merely *not guarantee* infinite memory, it requires finite memory. < 1267648144 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1267648149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be arbitrarily large, but most have a bound. < 1267648154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Must. < 1267648227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: You have to push the bit width < 1267648228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not < 1267648230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is violating the spec < 1267648235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple as < 1267648243 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no < 1267648248 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if I define a language with two instructions, and the meanings of both instructions are implementation-defined, then that language is TC, because it is allowed for an implementation to treat the instructions as encoding a UTM. < 1267648261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I see. By that definition, whether Funge-98 is TC depends on what part of the spec you read ;-) < 1267648266 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, please read the spec < 1267648278 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env)." < 1267648280 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bits < 1267648285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing < 1267648289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bignum does not have -1 bytes per cell < 1267648291 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, one could define bytes differently < 1267648295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can't < 1267648303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even cpressey would consider that reasonable < 1267648308 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I define my bytes to be -(one bignum) < 1267648318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just admit you're violating the spec < 1267648331 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it's a corner case < 1267648343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, please step in and resolve this ridiculousness. < 1267648345 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree on that < 1267648352 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think we did come to the conclusion that C's file IO parts are vaguely enough defined that you can still have a conforming C implementation which has an infinite tape affixed to a file (so that you move around the tape by writing special operations into the file), and thusly make it TC, but you might not want to count that. < 1267648366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even believe anmaster_l is defending "I have -1 bytes per cell because I say the size of a byte is minus the size of one bignum." < 1267648390 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that was tongue in cheek -_- < 1267648397 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, whooosh < 1267648409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All discussion about Befunge is tongue-in-cheek < 1267648420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you were being just as ridiculous about refusing to admit you violate the spec before < 1267648436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, also, it wasn't funny insofar as it was the obvious thing to say, were your intention to make the most boring non-excuse there is. < 1267648438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes; personally I'd argue based on the incredible vagueness of "typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." (I mean, "etc."?), but that's not *so* convincing either. < 1267648447 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't think I violate the spec. But yes 0 might be better than -1 < 1267648468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, but aside from file IO, C is required to be an FSM. < 1267648472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to defer the only person who has any actual idea about the spec. < 1267648478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267648487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*defer to < 1267648490 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc. " <-- yes I represent infinity as -1 here < 1267648492 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/852357 < 1267648492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Pushing -1 for the bytes-per-cell value in y is verboten unless you actually have -1 bytes per cell. Yes? And a bignum does not take up -1 bytes per cell. < 1267648527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The spec says: "2. 1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." < 1267648533 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WITHOUT SAYING HOW TO REPRESENT INFINITY < 1267648538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1267648542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But -1 isn't infinity, it's -1. < 1267648547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty obvious. < 1267648562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So "infinity" is just bunk there.) < 1267648566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Do you happen to know Erlang's actual bignum format, by the way? I only know how GMP does it, and that particular library has a (surprisingly small) MAX_BIGNUM. < 1267648576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: You should push a function that, when accessed, gives the largest number thus far used by the program + 1 < 1267648579 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if I'm a Befunge program, with no knowledge of what could be interpreting me. < 1267648581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMP has MAX_BIGNUM? < 1267648583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowzers. < 1267648585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I run y. < 1267648590 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I look at the second cell. < 1267648595 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I see "-1" < 1267648603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What am I supposed to think? < 1267648609 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no idea actually < 1267648609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes; on a 32-bit system, the MAX_BIGNUM value itself takes 8 gigabytes of storage, though. It's a bit large, but definitely not infinite. < 1267648617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If I push values to the stack, I'll use less memory!" < 1267648618 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nice idea < 1267648628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Then The User will love me more!" < 1267648642 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :-D < 1267648686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a 64-bit system, the GMP MAX_BIGNUM actually takes only 16 gigabytes of storage, which is not so huge (if you compare to the addressable space); they use a signed 32-bit value as the counter of (in this case 64-bit) "limbs" of data bits. < 1267648698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267648704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use a pointer to the last one < 1267648714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, if you can't address the last bignum you can't access it < 1267648715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's foolproof < 1267648737 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what says it must be in one sequence= < 1267648740 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/?/ < 1267648752 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't it be allocated in large chunks < 1267648759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1267648765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Signed 32-bit value for a length? < 1267648777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's retarded. Just use size_t. < 1267648783 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you are near filling the address space, getting area after the end of the number might be hard < 1267648784 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The sign bit holds the sign of the actual value. < 1267648796 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ssize_t then? < 1267648798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: x_x < 1267648799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Just a nit: I don't like "at the edge of the world", it sounds like there's an actual edge on which you're standing, at the other side is the world and the other side nothing, but you've defined it as including that "nothing" as well < 1267648805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: not after < 1267648806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's... Silly. < 1267648807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you point to the last one < 1267648818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And they argue that 32 bits is "large enough" and saves four bytes of space from each GMP integer. Hey, I didn't make it. < 1267648826 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: would "over the edge" be better? < 1267648826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Which is why cpressey should use traversable cells >:( < 1267648837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRAVERSAAAAAAAAAAABLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLlle < 1267648850 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd prefer that, yes; in my brain the "edge" is the edgemost non-marker cell < 1267648854 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 4 bytes... Per *number*. < 1267648874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was that about "premature optimisation"? < 1267648888 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But the procedure itself appears... uncontroversial? < 1267648899 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you forgot to reflect the backtrack of the IP I think? < 1267648908 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so now it points in the wrong direction doesn't it < 1267648917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1267648919 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I misread < 1267648924 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's somewhat confusing that < 1267648956 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Nothing changes the delta, in this definition < 1267648961 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah < 1267648962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, GMP on a 64-bit system should be theoretically capable of handling a 2^64 byte number. < 1267648976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. 2^64-1 byte. < 1267648989 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that the backtrack's path is defined by the reflection of the delta < 1267649021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also right. < 1267649026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No overhead? < 1267649027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, I think it's correct. < 1267649031 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, all I can find is http://www.erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/advanced.html < 1267649039 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which includes the size of a fixnum in words < 1267649051 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bignum seems unlimited according to that < 1267649055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I could buy some sort of "compatibility with the 32-bit GMP values" implementation, but they change the actual limb size from 32 to 64 bits... < 1267649061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: >_> ... ... TRAVERSED CELLS < 1267649062 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not about to dig through beam's sources < 1267649076 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not seeing how they add anything, yet. < 1267649084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Is the IP the position? If not, I might say "IP's position" in at least a few places there < 1267649089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, they are, I think, more precise. < 1267649097 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how so? < 1267649098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fingerprints can do more Funky Stuff without breaking it < 1267649111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Yes, well, "It is implementation-dependent how much memory the Erlang data types and other items consume"; you could argue that the Erlang-language is capable of having "real" bignums therefore. < 1267649119 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, remember cpressey decided to not define unefunge/trefunge in 111 any more < 1267649125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for one thing < 1267649128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider < 1267649128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, certainly GMP's user-visible API doesn't restrict the value sizes, it's just their implementation of it. < 1267649131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267649132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267649134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y < 1267649136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267649137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267649138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267649138 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why no unefunge/trefunge? :-/ < 1267649140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y < 1267649148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spaces between x and y are traversable < 1267649155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they hit either x or y (when going diagonally) < 1267649156 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no one said they aren't? < 1267649157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually < 1267649159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But x, downwards, isn't < 1267649163 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unefunge/Trefunge-111 can be derived from Befunge-111 later) < 1267649170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it does not lead to any traversable cell without wrapping < 1267649170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1267649172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's more precise < 1267649176 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: IP is position, yes. < 1267649180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internal bounds aren't an integer coordinate < 1267649181 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also they might not. Consider the delta from the space in the middle < 1267649186 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it never hits x or y < 1267649190 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that can happen < 1267649193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: That's why traversability is defined based on the velocity < 1267649196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the damn definition < 1267649214 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, actually, what if there are no cells we can hit < 1267649215 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm using "EC" for "Execution Context" for "Collection of IP, delta, stack, etc" instead of overloading "IP" to mean all that < 1267649224 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like, some other thread overwrote all with spaces < 1267649227 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267649228 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some other IP < 1267649259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Works for me, although I'd probably prefer IP for the backwards-compatibility (even though -93 used PC, IIRC...) < 1267649265 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or kp was used to overwrite both k and p and anything else in the same "ray" < 1267649268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Then advancing never terminates < 1267649276 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I guess that is okay < 1267649286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'll mention the change PC -> IP -> EC in the notes. < 1267649322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: It's not great, but it's tolerable < 1267649337 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw, I consider IP something that has a position, a delta, a string-mode-flag, a stack-stack plus possibly a few other things < 1267649344 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you consider an IP nowdays then < 1267649356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What he said: the position < 1267649367 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267649375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an "instruction pointer", after all; it sort-of makes sense to be just the position. < 1267649390 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's arguable either way < 1267649417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traditionally an instruction pointer always behaves the same way and thus only "needs" to be the position < 1267649439 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas in Funge, much of what you do involves modifying the way the instruction pointer behaves < 1267649480 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what happens to an ec with delta 0? < 1267649491 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well... on the other hand, even "traditionally" there's the stack which is very much not part of the intstruction pointer; there's some other sort of "context" that groups the IP position and the stack. < 1267649501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Again, advancing doesn't terminate. < 1267649509 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, shouldn't it just do nothing < 1267649513 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and simply rest on it < 1267649524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Sure, there's other stuff, but the stack there isn't so associated with the IP < 1267649526 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it should execute the instruction on the current spot < 1267649530 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if that is space then what < 1267649531 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ^ < 1267649535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, delta 0 will execute the instruction at the IP over and over and over < 1267649551 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what if that instruction is a space though < 1267649552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, it's associated with the context, which is what should correspond to the 98 "IP" anyway. :p < 1267649554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It isn't in Funge either, but things like the delta are. < 1267649561 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and what about a j? :D < 1267649579 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: If it's a space advancing doesn't terminate. < 1267649584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: You should be able to figure it out from the spec so far < 1267649593 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not j, the other stuff < 1267649597 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well okay < 1267649606 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh needed to ctrl-refresh it < 1267649608 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1267649621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I guess you could argue for some sort of intermediate thing where IP is the (position, velocity) pair, and the rest are EC. If you wanted to, for some inexplicable reason. < 1267649643 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'd argue that the string mode is also part of the IP. < 1267649645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On that note, is there a good term for a (position, velocity) pair? < 1267649651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ray < 1267649664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hm, ok. < 1267649670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of < 1267649676 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And possibly I can argue enough things that it'll just be a matter of convenience to group the rest into the IP as well ;-) < 1267649684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Call it a particle, that would be silly-funny. < 1267649685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Agent < 1267649691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An agent is somewhere, and moves places. < 1267649698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A ray is part of a line which is finite in one direction, but infinite in the other. It can be defined by two points, the initial point, A, and one other, B. The ray is all the points in the line segment between A and B together with all points, C, on the line through A and B such that the points appear on the line in the order A, B, C." < 1267649702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's directed-acting to modify some state based on some other state. < 1267649703 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- Wikipedia < 1267649704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, an agent. < 1267649720 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We define it with A and B-A but that's equivalent. < 1267649746 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A (classical) particle has position and velocity too, though. And then you can easily make the position a probability density function and so on in the quantum extensions. :p < 1267649747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Also: TRAVERSABILITY NOW :| < 1267649752 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am being a bit unserious.) < 1267649757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What's the point? < 1267649760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agent particle < 1267649769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: More formal, more precise, easier to implement < 1267649776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More precise how? < 1267649779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it... yeah < 1267649786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267649787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267649788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y < 1267649802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bounds here aren't rectangular < 1267649807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the cell between x and y is traversable < 1267649821 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: For a typical sort of ray, though, ((0, 0), (1, 1)) and ((0, 0), (2, 2)) would be the same ray; but no-one would claim those to be equivalent for a particle. < 1267649825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How is this "more precise" < 1267649838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it is, so there < 1267649847 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really have to define what you mean by "precise" :-P < 1267649859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's probably equivalent, but it adds the burden of distinguishing some cells from others < 1267649870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw dang; I waited ~three hours for fungot's Twitter-poster to actually say anything, and then it bailed out due to a typo. < 1267649870 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: o jeh, o naw, o naw, o naw, o naw. morfoatari, was charged with manslaughter. < 1267649888 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267649888 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* < 1267649896 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267649937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are the beginnings of a new language. < 1267649948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morfoatari means "was charged with manslaughter". < 1267649958 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, an IP may also contain IP specific data. < 1267649964 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267649966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail < 1267649971 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fingerprint specific data < 1267649972 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1267649981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I postulate that either manslaughter = atari, orfo = charged with, and m = past tense, < 1267649982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, < 1267649992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foat = manslaughter, ari = charged with, mor = past tense < 1267649998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Yes, the fingerprint-semantics-stack-set -- that's mentioned in the defns < 1267650005 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also: unloading a fingerprint isn't well defined. It might be partly unloaded < 1267650029 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I meant, per-fingerprint data < 1267650035 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as in special flags for MODE < 1267650036 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1267650041 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unloading fingerprints will be precisely defined to have the same broken behaviour as -98, probably < 1267650055 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: That's the fingerprint's business, not the EC's. < 1267650062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And what of "o jeh", and "o naw"? < 1267650063 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't think 98 behaviour is actually broken as such < 1267650074 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, "stupid behaviour" < 1267650086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: jeh/naw are probably yes/no. < 1267650088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o = it's, I bet. < 1267650088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's stupid either :-P < 1267650089 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I liked it :) < 1267650094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So It's yes = it's good, it's naw = it's bad < 1267650100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's good, he was charged! But oh the downsides. Bad bad bad. < 1267650115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what else to call something where you can unload it and it's still there < 1267650133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider a newspaper article: "O jeh! O naw, o naw, o naw, o naw. Morfoatari [the criminal but the implications ...]." < 1267650137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not unloading "it" ;-) < 1267650138 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see it as set operations < 1267650146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiset < 1267650172 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you're unloading all the instructions that are defined in it, no matter what they actually do right now. < 1267650174 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, let A and B be sets of the letters each fingerprint implements < 1267650190 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then you have operations like A\B < 1267650191 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's what you want, it makes more sense to just... list those instructions < 1267650222 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If AAAA and BBBB define the same sets of letters, unloading either has the same semantics < 1267650254 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267650269 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To add one data point, I have a mild dislike of that; can't quite quantify the amount, but not large. < 1267650270 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's the new *new* Newspeak. < 1267650297 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I quite like the current behaviour, and I see nothing wrong with it < 1267650314 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I might make a fingerprint that allows sending fingerprint instructions between ips or such < 1267650327 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey in efunge I could create fingerprints on the fly < 1267650332 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised this < 1267650345 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are basically a stack of lambdas < 1267650349 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(funs) < 1267650370 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, they can resolve to a function in a module (what currently happens) < 1267650389 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing prevents a complete lambda being pushed there < 1267650437 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about CR for file loading? < 1267650454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Not supported, use a text converter. < 1267650474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CR for file loading? < 1267650483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean mac-style line breaks? < 1267650497 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed that what what anmaster_l meant < 1267650505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not supported? < 1267650506 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, aww, I went to great lengths ensuring any combination of LF CRLF and CR mixed for different lines in a single file worked < 1267650517 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so CRLF is also unsupported I guess? < 1267650529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "file" is a more abstract concept < 1267650541 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last I checked mycology was encoded in CRLF < 1267650555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That exposed a bug in rcfunge IIRC < 1267650559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which reflected on CR < 1267650571 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so basically it would use native line ending always? < 1267650573 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can't remember which, one of the earlier interps. < 1267650577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is nothing stopping an implementation from providing loading of files in other formats as an option < 1267650583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: No, always 10. < 1267650585 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would actually handling non-native formats be allowed? < 1267650589 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267650599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's massively inconvenient for windows users < 1267650606 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but that would need to be an explicit option? < 1267650630 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I don't think is a good idea requiring) < 1267650650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267650660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's just payback for "you people" spewing all those CRs everywhere. < 1267650679 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the SGML spaces + ticks had a somewhat tricky semantics iirc < 1267650688 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Deewiant is the right person to ask here iirc < 1267650698 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what he thought was the best idea < 1267650699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really mind myself since I use vim which can easily save in whatever format I want < 1267650704 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people /do/ use notepad < 1267650713 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And programs default to CRLF < 1267650718 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1267650724 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/c// < 1267650728 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, only on windows < 1267650739 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I was talking about all along < 1267650750 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267650810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, what about s? The first time I read it, I assumed it pops a value from the stack, writes it to (pos+delta), then continues from the just-written value, but I guess interpreters generally tend to skip it, like ' does? (It's "defined" to be "mirror image" of '.) < 1267650818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only trickiness that comes to mind re. SGML spaces is in what order they are meant to work < 1267650836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I was just hoping for a handy "execute the op currently on top of stack" command. < 1267650845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, where are you after spending three ticks (" included) in "x y" < 1267650854 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1267650860 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where were you? I forgot < 1267650870 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're on the y < 1267650884 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems most sensible to me anyway < 1267650898 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267650899 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1267650904 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you not be on the y? < 1267650910 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267650914 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enter Stringmode, Push `x`, Push ` ` < 1267650916 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about *on* the third tick < 1267650923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You /could/ be on the second space, and you'd skip it only next tick < 1267650924 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then skip over the second space? < 1267650944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was cause for some confusion anyway < 1267650950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might misremember, maybe there was some other issue. < 1267650956 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, iirc it exposed a bug in ccbi < 1267650966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after we found out it wasn't in cfunge as first thought < 1267650981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I do think I've always done it the same way < 1267650986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You need a sort of a "read-ahead" in stringmode to be on the "y" after the third tick, whereas for the other way (skip extra spaces only on the second tick) you don't. < 1267650998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the whole "ticks" thing only makes sense when there are multiple ECs, and multiple ECs are optional, I'm thinking of just dropping it. < 1267651010 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but you had a bug that hid a bug in mycology in the tests related to i < 1267651011 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1267651013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That'd make everything multithreaded unspecified... which sucks < 1267651030 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, I've always thought of it as execute-then-advance-to-next-thing-that-can-be-executed (stringmode or no) < 1267651053 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed < 1267651056 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's a more general issue I think < 1267651082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may've done it as loop { advance-to-next-executable, execute, move by delta } < 1267651088 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "SGML" that means, push space then advance to next (non-space) thing that can be pushed... I don't see any lookahead involved < 1267651107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: See what I just said < 1267651132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do it as advance-to-next-executable, loop { execute, move by delta, advance-to-next-executable } there's no problem < 1267651139 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny thing... memtest86+ claims L1 speed is 16394 MB/s, L2 speed is 1123 MB/s, and memory speed is 1132 MB/s < 1267651140 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1267651151 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main memory would be faster than L2? < 1267651172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1267651288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to be nitpicky, you could complain about this case: IP 1 executes whatever and moves to location X, which contains some executable-looking instruction; then IP 2 overwrites that with space; now what should IP 1 do? A literal reading of the spec is quite clear: " The IP executed is the one at the current position of the IP. Only after that does the IP moves by its delta to a new position." < 1267651316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, the spec is equally clear: "-- space -- cannot ever be truly executed, in the sense of it taking up a tick and doing something." < 1267651389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at least my interpreters have opted to possibly move the IP even before execution, if the current position happens to be a space or a ;. < 1267651414 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I handle that separately < 1267651427 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think it can't happen < 1267651442 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I handle space in my execute_instruction < 1267651442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can, if a child IP overwrites your position with a space < 1267651452 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a loop that goes forward looking for next non-space < 1267651457 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm < 1267651462 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But does it then execute the next instruction? < 1267651469 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it does after < 1267651473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On that tick < 1267651475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the next < 1267651478 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1267651485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's all good :-P < 1267651487 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I return "continue with same ip" < 1267651494 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "continue with next" < 1267651498 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I've broken and unbroken this many times in CCBI < 1267651504 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have copied that sort of behaviour from some other interpreter, yes. < 1267651506 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, same I think < 1267651517 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is < 1267651526 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't search forward at the end of the cycle < 1267651530 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at the start of the cycle < 1267651542 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end of the cycle I just move forward one delta < 1267651557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's one of two alternatives < 1267651569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not entirely specified which one is right, I think. < 1267651580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's a bit unclear too, since the "move afterwards" part of the spec only says you should move "as specified by the delta". < 1267651585 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only when I'm about to execute again I check if it is space, then skip forward and execute whatever is after < 1267651589 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming non-string mode < 1267651591 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267651599 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(string mode would be somewhat different) < 1267651609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you opt for the literal reading of that first part ("you must execute whatever is at the current position, and only move after that") you can't do it like that. < 1267651622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure anyone does, though. < 1267651636 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, j would be rather different then for example < 1267651645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing, it sas that you have to execute the "IP -- at the current position of the IP". < 1267651646 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, especially kj < 1267651650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which doesn't really sense make. < 1267651655 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this was discussed a few days ago < 1267651656 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in here < 1267651864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's a good point. < 1267651913 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "search" does have to occur at the beginning, before the first instruction is first executed anyway. < 1267651953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it might have to happen if some other EC p'ed a space under the IP. < 1267651956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I was implicitly demonstrating in my second loop {} style thing < 1267651974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's clearer now. I'll make a note of it. < 1267651996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what about that s?-) (Okay, okay, I'll shut up about the s.) < 1267652009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the s is pretty obvious even in -98 :-P < 1267652045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I didn't think there was anything tooooo controversial about s? < 1267652086 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed I agree < 1267652130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a patent on the linked list. Why is there a patent on the linked list. < 1267652242 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to protect innovation! < 1267652261 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there must be prior art < 1267652269 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that patent is very old < 1267652274 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the patent is invalid < 1267652275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Fairly recent. < 1267652284 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then that patent is invalid < 1267652294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's tons of prior art. Like, *nearly every program*. < 1267652313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but validity of patents doesn't matter in the US courts. < 1267652320 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written programs that don't use linked lists. < 1267652336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cpressey, anmaster_l: Oh, don't be like that. "s -- pops a value off the stack and writes it into (position + delta)." It doesn't say anything about advancing the pointer any extra, which made it (to me, anyway) sound like it'd be a fancy instruction that'd let you execute what's on top of stack, since (position + delta) is where the execution would normally continue from. < 1267652340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want lament as my patent attorney < 1267652341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes, but linked lists are an absurdly common data structure. < 1267652351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only get the skipping behaviour from the vague "it's a mirror image of '" description. < 1267652364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's patently stupid. < 1267652374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: See, I don't think it's that vague ;-P < 1267652387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It doesn't define what a "mirror image" is. :p < 1267652413 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, I don't think it was intended to skip over. "Mirror image" is merely, uh, imagery. < 1267652437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't? O_o < 1267652449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, see! Currently de-facto it does skip over, so it's not usable as-is as an "execute what's on stack" thing. < 1267652461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so it's not a huge space-waster to put a tight curve in there, but still. < 1267652471 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what? < 1267652538 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Executing what's on stack is trivial anyway, err... aycy+bydy+p (only works in Befunge) < 1267652543 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or just some # and j magic < 1267652548 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And needs a few more adds < 1267652551 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway ;-P < 1267652552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember. < 1267652570 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I'd call "trivial". < 1267652583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data [a] = a : [a] | [];head (x:_)=x;tail(_:xs)=xs < 1267652584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was jesting < 1267652589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooops, I'm violating a patent! < 1267652619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were *supposed* to be "store left" and "store right" instructions, and corresponding "fetch", that would store stuff beside the path instead of in it < 1267652620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to admit that I haven't ever written a program where I'd actually felt the need to execute what's on stack... but it *could* happen! < 1267652644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was in a 99 proposal < 1267652684 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 < 1267652690 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, was that a typo for 98? < 1267652694 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: k should have taken its instruction from the stack < 1267652697 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: no < 1267652701 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm okay < 1267652715 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard about the 99 stuff before < 1267652720 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :96 and 97 yes < 1267652737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because no one was interested in anyone's ideas for changes after 98 < 1267652747 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267652751 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was all kinds of stuff proposed < 1267652771 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I think they are good ideas, but I also think they should probably be a set of fungoids < 1267652776 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then everyone is happy < 1267652896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the current s, I don't see any specifically elegant way of using it for stack-execution. sX^ and then v< on top of X^ works, but all the looping makes the IP dizzy. If you just jump backwards without changing delta, it's hard to avoid ending up in a loop; you can't do something like s#vX< because the s won't reach up to the X. < 1267652966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s;> #;X#< < 1267652978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Won't that just overwrite the ;? < 1267652988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe :-P < 1267653008 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be cool if it didn't tho < 1267653025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a non-cardinal delta you can do it semi-elegantly; assuming dx=2, dy=0 for example you could just svX <. < 1267653048 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is X there? < 1267653054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"any" < 1267653056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: The thing that gets overwritten by s. < 1267653059 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267653089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But setting a non-cardinal delta involves an ugly vector. < 1267653113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval is supposed to be ugly < 1267653124 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could also do 0-2 0 'X #vsX x right? < 1267653130 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1267653156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so. < 1267653165 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267653169 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that 02- < 1267653171 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1267653201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though 20x svX < is shorter. I just don't like non-cardinal deltas at all, due to theological observations. < 1267653216 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267653228 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267653228 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267653229 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1267653241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the old saying goes: God created the cardinal deltas; all else is the work of man. < 1267653246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They fell less holy, you see. < 1267653345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The all-pervading nature of the program counter"; what a lovely section title from Wikipedia. < 1267653358 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so Cardinalidae is more holy? Huh < 1267653383 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(algorithm: go to wikipedia disambig page, pick first from list) < 1267653417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, bishops move diagonally... < 1267653425 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267653455 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a related joke I saw somewhere. < 1267653463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As a chess grandmaster, what's your view on America's war strategy?" "Send in the clergy! They can move diagonally!" < 1267653481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, SMBC. < 1267653492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably where it was. < 1267653509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was. < 1267653558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267653694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is oklofubp < 1267653712 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 1267653818 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1267653846 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267653856 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267653972 0 :angstrom!~anon@unaffiliated/angstrom JOIN :#esoteric < 1267654021 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi guys. how are the extensions { '#', '!' } actually used in brainfuck? < 1267654076 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/sbin/brainfuck < 1267654118 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "#! /bin/bash" ? < 1267654335 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: my question refers to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Extensions but what does "print the content of the first few memory cells" mean? kinda vague to me.. '!' should, if i'm right, write the char after it from the source into the current cell < 1267654476 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom: I think # is basically "Debug", and not meant to be portable in any serious way. < 1267654517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen # used as a breakpoint instruction in BF too. < 1267654524 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas everything before "!" is interpreted as program, and everything after it as input (for interpreters that don't have the usual concept of stdin etc.) < 1267654527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ! is only used as an "end of code" marker. < 1267654556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.,]!hello < 1267654557 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1267654559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like that. < 1267655313 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic. i ask, because i'm currently implementing my own bf interpreter, and just wondered, whether there is a mutual understanding of extensions.. < 1267655403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ignore them, really. < 1267655461 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1267655462 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a command for doing something like printf("%u", *(ptr + cell)); would come in handy though < 1267655506 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. "^4" which then would print the int stored at (4) < 1267655525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then add and document it. < 1267655542 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!! ... (this is an infinite stream) ... < 1267655552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. :) < 1267655586 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not implementing it in bf tho < 1267655704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's turtles all the way down. < 1267655822 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267656384 0 :alise!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PING google.com (209.85.229.104): 56 data bytes < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=0 ttl=49 time=445.559 ms < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=458.109 ms < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=1841.185 ms < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=3 ttl=49 time=847.884 ms < 1267656400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=4 ttl=49 time=999.323 ms < 1267656400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=5 ttl=49 time=365.233 ms < 1267656401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1267656433 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267656433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The domain name misogyno.us is available. < 1267656435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Explanation: Now I am on my iMac, using this BT FON thing where you pay £5 and get 24 hours of interwebs via Wi-Fi. It is slow; I think the router is some way away.) < 1267656448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other computer is connected wiredly; but with a winmodem. < 1267656454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit sucks. < 1267656464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :D < 1267656525 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is coprophago.us , but I don't know what that word is and it scares me ... < 1267656537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very bad ping, very bad bandwidth. < 1267656538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you don't? < 1267656539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Poo-sexual. < 1267656544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like our dear friend coppro. < 1267656550 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pooppy) < 1267656558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys what's my lag? < 1267656568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping is 1.29 seconds to Gregor :D < 1267656568 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: PING < 1267656576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Uh, use CTCP ping :P < 1267656578 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise help < 1267656581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: NO < 1267656582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wut < 1267656587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :( < 1267656612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your ping is n/a no matter how many times I tell my client to ping you :) < 1267656616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Client doesn't respond to PINGs? < 1267656651 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 4 seconds < 1267656658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet < 1267656668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The log for today is loading in tiny stutters < 1267656674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing is shared with whoever owns the hub apparently, and i'm capped < 1267656682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my 3g stick refused to top up, so... < 1267656701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION joins #ubuntu for the lulz
< 1267656727 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is scared to venture anywhere besides #esoteric
< 1267656730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I /just/ managed to connect to MSN... < 1267656762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're the nicest channel now that #haskell has gone all big. < 1267656767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even nicer if I left :) < 1267656882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man #haskell is so fucking awful seriously < 1267656889 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that channel is a pit of fail < 1267656906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else to say other than the usual "Haskell sucks" stuff? < 1267656911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was < 1267656912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realise Coq is so much better and all but please. < 1267656913 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not anymore < 1267656919 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's coq got to do with it < 1267656925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you seem to like Coq. :P < 1267656963 0 :alise_!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267656963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267656967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267656973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell sucks < 1267656988 0 :alise!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the most reliable connection. < 1267657012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could someone pastebin the last, say, 100 lines of today's log? < 1267657016 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Is there anything you feel positively about? < 1267657017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, since I last left for a while. < 1267657021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't seem to load the entire log. < 1267657031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Negativity! < 1267657081 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant I wish there was < 1267657082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267657158 0 :alise!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just ridiculous. < 1267657185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone said anything? < 1267657198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No. < 1267657211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's great. Probably they did but the lag stopped me seeing it :) < 1267657217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just top up the damn 3g stick < 1267657221 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And previously it was mostly very boring stuff about Befunge spec. < 1267657230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aight. < 1267657230 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267657304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I missed this one. < 1267657305 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4:55:49 PM) lament: haskell sucks < 1267657323 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're in top form today. < 1267657399 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657403 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657477 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, Wouter took free variables (and thus closures) out of Aardappel after deciding they didn't add anything to it (function values can be expressed more directly as term-rewrite rules.) < 1267657495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it does have local rules. < 1267657507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what I'm thinking about. < 1267657510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1267657533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267657710 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.18 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aardappel doesn't treat the local rules as part of the term, though, afaict. So they can't be rewritten by other rules. < 1267657892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topped up. < 1267657912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think there are only 2 levels, local and global. No nested scoping beyond that. Could be wrong though. < 1267657920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1267658058 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267658160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think deltas should modify, but not overwrite, the velocity. < 1267658177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, < should change (1,2) to (0,3) < 1267658182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, if I have my order correct < 1267658249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think that idea was kicked around once... so, like, >> > > > > > causes the IP to speed up to the right < 1267658262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming it's already going right < 1267658268 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accelerating >s! < 1267658275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much < 1267658281 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes turning corners interesting < 1267658282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION accelerates cpressey's >
< 1267658283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, I think it'd behave normally just for ^/v/ < 1267658289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno how, though < 1267658293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a sort of generalisation < 1267658301 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur < 1267658319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sups < 1267658324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sad < 1267658335 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did I study so much computers it was a waste of time < 1267658342 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267658354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? nobody gives a fuck if I can implement CPS conversion using delimited continuations ? < 1267658417 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whine whien whien < 1267658424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267658429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy is having some sort of crisis where she disowns all of CS :P < 1267658434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#math is that way < 1267658438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and takes up linguistics! :D < 1267658440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#math is awful < 1267658443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math actually < 1267658445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so she says < 1267658447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am learning a little bit of linguistics < 1267658448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is awful < 1267658450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*maths < 1267658455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: augur hates you now < 1267658460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPRESSEY YOU HOLD YOUR TONGUE < 1267658460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>O < 1267658465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just read the intro books < 1267658477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come, my dear, let me teach you bout some linguisticd < 1267658480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but alise I'm not good at math < 1267658518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt4JZyssxOQ < 1267658541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmfao < 1267658547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a horrible demonstration XD < 1267658670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his bothmer person has a bunch of stupid videos < 1267658671 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267658686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is nor a homomorphism: /bother burns a sheet of paper" < 1267658688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not** < 1267658726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: computing's cool man < 1267658757 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267658802 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer science is the worst < 1267658818 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't decide if it's math, logic, or electrical engineering < 1267658823 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today, I mostly paste libraries together. So do you, most likely, if you work in software. Doesn’t that seem anticlimactic? We did all those courses on LR grammars and concurrent software and referentially transparent functional languages. We messed about with Prolog, Lisp and APL. We studied invariants and formal preconditions and operating system theory. Now how much of that do we use? A huge part of my job these days seems to be impedence-ma < 1267658841 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck, paste libraries together? I WISH! < 1267658872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modern programming is 90% troubleshooting and 10% acting like the bugs that are there don't matter. < 1267658880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh great MissPiggy read a sub-par lol cs is not programming < 1267659068 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: impedence-ma < 1267659088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: look cs has a boring brother called programming < 1267659092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mathematics doesn't even have a boring brother < 1267659112 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics also has a boring brother called programming? < 1267659126 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math is nothing but the lesbian sister of biology < 1267659128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really :P < 1267659135 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics has a "special" brother called CS. < 1267659248 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267659343 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a huge proponent of "Agile mathematics" < 1267659387 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the kind where you need to perform autofellatio? < 1267659521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267659672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267659682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it. < 1267659721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1267659847 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep thinking it's some obscure Pair Programming reference. < 1267659850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the connection to mathematics seems a little weak < 1267659893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that wouldn't be auto- would it. < 1267660006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other side of the coin is http://www.flounder.com/bricks.htm < 1267660045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. Programming has a useless brother called CS < 1267660177 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was funny about the comma inside the quote < 1267660378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever wrote that — ok so I haven't read it yet — has probably used quicksort. Or O(n) notations to decide on an algorithm. < 1267660380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... I could go on. < 1267660418 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his point is not that CS is useless < 1267660418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK, so the analogy isn't quite right. < 1267660433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his point is that CS education does not train programmers < 1267660434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah, seems not. < 1267660439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming as a profession has a useless brother called CS Education. < 1267660440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or CS, in most cases. < 1267660485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, programming is to CS as civil engineering is to physics ... the fact that civil engineers need to take physics classes doesn't mean that they're dealing directly in theoretical physics every day. < 1267660519 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good analogy < 1267660534 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is all great but none of it helps me :| < 1267660551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you want to be helped with? :P < 1267660561 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know :( < 1267660579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time travel is out of the question < 1267660580 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy needs metahelp < 1267660602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267660604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quicksort is a fun sorting algorithm. < 1267660627 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If you're confident that you can develop the technology to travel backwards in time within your lifetime, then time travel is not out of the question. Just develop it, then send it back to your younger self, and you'll still have your entire life to do whatever else you wanted to do. < 1267660631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love sorting algorithms that perform at their worst when their input is already sorted. < 1267660672 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but I don't beleive in time travel < 1267660682 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So short-sighted :P < 1267660683 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe it's possible to send me back in time < 1267660696 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine almost nobody believes in time travel. < 1267660710 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would just be duplicating me, and destroying the original < 1267660717 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't actually be going through time, I'd just think I was < 1267660720 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1267660728 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an irrelevant distinction. < 1267660740 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, what makes you think that when you walk around, you're not just duplicating yourself and destroying the original? < 1267660742 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor irrelevant to whom? < 1267660762 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever it is that makes you think that, it should also make you open to the idea that time travel wouldn't do that. < 1267660763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irrelevant in every sense, you're existing a distinction with no physical consequences. < 1267660769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1267660775 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're creating a distinction with no physical consequences.