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01:32:25 <Sgeo> "As the only entrant in the category, Cougar Energy Shot for Women White is both the best and the worst energy drink for women of 2009. I tend to lean more toward it being the worst."
01:33:09 <oerjan> the glass is half empty, and that is a _good_ thing in this case.
01:42:55 <Sgeo> I talk about energy drinks, and my dad suggests trying caffeine pills
01:44:42 <Sgeo> Pathetic that I needed the joke explained to me :(
01:48:46 <uorygl_> Nah, it's actually not a very clear joke. >.>
01:50:04 * oerjan considered the "explanation" the punchline, actually
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01:56:53 <Sgeo> "As the only entrant in the category, Cougar Energy Shot for Women White is both the best and the worst energy drink for women of 2009. I tend to lean more toward it being the worst."
01:56:57 <Sgeo> erm, wrong paste
01:57:05 <Sgeo> "What caffeine does is make a person lose water, which in effect makes a person drink plenty of water to reciprocate, thus minimizing the feeling of hunger"
01:57:17 <Sgeo> I don't think I can afford to have my hunger lessened :(
01:59:37 * coppro dislikes energy drinks, including caffeine, generally
02:04:58 <oklopol> this is so cool, i've been playing my guitar since you said the caffeine and the hunger thing, and i was reading those sentences all that time, then the same second i stop playing i suddenly understand what the sentences mean
02:19:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: Caffeine does not work that way.
02:22:13 <Sgeo> Blame http://www.howtodothings.com/health-fitness/how-to-use-caffeine-pills-safely
02:24:50 <Sgeo> So how does it work?
02:25:11 <Sgeo> And why should I trust an Internet stranger [who admittedly I'm friends with] over an Internet stranger, one way or the other?
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02:26:25 <pikhq> Caffeine is a mild diuretic, causing people to be likely to urinate more. Most caffeine delivery forms contain sufficient water to compensate for this.
02:26:58 <pikhq> Also, water does not minimise the feeling of hunger much; goes through the digestive tract too quickly.
02:28:22 <oerjan> I always add a couple drops of cyanide to my coffee to negate the urinating effect; works splendidly.
02:28:30 <Sgeo> Caffeine pills wouldn't contain sufficient water..
02:28:48 <Sgeo> Doubt that that's enough of a reason to go with energy drinks though
02:28:55 <pikhq> I suppose caffeine could *possibly* stimulate you enough to cause a mild weight loss affect. Still, it ain't going to do much.
02:29:22 <pikhq> Caffeine pills don't have sufficient flavor, IMO.
02:29:56 <Sgeo> I could always drink a sod.. wait, no. If I take one form of caffeine in a day, I will _not_ take another
02:30:18 * pikhq takes a rather absurd amount of caffeine.
02:30:52 <Sgeo> Until recently, all my caffeine came from soda
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06:20:31 <zzo38> I noticed I have to use the view-source function in my browser to view thw log because otherwise it treated it as a application/octet-stream and trying to override it didn't work either
06:20:54 <zzo38> Are all pure-state density matrix also valid as projector matrix?
06:21:14 <zzo38> Also, are all pure-state density matrix singular?
06:22:02 <zzo38> Is the identity matrix the only unitary projector matrix?
06:22:10 <oerjan> density matrix is v*v, right?
06:22:30 <zzo38> A pure-state density matrix for state |x> is |x><x|
06:22:38 <oerjan> right. yes that's a projection.
06:22:50 <oerjan> i don't recall what singular is.
06:23:05 <zzo38> I read the definitions of those things in Penrose's book. So I thought about it and think these might be true
06:23:15 <zzo38> Singular is a matrix with determinant is zero
06:23:31 <oerjan> a unitary projection matrix has all eigenvalues 1, so yes it must be identity.
06:23:57 <oerjan> in dimension > 1, then yes.
06:24:42 <oerjan> in a basis where the pure state is the first member, the matrix takes the form upper left = 1, rest 0
06:24:55 <oerjan> and everything else can be changed to that with a basis change.
06:25:08 <oerjan> (which preserves determinants)
06:25:47 <zzo38> My logic was a bit different: I had read previously on this channel what unitary is. A unitary matrix has its conjugate transpose also as its inverse, therefore multiplied by its conjugate transpose must make the identity matrix. A projector matrix squares to itself and is also its own conjugate transpose. Therefore, it would have to be the identity matrix to be both projector and unitary.
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06:27:18 <zzo38> Is my logic correct?
06:27:25 <oerjan> p = pp = p^*p = 1. yes.
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06:29:21 <zzo38> I have tried various pure-state density matrices to see if they were projectors and in fact they were, so then I tried to see if that was the general case.
06:31:14 <oerjan> (|x><x|)^* = (<x|^*)(|x>^*) = |x><x|
06:31:41 <zzo38> I also played D&D today. Sometimes other people in the game think my character is really a big cockroach
06:31:53 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I can see that
06:32:26 <zzo38> That's what the notations <x| and |x> means
06:32:49 <oerjan> (|x><x|)(|x><x|) = |x>(<x||x>)<x| = |x>1<x| = |x><x|
06:33:08 <zzo38> And yes now I can see how it makes it projector.
06:33:12 <oerjan> because <x||x> is 1*1 matrix
06:33:36 <zzo38> Yes, and if normalized <x|x>=1 now it makes sense!
06:35:23 <zzo38> I am glad you understand this stuff, because the people I know personally, don't know this stuff, so I have to explain it to them.
06:35:51 <zzo38> So they can't answer my question, but you can.
06:36:42 <zzo38> Someone gave me Penrose's book as a present (I think a birthday present), actually.
06:38:22 <zzo38> Something I did in the D&D game today reminds me of the "Projector For Dematerializing Any Matter For One Minute".
06:39:44 <oerjan> huh - is that also something from penrose's book?
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06:39:54 <zzo38> It is something unrelated
06:40:02 <zzo38> http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=33%3Aweird-science-index&id=485%3Aprojector-for-dematerializing-any-matter-for-one-minute&Itemid=24
06:41:29 <oerjan> Most. Cumbersome. Product. Name. Ever. indeed :D
06:42:06 <zzo38> Another question: Do you ever tell anyone to "O, go drink hydroxic acid"
06:42:49 <oerjan> unless hydroxic acid is another name for dihydrogen monoxide, i doubt it
06:43:11 <zzo38> Hydroxic acid is another name for dihydrogen monoxide.
06:43:26 <zzo38> But do you ever say "O, go drink dihydrogen monoxide" to anyone?
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06:43:47 <oerjan> well i don't usually say that under any name, really
06:44:15 <oerjan> now hydroxic acid seems a misnomer given that it is not actually acidic...
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06:45:55 <pikhq> oerjan: It is both an acid and a base.
06:46:15 <oerjan> "Both acid and alkali names exist ... because it is amphoteric (able to react both as an acid or an alkali)."
06:46:19 <pikhq> Though the term is actually "hydric acid".
06:46:57 <oerjan> "Other systematic names ... include hydroxic acid, hydroxylic acid, and hydrogen hydroxide."
06:47:08 <pikhq> Mmkay. There we go.
06:49:09 <zzo38> The spell which reminded me of that Superman comic was Time Hop. And I had manifester level 10 so the duration was 10 rounds (= 1 minute).
06:50:00 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxic_acid#Systematic_naming
06:51:06 <pikhq> zzo38: 'Tis a fun spell.
06:51:39 <zzo38> Yes, psionic power. Right
06:52:42 <AnMaster> <zzo38> But do you ever say "O, go drink dihydrogen monoxide" to anyone? <-- no, but I never say "O, "
06:52:51 <AnMaster> other than that, I could do so
06:53:37 <oerjan> O go thou and imbibe of the dihydrogen monoxide
06:59:03 * AnMaster doesn't have time to check a dictionary atm
06:59:08 <HackEgo> * absorb: take in, also metaphorically; "The sponge absorbs water well"; "She drew strength from the minister's words" \ * assimilate: take (gas, light or heat) into a solution \ * drink: take in liquids; "The patient must drink several liters each day"; "The children like to drink soda"
06:59:28 <AnMaster> I first read sponge as "spoon"
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07:04:07 <zzo38> I used: the "Time Hop" power twice, the natural capability to create spider webs twice, "Amanuensis" spell once, "Object Reading" once, and "Dimension Door" power once. My brother's character is a human ninja so they used ethereal and see invisible, a lot this time. It is a useful way for him to trick the bartender.
07:10:12 <zzo38> Have you plaed "Xnazzyball"?
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07:29:05 <oerjan> i think i have a graph for which your algorithm doesn't work
07:30:06 <augur> for which node? :P
07:30:22 <augur> ive tested it well enough on that graph
07:30:34 <oerjan> well then the pdf you posted was not the right algorithm
07:30:43 <augur> yes, it was. you're doing it wrong. :)
07:31:43 <oerjan> my intuitive reading of your pseudocode is that you remove the vertex with the smallest number of (non-u) neighbors.
07:31:59 <oerjan> leaving only the upper left and lower right for the next step
07:32:25 <oerjan> so if that's not what it does, the pseudocode needs some clarifying.
07:32:57 <oerjan> (well the upper left is of course just implied)
07:33:22 <augur> what happens is you find the smallest set of neighbors neighbors
07:34:24 <augur> so you go from u to a,b,c
07:34:49 <augur> then from a to u,c; from b to u,c; and from c to u,a,b
07:35:06 <oerjan> the first pairs = {(a,{c}),(b,{c}),(c,{a,b})}
07:37:03 <oerjan> dropped = {(a,{c}),(b,{c})}, after = {(c,{a,b})}
07:37:40 <augur> so first pairs is that yes
07:38:40 <oerjan> then the for loop changes after to {(c,{})}
07:39:24 <augur> eh.. oh, you're right. let me see if my actual code is like that
07:41:55 <augur> aha you're right. my algorithm doesn't work!
07:42:09 <augur> i couldve sworn i've run it on graphs like this before tho.
07:44:03 <oerjan> note that if you start with a or b instead it probably works
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07:46:48 <augur> meh. whatever. im not interested in the algorithm in any real sense except to make this pos induction thing work :P
07:49:19 <augur> but i want the POS induction to work fast, so.. :p
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13:32:51 <oklopol> if oerjan keeps owning augur like that, sooner or later he'll start believing when he says he's wrong, which is a scary thought. for verying meanings of he.
13:34:37 <oklopol> of course i've just seen random snippets of their interaction, so maybe it's not as one-directional as i think
13:35:51 <fizzie> Bidirectional ownership starts to sound like some sort of relationship thing there.
13:36:45 <oklopol> well i believe augur prefers just being owned, so i'm not sure it even needs to be bidirectional
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15:18:59 <ais523> wow, the Poincaré conjecture has been proved
15:19:09 <ais523> it's one of the ones that had a million-dollar prize attached
15:19:45 <fax> ais523, I am watching a talk on this now
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15:25:34 <fax> hE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT KNOT THOERY WHICH I DONT GET
15:28:36 <oklopol> i know everything about knot theory
15:29:14 <oklopol> knots can be uniquely factorized into primitive knots and primitive knots commute
15:29:45 <oklopol> braids have been pretty much completely characterized, but we know very little about knots in general
15:29:46 <fax> oklopol, so unknotting algorithm can be implemented?
15:30:03 <fax> maybe this is like what I used to think 'polynomials' were univariate
15:30:06 <oklopol> that's a very grey area knowingnesswise
15:30:14 <fax> perhaps when he said this about knots he was really talking about braids
15:30:37 <oklopol> braids are sort of permutations but with strings
15:31:34 <oklopol> you can represent them prettily as a braid algebra sort of thing
15:31:51 <fax> knots.. links.. braids I have no idea what one I mean
15:31:57 <oklopol> where you construct them with different sorts of primitive braidings which are taking a string over another and so on
15:32:08 <oklopol> aaaaand i guess that's all i know
15:32:23 <oklopol> well do you know what they are? i have no idea what links are
15:32:29 <oklopol> unless they are trivial knot
15:32:47 <fax> say a closed simple path in 3D
15:32:50 <oklopol> he was probably talking about knots, i haven't heard about braids nearly as much as knots
15:33:11 <fax> can you detect if they are the unknot (just a circle) with an algorithm?
15:33:25 <fax> I heard the algorithm to do that was one of the hardest possible algorithms to write
15:33:37 <oklopol> that's like saying the reals are lists of rationals, it's the equivalence classes that are knots
15:33:48 <fax> but then this guy in the talk says someone coded a thing which turns a knot into a normal form on APPLE ][!!!
15:34:14 <oklopol> fax: you can, i think that's pretty obvious, but you can't do it efficiently as far as we know
15:34:24 <fax> no it's not obvious
15:34:31 <oklopol> well with the simple path representation of course it's not obvious
15:34:42 <oklopol> but there are other ways that make it obvious
15:34:46 <fax> reidmeister moves don't normalize for example
15:34:54 <oklopol> yeah but you can just try them all out
15:35:04 <oklopol> finite amount of things to do
15:35:32 <fax> but the idea was like,
15:35:35 <oklopol> if they normalized, we might have something remotely efficient for it, and might call the problem solved; all that's obvious is that we have this exponential (or more) time algo to do it
15:35:37 <fax> you can tile space with cubes or whateer
15:35:50 <fax> and this guy says there's an apple ][ program which computes a tile from a knot.. and the tile is a normal form
15:36:33 <oklopol> to me, a fast algorithm to untangle knots would be much more interesting news than pointcare's conjecture
15:36:47 <oklopol> i mean i don't really give a fuck about that thing
15:36:51 <fax> were not even talking about poincare...
15:37:14 <oklopol> i thought someone said something about knots in the pointcare talk
15:37:55 <fax> "you start with this knot with 10 crossings... maybe I have to take it through a knot with 100 crossings to show it equal to this other knot"
15:38:00 <oklopol> so what i said was totally relevant, "what, there's an algo for knots? then why are you still watching the pointcare talk??"
15:38:32 <oklopol> i mean that's not what i meant, but i'm sure there was a discussion theoretic reason to say it.
15:39:08 <fax> but I want to find normal forms for knots
15:39:23 <fax> do you not know of such?
15:39:48 <oklopol> if there were any, in any useful sense, then there would be an efficient algorithm to check if knots are equal. there isn't
15:40:14 <oklopol> or well in the rewrite system sense
15:44:26 <oklopol> a normal form is a function from representations of some things into some set, which gives the same return value for things in the same equivalence class, and is an injection in the sense that it gives a different value for two things if they're not in the same equivalence class. we don't have this, but we have it sans the equivalence class respecting injectivity part, we have these functions that give the same value for two represen
15:44:32 <oklopol> did that all come through?
15:44:43 <fax> I know what a normal form is
15:44:50 <oklopol> all this would be so much clearer if i knew good definitions for these representation spaces
15:45:16 <oklopol> yeah, but i'm not sure you understand the connection between normal forms and knot invariants
15:45:22 <oklopol> because i just came up with it
15:45:33 <fax> the vauge idea he sketched out was that for any knot in 3D you can think about the spaec around it
15:45:46 <fax> then you can make some kind of tile which represents the topology of that space
15:45:50 <fax> and these tiles are a normal form
15:46:39 <oklopol> so... they all have the same normal form?
15:46:58 <oklopol> i mean aren't all those topologies just a link
15:47:35 <fax> "In 1985 thurstens graduate student, jeff weeks wrote a program for the little gray machintosh that finds these blueprints.. you draw a knot and a few seconds later, it determines a canonical blueprint for the knot"
15:48:04 <fax> "this program easily replaced perko tate and little, it immediately identifies the perko pair as being the same, and classifies all knots up to 10 crossings"
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15:49:39 <fax> ah, this seems to be an intro to the topic -- http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/~jhoste/HosteWebPages/downloads/HTW.pdf
15:49:43 <fax> I'll just read this
15:51:11 <fax> wow it seems to cover knots which are a finite set of closed paths rather than just one path
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16:17:18 <fax> oklopol, ah... the method they use only works for alternating knots
16:17:27 <fax> losing intrest...
16:22:10 <fax> I was going to implement it, if it was a normal form for all knots :(
16:22:20 <fax> http://www.geometrygames.org/SnapPea/
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18:19:18 <ais523> hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla is really ridiculously detailed
18:19:24 <ais523> it's almost as if people are starting a religion about it :)
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18:24:59 <pineapple> ais523: people these days will start a religion following jut about anything
18:25:17 <pineapple> see also: the number of people who stated their religion as "Jedi" in the 2001 census
18:25:26 <ais523> yep, I'm aware of that
18:25:47 <ais523> it lead to hilarious side-effects when someone who was asked to remove their hood in a Jobcentre managed to keep it on by claiming that they were a devout Jedi
18:26:41 <pineapple> going back on topic for a moment (and since there's someone else around now)...
18:27:34 <pineapple> i noticed in the DoubleFuck article that the 2 pointers operate on seperate arrays... and was wondering if it would be more interesting if they operated on the same array
18:28:17 <ais523> quite possibly, although it's unlikely to make much difference
18:28:58 <ais523> you could make it work like the original lang simply by putting them in far-off sections of the tape
18:29:16 <ais523> or by having one starting at an odd location, the other at an even location, then moving with << >> rather than < >
18:30:03 <pineapple> but that's boring, compared to haveing them start in the same place, and letting thje programmer do something interesting with having them both in the same space, with the chance to affect the same data
18:30:41 <ais523> so sharing a tape is probably a more general language
18:34:18 <oerjan> s/probably/definitely/, you just gave the proof three lines above...
18:36:57 <ais523> I'm stuck in talking in weasel words for some reason atm
18:37:14 <pikhq> Too much Japanese.
18:37:57 <pikhq> (seriously, you use weasel words to be more polite in Japanese)
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18:44:49 <augur> oklopol: you can own me all you want ;o
18:48:18 * Sgeo should probably do his C++ homework at some point
18:48:25 <Sgeo> In class, I put it off in favor of $BIG_PROJECT
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19:27:48 <Sgeo> Is there a reason to attempt to learn Erlang when I already know Haskell?
19:28:09 <Sgeo> Erlang seems like a dynamically typed, non-lazy Haskell with strange syntax, from what I've seen
19:29:06 <ais523> Sgeo: it's good for different things
19:29:18 <fax> learn erlang while you write the program
19:29:27 <fax> if you don't need to write a program in erlang why bother
19:31:00 <fizzie> The syntax is confusingly Prology; for some reason I find it funny, even though there's really nothing especially funny there.
19:32:05 <ais523> erlang was originally implemented in prolog, IIRC
19:32:13 <ais523> but reimplemented in something more efficient after a while
19:32:23 <fax> reimplemeted in prolog
19:32:33 <fax> bytecode compiler rather than direct interpretre
19:32:33 <fizzie> My one-liner description would've been "non-declarative Prolog with concurrency and communications bits", but I guess that always depends on from where you look at.
19:32:43 <fax> then I dunno what happened next
19:44:11 * Sgeo is considering learning about F#
19:46:18 <oklopol> learn about the theory of codes
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19:59:12 <fizzie> What is ridiculous is that there was this ad in the "jobs" noticeboard at the university; it consisted of only a single huge QR code, which, when decoded, yielded a longish quotation from the Book of Mozilla (11:9, I think) and a tinyurlish link to the actual job ad, which was some sort of web-mobile-developery thing.
20:01:34 <fizzie> It's the one with the squares in it.
20:01:47 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Wikipedia_mobile_en.png
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21:03:20 <alise> This is... Dispatch ... Four?
21:03:33 <alise> Three was the whole crisis thing I think so it wasn't really a dispatch.
21:05:51 <alise> 20:57:21 <mibygl> I wonder how groups work.
21:05:52 <alise> 20:59:23 <Gregor> Poorly.
21:05:52 <alise> Also true out of context.
21:06:17 <alise> 21:07:24 <Gregor> For instance, I'm fairly certain that SELinux implements ACLs (along with a trillion other things), but I have not one clue how they work.]
21:06:20 <fax> hey alise I used finite calculus to prove something
21:06:25 <pikhq> alise: So, uh. Hi?
21:06:30 <Sgeo> alise! We haven't seen you for xkcd days!
21:06:35 <alise> fax: Cool; show me. I need to forget about the week.
21:06:39 <alise> Sgeo: Well, like I said, the unit.
21:06:52 <alise> It's Friday, Saturday, Sunday from now on. Until countries become move.
21:07:00 <fax> alise "(1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n) ^ 2 = 1^3 + 2^3 + 3^3 + ... + n^3"
21:07:03 <alise> (So that they are under my feet. That's why it's called "moving country".)
21:07:07 <fax> "Why does the square of a sum of numbers equal the sum of each individual number cubed?"
21:07:09 <alise> fax: that ... CANNOT BE EXPANDED
21:07:19 <pikhq> alise: Time remaining?
21:07:23 <fax> you're infinet
21:07:25 <alise> pikhq: Who the fuck knows
21:07:39 <fax> alise, - http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/bep0g/why_does_the_square_of_a_sum_of_numbers_equal_the/c0meexi
21:08:01 <alise> /r/math is a cesspool
21:08:03 <pikhq> I'm busy trying to convince myself to do more kanji studying. And failing horribly ATM...
21:08:14 <fax> alise, also I used it to prove bijections between N^k and N
21:08:25 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:08:57 -!- Asztal has joined.
21:09:47 <fax> do you know a better math forum? : |
21:10:05 <alise> pikhq: considering all the trolls we get here are from related channels to #math i doubt it
21:10:12 <alise> also i think there is a lot of idiotic drama there
21:10:21 <alise> fax: actually i do
21:10:48 <pikhq> #esoteric is indeed a better channel.
21:11:04 <fax> pikhq, that cannot have been a serious suggestion
21:12:02 * Sgeo wonders what the Math channel on FICS is like
21:12:05 <alise> ais523: Descarfed?
21:12:13 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split).
21:12:13 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
21:12:13 -!- AnMaster has quit (*.net *.split).
21:12:14 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split).
21:12:15 <ais523> too many people complained
21:12:20 <Sgeo> Although I was on FICS recently, and iirc, it was somewhat inactive.
21:12:31 <Sgeo> Maybe if I said something, someone would respond, though
21:12:32 <alise> ais523: What; why?
21:12:39 <alise> Nobody has complained about my nick.
21:12:45 <ais523> but if people want me to use this nick, I may as well use it
21:12:48 <alise> Maybe that means nobody cares about me. :)
21:12:57 <fax> and what is it like?
21:12:58 <ais523> or we want to help you stay undercover
21:13:10 <alise> That wasn't why I changed nick but sure.
21:13:10 <Sgeo> FICS = Free Internet Chess Server. freechess.org
21:13:14 <alise> I don't think they know I'm ehird.
21:13:29 <ais523> for a while, I was wondering if pineapple was you (UK ISP, and my client decided to give you the same nick colour), but I decided it was someone else
21:14:00 <ais523> he was here earlier, and talked in a similar way
21:14:00 <alise> If you ask I'll always respond in the affirmative, btw, so that's one way of identifying me.
21:14:05 <ais523> but I suppose it was just a case of both being brits
21:14:09 <alise> What, whiningly? :)
21:14:21 <ais523> alise: that isn't a definite method of identification
21:14:28 <ais523> it's free from false negatives, but not from false positives
21:14:35 <ais523> in that if I ask someone else if they're alise, they might lie and say yes
21:14:40 <alise> Anyway I could tell you all about the horrible week I've had, but you've heard it all before. So unless anyone asks - or I get the inclination - it'll just be left unsaid.
21:14:55 <pikhq> alise: So, horrible but nothing new? Mmkay then.
21:15:02 <pikhq> Enjoy your moments of sanity, then.
21:15:16 -!- Deewiant has joined.
21:15:21 -!- AnMaster has joined.
21:15:21 -!- HackEgo has joined.
21:15:26 <ais523> hmm, partly as an antidote to the Java I do for work, I was doing some Haskell also for work
21:15:26 <alise> Well, something got marginally better in the latter days - they're, zomg, closing the door to my bedroom at night! So now I can actually have troubled sleep instead of staring at bright lights all night.
21:15:35 <alise> Which is, you know, "improvement".
21:15:58 <ais523> alise: it sounds to me like an equivalent boarding school, which seems pretty awful
21:16:08 -!- ineiros has joined.
21:16:15 <ais523> I remember that I was at one of the UK maths camps, which was being held in a boarding school
21:16:17 <alise> Boarding school with bullshit pseudo-psychology
21:16:22 <fax> can we just talk about finite calculus??
21:16:26 <ais523> the environment was weird, and more so because I was in a girl's bedroom
21:16:27 <alise> Although at about the same time I was told that if I wanted to continue reading at night I'd have to go to bed earlier...
21:16:34 <ais523> pineapple: yes, my client colours people's nicks depending on who they are
21:16:39 <ais523> but from a relatively small palette
21:16:47 <alise> Because, you know, going to bed minutes later will kill me. (Maybe they could not wake me up at 7 every day?!)
21:16:52 <ais523> (she wasn't there at the time, they were reusing the bedrooms)
21:16:53 <alise> (It's not like I have to travel.)
21:16:54 <pikhq> alise: Wait, wha? Makes no sense.
21:17:00 <fax> I never went to a math camp
21:17:09 <ais523> pineapple: no, a different one I think, and even smaller
21:17:11 <alise> pikhq: yeah and all the night staff do is just sit around and watch tv all night...
21:17:22 <alise> nice productive 'job'
21:17:25 <fax> well I supposed that's not surprising since I was never exceptionaly good at math
21:17:28 <ais523> magenta, blue, green, cyan, grey, red
21:17:38 <Sgeo> Math camp? o.O
21:17:38 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, they're being paid primarily for being available in case of a random emergency.
21:17:52 <alise> They're totally incompetent though.
21:18:02 <ais523> hmm, spam gets weirder and weirder: <Beta Tester Group> Do You Qualify - Get a $250 Grocery Gift Card
21:18:02 -!- charlesq__ has joined.
21:18:12 <ais523> UKIMO reserves, mostly
21:18:20 <alise> United Kingdom In My Opinion.
21:18:34 <ais523> (next issue here: based on that question, do we know each other?)
21:18:59 <pineapple> ais523: apart from i know that you're a sysop at the esolangs wiki... afaik no
21:19:05 <alise> pikhq: The first day that I was told (by the day staff) that they would tell the night staff to close my door (wow it is so inane negotiating things there it's like i'm 5 years old) it was shut for about 10 minutes then someone turned the light on, opened the door, and propped it up.
21:19:16 <alise> Privacy and communication. It's what we're best at.
21:19:35 <pikhq> alise: It's a CYA thing, not an "actually doing things" thing, having night staff.
21:19:46 <alise> pineapple: You Don't Want To Know.
21:19:51 <ais523> pineapple: I was in the Cambridge and Oundle camps in 2004 and 2005, IIRC, although I might be off by one year there
21:20:04 <alise> pineapple: Suffice to say I'm considered crazy and underage by the state; only one of these is correct.
21:20:13 <fax> ais how did you get involved in something like that initally?
21:20:26 <ais523> if you do well enough in them, they send you an invitation
21:20:35 <pineapple> there used to be (still is?) a competition for 11-15yo kids at school
21:20:46 <ais523> and another competition for people who are slightly older
21:20:53 <alise> pineapple: Well okay actually if you asked, you probably do want to know. Do you?
21:20:55 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:20:56 <pikhq> alise: Clearly you're absolutely bonkers but immortal.
21:21:27 <pineapple> ais523: iirc, i had best in school on the UKJMC when i was in year 8
21:21:28 <ais523> and pineapple is /definitely/ involved in them, on the basis that he knows too much to not be
21:21:40 <ais523> pineapple: heh, in that case you didn't go to the same school as me
21:22:04 <pineapple> alise: i'm certainly willing to listen
21:22:22 <pineapple> or maybe not in the same year... my gcse year was 1999
21:23:10 <alise> So you're approximately ... eleven? years older than me
21:23:13 <ais523> now I have to work out when mine was
21:23:25 <alise> I will summarise to pineapple in /msg so I don't bloat the channel
21:23:32 <alise> pineapple: twelve years older :P
21:24:33 <ais523> so I probably missed you by one year at the camps
21:24:34 <alise> "22 and ONE HALF!!!"
21:25:06 <ais523> 22 and more than 11 months
21:25:20 <ais523> hmm, come to think of it, my date of birth's probably online somewhere
21:25:52 <pikhq> I think mine's probably in the channel logs somewhere.
21:26:06 <pikhq> If it's not, well. 4 more days until I'm 20. Whooo.
21:26:19 <Sgeo> Why am I surprised that I'm older than pikhq ?
21:26:20 <ais523> pikhq: somehow, I never thought of you as being younger than me
21:26:32 <alise> Sgeo: Huh - I'm surprised too.
21:26:44 <ais523> alise: 19, based on what he just said
21:27:01 <alise> then again I've got 4 years to catch up.
21:27:06 <alise> WHEN I'M OLDER THAN YOU
21:27:08 <ais523> alise: you're by far the best programmer of your age I know
21:27:23 <pikhq> Yeah, you're... Pretty damned good.
21:28:05 <ais523> I mean, you might even be better than me, and I'm pretty good to
21:28:14 <ais523> probably everyone in this channel is
21:28:50 <pikhq> Well, yeah. We have a tendency to attract only the people that think bizarre programming languages are a neat idea.
21:29:24 <alise> ais523: I think you're a better programmer than me
21:29:30 <olsner> pikhq: I wonder why that is...
21:29:42 <alise> olsner: Well, it gets boring talking about magick.
21:29:51 <ais523> alise: there isn't really any easy way to test; maybe not any easy way to define it
21:29:54 <alise> ais523: 15 April 1987
21:30:00 <fax> WHAT HAS ALISE WRITTEN?
21:30:03 <fax> NAME ONE PROGRAM
21:30:05 <ais523> alise: correct; which info source did you use?
21:30:05 <fax> ...........
21:30:13 <alise> name one program ais523 wrote
21:30:16 <alise> ais523: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/alex_smith_bio.html
21:30:20 <ais523> fax: the underload to C compiler
21:30:25 <alise> i figured if it has a picture of you it must have your birthdate
21:30:30 <alise> ais523: that was pretty awful code though
21:30:33 <alise> the scheme version
21:30:38 <pineapple> alise: you were born on a wednesday
21:30:43 <pikhq> fax: Name to me one program *you've* written!
21:30:43 <ais523> alise: still, it was generated pretty quickly
21:30:48 <ais523> pineapple: tab-complete fail?
21:30:48 <alise> pineapple: not me ais523
21:30:49 <fax> I haven't written any
21:30:50 * Sgeo wonders what people think of his code >.>
21:31:01 <alise> I was born on a ... I don't know what day 22 august 1995 was
21:31:02 <ais523> and I know I was born on Wednesday, and think it's a pretty irrelevant fact
21:31:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Code? Oh, right. PSOX.
21:31:28 <ais523> alise: Tuesday, apparently
21:31:29 <alise> Oh, oh, amusingness time!
21:31:32 <pineapple> ais523: meh... i'm just bored (and i can work it out in my head)
21:31:35 <ais523> pikhq: THOU SHALT NOT MENTION PSOX
21:31:38 <alise> My teacher is apparently trying to get a teacher for me so that I can have IT lessons.
21:31:39 <pikhq> alise: 95? Man. I've been on the Internet since before you were born.
21:31:48 <alise> Which are, of course, an area in which I am lacking in skills!
21:31:54 <Sgeo> I also have publically available Javasscript stuff, but I like to pretend it doesn't exist
21:31:56 <ais523> pineapple: ah, that's impressive; I never bothered to learn the algorithm, especially as I have cal to hand
21:32:00 <Sgeo> And it was written relatively recently!
21:32:09 -!- augur has joined.
21:32:28 <alise> Maybe I'll just open Notepad and write a program for every task I'm asked to do.
21:32:30 <pineapple> ais523: i'm not as fast at it as i could be, though...
21:32:31 <ais523> alise: I was actually thinking slightly about this; the best solution IMO is to do your GCSEs/A-levels as soon as possible
21:32:40 <ais523> regardless of whether it's too early or not
21:32:49 <ais523> you should be able to do really easily
21:32:50 <olsner> wow, 1995, even I was on the internet before then
21:32:52 <alise> pineapple: Since when do school computers have Emacs?
21:32:58 <alise> ais523: No - that will involve me being registered with a school
21:33:04 <pineapple> (and no... i am not writing programs in doublefuck with my smileys)
21:33:06 <alise> ais523: Which creates further issues with moving probably
21:33:11 <alise> ais523: Anyway why would that help?
21:33:14 <ais523> alise: IIRC there's some way to do it without being registered
21:33:18 <ais523> public exam places, or something
21:33:24 <pineapple> if you can't install anything, then fair enough
21:33:29 <ais523> and it would prove that you really didn't need low-level education
21:33:35 <alise> well i don't think i'd be expected to write a program
21:33:40 <alise> lol the coyotos guy is leaving microsoft already
21:33:46 <pikhq> If it's even vaguely similar to the US's GED program, it'd be pretty trivial for you to do.
21:33:46 <ais523> I know I was really depressed in my IT GCSE
21:33:52 <alise> ais523: well the unit is controlling all this sort of stuff so
21:33:56 <ais523> because they wanted me to print off the formula view of all the spreadsheet pages
21:33:57 <alise> I can't exactly do tests on the weekends
21:33:58 <ais523> and they were all identical
21:34:05 <alise> and you get like... single day holidays
21:34:09 <alise> they even wanted me in on christmas eve
21:34:21 <alise> "It's a HOSPITAL!"
21:34:25 <ais523> alise: my guess there is that they employ control freaks, because nobody else would want the job
21:34:32 <alise> ais523: "IT" is an alias for "Office".
21:34:37 <alise> MS Office that is.
21:34:46 -!- uorygl_ has changed nick to uorygl.
21:34:58 <ais523> I complained that the syllabus was asking people to say copy/paste was a good way to duplicate info on a spreadsheet
21:35:15 <alise> ugh, that's the worst thing about PHSE (apart from the whole fucking subject)
21:35:17 <pikhq> alise: There are places here that offer "degrees in IT". I find it hilarious that people are getting degrees in Office.
21:35:19 <ais523> because at the time, I knew of four spreadsheet programs (supercalc, lotus 1-2-3, works, excel), and only excel did copy and paste
21:35:24 <alise> "<Statement>. Write a paragraph to support this"
21:35:36 <alise> what if I fucking disagree you government-originated piece of crap?
21:35:56 <Deewiant> You should still be able to argue the opposing viewpoint
21:35:56 <ais523> alise: in history, they do the same thing except they ask you to argue both sides
21:35:59 <pikhq> How could anyone have any other opinion?
21:36:00 <ais523> which makes a lot more sense
21:36:32 <ais523> "Novell slandered SCO's title by claiming to own the copyright to UNIX." Write a paragraph to support this
21:37:00 <alise> Deewiant: But that isn't what you're asked, and if you do that the anal-retentive teachers will tell you off.
21:37:06 <alise> And make you do what it says. Sigh.
21:37:20 <alise> No, it asks you to /support/ the statement.
21:37:32 <ais523> alise: Deewiant means that, a good debater/lawyer can argue the opposite of their own opinion
21:37:33 <Deewiant> You should be able to argue the viewpoint which opposes your own
21:37:45 <Deewiant> Since you evidently opposed it
21:37:55 <alise> but still, it's sleazy
21:38:02 <alise> because you're meant to be "learning" these "opinions"
21:38:13 <ais523> alise: you can practice by writing paragraphs on why the unit is a good idea
21:38:17 <fax> I have no idea what anyone here is talking about
21:38:40 <alise> ais523: that's a literally impossible task
21:38:44 <alise> fax: stupid UK curriculum
21:38:48 <pikhq> It's stuff like "George Bush was the greatest president ever, and he totally defeated every terrorist. Write a paragraph to support this."
21:39:02 <pikhq> (level of stupidity, not specific example)
21:39:08 <ais523> fax: try not reading about how UK assessment works, it'll make your brain melt
21:39:24 <ais523> for instance, the maths A-level became around 16% easier the year after I did it, and I have objective evidence of this
21:39:41 <ais523> (the official line is that the kids are getting cleverer, rather than the exams getting easier)
21:39:44 <pikhq> ais523: ... You mean it's more stupid than the US system?
21:39:57 <ais523> pikhq: schooling is (slightly, at least) better, but assessment is really stupid
21:40:24 <ais523> try looking for what the pass mark for maths GCSE is nowadays
21:40:25 <pikhq> Our assessment is also freaking stupid, but it's more consistent at least...
21:40:55 <pikhq> Note that we have started teaching, not knowledge, but how to take the tests.
21:41:20 <pikhq> Which are usually multiple choice.
21:41:22 <ais523> yahoo answers says 90% for the top mark, but those are "scaled marks" designed to fit everyone to a normal distribution...
21:41:37 <ais523> according to the second Google result, the raw pass mark is currently 16%
21:41:59 <pikhq> Oh, and essay exams? They are *computer graded*.
21:42:24 <alise> we have to use this really piss-poor Flash-based examination system
21:42:31 <ais523> admittedly, the same happens in the UK, except that they're graded by humans following a strict algorithm
21:42:42 <pikhq> Deewiant: I dunno.
21:42:46 <alise> and by piss poor I mean nigh on impossible to use
21:42:58 <ais523> alise: please tell me it's better than WebCT
21:43:10 <ais523> which is an attempt to reimplement all the standard web technologies via other means, as far as I can tell
21:43:15 <ais523> and as a result breaks really badly almost all the time
21:43:34 <fax> alise do you ever get angry
21:43:40 <alise> http://www.goalonline.co.uk/
21:43:42 <alise> fax: all the time, why
21:45:04 <alise> http://www.goalonline.co.uk/23.08.06CROYDONGUARDIANADDINGTONHIGHSCHOOL.BMP
21:45:04 <alise> NICEFILENAMEANDIMAGEFORMAT.BMP
21:45:33 <alise> it still hasn't loaded!!!
21:45:46 <alise> fax: not randomly though... just because my life really sucks :D
21:45:49 <Deewiant> BMP of a photograph of a newspaper xD
21:46:02 <ais523> oh, I didn't even notice it was a bmp
21:46:03 <alise> Deewiant: the scanner was being used!!!
21:46:09 -!- Azstal has joined.
21:46:10 <ais523> although I did notice it loaded from the bottom upwards, that should have been a clue
21:46:15 <alise> it's almost as comical as the actual product
21:46:37 <alise> why do bmps start with the end?
21:46:52 <ais523> because it made blitting them to video graphics easier back in the days of windows 3.1
21:47:56 <AnMaster> <alise> Which is, you know, "improvement". <-- so you didn't get to stay at home?
21:47:59 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:48:03 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
21:48:17 <alise> AnMaster: Because they never let me? I just refused to go while stuff was being sorted out -- and also that is the plan.
21:48:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not convinced that it'll help much
21:48:23 <alise> Of course it will.
21:48:31 <alise> coppro and pikhq - bless 'em - have looked into the relevant laws.
21:48:37 <alise> If I commit no crime I can move and be completely safe.
21:48:51 <ais523> can they try to section you retrospectively?
21:49:16 <alise> You can only section someone under the jurisdiction of UK law.
21:49:44 <alise> ais523: they can only get me if I committed a crime on UK soil
21:49:50 <alise> that's the only way you can extradite someone
21:49:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: This might amuse you: pyfunge Mycology output prior to a recent change: http://pastebin.com/8taKGWs7 and after: http://pastebin.com/rZVSXiUu
21:50:00 <ais523> anyone wondering about UK assessment problems: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article564491.ece
21:50:17 <alise> pyfunge - that a new one?
21:50:41 <olsner> hmm, maybe that's why Mac (still) draws images backwards
21:51:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought it passed with flying colours
21:51:44 <Deewiant> Does nobody remember pyfunge? :-P
21:51:47 <pineapple> ais523: 16%... i knew it could be as low as 20% if you were doing maths at higher tier (back in the 3 tier system)
21:51:49 <ais523> also, why is it bad for 1k[ to turn left? I can't remember
21:51:58 <Deewiant> ais523: It should turn left at the k, not the [
21:52:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wasn't it the one lifthrasiir made?
21:52:10 <ais523> misread what you were testing
21:52:26 <olsner> wtf, how did they make that page, it's a 404 in opera, but works in chrome
21:52:33 <alise> It's quite amusing just how crazy the other people at the unit are compared to me.
21:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also in the second one, what happened to the output in the second one?
21:52:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, that's the funny part :-)
21:52:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I mean, a lot of the beginning was lost
21:52:54 <alise> There's an anorexic girl who from what I can tell has been cutting herself there, about 13. On a feeding tube quite a lot of the time.
21:53:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Nope, that's the whole output
21:53:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how did it manage that ^_^
21:53:26 <Deewiant> Made me blink a bit as well :-D
21:53:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was the "BAD: 2k6 leaves 2 sixes on stack" a fatal error?
21:54:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Evidently it does something very unexpected with form feeds in the source
21:54:03 <ais523> of course, the other possibility is that alise is actually a psychopathic murderer or something and doesn't know it, and only comes here in lucid periods
21:54:20 <ais523> but it seems unlikely to me
21:54:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: As far as I can tell RC/Funge-98 treats them as EOF, for what it's worth
21:54:40 <alise> ais523: I've metaanalysed my sanity more times than I can count; any rational person would in the face of all these people sure I'm crazy.
21:54:45 <alise> Checks out okay for me, though.
21:54:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cfunge ignores them iirc
21:54:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like EOF should be in unefunge
21:55:01 <Deewiant> Yes, I haven't managed to coax a BAD out of cfunge yet ;-)
21:55:09 <ais523> alise: hey, when I did that, I decided I was actually insane, but so was the world in general so I didn't care
21:55:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I don't have time to make a new release in the next few weeks
21:55:36 <coppro> ais523: You didn't build an inside-out asylum, did you? :P
21:55:43 <alise> ais523: Well, I need some kind of base measure.
21:55:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Don't worry, I probably don't either :-P
21:55:56 <ais523> alise: this channel may not be the best place...
21:56:01 <ais523> coppro: no point, I was crazy too
21:56:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so please use the last version. To avoid the issue with y as pick
21:56:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it has been fixed for both efunge and cfunge
21:56:24 <AnMaster> but you need to use last revision
21:56:45 <alise> Ooh, a neat Chrome feature.
21:56:49 <alise> wolframa<TAB>2+2<ENTER>.
21:56:56 <alise> It automatically detects site searches in the address bar!
21:57:01 <fax> wolfram alpha is pissing me off
21:57:07 <alise> It's annoying, but still.
21:57:10 <alise> You have to love it.
21:57:10 <ais523> alise: IIRC even firefox does that
21:57:16 <alise> ais523: no, you don't go to wolfram alpha
21:57:27 <alise> you type wolframa, it (gets from google the results) shows wolframalpha.com, you press TAB
21:57:29 <alise> then the address bar is
21:57:32 <fax> it just gives up if your query is longer than like 70 chars..
21:57:34 <alise> [Search wolframalpha.com:]
21:57:35 <ais523> alise: I thought there was some way to do that
21:57:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Hmm, it doesn't seem to build much
21:57:41 <alise> Without even loading the page?
21:57:57 <AnMaster> alise, it is possible in firefox
21:58:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Ah, it just doesn't like my EFUNGE_ROOT it seems
21:58:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, EFUNGE_ROOT? I don't remember that
21:58:19 <Deewiant> First it says "efunge directory not found" then I set EFUNGE_ROOT and now it says efunge.beam not found
21:58:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Since I'm not running it from the source dir, it wants that set
21:58:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it should be run from the dir where efunge it
21:58:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, efunge.beam should be in ebin
21:58:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's horribly inconvenient
21:58:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, sure, but tell me if it works there
21:59:01 <Deewiant> Ah yes, I should point root to the ebin directory
21:59:05 <AnMaster> setting EFUNGE_ROOT *should* work though
21:59:15 <AnMaster> yeah maybe I should do something about that
21:59:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the issue is that I can't really detect where "I" am on POSIX
21:59:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: efunge doesn't shrink the Funge-Space bounds! Tut, tut.
22:00:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure you use the last revision?
22:00:08 <Deewiant> Oh, woops, my mistake, there's still a bug in that code
22:00:14 <ais523> Deewiant: testing slowdown?
22:00:26 <AnMaster> slowdown won't work well on efunge I think
22:00:27 <Deewiant> ais523: Nah, adding the bounds-shrinking testing stuff to Mycology
22:00:40 <AnMaster> due to slowdown trying to generate a random placed from the cell size
22:00:41 <ais523> oh, bounds-shrinking is required by the spec?
22:01:05 <ais523> maybe it should use an exponential distribution, or something
22:01:05 <AnMaster> ais523, after all, what is a random number between 0 and 8^-1
22:01:14 <ais523> AnMaster: anything between 0 and 1/8
22:01:43 <AnMaster> slowdown can't work on efunge due to that issue
22:01:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I'm not going to "fix" it
22:02:06 <AnMaster> because I consider it not a bug
22:02:34 <Deewiant> I could patch slowdown to use some reasonably-large number if it gets <0 but I haven't bothered
22:02:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, after all, I don't know any other bignum funge. It is exploiting a specific niche
22:02:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iirc it messes up that other test suite too
22:02:56 <Deewiant> ais523: The spec says "least point which contains a non-space cell"
22:02:57 <AnMaster> rather limited compared to mycology
22:03:34 <ais523> Deewiant: hmm, what about Unicode whitespace?
22:03:36 <AnMaster> efunge *should* handle shrinking bounds
22:03:42 <AnMaster> I can't answer what ATHR will do to it
22:03:48 <Deewiant> ais523: I think "space" is fairly well defined in the spec :-P
22:03:56 <Deewiant> ais523: Questioning that will only lead to trouble
22:03:57 <AnMaster> and require quite a deep understanding of efunge internals
22:04:20 <AnMaster> but since mycology doesn't test ATHR it should not cause any issues
22:04:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you want to test TURT use the supervisor branch
22:09:04 <Deewiant> Hmm, I don't suppose I can get a printout of some funge-space area out of cfunge/efunge
22:10:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can using gdb for cfunge
22:10:18 <AnMaster> there is a function enabled for debug builds of cfunge
22:10:26 <AnMaster> for efunge, well you can also use a debugger or such
22:10:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course you can use o for it
22:10:39 <AnMaster> if you can change the code to include an o
22:10:50 <Deewiant> o would probably be easiest, yeah
22:11:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for efunge I don't *think* there is any "pre-made" dumping function
22:12:56 <AnMaster> I guess it is just a one-liner in an erlang shell for supervisor
22:13:02 <ais523> probably a one-liner in funge itself, too
22:13:04 <AnMaster> somewhat harder for trunk probably
22:13:22 <Deewiant> Hmm, I think I'm fairly sure that cfunge/efunge are not shrinking bounds properly
22:13:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in what way, and test case please
22:13:50 <alise> "I have a hunch..." "PROVE IT!"
22:14:07 <AnMaster> alise, I can't do anything without knowing what exactly is the issue
22:14:15 <AnMaster> because for my tests of it, it worked
22:14:21 <alise> 10:12:43 <ais523> idea suggested in another channel: use /b/ as an entropy source for /dev/random
22:14:21 <alise> A cycle of "nigger" does not have very good statistical randomness.
22:14:38 <ais523> I assume they do other things too, though
22:14:43 <fax> that's why it's called pseudorandom
22:14:53 <ais523> and the way /dev/random works, it doesn't matter if you put patterned or non-random data into it
22:14:58 <AnMaster> alise, you could use the timing of the postings
22:15:24 <AnMaster> ais523, does it try to detect patterns and throw such away?
22:15:30 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't use the data unchanged
22:15:38 <ais523> it uses /entropy/ from the input
22:15:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, but you can still influence it that way can't you?
22:15:56 <AnMaster> if you know all the input data sent to it
22:16:04 <ais523> basically, assume you have an internal seed, which is true-random (don't worry about where it comes from for now), and some external data
22:16:15 <ais523> if you XOR the seed with the external data, it's still just as random
22:16:25 <ais523> even if the external data is all zeros
22:16:27 <AnMaster> ais523, then why does it need the external data at all
22:16:34 <ais523> so long as the external data isn't produced with knowledge of what the seed is
22:16:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:17:02 <ais523> now, that keeps randomness constant; you can also add randomness to a system if you have a measure of how much entropy is in the original message
22:17:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, what is the issue you are seeing
22:17:11 <alise> 10:14:34 <fax> I guess you could make a game that uses /b/ as input
22:17:12 <ais523> so if you put /dev/zero into /dev/random, you don't get any more entropy
22:17:17 <alise> 10:14:55 <fax> kind of like tetris peices, except memes
22:17:17 <alise> you'd just get DESU all the time
22:17:25 <ais523> if you put something like #esoteric in, you get rather more
22:17:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cfunge and efunge use *completely* different ways for doing it btw
22:17:39 <ais523> if you put in a true-random source, ideally it would go perfectly
22:18:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/191616/ :-P
22:18:02 <fizzie> ais523: I don't think it can actually count the amount of entropy in the input data, though, so you might fool the bits of the code that maintain the estimate to how much data it's safe to give out of /dev/random.
22:18:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Sorry, that actually creates the o dump as well into /tmp/y
22:18:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You can disable that easily enough on the bottom line if you want to
22:18:39 <ais523> although there may be some well-known way to get a lower bound
22:18:42 <ais523> which would be good enough
22:19:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, issue: those first BAD seems wrong
22:19:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what is your theory for it hanging there
22:19:24 <fizzie> ais523: Also, from the /dev/random sources:
22:19:30 <fizzie> * outside observer to measure. Randomness from these sources are
22:19:30 <AnMaster> BAD: least point should have been ( -1 -1 )
22:19:30 <fizzie> * added to an "entropy pool", which is mixed using a CRC-like function.
22:19:30 <fizzie> * This is not cryptographically strong, but it is adequate assuming
22:19:30 <fizzie> * the randomness is not chosen maliciously, and it is fast enough that
22:19:30 <fizzie> * the overhead of doing it on every interrupt is very reasonable.
22:19:30 <fizzie> * As random bytes are mixed into the entropy pool, the routines keep
22:19:32 <fizzie> * an *estimate* of how many bits of randomness have been stored into
22:19:34 <fizzie> * the random number generator's internal state.
22:19:38 <AnMaster> and the greatest point one too
22:19:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, that's wrong, ignore that. -3 -2 is right
22:19:55 <Deewiant> And the greatest point is obviously wrong because I grabbed only the first 200 lines of mycology, not all of it :-P
22:19:57 <ais523> fizzie: yep, just determined that myself a different way
22:20:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right. so what is the issue. That it hangs right there?
22:20:13 <ais523> /dev/random is basically just /dev/urandom except it blocks when its estimate of the amount of available entropy goes down to 0, IIRC
22:20:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Nothing hangs for me?
22:20:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, right after the UNDEF: ) with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count
22:20:33 <Deewiant> Maybe the pastebin mangled it... hang on
22:20:37 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but additionally the part about using a CRC-like non-strong function for the mixing.
22:20:38 <ais523> so malicious input might make it slightly less than true-random, but it should be crypto-secure in any case
22:21:01 <ais523> fizzie: you don't need a strong function for the /mixing/, so long as you're only combining data, not replacing
22:21:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have your own website, use it :P
22:21:16 <alise> in lyx how do you do a single char function name?
22:21:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'll just host it locally, quicker
22:21:35 <AnMaster> alise, that would work, if you prefer that font
22:21:36 <ais523> alise: for mathematical functions, I just use the default italic-like maths font
22:21:50 <ais523> \mathrm is good for things that are supposed to be non-italic
22:21:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://tar.us.to:12345/arst.b98
22:22:06 <alise> yeah but lyx is all ooh semantic
22:22:27 <AnMaster> BAD: after spacing top-left corner, y should report least point as ( -2 -1 ), not ( -10 -10 )
22:22:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you have any storage offset set?
22:22:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is my first reaction to it
22:23:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, valgrind reports nothing
22:23:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And no, the offset is 0 0
22:23:13 <AnMaster> debug build, probably 64-bit *checks*
22:23:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe your build doesn't have bounds shrinking enabled?
22:23:24 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened debug asserts p:64 c:64]
22:23:35 -!- Oranjer has joined.
22:23:36 <AnMaster> it has shrinking bounds enabled
22:23:37 <Deewiant> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:64 c:64
22:23:45 <fizzie> ais523: Well, I guess that's true, assuming you can't deduce the state, and it does seem to use a real hash function for producing the actual output bytes.
22:23:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and ccbi passes this?
22:24:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Oh right; it depends on whether mycotmp*.tmp existed or not :-P
22:24:08 <ais523> fizzie: yep, inability to determine the internal state is the whole basis of all this
22:24:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then, that isn't very reliable
22:24:20 <ais523> and one of the requirements for cryptosecure randomness is that you can't deduce the internal state from the output
22:24:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: -2 -1 is right in either case
22:24:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and efunge fails in the exact same way?
22:24:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's why it says "after spacing top-left corner" ;-)
22:24:43 <ais523> (I know about all this from the whole NetHack RNG-control debacle)
22:24:51 <ais523> (they use a cryptographically secure RNG for tournaments nowadays)
22:25:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The last line of that does the dump yes
22:25:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not the whole thing though
22:25:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what part is dumped?
22:25:17 <Deewiant> Maybe I should've looked at that first actually :-P
22:25:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 20x20 starting at -10 -10
22:25:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there seems to be stuff in there. Not sure what it actually contains
22:26:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I really don't have time to debug this until next weekend. Have exam on monday and wensday (spelling?)
22:26:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, I always typo it
22:26:36 <AnMaster> onsdag is so much easier to remember
22:27:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw that dump contains a form feed I see
22:27:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't <FF> formfeed?
22:28:05 <Deewiant> There's a cell with value -1 at (-2,-1)
22:28:21 <Deewiant> And in the 2000x2000 dump there's nothing to the west or north of that
22:28:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how comes mycoedge and such worked without flaw (correcting for offset error). What are you doing differently here?
22:28:31 <Deewiant> And yet cfunge says the minimum point is -10,-1
22:28:49 <Deewiant> I haven't looked at the mycoedge file at all
22:28:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does efunge say the same thing?
22:29:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, efunge might be easier to debug. Plus it actually scans the entire funge space for set cells to calc the bounds
22:29:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how are you overwriting them btw?
22:29:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The dump from cfunge and CCBI is identical
22:30:17 <fizzie> ais523: As an aside, you can get the entropy estimate out by reading /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail, it seems.
22:30:20 <Deewiant> ((1,1) being the X coordinate and (2,2) the Y)
22:30:51 <AnMaster> could be an off by one error when marking bounds as inexact I guess
22:30:52 <ais523> fizzie: I knew that already (well, not the exact path, but I knew it was in /proc/sys somewhere, and had a good idea of where to find it)
22:30:59 <AnMaster> since that is about the only part of the algorithm they share
22:31:06 <ais523> IIRC there's also a file in there somewhere which gives you UUIDs when you read it
22:31:09 <AnMaster> lets see what happens if always marking in inexact in efunge
22:31:19 <AnMaster> (efunge's algorithm is slower but easier to debug)
22:31:20 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, it's "next" to that one (same dir).
22:32:25 <alise> 02:59:07 <TehZ> If you are bored, you could take a look at lolcode
22:32:25 <alise> 02:59:11 <TehZ> its funny
22:32:43 <alise> 03:16:34 <lereah_> Use mIRC
22:32:44 <alise> 03:16:37 <lereah_> Or something
22:32:44 <alise> 03:16:53 <TehZ> I didnt see that one in google chrome plugin page
22:32:59 <AnMaster> when I force the bounds to always be considered inexact the issue does not show up
22:33:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: Weird that Deewiant didn't mention this, but en:Wednesday is fi:keskiviikko, where fi:viikko == en:week, and fi:keski- is a prefix somewhat like en:mid-; center, middle; so the Finnish word for Wednesday is "mid-week". That's also pretty easy to remember.
22:33:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: I was concentrating on the more important issue here, sorry ;-)
22:33:33 <pineapple> fizzie: sounds very much like the german for wednesday
22:33:46 <Deewiant> pineapple: Yes, it's pretty much the same thing.
22:34:02 * pikhq starts writing a copying garbage collector for the purpose of writing a "proper" Lazy K interpreter.
22:34:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There are some differences between cfunge/efunge in the o dump btw: at least efunge doesn't output the null byte, and then some other things that I can't see but diff claims they differ
22:34:14 <fizzie> It's a bit strange that none of the other weekdays have names like that.
22:34:15 <ais523> pikhq: can't you refcount Lazy K?
22:34:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The null byte in the source of mycology
22:34:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, should it output it?
22:34:31 <pikhq> Cyclic data structures are quite possible.
22:34:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have no clue why it wouldn't be doing it
22:34:38 <pikhq> Can you refcount lambda calculus?
22:34:39 <ais523> I thought most combinator langs had no way to produce cyclic data structures
22:34:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, it should output /something/ there :-P
22:34:46 <ais523> Unlambda doesn't, IIRC
22:34:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I blame the runtime for it. Or something.
22:35:20 <pikhq> Fixed pointer combinator = cyclic data structure. ;)
22:35:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I know now the issue in efunge at least is in the code checking if an update might cause bounds to be inexact
22:35:29 <ais523> I mean, I vaguely knew it was lazy, but for some reason didn't notice that mattered
22:35:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Okay, good; just confirming that I'm not wrong ;-)
22:35:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this not correct:
22:35:52 <Deewiant> So I did manage to coax a BAD out of cfunge, ha
22:35:53 <pikhq> Anyways. I'm writing this *mostly* because I've never written a garbage collector before.
22:35:53 <AnMaster> X =:= MinX; X =:= MaxX; Y =:= MinY; Y =:= MaxY ->
22:35:53 <AnMaster> put(fspacebounds_exact, false),
22:36:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you tell me about that?
22:36:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean, context for this: when putting a space?
22:36:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if X and Y are position of space being written, and Min/Max being bounds yes
22:36:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And fspacebounds_exact being false means that you then find the new bounds?
22:36:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ; in this case means "or"
22:37:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that being false means that if y asks for it, I will recalculate it
22:37:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I won't bother for wrapping
22:37:43 <Deewiant> Can't think of why it wouldn't work
22:38:46 <fizzie> That's curious, the bot got a "403: Forbidden" from Twitter.
22:38:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Are you sure all the values are correct to begin with?
22:38:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm maybe they dislike bots
22:39:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: MinX, MaxX, MinY, MaxY I mean; and even X,Y I suppose although that's less likely
22:39:47 <AnMaster> plus if I swapped them it would have caused issues elsewhere already I think
22:40:03 <Deewiant> My best guess is that one of them is wrong somehow
22:40:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect it must be an off by one error
22:40:15 <AnMaster> like, bounds not being that exactly
22:40:24 <AnMaster> as in, they are one larger or whatever
22:40:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since it is basically only updated in one function, and I see nothing wrong there
22:41:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did the bounds only grow to -10, -10? Or did they grow even further?
22:41:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: They have quite a lot of bots already, though. There's e.g. big_ben_CLOCK, which auto-tweets something like "BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG" every hour, with the correct number of BONGs of course.
22:41:54 <fizzie> Incidentally, that one has 47,157 followers; fungot has 6. Still quite some way to go there!
22:42:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If it did the o testing i.e. you had free mycotmp, to -10,-10; otherwise to -3,-2
22:42:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the code for recalculating bounds must be correct, since if I force it to be used all the time, then it works
22:43:39 <AnMaster> the code for growing the bounds. well if they grow to one too large that would cause mycology to complain in the y test already wouldn't it?
22:43:52 <AnMaster> (or one too small if it comes to that)
22:43:53 <alise> big_ben_clock is wonderful
22:44:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The y test is before the -10 -10 bounds; but yes, cfunge and efunge both put the correct -3,-2 there
22:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lets see what happens if we always set bounds to inexact on writing space
22:45:11 <AnMaster> which was completely unexpected
22:45:46 <Deewiant> You sure you're looking at the code for p and not g? ;-P
22:45:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm looking at the function update_bounds
22:49:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you sure you just write *space* with p?
22:49:42 <AnMaster> not something that with o ends up as it
22:50:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the 11g for?
22:50:11 <Deewiant> (1,1) is the X-coordinate, (2,2) the Y
22:50:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why are you storing them there
22:50:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, befunge isn't naturally PIC
22:50:59 <Deewiant> The stack is impossible with more than one value to keep around
22:51:05 <Deewiant> Without FRTH or equivalent extensions
22:52:28 <Deewiant> I use the (0,0) as scratch space all over
22:53:10 <AnMaster> now it still fails with the same issue as before
22:53:13 <Deewiant> It's not like I'll be going to (0,0) again to execute something, so it's okay :-P
22:53:16 <AnMaster> even when setting it to false always
22:53:47 <AnMaster> [{FirstX,FirstY}|Coordinates] = ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}]),
22:53:47 <AnMaster> NewBounds = find_extremes(Coordinates, FirstX, FirstY, FirstX, FirstY),
22:53:53 <AnMaster> now to figure out why that is wrong
22:53:56 <fizzie> Aw-dangity, my hostmask is wrongly.
22:54:00 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:54:03 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:54:18 <Deewiant> I find erlang's syntax abhorrent :-P
22:54:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, think of it as a DSL like SQL
22:54:23 <alise> Actually, Erlang's syntax is shit.
22:54:26 <Deewiant> I can read it, it's not a problem
22:54:33 <alise> Take Prolog - then misinterpret its syntax wildly.
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22:54:51 <fax> the people who made erlang know a bit of prolog :P
22:55:11 <AnMaster> more than a bit, but they reused parts of it's syntax
22:55:22 <AnMaster> I fail to see what is wrong with that
22:55:23 <alise> if they knew more than a bit they wouldn't make it so stupid
22:55:39 <AnMaster> but they didn't make it stupid
22:55:44 <alise> no they knew no more than just a bit
22:55:53 <alise> you don't even know prolog, so... shaddup
22:56:14 <AnMaster> and yes "[{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}]" *is* horrible
22:56:26 <AnMaster> but then that could use some newlines and spacing
22:56:29 <Deewiant> A bit of spacing around commas would help there IMO
22:56:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so complain about my coding style then rather than erlang
22:56:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'd rather complain about both
22:57:26 <AnMaster> [{FirstX,FirstY}|Coordinates] = ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},
22:58:30 <Deewiant> Seems better to me but it could still be better
22:59:04 <AnMaster> it seems correct to me, thus find_extremes must be wrong
22:59:40 <AnMaster> can't spot anything wrong with that either
23:01:21 <AnMaster> 3> efunge_fungespace:find_extremes([{0,0},{1,1},{2,2}], 1, 4, 1, 4).
23:03:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is there anything at -10,186 for you?
23:04:05 <AnMaster> according to my dump from the last bounds recalculation there is
23:04:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that (whatever it is) supposed to be there?
23:06:05 <Deewiant> Bah, looks like it's my bug and not yours
23:06:23 <alise> 12:48:10 <lament> how far you got multiplied by how much you suck
23:07:41 <Deewiant> Completely forgot about that stupid string-wrapped-around-the-void test
23:07:58 <Deewiant> Which puts a " at -10,186 indeed
23:08:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so that is the cause of all this?
23:08:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so how did ccbi pass it?
23:08:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I had to dump the entire set of non-space coordinate pairs to a file to find out
23:09:04 <AnMaster> that is one huge file and slow to search
23:09:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, kate didn't like it all being on one line either
23:09:18 <Deewiant> At least I didn't give you all of mycology ;-)
23:09:23 <Deewiant> Why'd you print it on one line
23:09:31 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:09:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because it ran out of my scrollback otherwise
23:09:49 <AnMaster> too lazy to do to file directly
23:10:05 <AnMaster> anyway, it would have been... 20374 lines
23:10:35 <AnMaster> [{28,166},{63,165},{46,116},{9,95},{52,85},{16,154},{132,147},{112,145},{113,119},{36,114},{16,41},{123,8},{138,174},{8,171},
23:10:36 <Deewiant> You could've dumped it to stdout then used sort | head -n1 :-P
23:10:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I would have had to grep for the output from it
23:11:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me if cfunge still is buggy
23:11:52 <AnMaster> also that BAD: no you didn't mange it *yet*
23:12:08 <AnMaster> I'm somewhat worried about that heisenbug I saw though
23:12:14 <AnMaster> probably some error when debugging
23:12:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:12:37 <Deewiant> If it only happened once forget about it, it /probably/ won't happen again ;-P
23:13:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it happened with a specific compile rather
23:13:27 <AnMaster> so I probably introduced some other bug when debugging
23:13:41 <AnMaster> (reverted the changes now anyway
23:14:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why would that " be put at -10,186 ?
23:15:07 <Deewiant> So that the X coordinate is minimal
23:15:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does this explain the -10,-10 btw as opposed to -10,-1 or whatever it was
23:15:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that another bug?
23:16:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and something in column -10 not properly cleared?
23:17:15 <AnMaster> I presume so, and I'm not going to debug it until you are 100% certain that it isn't your bug
23:17:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just wonder what strange algorithm ccbi is using that makes it behave like that
23:18:08 <Deewiant> Presumably some off-by-one type thing
23:18:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, off by -8/-9 rather :P
23:19:12 <Deewiant> Well, off by one could cause it to miss that -10,186 cell
23:19:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I like cons lists because of this, lot harder to make off by one list
23:19:19 <Deewiant> Since without that, -2 -1 is indeed correct
23:19:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then why the -10 in y as well
23:19:48 <AnMaster> as I said I'm not going to spend time debugging that now
23:20:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The -10,186 is only added after the y test
23:20:28 <AnMaster> BAD: after spacing top-left corner, y should report least point as ( -2 -1 ), not ( -10 -10 )
23:20:32 <AnMaster> BAD: after spacing top-left corner, y should report least point as ( -2 -1 ), not ( -10 -1 )
23:20:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think that might be an output error
23:21:05 <Deewiant> Eh? It just outputs the two cells pushed by y
23:21:32 <Deewiant> Like you said it's probably a bug when spacing the corner
23:22:02 -!- Libster has joined.
23:22:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you said -2,-1 was correct however. anyway I can't tell you were since I removed the dump code, and too lazy to re-add it
23:22:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:22:39 <Sgeo_> http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/my.barackobama.com
23:22:41 <Deewiant> But with the o test, it might not be after all
23:23:18 <Libster> i guess i'll go to a different channel then bye
23:23:20 -!- Libster has left (?).
23:23:26 <Sgeo_> Why would anyone bother learning Brainfuck?
23:23:50 <AnMaster> but that was one very confusing visit
23:24:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, tell me if you find any actual bugs
23:26:50 <alise> ignore Libster you idiots
23:27:23 -!- charlesq__ has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
23:27:29 <AnMaster> alise, a rather polite troll however :P
23:27:49 -!- lament has joined.
23:28:35 <alise> AnMaster: no he's just a retard from #not-math who followed fax here
23:28:45 <alise> he shuts up if you don't talk to him
23:29:14 <fax> not just libster
23:30:13 <alise> fax: base3 gave up
23:30:35 <Sgeo_> Oooh, there's a mathoverflow.com
23:30:59 <fax> Sgeo mathoverflow is for reseach level math though
23:31:10 <Sgeo_> Yeah, just saw that in the FAQ
23:31:25 <alise> It's not mathematics.
23:31:37 <alise> mathoverflow is nice.
23:32:38 <alise> even though i understand like 0.0001% of the qs there
23:32:42 <Sgeo_> Stack Exchange is proprietary?
23:33:14 * pikhq tries to convince himself to write more of this code.
23:33:17 <alise> it's atwood and spolsky
23:33:25 <alise> the two biggest retards ever to exist in programming
23:33:46 * pikhq is not doing too well at that.
23:33:55 <alise> "How to write IFELSE as mathematic equation?"
23:34:22 <pikhq> alise: ... *What?*
23:34:41 <alise> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/18696/how-to-write-if-else-as-mathematic-equation
23:34:43 <alise> some retard being idiotic
23:34:47 <AnMaster> <Sgeo_> Stack Exchange is proprietary? <-- I read that as "stock" first
23:36:36 * Sgeo_ once thought about problems like that >.>
23:36:56 <fax> lol it must be trolling
23:37:10 <Sgeo_> I can easily imagine asking that sort of question
23:37:31 <alise> AnMaster is so horrible to sgeo \o/
23:37:44 <AnMaster> alise, so are you too a lot of the time :P
23:38:17 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:38:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not lined up here at all
23:38:42 <Deewiant> Lined up with the _, not the o
23:38:49 <alise> it's a person not a bot
23:38:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that lines up one space after the .
23:38:59 <Deewiant> alise: A script, a bot, same difference
23:38:59 <alise> it's lined up in mirc style names
23:39:02 <alise> which most people use
23:39:06 <alise> xchat is just stupid like that
23:39:12 <alise> Deewiant: not right-aligned
23:39:25 <fizzie> Also ircii-style, irssi-style, I'd say.
23:39:32 <Deewiant> The \o/ was aligned properly at the o, but the o_. wasn't
23:39:33 * Sgeo didn't even realize you were messing with my
23:39:41 <Deewiant> Unless it's meant to be at the _
23:39:52 <alise> it is meant to be at the _
23:40:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:40:31 <fizzie> \_/ looks quite headless.
23:40:57 <Sgeo> "Since jsMath does take some time to render mathematical markup (for some people it's quite slow), please consider using basic HTML and HTML symbols for simple formulas whenever possible,"
23:41:19 <Sgeo> Can't they render it on the server and serve an im.. oh, actually, just because MediaWiki does that, doesn't mean it's a good idea
23:42:05 <Sgeo> I'd imagine though that some people might have JS disabled but still be able to view images
23:42:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I use right aligned, so it fails to line up here
23:43:22 <Deewiant> Right, I don't know of any other that does that
23:43:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well my erc setup does too
23:44:00 <AnMaster> but was using xchat because of dcc (which erc doesn't support)
23:44:04 <Deewiant> I'd set up irssi to do it if I knew how
23:44:17 <Sgeo> If I were younger, I'd mindboggle at SQL Injection
23:44:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: LimeChat, at least some scheme of it.
23:44:53 <Sgeo> If someone showed me, without demonstrating, some SQL Injection, I'd say it's sily. Data obviously should not become code like that. It would take incredible stupidity
23:45:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, irssi can do it up to a fixed column
23:45:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also I guess some IM clients that do IRC too.
23:45:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where it overflows to the right
23:45:39 <ais523> hmm, people here probably have a good idea: which company would you all recommend I buy domain names from, and why?
23:45:39 <Sgeo> But it's common stupidity.
23:45:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice and long nicks are unusual
23:46:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: I think we discussed the details here not long ago.
23:46:17 <oerjan> <fax> "Why does the square of a sum of numbers equal the sum of each individual number cubed?"
23:46:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:46:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's a bit crappy though
23:46:35 <oerjan> i bet it's somehow really obvious if you have four-dimensional intuition :D
23:46:36 <fizzie> I also remember linking to some existing irssi themes that do it.
23:46:42 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:46:48 <Deewiant> I guess it's the best one can hope for with a console UI though
23:47:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: You could just truncate all nicks to, say, three characters.
23:47:23 <oerjan> like that intuition for sums of numbers = n(n+1)/2 using a triangle
23:47:34 <fax> I LOVE TRIANGLE NUMBERS!!!!
23:47:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh? I remember doing this years ago
23:47:50 <fax> T(n) = finite integral n
23:47:55 <Deewiant> I'd just be all ": foo" when I want to say foo to somebody
23:48:02 <Deewiant> And it'd be obvious from context
23:48:18 <oerjan> fax: that thing you quoted can also be shown with finite integrals, of course
23:48:29 <fax> oerjan, yes about 4D.. I think there would be an intepretation would be done in there
23:48:41 <fax> oerjan, I proved it using finite calculus :D
23:50:35 <fax> oerjan, I want to implement symbolic finite integrator
23:50:52 <fax> (and of course I would implement differentatiion as a subroutine)
23:50:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: 2009-06-17 -- and it was about the very same bot, and the term "mirc-style" was used, and so on. We certainly are a boring lot.
23:51:12 <oerjan> there's probably a way to carve up an n*n*(n+1)*(n+1) hyper-rectangle so that each part is a cube, and there are two of each i^3 size
23:52:04 <fax> oerjan, another thing I really want to do is make a 4D (or more D..) world that you can immerse yourself in :(
23:52:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, can you tell me *why* cross product isn't defined for anything but three and (according to wikipedia) seven dimensions.
23:52:05 <oerjan> start with 1^3 in two opposite corners, perhaps
23:52:09 <fax> like a computer game typ thing
23:52:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, if the answer is reasonably simple
23:52:22 <fax> because then we could intuit 4D+
23:52:37 <fax> we have programs to visualize negatively curved 3D space
23:52:39 <fax> but that's not enoough
23:54:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: i cannot say i really understand why it's defined for seven, so...
23:54:26 <fax> oerjan, I think it's because 7 = 8+1
23:54:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't know it before checking on wikipedia
23:54:30 <oerjan> except it probably has something to do with quaternions and octonions
23:54:44 <fax> the octonions book talks about it
23:54:53 <AnMaster> but yeah, why isn't cross products defined for most dimensionality?
23:55:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:55:07 * Sgeo doesn't understand quaternions, except that SL uses them to represent rotations
23:55:07 <fax> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/octonions/node2.html
23:55:30 <fax> Sgeo: there's not much to understrand, it's just a 4D number (like complex numbers are just 2D numbers)
23:55:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: well, you want it to be a _natural_ product, invariant under rotations
23:55:56 <fax> and I meant to link this
23:55:57 <fax> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/octonions/node1.html
23:56:06 <AnMaster> I don't really know quaternions, except I know what they are in theory and what they are used for
23:56:08 <fax> When Gibbs invented the modern notation for the dot product and cross product, Tait condemned it as a ``hermaphrodite monstrosity''. A war of polemics ensued, with luminaries such as Heaviside weighing in on the side of vectors. Ultimately the quaternions lost, and acquired a slight taint of disgrace from which they have never fully recovered
23:56:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: otherwise it's really ad hoc...
23:56:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, and why does this "desire" exclude some dimensionality?
23:57:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, but let me tell you can even normal vector product "feels" somewhat ad-hoc :P
23:57:35 <fizzie> To quote without understanding the wp pahe: "The nonexistence of such cross products of two vectors in other dimensions is related to the result that the only normed division algebras are the ones with dimension 1, 2, 4, and 8."
23:57:43 <AnMaster> I know it has it's uses though
23:58:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, what the heck does that mean
23:58:05 <alise> <ais523> hmm, people here probably have a good idea: which company would you all recommend I buy domain names from, and why?
23:58:10 <alise> decent & respectable with no shit
23:58:14 <alise> but not the cheapest
23:58:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: note that the natural vector product in 3 dimensions comes from matrix determinants iirc
23:58:44 * fax doesn't have a clue what matrix determinant is...
23:59:10 <AnMaster> fax, never read linear algebra
23:59:24 <AnMaster> I don't know *why* the determinant is defined as it is
23:59:37 <AnMaster> I just know how it is defined and how to use it
23:59:37 <oerjan> basically, if M is a 3*3 matrix with 3 rows v_1, v_2, v_3, then det M = (v_1 x v_2) . v_3
23:59:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: It also says even more complicatedly: "The cross product exists in dimensions 3 and 7 since one can always define a multiplication on a space of one higher dimension as above, and this space can be shown to be a normed division algebra. Such algebras only exist in dimensions 1, 2, 4, and 8, and if the product is derived for 0 or 1 dimensions it is a trivial product that is identically zero. It has been proved that it only exists in 3 and 7 dimensions.[2
23:59:58 <alise> oh, ais disappeared